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Jasprit Bumrah vs Junaid Khan in ODIs

babajee said:
Performances in ICC tournaments is a very important factor when rating a player imo and is a black mark on Waqar’s legacy.

I’m not just referring to CT final - Bumrah was underwhelming throughout the CT despite being India’s main bowler whereas Junaid ended up as the 3rd best pacer.

The reason no neutral will take Junaid over Bumrah is because Junaid has always played second fiddle to another bowler and is underrated even though he is one of the main reasons Pakistan beat India, SA in ODI series and won the CT.
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Yes but one tournament? He did very well in the World T20 overall which is also a ICC tournament, albeit a T20 one. Also he wasn't India's main bowler, Bhuvneshwar was. Anyways, his performance wasn't as bad you're trying to make it, he also had figures of 2-28, 2-39, 0-23. Again, I go by the stats without making vast generalizations.

Also, if Babar's T20 ranking, having played generally weaker teams is an indication of how good he is in the format, then why isn't Bumrah's #1 ranking in ODI's an indication of how good he is? I have the same standards of how I view rankings; they aren't perfect, since it doesn't account for the quality of the opponent, but there's some truth to all of them.

THAT is why no neutral will take Junaid over him, not because he plays second fiddle.

I still stand by my statement that he's close to Hasan and better than both Junaid and Amir.
 
WildSwing said:
How does bumrah having an odi average of 22 have a similar record to junaid khan who averages 29? Yoou are falling in your own trap :)))
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Because he filtered the result to non-minnows. But here's the funny part -

  1. He filtered Sri Lanka out as a minnow.
  2. He filtered Bangladesh out as a minnow.
But he kept Pakistan in the filters even though they were ranked below both sides for majority of Bumrah's career. :))
 
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Mamoon said:
Bumrah is leagues better than Junaid, a little better than Amir and on par with Hasan.
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No way, Bumrah is on par with Hasan. Hasan can single handedly knock away the opposition in the middle overs, whilst Bumrah is only exceptional at the death. Bumrah more often than not wastes the new ball and gets carted until the death overs where he is able to restrict the batsmen and pick wickets with his Yorkers.

Bumrah is a good bowler and definetly better than Junaid though.
 
Rishta Aunty said:
Yes but one tournament? He did very well in the World T20 overall which is also a ICC tournament, albeit a T20 one. Also he wasn't India's main bowler, Bhuvneshwar was. Anyways, his performance wasn't as bad you're trying to make it, he also had figures of 2-28, 2-39, 0-23. Again, I go by the stats without making vast generalizations.

Also, if Babar's T20 ranking, having played generally weaker teams is an indication of how good he is in the format, then why isn't Bumrah's #1 ranking in ODI's an indication of how good he is? I have the same standards of how I view rankings; they aren't perfect, since it doesn't account for the quality of the opponent, but there's some truth to all of them.

THAT is why no neutral will take Junaid over him, not because he plays second fiddle.

I still stand by my statement that he's close to Hasan and better than both Junaid and Amir.
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I’m comparing the two bowlers in ODI - and anyway Bumrah saab choked in World T20 too with that no ball.

I don’t believe in rankings. I just bring up the Babar number 1 T20 batsman argument when Indians are chest thumping.
 
babajee said:
Why do you only bring up rankings when they suit your agenda :)))
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Pakistan have been ranked #7 or #8 for most of the last 5 years. At one point, you were fighting to qualify for the World Cup 2019 along with West Indies.

So, how do you count them as a top-5 side in your filter?
 
BlackShadow said:
Pakistan have been ranked #7 or #8 for most of the last 5 years. At one point, you were fighting to qualify for the World Cup 2019 along with West Indies.

So, how do you count them as a top-5 side in your filter?
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Read the OP. I filtered out for non-minnows. Not top 5 sides.
 
babajee said:
I’m comparing the two bowlers in ODI - and anyway Bumrah saab choked in World T20 too with that no ball.

I don’t believe in rankings. I just bring up the Babar number 1 T20 batsman argument when Indians are chest thumping.
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That's good to know bud as long as you're consistent! I do believe that the rankings are a good indication of where teams and players stand; it's not perfect (Rashid is #1 having mainly played only associates) but it recognizes consistent excellence.

Anyways, I'd love to hear what other arguments you have for Junaid, but I've not seen a clincher yet to make me reconsider. But that's the beauty of debate for sure. Junaid is definitely not a bad bowler for sure and I want to emphasize that. It's just that Bumrah with Hasan, have been the most exciting fast bowlers to emerge in the past two years. One of the reasons why people don't seem to rate Bumrah is how inelegant his action is. But his effectiveness is not in question.
 
BlackShadow said:
Pakistan have been ranked #7 or #8 for most of the last 5 years. At one point, you were fighting to qualify for the World Cup 2019 along with West Indies.

So, how do you count them as a top-5 side in your filter?
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Actually Pakistan were ranked #9 in 2016. So much for Bumrah against Top-5 sides.

All this effort because you wanted to take Sri Lanka out of Bumrah's performances? Poor troll attempt this thread. :facepalm:
 
BlackShadow said:
Actually Pakistan were ranked #9 in 2016. So much for Bumrah against Top-5 sides.

All this effort because you wanted to take Sri Lanka out of Bumrah's performances? Poor troll attempt this thread. :facepalm:
Click to expand...

When did Bumrah play Pakistan... in 2017.

In 2016 Pakistan ODI team was different and deserved that #9 ranking.
 
babajee said:
Read the OP. I filtered out for non-minnows. Not top 5 sides.
Click to expand...

Ok, so Pakistan are non-minnows.

But Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are minnows despite being ranked way ahead of Pakistan in the last 5 years?

If this makes sense to you, then good luck with whatever you want to prove.
 
babajee said:
When did Bumrah play Pakistan... in 2017.

In 2016 Pakistan ODI team was different and deserved that #9 ranking.
Click to expand...

Pakistan was still a bottom ranked team when Bumrah played them in 2017.

Bumrah played Sri Lanka and Bangladesh when they were a mid-ranked teams.

You know what you are doing, don't you? :)
 
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BlackShadow said:
Ok, so Pakistan are non-minnows.

But Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are minnows despite being ranked way ahead of Pakistan in the last 5 years?

If this makes sense to you, then good luck with whatever you want to prove.
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Way ahead of Pakistan in the last 5 years :91:



Thanks for exposing your cricketing knowledge, or lack of.


Another one in the long list of chest thumpers.
 
Syed1 said:
Way ahead of Pakistan in the last 5 years :91:



Thanks for exposing your cricketing knowledge, or lack of.


Another one in the long list of chest thumpers.
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Bumrah made his ODI debut in January 2016.

Both Sri Lanka and Banlgadesh were mid-ranked teams then.

Pakistan was # 8 or #9.

This is how rankings stood for most of his career... So, do you see my point when I say that non-minnow filter deserves two sides ahead of Pakistan?
 
Bumrah is better than Junaid. But he isn't even in the same league as Hasan Ali. Indians need to put their bias away and also stop judging off the rankings.
 
Hasan123 said:
Bumrah is better than Junaid. But he isn't even in the same league as Hasan Ali. Indians need to put their bias away and also stop judging off the rankings.
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That much is clear.

There is no comparison between Hasan and Bumrah at this stage. Even if Hasan had worse stats.

Sometimes people need to use their eyes and cricket knowledge.
 
Hasan and Bumrah are second tier bowlers. They do not come near the class of Amir and Asif, not even near!!
 
Wait, so Babar is an over-rated batter because he performs only against West Indies and Sri Lanka. But Bumrah's exploits against Lanka should be given a lot of weight to prove he is a world-class bowler?

What's happening here?
 
Does anyone know why Junaid is the most hated bowler on PP? Even if he’s performing people want him out of the team :))
 
Junaid would struggle to get into AFG side.

Only some delusional posters here, not sure why, out of what love, ask for his merit-less selection.
 
Hawkeye said:
Junaid would struggle to get into AFG side.

Only some delusional posters here, not sure why, out of what love, ask for his merit-less selection.
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Would Umar Akmal get in?

What’s so bad about Junaid lol :)) I fail to see.
 
babajee said:
Would Umar Akmal get in?

What’s so bad about Junaid lol :)) I fail to see.
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I'm not quite sure what logic would bring Umar Akmal into a discussion between Junaid and Bumrah.

Regardless, what's bad about Junaid:

- Can't move the ball
- Only trundles - lost pace
- Bowls gun-barrel straight pies

Any batsman would start licking his lips at the prospect of Junaid bowling six pies in a row at him.
 
Hawkeye said:
I'm not quite sure what logic would bring Umar Akmal into a discussion between Junaid and Bumrah.

Regardless, what's bad about Junaid:

- Can't move the ball
- Only trundles - lost pace
- Bowls gun-barrel straight pies

Any batsman would start licking his lips at the prospect of Junaid bowling six pies in a row at him.
Click to expand...

Bumrah does the same with a bit more pace then :)
 
Rishta Aunty said:
Right now, Bumrah is definitely better than Amir and Junaid and competes with Hasan. They have different roles in the teams however; Hasan bowls in the middle overs while Bumrah is a death specialist. And both are outstanding at what they do.
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I respect that you try to be unbiased and neutral but may be sometimes you touch the other extreme in tryingg to become unbiased.

Can you please explain how is Bumrah better with new ball and in middle overs than Juniad?

Junaid is a much better bowler with the new ball (You can look at that spell to Warner in Aus, in against Ind in Ind in 2012) and in middle overs with reverse swing (CT 17 was a prime example)

While I agree that Bumrah till now has been pretty good at death overs but yet to see him tearing the batting apart with the new ball or with the reverse in the middle over.
 
Hawkeye said:
I'm not quite sure what logic would bring Umar Akmal into a discussion between Junaid and Bumrah.

Regardless, what's bad about Junaid:

- Can't move the ball
- Only trundles - lost pace
- Bowls gun-barrel straight pies

Any batsman would start licking his lips at the prospect of Junaid bowling six pies in a row at him.
Click to expand...

Dont remember that many sixes in CT 17 against him.

Also I guess there must be something in the ball in 2012 against Ind and in 2016 against Warner and in CT 17 against all top batsmen. :viru
 
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Bumrah is yet to take the any quality opposition by storm with his opening spell or even in the middle overs, yes he does well at death overs.
 
Titan24 said:
Bumrah is yet to take the any quality opposition by storm with his opening spell or even in the middle overs, yes he does well at death overs.
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He has only taken more than 2 wickets once against a top team.
 
Titan24 said:
I respect that you try to be unbiased and neutral but may be sometimes you touch the other extreme in tryingg to become unbiased.

Can you please explain how is Bumrah better with new ball and in middle overs than Juniad?

Junaid is a much better bowler with the new ball (You can look at that spell to Warner in Aus, in against Ind in Ind in 2012) and in middle overs with reverse swing (CT 17 was a prime example)

While I agree that Bumrah till now has been pretty good at death overs but yet to see him tearing the batting apart with the new ball or with the reverse in the middle over.
Click to expand...

Ah man, I'm not trying to be anything. I just call it as I've seen it. Point is that statistics don't lie, especially when combined with what you see live and what the experts say too.

I didn't say that Bumrah is better with the new ball or the middle overs than Junaid; I explicitly mentioned that he's a death specialist and overall is a better bowler than Junaid which I think is a pretty reasonably statement frankly. In fact, I don't really rate him that highly with the new ball. His action, lends itself to a hit-the-deck seamer rather than someone who can swing the new ball. He still gets success and keeps things tight, but is not going to run through sides like Bhuvneshwar or Shami might for India. Junaid, despite others faults, has a beautiful wrist position that lends itself wonderfully to early swing. Give him the right conditions and he can swing it around corners.

Junaid however can fall apart towards the end overs, as he has no outstanding trait to fall back on. He doesn't have a great consistent yorker, no excellent slower ball, no variation like the knuckleball, and no incredible pace to harry the batsman. Or a weird slingy, uncomfortable action that creates a natural angle that cramps the batsman up ala Bumrah.

Again with respect to Bumrah, he's got a very specific role that he does in the Indian team and he does it wonderfully. India pacers are mean to build up defensive pressure for the spinners to steal wickets by bowling tight overs. Running through sides was never the Dhoni Doctrine (Kohli might be changing things); strangulating them into making mistakes was. And he was very successful overall in moulding his bowling to do that.

I'd expect Bumrah to kick on from here, going by how he did in the South Africa tour in pitches that didn't seem built for him on first view. Overall though, taking Tests and ODI's into account, he's India's third best seamer after Shami and Bhuvneshwar. In ODI's and T20's alone, he's worth his weight in gold as matches are often won and lost in the 10 overs. I'd take Hasan over him though as I feel he's got a much more rounded skillset.

But if you were choosing an ODI XI right now, Bumrah would get into the team with Starc and Hasan as one of the 3 main seamers. I can only see Boult displacing him, depending on if there's any swing in the wicket.
 
Funny Indians are complaining that Bumrah's performances against the likes of the windies are being taken out...but can't handle them being included when talking about Babar.

I just wish Junaid can come back to full fitness.
 
Can someone tell me why Babar Azam is over-rated if he scores against West Indies and Sri Lanka, while all of a sudden Sri Lanka becomes a decent team worthy of discussion as soon as Jasprit Bumrah is mentioned?
 
Rishta Aunty said:
Ah man, I'm not trying to be anything. I just call it as I've seen it. Point is that statistics don't lie, especially when combined with what you see live and what the experts say too.

I didn't say that Bumrah is better with the new ball or the middle overs than Junaid; I explicitly mentioned that he's a death specialist and overall is a better bowler than Junaid which I think is a pretty reasonably statement frankly. In fact, I don't really rate him that highly with the new ball. His action, lends itself to a hit-the-deck seamer rather than someone who can swing the new ball. He still gets success and keeps things tight, but is not going to run through sides like Bhuvneshwar or Shami might for India. Junaid, despite others faults, has a beautiful wrist position that lends itself wonderfully to early swing. Give him the right conditions and he can swing it around corners.

Junaid however can fall apart towards the end overs, as he has no outstanding trait to fall back on. He doesn't have a great consistent yorker, no excellent slower ball, no variation like the knuckleball, and no incredible pace to harry the batsman. Or a weird slingy, uncomfortable action that creates a natural angle that cramps the batsman up ala Bumrah.

Again with respect to Bumrah, he's got a very specific role that he does in the Indian team and he does it wonderfully. India pacers are mean to build up defensive pressure for the spinners to steal wickets by bowling tight overs. Running through sides was never the Dhoni Doctrine (Kohli might be changing things); strangulating them into making mistakes was. And he was very successful overall in moulding his bowling to do that.

I'd expect Bumrah to kick on from here, going by how he did in the South Africa tour in pitches that didn't seem built for him on first view. Overall though, taking Tests and ODI's into account, he's India's third best seamer after Shami and Bhuvneshwar. In ODI's and T20's alone, he's worth his weight in gold as matches are often won and lost in the 10 overs. I'd take Hasan over him though as I feel he's got a much more rounded skillset.

But if you were choosing an ODI XI right now, Bumrah would get into the team with Starc and Hasan as one of the 3 main seamers. I can only see Boult displacing him, depending on if there's any swing in the wicket.
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Very good perspective. Key is the role in the team and the value of that player in the team. If a bowler fulfills that role consistently, he can be considered a successful bowler. Good point about Dhoni as well. He was always very good at man management and who would have thought Jadeja can be the best bowler of an ICC tournament and that too in England. Kohli is more aggressive and ruthless compared to Dhoni.
 
They are two different bowlers.

Between overs 1-35 Junaid is superior to Bumrah
Between overs 35-50 Bumrah is about 10x superior to Junaid
 
WildSwing said:
Based on cricketing acumen and having watched both bowlers
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WildSwing said:
We'll win the world cup with our top 3, our top 3 batsmen and our top 3 bowler :shh
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You make a lot of statements without backing them up at all; I took the effort to explain my thought process as to why I felt that Hasan would be better (versatility and swing being a major factor). What's your justification apart from cricketing acumen?
 
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[MENTION=146746]Rishta Aunty[/MENTION]

Aunty jee in your unbiased insight is there a better attack in world cricket than:

Amir
Hasan
Junaid
Shadab
Faheem
 
babajee said:
[MENTION=146746]Rishta Aunty[/MENTION]

Aunty jee in your unbiased insight is there a better attack in world cricket than:

Amir
Hasan
Junaid
Shadab
Faheem
Click to expand...

Thanks for asking me [MENTION=143344]babajee[/MENTION]!

That's a tough question; it's definitely up there as one of the most balanced, especially with the presence of two left-arm seamers and a cracking young leg-spinner. In my opinion in T20's/ODI's it's probably the best, especially from an options perspective; it's got early swing, lots of reverse, and an excellent spinner. The biggest drawback is the lack of a specialist death bowler; as pitches have become more and more flat across the world, it's become important to be good at defensive bowling. I don't think anyone else can run through sides like we can when it's our day. Simply to say, wouldn't exchange this bowling attack for any other in ODI's/T20's.

It's Hasan who's the X-Factor in ODI's actually; what he's achieved in such a short period is quite amazing. He's an attacking option in the middle overs, a phase of play where bowling teams struggle to do anything but contain. What is particularly impressive, is how little his action changes between his different deliveries. Taken Hasan out and that attack looks much less impressive. Australia/NZ don't have a gun spinner, SA struggled against India a lot, and actually India probably are next in terms of a balanced attack since they have an excellent death bowler (Bumrah), and two wristspinners (including Kuldeep who I REALLY rate, much more than Chahal who will get found out)

In Tests, I would say that it would struggle to match up to South Africa if the first choice is fit (Steyn, Rabada, Philander, Maharaj leaving out Morkel with his retirement), Australia (Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins, Steyn) and even India (Shami, Bhuvneshwar, Bumrah, Ashwin/Jadeja). Lots to prove for Amir, Hasan and Shadab in that format in particular. NZ are great in swinging conditions, but struggle in the subcontinent.

To summarize:
In ODIs/T20s: Best, or joint top
Tests: Lots to prove
 
Rishta Aunty said:
Thanks for asking me [MENTION=143344]babajee[/MENTION]!

That's a tough question; it's definitely up there as one of the most balanced, especially with the presence of two left-arm seamers and a cracking young leg-spinner. In my opinion in T20's/ODI's it's probably the best, especially from an options perspective; it's got early swing, lots of reverse, and an excellent spinner. The biggest drawback is the lack of a specialist death bowler; as pitches have become more and more flat across the world, it's become important to be good at defensive bowling. I don't think anyone else can run through sides like we can when it's our day. Simply to say, wouldn't exchange this bowling attack for any other in ODI's/T20's.

It's Hasan who's the X-Factor in ODI's actually; what he's achieved in such a short period is quite amazing. He's an attacking option in the middle overs, a phase of play where bowling teams struggle to do anything but contain. What is particularly impressive, is how little his action changes between his different deliveries. Taken Hasan out and that attack looks much less impressive. Australia/NZ don't have a gun spinner, SA struggled against India a lot, and actually India probably are next in terms of a balanced attack since they have an excellent death bowler (Bumrah), and two wristspinners (including Kuldeep who I REALLY rate, much more than Chahal who will get found out)

In Tests, I would say that it would struggle to match up to South Africa if the first choice is fit (Steyn, Rabada, Philander, Maharaj leaving out Morkel with his retirement), Australia (Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins, Steyn) and even India (Shami, Bhuvneshwar, Bumrah, Ashwin/Jadeja). Lots to prove for Amir, Hasan and Shadab in that format in particular. NZ are great in swinging conditions, but struggle in the subcontinent.

To summarize:
In ODIs/T20s: Best, or joint top
Tests: Lots to prove
Click to expand...

Sorry meant Lyon. Thoughts overall?
 
Usman Chadda said:
Wait, so Babar is an over-rated batter because he performs only against West Indies and Sri Lanka. But Bumrah's exploits against Lanka should be given a lot of weight to prove he is a world-class bowler?

What's happening here?
Click to expand...

Indian logic shining as usual.
 
Rishta Aunty said:
Thanks for asking me [MENTION=143344]babajee[/MENTION]!

That's a tough question; it's definitely up there as one of the most balanced, especially with the presence of two left-arm seamers and a cracking young leg-spinner. In my opinion in T20's/ODI's it's probably the best, especially from an options perspective; it's got early swing, lots of reverse, and an excellent spinner. The biggest drawback is the lack of a specialist death bowler; as pitches have become more and more flat across the world, it's become important to be good at defensive bowling. I don't think anyone else can run through sides like we can when it's our day. Simply to say, wouldn't exchange this bowling attack for any other in ODI's/T20's.

It's Hasan who's the X-Factor in ODI's actually; what he's achieved in such a short period is quite amazing. He's an attacking option in the middle overs, a phase of play where bowling teams struggle to do anything but contain. What is particularly impressive, is how little his action changes between his different deliveries. Taken Hasan out and that attack looks much less impressive. Australia/NZ don't have a gun spinner, SA struggled against India a lot, and actually India probably are next in terms of a balanced attack since they have an excellent death bowler (Bumrah), and two wristspinners (including Kuldeep who I REALLY rate, much more than Chahal who will get found out)

In Tests, I would say that it would struggle to match up to South Africa if the first choice is fit (Steyn, Rabada, Philander, Maharaj leaving out Morkel with his retirement), Australia (Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins, Steyn) and even India (Shami, Bhuvneshwar, Bumrah, Ashwin/Jadeja). Lots to prove for Amir, Hasan and Shadab in that format in particular. NZ are great in swinging conditions, but struggle in the subcontinent.

To summarize:
In ODIs/T20s: Best, or joint top
Tests: Lots to prove
Click to expand...

Wow another great post lol :)

Yeah I was asking you about ODI cricket pretty much. I don’t think we will ever have a settled test attack if we carry on playing as little test cricket as we do.

I still have hopes from Amir and Junaid to get back to their best. Junaid needs to regain the pace he lost to injury and Amir needs to start pitching the ball up and searching for wickets.
 
babajee said:
Wow another great post lol :)

Yeah I was asking you about ODI cricket pretty much. I don’t think we will ever have a settled test attack if we carry on playing as little test cricket as we do.

I still have hopes from Amir and Junaid to get back to their best. Junaid needs to regain the pace he lost to injury and Amir needs to start pitching the ball up and searching for wickets.
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Thanks jee!

I actually am pretty annoyed at how much importance we're giving to T20's. This reminds me of how we used to prioritize ODIs over Tests in the 90s. Most of the big sides look at T20 as much less important than other formats which is what we should be doing too.

Plus another point is that there's now a negative correlation (especially for Spinner), between how good they are at defensive bowling and how they do in Tests. Ashwin and Jadeja are great examples; as they became better Test bowlers, their ODI/T20 games collapsed. I'm worried about Shadab's development especially as he already has a propensity to overuse the googly.

For Amir, he needs to bowl fuller which should be an easy fix; for Junaid, I sadly don't think he will get back to the sensation he was when he burst onto the scene.
 
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Rishta Aunty said:
Thanks jee!

I actually am pretty annoyed at how much importance we're giving to T20's. This reminds me of how we used to prioritize ODIs over Tests in the 90s. Most of the big sides look at T20 as much less important than other formats which is what we should be doing too.

Plus another point is that there's now a negative correlation (especially for Spinner), between how good they are at defensive bowling and how they do in Tests. Ashwin and Jadeja are great examples; as they became better Test bowlers, their ODI/T20 games collapsed. I'm worried about Shadab's development especially as he already has a propensity to overuse the googly.

For Amir, he needs to bowl fuller which should be an easy fix; for Junaid, I sadly don't think he will get back to the sensation he was when he burst onto the scene.
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Yeah Junaid probably won’t get back to that 2012-13 level but there were some good signs in the CT and the SL series after. He was struggling to touch 135kph in Australia but IIRC in the SL series he was consistently hovering round the 140 mark and even touched 146kph. But then he got injured again :(
 
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babajee said:
Yeah Junaid probably won’t get back to that 2012-13 level but there were some good signs in the CT and the SL series after. He was struggling to touch 135kph in Australia but IIRC in the SL series he was consistently hovering round the 140 mark and even touched 146kph. But then he got injured again :(
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that kink in his action has become more and more pronounced. That's worrisome for me.
 
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