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June 2017 to June 2019 - 2 long years

Saj

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The euphoria of the Champions Trophy win has been replaced by the doom and gloom of a very poor World Cup campaign so far in 2019.

So what's gone wrong? Where's it gone downhill and why?

This is by and large the same set of players that 2 years ago were on top of the world, yet at the moment look like they don'tknow where or when their next win will come.
 
So you disagree that the Champions Trophy was a fluke?
 
The problem was after winning the champions trophy final Pakistan and its players did not look to push on and improve. Also playing weaker oppopsations didn't help the cause either. By winning the champions trophy yes you were the best team at that tournament but that does not mean you were the best team in the word even at that you constantly need to work on your.

That was the period were the PCB should have tried to develop a better domestic and grass root system as well
 
Superstar syndrome, bad captaincy, poor team selection and awful team management.

Beating Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka and West Indies didn’t do us any good.

The signs were there but we didn’t want to see it.

Pakistan cricket is in a big mess.
 
These are the same players who will bring the trophy back on July 14 and then everyone will forget everything. People are just to fast to bash us, same happened in CT 2017.
 
The euphoria of the Champions Trophy win has been replaced by the doom and gloom of a very poor World Cup campaign so far in 2019.

So what's gone wrong? Where's it gone downhill and why?

This is by and large the same set of players that 2 years ago were on top of the world, yet at the moment look like they don'tknow where or when their next win will come.

Basically the Champions Trophy was an anomaly that did more harm than good in the long run.

The Champions Trophy win papered over the cracks. Players may have stopped working hard and improving believing that they could just wing it on the day. The Champions Trophy win was the worst thing to happen to Pakistan cricket.
 
These are the same players who will bring the trophy back on July 14 and then everyone will forget everything. People are just to fast to bash us, same happened in CT 2017.

I am not sure how they will bring the trophy back. They are out of the tournament pretty much. Unless you mean they will steal it from the cabinet and bring it back?
 
These are the same players who will bring the trophy back on July 14 and then everyone will forget everything. People are just to fast to bash us, same happened in CT 2017.
Bro we will have to be very lucky to sneak into the semis through the back door, cannot see luck favoring us tbh.
 
The euphoria of the Champions Trophy win has been replaced by the doom and gloom of a very poor World Cup campaign so far in 2019.

So what's gone wrong? Where's it gone downhill and why?

This is by and large the same set of players that 2 years ago were on top of the world, yet at the moment look like they don'tknow where or when their next win will come.

CT was a mirage, Pakistan was never good enough to sustain that run.CT everything went right for them and here everything is going against them.

They are not as bad as people are portraying them now but they never were good enough to be consistent side.

Pakistan top 3 is still very good, sometimes losing toss is best thing any captain can do for his team.CT 2017 losing toss was best thing which happened to Pakistan.
 
I am not sure how they will bring the trophy back. They are out of the tournament pretty much. Unless you mean they will steal it from the cabinet and bring it back?

They aren't, still can qualify if you look properly.
 
No we won't. You think nz will lose 4 matches out of 5. Even if they win 2, we'll be out due to our bad nrr

When you look who they are playing, they can lose all of their games.

England
Australia
Pakistan
West Indies
South Africa
 
I posted this is another thread but perhaps it is more relevant here:

Pakistan's 2017 Champions Trophy team would have lost a series to every team (excluding Sri Lanka and Bangladesh) in the competition in those conditions, but Pakistan won three successive matches against three better sides because everything went their way. It was something unique that will most likely never happen again, especially to Pakistan. Even against Sri Lanka, an inferior team, Pakistan completely bottled the game but luck favoured them again.

Nevertheless, it was a fantastic triumph and our fans had every right to rejoice it because it will go down as one of the most memorable moments in Pakistan history. Fluke or not, the trophy is now in Pakistan's cabinet. However, the problem was that our fans looked too much into that success and became oblivious to the glaring shortcomings of the team. Their heads were in the clouds and they thought they were now invincible. This attitude rubbed onto the players as well, who got cocky.

Our misplaced arrogance was particularly on display with respect to India. We were told that India is afraid of this fresh Pakistan team, and this new generation of Pakistani players, the PSL superstars like Fakhar, Babar, Shadab, Hasan, Faheem as well as Sarfraz and Amir etc. will not fear India anymore, and the Champions Trophy will be another "Miandad six" moment, and how it will prove to be a turning moment in the Pakistan-India rivalry.

The players reflected this attitude as well. Sarfraz claiming in a press conference that maybe India is scared of playing them and the way Hasan acted at the border showed the mindset of our players at that time.

All of those delusions were laid to rest in the Asia Cup, which was an extremely brutal reality-check. It was a longsword that was plunged straight into our hearts. An Indian team without Kohli came to the UAE and completely demolished a full-strength Pakistan side in two matches. Players like Hasan, Fakhar etc. completely lost their confidence and the likes of Arthur and Sarfraz have never been the same since.

That Asia Cup humiliation completely demoralised the psyche of Pakistan cricket and all the momentum from the Champions Trophy was blown into a million pieces. The fans on PP were also deeply humiliated because their arrogance leading up to the tournament was embarrassing.

It was a terribly rude awakening, but we had it coming. We should have realised that winning the Champions Trophy didn't make us world beaters overnight. We were still an average side who had 3 great games against 3 better sides, and that was it. A few of us knew that the Champions Trophy wouldn't have any long-term implications and a reality check was coming for the deluded players and the fans, but no one cared to listen at that time.

Now please for once wake up and prepare yourself for the doom that is coming our way in T20 cricket. This "we are the best in T20s" drama will end soon, and the only reason why he have looked good in T20s is because we haven't played India. A T20 series with India would be a repeat of the Asia Cup or what happened yesterday.

In fact, our slide in T20 cricket has already started with the defeats in South Africa and England, and it will reach its zenith when we will get spanked in the WT20 next year.
 
So you disagree that the Champions Trophy was a fluke?

At the time I thought it wasn't a fluke, purely due to my belief that you cannot win a tournament by sheer luck.

Now even I am doubting myself.
 
we rested on our laurels and actually havent improved as a whole.

1. After the CT the cull should have been compeleted and Profssor/Malik told to go away
2. We should have brought ina specalist spinner, i put most of this on Mickey. How the likes of Zafar never got a game is beyond me, especially since Yasir played a fair few
3. We actually didnt move forward when it came to opening. There is very little difference between Azhar and Imam, and actually ill say when it matters Azhar is more reliable.
4. Non existent middle order - to much time given to failures (yet again) and sarfraz being completely lost in the lower order. We had not continuity and change pretty much every game
5. Not enough competitive matches, the players got complacement by smashing minnows.
 
Extremely poor management and scrambled thinking.

We invested two years in Fahim and Shinwari only to discard Shinwari altogether for a rookie whose played zero first class games. Fahim gets dropped after a high scoring series against England when every bowler went for some...

Junaid gets selected for the world cup squad and then gets dropped two weeks before the World Cup to be replaced by Wahab who hasn't played for a while and wasn't even on the radar.

Suhail looked to have turned a corner with respect to his dodgy knees and started performing with the bat only to be dropped for the important world cup games for a Malik who was averaging 13...

So scrambled thinking....
 
We got too cocky, fans and players alike. Our players haven't looked to improve even one bit since that triumph. They are certainly not as bad as they have made themselves out to be so far. You can't beat a red hot England side in their own den, if your players are not international class. The issue is that none of these lads have a clue when things don't go their way. While [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] goes overboard with his criticism to balance the optimism here, he is right in the fact that the Asia Cup disaster mentally handicapped the team.

Hasan Ali is a prime example of what went wrong since 2017. The number one bowler in the world should look to get better and better, and eventually become the best version of himself. Hasan saahib was happy in his bubble, and more than happy to just focus on his skill-levels in T20 cricket. There has been no extra motivation to improve himself as an all-round bowler, for all formats. Hasan has conventional and reverse swing at his disposal. Also, he had the ability to nip the ball back off the seam from that 4th stump channel. How on earth can you lose all of that, and proceed to bowl short and wide rubbish for an extended period of time?
 
You don't get lucky twice.

This. Just check the results of the odi encounters of India Pakistan between 2015 world cup to yesterdays match. 6 matches played. 5 of them India has won with margins of over 50 runs or 5 wickets. Only 1 won by Pakistan was the ct2017 final. Now wether that one match was fluke or were the other 5 were flukes....well as they say it's not Sunday every day of the week
 
Had Sarfaraz won the toss & elected to bat first yesterday, maybe the results would've been different.

Anyways, after CT2017, the one major difference between India & Pak has been that India has got somewhat ruthless & got rid of it's two ageing spinners, i.e Jadeja & Ashwin, & replaced them with two wicket takers in Kuldeep-Chahal. In the batting dept. Yuvi is discarded, & KL Rahul has been drafted in. What this did was that, now India has got 4 wicket taking bowlers, who can turn the match at any stage of the game, which means the opposition is under relentless pressure when facing Indian bowling, unlike the past when the opposition used to take the match away from 15th to 40th over.

Compare that with Pkistan, & the only change visible is that Azhar Ali has been replaced with Imam, & Junaid Khan with Wahab. Imam is a decent bat, but just like Azhar Ali, he kills the momentum, while Wahab is God knows made of what but he too is capable of giving away the match in a short spell of his, by bowling absolute trash.

Babar is a decent bat again, but his Akmal genes seems to have ignited & he is regularly throwing his wickets after decent starts, with afew flashy boundaries, like Umar Akmal used to. Remember, great batsmen do not become great by exhibiting a few breathtaking shots, & the throwing it away. They are made so by grinding it out, & letting other not so good batters build around them.

Malik has regressed a lot, & so has Hafeez, not only in terms of batting, but also fielding & bowling. True definition of Railu kattas to be honest.

Sarfaraz does not warrants to be the captain, not because his own form is trash, but because of his temperament. One small example, I guess it was Fakhar at short cover, where he misfielded a drive from Rohit, which resulted in a single. Sarfaraz yelled at him, & threw his own head back, while kind of kicking the ground in agony. To my surprise, the fielder didn't even look at his captain & kept walking to his position, as if he didn't even care.

Imad can't be blamed to much, but he isn't going to light the world on fire anyways, given his abilities & attitude.

Hasan Ali is a shadow of himself, & one can easily see he is too timid & intimidated. He isn't even celebrating his wickets too much now. I was surprised & sorry to see that when Ali was cut over square for a six by Rohit, no one came to Ali to talk to him. Sarfaraz was busy covering his mouth with his gloves.

Shadab came to bowl, & being a leggie, the captain should've given him protection on both sides early on till he settled down, but it wasn't the case. As a captain, Sarfaraz must've known that Leggies need an over or two to get their control. As a result, he went for more than a dozen early on, & his confidence was shot. These small examples show that how a good players confidence is shaken by poor captaincy.

Amir is bowling well at the moment, and warrants his place in the team. However, if he can't find his mojo back in non major events, he needs to be booted as well. You can't turn up once every two years, and go hiding for the rest of time.

All in all, this Pak team should go for an overhaul, but the question is, for a good finished product (national team), you need good raw material (fresh talent from domestic structure), which is itself in shambles.

Not everyone can be Imran, who was like a warlord back in the day, & take along a bunch of mediocre guys to victory. I guess instead of looking for instant results, Pakistan must look to improve it's first class structure, build good base for upcoming kids, & only expect the next crop to be competitive by next 3-4 years. In the interim, be prepared to lose some series, but non performing guys must be axed, no matter how big their names are.

rant over.
 
I posted this is another thread but perhaps it is more relevant here:

Pakistan's 2017 Champions Trophy team would have lost a series to every team (excluding Sri Lanka and Bangladesh) in the competition in those conditions, but Pakistan won three successive matches against three better sides because everything went their way. It was something unique that will most likely never happen again, especially to Pakistan. Even against Sri Lanka, an inferior team, Pakistan completely bottled the game but luck favoured them again.

Nevertheless, it was a fantastic triumph and our fans had every right to rejoice it because it will go down as one of the most memorable moments in Pakistan history. Fluke or not, the trophy is now in Pakistan's cabinet. However, the problem was that our fans looked too much into that success and became oblivious to the glaring shortcomings of the team. Their heads were in the clouds and they thought they were now invincible. This attitude rubbed onto the players as well, who got cocky.

Our misplaced arrogance was particularly on display with respect to India. We were told that India is afraid of this fresh Pakistan team, and this new generation of Pakistani players, the PSL superstars like Fakhar, Babar, Shadab, Hasan, Faheem as well as Sarfraz and Amir etc. will not fear India anymore, and the Champions Trophy will be another "Miandad six" moment, and how it will prove to be a turning moment in the Pakistan-India rivalry.

The players reflected this attitude as well. Sarfraz claiming in a press conference that maybe India is scared of playing them and the way Hasan acted at the border showed the mindset of our players at that time.

All of those delusions were laid to rest in the Asia Cup, which was an extremely brutal reality-check. It was a longsword that was plunged straight into our hearts. An Indian team without Kohli came to the UAE and completely demolished a full-strength Pakistan side in two matches. Players like Hasan, Fakhar etc. completely lost their confidence and the likes of Arthur and Sarfraz have never been the same since.

That Asia Cup humiliation completely demoralised the psyche of Pakistan cricket and all the momentum from the Champions Trophy was blown into a million pieces. The fans on PP were also deeply humiliated because their arrogance leading up to the tournament was embarrassing.

It was a terribly rude awakening, but we had it coming. We should have realised that winning the Champions Trophy didn't make us world beaters overnight. We were still an average side who had 3 great games against 3 better sides, and that was it. A few of us knew that the Champions Trophy wouldn't have any long-term implications and a reality check was coming for the deluded players and the fans, but no one cared to listen at that time.

Now please for once wake up and prepare yourself for the doom that is coming our way in T20 cricket. This "we are the best in T20s" drama will end soon, and the only reason why he have looked good in T20s is because we haven't played India. A T20 series with India would be a repeat of the Asia Cup or what happened yesterday.

In fact, our slide in T20 cricket has already started with the defeats in South Africa and England, and it will reach its zenith when we will get spanked in the WT20 next year.

You’d think more people would’ve realise that the team is not as good as we think it is when we got thrashed 5-0 against New Zealand just 6 months after the CT17 win.

That series was a giant red flag that every one just decided to ignore.

And it wasn’t as if the batting condition in the series were hard. New Zealand was batting like there was no issue and from what I remember there were a few achievable sub 300 second innings chases that we fumbled as usual.
 
You’d think more people would’ve realise that the team is not as good as we think it is when we got thrashed 5-0 against New Zealand just 6 months after the CT17 win.

That series was a giant red flag that every one just decided to ignore.

And it wasn’t as if the batting condition in the series were hard. New Zealand was batting like there was no issue and from what I remember there were a few achievable sub 300 second innings chases that we fumbled as usual.

The excuse for that whitewash was that we arrived late and had only one practice match. We completely ignored the failings of the team because we were still intoxicated by the Champions Trophy. That series was all the proof anyone needed that this team wasn't the world beaters our fans were portraying them to be.
 
Extremely poor management and scrambled thinking.

We invested two years in Fahim and Shinwari only to discard Shinwari altogether for a rookie whose played zero first class games. Fahim gets dropped after a high scoring series against England when every bowler went for some...

Junaid gets selected for the world cup squad and then gets dropped two weeks before the World Cup to be replaced by Wahab who hasn't played for a while and wasn't even on the radar.

Suhail looked to have turned a corner with respect to his dodgy knees and started performing with the bat only to be dropped for the important world cup games for a Malik who was averaging 13...

So scrambled thinking....

And if they were here, they would have been just as poor. There are deep structural issues, which we dont have the capacity to fix with an organisation like the PCB- which has never cared for the development of cricket in PK and is used by everyone from the elite as gravy train.
 
The excuse for that whitewash was that we arrived late and had only one practice match. We completely ignored the failings of the team because we were still intoxicated by the Champions Trophy. That series was all the proof anyone needed that this team wasn't the world beaters our fans were portraying them to be.

Can you name fans that were calling world beaters. I dont remember many calling them World beaters- they deservedly won the CT but thats just fact.
 
Can you name fans that were calling world beaters. I dont remember many calling them World beaters- they deservedly won the CT but thats just fact.

I don't want to name and shame the posters out of respect, but if you dig threads from around July 2017 to August 2018, you will notice how out of touch some of our fans were when it comes to assessing the true capabilities of this team. Most of them woke up after the Asia Cup disaster in September 2018.
 
The stars aligned. No harm is savouring it. We all celebrate great wins. Pk played 3 perfect games. A rarity.
 
I don't want to name and shame the posters out of respect, but if you dig threads from around July 2017 to August 2018, you will notice how out of touch some of our fans were when it comes to assessing the true capabilities of this team. Most of them woke up after the Asia Cup disaster in September 2018.

I loved every moment of the deserved CT over Ind, and it was no fluke. We played excellently to win, and the team looked to have kicked on but the problems of only playing 4 batsman has been there for a long while, and the loss of form from the likes Hasan Ali have meant that we are not challenging as a bowling Unit.
 
So you disagree that the Champions Trophy was a fluke?

Maybe not a fluke, but certainly there was an element of luck. Firstly, really bad team selection by India when they dropped Umesh (who had figures of 7 overs, 30 runs and 3 wkts in the group game against Pakistan) and selected Ashwin and Jadeja. Secondly, Fakkar got lucky, with the Bumrah no ball, and also numerous mishits falling into vacant spaces. His innings set up the later assault by Pakistani batsmen on the Indian spinners. Finally, Amir always beats the batsmen in his opening spell, but he needs a bit of luck to get them out, and he had that luck against the Indian top order.

All the above could have happened with the current Pakistani team, though Indian team selection and the way the top order played Amir were a lot smarter this time around.
 
Having followed Pakistan cricket for about 22 years (with interest declining rapidly each year) I believe the biggest problem is the batting strike rate.

The other shortcomings (captaincy/fielding/bowling) can be overcome but Pakistan is not capable of consistently scoring 300 which in this day and age is just not acceptable.

You can change a captain, change bowlers who might be effective for a while (eg Hasan Ali) but cricket is now a batsman's game , so bowling does not win matches as regularly now.

Batsmen need to start attacking no later than the fifth over (which is what we see with teams like England, India, Australia) but there is just too much consolidation and too many dot balls from Pakistan batsmen.

This is not just a problem now - this was a longstanding problem even in the 2011 World Cup. Pakistan has not been able to keep up with the changes in the modern game. When chasing, they still seem to think they can score 4 runs per over in the first 30 overs and then 8 runs in the next 20 overs, but this only works if you have the batsmen to score 8 per over in the first place!!!
 
A quick fix to this is to play batsmen who are good at rotating strike and hitting boundaries and groom their temperament - I am sure Pakistan can produce batsmen like this but the issue is selecting the right batsmen in the first place.
 
In a nutshell, we have been let down Malik, Hasan and a muddled team strategy.
Imad and shadab are part of our odi first eleven. In all circumstances. And we also got confused about what to do with Harris

And something has also happened to Shaheen.

Everything else is about right. Did people really expect 8 points from the first 5 games.??

I would have bitten your hand off for 6
 
In Champion's trophy the format was such that a team needed to win only 2 matches to get through to Semis & then everything resets for them. A team like Australia couldn't qualify for semis cause 2 out of its 3 matches got rained off & it lost the 3rd one against England thru D/L method & instead Bangladesh qualified simply due to a freak victory over New Zealand. So all in all, a team needed to win only 4 matches (2 qualifying matches & 2 death matches) to win CT. Lot easier to sustain momentum for 5 match streak.

World cup is a whole different ball game. One needs to win atleast 6 out of 9 matches to qualify for semis & then win 2 death matches. Really tough to maintain momentum for 11 matches. Plus, the way Pak has boxed itself into corner, every match has become a death match now. Plus, even winning every qualifying match itself isn't enough. It also needs luck to favor it with results of few matches going it's way.
 
some harsh words were exchanged yesterday between Sarfaraz and the senior guys. Something wrong is going on with this team but can anyone close to the team confirm? Saj maybe you can help or at least let us know if there is something going on or not?
 
And if they were here, they would have been just as poor. There are deep structural issues, which we dont have the capacity to fix with an organisation like the PCB- which has never cared for the development of cricket in PK and is used by everyone from the elite as gravy train.

I agree with you.
However as a think tank if you can’t even get the basics right then that’s extremely worrying.
To effectively throw away your game plan days before the worldcup is the a huge blunder and makes you wonder what the management and selectors were thinking.
 
Indian players get paid 10 times more than their Pakistani counterparts but they in turn get motivated to further take their games to the next level. In contrast Pakistani players have only gotten softer and it has a lot to do with a lack of competition for spots in the team. No incentives for players to get fitter and improve their skills knowing full well they have a confirmed booking in the team. This is a cultural problem.
 
I agree with you.
However as a think tank if you can’t even get the basics right then that’s extremely worrying.
To effectively throw away your game plan days before the worldcup is the a huge blunder and makes you wonder what the management and selectors were thinking.

They were like everyone else scratching around for the solution to the lack of quality. There is often an assumption that these are highly trained selectors with an amazing eye for talent- they arent, most are just trying to wing it. The real skill is with people who identify talent at a young age which is not obvious to the lay person, and thats where resources and incentives should go. Then give those kids an opportunity(lots of opportunity) to play against good players on dry, hard surfaces in good weather. Have a pathway to the FC for these kids and once again give them lots of playing time against equally good players and with the playing conditions i described earlier.
 
Indian players get paid 10 times more than their Pakistani counterparts but they in turn get motivated to further take their games to the next level. In contrast Pakistani players have only gotten softer and it has a lot to do with a lack of competition for spots in the team. No incentives for players to get fitter and improve their skills knowing full well they have a confirmed booking in the team. This is a cultural problem.

Mediocrity breeds laziness.
 
2017 is the new 1992 apparently for the current team. They will ride that wave for as long as they can.
 
There is zero excuse for not improving upon things in your control i.e.

Fitness

Nutrition

Skills based practice

Selections

Strategy
 
It's doubtful if we would ever reach the professionalism of the big three. However, I firmly believe we could have competed far better if he had developed our middle order instead of sticking with the sainted seniors who have by and large failed. There's maybe a case for Hafeez but all he has proved that he's a FTB but goes missing in tough situations.

After CT victory, Hafeez should have been retired and wished well into the sunset along with Malik. Thereby we could have inducted some fresh faces to establish themselves in those two spots. We need fit and quick players to compete with the very best and having two 40 year olds and a fat Sarfraz isn't going to cut it.

I agree that fame has got to Hasan's head and he was one of the main reasons for the CT success. But where are the management to keep these players firmly on their feet and ensure they keep working hard and remain focused. UKS would have been more useful addition to the bowling squad ahead of either Hasnain or Wahab as he has results. Wahab's done okay by his standards in this WC but hasn't set the world alight. I know he some batting ability but we can't be relying on our tail-enders.

So in summary there a couple of quick but crucial fixes. Get rid of seniority culture and select players on merit. This won't make us world beaters but it's the start to our recovery.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] has been proven right all along. If only pakistani management has realised what he realised things might have been better now. Alas, better late than never
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] has been proven right all along. If only pakistani management has realised what he realised things might have been better now. Alas, better late than never

There are no short-term solutions. PCB should have seen the writing on the wall 10-15 years ago. Nothing would have changed in the last two years had they realized that the Champions Trophy was a fluke and they were still mediocre.
 
Was 2017 a fluke? No it wasn't, they came together as a team, found momentum and had key players hitting form together and won that tournament. It was a superb performance.

It's not fluke if you are unable to repeat the performance. It happens often in football when teams get hot for a tournament and then are unable to repeat those performance the following year. Case of Greece in 2000, Portugal in 2016 come to mind or even Roma in CL in 2018. It's not that those runs were flukes, but just a team finding the right balance, the right circumstances or even having the right chemistry behind the scenes.

A lot of thoughts come to my mind in the aftermath of this defeat. But most of all, I have developed an intense hatred of ex-players trying to put down the current lot. Like they ever won a WC match against India, and against much poorer teams than the current lot which is one the best teams in the world, has the best ODI batman and ODI bowler in the world in it's ranks.

Also most of the reactions on twitter are ridiculous to say the least, I don't see much of a difference between the performance against Australia and India. It was more or less the same with a better team winning against a lesser team in a similar fashion with the middle order falling apart. I didn't see so many tears and cries for help then, I suppose there wasn't much of an audience for your fake tears and jazba then. It's almost like a loss is better for these fake fans and ex players as they get more of an audience and platform to spout their nonsense. Look at me how creative I am in putting this team down.

I am realistic about the team as it isn't the best Pakistan team in while and anyone who follows the team regularly should know that. They are not consistent, they are not the best fielding team and certainly it doesn't have anyone of the "worlds best" in them, I was hoping for a win but expected a loss. That's what the expectation is when you are up against a better team with several of the "worlds best" amongst them.

Putting your own player through the mud just because your ego is hurt due to unrealistic expectations is ridiculous.

I am still rooting for them knowing full well when the tournament started that these guys most likely won't make the semis, they are not one of the top four teams in the world. But still hope that may be it will all come together, the chemistry will click and the performances will flow and they will get momentum and make a run. There's nothing better than an underdog making it happen.
 
There are no short-term solutions. PCB should have seen the writing on the wall 10-15 years ago. Nothing would have changed in the last two years had they realized that the Champions Trophy was a fluke and they were still mediocre.

So what is the solution now to fix Pakistan cricket? I think they tested new bowlers in England series after New Zealand series defeat.
 
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some harsh words were exchanged yesterday between Sarfaraz and the senior guys. Something wrong is going on with this team but can anyone close to the team confirm? Saj maybe you can help or at least let us know if there is something going on or not?

He gave nothing away at the press conference and said that there were no problems in the team.

There's definitely some issues as some of the players don't give a damn.

During the innings break I saw one of the Pakistani players in the lift - he was laughing, messing around and joking and flirting with a woman - it was almost like he was playing a benefit match.
 
There are no short-term solutions. PCB should have seen the writing on the wall 10-15 years ago. Nothing would have changed in the last two years had they realized that the Champions Trophy was a fluke and they were still mediocre.

Champions trophy win was NOT a fluke. They won 4 matches in a row that can't be a fluke. They just found momentum at the right time. You can't call it a fluke.
 
Is it just me but ever since Inzi became selector we have gone downwards?

Not having a go at him for Imad. Imad is a good player but where is all this talent that Inzi was supposed to unearth?
 
He gave nothing away at the press conference and said that there were no problems in the team.

There's definitely some issues as some of the players don't give a damn.

During the innings break I saw one of the Pakistani players in the lift - he was laughing, messing around and joking and flirting with a woman - it was almost like he was playing a benefit match.

No need to name any players but we all know who he is (Scandal a year ago as well). Another Railu Katta in the team...
 
The performance from the team needs to be punished like when the same team won the CT they did get a lot of prizes etc. PCB should impose a fine of rs 5 lakh on every player (who played atleast 5 games) plus coaches. I know this sound childish but same players get alot of money when they perform well so why not some sort of fine when they are doing extremely bad.
 
Pakistani players bar a few exceptions lack the work ethic of their international counterparts. How many times have we seen youngsters start their careers with a bang only to fizzle out after the opposition does their homework on them ?

These guys dined out on the CT17 win and failed to develop their game. Hasan Ali and Shadab Khan are two examples, neither of whom now capable of even landing the ball on the same spot.

The management also are guilty of this. Instead of IMPROVING the combination, they blindly stuck with CT17 formula. Hence why they haven't bothered grooming proper spinners thinking our phaast bowling will blow everyone away like two years ago, even though all the top sides have at least one quality spinner while we rely on bits and pieces fake swag duo Imad and Shadab.

Neither did we move on sainted seniors Hafeez and Malik whose 499 ODIs combined experience counted for zilch vs India.
 
No need to name any players but we all know who he is (Scandal a year ago as well). Another Railu Katta in the team...

Rather alarming attitude for a WC match. I know we're not taking names but are we allowed to drop hints?
 
At the time I thought it wasn't a fluke, purely due to my belief that you cannot win a tournament by sheer luck.

Now even I am doubting myself.

Due to the brevity of the tournament, Pakistan only needed to win 4 ODIs consecutively including the SF and F to win the tournament.

Hot form of a week in this WC will only mean winning 2-3 group matches, so clearly it is a tournament that cannot be won by a team riding high on momentum but rather a consistent and clutch team. Attributes which Pakistan have lacked for the vast majority of their cricketing history.
 
I am enjoying the current ICC WC format, it truly ensures that the most consistent, quality team will make it to the final 4.
 
Maybe not a fluke, but certainly there was an element of luck. Firstly, really bad team selection by India when they dropped Umesh (who had figures of 7 overs, 30 runs and 3 wkts in the group game against Pakistan) and selected Ashwin and Jadeja. Secondly, Fakkar got lucky, with the Bumrah no ball, and also numerous mishits falling into vacant spaces. His innings set up the later assault by Pakistani batsmen on the Indian spinners. Finally, Amir always beats the batsmen in his opening spell, but he needs a bit of luck to get them out, and he had that luck against the Indian top order.

All the above could have happened with the current Pakistani team, though Indian team selection and the way the top order played Amir were a lot smarter this time around.

I wasn't talking about any match in particular of that tourney but ny means, can that CT Final destruction of India be called a fluke. The only lucky moment was the Bumrah no ball when he got Fakhar but these are part and parcel of the game, all sides face these issues eventually.

The remainder of your post is quite subjective because Pakistan the team, were simply on their best form that day and that as we've seen in recent years, happens very rarely but when it does, they can still blow teams away. The Final had one fortunate moment, but it will be remembered for the all round comprehensive display.
 
He gave nothing away at the press conference and said that there were no problems in the team.

There's definitely some issues as some of the players don't give a damn.

During the innings break I saw one of the Pakistani players in the lift - he was laughing, messing around and joking and flirting with a woman - it was almost like he was playing a benefit match.

I was surprised at the above player - he and Sarfaraz are quite close and have played with each other for a long time. Wonder if he has an ulterior motive post the world cup and captaincy.
 
If you look at the ICCT from far-out, I can see why someone might say it was a fluke, i.e., a weakly ranked opponent with no star players won a global tournament. Or perhaps someone can call it a "rare" occurrence, because Pakistan hasn't won much on the global level after 2009 T20WC. But if someone only analyzed the tournament from Day 1 till the end of the final match, they would be convinced Pakistan was by far the best team at the tournament after the convincing semi-final win and the absolute annihilation dealt out in the Finals (the likes of which has never been seen before in the sport in a final). ICCT was a fluke the way 1996 WC was a fluke (i.e., minnow lifting the trophy) or 1983 WC (poorly ranked team has an unlikely win and go on to win the tournament).

So it really all depends on what someone is willing to call a fluke. The fact is, tournaments like this do not factor in consistency. Yes, you have to be consistent for a few games (like Pakistan was in CT), but it's about how you play in the tournament that matters - not your ODI ranking or the string of losses beforehand. ICCT was not a fluke at all; it was won by the team that played the best cricket in that tournament. Anything you say contrary to this is just false.

As for the ICCT win & PSL antics getting to the players' heads: this may be true. Most of my Pakistani friends prior the India game said that we would bet on India, even if we want Pakistan to win. So I'm not sure of others, but most level-headed fans agree that India has a much better ODI team and were favorites in the match. The one-sided result is also not so fringe because often times a side chasing a big score will capitulate spectacularly and it's not something isolated to just Pakistan.

A fair question to all you guys: If Pakistan goes on to win this world cup, will it be a "fluke"? Will you pile up a list of excuses for all the other teams as to why they were more deserving but somehow lost due to this said-"fluke"? There is no reason to belittle other Pak achievements from two years ago just because they are playing poorly today.

As for OP: what went wrong is that we never actually improved on our main issues: middle order & fielding. After our top 3 batsmen, we don't have anyone who would walk into a top international side. We haven't been able to groom someone to take on the finisher role. We haven't done enough to improve our fielding. Our bowling isn't doing too well - but I'm looking around at other sides and I don't see other sides doing that much better than Pakistan either - India being the exception and that's why they're at the top of the table.
 
I wasn't talking about any match in particular of that tourney but ny means, can that CT Final destruction of India be called a fluke. The only lucky moment was the Bumrah no ball when he got Fakhar but these are part and parcel of the game, all sides face these issues eventually.

The remainder of your post is quite subjective <b>because Pakistan the team, were simply on their best form that day and that as we've seen in recent years, happens very rarely but when it does, they can still blow teams away.</b> The Final had one fortunate moment, but it will be remembered for the all round comprehensive display.

I find amazing the difference in batting performance in this WC against England and Australia on one hand, and India and WI on the other.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">2 years today since the Champions Trophy win. Since then Pakistan have played 42 ODIs:<br><br>Won 16 (12 of which were v S Lanka, Zim, Afg & Hong Kong)<br>Lost 24<br>No Result 2<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1140944406922571776?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2019</a></blockquote>
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I find amazing the difference in batting performance in this WC against England and Australia on one hand, and India and WI on the other.

Only good batting innings was vs England, they collapsed vs Aus too in the middle overs.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pakistan batting averages in ODIs since Champions Trophy Final (excluding SL, Zim, Afg, H Kong)<br><br>H Sohail 54.10<br>Imad 49.37<br>Imam 43.21<br>Babar Azam 35.87<br>F Zaman 35.78<br>M Hafeez 34.81<br>Sarfaraz 33.29<br>Shadab 23.27<br>S Malik 23.09<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1140957779273949186?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2019</a></blockquote>
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It still beats me why Pakistan decided to dump Azhar Ali who formed a formidable pair with Fakhar Zaman during Champions Trophy. His calm perfectly worked with Zaman's storm.

However, Pakistan were not as great as they played in Champions Trophy. They just had 3 great days, that's it. They struggled like other ordinary teams either side of that triumph.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pakistan batting averages in ODIs since Champions Trophy Final (excluding SL, Zim, Afg, H Kong)<br><br>H Sohail 54.10<br>Imad 49.37<br>Imam 43.21<br>Babar Azam 35.87<br>F Zaman 35.78<br>M Hafeez 34.81<br>Sarfaraz 33.29<br>Shadab 23.27<br>S Malik 23.09<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1140957779273949186?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2019</a></blockquote>
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I'm really surprised at Babar Azam's average! :O

I thought he was indeed playing some extraordinary cricket... very poor based on the standards I had for him!
 
Yes, but it's been proven to be an outlier since they haven't been able to replicate that form for several years before and after that CT tournament.

No, at the point in time for a few weeks they were the best team. If you are saying they are a poor team, well thats been the case generally since 99.
 
No, at the point in time for a few weeks they were the best team. If you are saying they are a poor team, well thats been the case generally since 99.

Please tell us for which 'few weeks' they were the best team?
 
people claiming that the whole champions trophy was a fluke or just final was a fluke , even if final is considered a fluke , getting to final of champions trophy is no small feat.
 
people claiming that the whole champions trophy was a fluke or just final was a fluke , even if final is considered a fluke , getting to final of champions trophy is no small feat.

They won because of Fakhar Zaman's inclusion and Wahab's exclusion; now that he's been found out Pakistan are back to struggling.
 
people claiming that the whole champions trophy was a fluke or just final was a fluke , even if final is considered a fluke , getting to final of champions trophy is no small feat.

Beating England at home, and thrashing Ind is no fluke. They played excellently to win and desreved their success.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pakistan batting averages in ODIs since Champions Trophy Final (excluding SL, Zim, Afg, H Kong)<br><br>H Sohail 54.10<br>Imad 49.37<br>Imam 43.21<br>Babar Azam 35.87<br>F Zaman 35.78<br>M Hafeez 34.81<br>Sarfaraz 33.29<br>Shadab 23.27<br>S Malik 23.09<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1140957779273949186?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 18, 2019</a></blockquote>
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Greatest injustice to Haris Sohail
 
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