Japan's population shrinking as marriage and birth rates plummet

[sweep_shot]

While populations are exploding in some Asian and African countries, Japan is facing the complete opposite.

Concerning sign for Japan.

What do you think Japan should do? Have more immigration? Give Japanese people incentives to have children?

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

I'm not sure incentives usually work

The immediate solution is immigration but the medium to long term solution should be a shift in attitude and mindset

Though not sure shifting that mindset is realistic

How do you convince a population to go back to a more traditional family set up? Also, if the reason for the shift away from the traditional way is due to economic factors, how do you resolve that?

 

[ElRaja]

educate women and the fertitlity rate drops through the floor. its not the politically correct thing to say, but it's empirically true.

The family structure is built around mutual dependence. Yes, there are some exceptional cases where two people are together because they actually want to be despite not needing each other, but that is emotion-driven, and emotions are fickle. if women dont need men, why would they want to be committed to someone who always holds the threat of physical and emotional dominance and abuse over them, unless they truly qualify and vet who they want to be with, which means a large chunk of men get thrown out the pool of potential partners. that's before u take into account economic and other factors in partner selection.

japanese will never allow mass immigration, they tried to let ethnic japanese in from brazil, and even that backfired massively. japanese have their own culture, for better or worse they will stick to it.

 

[The_KING]

That is what happens when you go away from the natural family structure.

 

[sweep_shot]

I'm not sure incentives usually work

The immediate solution is immigration but the medium to long term solution should be a shift in attitude and mindset

Though not sure shifting that mindset is realistic

How do you convince a population to go back to a more traditional family set up? Also, if the reason for the shift away from the traditional way is due to economic factors, how do you resolve that?

They don't seem very immigration-friendly.

It is definitely a catch-22 situation for them.

"Japan's population is projected to shrink significantly, potentially halving by the end of the century due to a declining birth rate and an aging population. The population, which peaked at 128 million in 2008, is now in decline and is projected to fall to around 63 million by 2100, according to CBS News and the East Asia Forum."

 

[sweep_shot]

educate women and the fertitlity rate drops through the floor. its not the politically correct thing to say, but it's empirically true.

The family structure is built around mutual dependence. Yes, there are some exceptional cases where two people are together because they actually want to be despite not needing each other, but that is emotion-driven, and emotions are fickle. if women dont need men, why would they want to be committed to someone who always holds the threat of physical and emotional dominance and abuse over them, unless they truly qualify and vet who they want to be with, which means a large chunk of men get thrown out the pool of potential partners. that's before u take into account economic and other factors in partner selection.

japanese will never allow mass immigration, they tried to let ethnic japanese in from brazil, and even that backfired massively. japanese have their own culture, for better or worse they will stick to it.

That is what happens when you go away from the natural family structure.

Agree.

When you move away from natural ways (i.e., traditional family structure), bad things can happen.

A balance is needed.

 

[The_KING]

Agree.

When you move away from natural ways (i.e., traditional family structure), bad things can happen.

A balance is needed.

In Islam, marriage and having children is seen as a blessing. But in a lot of these non Muslim countries, it is seen as a hindrance by feminists and liberals to a woman’s career. And the fact that most of these non Muslims countries accept LGBTQ as normal, so no wonder the population is declining in countries like Japan.

If it weren’t for immigration, the population in countries like America, UK, Canada and other such western countries will also be on a decline.

 

[IndoorCricket]

The culture of DINK ( double income and no kids) and raising living costs are major contributing factors for this. Our forefathers were able to afford a good house and able to provide to their kids based on a single source of income.

Now a days even with double income you will be barely able to pay rent and get try the month.

This is not limited to Japan. I believe US also facing this issue with few other countries.

I don't see this getting better. AI is eating the world, there is a correction in jon markets. You are disposable for your company. People are not ready to risk it with having kids.

 

[IndoorCricket]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1918840576834781667

 

[Red-Indian]

We can relook at this in a hundred years or so but on the whole, this is pretty great news. World population is expected to grow to about 10 odd billion by 2080 and start flatlining and then slowly declining.

If we get back to current numbers by 2125, that's pretty good going.

The odd culture like Japan will be endangered but some culture is always endangered.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

educate women and the fertitlity rate drops through the floor. its not the politically correct thing to say, but it's empirically true.

The family structure is built around mutual dependence. Yes, there are some exceptional cases where two people are together because they actually want to be despite not needing each other, but that is emotion-driven, and emotions are fickle. if women dont need men, why would they want to be committed to someone who always holds the threat of physical and emotional dominance and abuse over them, unless they truly qualify and vet who they want to be with, which means a large chunk of men get thrown out the pool of potential partners. that's before u take into account economic and other factors in partner selection.

japanese will never allow mass immigration, they tried to let ethnic japanese in from brazil, and even that backfired massively. japanese have their own culture, for better or worse they will stick to it.

Don't you think this is a real doom and gloom scenario that only affects a certain percentage of women?

I think the concept of mutual dependence still exists - it is just different to what it was before. Men and women still need each other for physical and emotional needs as much as ever. Emotions aren't all fickle. Human beings need love,care and companionship.

However the difference is that in traditional relationships the dependence was women will raise the kids and men will do all the work away from home. Now the balance is shifted - we still depend on each other but in most marriages I see the deal is that we will both work together for joint goals and to make sure our children have everything they need. For a short time the balance shifts when women give birth but then it transitions again when they re-enter the workplace. If both parties are happy and comfortable with this arrangement that neither is overly dominant, and that they are both responsible for all spheres of family life then it works very well.

This population collapse is unique to the Japanese for some weird cultural issues that are difficult to articulate. You can see it when you go there but it's hard to describe. They have a weird outlook on life.

 

[sweep_shot]

In Islam, marriage and having children is seen as a blessing. But in a lot of these non Muslim countries, it is seen as a hindrance by feminists and liberals to a woman’s career. And the fact that most of these non Muslims countries accept LGBTQ as normal, so no wonder the population is declining in countries like Japan.

If it weren’t for immigration, the population in countries like America, UK, Canada and other such western countries will also be on a decline.

Yes. West could've faced similar issues. But, west is importing a lot of immigrants. So, their populations shouldn't decline like the Japanese are facing.

 

[Mockingbird]

In Islam, marriage and having children is seen as a blessing. But in a lot of these non Muslim countries, it is seen as a hindrance by feminists and liberals to a woman’s career. And the fact that most of these non Muslims countries accept LGBTQ as normal, so no wonder the population is declining in countries like Japan.

If it weren’t for immigration, the population in countries like America, UK, Canada and other such western countries will also be on a decline.

Is that something to be proud about? Popping out children while living in squalor? What would an educated person prefer- DINK or children they can’t afford to feed?

 

[KB]

The family structure is built around mutual dependence. Yes, there are some exceptional cases where two people are together because they actually want to be despite not needing each other, but that is emotion-driven, and emotions are fickle. if women dont need men, why would they want to be committed to someone who always holds the threat of physical and emotional dominance and abuse over them, unless they truly qualify and vet who they want to be with, which means a large chunk of men get thrown out the pool of potential partners. that's before u take into account economic and other factors in partner selection.

Interestingly, a couple of months ago I heard Alice Evans - an academic in the UK - make an argument along these lines in a podcast. She argued that the big change is not with couples having fewer children but with the rise of singles. It has increasingly become socially acceptable to be single. Women can be more selective. In her words:

“In societies where men and women’s earnings are converging and cultural obligations are fading, relationship formation increasingly depends on LOVE! As singledom rises, it becomes broadly accepted. Free from stigma and economic dependency, people can be more selective about their partners.

Yet compatibility can prove elusive. Men and women who are shy, introverted, boring, aggressive, violent, manipulative, deceitful, unfaithful, or ideologically polarised may ultimately call it quits. The sources of friction are wide-ranging - from personality mismatches to ideological divides. And after perennial disappointments, some may opt out. Without a loving partner, they may hesitate to procreate alone.”

She goes on to speculate the rise of smart phone ownership which facilitates personalised online entertainment is also having a detrimental impact in the forming of relationships.

Her argument can be read here:
https://www.ggd.world/p/why-is-fertility-collapsing-globally

Alternatively, if you prefer podcasts, you can listen to her argument here:
https://www.ft.com/content/5b2c0df4-6515-4678-a650-74f2f3f77d60

 

[TSA321]

Japan isn't even the worst county in the region for this; South Korea has it much worse than them.

South Korea's falling birthrate could see its last citizen die in 2750

The country has registered yet another sharp fall in birthrates last year with the average women having on average 0.72 offspring in their lives. It is the lowest since records began 54 years ago

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ElRaja]

@DeadlyVenom, you are totally right. I'm not gonna say that healthy balance does not exist—it certainly does—but you hit the nail on the head with balance. What I've seen is that in couples where the balance is thrown out of whack, and especially in cases where the woman starts earning more than the man, the expectation that the man may take a less dominant role in the relationship ends up creating a lot of friction.

i was a little kid, and i didnt clock it at the time, but i was sitting at home doing nothing and my grandma came up to and said "mard lok ghaar dai bahar changai lagdai nai", men look good outside the house, now i know she was just teasing me, but this is a generalisation with some truth to it, women respect men who are working and grinding, however when the roles are reversed, even if they are the ones to ask the man to take a more of the supporting role in the family structure, they will start to resent the man.

and my final point is the most uncomfortable one, because ultimately its not right, but economic mutual dependence ensured marriages lasted, even when women were being abused, or exploited. with balance theres no reason for a women to put up with all that rubbish, and divorce rates sky rocket. when you know marriage isnt the ultimate till death do us part, then the propensity to have children drops too.

you are fundamentally right, but id argue that even if that is the standard, not the exception, the exceptional is growing by the day.

@KB i agree with that, although even among couples i see a lot not having kids. i know two couples who have been together for 10 years with no kids. and as far as i know, no immediate interest in having kids. i agree on the smart phone thing, its far too easy to get distracted and ignore people, and its far too easy to compare yourself to others, and finally far too easy to assume that just because you find an echo chamber online to feel comfortable in, that you'll get that with friends or partners in real life, when real life is about forming relationships despite differences.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

@DeadlyVenom, you are totally right. I'm not gonna say that healthy balance does not exist—it certainly does—but you hit the nail on the head with balance. What I've seen is that in couples where the balance is thrown out of whack, and especially in cases where the woman starts earning more than the man, the expectation that the man may take a less dominant role in the relationship ends up creating a lot of friction.

i was a little kid, and i didnt clock it at the time, but i was sitting at home doing nothing and my grandma came up to and said "mard lok ghaar dai bahar changai lagdai nai", men look good outside the house, now i know she was just teasing me, but this is a generalisation with some truth to it, women respect men who are working and grinding, however when the roles are reversed, even if they are the ones to ask the man to take a more of the supporting role in the family structure, they will start to resent the man.

and my final point is the most uncomfortable one, because ultimately its not right, but economic mutual dependence ensured marriages lasted, even when women were being abused, or exploited. with balance theres no reason for a women to put up with all that rubbish, and divorce rates sky rocket. when you know marriage isnt the ultimate till death do us part, then the propensity to have children drops too.

you are fundamentally right, but id argue that even if that is the standard, not the exception, the exceptional is growing by the day.

@KB i agree with that, although even among couples i see a lot not having kids. i know two couples who have been together for 10 years with no kids. and as far as i know, no immediate interest in having kids. i agree on the smart phone thing, its far too easy to get distracted and ignore people, and its far too easy to compare yourself to others, and finally far too easy to assume that just because you find an echo chamber online to feel comfortable in, that you'll get that with friends or partners in real life, when real life is about forming relationships despite differences.

You are right too - I have seen this happen in scenarios where the male is really career focussed himself and then gets jealous when wife starts to earn more. So two really smart and capable professionals will generate some friction when female starts to earn more than the male. If the male knows that he can't keep up economically at the start then this sort of jealousy doesn't kick in.

I am straying a bit from the thread topic but many of the issues you have described seem to be issues with men being able to deal with educated women, rather than stemming from fertility rate dropping when women get educated.

 

[ElRaja]

You are right too - I have seen this happen in scenarios where the male is really career focussed himself and then gets jealous when wife starts to earn more. So two really smart and capable professionals will generate some friction when female starts to earn more than the male. If the male knows that he can't keep up economically at the start then this sort of jealousy doesn't kick in.

I am straying a bit from the thread topic but many of the issues you have described seem to be issues with men being able to deal with educated women, rather than stemming from fertility rate dropping when women get educated.

two sides of the same coin id say, if men are jealous and insecure, its unlikely to create an environment where a woman would want to have a kid with him.

 

[Red-Indian]

I'll repeat....most of what you guys are wringing your hands about on this thread seems cause for celebration to me. A steady stabilisation and decline in population at current trends is great news for about the next hundred years.

If after a hundred years, educated, independent women are still unwilling to have children or if they do, are unwilling to have more than one because men are unwilling to take an equal burden, we might have to think about alternate solutions. We'll have to be creative - there'll be some technological ideas (may seem dystopian to some) and some non-technological ones - in terms of societal structures (multi-parent families? polygamy/polyandry, group children rearing etc.), economic incentives etc.

I think this is solvable if put our collective minds to it. We aren't willing to because it isn't a serious problem yet and won't be one for a long while.

 

[globetrotter]

Japan have large number of Indians working in all sectors. Japan government will give them permanent citizenship. Then population of Japan will definitely increase

 

[Bhaijaan]

Extreme capitalism tends to hit the lower middle class the hardest. In countries like Bharat, this segment grew up watching their parents and grandparents enjoy a simpler, more secure life with affordable housing, low cost of living, and large close-knit families. Fast forward to 2025, and the scenario has changed drastically. Today’s lower middle class in metros can no longer afford a home of their own. Yet, when it comes to lifestyle choices, they have been socially conditioned to aspire to upper middle-class standards, buying cars, dining out frequently etc that aren't financially sustainable. Also a lot of new age couples want to be "ideal parents" and give their kids everything that they didn't have. They're further burning their pockets by sending their children to expensive private schools, buying those iPads and doing international vacations so their kid can feel their parents did something for him.

On the other hand, couples who embrace a simpler lifestyle, are ok to send their kids to cheaper govt schools, avail cheaper healthcare at govt hospitals etc are happily raising large families because they are not burdening themselves with expectations to achieve a stand of living they aspire so badly.

 

[karthikc]

In Islam, marriage and having children is seen as a blessing. But in a lot of these non Muslim countries, it is seen as a hindrance by feminists and liberals to a woman’s career. And the fact that most of these non Muslims countries accept LGBTQ as normal, so no wonder the population is declining in countries like Japan.

If it weren’t for immigration, the population in countries like America, UK, Canada and other such western countries will also be on a decline.

These gay parades in countries like Israel have following like the rush in Kumbh Mela..no wonder AIDS is widespread i western world