JW Marriott Dubai fires Atul Kochhar over anti-Islamic tweet to Priyanka Chopra

[cricketjoshila]

The arguments can be presented, but each side will claim their own version of history to be facts, but unless it can be proven categorically, they remain possibilities. I really didn't want to go down this road of discussing history with a fine toothcomb in a thread about a chef sacked from a hotel, but since everyone is posting 1000 word essays on it, might as well do it here.

There are court records of many such islamic invaders and how they kiled the idol worshippers and destroyed their idols and temples.

The entire sikh history is filled with how their Gurus were killed and tortured.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Dude ,Aurangazeb lived in medieval times and we live in a secular democracy. Learn the difference at least.And like i said above, Hindu kings like Marathas also destroyed and looted temples.

I read what you said. I want to know the point you want to prove.

Do you think those who treat the oppressors as their heroes because of shared faith should be tolerated?

There is no equivalence between a Musharraf sending troops inside a masjid and Modi sending troops in a masjid. Both are not the same.

 

[Dingolfy]

Islamic invaders and their atrocities isnt hindutva nonsense.

His tweet mentioned Islam not Mughals or Islamic invaders. He put entire blame on millions of ordinary Muslims in India who like you and me have no relation whatsoever to Mughals.

 

[CricketCartoons]

There are court records of many such islamic invaders and how they kiled the idol worshippers and destroyed their idols and temples.

The entire sikh history is filled with how their Gurus were killed and tortured.

The Sikh gurus and their kids were not really killed by muslim invaders. It is just the Sikh version of history.

 

[TM Riddle]

[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION] instead of throwing around random false statements how about you prove them by citing correct sources?

 

[CricketCartoons]

His tweet mentioned Islam not Mughals or Islamic invaders. He put entire blame on millions of ordinary Muslims in India who like you and me have no relation whatsoever to Mughals.

Yes, and that is his mistake where he is wrong. if he had said muslim invaders, he was right. Doesn't mean his mistake should be used to cover up the atrocities of the invaders.

 

[Dingolfy]

I read what you said. I want to know the point you want to prove.

Do you think those who treat the oppressors as their heroes because of shared faith should be tolerated?

There is no equivalence between a Musharraf sending troops inside a masjid and Modi sending troops in a masjid. Both are not the same.

The oppressor can be relative.For milions of Dalits in India, British rule was a blessing.Their missionaries gave them education and conversion saved them from atrocities by a big margin.And Hindu kings who followed casteism to the hilt were their oppressors.Other than some radical Muslims, i never came across anyone who rever Muslim invaders

 

[cricketjoshila]

I deliberately refrained from mentioning Vijayanagar since we were talking about Muslim influence in South. If we include Hindus then apart from Vijayanagar there were Reddis of Telangana, Gajpatis of Odhisa etc who constantly fought amongst each other.
It's a common misconception that Islamic empires couldn't entrench themselves in the South and that it was North only that largely felt the brunt of the sword.

No it is the truth. The muslim empires except post Akbar were not able to keep the south india under their constant control. Hindu kingdoms kept taking back power. Same in Rajputana. The brunt was felt my what is today Pakistan,UP,Bihar,Bengal and BD and you will see the maximum muslim population of subcontinent in these areas.

Kerala had muslim population due to arab traders and parts of deccan due to Bahmani Sultanates.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The Sikh gurus and their kids were not really killed by muslim invaders. It is just the Sikh version of history.

Aurangzeb's court records say otherwise.

 

[DeadBall]

Which is fine as long as everyone will accept that it is the almighty dollar talking, and not some sense of righteousness - as I already pointed out to cricketjoshila ( which he studiously ignored) if that is the yardstick, then right and wrong is for sale anyway, maybe the Saudis will pitch in with a bigger jackpot and that will make Islam the winner again.

Islam and SA are already the winners. Putin was apologizing every time Russia scored a goal against SA today. He (Putin) was especially angry at the 5th goal. One would have been forgiven to think that Putin (and the Fifa guy) had converted to Islam and were supporting the Saudis.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There are court records of many such islamic invaders and how they kiled the idol worshippers and destroyed their idols and temples.

The entire sikh history is filled with how their Gurus were killed and tortured.

The sikhs may well have been killed and tortured during their wars with the Mughals, perhaps they also killed and tortured their enemies, one must read from both sides and read between the lines to get a true picture of events. The British would provide a good source of neutral observation as they had no stake in the outcome.

 

[cricketjoshila]

His tweet mentioned Islam not Mughals or Islamic invaders. He put entire blame on millions of ordinary Muslims in India who like you and me have no relation whatsoever to Mughals.

Thats where he was wrong. But thst doesnt mean that the atrocities didnot take place.

Some how mentioning these atrocities is intolerance and Hindutva vadi.

 

[kaayal]

Are you a invader? Why do you as a Indian muslim take offence to this? No one is blaming Indian muslims but the fact that muslim invaders oppressed and killed Hindus destroyed their temples is a fact. That fact has to be accepted.

Is the Chef right in saying Islam has been terrorising Hinduism for past 2000 years in India? He didn’t specifically mention he was referring to the Muslim invaders but painted Islam as a whole which includes us Indian Muslims also. Nobody denies that those invaders were cruel but what’s the need for tarnishing our faith?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Islam and SA are already the winners. Putin was apologizing every time Russia scored a goal against SA today. He (Putin) was especially angry at the 5th goal. One would have been forgiven to think that Putin (and the Fifa guy) had converted to Islam and were supporting the Saudis.

I missed the game because I thought all opening games are a bore usually, now I wish I had watched it since there was 5 goals dammit. Sorry for going OT, but just saying.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The sikhs may well have been killed and tortured during their wars with the Mughals, perhaps they also killed and tortured their enemies, one must read from both sides and read between the lines to get a true picture of events. The British would provide a good source of neutral observation as they had no stake in the outcome.

The british were hardly neutral sir. They had a vested interest in keeping things divided.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The oppressor can be relative.For milions of Dalits in India, British rule was a blessing.Their missionaries gave them education and conversion saved them from atrocities by a big margin.And Hindu kings who followed casteism to the hilt were their oppressors.Other than some radical Muslims, i never came across anyone who rever Muslim invaders

I did not ask about your circle. Your bakwas about british rule and dalits would only go on a tangent, but suffice to say the greatest emancipator of Dalits, Babasaheb Ambedkar didn't choose Islam or Christianity, but Buddhism and so did his millions of followers.

Do you think invaders like babur, aurangzeb be seen as icons by any indian, no matter which faith.

 

[DeadBall]

I missed the game because I thought all opening games are a bore usually, now I wish I had watched it since there was 5 goals dammit. Sorry for going OT, but just saying.

View attachment 82331

Yes, was a very boring match though.

 

[Swashbuckler]

If he harbour this much hate for Islam and muslims, how can he have any good feelings for his fellow countrymen? Never knew we muslims are responsible for terrorizing hinduism for past 2000 years. I felt bad reading his comment eventhough i didn't do anything bad for anyone...

Social media brings out the worst in people and in my general experience people get carried away with a few likes and retweets. It is almost like a mental disease, I have seen my good friends act like lunatics on FB/WhatsApp/Twitter etc. That is why I have deleted all my accounts, life is more peaceful that way.

Islam is around 1400 years old, he doesn't even know his history. So don't get bothered by opinions of some stranger sitting 5000 miles away. Muslims like all invaders had positives (eg the food he cooks for a living will surely be having Turkic/Afghan/Arab/Persian/Mughal influence) and negatives. Before their arrival we still had invasions but invaders became part of us just like the later Muslims/British. India has seen invasions for thousands of years, yet because of improper/nil documented historical accounts in Ancient India we are ignorant of the death tolls.

You don't have to feel bad for something which occurred centuries earlier. I am pretty sure caste related violence and gender violence were the norms till recent times and my ancestors too must have treated lower castes/women badly. Doesn't mean I will feel depressed and sorry whole day because I have always tried to treat everyone with respect and compassion. Thrust should be to not repeat the mistakes of our ancestors and be more in tune with the 21st century where tolerance, human rights, respect, feminism are cherished values. We are more enlightened, humane and aware now than we were in medieval times so idea has to be to build on that.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Is the Chef right in saying Islam has been terrorising Hinduism for past 2000 years in India? He didn’t specifically mention he was referring to the Muslim invaders but painted Islam as a whole which includes us Indian Muslims also. Nobody denies that those invaders were cruel but what’s the need for tarnishing our faith?

No he isnt right in saying "Islam" is terrorising hindus.

But throughout history oppression and killing of Hindus and destruction of their temples was done in the name of Islam. These invaders will then call themselves Ghazis.

When you get time do read a few court records of these muslim rulers and how they are praised for killing idol worshippers or destroying temples.

The ordinary man will not read the Quran he will judge by the actions of the followers of islam.

Ps: Did you join anywhere? Msy be joining Anaesthesia.Not sure though.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The british were hardly neutral sir. They had a vested interest in keeping things divided.

But they removed the rule of the despotic Mughals who you have been describing as barbaric invaders. Why would you want to stay united under them? British at least brought a sense of order and an end to sati, the demonic burning of widows where Hindu society compelled them to end their lives with little say of their own.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Is the Chef right in saying Islam has been terrorising Hinduism for past 2000 years in India? He didn’t specifically mention he was referring to the Muslim invaders but painted Islam as a whole which includes us Indian Muslims also. Nobody denies that those invaders were cruel but what’s the need for tarnishing our faith?

Chef is wrong in that. He should have said muslim invaders. But that is not really the end of the story.

Instead of acknowledging and showing sympathy for the hindu holocaust and refusing to glorify those invaders, the more pressing concern is "don't tarnish our faith. end of story".

 

[Swashbuckler]

[MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION] instead of throwing around random false statements how about you prove them by citing correct sources?

What are the random false statements?

 

[TM Riddle]

No it is the truth. The muslim empires except post Akbar were not able to keep the south india under their constant control. Hindu kingdoms kept taking back power. Same in Rajputana. The brunt was felt my what is today Pakistan,UP,Bihar,Bengal and BD and you will see the maximum muslim population of subcontinent in these areas.

Kerala had muslim population due to arab traders and parts of deccan due to Bahmani Sultanates.

No you are wrong. After Alauddin's expedition south remained under control of Sultanate and the grip was further tightened by Ghiyasuddin Tughlaq and Muhammad Bin Tughlaq's campaigns.
After fall of Tughlaqs it got fragmented into various principalities of which Bahmanis and Sultans of Madurai were chief. Soon thereafter Madurai Sultanate was overpowered by Vijayanagar and a direct confrontation between them and Bahamanis over control of Krishna Tungbhadra doab began. At the peak of Bahmani power which coincidentally coincided with Vijayanagar's downfall, they controlled the most area in South ( remember Mahmud Gawan) and all the neighboring Hindu Rajas including the powerful Gajhpatis paid them tributes.

After resurgence of Vijayanagar under Krishna Deva Raya, Bahamani power got weakend and finally disintegrated into 5 individual Muslim Sultanates.
These Muslim Sultanates of Bijapur, Golconda, Ahmednagar, Berar and Bidar finally came together as one unit in 1565 to destroy Vijayanagar power once and for all in a battle site near Talikota.

Vijayanagar was plundererd and destroyed and not a single citizen was spared including Muslim traders.

Afterwards until Aurangzeb decided to take a long campaign in South, the area was primarily controlled by all these individual Sultanates with all the hindu Rajas paying tributes.
Remember Shivaji's father Shahji was in service of ruler of Bijapur?

Whole south except a few coastal areas remained under control of these muslim powers until it was finally subjugated by the mighty Mughals.

 

[TM Riddle]

What are the random false statements?

Ki south was free of Muslim rulers for the large part.

 

[CricketCartoons]

But they removed the rule of the despotic Mughals who you have been describing as barbaric invaders. Why would you want to stay united under them? British at least brought a sense of order and an end to sati, the demonic burning of widows where Hindu society compelled them to end their lives with little say of their own.

The british quoted from hindu scriptures to prevent the sati custom.

 

[Dingolfy]

I did not ask about your circle. Your bakwas about british rule and dalits would only go on a tangent, but suffice to say the greatest emancipator of Dalits, Babasaheb Ambedkar didn't choose Islam or Christianity, but Buddhism and so did his millions of followers.

Do you think invaders like babur, aurangzeb be seen as icons by any indian, no matter which faith.

Anybody can rever any icon.its a free country. Just like your blue eyed boy Golwalkar idolized Hitler.And Ambedkar himself was beneficiary of the education that Missionaries brought to India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The british quoted from hindu scriptures to prevent the sati custom.

Mashallah, this is the equivalent of when the Prophet (pbuh) sought refuge under the Christian king and quoted nice stuff about Jesus (pbuh) and then the king accepted Islam.I am paraphrasing here, not sure if that is the exact way it happened but you may have heard it.

 

[cricketjoshila]

But they removed the rule of the despotic Mughals who you have been describing as barbaric invaders. Why would you want to stay united under them? British at least brought a sense of order and an end to sati, the demonic burning of widows where Hindu society compelled them to end their lives with little say of their own.

British did everything mughals did except destroying places of worship and forcefully converting people. Europeans did it in the Americas though.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Anybody can rever any icon.its a free country. Just like your blue eyed boy Golwalkar idolized Hitler.And Ambedkar himself was beneficiary of the education that Missionaries brought to India.

I did not ask you whether people have the right to rever anyone as their icons. Now read this slowly and carefully.. do you think it is right that babar and aurangzeb are seen as icons. Don't hurry, take your time to read and understand what I am asking.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Ki south was free of Muslim rulers for the large part.

I was talking about 2 states. I am from Tamil Nadu and there was the Madurai Sultanate, a very small and dysfunctional rule for 40 odd years. Most people aren't even aware of it in the context of Tamil history. Northern Kerala and a small pocket of Tamil Nadu (Vellore-Ambur region) were under Tipu Sultan for a few years. Unlike many I certainly have a high opinion of Tipu and am proud of his rule. Under Malik Kafur and Tughluq rule there were a few raids down South. Nawab of Arcot was a subsidiary of the Nizam who ruled over a 40 mile radius around Arcot till he was defanged by the British.

 

[JaDed]

Are you a invader? Why do you as a Indian muslim take offence to this? No one is blaming Indian muslims but the fact that muslim invaders oppressed and killed Hindus destroyed their temples is a fact. That fact has to be accepted.

Like the fact that Upper casted have killed and discriminated against various castes ,and still do in many cities that's a fact.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Mashallah, this is the equivalent of when the Prophet (pbuh) sought refuge under the Christian king and quoted nice stuff about Jesus (pbuh) and then the king accepted Islam.I am paraphrasing here, not sure if that is the exact way it happened but you may have heard it.

Quite smart of the british.

The enemy will coax you in the direction he wants you to be. For example, applauding a hindu father holding an iftar party and pushing the narrative that hindus are known for compassion. So the hindu will fall in the trap while the enemy continues to idolize and defend the invaders who committed the hindu holocaust.

 

[Dingolfy]

I did not ask you whether people have the right to rever anyone as their icons. Now read this slowly and carefully.. do you think it is right that babar and aurangzeb are seen as icons. Don't hurry, take your time to read and understand what I am asking.

Lol. A bhakt exhorting others to read.Your answer is in my reply itself. It is the same as your chaddiwaalahs adoring Hitler and Modi.

 

[akki]

Let me explain this to our muslim brothers. We dnt hate you seriously. We worship almost around 33 crore plus or something different forms of god. Why wud we hesitate to add one more form of god by the name of allah to worship. This has been indian culture
But the thing which hurt is that when you guys take pride in demolishing of our temples or like that. I have heard alot of times ,how you guys take pride that it took ghajanvi 16th or something turn to demolish somnath temple. Why dnt you accept the attrocities done by them .
Our ancestors were 99 percent same. So you got to respect that thing. we cant undone past and hate in our hearts can only create trouble for future.you dnt need to see everything from religion lenses.
People here try to justify invaders by saying that hindus were anyway killing hindus so it was ok for invaders to come and kill all or invaders came here to end the supertitious. People forget that they are talking about the most modernized civilization indus valley of that time.

With this age of internet and social media ,all peoppe get to know about the history and sources...

 

[CricketCartoons]

Like the fact that Upper casted have killed and discriminated against various castes ,and still do in many cities that's a fact.

Which is accepted. There is reservation to address this historical injustice. There is upper caste guilt.

Where is the redressal for the historical wrongs against hindus. Where is the muslim guilt?

 

[Dingolfy]

Like the fact that Upper casted have killed and discriminated against various castes ,and still do in many cities that's a fact.

This. Atrocities of Hindu upper castes are still ongoing in Modern India and nobody is ashamed of that. But all up in arms to blame poor ordinary Muslims with things happened thousands of years back by folks who just share their religion. Bhakts and their logic always amuses me.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Lol. A bhakt exhorting others to read.Your answer is in my reply itself. It is the same as your chaddiwaalahs adoring Hitler and Modi.

Name calling. I thought it was a trait exclusive to us right wingers. Oh wait, you are a right winger too.. otherwise you dont be shy to speak against babar and aurangzeb.

And this is why I am a proud supporter of RSS and defend it in every fora and conversation.

Because the moment the selective humanitarians are asked a simple question, they turn into apologists.

 

[JaDed]

I did not ask you whether people have the right to rever anyone as their icons. Now read this slowly and carefully.. do you think it is right that babar and aurangzeb are seen as icons. Don't hurry, take your time to read and understand what I am asking.

What about you ,do you think Ashoka can be seen as an icon.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Quite smart of the british.

The enemy will coax you in the direction he wants you to be. For example, applauding a hindu father holding an iftar party and pushing the narrative that hindus are known for compassion. So the hindu will fall in the trap while the enemy continues to idolize and defend the invaders who committed the hindu holocaust.

Not quite correct. I was applauding the Hindu father on knowing himself and his values and upholding them under the most extreme duress. Doesn't mean I agree with them personally, but I can admire someone in his own convictions. As for the Hindu holocaust, I am actually the only one on this thread so far who has called for that subject to get it's own topic so we can give it the attention that it deserves rather than squirrelling it away in a thread about a Marriott chef.

 

[TM Riddle]

I was talking about 2 states. I am from Tamil Nadu and there was the Madurai Sultanate, a very small and dysfunctional rule for 40 odd years. Most people aren't even aware of it in the context of Tamil history. Northern Kerala and a small pocket of Tamil Nadu (Vellore-Ambur region) were under Tipu Sultan for a few years. Unlike many I certainly have a high opinion of Tipu and am proud of his rule. Under Malik Kafur and Tughluq rule there were a few raids down South. Nawab of Arcot was a subsidiary of the Nizam who ruled over a 40 mile radius around Arcot till he was defanged by the British.

Oh so from south we have come down to our local states.
What next, no Muslim ever stepped a foot in your local mohalla?

 

[JaDed]

Which is accepted. There is reservation to address this historical injustice. There is upper caste guilt.

Where is the redressal for the historical wrongs against hindus. Where is the muslim guilt?

I don't see the upper caste guilt except for the ones that have given up religion.
The religious upper castes hold rarely any guilt and keep posting about no reservations etc.

So much for the guilt that still caste discrimination happens lol.

 

[akki]

Lol. A bhakt exhorting others to read.Your answer is in my reply itself. It is the same as your chaddiwaalahs adoring Hitler and Modi.

If thay was the case then ambedkar who was a dalit and who made our constitution would have adopted islam or christianity. India is not an islamic country where if their natives convert to other religion them they would get death penalty.
India has been the second name of freedom or religions.There is no hate of dalits or other castes to each other. We live in a modern society. Some fights only happen because of politics and all .
But in general castes was nothing except it was based on occuppation only. Hinduism is not a new religion like 1400 years old. So you need to learn a whole about this religion before commenting.
Anyway we also dnt believe in many things about islam and muslims are killing muslims in many countries so should we attack them and kill them and it would justify everything. Your logics are only laughable

 

[akki]

I don't see the upper caste guilt except for the ones that have given up religion.
The religious upper castes hold rarely any guilt and keep posting about no reservations etc.

I am in punjab where 30 to 40 percent population is dalits and have seen even our sikh brothers calling them chamaar and saying that they are like that and all.its their nature.
Dnt generalize everything ,upper castes people are already getting discriminated in jobs or education. India took a burnt of invasions since centuries so little bit distorted history can never be out of question,especially if hinduism is oldest religion on earth

 

[JaDed]

British did everything mughals did except destroying places of worship and forcefully converting people. Europeans did it in the Americas though.

Portuguese did it in Goa as well.

 

[JaDed]

I am in punjab where 30 to 40 percent population is dalits and have seen even our sikh brothers calling them chamaar and saying that they are like that and all.its their nature.
Dnt generalize everything ,upper castes people are already getting discriminated in jobs or education. India took a burnt of invasions since centuries so little bit distorted history can never be out of question,especially if hinduism is oldest religion on earth

When did I say Sikhism doesn't have discrimination, they are probably more casteist than most Hindus having diff Gurudwaras for castes in foreign countries, singing continuous praises of one caste in their songs.

But Sikhi doesn't have discrimination.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I don't see the upper caste guilt except for the ones that have given up religion.
The religious upper castes hold rarely any guilt and keep posting about no reservations etc.

So much for the guilt that still caste discrimination happens lol.

Of course casteism exists. But you can't deny upper caste exist exists. There are constitutional remedies and laws, SC/ST act, reservations to address this historical injustice.

But why nothing for the historical injustice for hindus. So many temples demolished and can't even get one back? So give your whataboutism of dalit oppressio when you start seeing muslim guilt and hindus start getting some historical justice.

 

[JaDed]

Of course casteism exists. But you can't deny upper caste exist exists. There are constitutional remedies and laws, SC/ST act, reservations to address this historical injustice.

But why nothing for the historical injustice for hindus. So many temples demolished and can't even get one back? So give your whataboutism of dalit oppressio when you start seeing muslim guilt and hindus start getting some historical justice.

Which temple are you looking for? India from 1947 onwards have made many temples, restored some such as Somnath.

What else do you want? There is a temple on every corner Hindus have their own right wing party that is in power.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Oh so from south we have come down to our local states.
What next, no Muslim ever stepped a foot in your local mohalla?

Don't you consider Tamil Nadu or Kerala as part of South or don't you consider us as Indians? In my original post I had explicitly named these 2 states. Also made posts in an earlier thread touching a similar topic, too lazy to repeat points. There is a reason BJP/RSS and other Hindutva bigots don't have a foothold in this part. Hindus and Muslims (also Christians) have lived peacefully for centuries and no place of worship was ever damaged. Maybe it burns some posters from inside to see peaceful coexistence when all they yearn for is dividing Indian society into religious lines. Wish instead of harping about events centuries back, Hindutva warriors devote more time and energy to free our society from caste/communal/gender atrocities so that we get to see a New India just like PM Modi promised.

 

[akki]

When did I say Sikhism doesn't have discrimination, they are probably more casteist than most Hindus having diff Gurudwaras for castes in foreign countries, singing continuous praises of one caste in their songs.

But Sikhi doesn't have discrimination.

Nope sikhs in general dnt discrimiate.they are very lovable ,hardworking and chilled people.This internet and social media has just damaged peace of india alot man.Not at the ground level but on the minds of people. Many many trolls we get to see under any video and then that sow the seeds of doubt or may be hate..
but i have a full faith towards the maturity of people and land of our bharat

 

[JaDed]

Don't you consider Tamil Nadu or Kerala as part of South or don't you consider us as Indians? In my original post I had explicitly named these 2 states. Also made posts in an earlier thread touching a similar topic, too lazy to repeat points. There is a reason BJP/RSS and other Hindutva bigots don't have a foothold in this part. Hindus and Muslims (also Christians) have lived peacefully for centuries and no place of worship was ever damaged. Maybe it burns some posters from inside to see peaceful coexistence when all they yearn for is dividing Indian society into religious lines. Wish instead of harping about events centuries back, Hindutva warriors devote more time and energy to free our society from caste/communal/gender atrocities so that we get to see a New India just like PM Modi promised.

The peaceful coexistence in TN comes at a prize, the missionaries are most active in TN , tirunelveli is an example ,tuticorin other etc as well.
There is a bias against Hindu Temples and the govn has taken over most of them,even the Nanganallur Anjaneya temple a place which was built in front of me and became famous in front of me and Govn took over, they would never do that to Churches or Mosques.

TN works on Hindu guilt something that I don't agree with, but every celeb is allowed to bash Hindu religion but not others.

 

[JaDed]

Nope sikhs in general dnt discrimiate.they are very lovable ,hardworking and chilled people.This internet and social media has just damaged peace of india alot man.Not at the ground level but on the minds of people. Many many trolls we get to see under any video and then that sow the seeds of doubt or may be hate..
but i have a full faith towards the maturity of people and land of our bharat

Punjab has the highest level of dalit discrimination, am for one supporting ****** pride movements taking place with their songs for at least next 10 years coz of that very reason.

No religion can make a person work hard that doesn't happen.

 

[akki]

Punjab has the highest level of dalit discrimination, am for one supporting ****** pride movements taking place with their songs for at least next 10 years coz of that very reason.

No religion can make a person work hard that doesn't happen.

Dude i swear i argue with our upper caste hindus when they cry that they scored double marks then their sc or st friend , but still they didnt make to india best universities or govt jobs . And they abuse illogical discriminatiry laws and many students in india jave done sucide because of quota system.
I try them to understand many things which some do agree

 

[DeadBall]

Have deleted a lot of rubbish. Last warning.

 

[Swashbuckler]

The peaceful coexistence in TN comes at a prize, the missionaries are most active in TN , tirunelveli is an example ,tuticorin other etc as well.
There is a bias against Hindu Temples and the govn has taken over most of them,even the Nanganallur Anjaneya temple a place which was built in front of me and became famous in front of me and Govn took over, they would never do that to Churches or Mosques.

TN works on Hindu guilt something that I don't agree with, but every celeb is allowed to bash Hindu religion but not others.

I know missionaries are active in Tuticorin, Tirunelveli, Kanyakumari but what's the problem? Most of the converts are Dalits/poverty stricken people and if they believe they will lead better lives as Christians they must be allowed to convert. Human dignity and standard of life trumps religion, the missionaries provide them both, so what's the harm? Freedom of religion is enshrined in our Constitution and Hindu outfits are free to proselytize also. One of my childhood friends converted to Christianity along with his family. His family was extremely poor but the Church helped them financially, providing for the education of the children. Today they are well to do and the boy has become an empowered man with a great job. I met him at a school reunion a year back and he is still the same, he hasn't become an alien or something like that I can assure you.

Government taking over temples may also be a good thing in terms of social justice. If they can get lower caste people appointed as priests or treasurers maybe it will be more inclusive. Most Hindus don't have a problem with this. If people are aggrieved they can launch a democratic movement to overturn this phenomenon. Indian Constitution guarantees all the rights and most of the lawmakers, legislators, judges are Hindus. It isn't like there is a crazy conspiracy going on to subjugate Tamil Hindus.

Hinduism has always been open to criticism and that is its greatest strength. Atheism and questioning are integral parts of our faith. And let's be honest there are many faults in the current version of our religion and it won't be a bad idea to have public discussions which can ultimately stir a wider debate at an intellectual level. I can't comment on Islam/Christianity, let followers of their faiths handle the matter. But at least in the developed world, Christianity is held to task. If religions aren't questioned it isn't right at least in my view.

 

[Dingolfy]

I know missionaries are active in Tuticorin, Tirunelveli, Kanyakumari but what's the problem? Most of the converts are Dalits/poverty stricken people and if they believe they will lead better lives as Christians they must be allowed to convert. Human dignity and standard of life trumps religion, the missionaries provide them both, so what's the harm? Freedom of religion is enshrined in our Constitution and Hindu outfits are free to proselytize also. One of my childhood friends converted to Christianity along with his family. His family was extremely poor but the Church helped them financially, providing for the education of the children. Today they are well to do and the boy has become an empowered man with a great job. I met him at a school reunion a year back and he is still the same, he hasn't become an alien or something like that I can assure you.

Government taking over temples may also be a good thing in terms of social justice. If they can get lower caste people appointed as priests or treasurers maybe it will be more inclusive. Most Hindus don't have a problem with this. If people are aggrieved they can launch a democratic movement to overturn this phenomenon. Indian Constitution guarantees all the rights and most of the lawmakers, legislators, judges are Hindus. It isn't like there is a crazy conspiracy going on to subjugate Tamil Hindus.

Hinduism has always been open to criticism and that is its greatest strength. Atheism and questioning are integral parts of our faith. And let's be honest there are many faults in the current version of our religion and it won't be a bad idea to have public discussions which can ultimately stir a wider debate at an intellectual level. I can't comment on Islam/Christianity, let followers of their faiths handle the matter. But at least in the developed world, Christianity is held to task. If religions aren't questioned it isn't right at least in my view.

This.For a hungry man, Food is his religion.And unlike Christians and Muslims, Temples belong to different sects and castes in Hinduism and hence you need a govt appointed board to govern them.In Kerala, caste organizations like SNDP and NSS run their own temples.

 

[akki]

I know missionaries are active in Tuticorin, Tirunelveli, Kanyakumari but what's the problem? Most of the converts are Dalits/poverty stricken people and if they believe they will lead better lives as Christians they must be allowed to convert. Human dignity and standard of life trumps religion, the missionaries provide them both, so what's the harm? Freedom of religion is enshrined in our Constitution and Hindu outfits are free to proselytize also. One of my childhood friends converted to Christianity along with his family. His family was extremely poor but the Church helped them financially, providing for the education of the children. Today they are well to do and the boy has become an empowered man with a great job. I met him at a school reunion a year back and he is still the same, he hasn't become an alien or something like that I can assure you.

Government taking over temples may also be a good thing in terms of social justice. If they can get lower caste people appointed as priests or treasurers maybe it will be more inclusive. Most Hindus don't have a problem with this. If people are aggrieved they can launch a democratic movement to overturn this phenomenon. Indian Constitution guarantees all the rights and most of the lawmakers, legislators, judges are Hindus. It isn't like there is a crazy conspiracy going on to subjugate Tamil Hindus.

Hinduism has always been open to criticism and that is its greatest strength. Atheism and questioning are integral parts of our faith. And let's be honest there are many faults in the current version of our religion and it won't be a bad idea to have public discussions which can ultimately stir a wider debate at an intellectual level. I can't comment on Islam/Christianity, let followers of their faiths handle the matter. But at least in the developed world, Christianity is held to task. If religions aren't questioned it isn't right at least in my view.

Wao wao wao....Cannot believe what you saying. If rss converts someone by giving them money,you would say hindutva. Many illegal missionairies to convert people operates in india. And our bjp govt has seized illegal funds of many NGO . I really liked that move.
You guys are hypocritsy at its very best. You cannot comment on their faith because dude you wont be allowed to comment. Try that in your peaceful and liberal society.
If bjp had taken some church or mosque ,your reactions or your liberism would have come out.
We want equal rights and we will take that ,either by peace or by force. You cannot discriminate against us always and play victim card.

 

[JaDed]

I know missionaries are active in Tuticorin, Tirunelveli, Kanyakumari but what's the problem? Most of the converts are Dalits/poverty stricken people and if they believe they will lead better lives as Christians they must be allowed to convert. Human dignity and standard of life trumps religion, the missionaries provide them both, so what's the harm? Freedom of religion is enshrined in our Constitution and Hindu outfits are free to proselytize also. One of my childhood friends converted to Christianity along with his family. His family was extremely poor but the Church helped them financially, providing for the education of the children. Today they are well to do and the boy has become an empowered man with a great job. I met him at a school reunion a year back and he is still the same, he hasn't become an alien or something like that I can assure you.

Government taking over temples may also be a good thing in terms of social justice. If they can get lower caste people appointed as priests or treasurers maybe it will be more inclusive. Most Hindus don't have a problem with this. If people are aggrieved they can launch a democratic movement to overturn this phenomenon. Indian Constitution guarantees all the rights and most of the lawmakers, legislators, judges are Hindus. It isn't like there is a crazy conspiracy going on to subjugate Tamil Hindus.

Hinduism has always been open to criticism and that is its greatest strength. Atheism and questioning are integral parts of our faith. And let's be honest there are many faults in the current version of our religion and it won't be a bad idea to have public discussions which can ultimately stir a wider debate at an intellectual level. I can't comment on Islam/Christianity, let followers of their faiths handle the matter. But at least in the developed world, Christianity is held to task. If religions aren't questioned it isn't right at least in my view.

No one is saying it's wrong to question, but question all religion,and allow freedom of religion on every religion.

And Govn doesn't take over temples to create equality but for the funding and influence,it needs to treat all religions equally which TN govn has failed at all times,it needs to take over mosques and churches then.

DMK breaking idols, would it be ok if they vandalize churches,mosques?No there would hue and cry w.r.t same.

And true about conversion I agree with that point they should be allowed to convert, become atheist whatever, but my point is about freedom of religion and it's conversion, similar power should be given to Hindu organizations in TN ,but they are curtailed, the number of killings of Hindu Munani leaders from last 10 years is an example.

 

[JaDed]

This.For a hungry man, Food is his religion.And unlike Christians and Muslims, Temples belong to different sects and castes in Hinduism and hence you need a govt appointed board to govern them.In Kerala, caste organizations like SNDP and NSS run their own temples.

There are two sects in Islam and many Churches w.r.t diff sects ,they should be taken over in that logic.

Govn needs to stay away from religion, separation of CHURCH AND state.

 

[akki]

This.For a hungry man, Food is his religion.And unlike Christians and Muslims, Temples belong to different sects and castes in Hinduism and hence you need a govt appointed board to govern them.In Kerala, caste organizations like SNDP and NSS run their own temples.

I dnt think rss will have any lesser money to convert people and there are many many poor christians or mulims in india. You are not settting a right example.

The irony is india is first country where majority 80 percent hindus are against conversions and minority supports conversions. Even the hypocritsy would have done sucide by seeing this. And then people say democracy or freedom is in danger.

 

[DeadBall]

This.For a hungry man, Food is his religion.And unlike Christians and Muslims, Temples belong to different sects and castes in Hinduism and hence you need a govt appointed board to govern them.In Kerala, caste organizations like SNDP and NSS run their own temples.

True. At the end of the day when one's family are dying from hunger, religion is the last thing on one's mind. "Mother" Theresa is an abhorrent example of this.

 

[TM Riddle]

True. At the end of the day when one's family are dying from hunger, religion is the last thing on one's mind. "Mother" Theresa is an abhorrent example of this.

Problem is it's morally and ethically wrong as it's preys upon the other guy's vulnerabilities and ongoing circumstances.
Heck it's even illegal in India.
Under article 25 you are freely allowed to convert to other religion but coaxing someone esp weak and socially marginalized (done by various missionaries in tribal areas) to convert to your religion or forced conversions are legally banned in India.

And I would love to see the data to back up the claims made by our liberal Tamilian friend that these conversions improve the standard of life.

 

[Dingolfy]

There are two sects in Islam and many Churches w.r.t diff sects ,they should be taken over in that logic.

Govn needs to stay away from religion, separation of CHURCH AND state.

Sects in Islam and Christianity have their own churches and Masjids just like SnDp and Nss has their own temples.There are churches in Kerala who are under govt-appointed receiver because it is shared between two sects.

 

[Mamoon]

Tipu Sultan is a South Indian. He ruled the Kingdom of Mysore, which is basically South India.

Tipu Sultan wasn't a South Indian. He tried to capture Kerala but was driven back. He briefly annexed parts of Karnataka but was not able to sustain his control over them. He even sought the help of the French to gain control in Kochi, but he was unsuccessful because of the British.

 

[Dingolfy]

I dnt think rss will have any lesser money to convert people and there are many many poor christians or mulims in india. You are not settting a right example.

The irony is india is first country where majority 80 percent hindus are against conversions and minority supports conversions. Even the hypocritsy would have done sucide by seeing this. And then people say democracy or freedom is in danger.

Dude, you have no business in deciding in what somebody else is going to do in his private life.If RSS has money, let them do some conversion.Who gives a damn.If I was a dirt poor guy, I would accept any relgion who offers me food and money.

 

[Mamoon]

It's obvious that you have very little idea about the early medieval and later history of India ,old friend. Here let me be of some help to you.

You are right when you say that North was the first to face the Islamic incursions in the form of Arabic Invaders first and later Turkic invasions in Punjab and upper Ganga doab while South remained largely unmindful of all these events. There were several reasons behind that:

Firstly, Early Invaders were mostly raiders who had heard about the riches of Indo Gangetic valley and who didn't want to set up any permanent base in Hindustan. Thus they looted as much as they could and returned back to their homelands in Transoxiana and Khurasan. Prime example is Mahmud of Gahzna, an ambitious commander who between 999-1030 raided India multiple times (keep in mind when I say India here I include whole of the Punjab and KPK).

Secondly, even though Shahbuddin Gauri had ensured that Turks finally laid foundation of a permanent kingdom in Delhi, the early rulers of wrongly called 'slave dynasty' were wary of taking large expeditions in Hindustan on account of alien conditions, haughty Rajput resistance and the intra noble rivalry.
The last factor that is the factionalism among nobles as well as continous monhol incursions starting from the time of Iltutmish made sure that the Sultanate remained centred around Delhi and adjoining areas for the years to come even though a powerful Monarch like Balban ruled it in between these years.

The situation changed with the ascending of throne by Alauddin Khalji and here South India comes into the picture. Alauddin was an ambitious ruler who wasn't content with holding a mere fragment of land around Punjab. He embarked on an expedition to control most of the Hindustani mainland which took him beyond Vindhyas and eventually to the Southern India.

He first subjugated the powerful kingdom of Deogir in modern Maharashtra and later it's neighbor Warangal ruled by Kakatiyas. Later he ordered Malik Kafur, his favorite slave to raid lands till coromondal coast which he successfully did. Millions of people slaughterd, enslaved and converted (even though Alauddin wasn't big on the religion thing). Barani has written extensively about this quest gleefully describing the killings.
Except Hoysalas(who ruled area around modern Karnataka) almost whole South was taken under control of Khaljis.
And after downfall of Khalji empire , new Sultanates in Madurai and later near Krishna Tungbhadra doab which came to be known as Bahamani Sultanate were founded.

Thus South remained in the Muslim possession for around 200 years before the arrival of Mughals. Bahamani Sultanate got broken into 5 different individual Muslim empires who were later subjugated by Aurangzeb in his famous Deccan campaign.

Therefore your assessment about South chillaxing while North remained in turmoil is completely baseless since we have seen that Muslim dynasties started springing up in South as early as 13th century .

I don't see where the disagreement is. I am well aware of the history, but as I said earlier, I do not want to go into great detail because the thread has digressed already. I can write essays on the atrocities of the Muslim invaders, but I chose to keep it very brief.

I agree with what you said, and it is indeed true that Khilji's eunuch plundered the South and stole a lot of riches, but as I said, Muslim invaders were eventually repelled from the South, and after Khilji, the Mughals never managed to seize control.

You seem to have taken offense at the notion that the South have been more successful than the North and fending off invaders. I did not mean it in a condescending way. The North successfully managed to resist the Muslims for over four centuries before the invention of gun powder.

They were no less valiant than the South, but the latter's geographical location gave it an advantage.

 

[Mamoon]

Mamoon has been out of depth in this thread. He has made some pretty lame and ignorant claims such as quoting old lady's tales on Bin Qasim and now this comment on Tipu Sultan. I dont even feel like responding to his ignorance.

You can call it lame, but this is the true version of events that have been kept hidden from South Asian Muslims today. You can glorify the plunderer Muhammad Bin Qasim all you want, but he had no business invading Sindh.

We have been fed the narrative that Muslim rulers were liberated the region from the oppression of non-Muslims and never mistreated them, but those are nothing but lies.

It is clear from your contribution in this thread that you have not done any research and have not read any history on your own, which is why you are quick to belief the narrative that you have been fed from the people who have changed history to put Muslim invaders in a better light.

 

[DeadBall]

Problem is it's morally and ethically wrong as it's preys upon the other guy's vulnerabilities and ongoing circumstances.
Heck it's even illegal in India.
Under article 25 you are freely allowed to convert to other religion but coaxing someone esp weak and socially marginalized (done by various missionaries in tribal areas) to convert to your religion or forced conversions are legally banned in India.

And I would love to see the data to back up the claims made by our liberal Tamilian friend that these conversions improve the standard of life.

As per the initial point, morality and ethics are something one can afford to have when the stomach is not empty.

 

[ManFan]

You can call it lame, but this is the true version of events that have been kept hidden from South Asian Muslims today. You can glorify the plunderer Muhammad Bin Qasim all you want, but he had no business invading Sindh.

We have been fed the narrative that Muslim rulers were liberated the region from the oppression of non-Muslims and never mistreated them, but those are nothing but lies.

It is clear from your contribution in this thread that you have not done any research and have not read any history on your own, which is why you are quick to belief the narrative that you have been fed from the people who have changed history to put Muslim invaders in a better light.

I believe the rallying cry for the invasion of Sindh was that the Meds has pirated the sea ports of the Arabic and kidnapped Muslim women traveling to Sri Lanka.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

I don't see where the disagreement is. I am well aware of the history, but as I said earlier, I do not want to go into great detail because the thread has digressed already. I can write essays on the atrocities of the Muslim invaders, but I chose to keep it very brief.

I agree with what you said, and it is indeed true that Khilji's eunuch plundered the South and stole a lot of riches, but as I said, Muslim invaders were eventually repelled from the South, and after Khilji, the Mughals never managed to seize control.

You seem to have taken offense at the notion that the South have been more successful than the North and fending off invaders. I did not mean it in a condescending way. The North successfully managed to resist the Muslims for over four centuries before the invention of gun powder.

They were no less valiant than the South, but the latter's geographical location gave it an advantage.

Well the disagreement is where he tore apart all of your theory about south India.... like all of it.... can't see wood for the trees?

Learn a lesson for once and stop harping on about things just because it makes sense in your head.

 

[TM Riddle]

As per the initial point, morality and ethics are something one can afford to have when the stomach is not empty.

You didn't get my point. I'm not questioning the decision of poor and destitute to convert for a ek bori rice (yes it happens) but the deceitfulness, sly and unscrupulous intents of evangelists.

That's why these sort of conversions are frowned and looked down upon. They prey on the weak and poor just to gain more numbers for their religion. It's disgusting and rightly condemned by all.

 

[TM Riddle]

I don't see where the disagreement is. I am well aware of the history, but as I said earlier, I do not want to go into great detail because the thread has digressed already. I can write essays on the atrocities of the Muslim invaders, but I chose to keep it very brief.

I agree with what you said, and it is indeed true that Khilji's eunuch plundered the South and stole a lot of riches, but as I said, Muslim invaders were eventually repelled from the South, and after Khilji, the Mughals never managed to seize control.

You seem to have taken offense at the notion that the South have been more successful than the North and fending off invaders. I did not mean it in a condescending way. The North successfully managed to resist the Muslims for over four centuries before the invention of gun powder.

They were no less valiant than the South, but the latter's geographical location gave it an advantage.

Mamoon thats a big big lie on your part and honestly now I'm not even sure whether you have read anything about history of South India.
I urge you read more on Mughal campaigns in South and how after end of fierce resistance by Malik Ambar they managed to take almost all of South under their control (Shivaji and Marathas aside but thats a different topic altogether)

 

[Sirris]

Are you kidding me?

When the guy doesn't even know the time line of Islamic history how can he expect to be taken seriously.

 

[enkidu_]

Lot of appeasement attempts here. Every religion has its warlike traditions. I've never heard Hindu Kshatriyas claim victimization from Parashurama, an avatar of Vishnu, who did a complete eradication of them. Hindu scriptures are full of "heroic" figures, which are often warriors.

Bin Qasim's, etc have saved your soul [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] from hellfire and you're here arguing on tangential points just to sound like a subversive and liberal pseudo-intellectual. You talk of books but with the unsubstantial long posts you write here it's seem that you're more accustomed to write than read it. Otherwise read Thomas W. Arnold on the expansion of Islam in the Subcontinent, RM Eaton on the particular case of Bengal (and Punjab), where he says that the States the less submitted to a centralized Islamic power have seen the most conversions (so it has nothing to do with sword or jizzyah), also read Audrey Truschke's recent biography of Aurangzeb, as she shows that he wasn't much of the Hinduphobe portrayed by Indians, etc

 

[DeadBall]

You didn't get my point. I'm not questioning the decision of poor and destitute to convert for a ek bori rice (yes it happens) but the deceitfulness, sly and unscrupulous intents of evangelists.

That's why these sort of conversions are frowned and looked down upon. They prey on the weak and poor just to gain more numbers for their religion. It's disgusting and rightly condemned by all.

Oh ok. Africa is a prime and ironic example then. Now the "local" priests are looting the populace since the white man spread his divine message and left.

 

[TM Riddle]

Lot of appeasement attempts here. Every religion has its warlike traditions. I've never heard Hindu Kshatriyas claim victimization from Parashurama, an avatar of Vishnu, who did a complete eradication of them. Hindu scriptures are full of "heroic" figures, which are often warriors.

Bin Qasim's, etc have saved your soul [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] from hellfire and you're here arguing on tangential points just to sound like a subversive and liberal pseudo-intellectual. You talk of books but with the unsubstantial long posts you write here it's seem that you're more accustomed to write than read it. Otherwise read Thomas W. Arnold on the expansion of Islam in the Subcontinent, RM Eaton on the particular case of Bengal (and Punjab), where he says that the States the less submitted to a centralized Islamic power have seen the most conversions (so it has nothing to do with sword or jizzyah), also read Audrey Truschke's recent biography of Aurangzeb, as she shows that he wasn't much of the Hinduphobe portrayed by Indians, etc

I would like to have your opinion on Dara Shikoh since despite all your faults you still a bro.
Mind your I'm not really a fan of Alamgir with the way he treated Rajputs and went on a temple breaking spree which undid the hard work of his predecessors who worked hard to maintain the religious tolerance in their kingdom.

Anyway do you feel history of India would have taken a different turn had Dara Shikoh became a king instead of his jihadi younger brother?

 

[TM Riddle]

Oh ok. Africa is a prime and ironic example then. Now the "local" priests are looting the populace since the white man spread his divine message and left.

Same here among tribals in India.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Oh ok. Africa is a prime and ironic example then. Now the "local" priests are looting the populace since the white man spread his divine message and left.

This reminds me of Desmond tutu famous quote

"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land."

 

[enkidu_]

I would like to have your opinion on Dara Shikoh since despite all your faults you still a bro.
Mind your I'm not really a fan of Alamgir with the way he treated Rajputs and went on a temple breaking spree which undid the hard work of his predecessors who worked hard to maintain the religious tolerance in their kingdom.

Anyway do you feel history of India would have taken a different turn had Dara Shikoh became a king instead of his jihadi younger brother?

Dara Shikoh was an incompetent mystic.

 

[JaDed]

Sects in Islam and Christianity have their own churches and Masjids just like SnDp and Nss has their own temples.There are churches in Kerala who are under govt-appointed receiver because it is shared between two sects.

Why would Govn interfere in Hindu temples is what am saying, will govn interfere in matters of other religions, in TN they have taken over TEMPLE trusts ,but would never do that to Churches or Mosques.

 

[Musakhel]

Regarding the sword Imam Ghazali puts it eloquently in his book Al-iqtisad-fil- tiqad.

"The second group of people :a section that inclines away from the true belief, such as the blasphemers and deviant innovators.The averse and vulgar are among these ; those of weak minds that are stuck in blind imitation and are argumentative based on falsehood from the beginning of their lives until old age. Nothing works on this group except the whip and the sword. Most of the non Muslims became Muslims under the shadow of the sword , because Allāh does by the sword and the spear what He does not do by proofs and words. From this, if you read history ,you will not read about any battle between Muslims and blasphemers without there being some of them that become Muslims ,and you will not find a debate that did not just increase insistence and stubbornness. Do not think that this that we have mentioned reduces the status of the mind and its proofs . Rather, the enlightenment of the mind is a grace that Allāh does not grant anyone except a few of those who obey Him. The overwhelming state of creation is shortcoming and negligence, however , and due to their shortcoming , they do not sense the proofs of the mind, just as the sight of bats does not sense the light of the sun.”