Jason Holder - The mindset of a champion and what Pakistan can learn

[Convict]

Yes he got absolutely smashed. 95 runs from his last 5 overs and 64 from his last 2 overs.

He bowled rubbish and couldn't land the ball where he needed to.

But he's a young 23 year old fast bowlers who has just started his international career. He's not the first young bowler to fall apart when facing the onslaught of someone like de Villiers. He won't be the last.

What is important is not that he got smashed at the end but is the fact that he backed himself. Holder knew how well de Villiers was batting and knew perfectly well what de Villiers could do. As Captain, Holder could have thrown the responsibility to someone else and kept his nice figures.

But he didn't. Holder took responsibility to do what the team needed. Ignore the fact that this time he failed, that isn't important. The first step to succeed is to actually back yourself to do what is required.

How many teams, when Pakistan (or a few other teams - including the West Indies) are in strife and they need a player to stand up, does a player actually put up his hand and decide to stand up and take responsibility for the team?

Not very often. Many players appear to bat to do what they need to do to keep getting selected. Compare it to Australia, New Zealand or even Ireland- players generally do what the team requires. Like with Holder it doesn't always work but hey, mediocrity is the avoidance of responsibility.

Holder will end up as a good player and although his Captaincy has happened way too early it's easy to see why he was entrusted with it. He decided to take the responsibility of finishing of the game (it didn't work this time) and when he went out an batted, when he could have been completely demoralised, he batted well and almost brought some respectability back to the West Indies. Compare this to the West Indies test side- Gayle doesn't care and Chanderpaul plays for the red ink.
Holder wants to embrace responsibility of dragging his team to victory and that is why he's the Captain.

Now look at Pakistan. There are always fights about the Captaincy and I expect there are vultures circling around, ready to swoop when Misbah retires. Everyone wants the prestige of the Captaincy but nobody has gone out on the field and decided to act like a Captain.

 

[Itachi]

i disagree. offering your head in the Guillotine is not always the smart move.

when he realised that abd was hitting him hard and he has absolutely lost the control, he should have handed the bowl to some other bowler who may do a better job.

bravery is good, but isn't always the logical step all the time.

 

[Convict]

James Faulkner is another good example. He's the definition of bits and pieces.
His bowling is not good enough to be selected as a specialist bowler in the Australian team (though he is). It wouldn't be good enough if we had a few more injuries.
His batting is not good enough to bat in the top six. Despite what averages suggest, the reason Mitch Marsh and Glenn Maxwell bat ahead of him is because they are better batsmen (Maxwell is admittedly unreliable) . As are Chris Lynn/Adam Voges/Callum Ferguson/any player who could reasonably be expected to come in to bat at 5-6 if there were injuries.

Faulkner does have a good record but he benefits strongly from only batting with the four fielder restriction.

When Faulkner made his test debut, Darren Lehmann and John Inverarity emphasised his character.
And this is what they mean by his character- when Australia are in trouble, Faulkner backs himself and takes responsibility of being the player to do what the team needs. He embraces the responsibility of winning the game and that is why he's more valuable than his ability.
If his abilities permit it he would be a good Captain.

 

[Convict]

i disagree. offering your head in the Guillotine is not always the smart move.

when he realised that abd was hitting him hard and he has absolutely lost the control, he should have handed the bowl to some other bowler who may do a better job.

bravery is good, but isn't always the logical step all the time.

It wasn't the smartest move correct and it didn't work.

But if you don't back yourself to succeed and want to throw the responsibility to a teammate, how will you ever succeed?

 

[Itachi]

It wasn't the smartest move correct and it didn't work.

But if you don't back yourself to succeed and want to throw the responsibility to a teammate, how will you ever succeed?

if you fail but the team won (or performed better), what's the harm? isn't that should be the main purpose?

i will give you an example. in t20 wc, against SL, UV played this role. He wasn't clicking, he was even failing to connect to the ball. yet, he tried to take the responsibility of increasing the rate yet, he failed again and again and missed the plot completely. had he retired, raina and dhoni could have taken the control much much earlier. but he completely destroyed the flow.

he was brave, but in the end, it did cost the team.

 

[Abdullah]

Yes-anybody would have gone at that stage the mood AB was in- but if he is the death bowler then he should front up- and it was heartening to see that he did- he will learn from it too

 

[Convict]

if you fail but the team won (or performed better), what's the harm? isn't that should be the main purpose?

i will give you an example. in t20 wc, against SL, UV played this role. He wasn't clicking, he was even failing to connect to the ball. yet, he tried to take the responsibility of increasing the rate yet, he failed again and again and missed the plot completely. had he retired, raina and dhoni could have taken the control much much earlier. but he completely destroyed the flow.

he was brave, but in the end, it did cost the team.

And if UV had decided to block it out what would have happened?

Sometimes you fail. Holder is the perfect example of that- he failed spectacularly.

But more matches are won than lost by players taking it on themselves to show responsibility and win a match than

 

[shah_1]

Is Ravi Rampaul injured, and if not why wasn't he picked ? Ravi bowls well at death overs, and this guy is utterly clueless.

 

[Watsupdoc]

I can see where you are coming from and especially given that really, it's in his last two overs that he really got hit for plenty. I guess he will learn from this and I hope this doesn't destroy his confidence.

 

[Convict]

Players without the ability to play at international level will be weeded out eventually.

Players with the ability but who take no responsibility will not be weeded out because they will perform when there is no pressure and against weaker opponents but they will always melt under pressure.

 

[Itachi]

And if UV had decided to block it out what would have happened?

Sometimes you fail. Holder is the perfect example of that- he failed spectacularly.

But more matches are won than lost by players taking it on themselves to show responsibility and win a match than

you need to learn when to back off. trying to be hero while putting the team in danger isn't the way to go. if you realise that you are not helping the cause, stop and let others do the deed. that's a greater sacrifice for the team. above ego and delusion.

 

[TNA]

He basically ran out of options and he knew the bowling combination got absolutely wrong. WI were a bowler short. Too many all-rounders not many specialists. Holder was paying for this mistake. It doesn't necessarily has to be bravery. It cold be guilt for not playing an extra bowler hence taking up the burden to continue bowling. Holder himself is all-arounder but dont know why lately he is acting like a proper bowler. His death bowling is awful. But yeah I get your point.

 

[Convict]

you need to learn when to back off. trying to be hero while putting the team in danger isn't the way to go. if you realise that you are not helping the cause, stop and let others do the deed. that's a greater sacrifice for the team. above ego and delusion.

If you are not good enough than the selectors should drop you.

These not good enough players are white noise. They get eliminated from the system before they play a meaningful number of games.

Icecream players hold a team back more

 

[Convict]

I'll admit [MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION]
Holder should not be bowling at the death. The heart is willing but he doesn't know how to bowl at the death.

But the attitude is important.

Who is going to be better at bowling at the death? The player who relishes the opportunity or the player who doesn't want the responsibility because it might ruin his bowling figures?

 

[Kianig89]

Agreed Holder could have easily done a Hafeez (Superover vs Aus 2012)

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Is Ravi Rampaul injured, and if not why wasn't he picked ? Ravi bowls well at death overs, and this guy is utterly clueless.

Did not even make the 30 man probables list.

 

[Anfield]

This is not World War I where captain has to lead his troops from the trenches. Holder should have used his brain and went for some other bowler. He was horrible, horrible and horrible. You don't get bravery points.

 

[MenInG]

Think telling us that being smashed by South Africans all over the park is some kind of an achievement is a little tenuous in terms of logic etc,

 

[Convict]

Think telling us that being smashed by South Africans all over the park is some kind of an achievement is a little tenuous in terms of logic etc,

It's not an achievement. He failed.

He's not up to bowling at the death.

But the whole attitude of backing yourself to do what needs to be done instead of running from responsibility is what matters.

There are plenty of players with the skillset to do what needs to be done who never do.

For an example of a limited player succeeding because he takes responsibility for doing the team thing- look at Faulkner in the third post of this thread.

And for an example of players with the ability failing- look at the Pakistan v Australia ODI last year where Maxwell took that wicket maiden in the last over to win the match.

That was not the fault of Irfan. It was the fault of the batsman (notably Afridi) who did not recognise that Australia were about to bowl out their main quicks and failed to take the responsibility to do what the team required and bat out the last few overs of Richardson and (Starc?) and then win the match.

 

[leatherface58]

He is a martyr and a martyr just needs a sword to fall on. In this case, it was a bouquet of machetes.

There is bravery and there is suicidal tendencies. This guy IMO crossed the line. But I hope he recovers soon cause he has been unfairly thrust a thankless responsibility and thankfully, he isn't being criticized too much.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I can't really disagree really.He was brave, I just wonder if someone else was captain they would have still bowled him after getting smashed for 34 in the previous over? Pakistan players are certainly less team oriented, you just have to look at how everyone wants to bat in the middle order rather than face the new ball.

 

[TNA]

I can't really disagree really.He was brave, I just wonder if someone else was captain they would have still bowled him after getting smashed for 34 in the previous over? Pakistan players are certainly less team oriented, you just have to look at how everyone wants to bat in the middle order rather than face the new ball.

I thought it was the other way round.

Younis and Hafeez certainly don't want to bat lower down the order they are always facing the new ball most of the time. Who are you talking here?

 

[Convict]

I can't really disagree really.He was brave, I just wonder if someone else was captain they would have still bowled him after getting smashed for 34 in the previous over? Pakistan players are certainly less team oriented, you just have to look at how everyone wants to bat in the middle order rather than face the new ball.

Bowling him in the last over was madness.

Mindset alone won't win you matches, you need the talent to back it up. But likewise talent alone doesn't matter when it counts- all the top teams have talented players.

Holder has the traits to be a leader but he should not be the Captain just yet and there really needed to be a senior player to stand up and tap him on the shoulder and ask if he's doing the right thing by bowling the last over.

But if the West Indian senior players actually ever took responsibility they wouldn't be in such a bad position

 

[Fire Bird]

I agree. I was thinking the same thing when he went for 30+ in the 48th over. I was thinking lets see what this kid is made of. If he had pulled himself off, I would have thought of him as running away when the heat is on. Even though it would have made tactical sense to give the ball to someone else, the game was practically out of reach for the WI. So I wanted him to show his mettle by bowling the last over. He can take away a lot of positives from this rather abject show in that he stood in the face of onslaught by a great player and took it like a man. Great players want the ball or bat when the heat is on.
Though I have to say he ran out of ideas at the death but this shellacking can only make hiim better. He will be better as he gets more experience. Moreover, he was excellent with the new ball. His figures were 5 overs 10 runs 1 wicket.
I also liked his attitude after the IRE game he kept it calm in the presser and that is key to moving forward. WI are still in the hunt with two wins and could just use this game as motivation to beat Ind.

 

[Itachi]

I agree. I was thinking the same thing when he went for 30+ in the 48th over. I was thinking lets see what this kid is made of. If he had pulled himself off, I would have thought of him as running away when the heat is on. Even though it would have made tactical sense to give the ball to someone else, the game was practically out of reach for the WI. So I wanted him to show his mettle by bowling the last over. He can take away a lot of positives from this rather abject show in that he stood in the face of onslaught by a great player and took it like a man. Great players want the ball or bat when the heat is on.
Though I have to say he ran out of ideas at the death but this shellacking can only make hiim better. He will be better as he gets more experience. Moreover, he was excellent with the new ball. His figures were 5 overs 10 runs 1 wicket.
I also liked his attitude after the IRE game he kept it calm in the presser and that is key to moving forward. WI are still in the hunt with two wins and could just use this game as motivation to beat Ind.

ok.... that is going too far.

this team is worse than hong kong. they just got lucky against pak and caught offguard.

 

[Fire Bird]

ok.... that is going too far.

this team is worse than hong kong. they just got lucky against pak and caught offguard.

Our team prior to this world cup was not great either. We made England look like Australia of fifteen years ago. We should never underestimate a wounded tiger. Also our group is very competitive and anything can happen.

 

[wasimjunior]

Yes he got absolutely smashed. 95 runs from his last 5 overs and 64 from his last 2 overs.

He bowled rubbish and couldn't land the ball where he needed to.

But he's a young 23 year old fast bowlers who has just started his international career. He's not the first young bowler to fall apart when facing the onslaught of someone like de Villiers. He won't be the last.

What is important is not that he got smashed at the end but is the fact that he backed himself. Holder knew how well de Villiers was batting and knew perfectly well what de Villiers could do. As Captain, Holder could have thrown the responsibility to someone else and kept his nice figures.

But he didn't. Holder took responsibility to do what the team needed. Ignore the fact that this time he failed, that isn't important. The first step to succeed is to actually back yourself to do what is required.

How many teams, when Pakistan (or a few other teams - including the West Indies) are in strife and they need a player to stand up, does a player actually put up his hand and decide to stand up and take responsibility for the team?

Not very often. Many players appear to bat to do what they need to do to keep getting selected. Compare it to Australia, New Zealand or even Ireland- players generally do what the team requires. Like with Holder it doesn't always work but hey, mediocrity is the avoidance of responsibility.

Holder will end up as a good player and although his Captaincy has happened way too early it's easy to see why he was entrusted with it. He decided to take the responsibility of finishing of the game (it didn't work this time) and when he went out an batted, when he could have been completely demoralised, he batted well and almost brought some respectability back to the West Indies. Compare this to the West Indies test side- Gayle doesn't care and Chanderpaul plays for the red ink.
Holder wants to embrace responsibility of dragging his team to victory and that is why he's the Captain.

Now look at Pakistan. There are always fights about the Captaincy and I expect there are vultures circling around, ready to swoop when Misbah retires. Everyone wants the prestige of the Captaincy but nobody has gone out on the field and decided to act like a Captain.

Superb thread.....Holder will go very far someone who is pretty limited. Real impressive today

 

[yadunoe]

He was brave and deserves credit he didnt bowl that badly and only one two bowls were off target ABDV was just in amazing form cant stop him .

 

[soso_killer]

I actually thought he was poor with his captaincy today, in fact the whole summer in SA.
He is not proactive enough and to passive.
Russel is their best bowler I would have brought him early when Gayle got a double strike and employ a slip in place.

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

64 runs from 2 overs, wow AB

Rubel Hossain has a new challenge, challenge accepted

 

[Saqs]

I see the essence of what Conman is trying to say and I agree.

The more disturbing thing was - where were the senior players when he was being smashed? Yes, he is the captain. But he is a young captain, and he was being taken to the cleaners. Not only is he young, but he is also inexperienced. It's not as if he had 100+ games of experience to fall back on.

I'd have expected a Gayle, Ramdin, Taylor, Sammy to put their arms around him and talk him out of what he was digging himself into.

You see this with Mahela and Sanga, especially in the early years of Mathews captaincy.

And yet, none of the experienced Windies players did anything of note to help out.

 

[world cup captain]

Hands down. I agree with [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION]

 

[Convict]

Good to see Holder go far.

 

[Haroon786]

Great point and I think the term of 'ice cream player' perfectly encapsulates many Pakistani internationals in the recent few years. They care far too much about keeping their place in the team and not doing more than that when it is required. The ones that immediately come to mind are Afridi and Asad Shafiq, both players with more than enough talent to succeed and become great players but yet have refused to take responsibility throughout their careers to buckle in and perform when Pakistan have needed them. What hurts most about them is that they're good enough to play international cricket but for their own individual reasons, have not been good enough to perform to a higher standard and become great players.

 

[Amjid Javed]

When holder was 1st made skipper he wasnt good enough to be in the side on merit if we are honest about things. But he has matured into a superb intelligent bowler, a very good lower order batsmen and intelligent captain.

Well done for hardwork hes put in.

 

[vandokkum]

Hats off to [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION] This was posted at a time when few people thought of Holder as anything more than a bits and pieces cricketer like Sammy. Amazing insight into his mentality that we have come to see more of in the last couple of years.

 

[gazza619]

What a turnaround. WI is one team which I have always happily supported. Glad WI have added weight to their game at a time when Pakistan and SL are playing like minnows.

 

[Varun]

Hope he can do a McCullum type role and drag the West Indies to respectability.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Hats off to [MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION] This was posted at a time when few people thought of Holder as anything more than a bits and pieces cricketer like Sammy. Amazing insight into his mentality that we have come to see more of in the last couple of years.

I agree. Very underrated post and still relevant (especially the Pakistan bit) now.

 

[fitCricFan]

He certainly stepped up when the Windies were tottering at 107/6 and lead from the front, scoring a double hundred ensuring that the game was headed only way, a win for his team. Good to see the Windies playing some hard cricket in a while and it can only be good for the game.

If the team is priming, then its at the right time with the world cup in a few months. As for the English, hope this drubbing helps them introspect and fix their gaps both in the opening pair and the middle order.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

.

Now look at Pakistan. There are always fights about the Captaincy and I expect there are vultures circling around, ready to swoop when Sarfraz resigns. Everyone wants the prestige of the Captaincy but nobody has gone out on the field and decided to act like a Captain.

Worth its weight in gold when I edited Sarfraz's name.

 

[Robert]

Holder was thoughtful and measured talking after the match, I like that.

 

[Ab Fan]

He has come a long way from that.

 

[Mamoon]

One hell of a leader. In my opinion, the most important cricketer to come out of the Caribbean islands since Lara.

He has united his players and showed them what it means to wear the West Indies shirt. When your captain plays with pride, the players naturally follow his lead.

Hopefully he will take West Indies to greater heights in Tests and ODIs.

 

[Hasan123]

What a turnaround. He has improved his game as well. If your leader is working and setting an example it inspires you as a player .

 

[Savak]

One hell of a leader. In my opinion, the most important cricketer to come out of the Caribbean islands since Lara.

He has united his players and showed them what it means to wear the West Indies shirt. When your captain plays with pride, the players naturally follow his lead.

Hopefully he will take West Indies to greater heights in Tests and ODIs.

To be honest, stability and faith in the players goes a long way towards making a team, in countries like the WI there is no hue and cry over wins or losses and players are not chopped and changed after every defeat. Most great teams before becoming good to great teams have had to go through painful transition periods where they have had to soak up defeats but in the process the players gained experience, became battle hardened, the captain learned more about his players, his team combination in the process.

The stability in team selection and sticking with a core group of 10-15 players has now paid off for the West Indies and the players have repaid that faith. I think as fans we also need to show the same patience with our team but looks impossible in a cricket mad country like Pakistan with so much scrutiny from fans, media and ex players.