Kashmir valley’s wish to unite with Pakistan is the elephant in the room

[Wasim_Waqar]

This thread is aimed at people from Kashmir valley, but others are welcome to discuss.

People in Kashmir valley can’t speak about this openly in their homeland for obvious reasons. It is NEVER discussed much in articles.

Pir Panjal and Chenab valley is even more pro Pakistan than Kashmir valley.

Thoughts? [MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] [MENTION=59262]shaaik[/MENTION]

 

[rhony]

There is no elephant. Some people wish to unite with Pakistan and for some mysterious reason seem to withhold tears due to their inability to do so. All the Kashmiris feeling this way should do a hunger strike outside Pak embassy in India. Once that happens, I'm sure Pakistan will consider letting these people in Pak and make them Pak citizens. That's the only solution I see here.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

There is no elephant. Some people wish to unite with Pakistan and for some mysterious reason seem to withhold tears due to their inability to do so. All the Kashmiris feeling this way should do a hunger strike outside Pak embassy in India. Once that happens, I'm sure Pakistan will consider letting these people in Pak and make them Pak citizens. That's the only solution I see here.

In the media in general, it is not highlighted. People should not have to move homes.

 

[PakLFC]

All three options should be open to them regardless of religious belief. The Kashmiri Pundits must be allowed to return home as well free of fear. Most votes wins the day, simple.

 

[rhony]

In the media in general, it is not highlighted. People should not have to move homes.

I see a bunch of South Indians in Chicago. I'm pretty sure they all want to live in India and be Americans instead of coming all this way. They can't. Instead, they go to american embassy, get a visa and settle down here in US and get a citizenship. It'll probably be easy for you if you apply for student visa in Pakistan...

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I see a bunch of South Indians in Chicago. I'm pretty sure they all want to live in India and be Americans instead of coming all this way. They can't. Instead, they go to american embassy, get a visa and settle down here in US and get a citizenship. It'll probably be easy for you if you apply for student visa in Pakistan...

Kashmir is a disputed territory.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

All three options should be open to them regardless of religious belief. The Kashmiri Pundits must be allowed to return home as well free of fear. Most votes wins the day, simple.

They aren’t going to return. Nor are the thousands of Kashmiris who now live in mainland Pakistan. Nor are the 237,000 Jammu Muslims who were massacred in 1947/8.

Pakistan will beat independence hands down in a 3-option referendum, even in Kashmir valley.

 

[PakLFC]

They aren’t going to return. Nor are the thousands of Kashmiris who now live in mainland Pakistan. Nor are the 237,000 Jammu Muslims who were massacred in 1947/8.

Pakistan will beat independence hands down in a 3-option referendum, even in Kashmir valley.

That is up to them if they choose not to return. There are still millions of Kashmiris living in the valley who want freedom from India no doubt about it. The likes of Yasin Malik want complete independence as do many others as well.

 

[rhony]

They aren’t going to return. Nor are the thousands of Kashmiris who now live in mainland Pakistan. Nor are the 237,000 Jammu Muslims who were massacred in 1947/8.

Pakistan will beat independence hands down in a 3-option referendum, even in Kashmir valley.

Referendum will happen once Pak leaves Kashmir. If that happens, India will just occupy rest of the Kashmir and will say stalemate and rest of the world won't care. So the best strategy is for Kashmiris to beg Pakistan to take them in. I'm sure Pak will consider as they have taken quite a few Afghans in too. That way, everybody will be happy.

 

[rhony]

That is up to them if they choose not to return. There are still millions of Kashmiris living in the valley who want freedom from India no doubt about it. The likes of Yasin Malik want complete independence as do many others as well.

Yasin Malik will die of old age in a few years. Most of the Kashmiris too. Once people are destitute, they will have a choice of Azadi or hunger. Hunger always wins. India has time, Yasin Malik.doesnt.

 

[rhony]

Kashmir is a disputed territory.

Says the UN? They stopped caring a while ago. Don't kid yourself and apply for Pak visa soon. Life is short. Nobody deserves to live under occupation. If the Pak visa is rejected, I'm sure there's some chacha jihadi kashmiri who knows a few routes and tunnels to smuggle you back to Pakistan

 

[PakLFC]

Yasin Malik will die of old age in a few years. Most of the Kashmiris too. Once people are destitute, they will have a choice of Azadi or hunger. Hunger always wins. India has time, Yasin Malik.doesnt.

The next generation will be ready to continue the fight just like the previous ones did. The kids are watching what is going on, they already are throwing stones at your army. If given a choice they would even choose hunger over India.

 

[rhony]

The next generation will be ready to continue the fight just like the previous ones did. The kids are watching what is going on, they already are throwing stones at your army. If given a choice they would even choose hunger over India.

And they will die of hunger then. There are indications that Pak will stop material support soon. Indians will plug the borders eventually and a few key Kashmiris will disappear. Pelting stones will result in blindness as we've seen and the blind typically don't know which direction they are aiming at. Indians will settle a bunch of RSS goons in the area as part of multiple settlements. It's easy to counter dumb folk. It's the smart ones that are difficult to deal with.

 

[rhony]

Just realize one thing. If Modi can do what he did in Gujarat as a CM, he can do much more in Kashmir. They just touched the 370.and 35a. If Modi and BJP win, they will destroy those articles in the next term. Indian press machine speaks the same language as GOI when it matters. Indians can keep the international institutions quiet as we've seen during the recent scuffle. Pak is in survival mode and can't afford to keep providing material support. Imran realized it as he's smart. In 5 years, you will see a much different Kashmir where the Kashmiris will beg not to conduct plebiscite because of the change in demographics. I see relations between India and Pakistan improve at the cost of Kashmiris.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

That is up to them if they choose not to return. There are still millions of Kashmiris living in the valley who want freedom from India no doubt about it. The likes of Yasin Malik want complete independence as do many others as well.

Malik is irrelevant in Kashmir compared to other leaders.

 

[Madplayer]

Malik is irrelevant in Kashmir compared to other leaders.

Yasin Malik has reiterated many times that independence is his personal opinion only and he will go with what the people decide.

 

[Pakistanian]

Yasin Malik has reiterated many times that independence is his personal opinion only and he will go with what the people decide.

who would you say is the most popular leader?

 

[Madplayer]

who would you say is the most popular leader?

Syed Ali shah Geelani. Without a shadow of doubt, he is the most popular leader. Masarat Alam was supposed to be his successor but he was identified as such by Indian agencies and is laguishing in jail ever since under public safety act which is just another draconian law.

However, recently we have seen a trend that militant commanders are becoming quite iconic among the youth after the rise of social media. It started with Burhan Wani and is still continuing.

 

[troodon]

OP's agenda is to unite Kashmir valley with Pakistan.

 

[cric_man]

I think India has inadvertently attracted a lot of International attention to the Kashmir issue due to its hubris. India had very successfully kept any discussion on Kashmir at international forums to minimal if at all.
Have a listen to what Arundhati Roy has to say about the issue.

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[rhony]

I think India has inadvertently attracted a lot of International attention to the Kashmir issue due to its hubris. India had very successfully kept any discussion on Kashmir at international forums to minimal if at all.
Have a listen to what Arundhati Roy has to say about the issue.

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She says a lot of things all the time. UNSC is the only thing that matters and at this point they don't care. Not even China.

 

[rhony]

She has some valid points. There needs to be a space for Kashmiris to give their view point. According to her the voices are muddled because of Indian and Pakistani forces. She's right and wrong. People have a right to have their voice heard but it's the Kashmiris that are muddling their own voices because of lack of unity. Someone in valley wants to join Pak, someone else in Jammu want to be with India and a section who want to be independent. There are separatists, there are stone pelters, there are terrorists, there are people with messages of peace, there are people who use the Indian machinery for their own benefit and there are people who don't care. The voices most heard are from terrorists and stone pelters. That's a small number of people who have owned the narrative and no sane body or government will encourage them. That's where the issue lies.

 

[cric_man]

She has some valid points. There needs to be a space for Kashmiris to give their view point. According to her the voices are muddled because of Indian and Pakistani forces. She's right and wrong. People have a right to have their voice heard but it's the Kashmiris that are muddling their own voices because of lack of unity. Someone in valley wants to join Pak, someone else in Jammu want to be with India and a section who want to be independent. There are separatists, there are stone pelters, there are terrorists, there are people with messages of peace, there are people who use the Indian machinery for their own benefit and there are people who don't care. The voices most heard are from terrorists and stone pelters. That's a small number of people who have owned the narrative and no sane body or government will encourage them. That's where the issue lies.

Has She stated anything factually incorrect?
Who is a terrorist and who is the separatists? Why didn't India engage APHC in any meaningful way?

 

[cric_man]

Quick Primer on the Kashmir conflict.

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[rhony]

Has She stated anything factually incorrect?
Who is a terrorist and who is the separatists? Why didn't India engage APHC in any meaningful way?

What she says is correct to a certain extent. However, the mess is also because of strategic mistakes by Kashmiris. Geelani is a separatist. Burhan Wani was a terrorist. India doesn't engage with separatists. It's simple really. Why would you want to engage with secessionists? No country wants to do that. Instead focus should be on "Choice". Whatever you choose- Independence, Join India or Pak is after the fact and should not be the focus now. I think that's where the Kashmiris lost the plot. Indian grip gets firmer and stronger every year because of the state's ego to crush the people who demand seperation and also no body supports an armed struggle. Instead, everybody would have understood if the struggle was for a "choice" or plebiscite instead of Azadi drumbeat. Kashmiris have been dragged into different directions by so much noise, they are currently leaderless.

 

[cric_man]

What she says is correct to a certain extent. However, the mess is also because of strategic mistakes by Kashmiris. Geelani is a separatist. Burhan Wani was a terrorist. India doesn't engage with separatists. It's simple really. Why would you want to engage with secessionists? No country wants to do that. Instead focus should be on "Choice". Whatever you choose- Independence, Join India or Pak is after the fact and should not be the focus now. I think that's where the Kashmiris lost the plot. Indian grip gets firmer and stronger every year because of the state's ego to crush the people who demand separation and also no body supports an armed struggle. Instead, everybody would have understood if the struggle was for a "choice" or plebiscite instead of Azadi drumbeat. Kashmiris have been dragged into different directions by so much noise, they are currently leaderless.

Pray tell what choice did they have?

 

[rhony]

Pray tell what choice did they have?

Right now, none. However, the demand for a "Choice" or plebiscite will have backers over the long term if there is no secession or seperatism argument. You can always choose what you want during the plebiscite. Instead, the secession argument pre plebiscite would be preceived as betrayal now and will be responded with an iron fist. It's like fighting over a possible result when the exam hasn't been conducted yet. People will just ignore those claims.

 

[Junaid_ahmed]

If Pakistan wants any solution then a decisive war is the only solution of Kashmir issue.

 

[cric_man]

Right now, none. However, the demand for a "Choice" or plebiscite will have backers over the long term if there is no secession or seperatism argument. You can always choose what you want during the plebiscite. Instead, the secession argument pre plebiscite would be preceived as betrayal now and will be responded with an iron fist. It's like fighting over a possible result when the exam hasn't been conducted yet. People will just ignore those claims.

You are turning yourself into a pretzel trying to justify India's brutal occupation.
Plebiscite/Choice anything you say will most definitely result in secession. It was the same 70 years back same now. The only choice will be whether Kashmiris want to cede to Pakistan or stay independent.

In the meanwhile over 70,000 kashmiris have been killed , untold amount have been raped, incarcerated and tortured without any recourse. There are over 700,000 Indian military & Paramilitary forces (greater than Pakistan's standing Army) trying to subdue as you say a few thousand "terrorists".
You can't just say, if you like to be part of Pakistan, just go over to Azad Kashmir. This (Kashmir) is their land. This is where their past generations were born and buried.

 

[rhony]

You are turning yourself into a pretzel trying to justify India's brutal occupation.
Plebiscite/Choice anything you say will most definitely result in secession. It was the same 70 years back same now. The only choice will be whether Kashmiris want to cede to Pakistan or stay independent.

In the meanwhile over 70,000 kashmiris have been killed , untold amount have been raped, incarcerated and tortured without any recourse. There are over 700,000 Indian military & Paramilitary forces (greater than Pakistan's standing Army) trying to subdue as you say a few thousand "terrorists".
You can't just say, if you like to be part of Pakistan, just go over to Azad Kashmir. This (Kashmir) is their land. This is where their past generations were born and buried.

You seem to misunderstand what I'm saying here. Indian occupation (debatable because of accession. Nobody acceded to Pak so Pakistan is actually the occupier in AJK, GB) or brutality or the deaths already happened. Will you keep crying about it or will you think about the future? There is no freakin way India, a democracy, thereby it's people will let somebody secede from India. People should stop dreaming about joining Pakistan or Being independent or joining India for now. First you have to convince the people of India and the world that all you want is a choice of a plebiscite. Once that happens, which by the way happens only when Pak moves it's army and people out if AJK, GB, then you can exercise your choice as you wish and either join Pak or be independent or join India. Because of secession talk, you have antagonized a bunch of blood thirsty Indians. See the flawed logic by Kashmiris here? As I said it's because of flawed politics and lack of leadership.