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Kapil Dev vs Shahid Afridi - Who was the better all-rounder in ODIs?

Shahid bhai was a great player no doubt . But he could not win Pakistan a single 50 over World Cup :( Kapil somehow managed to do that and that too as captain.
 
Kindly recheck your stats.
Kapil has a bowling avg of 27 in SENAW.
While you are saying it is 32+.
Secondly what about shakib's bowling stats his stats show that he is nothing more than a parttimer in odis.

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As i said earlier, he wasn't in a disadvantageous position for bowling on Indian wickets. His poor record in helpful fast bowling condition of SENAW clearly indicates that. This was the main premise of my argument which u clearly failed to understand.
 

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Best Odi allrounders are

Jacques Kallis Batting avg 45 bowling avg 31
Lance Klusener Batting avg 41 bowling avg 29
Imran khan Batting avg 33 bowling avg 26

and not overhyped Kapil Dev.
 
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As i said earlier, he wasn't in a disadvantageous position for bowling on Indian wickets. His poor record in helpful fast bowling condition of SENAW clearly indicates that. This was the main premise of my argument which u clearly failed to understand.
I posted his combined bowling avg in SENAW countries,which is 27.
You have posted avgs in SENAW countries vs only these 5 teams so that is where the difference lies.
HIS BOWLING AVG IN SENAW COUNTRIES IS 27.
If you apply this filter than the no. Of matches get reduced to 51,while he has played 87 odis in SENAW countries.
 
Best Odi allrounders are

Jacques Kallis Batting avg 45 bowling avg 31
Lance Klusener Batting avg 41 bowling avg 29
Imran khan Batting avg 33 bowling avg 26

and not overhyped Kapil Dev.
From afridi to imran khan. Shows that this THREAD served you nothing.
 
Afridi and it isnt even that close. Afridi is the ultimate modern day, impact player. He was t20 before there was t20.
 
View attachment 83450

As i said earlier, he wasn't in a disadvantageous position for bowling on Indian wickets. His poor record in helpful fast bowling condition of SENAW clearly indicates that. This was the main premise of my argument which u clearly failed to understand.

When you get called out for your lies you resort to random and meaningless filters to bend reality.
 
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Pretty sure that was Jayasuriya.

Nope. AFridi was a better striker of the ball, in terms of SR AND how hard he could actually hit the ball. Sanaths SR of 91 is pedestrian to Afridi's 117, still unmatched in a career that long. Add to that being a superior fielder, a better bowler and a bigger star.
 
Why do Pakistani fans admire Afridi, a joke of a player during most of his career, so much even though their Nation has produced so many cricketing legends from Fazal Mehmood to Younis Khan?
 
Nope. AFridi was a better striker of the ball, in terms of SR AND how hard he could actually hit the ball. Sanaths SR of 91 is pedestrian to Afridi's 117, still unmatched in a career that long. Add to that being a superior fielder, a better bowler and a bigger star.

I can't even be bothered to show the stats against this statement anymore.

If you feel Afridi was a better all-arounder than Jayasurya, then good for you.

But you're wrong. That's all I'll say on this topic.
 
What a disgrace to one of all time great all rounder being compared with tolly baaz.
 
I can't even be bothered to show the stats against this statement anymore.

If you feel Afridi was a better all-arounder than Jayasurya, then good for you.

But you're wrong. That's all I'll say on this topic.
this is called super biased approach. Ignore it.. tull
 
When you get called out for your lies you resort to random and meaningless filters to bend reality.

I got disappointed after reading this post. I gave so many proofs but u guys r still stuck with ur false beliefs. Pls get out of ur lala land and accept the reality for once.

Can u tell me why these filterers r meaningless? They r exposing the mediocrity of Kapil, is that why u r so adamant in calling them meaningless?

How on earth someone can be called an atg all-rounder with an average of 19 with the bat and 32 with the ball away from home? U tell me. Don't get me wrong, but i think many tail-enders these days have better average than that with the bat.

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Lets say u have been given the job to select an all-rounder for ur team for the upcoming series. Whom would u prefer to be in ur team?

Would u prefer an all-rounder with an odi batting average of 23 along with odi bowling average of 27 and test batting average of 31 along with test bowling avg of 30

or

Would u prefer an all-rounder who averages of 35 with the bat, 29 with the ball in odis and 40 with the bat, 32 with the ball in tests? Give me an honest answer.

I m not even saying that Kapil was a bad bowler or something like that. I m just saying that its quite evident from their career stats that as an allrounder Kapil isn't in the league of Shakib. Nothing else.
 
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People hype the crap out of Kapil but he is barely better than Afridi.
 
Afridi's average against non-minnows:-

Bat avg: 22
Bowling avg:- 38

Kapil's average against non-minnows:-

Bat avg:- 23
Bowl avg:- 28

Shakib avg against non-minnows:-

Bat avg:- 32( SR:- 78)
Bowl Avg:- 37

In terms of bowling, Kapil is so far ahead of Afridi/Shakib that it is not even funny.

Case closed.
 
Afridi was an ATG T20 player though. I have witnessed some of his bowling spells that were nothing sort of magical, even though they were very few and far off but this thread is about odis.
 
Afridi's average against non-minnows:-

Bat avg: 22
Bowling avg:- 38

Kapil's average against non-minnows:-

Bat avg:- 23
Bowl avg:- 28

Shakib avg against non-minnows:-

Bat avg:- 32( SR:- 78)
Bowl Avg:- 37

In terms of bowling, Kapil is so far ahead of Afridi/Shakib that it is not even funny.

Case closed.
Potw
Its a blasphemy to type the name of the joke of a player like Shakib along the likes of kapil...there are galaxies apart
 
Why do Pakistani fans admire Afridi, a joke of a player during most of his career, so much even though their Nation has produced so many cricketing legends from Fazal Mehmood to Younis Khan?

Can't say much about other Pakistanis but me personally: I always admired Afridi's attitude, on and off the field. He's kind of guy who never fears calling spade a spade, no matter the situation :P. Hard to explain in words, he's Pakistan's last greatest superstar.

PS: This thread has potential to reach 5 pages :yk
 
Ouch first Kapil vs Afridi, Pakistani fans surely know how to rile up our indian brothers.

However Pakistani fans here came second best and our overtaken by our Bangla bros who turned this into Kapil vs Shakib and made indian fans forget all about the Afridi comparison.
 
Why do Pakistani fans admire Afridi, a joke of a player during most of his career, so much even though their Nation has produced so many cricketing legends from Fazal Mehmood to Younis Khan?

Beats me. Any other country would have kicked this slogger out after tolerating him for an year at the most.
 
I can't even be bothered to show the stats against this statement anymore.

If you feel Afridi was a better all-arounder than Jayasurya, then good for you.

But you're wrong. That's all I'll say on this topic.

What do you mean? What stats show Sanath could strike the ball harder? Which stats show that Sanath can score faster? I made the statement that Afridi was the first modern cricketer, T20 before T20. You stated Sanath was but the key number here, being the strike rate, does not match. Heck, most can't even match AFridi in ODIs to this day.

Who was the better all rounder is a very different discussion. But that is not what you originally responded to, so if you can't back up what you claim, please stay in your lane.
 
What do you mean? What stats show Sanath could strike the ball harder? Which stats show that Sanath can score faster? I made the statement that Afridi was the first modern cricketer, T20 before T20. You stated Sanath was but the key number here, being the strike rate, does not match. Heck, most can't even match AFridi in ODIs to this day.

Who was the better all rounder is a very different discussion. But that is not what you originally responded to, so if you can't back up what you claim, please stay in your lane.

Afridi's SR of 110+ is thanks to many Innings of 10-15 in 5 balls.

That's not a T20 player. That's just a slogger. Jayasuriya consistently played proper T20 innings - the kind of T20 innings that we recognise today.

Of course Afridi went on to become a very good T20 player. But Jayasuriya was playing proper T20 innings before Afridi had even established himself as an international player.

You will find tailenders from the 2000s that also have a 100+ SR. That doesn't mean that they were playing T20 cricket. T20 isn't just about SR.
 
What do you mean? What stats show Sanath could strike the ball harder? Which stats show that Sanath can score faster? I made the statement that Afridi was the first modern cricketer, T20 before T20. You stated Sanath was but the key number here, being the strike rate, does not match. Heck, most can't even match AFridi in ODIs to this day.


Who was the better all rounder is a very different discussion. But that is not what you originally responded to, so if you can't back up what you claim, please stay in your lane.

Of course. How many cricketers will survive two decades in international cricket with ab average of 22.
 
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Afridi should only be compared with bits and pieces cricketers which PM Imran calls railu kattay and patheechar.
 
Afridi's average against non-minnows:-

Bat avg: 22
Bowling avg:- 38

Kapil's average against non-minnows:-

Bat avg:- 23
Bowl avg:- 28

Shakib avg against non-minnows:-

Bat avg:- 32( SR:- 78)
Bowl Avg:- 37

In terms of bowling, Kapil is so far ahead of Afridi/Shakib that it is not even funny.

Case closed.

Was kapil a better bowler than Shakib? Sure he was. But we aren't talking about about who's the better bowler here, we r talkig about who's the better allrounder.

Kapil was miserable with the bat almost everywhere. He averages 19 away from home whereas shakib averages 10/15 runs more than him. Shakib as a batsman is leagues above Kapil Dev.

Therefore, ur attempt to close the case was bit premature I believe.

Then compare their test perfomances as an allrounder in tests. I know this thread isn't about tests. But still consider that format just to get an idea about wfi us the better allrounder in general. Shakib is excellent with the bat across all formats and a great bowler especially under favorable condition(just like all the other spinners).
 
Was kapil a better bowler than Shakib? Sure he was. But we aren't talking about about who's the better bowler here, we r talkig about who's the better allrounder.

Kapil was miserable with the bat almost everywhere. <B>He averages 19 away from home whereas shakib averages 10/15 runs more than him.</B> Shakib as a batsman is leagues above Kapil Dev.

Therefore, ur attempt to close the case was bit premature I believe.

Then compare their test perfomances as an allrounder in tests. I know this thread isn't about tests. But still consider that format just to get an idea about wfi us the better allrounder in general. Shakib is excellent with the bat across all formats and a great bowler especially under favorable condition(just like all the other spinners).

I dont know where you get that 19 average. Here is their away record in ODIs:-

Kapil dev :-

Batting average:- 23 SR:- 93.08
Bowling average:- 27.65 Econ:- 3.56

Shakib-Al-Hasan:-

Batting average:- 34 SR:- 77
Bowl average:- 40.71 Econ:- 4.93

While I agree it has been harder for bowlers in this era, the difference is still quite big between the two with the bowl.

Now coming to the main point with the bat, Kapil averages 23 at SR 93 while Shakib averages 34 but at a not so good SR of 77. It was tougher for batsmen too in that era just like it is bowlers for this era.

If Shakib would have played in that era, he would have been averaging 32 at a Strike Rate of 65. Kapil averages 23 but at a Strike Rate of 93 away from home. So, it depends on whom you pick with the bat. If I have to make them bat at 7, surely I will put a guy who can strike quite big. So, in that regard, Kapil wins as a batsmen as well and the difference is quite massive with the bowl.
 
Now coming to the main point with the bat, Kapil averages 23 at SR 93 while Shakib averages 34 but at a not so good SR of 77. It was tougher for batsmen too in that era just like it is bowlers for this era.

If Shakib would have played in that era, he would have been averaging 32 at a Strike Rate of 65. Kapil averages 23 but at a Strike Rate of 93 away from home. So, it depends on whom you pick with the bat. If I have to make them bat at 7, surely I will put a guy who can strike quite big. So, in that regard, Kapil wins as a batsmen as well and the difference is quite massive with the bowl.

It's harder to normalize different eras, but here is ICC ODI batting rating trend for both ,

ODI rating bating.jpg
 
It's harder to normalize different eras, but here is ICC ODI batting rating trend for both ,

View attachment 83569

Kapil's highest ranking was 6 with the bat which is generally considered as a weaker suit for him. Clearly, the claim that he wasnt capable with the bat is completely false. Those rankings and ratings actually show the kind of impact he had towards the game in that era.

You dont need or expect a no.7 to score a hundred in ODIs. In tests, you need it though and he has got 8 hundreds to his credit. Phenomenal all-rounder really.

An Indian great with the bowl and an ATG as an all-rounder in both formats of the game.
 
I'm pretty disappointed with this forum sometimes tbh. Kapil is atleast 10 times the cricketer that Afridi could have ever hoped to be. Kapil was the main strike bowler for a team that had virtually no bowlers besides him. Afridi was the 5th-6th bowling option in a team that had players like Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Amir, Asif, Saqlain, Ajmal etc etc in the line up. Also, it's pretty hilarious to compare Afridi's batting average with Kapil considering the fact that in Kapil's time even highly established batsmen like Allan Border, Steve Waugh, Aravinda De Silva, Richie Richardson, Sunil Gavaskar, Mike Gatting etc etc averaged in the early 30s and even below. In that regard, Kapil's stats as a batsman of 24/95 are very credible for a lower order bat.

Kapil is one of the most impactful cricketers of all time. Afridi was, is and will always be remembered as a bilind slogger who could bowl a bit. End of the story.
 
I'm pretty disappointed with this forum sometimes tbh. Kapil is atleast 10 times the cricketer that Afridi could have ever hoped to be. Kapil was the main strike bowler for a team that had virtually no bowlers besides him. Afridi was the 5th-6th bowling option in a team that had players like Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Amir, Asif, Saqlain, Ajmal etc etc in the line up. Also, it's pretty hilarious to compare Afridi's batting average with Kapil considering the fact that in Kapil's time even highly established batsmen like Allan Border, Steve Waugh, Aravinda De Silva, Richie Richardson, Sunil Gavaskar, Mike Gatting etc etc averaged in the early 30s and even below. In that regard, Kapil's stats as a batsman of 24/95 are very credible for a lower order bat.

Kapil is one of the most impactful cricketers of all time. Afridi was, is and will always be remembered as a bilind slogger who could bowl a bit. End of the story.

How do you see Kapil vs Shakib comparison brother? :srini
 
Afridi is probably the biggest meme cricketer of all time,basically did nothing except the occasional performance,blind low iq slogger with the bat,mediocre bowler no better than say mushtaq ahmad.Still revered amongst his countryman as a superstar.He mind****ed pakistan.:afridi1
 
I'm pretty disappointed with this forum sometimes tbh. Kapil is atleast 10 times the cricketer that Afridi could have ever hoped to be. Kapil was the main strike bowler for a team that had virtually no bowlers besides him. Afridi was the 5th-6th bowling option in a team that had players like Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Amir, Asif, Saqlain, Ajmal etc etc in the line up. Also, it's pretty hilarious to compare Afridi's batting average with Kapil considering the fact that in Kapil's time even highly established batsmen like Allan Border, Steve Waugh, Aravinda De Silva, Richie Richardson, Sunil Gavaskar, Mike Gatting etc etc averaged in the early 30s and even below. In that regard, Kapil's stats as a batsman of 24/95 are very credible for a lower order bat.

Kapil is one of the most impactful cricketers of all time. Afridi was, is and will always be remembered as a bilind slogger who could bowl a bit. End of the story.

This is ridiculous.

There is a definite comparison to be made. Afridi was a huge match winner, his sheer number of MOM awards attests to that, as does the fact that he played key roles in winning a world t20 and an Asia Cup. If we were talking about tests then fair enough but as a limited overs cricketer, Afridi is right up there with the very best.
 
This is ridiculous.

There is a definite comparison to be made. Afridi was a huge match winner, his sheer number of MOM awards attests to that, as does the fact that he played key roles in winning a world t20 and an Asia Cup. If we were talking about tests then fair enough but as a limited overs cricketer, Afridi is right up there with the very best.

These are Afridi's bowling stats against the Top teams:

v India: 38 wickets at 60.52
v SA : 37 wickets at 40.70
v NZ: 30 wickets at 41.93
v SL: 67 wickets at 37.44
v WI: 41 wickets at 31.04
v Aus: 49 wickets at 32.44

Only against England does he average below 30. In contrast. Kapil averaged below 30 with the ball against every country barring SA against whom he averaged 31.


Afridi is the biggest minnow basher with the ball in ODI history, and I sincerely hope nobody rates his batting anyway.

It's a no contest in favor of Kapil.
 
This is ridiculous.

There is a definite comparison to be made. Afridi was a huge match winner, his sheer number of MOM awards attests to that, as does the fact that he played key roles in winning a world t20 and an Asia Cup. If we were talking about tests then fair enough but as a limited overs cricketer, Afridi is right up there with the very best.

I think you are confusing a performance after every 25 games to consistently being abysmal in other 24.

But then again, in a team like Pakistan where miraculous happenings are the only way for us to go forward, its not surprising how you rate Afridi.

The other day you did rant about how you have followed my posts and they are useless.

Guess the joke is on you now, rating someone who was more a comedian than a cricketer.
 
I think you are confusing a performance after every 25 games to consistently being abysmal in other 24.

But then again, in a team like Pakistan where miraculous happenings are the only way for us to go forward, its not surprising how you rate Afridi.

The other day you did rant about how you have followed my posts and they are useless.

Guess the joke is on you now, rating someone who was more a comedian than a cricketer.

There is no doubt that Kapil vs Afridi in not much of a comparison, but I do not agree with the argument that you have presented, i.e. he performs once in 25 games.

Every player fails more than they succeed, and in a 20 year career, the percentage of failure will always be very high.

With this logic, you can make any player look bad. I will use an outlandish example to get my point across - Tendulkar scored less than 50 runs in 307 out of the 452 innings that he played.

Most players don’t get to play 307 ODIs, but Tendulkar actually failed in that many games. Hence, one of the greatest batsmen in history has a failure rate of nearly 70%, and he did not contribute much without the bat either.

You can do the math for any great player with a long career, and you will find that their rate of failure was high.

The calculations for Afridi are more complicated, not just because he was an all-rounder whose weaker suit was better than Tendulkar’s weaker suit and who was a better fielder as well, but because of his extraordinary strike rate (which batsmen are still struggling to match), and because of his batting position - his low scores usually had more impact than Tendulkar’s low scores, so if we take all these factors into consideration, the failure rate of Afridi is not necessarily going to be higher than the failure rate of Tendulkar.

The lesson that we can learn from this is that looking at the percentage of failures of a player and the x number of times he failed in y number of games is futile - the legacy and the greatness of a player is measured by how often he succeeds, and how he succeeds, and that is why someone like Tendulkar is leagues above Afridi.

Afridi was actually a really good Limited Overs cricketer. He could run through lineups in the right conditions, he could field anywhere and he averaged in the early 20s at a strike rate that was about 30 points higher than what was considered a good strike rate in his era, and around 40 points higher than what was the average strike rate in his era.

He was a very high-impact player, and apart from Australia and India, he would have made any ODI team in the 90s and 2000s.

Australia and India had quality spinners and quality batting lineups, and had batsmen who could hit big, but apart from the likes of Warne, Muralitharan, Kumble, his competition was players like Giles, Boje, Chandana, Dharmasena, Symcox, Arthurton etc., and he was better than them.

Even Brad Hogg, who was marginally better with the ball but couldn’t bat played over a 100 ODIs for Australia when they were extremely strong.

Afridi’s biggest problem was the he was not adaptable. He didn’t have the capacity or the ability to grind down and play according to the situation - his brand of cricket was luxurious, and since Pakistan’s batting was shaky throughout his career, he often became a liability.

Another big factor why he falls short of the league of legendary ODI cricketers is because his bowling lacked bite against quality lineups. He didn’t get smashed, but he couldn’t run through the top teams like he could against the weaker ones. In many ways, he was a minnow basher.

However, partly because of his attitude and other problems, he gets over the top criticism. He was not a comedian and nor was he a pathetic player. He was clearly a very good and high impact Limited Overs player, who would have made most teams of his era in his pomp, but was often a misfit for Pakistan.
 
There is no doubt that Kapil vs Afridi in not much of a comparison, but I do not agree with the argument that you have presented, i.e. he performs once in 25 games.

Every player fails more than they succeed, and in a 20 year career, the percentage of failure will always be very high.

With this logic, you can make any player look bad. I will use an outlandish example to get my point across - Tendulkar scored less than 50 runs in 307 out of the 452 innings that he played.

Most players don’t get to play 307 ODIs, but Tendulkar actually failed in that many games. Hence, one of the greatest batsmen in history has a failure rate of nearly 70%, and he did not contribute much without the bat either.

You can do the math for any great player with a long career, and you will find that their rate of failure was high.

The calculations for Afridi are more complicated, not just because he was an all-rounder whose weaker suit was better than Tendulkar’s weaker suit and who was a better fielder as well, but because of his extraordinary strike rate (which batsmen are still struggling to match), and because of his batting position - his low scores usually had more impact than Tendulkar’s low scores, so if we take all these factors into consideration, the failure rate of Afridi is not necessarily going to be higher than the failure rate of Tendulkar.

The lesson that we can learn from this is that looking at the percentage of failures of a player and the x number of times he failed in y number of games is futile - the legacy and the greatness of a player is measured by how often he succeeds, and how he succeeds, and that is why someone like Tendulkar is leagues above Afridi.

Afridi was actually a really good Limited Overs cricketer. He could run through lineups in the right conditions, he could field anywhere and he averaged in the early 20s at a strike rate that was about 30 points higher than what was considered a good strike rate in his era, and around 40 points higher than what was the average strike rate in his era.

He was a very high-impact player, and apart from Australia and India, he would have made any ODI team in the 90s and 2000s.

Australia and India had quality spinners and quality batting lineups, and had batsmen who could hit big, but apart from the likes of Warne, Muralitharan, Kumble, his competition was players like Giles, Boje, Chandana, Dharmasena, Symcox, Arthurton etc., and he was better than them.

Even Brad Hogg, who was marginally better with the ball but couldn’t bat played over a 100 ODIs for Australia when they were extremely strong.

Afridi’s biggest problem was the he was not adaptable. He didn’t have the capacity or the ability to grind down and play according to the situation - his brand of cricket was luxurious, and since Pakistan’s batting was shaky throughout his career, he often became a liability.

Another big factor why he falls short of the league of legendary ODI cricketers is because his bowling lacked bite against quality lineups. He didn’t get smashed, but he couldn’t run through the top teams like he could against the weaker ones. In many ways, he was a minnow basher.

However, partly because of his attitude and other problems, he gets over the top criticism. He was not a comedian and nor was he a pathetic player. He was clearly a very good and high impact Limited Overs player, who would have made most teams of his era in his pomp, but was often a misfit for Pakistan.

Do you think that Afridi would find a place in the South African team of the 90s? They had Lance Klusener who was 10 times the cricketer Afridi could ever hope to be.
 
Do you think that Afridi would find a place in the South African team of the 90s? They had Lance Klusener who was 10 times the cricketer Afridi could ever hope to be.

Afridi and Klusener were not in competition. The likes of Symcox and Boje were regular ODI players in the 90s and 2000s, and Afridi was better than both. So yes Afridi would have found a place in the 90s and early 2000s South African team.

Afridi ended his career very poorly, but he had a lot of value till 2011. However, from 2012 to 2016, he was terrible.
 
There is no doubt that Kapil vs Afridi in not much of a comparison, but I do not agree with the argument that you have presented, i.e. he performs once in 25 games.

Every player fails more than they succeed, and in a 20 year career, the percentage of failure will always be very high.

With this logic, you can make any player look bad. I will use an outlandish example to get my point across - Tendulkar scored less than 50 runs in 307 out of the 452 innings that he played.

Most players don’t get to play 307 ODIs, but Tendulkar actually failed in that many games. Hence, one of the greatest batsmen in history has a failure rate of nearly 70%, and he did not contribute much without the bat either.

You can do the math for any great player with a long career, and you will find that their rate of failure was high.

The calculations for Afridi are more complicated, not just because he was an all-rounder whose weaker suit was better than Tendulkar’s weaker suit and who was a better fielder as well, but because of his extraordinary strike rate (which batsmen are still struggling to match), and because of his batting position - his low scores usually had more impact than Tendulkar’s low scores, so if we take all these factors into consideration, the failure rate of Afridi is not necessarily going to be higher than the failure rate of Tendulkar.

The lesson that we can learn from this is that looking at the percentage of failures of a player and the x number of times he failed in y number of games is futile - the legacy and the greatness of a player is measured by how often he succeeds, and how he succeeds, and that is why someone like Tendulkar is leagues above Afridi.

Afridi was actually a really good Limited Overs cricketer. He could run through lineups in the right conditions, he could field anywhere and he averaged in the early 20s at a strike rate that was about 30 points higher than what was considered a good strike rate in his era, and around 40 points higher than what was the average strike rate in his era.

He was a very high-impact player, and apart from Australia and India, he would have made any ODI team in the 90s and 2000s.

Australia and India had quality spinners and quality batting lineups, and had batsmen who could hit big, but apart from the likes of Warne, Muralitharan, Kumble, his competition was players like Giles, Boje, Chandana, Dharmasena, Symcox, Arthurton etc., and he was better than them.

Even Brad Hogg, who was marginally better with the ball but couldn’t bat played over a 100 ODIs for Australia when they were extremely strong.

Afridi’s biggest problem was the he was not adaptable. He didn’t have the capacity or the ability to grind down and play according to the situation - his brand of cricket was luxurious, and since Pakistan’s batting was shaky throughout his career, he often became a liability.

Another big factor why he falls short of the league of legendary ODI cricketers is because his bowling lacked bite against quality lineups. He didn’t get smashed, but he couldn’t run through the top teams like he could against the weaker ones. In many ways, he was a minnow basher.

However, partly because of his attitude and other problems, he gets over the top criticism. He was not a comedian and nor was he a pathetic player. He was clearly a very good and high impact Limited Overs player, who would have made most teams of his era in his pomp, but was often a misfit for Pakistan.

His ability to run through a side with the ball actually only cane to the fore around 2004 onwards. Between 96 and 2003, Afridi was probably the least impactful cricketer playing international cricket for so long. Back then his main suit was considered to be batting and even then his performances were few and far between. Between 2004-2011 , he remodelled himself as a bowling all-rounder and I agree that he was impactful overall in this period. However, in this thread hw is being compared to one of the ATG all-rounders and him being better than the likes of boje, symcox is hardly good enough to consider him among the atg all-rounders.
 
His ability to run through a side with the ball actually only cane to the fore around 2004 onwards. Between 96 and 2003, Afridi was probably the least impactful cricketer playing international cricket for so long. Back then his main suit was considered to be batting and even then his performances were few and far between. Between 2004-2011 , he remodelled himself as a bowling all-rounder and I agree that he was impactful overall in this period. However, in this thread hw is being compared to one of the ATG all-rounders and him being better than the likes of boje, symcox is hardly good enough to consider him among the atg all-rounders.

Yes, Afridi was basically a part-timer with the ball till 2004. He improved his bowling since 2004 though and was very impactful between 2004-11.

Also, many confuse his T20 performance with ODIs and start calling him a brilliant all-rounder. His legacy if we consider only ODIs is not much to talk about.
 
His ability to run through a side with the ball actually only cane to the fore around 2004 onwards. Between 96 and 2003, Afridi was probably the least impactful cricketer playing international cricket for so long. Back then his main suit was considered to be batting and even then his performances were few and far between. Between 2004-2011 , he remodelled himself as a bowling all-rounder and I agree that he was impactful overall in this period. However, in this thread hw is being compared to one of the ATG all-rounders and him being better than the likes of boje, symcox is hardly good enough to consider him among the atg all-rounders.

Of course he is not an all-time great, but some people could with ridiculous logics to prove that he was a rubbish, comedian cricketer which he clearly was not.

Afridi between 1996 and 2003 was misused by Pakistan, who converted him into an opener because of that fluke hundred in Kenya in a pint-sized ground.

He was never capable enough to be an opener, but a batsman who averaged in the 20s at a strike rate of 110 at a time when a strike rate of 70 was the norm would have been very useful down the order, especially when he could bowl and field really well.

If people want to categorize Afridi as a utility or a bits and pieces player, then he is by far the greatest utility/bits and pieces player of all time.
 
There is no doubt that Kapil vs Afridi in not much of a comparison, but I do not agree with the argument that you have presented, i.e. he performs once in 25 games.

Every player fails more than they succeed, and in a 20 year career, the percentage of failure will always be very high.

With this logic, you can make any player look bad. I will use an outlandish example to get my point across - Tendulkar scored less than 50 runs in 307 out of the 452 innings that he played.

Most players don’t get to play 307 ODIs, but Tendulkar actually failed in that many games. Hence, one of the greatest batsmen in history has a failure rate of nearly 70%, and he did not contribute much without the bat either.

You can do the math for any great player with a long career, and you will find that their rate of failure was high.

The calculations for Afridi are more complicated, not just because he was an all-rounder whose weaker suit was better than Tendulkar’s weaker suit and who was a better fielder as well, but because of his extraordinary strike rate (which batsmen are still struggling to match), and because of his batting position - his low scores usually had more impact than Tendulkar’s low scores, so if we take all these factors into consideration, the failure rate of Afridi is not necessarily going to be higher than the failure rate of Tendulkar.

The lesson that we can learn from this is that looking at the percentage of failures of a player and the x number of times he failed in y number of games is futile - the legacy and the greatness of a player is measured by how often he succeeds, and how he succeeds, and that is why someone like Tendulkar is leagues above Afridi.

Afridi was actually a really good Limited Overs cricketer. He could run through lineups in the right conditions, he could field anywhere and he averaged in the early 20s at a strike rate that was about 30 points higher than what was considered a good strike rate in his era, and around 40 points higher than what was the average strike rate in his era.

He was a very high-impact player, and apart from Australia and India, he would have made any ODI team in the 90s and 2000s.

Australia and India had quality spinners and quality batting lineups, and had batsmen who could hit big, but apart from the likes of Warne, Muralitharan, Kumble, his competition was players like Giles, Boje, Chandana, Dharmasena, Symcox, Arthurton etc., and he was better than them.

Even Brad Hogg, who was marginally better with the ball but couldn’t bat played over a 100 ODIs for Australia when they were extremely strong.

Afridi’s biggest problem was the he was not adaptable. He didn’t have the capacity or the ability to grind down and play according to the situation - his brand of cricket was luxurious, and since Pakistan’s batting was shaky throughout his career, he often became a liability.

Another big factor why he falls short of the league of legendary ODI cricketers is because his bowling lacked bite against quality lineups. He didn’t get smashed, but he couldn’t run through the top teams like he could against the weaker ones. In many ways, he was a minnow basher.

However, partly because of his attitude and other problems, he gets over the top criticism. He was not a comedian and nor was he a pathetic player. He was clearly a very good and high impact Limited Overs player, who would have made most teams of his era in his pomp, but was often a misfit for Pakistan.

POTW - very well explained.
 
Of course he is not an all-time great, but some people could with ridiculous logics to prove that he was a rubbish, comedian cricketer which he clearly was not.

Afridi between 1996 and 2003 was misused by Pakistan, who converted him into an opener because of that fluke hundred in Kenya in a pint-sized ground.

He was never capable enough to be an opener, but a batsman who averaged in the 20s at a strike rate of 110 at a time when a strike rate of 70 was the norm would have been very useful down the order, especially when he could bowl and field really well.

If people want to categorize Afridi as a utility or a bits and pieces player, then he is by far the greatest utility/bits and pieces player of all time.

This I can agree with. His overall stats are very poor but he did indeed merit a spot in the Pakistan team during the 2004-11 period and was a vital cog of that team.
 
Yes, Afridi was basically a part-timer with the ball till 2004. He improved his bowling since 2004 though and was very impactful between 2004-11.

Also, many confuse his T20 performance with ODIs and start calling him a brilliant all-rounder. His legacy if we consider only ODIs is not much to talk about.

Afridi’s real worth as a player is often lost between two extremes - he was not the legendary ATG cricketer that his fans think, but neither was he the awful player that his detractors make him look to be.

For around 10-15 years, he was one of the best players in his position/role. Apart from Warne, Muralitharan and Kumble, most spinners of his time were more or less at the same level with the ball, or perhaps slightly better, but they were tailenders.

He was always a talented bowler, and it is not a coincidence that his bowling improved as soon as he started to play as a specialist spinner who could whack the ball, and that should always have been his role.

Pakistan tried very hard to mould into a hard hitting opening batsman who could blow away the opposition, basically their own version of Jayasuriya, but he was nowhere near that caliber.

He made it to the national team based on his bowling, but that one innings changed the perception of the PCB and and the general public of who he was as a player, and it dented his career considerably.
 
Of course he is not an all-time great, but some people could with ridiculous logics to prove that he was a rubbish, comedian cricketer which he clearly was not.

Afridi between 1996 and 2003 was misused by Pakistan, who converted him into an opener because of that fluke hundred in Kenya in a pint-sized ground.

He was never capable enough to be an opener, but a batsman who averaged in the 20s at a strike rate of 110 at a time when a strike rate of 70 was the norm would have been very useful down the order, especially when he could bowl and field really well.

If people want to categorize Afridi as a utility or a bits and pieces player, then he is by far the greatest utility/bits and pieces player of all time.

I felt Afridi was quite talented with the bat. It is not as easy to hit fastest hundred vs Vaas and Murali. He showed that glimpse there itself.But he just didnt applied enough with the bat and kept his brain away in the dressing room when he came to bat, which is why people are labelling him as a comedian kind of cricketer.

He could have been the McCullum level with the bat for Pak, also being equally effective bowler. He was a spin bowler, so workload shouldn't have been of much issue.

If Afridi would have played for any top team and played the way cricket should be played, he would have become a 30 averaging batsmen and still being as good with the bowl.
 
Afridi’s real worth as a player is often lost between two extremes - he was not the legendary ATG cricketer that his fans think, but neither was he the awful player that his detractors make him look to be.

For around 10-15 years, he was one of the best players in his position/role. Apart from Warne, Muralitharan and Kumble, most spinners of his time were more or less at the same level with the ball, or perhaps slightly better, but they were tailenders.

He was always a talented bowler, and it is not a coincidence that his bowling improved as soon as he started to play as a specialist spinner who could whack the ball, and that should always have been his role.

Pakistan tried very hard to mould into a hard hitting opening batsman who could blow away the opposition, basically their own version of Jayasuriya, but he was nowhere near that caliber.

He made it to the national team based on his bowling, but that one innings changed the perception of the PCB and and the general public of who he was as a player, and it dented his career considerably.

He was talented enough with the bat as well IMO. He didnt applied his brain in the right way. If he played as per the team requirement, he had the potential to be an ATG all-rounder.
 
I felt Afridi was quite talented with the bat. It is not as easy to hit fastest hundred vs Vaas and Murali. He showed that glimpse there itself.But he just didnt applied enough with the bat and kept his brain away in the dressing room when he came to bat, which is why people are labelling him as a comedian kind of cricketer.

He could have been the McCullum level with the bat for Pak, also being equally effective bowler. He was a spin bowler, so workload shouldn't have been of much issue.

If Afridi would have played for any top team and played the way cricket should be played, he would have become a 30 averaging batsmen and still being as good with the bowl.

Afridi was a very talented striker, but there is more to batting than that. His defensive technique and mentality was poor, and it was the main reason why he could not play according to the situation.

I remember the hundred against India in Kanpur in 2005, where he beat the living daylights out of Zaheer, Pathan and Harbhajan en route to a 45 ball ton, but he was clean bowled on the very first delivery he tried to defend.

I don’t think he could have averaged around 30-35 at a strike rate of 85-90. A slogger like him could not do that.
 
Afridi was a very talented striker, but there is more to batting than that. <B>His defensive technique and mentality was poor, and it was the main reason why he could not play according to the situation</B>.

I remember the hundred against India in Kanpur in 2005, where he beat the living daylights out of Zaheer, Pathan and Harbhajan en route to a 45 ball ton, but he was clean bowled on the very first delivery he tried to defend.

I don’t think he could have averaged around 30-35 at a strike rate of 85-90. A slogger like him could not do that.

I got your point but it is something he could have learned over the years. I have seen many players improve their defensive game and learned to bat according to the situation.

You dont need your defensive game to be tight enough to average 30 at a Strike Rate of 90. It was just about sticking to your strategy, plans and still be a naturally attacking batsmen.

He was a once-in-a-generation cricketer who could have been an ATG level for Pakistan.

Yes, he may not be as entertaining cricketer as much as he has been over his career but would have still been a lot more valuable.
 
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There is no doubt that Kapil vs Afridi in not much of a comparison, but I do not agree with the argument that you have presented, i.e. he performs once in 25 games.

Every player fails more than they succeed, and in a 20 year career, the percentage of failure will always be very high.

With this logic, you can make any player look bad. I will use an outlandish example to get my point across - Tendulkar scored less than 50 runs in 307 out of the 452 innings that he played.

Most players don’t get to play 307 ODIs, but Tendulkar actually failed in that many games. Hence, one of the greatest batsmen in history has a failure rate of nearly 70%, and he did not contribute much without the bat either.

You can do the math for any great player with a long career, and you will find that their rate of failure was high.

The calculations for Afridi are more complicated, not just because he was an all-rounder whose weaker suit was better than Tendulkar’s weaker suit and who was a better fielder as well, but because of his extraordinary strike rate (which batsmen are still struggling to match), and because of his batting position - his low scores usually had more impact than Tendulkar’s low scores, so if we take all these factors into consideration, the failure rate of Afridi is not necessarily going to be higher than the failure rate of Tendulkar.

The lesson that we can learn from this is that looking at the percentage of failures of a player and the x number of times he failed in y number of games is futile - the legacy and the greatness of a player is measured by how often he succeeds, and how he succeeds, and that is why someone like Tendulkar is leagues above Afridi.

Afridi was actually a really good Limited Overs cricketer. He could run through lineups in the right conditions, he could field anywhere and he averaged in the early 20s at a strike rate that was about 30 points higher than what was considered a good strike rate in his era, and around 40 points higher than what was the average strike rate in his era.

He was a very high-impact player, and apart from Australia and India, he would have made any ODI team in the 90s and 2000s.

Australia and India had quality spinners and quality batting lineups, and had batsmen who could hit big, but apart from the likes of Warne, Muralitharan, Kumble, his competition was players like Giles, Boje, Chandana, Dharmasena, Symcox, Arthurton etc., and he was better than them.

Even Brad Hogg, who was marginally better with the ball but couldn’t bat played over a 100 ODIs for Australia when they were extremely strong.

Afridi’s biggest problem was the he was not adaptable. He didn’t have the capacity or the ability to grind down and play according to the situation - his brand of cricket was luxurious, and since Pakistan’s batting was shaky throughout his career, he often became a liability.

Another big factor why he falls short of the league of legendary ODI cricketers is because his bowling lacked bite against quality lineups. He didn’t get smashed, but he couldn’t run through the top teams like he could against the weaker ones. In many ways, he was a minnow basher.

However, partly because of his attitude and other problems, he gets over the top criticism. He was not a comedian and nor was he a pathetic player. He was clearly a very good and high impact Limited Overs player, who would have made most teams of his era in his pomp, but was often a misfit for Pakistan.

I can see how you would rate him because he was the last of die hard fighter spirit cricketers who you generally associate with Pakistan.

Also, your post is going to be a field day for a lot of Afridi lovers because you managed to deflect his lack of performances into a debate about whether other batsmen lack performances as well which was not the entire point of my post.

With Afridi it was almost deliberate. If Tendulkar, Sehwag or any other X and Y and Z cricketer missed a ball and got out it was not because of lack of effort.

Afridi simply played for the gallery and he was least interested in the outcome or situation and along the way won a pantheon of average fans.

He might not have been a pathetic player but he ended up as one with stats against non minnows at above 30 with ball and averaging 23 odd with the bat.

The license he got for 20 years of mediocrity was only accepted in Pakistan, a team who struggled to win games because Afridi could sometimes help them win big against minnows.

I am not at all surprised though you rate him because a lot of Pakistanis do.
 
I think you are confusing a performance after every 25 games to consistently being abysmal in other 24.

But then again, in a team like Pakistan where miraculous happenings are the only way for us to go forward, its not surprising how you rate Afridi.

The other day you did rant about how you have followed my posts and they are useless.

Guess the joke is on you now, rating someone who was more a comedian than a cricketer.

Maybe you should go back to your post and reply to that one .Care to explain why Amla is the most useless cricketer in ODIs ever?

Leave this to the guy who I'm actually responding too.
 
Does Kapil Dev have a higher combination of wickets and runs than Afridi in ODIs?
 
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Does Kapil Dev have a higher combination of wickets and runs than Afridi in ODIs?

This is a straw man argument - going by this logic Afridi is superior ODI AR to both Kapil and Imran.

It's like saying Jimmy Anderson is superior to Wasim Akram because he has more test wickets which is equally as absurd.
 
Kapil, by far the best ODI allrounder for a decade wins this quite comfortably. Can't believe that the comparison has lead to such heated debate. :facepalm:
 
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