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Kindly get vaccinated for the flu with the latest vaccines

You must deluded into thinking most look at independent research.

Your right, many haven't and therefore end up with viewpoints such as yours. The question is why haven't you bothered?

Not that I particularly want to diverge onto the topics of government and politics which is probably deserving of it's own thread (of which there has been several), and I'm sure we'll agree in many areas, but is it really a surprise that:

1) Vallance as a former board member of GSK owns shares in the company (which would've been declared when he got his current position).

2) That the government have agreed a deal with the largest UK based pharmaceutical company along with multiple others for a vaccine?
 
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Your right, many haven't and therefore end up with viewpoints such as yours. The question is why haven't you bothered?

Not that I particularly want to diverge onto the topics of government and politics which is probably deserving of it's own thread (of which there has been several), and I'm sure we'll agree in many areas, but is it really a surprise that:

1) Vallance as a former board member of GSK owns shares in the company (which would've been declared when he got his current position).

2) That the government have agreed a deal with the largest UK based pharmaceutical company along with multiple others for a vaccine?

I believe it's vastly overblown, the virus should never hold up the world and send the economy into doom People are suffering with job losses, mental health issues, children losing school time, teenagers scared of their future, the list goes on and on.....

For what? A virus where 98% recover from.

Nice to see people are waking up to this and hopefully will stop their dicatatorship type governments from taking their freedoms.

Vallance did not declare, which is why it made the news. Please use your nod for once.
 
I believe it's vastly overblown, the virus should never hold up the world and send the economy into doom People are suffering with job losses, mental health issues, children losing school time, teenagers scared of their future, the list goes on and on.....

For what? A virus where 98% recover from.

Nice to see people are waking up to this and hopefully will stop their dicatatorship type governments from taking their freedoms.

Vallance did not declare, which is why it made the news. Please use your nod for once.

Independent of whether you think it's overblown or not then, what's your justification behind not wearing a mask in indoor settings around other people? Even if you completely ignore what the government says there is a wide amount of independent scientific research that indicates this reduces transmission and will therefore potentially save lives, so why would you make the conscious decision not to when this isn't a case of putting anything in your body?

All governments advisors have to declare any interests they have when they take the job, there hasn't been any indication that Vallance didn't do this.
 
Independent of whether you think it's overblown or not then, what's your justification behind not wearing a mask in indoor settings around other people? Even if you completely ignore what the government says there is a wide amount of independent scientific research that indicates this reduces transmission and will therefore potentially save lives, so why would you make the conscious decision not to when this isn't a case of putting anything in your body?

All governments advisors have to declare any interests they have when they take the job, there hasn't been any indication that Vallance didn't do this.

Masks restrict breathing but mainly because I dont want to be a slave to these laws for a pandemic which is being vastly over exagurated, also the science is debatable.

All the media i read stated there is no indication Vallance delcared his shares. Goverment may now have said but these are liars and crooks. You want believe the likes of Matt Hancock and still claim to some sort of credibility, it doesnt work like this.

You have not wrote a single sentence to make me think otherwise, so dont want to waste your time any long. Enjoy the vaccine and I do hope you dont have serious side effects which many will have, I assure you.
 
I believe it's vastly overblown, the virus should never hold up the world and send the economy into doom People are suffering with job losses, mental health issues, children losing school time, teenagers scared of their future, the list goes on and on.....

For what? A virus where 98% recover from.

Nice to see people are waking up to this and hopefully will stop their dicatatorship type governments from taking their freedoms.

Vallance did not declare, which is why it made the news. Please use your nod for once.

2% death rate is acceptable?
 
I believe it's vastly overblown, the virus should never hold up the world and send the economy into doom People are suffering with job losses, mental health issues, children losing school time, teenagers scared of their future, the list goes on and on.....

For what? A virus where 98% recover from.

Nice to see people are waking up to this and hopefully will stop their dicatatorship type governments from taking their freedoms.

Vallance did not declare, which is why it made the news. Please use your nod for once.

Without all the measures, half a million Britons would have died.
 
Without all the measures, half a million Britons would have died.

I dont have your crystal ball but I do know its only the vunerable. So the vunverable should be locked down not healthy people who have a life to live.
 
I dont have your crystal ball but I do know its only the vunerable. So the vunverable should be locked down not healthy people who have a life to live.

But how do you do that?

If someone in your household is vulnerable, how can you go to work and risk bringing it home?
 
But how do you do that?

If someone in your household is vulnerable, how can you go to work and risk bringing it home?

Make a seperate room for them or have someone live them who doesnt need to go out to work. If people believe in the vaccine and it's not far away, they can be patient.
 
I agree with KKWC that the pandemic could have been better managed in terms of specific people being locked down. However the 2 percent, seemingly low, death rate is very misleading and deceptive. It does not take into account the number of people who are cured after needing hospital treatment eg Boris would have died without treatment. For instance there are some A&E wards which are full of covid patients. An example is where my brother works, last night there were 60 patients with the virus and only four doctors. Half the emergency department was full due to covid. And this is with lockdown protocols in place. Without lockdowns the number of people who would need hospital treatment would absolutely overwhelm the system and NHS would collapse. I have had the misfortune of having 2 people in extended family and 2 doctors who we knew, die of the virus. One was only 52. Even now we don't know the long term damage the virus causes to the pulmonary system. UK has simply bungled it, especially Boris. Pakistan has managed it well because since the beginning there were consistent policies. In the UK it's been far too late. As an example, uptil a month ago despite policies about screening new arrivals at airports, this was absolutely not being enforced. I know of a few people who came from abroad and were baffled at not being asked to fill any forms. I mean look at masks, this is only being enforced now after tens of thousands of deaths.

Btw KKWC this is not a pop at you at all, but rather at the government who have not had proper policies when they could have. Instead we had Boris openly shaking hands in march and then inevitably getting the virus himself. And barely surviving. I think a lot of this could have been prevented if the government had coherent policies instead of changing their tune every week.
 
Make a seperate room for them or have someone live them who doesnt need to go out to work. If people believe in the vaccine and it's not far away, they can be patient.

Not easy en masse and this thing is airborne. Might be possible in big families with multiple dwellings but for single parents much harder.
 
I agree with KKWC that the pandemic could have been better managed in terms of specific people being locked down. However the 2 percent, seemingly low, death rate is very misleading and deceptive. It does not take into account the number of people who are cured after needing hospital treatment eg Boris would have died without treatment. For instance there are some A&E wards which are full of covid patients. An example is where my brother works, last night there were 60 patients with the virus and only four doctors. Half the emergency department was full due to covid. And this is with lockdown protocols in place. Without lockdowns the number of people who would need hospital treatment would absolutely overwhelm the system and NHS would collapse. I have had the misfortune of having 2 people in extended family and 2 doctors who we knew, die of the virus. One was only 52. Even now we don't know the long term damage the virus causes to the pulmonary system. UK has simply bungled it, especially Boris. Pakistan has managed it well because since the beginning there were consistent policies. In the UK it's been far too late. As an example, uptil a month ago despite policies about screening new arrivals at airports, this was absolutely not being enforced. I know of a few people who came from abroad and were baffled at not being asked to fill any forms. I mean look at masks, this is only being enforced now after tens of thousands of deaths.

Btw KKWC this is not a pop at you at all, but rather at the government who have not had proper policies when they could have. Instead we had Boris openly shaking hands in march and then inevitably getting the virus himself. And barely surviving. I think a lot of this could have been prevented if the government had coherent policies instead of changing their tune every week.

Thanks for the info. The UK government is nothing more than a bunch of muppets with self interests at heart. When you have your cheif medical scientist having millions of pounds worth of shares for GSK, it should send alarm bells. In any court this would be a massive conflict of interest in such circumstances but nobody cares here.

The damage these lockdowns are doing to society is far worse than the deaths. We have had a record number of suicides , you're smart enough to know the other effects.
 
Thanks for the info. The UK government is nothing more than a bunch of muppets with self interests at heart. When you have your cheif medical scientist having millions of pounds worth of shares for GSK, it should send alarm bells. In any court this would be a massive conflict of interest in such circumstances but nobody cares here.

The damage these lockdowns are doing to society is far worse than the deaths. We have had a record number of suicides , you're smart enough to know the other effects.

I agree the government is incompetent and a lot of problems to the healthcare system itself is due to how the government manages it. I'm happy how Pakistan has managed it carefully despite having more population than the UK and despite being a third world nation.
 
The damage these lockdowns are doing to society is far worse than the deaths. We have had a record number of suicides , you're smart enough to know the other effects.

There's no evidence that suicide rates in the UK have increased since the pandemic began, infact on the contrary provisional figures for the 2nd quarter of this year indicate it had the lowest rate on record.
 
Can either of you provide evidence to back up either of your claim. Because I hear his all the time that suicide rates are up. But what little research i have done does not match . I honestly would like to know.
 
There's no evidence that suicide rates in the UK have increased since the pandemic began, infact on the contrary provisional figures for the 2nd quarter of this year indicate it had the lowest rate on record.

Now government apologists will say this cop is lying too.

A Cumbrian police chief has voiced concerns about a rise in the number of suspected suicides reported across Cumbria after lockdown.

So far this year, 45 people in the county have thought to have taken their own life - almost double the number this time last year.

Assistant Chief Constable, Andy Slattery, says the increase in cases is 'concerning' and has met with Cumbria's suicide prevention group to understand why it is happening and what to do next.

https://www.itv.com/news/border/202...ected-suicide-rates-in-cumbria-after-lockdown

Has mental health issues not increased either?
 
Now government apologists will say this cop is lying too.



https://www.itv.com/news/border/202...ected-suicide-rates-in-cumbria-after-lockdown

Has mental health issues not increased either?

How about when discussing suicide rates in the UK we look at stats for the suicide rate in the UK as opposed to unsourced stats for a small region of the UK? Here you are: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...asets/deathscausedbysuicidebyquarterinengland

And to add a tweet from Samaritans repeating what I've just told you: https://mobile.twitter.com/samaritans/status/1277622114246365196

Mental health issues are not something that are easy to put a figure on like suicide rates.
 
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How about when discussing suicide rates in the UK we look at stats for the suicide rate in the UK as opposed to unsourced stats for a small region of the UK? Here you are: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...asets/deathscausedbysuicidebyquarterinengland

And to add a tweet from Samaritans repeating what I've just told you: https://mobile.twitter.com/samaritans/status/1277622114246365196

Mental health issues are not something that are easy to put a figure on like suicide rates.

I dont take the UK government as truthful at all regarding this pandemic for the reasons Ive pointed out.

Lets look around the world.

Coronavirus: Suicide rate rises among schoolchildren and women during pandemic in Japan

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...th-domestic-violence-coronavirus-b910385.html

Nurse suicides rise in Europe amid stress of COVID-19 pandemic

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/03/31/trez-m31.html

U.S. Army Saw Rise in Suicides as Covid-19 Pandemic Locked Down Nation

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-ar...id-19-pandemic-locked-down-nation-11601581910

Suicides rise after virus puts squeeze on India’s middle class

https://www.ft.com/content/abb1e033-28fa-428d-8882-935aad2052df

Please quickly refute each of the above, as I have another 20 links ready for you.
 
Thanks for the info. The UK government is nothing more than a bunch of muppets with self interests at heart. When you have your cheif medical scientist having millions of pounds worth of shares for GSK, it should send alarm bells. In any court this would be a massive conflict of interest in such circumstances but nobody cares here.

The damage these lockdowns are doing to society is far worse than the deaths. We have had a record number of suicides , you're smart enough to know the other effects.

Hmm, you can usually get better from mental illness, but you can’t get better from being killed by COVID. I would have locked us down earlier and harder. Our PM is instinctively liberal (albeit a very right wing one) when we needed him to get authoritarian.

I am scared now. All the hospitals round my way went into Black Alert last winter, before COVID hit, and now we are heading into the second COVID wave.

I think the NHS could get overwhelmed soon. It’s a truly alarming thought.
 
Hmm, you can usually get better from mental illness, but you can’t get better from being killed by COVID. I would have locked us down earlier and harder. Our PM is instinctively liberal (albeit a very right wing one) when we needed him to get authoritarian.

I am scared now. All the hospitals round my way went into Black Alert last winter, before COVID hit, and now we are heading into the second COVID wave.

I think the NHS could get overwhelmed soon. It’s a truly alarming thought.

Well the WHO has backtracked now.

WHO backflips on virus stance by condemning lockdowns

Dr. David Nabarro from the WHO appealed to world leaders yesterday, telling them to stop “using lockdowns as your primary control method” of the coronavirus.

He also claimed that the only thing lockdowns achieved was poverty – with no mention of the potential lives saved.

“Lockdowns just have one consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer,” he said.

https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...s/news-story/f2188f2aebff1b7b291b297731c3da74

When people are stressed due to lockdowns, lonelyness, no job, exams, no future, lack of excercise, their immune system will weaken resulting in more health issues, so hospitals may be overwhelmed but this is due to damaging policies by world governments.

The virus is real but the serioiusness of he pandemic has been vastly overblown. Prob to bring in new order of tracking people and controlling them.
 
Well the WHO has backtracked now.



https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...s/news-story/f2188f2aebff1b7b291b297731c3da74

When people are stressed due to lockdowns, lonelyness, no job, exams, no future, lack of excercise, their immune system will weaken resulting in more health issues, so hospitals may be overwhelmed but this is due to damaging policies by world governments.

The virus is real but the serioiusness of he pandemic has been vastly overblown. Prob to bring in new order of tracking people and controlling them.

Interesting how lockdowns are now experiencing a dramatic disavowal and loss of popularity. They were always a highly damaging short-term measure as opposed to a solution. There is little evidence that they work.

A virus is a virus. It multiplies. And a human being is the perfect live organic host. The only way to control a virus is for a population to build up an immunity to it through antibodies — either naturally, or with a vaccine.

One truly hideous and very sinister consequence of the developed worlds’ response to Covid is the ongoing decimation of the arts industry. Theatre, events, dance, opera, live music, television, film. Soon there will be no arts sector left to critique, satirise and challenge political establishments and prevailing orthodoxies. I am sure this outcome would suit many of those in charge just fine.
 
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Well the WHO has backtracked now.



https://www.news.com.au/world/coron...s/news-story/f2188f2aebff1b7b291b297731c3da74

When people are stressed due to lockdowns, lonelyness, no job, exams, no future, lack of excercise, their immune system will weaken resulting in more health issues, so hospitals may be overwhelmed but this is due to damaging policies by world governments.

The virus is real but the serioiusness of he pandemic has been vastly overblown. Prob to bring in new order of tracking people and controlling them.

Please beware conspiracy thinking. The track and trace app tells far less than your credit cards do every day.

And I repeat that without all these measures we would lose half a million Britons. This thing is three times as infectious as flu and kills 2% of those infected. Look at what is happening n Brazil where the President downplayed the virus, they are dropping like flies.
 
Interesting how lockdowns are now experiencing a dramatic disavowal and loss of popularity. They were always a highly damaging short-term measure as opposed to a solution. There is little evidence that they work.

A virus is a virus. It multiplies. And a human being is the perfect live organic host. The only way to control a virus is for a population to build up an immunity to it through antibodies — either naturally, or with a vaccine.

One truly hideous and very sinister consequence of the developed worlds’ response to Covid is the ongoing decimation of the arts industry. Theatre, events, dance, opera, live music, television, film. Soon there will be no arts sector left to critique, satirise and challenge political establishments and prevailing orthodoxies. I am sure this outcome would suit many of those in charge just fine.

Interesting point - be it the writing of Bob Marley, or Spitting Image, or even that Diversity routine.

Only the printed word will hold up.
 
Should I get a flu jab?

The World Health Organisation and the NHS say getting a flu shot could help health services fight Covid-19 this winter.

Health experts are urging all pregnant women to take up the offer of a free flu vaccine as soon as possible to help protect themselves and their babies. Anyone working in maternity departments is being given the same message.

The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and Royal College of Midwives say the vaccination is even more important this year because of Covid-19. Pregnancy can change the way the body responds to viral infections, and in rare cases, flu can have very serious consequences.

Bbc
 
Please beware conspiracy thinking. The track and trace app tells far less than your credit cards do every day.

And I repeat that without all these measures we would lose half a million Britons. This thing is three times as infectious as flu and kills 2% of those infected. Look at what is happening n Brazil where the President downplayed the virus, they are dropping like flies.

I'm afraid you are peddling conspiracy theories here. Where is your evidence that this virus is 3 times more deadly that the flu?

Even if we grant you the notion the fact you have admitted above that without current measures more could have died. In other words you are giving Boris and Trump a pat on the back.

Not to say anything of WHO, U-turn champions, and incorrect causes of death on certificates.

While you worry about the phoney triple-rate C19 virus, the fact is people who need health care outside of the virus are more vulnerable and dying.
 
Interesting how lockdowns are now experiencing a dramatic disavowal and loss of popularity. They were always a highly damaging short-term measure as opposed to a solution. There is little evidence that they work.

A virus is a virus. It multiplies. And a human being is the perfect live organic host. The only way to control a virus is for a population to build up an immunity to it through antibodies — either naturally, or with a vaccine.

One truly hideous and very sinister consequence of the developed worlds’ response to Covid is the ongoing decimation of the arts industry. Theatre, events, dance, opera, live music, television, film. Soon there will be no arts sector left to critique, satirise and challenge political establishments and prevailing orthodoxies. I am sure this outcome would suit many of those in charge just fine.

Arts will be fine, think of the far worse sectors that have been decimated:

1. Retail (foot-fall)
2. Travel
3. Commercial Rents
 
Interesting how lockdowns are now experiencing a dramatic disavowal and loss of popularity. They were always a highly damaging short-term measure as opposed to a solution. There is little evidence that they work.

A virus is a virus. It multiplies. And a human being is the perfect live organic host. The only way to control a virus is for a population to build up an immunity to it through antibodies — either naturally, or with a vaccine.

One truly hideous and very sinister consequence of the developed worlds’ response to Covid is the ongoing decimation of the arts industry. Theatre, events, dance, opera, live music, television, film. Soon there will be no arts sector left to critique, satirise and challenge political establishments and prevailing orthodoxies. I am sure this outcome would suit many of those in charge just fine.

The world will never be the same again, the days of mass gatherings at entertainment venues, raves, concerts are gone. Even with a vaccine it wont end as a new virus will appear or it will mutate making the vaccine pretty much void. If only we could go back to the 90's, life was exciting.

Please beware conspiracy thinking. The track and trace app tells far less than your credit cards do every day.

And I repeat that without all these measures we would lose half a million Britons. This thing is three times as infectious as flu and kills 2% of those infected. Look at what is happening n Brazil where the President downplayed the virus, they are dropping like flies.

Its not a conspiray Robert, I advise you to research Serco, this company is part of the issue, they have over 500 contracts worldwide and have been involved in security and wars to many other things.

The people who are going to die from this will die, the vaccine isnt guaranteed to do anything. Goverments needed to spend money on medical equipment to give treatment to those who may have it. When we are asking Turkey for equipment it means we have no clue what we are doing.

Please dont trust these MP's who have lied to us many times in the past.

Thankfully, much of the UK is waking up and will confront this lockdown nonsense.
 
The world will never be the same again, the days of mass gatherings at entertainment venues, raves, concerts are gone. Even with a vaccine it wont end as a new virus will appear or it will mutate making the vaccine pretty much void. If only we could go back to the 90's, life was exciting.

Its not a conspiray Robert, I advise you to research Serco, this company is part of the issue, they have over 500 contracts worldwide and have been involved in security and wars to many other things.

The people who are going to die from this will die, the vaccine isnt guaranteed to do anything. Goverments needed to spend money on medical equipment to give treatment to those who may have it. When we are asking Turkey for equipment it means we have no clue what we are doing.

Please dont trust these MP's who have lied to us many times in the past.

Thankfully, much of the UK is waking up and will confront this lockdown nonsense.

We have had just this one viral pandemic since 1919. I see no reason why there will necessarily be another in short order. We will get the vaccine and life will start to normalise again. But I expect that people will have to show vaccination certificates to get into gigs and football matches and so on.

Serco is a facilities management firm. When I worked in FM they were our competitors. They are not involved in wars. They look after the plumbing and electrics on some MoD sites, and run immigrant detention centres. See also Mitie and Interserve and the defunct Carillion.

I don’t trust these Tories an inch but this is more to do with incompetence than malevolence.
 
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We have had just this one viral pandemic since 1919. I see no reason why there will necessarily be another in short order. We will get the vaccine and life will start to normalise again. But I expect that people will have to show vaccination certificates to get into gigs and football matches and so on.

Serco is a facilities management firm. When I worked in FM they were our competitors. They are not involved in wars. They look after the plumbing and electrics on some MoD sites, and run immigrant detention centres. See also Mitie and Interserve and the defunct Carillion.

I don’t trust these Tories an inch but this is more to do with incompetence than malevolence.

We live in a global world now, people travel very fast across continents. As we saw with Covid from China it became a pandemic in Europe within a couple of months. As people farm pigs, Swine flu or a new strain of it can become a global pandemic at any time.

Serco does not have troops or security contractors(militants paid) but a large percentage of their revenue comes from defence contracts. They were involved in the Iraq war providing many services. Serco are leaders in secruity and are being used to help with security over this. As with social media, various apps, mobile phones, see Edward Snowdens revelations, we are for sure being monitored.
 
We live in a global world now, people travel very fast across continents. As we saw with Covid from China it became a pandemic in Europe within a couple of months. As people farm pigs, Swine flu or a new strain of it can become a global pandemic at any time.

Serco does not have troops or security contractors(militants paid) but a large percentage of their revenue comes from defence contracts. They were involved in the Iraq war providing many services. Serco are leaders in secruity and are being used to help with security over this. As with social media, various apps, mobile phones, see Edward Snowdens revelations, we are for sure being monitored.

Well, they might fixing the plumbing and electrics on some MoD bases. Though a look at their portfolio suggests that they are also involved in engineering solutions for the US Navy.
 
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] you may be more right than I thought. I had no idea that this little British FM firm had got so large.

https://wri-irg.org/en/story/2009/war-profiteer-month-serco

On data though I would be more worried by what you tell FB and Insta than Serco track-and-trace.

Its truly shocking but scary because one company has so much information held.

I also heard a while ago Serco are joining with Lockheed and others to control a new defence satelliate .

Guesss the name? Hint Terminator 2

Answer: SKYNET .
 
Its truly shocking but scary because one company has so much information held.

I also heard a while ago Serco are joining with Lockheed and others to control a new defence satelliate .

Guesss the name? Hint Terminator 2

Answer: SKYNET .


SercNet becomes self-aware at 2.14 Eastern Time on 29 August 2027.....
 
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I haven't gotten flu vaccine yet.

I don't think I ever took this vaccine. It is not mandatory here.
 
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COVID-19 Story Tip: Herd Immunity Is a Dangerous Strategy for Fighting COVID-19, Says Johns Hopkins Expert

Herd immunity — when the prevalence of immunity to a virus in a population reaches “herd” levels (enough people are resistant to keep an epidemic from growing) — has been considered by some countries as a strategy to combat the current COVID-19 crisis. However, according to Stuart Ray, M.D., professor of medicine at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, rushing toward herd immunity by ignoring risky behavior in the hope that infected people will survive, become resistant and reduce the susceptible population is an approach that will increase deaths and disability, and should be avoided.

“For a highly infectious virus like SARS-CoV-2 [the virus that causes COVID-19], the minimal level to reach herd immunity — where we’d expect newly infected people to pass the virus to less than one additional person — is thought to be about 60% of the population,” says Ray, noting that estimates of that level vary. “Even if testing positive for antibodies to the virus indicates that immunity gained will be more than temporary, we are probably far from that threshold.”

“In fact, in countries that have avoided lockdowns, masks and physical distancing, we have not seen evidence that any have achieved herd protection on a national scale,” he adds.

Take for example, Sweden, a major country that prominently tried herd immunity earlier this year as a national strategy. As part of the plan, Swedish officials allowed the following to remain operating without restrictions: restaurants, preschools and grade schools, public transportation, public parks, hair salons, yoga studios, gyms, malls, movie theaters and ski slopes. They did limit public gatherings to 50 or fewer people, closed high schools and universities, closed museums, cancelled public sporting events and banned visits to nursing homes. Social distancing, however, was voluntary.

The results of Sweden’s decision to attempt herd immunity were disappointing — and devastating. By the end of May 2020, the nation recorded nearly 41,000 COVID-19 cases resulting in more than 4,500 deaths in a population of 10 million, compared with Scandinavian neighbors Norway and Finland that counted fewer than 600 COVID-19 deaths combined. Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist and architect of the herd immunity plan, admitted at a press conference in early June that “too many people had died too soon” as a consequence.

As for whether herd immunity could work as a strategy for the United States, the answer from Ray is an emphatic “no.” That is unless, he says, much more effective treatments are developed.

“The United States has a large vulnerable population; differing strategies at community, state and national levels for dealing with COVID-19; and a health care system with shortcomings and inequities, so it would be very difficult to reach the necessary level of immunity without an effective vaccine,” he says. “For example, the inconsistency in accessing COVID-19 testing in this country erodes safety and weakens confidence in what the results tell us. If you don’t know who’s infected, you can’t protect vulnerable people or determine who actually has immunity.”

Ray says the bigger question still needing an answer is whether SARS-CoV-2 infection yields long-term immunity.

“For herd immunity to work, prior exposure to SARS-CoV-2 has to prime the immune system to produce a strong response to all future contact with the virus, and in turn, make the person less infectious,” Ray explains. “We don’t know if that happens with this specific coronavirus.”

“It’s a shaky foundation on which to base a disease-fighting strategy that could fail and lead to ‘whack-a-mole’ outbreaks of COVID-19 for a long time,” he warns.

Ray is available to discuss herd immunity with the media.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/new...r-fighting-covid-19-says-johns-hopkins-expert

=================

The Swedish COVID-19 Response Is a Disaster. It Shouldn’t Be a Model for the Rest of the World

The Swedish COVID-19 experiment of not implementing early and strong measures to safeguard the population has been hotly debated around the world, but at this point we can predict it is almost certain to result in a net failure in terms of death and suffering. As of Oct. 13, Sweden’s per capita death rate is 58.4 per 100,000 people, according to Johns Hopkins University data, 12th highest in the world (not including tiny Andorra and San Marino). But perhaps more striking are the findings of a study published Oct. 12 in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which pointed out that, of the countries the researchers investigated, Sweden and the U.S. essentially make up a category of two: they are the only countries with high overall mortality rates that have failed to rapidly reduce those numbers as the pandemic has progressed.

Yet the architects of the Swedish plan are selling it as a success to the rest of the world. And officials in other countries, including at the top level of the U.S. government, are discussing the strategy as one to emulate—despite the reality that doing so will almost certainly increase the rates of death and misery.

Countries that locked down early and/or used extensive test and tracing—including Denmark, Finland, Norway, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam and New Zealand—saved lives and limited damage to their economies. Countries that locked down late, came out of lock down too early, did not effectively test and quarantine, or only used a partial lockdown—including Brazil, Mexico, Netherlands, Peru, Spain, Sweden, the U.S. and the U.K.—have almost uniformly done worse in rates of infection and death.

Despite this, Sweden’s Public Health Agency director Johan Carlson has claimed that “the Swedish situation remains favorable,” and that the country’s response has been “consistent and sustainable.” The data, however, show that the case rate in Sweden, as elsewhere in Europe, is currently increasing.

Average daily cases rose 173% nationwide from Sept. 2-8 to Sept. 30-Oct. 6 and in Stockholm that number increased 405% for the same period. Though some have argued that rising case numbers can be attributed to increased testing, a recent study of Stockholm’s wastewater published Oct. 5 by the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology (KTH) argues otherwise. An increased concentration of the virus in wastewater, the KTH researchers write, shows a rise of the virus in the population of the greater Stockholm area (where a large proportion of the country’s population live) in a way that is entirely independent of testing. Yet even with this rise in cases, the government is easing the few restrictions it had in place.

From early on, the Swedish government seemed to treat it as a foregone conclusion that many people would die. The country’s Prime Minister Stefan Löfven told the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter on April 3, “We will have to count the dead in thousands. It is just as well that we prepare for it.” In July, as the death count reached 5,500, Löfven said that the “strategy is right, I am completely convinced of that.” In September, Dr. Anders Tegnell, the Public Health Agency epidemiologist in charge of the country’s COVID-19 response reiterated the party line that a growing death count did “not mean that the strategy itself has gone wrong.” There has been a lack of written communication between the Prime Minister and the Public Health Authority: when the authors requested all emails and documents between the Prime Minister’s office and the Public Health Authority for the period Jan. 1—Sept. 14, the Prime Minister’s Registrar replied on Sept. 17 that none existed.

Despite the Public Health Agency’s insistence to the contrary, the core of this strategy is widely understood to have been about building natural “herd immunity”—essentially, letting enough members of a population (the herd) get infected, recover, and then develop an immune system response to the virus that it would ultimately stop spreading. Both the agency and Prime Minister Löfven have characterized the approach as “common sense“ trust-based recommendations rather than strict measures, such as lockdowns, which they say are unsustainable over an extended period of time—and that herd immunity was just a desirable side effect. However, internal government communications suggest otherwise.

Emails obtained by one of the authors through Freedom of Information laws (called offentlighetsprincipen, or “Openness Principle,” in Swedish) between national and regional government agencies, including the Swedish Public Health Authority, as well as those obtained by other journalists, suggest that the goal was all along in fact to develop herd immunity. We have also received information through sources who made similar requests or who corresponded directly with government agencies that back up this conclusion. For the sake of transparency, we created a website where we’ve posted some of these documents.

One example showing clearly that government officials had been thinking about herd immunity from early on is a March 15 email sent from a retired doctor to Tegnell, the epidemiologist and architect of the Swedish plan, which he forwarded to his Finnish counterpart, Mika Salminen. In it, the retired doctor recommended allowing healthy people to be infected in controlled settings as a way to fight the epidemic. “One point would be to keep schools open to reach herd immunity faster,” Tegnell noted at the top of the forwarded email.

Salminen responded that the Finnish Health Agency had considered this but decided against it, because “over time, the children are still going to spread the infection to other age groups.” Furthermore, the Finnish model showed that closing schools would reduce “the attack rate of the disease on the elderly” by 10%. Tegnell responded: “10 percent might be worth it?”

The majority of the rest of Sweden’s policymakers seemed to have agreed: the country never closed daycare or schools for children under the age of 16, and school attendance is mandatory under Swedish law, with no option for distance learning or home schooling, even for family members in high risk groups. Policymakers essentially decided to use children and schools as participants in an experiment to see if herd immunity to a deadly disease could be reached. Multiple outbreaks at schools occurred in both the spring and autumn.

At this point, whether herd immunity was the “goal” or a “byproduct” of the Swedish plan is semantics, because it simply hasn’t worked. In April, the Public Health Agency predicted that 40% of the Stockholm population would have the disease and acquire protective antibodies by May. According to the agency’s own antibody studies published Sept. 3 for samples collected up until late June, the actual figure for random testing of antibodies is only 11.4% for Stockholm, 6.3% for Gothenburg and 7.1% across Sweden. As of mid-August, herd immunity was still “nowhere in sight,” according to a Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine study. That shouldn’t have been a surprise. After all, herd immunity to an infectious disease has never been achieved without a vaccine.

Löfven, his government, and the Public Health Agency all say that the high COVID-19 death rate in Sweden can be attributed to the fact that a large portion of these deaths occurred in nursing homes, due to shortcomings in elderly care.

However, the high infection rate across the country was the underlying factor that led to a high number of those becoming infected in care homes. Many sick elderly were not seen by a doctor because the country’s hospitals were implementing a triage system that, according to a study published July 1 in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases, appeared to have factored in age and predicted prognosis. “This likely reduced [intensive care unit] load at the cost of more high-risk patients”—like elderly people with confirmed infection—dying outside the ICU.” Only 13% of the elderly residents who died with COVID-19 during the spring received hospital care, according to preliminary statistics from the National Board of Health and Welfare released Aug.

In one case which seems representative of how seniors were treated, patient Reza Sedghi was not seen by a doctor the day he died from COVID-19 at a care home in Stockholm. A nurse told Sedghi’s daughter Lili Perspolisi that her father was given a shot of morphine before he passed away, that no oxygen was administered and staff did not call an ambulance. “No one was there and he died alone,” Perspolisi says.

In order to be admitted for hospital care, patients needed to have breathing problems and even then, many were reportedly denied care. Regional healthcare managers in each of Sweden’s 21 regions, who are responsible for care at hospitals as well as implementing Public Health Agency guidelines, have claimed that no patients were denied care during the pandemic. But internal local government documents from April from some of Sweden’s regions—including those covering the biggest cities of Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö—also show directives for how some patients including those receiving home care, those living at nursing homes and assisted living facilities, and those with special needs could not receive oxygen or hospitalization in some situations. Dagens Nyheter published an investigation on Oct. 13 showing that patients in Stockholm were denied care as a result of these guidelines. Further, a September investigation by Sveriges Radio, Sweden’s national public broadcaster, found that more than 100 people reported to the Swedish Health and Care Inspectorate that their relatives with COVID-19 either did not receive oxygen or nutrient drops or that they were not allowed to come to hospital.

These issues do not only affect the elderly or those who had COVID-19. The National Board of Health and Welfare’s guidelines for intensive care in extraordinary circumstances throughout Sweden state that priority should be given to patients based on biological, not chronological, age. Sörmlands Media, in an investigation published May 13, cited a number of sources saying that, in many parts of the country, the health care system was already operating in a way such that people were being denied the type of inpatient care they would have received in normal times. Regional health agencies were using a Clinical Frailty Scale, an assessment tool designed to predict the need for care in a nursing home or hospital, and the life expectancy of older people by estimating their fragility, to determine whether someone should receive hospital care and was applied to decisions regarding all sorts of treatment, not only for COVID-19. These guidelines led to many people with health care needs unrelated to COVID-19 not getting the care they need, with some even dying as a result—collateral damage of Sweden’s COVID-19 strategy.

Dr. Michael Broomé, the chief physician at Stockholm’s Karolinska Hospital’s Intensive Care Unit, says his department’s patient load tripled during the spring. His staff, he says, “have often felt powerless and inadequate. We have lost several young, previously healthy, patients with particularly serious disease courses. We have also repeatedly been forced to say no to patients we would normally have accepted due to a lack of experienced staff, suitable facilities and equipment.”

In June, Dagens Nyheter reported a story of one case showing how disastrous such a scenario can be. Yanina Lucero had been ill for several weeks in March with severe breathing problems, fever and diarrhea, yet COVID-19 tests were not available at the time except for those returning from high risk areas who displayed symptoms, those admitted to the hospital, and those working in health care. Yanina was only 39 years old and had no underlying illnesses. Her husband Cristian brought her to an unnamed hospital in Stockholm, but were told it was full and sent home, where Lucero’s health deteriorated. After several days when she could barely walk, an ambulance arrived and Lucero was taken to Huddinge hospital, where she was sedated and put on a ventilator. She died on April 15 without receiving a COVID-19 test in hospital.

Sweden did try some things to protect citizens from the pandemic. On March 12 the government restricted public gatherings to 500 people and the next day the Public Health Agency issued a press release telling people with possible COVID-19 symptoms to stay home. On March 17, the Public Health Agency asked employers in the Stockholm area to let employees work from home if they could. The government further limited public gatherings to 50 people on March 29. Yet there were no recommendations on private events and the 50-person limit doesn’t apply to schools, libraries, corporate events, swimming pools, shopping malls or many other situations. Starting April 1, the government restricted visits to retirement homes (which reopened to visitors on Oct. 1 without masks recommended for visitors or staff). But all these recommendations came later than in the other Nordic countries. In the interim, institutions were forced to make their own decisions; some high schools and universities changed to on-line teaching and restaurants and bars went to table seating with distance, and some companies instituted rules about wearing masks on site and encouraging employees to work from home.

Meanwhile Sweden built neither the testing nor the contact-tracing capacity that other wealthy European countries did. Until the end of May (and again in August), Sweden tested 20% the number of people per capita compared with Denmark, and less than both Norway and Finland; Sweden has often had among the lowest test rates in Europe. Even with increased testing in the fall, Sweden still only tests only about one-fourth that of Denmark.

Sweden never quarantined those arriving from high-risk areas abroad nor did it close most businesses, including restaurants and bars. Family members of those who test positive for COVID-19 must attend school in person, unlike in many other countries where if one person in a household tests positive the entire family quarantines, usually for 14 days. Employees must also report to work as usual unless they also have symptoms of COVID-19, an agreement with their employer for a leave of absence or a doctor recommends that they isolate at home.

On Oct. 1, the Public Health Authority issued non-binding “rules of conduct” that open the possibility for doctors to be able to recommend that certain individuals stay home for seven days if a household member tests positive for COVID-19. But there are major holes in these rules: they do not apply to children (of all ages, from birth to age 16, the year one starts high school), people in the household who previously have a positive PCR or antibody test or, people with socially important professions, such as health care staff (under certain circumstances).

There is also no date for when the rule would go into effect. “It may not happen right away, Stockholm will start quickly but some regions may need more time to get it all in place,” Tegnell said at a Oct. 1 press conference. Meanwhile, according to current Public Health Agency guidelines issued May 15 and still in place, those who test positive for COVID-19 are expected to attend work and school with mild symptoms so long as they are seven days post-onset of symptoms and fever free for 48 hours.

Sweden actually recommends against masks everywhere except in places where health care workers are treating COVID-19 patients (some regions expand that to health care workers treating suspected patients as well). Autumn corona outbreaks in Dalarna, Jönköping, Luleå, Malmö, Stockholm and Uppsala hospitals are affecting both hospital staff and patients. In an email on April 5, Tegnell wrote to Mike Catchpole, the chief scientist at the European Center for Disease Control and Prevention (ECDC): “We are quite worried about the statement ECDC has been preparing about masks.” Tegnell attached a document in which he expresses concern that ECDC recommending facemasks would “imply that the spread is airborne which would seriously harm further communication and trust among the population and health care workers” and concludes “we would like to warn against the publication of this advice.” Despite this, on April 8 ECDC recommended masks and on June 8 the World Health Organization updated its stance to recommend masks.

Sweden’s government officials stuck to their party line. Karin Tegmark Wisell of the Public Health Agency said at a press conference on July 14 that “we see around the world that masks are used in a way so that you rather increase the spread of infection.” Two weeks later, Lena Hallengren, the Minister of Health and Social Affairs, spoke about masks at a press conference on July 29 and said, “We don’t have that tradition or culture” and that the government “would not review the Public Health Agency’s decision not to recommend masks.”

All of this creates a situation which leaves teachers, bus drivers, medical workers and care home staff more exposed, without face masks at a time when the rest of the world is clearly endorsing widespread mask wearing.

On Aug. 13, Tegnell said that to recommend masks to the public “quite a lot of resources are required. There is quite a lot of money that would be spent if you are going to have masks.” Indeed, emails between Tegnell and colleagues at the Public Health Agency and Andreas Johansson of the Ministry of Health and Social Affairs show that the policy concerns of the health authority were influenced by financial interests, including the commercial concerns of Sweden’s airports.

Swedavia, the owner of the country’s largest airport, Stockholm Arlanda, told employees during the spring and early summer they could not wear masks or gloves to work. One employee told Upsala Nya Tidning newspaper on Aug. 24 “Many of us were sick during the beginning of the pandemic and two colleagues have died due to the virus. I would estimate that 60%-80% of the staff at the security checks have had the infection.”

“Our union representatives fought for us to have masks at work,” the employee said, “but the airport’s response was that we were an authority that would not spread fear, but we would show that the virus was not so dangerous.” Swedavia’s reply was that they had introduced the infection control measures recommended by the authorities. On July 1, the company changed its policy, recommending masks for everyone who comes to Arlanda—that, according to a Swedavia spokesperson, was not as a result of “an infection control measure advocated by Swedish authorities,” but rather, due to a joint European Union Aviation Safety Agency and ECDC recommendation for all of Europe.

As early as January, the Public Health Agency was warning the government about costs. In a Jan. 31 communique, Public Health Agency Director Johan Carlsson (appointed by Löfven) and General Counsel Bitte Bråstad wrote to the Ministry of Health and Social Affairs, cautioning the government about costs associated with classifying COVID-19 as a socially dangerous disease: “After a decision on quarantine, costs for it [include] compensation which according to the Act, must be paid to those who, due to the quarantine decision, must refrain from gainful employment. The uncertainty factors are many even when calculating these costs. Society can also suffer a loss of production due to being quarantined [and] prevented from performing gainful employment which they would otherwise have performed.” Sweden never implemented quarantine in society, not even for those returning from travel abroad or family members of those who test positive for COVID-19.

Not only did these lack of measures likely result in more infections and deaths, but it didn’t even help the economy: Sweden has fared worse economically than other Nordic countries throughout the pandemic.

The Swedish way has yielded little but death and misery. And, this situation has not been honestly portrayed to the Swedish people or to the rest of the world.

A Public Health Agency report published July 7 included data for teachers in primary schools working on-site as well as for secondary school teachers who switched to distance instruction online. In the report, they combined the two data sources and compared the result to the general population, stating that teachers were not at greater risk and implying that schools were safe. But in fact, the infection rate of those teaching in classrooms was 60% higher than those teaching online—completely undermining the conclusion of the report.

The report also compares Sweden to Finland for March through the end of May and wrongly concludes that the ”closing of schools had no measurable effect on the number of cases of COVID-19 among children.” As testing among children in Sweden was almost non-existent at that time compared to Finland, these data were misrepresented; a better way to look at it would be to consider the fact that Sweden had seven times as many children per capita treated in the ICU during that time period.

When pressed about discrepancies in the report, Public Health Agency epidemiologist Jerker Jonsson replied on Aug. 21 via email: “The title is a bit misleading. It is not a direct comparison of the situation in Finland to the situation in Sweden. This is just a report and not a peer-reviewed scientific study. This was just a quick situation report and nothing more.” However the Public Health Agency and Minister of Education continue to reference this report as justification to keep schools open, and other countries cite it as an example.

This is not the only case where Swedish officials have misrepresented data in an effort to make the situation seem more under control than it really is. In April, a group of 22 scientists and physicians criticized Sweden’s government for the 105 deaths per day the country was seeing at the time, and Tegnell and the Public Health Agency responded by saying the true number was just 60 deaths per day. Revised government figures now show Tegnell was incorrect and the critics were right. The Public Health Agency says the discrepancy was due to a backlog in accounting for deaths, but they have backlogged deaths throughout the pandemic, making it difficult to track and gauge the actual death toll in real time.

Sweden never went into an official lockdown but an estimated 1.5 million have self-isolated, largely the elderly and those in risk groups. This was probably the largest factor in slowing the spread of the virus in the country in the summer. However, recent data suggest that cases are yet again spiking in the country, and there’s no indication that government policies will adapt.

Health care workers, scientists and private citizens have all voiced concerns about the Swedish approach. But Sweden is a small country, proud of its humanitarian image—so much so that we cannot seem to understand when we have violated it. There is simply no way to justify the magnitude of lost lives, poorer health and putting risk groups into long-term isolation, especially not in an effort to reach an unachievable herd immunity. Countries need to take care before adopting the “Swedish way.” It could have tragic consequences for this pandemic or the next.

https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/
 
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Doctors in South Korea call for flu vaccinations to be paused after 25 deaths

South Korean officials refused on Thursday to suspend a seasonal influenza inoculation effort, despite growing calls for a halt, including an appeal from a key group of doctors, after the deaths of at least 25 of those vaccinated. Health authorities said they found no direct links between the deaths and the vaccines.

At least 22 of the dead, including a 17-year-old boy, were part of a campaign to inoculate 19 million teenagers and senior citizens for free, the Korea Disease Control and Prevention Agency (KDCA) said.

“The number of deaths has increased, but our team sees low possibility that the deaths resulted from the shots,” the agency’s director, Jeong Eun-kyeong, told parliament.

South Korea ordered a fifth more flu vaccines this year to ward off what it calls a “twindemic”, or the prospect that people with flu develop coronavirus complications and overburden hospitals in winter.

“I understand and regret that people are concerned about the vaccine,” said health minister Park Neung-hoo, who confirmed the free programme would carry on.

“We’re looking into the causes but will again thoroughly examine the entire process in which various government agencies are involved, from production to distribution.”

Vaccine providers include domestic firms such as GC Pharma, SK Bioscience, Korea Vaccine and Boryung Biopharma Co Ltd, a unit of Boryung Pharm Co Ltd, along with France’s Sanofi.

They supply both the free programme and paid services that together aim to vaccinate about 30 million people of a population of 52 million.

Of the 25 dead, 10 received products from SK Bioscience, five each from Boryung and GC Pharma, one from Korea Vaccine and four from Sanofi.

All four domestic firms declined to comment, while Sanofi did not immediately reply to requests for comment.

It was not immediately clear if any of the vaccines made in South Korea were exported, or if those supplied by Sanofi were also being used elsewhere.

The Korean Medical Association, an influential grouping of doctors, urged the government to temporarily halt all inoculation programmes to allay public concerns and ensure the vaccines were safe.

Kim Chong-in, leader of the main opposition People Power party, wanted the programme halted until the causes of the deaths were verified.

But health authorities have said a preliminary investigation into six deaths found no direct link to the vaccines, with no toxic substances uncovered.

KDCA data on Thursday showed at least seven of the nine people it investigated had underlying conditions.

The free programme has proved controversial since it began last month. The launch was suspended for three weeks after the discovery that about 5m doses were kept at room temperature rather than being refrigerated, as required.

Officials said 8.3 million people had been inoculated since the programme resumed on 13 Octobter, with about 350 cases of adverse reactions reported.

A separate paid programme allows buyers to pick from a larger pool of firms that make free vaccines and others.

The most deaths in South Korea linked to previous seasonal flu vaccinations was six in 2005, the Yonhap news agency said. Officials have said comparisons to previous years are difficult, since more people are taking the vaccine this year.

Kim Myung-suk, 65, is among a growing number of South Koreans who decided to pay for a vaccine of their choice, despite being eligible for a free dose.

“Though just a few people died so far, the number is growing and that makes me uneasy,” she told Reuters in the capital, Seoul. “So I’m getting a shot somewhere else and will pay for it.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...flu-vaccinations-to-be-paused-after-25-deaths
 
South Korean authorities stick to flu vaccine plan after deaths rise to 48

SEOUL (Reuters) - The number of South Koreans who have died after getting flu shots has risen to 48, the Korea Disease Control and Prevention Agency (KDCA) said on Saturday, adding that the vaccines would continue to reduce the chance of having simultaneous epidemics.

The health authorities said they found no direct link between the deaths and the shots. They plan to carry on with the state-run vaccination programme to try to avoid having to fight both the flu and the coronavirus over the coming winter.

“After reviewing death cases so far, it is not the time to suspend a flu vaccination programme since vaccination is very crucial this year, considering ... the COVID-19 outbreaks,” KDCA Director Jeong Eun-kyung told a briefing.

Jeong said the review had shown no direct link between the flu shots and the 26 deaths that have been investigated.

Some 20 initial autopsy results from the police and the National Forensic Service showed that 13 people died of cardiovascular, cerebrovascular and other disorders not caused by the vaccination.

The death toll among those who have been vaccinated rose by 12 cases from a day earlier to 48 on Saturday.

The rising deaths have caused some doctors and politicians to call for a halt to the government campaign to vaccinate about 30 million of the country’s 54 million people.

While encouraging people to get flu vaccines, Jeong issued precautions to take before getting the shot, such as drinking enough water and telling healthcare workers about any underlying medical conditions. She also advised people to wait 15-30 minutes before leaving the clinic where they receive their vaccine.

“If possible, try to get the flu shot when it’s warm, since there are concerns that low temperatures could affect cardiovascular disease or cerebrovascular disease,” she said.

The KDCA said 9.4 million people had been inoculated as of Friday in the programme that began in September, with 1,154 cases of adverse reactions.

South Korea reported 77 new coronavirus cases as of Friday midnight, bringing total infections to 25,775, with 457 deaths.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ne-plan-after-deaths-rise-to-48-idUSKBN2790G8
 
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