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Is Waqar Younis an ATG in ODIs?

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SLcric123

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Many posters consider World Cups as one of the only ODI tournaments which matters the most.

However, Waqar didn't do well in odis and also had a short peak as well.

Is he an ATG in odis?
 
Waqar didn't do well in ODIs?

That's news to me.

Yes, he is an ODI ATG!
 
SLcric123 said:
Many posters consider World Cups as one of the only ODI tournaments which matters the most.

However, <B>Waqar didn't do well in odis</B> and also had a short peak as well.

Is he an ATG in odis?
Click to expand...

Apology, Odis WC.
 
[MENTION=291]junaid[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

First we allowed people forget the genius of the great Barry Freaking Richards and now we have someone questioning Waqar Younis' greatness.

Let's admit it. It's been a bad month for us 3 as the wisest men on the forum. Somewhere down the line we have indeed failed to pass our knowledge and we must take ownership for that.

Waqar is a legitimate great of the game and a revolutionary.
 
Of course, though his record in WCs prevents him from being considered as one of the top 5.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
[MENTION=291]junaid[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

First we allowed people forget the genius of the great Barry Freaking Richards and now we have someone questioning Waqar Younis' greatness.

Let's admit it. It's been a bad month for us 3 as the wisest men on the forum. Somewhere down the line we have indeed failed to pass our knowledge and we must take ownership for that.

Waqar is a legitimate great of the game and a revolutionary.
Click to expand...

Bhaijhaan, if you are gonna troll, at least try to be discreet.
 
Not many bowlers have even come close to matching Waqar's insane peak. His SR was on another level. Just for that reason alone he is an ATG.
 
He has taken 416 wickets @ 23.84 with a SR of 30.5-also has 13 five wicket hauls. So yes he is an ATG.
 
People forget there hasn’t been a bowler capable of producing what Waqar did for his first 39 Tests. 200 wickets on dead pitches.
 
ManFan said:
People forget there hasn’t been a bowler capable of producing what Waqar did for his first 39 Tests. 200 wickets on dead pitches.
Click to expand...

He was a far better bowler in tests than in ODI. Thread is about ODI so his test exploits are not relevant here.
 
Buffet said:
He was a far better bowler in tests than in ODI. Thread is about ODI so his test exploits are not relevant here.
Click to expand...

Yeah forgot about that.

But although he was prone to getting whacked on his off days, they were so far and far away from one another, he was always a threat in ODI’s.

Unlike Tests, where after his first back injury, he couldn’t bowl at the same pace and hostility. Nor could he go the extra mile and bend his back on flat decks.

And mind you, the 200 wickets were with the old ball.

He didn’t start with the new ball til the late 90’s.
 
ManFan said:
Yeah forgot about that.

But although he was prone to getting whacked on his off days, they were so far and far away from one another, he was always a threat in ODI’s.

Unlike Tests, where after his first back injury, he couldn’t bowl at the same pace and hostility. Nor could he go the extra mile and bend his back on flat decks.

And mind you, the 200 wickets were with the old ball.

He didn’t start with the new ball til the late 90’s.
Click to expand...

Agree with everything, but I think Waqar gets some undue brownie points by fans in ODI due to his test exploits. He had great peak in Test, but not in ODI.
 
Unfortunately I never saw Waqar in his peak. In the 90's I hardly followed world cricket and watched only Indian games. Waqar played very little against India and his bowling was ordinary in the 90's against us. So not sure how he was in the prime, his record suggests he was good but I don't have any memory of Waqar doing great against India, so can't really comment. His record against India in ODI's except for Pakistan & UAE is pretty ordinary. He also played only 26 matches against India out of 262 overall.
 
Performance in world cup is not mandatory for achieving greatness in odis.

Waqar is still an ATG in odis because his impact was huge towards the game. He was a revolutionary of reverse swing and was very famous for his toe-crushing yorkers.

It is not about World Cup but it is about having impact towards the game. But yes, he doesn't make it to top league for me because of not so good World Cup performance.
 
Performance in the World Cup is only one measure of a player's greatness, not the only measure. If that was all that mattered, neither Waqar nor Sachin would be ATGs.
 
if virat is an atg then waqar surely is.
World cups are not the only measure.
but Goat status can only be achieved if the player has minimum one good world cup.
 
Bilal7 said:
Performance in the World Cup is only one measure of a player's greatness, not the only measure. If that was all that mattered, neither Waqar nor Sachin would be ATGs.
Click to expand...

really????
the best batsman of the 2003 world cup,
india's highest run score in 2011 world cup even way after his peak .Atg innings in two semifinal against
biggest rivals.
Sachin was one amongst the greatest world cup players.
This is'nt even a comparison
 
Ab Fan said:
Performance in world cup is not mandatory for achieving greatness in odis.

Waqar is still an ATG in odis because his impact was huge towards the game. He was a revolutionary of reverse swing and was very famous for his toe-crushing yorkers.

It is not about World Cup but it is about having impact towards the game. But yes, he doesn't make it to top league for me because of not so good World Cup performance.
Click to expand...

I think this focus from WC takes away attention from Waqar's not so great career in ODI. People talk about his peak and forget that he didn't have any peak in ODI to start with.

Just to put my point, Makhaya Ntini was not in top league, but see his ranking trend and compare it with Waqar's ranking trend.

ntini.jpg

Look at Waqar's peak and look at Nitni's entire career. Can you call it it even a peak by any stretch of imagination? Still many fans just give undue credit in ODI for his test peak.

WC talk just takes away focus from his performance in ODI in general. Yes, he is famous for his toe crushing yorkers and I loved watching it. Qadir was instrumental in keeping leg spin alive in test format and Waqar bowled his toe crushing yorkers even in ODI, but purely based on performance neither Qadir makes it among the top bowlers in Test nor Waqar makes it in the top league in ODI.
 
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Buffet said:
I think this focus from WC takes away attention from Waqar's not so great career in ODI. People talk about his peak and forget that he didn't have any peak in ODI to start with.

Just to put my point, Makhaya Ntini was not in top league, but see his ranking trend and compare it with Waqar's ranking trend.

View attachment 81694

Look at Waqar's peak and look at Nitni's entire career. Can you call it it even a peak by any stretch of imagination? Still many fans just give undue credit in ODI for his test peak.

WC talk just takes away focus from his performance in ODI in general. Yes, he is famous for his toe crushing yorkers and I loved watching it. Qadir was instrumental in keeping leg spin alive in test format and Waqar bowled his toe crushing yorkers even in ODI, but purely based on performance neither Qadir makes it among the top bowlers in Test nor Waqar makes it in the top league in ODI.
Click to expand...

Good point actually. I think the fact that most of us haven't watched Waqar's whole career or his peak days make us believe on what the perception is actually.

You are right here. Waqar wasn't as great in One-days as he was in tests.
 
Waqar is not an ATG in any format.

His record is very poor against strong batting lineups. Did not have a single good World Cup. Was clueless when batsmen went after him even in bilaterals. He was never the leader of the attack. Remember Sharjah final in 1993? Pakistan could not defend 284 and Waqar was demolished by Lara. Sanath's fastest 100? Jadeja' assault? All came when Wasim did not play and Waqar was supposed to lead the attack.
 
Buffet said:
Agree with everything, but I think Waqar gets some undue brownie points by fans in ODI due to his test exploits. He had great peak in Test, but not in ODI.
Click to expand...

He was not even a regular between 1996 and 2000 because he was just too expensive and leaked too many runs. I remember him getting hit by average batsmen like Andrew Hudson.
 
Buffet said:
I think this focus from WC takes away attention from Waqar's not so great career in ODI. People talk about his peak and forget that he didn't have any peak in ODI to start with.

Just to put my point, Makhaya Ntini was not in top league, but see his ranking trend and compare it with Waqar's ranking trend.

View attachment 81694

Look at Waqar's peak and look at Nitni's entire career. Can you call it it even a peak by any stretch of imagination? Still many fans just give undue credit in ODI for his test peak.

WC talk just takes away focus from his performance in ODI in general. Yes, he is famous for his toe crushing yorkers and I loved watching it. Qadir was instrumental in keeping leg spin alive in test format and Waqar bowled his toe crushing yorkers even in ODI, but purely based on performance neither Qadir makes it among the top bowlers in Test nor Waqar makes it in the top league in ODI.
Click to expand...

Didn't realize he wasn't in top 5 for most of his career. Why are his ODI stats so good again?
 
Bilal7 said:
Performance in the World Cup is only one measure of a player's greatness, not the only measure. If that was all that mattered, neither Waqar nor Sachin would be ATGs.
Click to expand...

Bro Sachin is the all time leading scorer in WCs, twice top scorer (1996, 2003) and once 2nd highest scorer (2011). Besides in Indo-Pak matches in WCs (biggest pressure test) he has 3 MOMs in 5 matches.

Coming to OP, yes Waqar is an ODI ATG but not tier 1 ATG like Wasim, Mcgrath. He was also a tad unlucky that he missed the 1992 WC during his peak period.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Didn't realize he wasn't in top 5 for most of his career. Why are his ODI stats so good again?
Click to expand...

He wasn't ranked in the top 10 for most of his career.

He took 1.5 wickets per match in ODI. You can't win too many matches with 1.5 wickets. SR becomes less important due to bowlers being limited to 10 overs in ODI. ER becomes a lot more important and he was very expensive. If you are very expensive then you lose lots of matches in ODI. His average may make it look like he was as good as some other big names in ODI, but closer look at ER tells a different picture.

ODI rankings do take account of ER and I think due to being very expensive he doesn't find place in the top 10 for long periods. Just my guess, some one else can elaborate more. I did see him bowl, and I won't really pick him as top few ODI bowlers for win matches based on what I remember seeing.

I haven't taken closer look at his stats in ODI recently, but you can probably check match by match to see if he won more or lost more matches for Pakistan. If he raised his game to perform better than others in the same match. Ratings do take account of relative contribution in matches, opposition strength and all that. So to exactly answer, you have to take a much closer look.

In short, he was a far better test bowler and had a real peak in the test format. PPers mix formats and start taking about his non-existent peak in ODI. He never had any peak in ODI format.
 
Sure he is, his greatest achievement was getting smashed to pieces by some Indian jobber in the most important game of his career
 
shaz619 said:
Sure he is, his greatest achievement was getting smashed to pieces by some Indian jobber in the most important game of his career
Click to expand...

Yes, unfortunately that was an epic phaintey, but in saying that, Wasim seemed to have "mysteriously" withdrew from that game.
 
Buffet said:
He wasn't ranked in the top 10 for most of his career.

He took 1.5 wickets per match in ODI. You can't win too many matches with 1.5 wickets. SR becomes less important due to bowlers being limited to 10 overs in ODI. ER becomes a lot more important and he was very expensive. If you are very expensive then you lose lots of matches in ODI. His average may make it look like he was as good as some other big names in ODI, but closer look at ER tells a different picture.

ODI rankings do take account of ER and I think due to being very expensive he doesn't find place in the top 10 for long periods. Just my guess, some one else can elaborate more. I did see him bowl, and I won't really pick him as top few ODI bowlers for win matches based on what I remember seeing.

I haven't taken closer look at his stats in ODI recently, but you can probably check match by match to see if he won more or lost more matches for Pakistan. If he raised his game to perform better than others in the same match. Ratings do take account of relative contribution in matches, opposition strength and all that. So to exactly answer, you have to take a much closer look.

In short, he was a far better test bowler and had a real peak in the test format. PPers mix formats and start taking about his non-existent peak in ODI. He never had any peak in ODI format.
Click to expand...

I already mentioned some examples when Wasim did not play and Waqar was taken to cleaners. He was never able to lead the bowling attack.
 
Waqar Younis only bowler with 10 Fifers in a calendar year (1990)

He Achieved this feat at the age of 19

wow. Legend
:bow:
 
freelance_cricketer said:
[MENTION=291]junaid[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

First we allowed people forget the genius of the great Barry Freaking Richards and now we have someone questioning Waqar Younis' greatness.

Let's admit it. It's been a bad month for us 3 as the wisest men on the forum. Somewhere down the line we have indeed failed to pass our knowledge and we must take ownership for that.

Waqar is a legitimate great of the game and a revolutionary.
Click to expand...

BHAIJAAN at all-time Peak Mode :))).
 
[utube]bJTEFcnU6oY[/utube]

Waqar Younis Vs Young Rahul Dravid (Full Over) Sahara Cup 1996
 
Last edited by a moderator:
He used to leak a lot of runs but was a genuine wicket-taker, and a revolutionary known for his yorkers and reverse swing.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
[MENTION=291]junaid[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]

First we allowed people forget the genius of the great Barry Freaking Richards and now we have someone questioning Waqar Younis' greatness.

Let's admit it. It's been a bad month for us 3 as the wisest men on the forum. Somewhere down the line we have indeed failed to pass our knowledge and we must take ownership for that.

Waqar is a legitimate great of the game and a revolutionary.
Click to expand...

I think that within six months of his international debut, at the 1989-90 Australasia Cup, Waqar reached the second highest peak ever seen in ODI cricket.

The highest peak was obviously Gary Gilmour at the 1975 World Cup in the Semi-Final and Final. No bowler has even come close to that peak. Wow! To make you forget that Lillee and Thommo were even playing!

At that Australasia Cup, alongside Wasim Akram, Waqar took:

4-42
6-26
5-20
2-38

His combined figures were:

37 overs
3 maidens
126 runs
17 wickets at an average of 7.41.

And a strike rate of 13.06!
 
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Numbers are like that of an ATG but he never delivered on the big stage, big minus. Can still fit him in the elite category depending on how you set the criteria for that status, but he will come below a few others with worse stats.
 
Hard to explain to people, who have not seen Waqar live, on what a phenom he was. His sprint to the wicket was an unforgettable sight and then he hurled himself through full force. And end result was incredible control with extremely high pace. And he did this spell after spell.

Before Waqar, bowlers who relied on swing generally bowled at a slower speed and bowled primary out-swing. Imran Khan used to bowl in-dippers but did not pitch up as much as Waqar did. IK also bowled out-swing in his opening spell. Waqar, when he emerged, was mainly an in-swing bowler who targeted the toes of the batsman's to force them on the backfoot. And it was the speed that made him effective. Later when he lost his pace, he became a highly effective out-swing bowler. Throughout his career he pitched the ball up which meant he could go for runs. Under right conditions however, such as in England, he could be a very threatening ODI bowler. In places such as Australia, not so much. An ATG would be effective in all conditions.

I would have Waqar as number 3 in my Pakistani ATG fast-bowler ahead of Shoaib Akhtar. Unlike Shoaib, Waqar made most of his talent. From first spell in the day to the last, he bowled with the same energy and commitment and always gave all. Shoaib was effective especially during early part of his career but he always put his ego ahead of team goals and sadly for Pakistan never came close to fulfilling his potential.
 
All the greats have off-days and Waqar was no different.

What a bowler, match-winner, an all-time great.

I remember being in Sharjah in 1991 for the tri-series versus West Indies and India, and Waqar was brilliant.

Watching him charging in, the run-up, the bowling action, the follow through. What a champion.
 
Srtfan said:
[utube]bJTEFcnU6oY[/utube]

Waqar Younis Vs Young Rahul Dravid (Full Over) Sahara Cup 1996
Click to expand...

if you start choosing single instances then ATG like Macgrath will have an off day against Moin khan and Razzaq.It proves nothing.
 
One of the two most destructive ODI bowlers, with Starc

An absolute no-brainer ATG
 
I feel sad that this thread exists.

Where has respect gone from cricket? A gentlemen's game.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
I feel sad that this thread exists.

Where has respect gone from cricket? A gentlemen's game.
Click to expand...

Over the whole career the stats say yes, but not for me. At the start he was brilliant, injury set him back and he was never really the same bowler. He was still good after the injury but when the pressure was on in WCs he failed to deliver.
 
Saj said:
All the greats have off-days and Waqar was no different.

What a bowler, match-winner, an all-time great.

I remember being in Sharjah in 1991 for the tri-series versus West Indies and India, and Waqar was brilliant.

Watching him charging in, the run-up, the bowling action, the follow through. What a champion.
Click to expand...

Before the injury Waqar was a freak of nature but after the injury he wasn't the same, although he was still very good.
 
Those that never saw Waqar at his best don't know what they missed.

He was a sight to behold.

Those Yorkers, wow, just amazing.
 
Saj said:
Those that never saw Waqar at his best don't know what they missed.

He was a sight to behold.

Those Yorkers, wow, just amazing.
Click to expand...

I remember the 1st time I saw him in England was the game against Northampton in the Natwest trophy and just the excitement of real fast bowler, bowling at the speed of light was something else.
 
Buffet said:
He wasn't ranked in the top 10 for most of his career.

He took 1.5 wickets per match in ODI. You can't win too many matches with 1.5 wickets.
Click to expand...

This is such a laughable take and I'm surprised it's coming from such a good poster like yourself.

1.5 wickets per match is absolutely brilliant especially over the course of such a long career.

Waqar's 1.58 wickets per match is better than the following bonafide ATGs:

Murali - 1.52
Wasim - 1.41
Macgrath - 1.52
Warne - 1.51
Ambrose - 1.27
Pollock - 1.29
Hadlee - 1.37

Are you telling me all these bowlers weren't match winners? :))
 
Red Devil said:
This is such a laughable take and I'm surprised it's coming from such a good poster like yourself.

1.5 wickets per match is absolutely brilliant especially over the course of such a long career.

Waqar's 1.58 wickets per match is better than the following bonafide ATGs:

Murali - 1.52
Wasim - 1.41
Macgrath - 1.52
Warne - 1.51
Ambrose - 1.27
Pollock - 1.29
Hadlee - 1.37

Are you telling me all these bowlers weren't match winners? :))
Click to expand...

Now await some posters coming in to say Waqar's wickets were against bums and bunnies.
 
Bewal Express said:
I remember the 1st time I saw him in England was the game against Northampton in the Natwest trophy and just the excitement of real fast bowler, bowling at the speed of light was something else.
Click to expand...

I saw him bowling for Surrey at the start of his career. He was exceptional and helped Surrey win matches that they had no right to win.
 
Red Devil said:
This is such a laughable take and I'm surprised it's coming from such a good poster like yourself.

1.5 wickets per match is absolutely brilliant especially over the course of such a long career.

Waqar's 1.58 wickets per match is better than the following bonafide ATGs:

Murali - 1.52
Wasim - 1.41
Macgrath - 1.52
Warne - 1.51
Ambrose - 1.27
Pollock - 1.29
Hadlee - 1.37

Are you telling me all these bowlers weren't match winners? :))
Click to expand...

Starc has 1.91:broad
 
Wasim and Shoaib were better, former by a mile and latter quite comfortably. Even Amir if you take into account his record in ICC tournaments. I hope there comes a day when people stop rating JAMODI records, players like Kohli, Amla, Waqar get too much leeway despite their innumerable chokes.
 
Waqar is a legitimate ATG and one of the best bowlers the game has seen.
 
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