"Kumble and my wicket count would be something else if we got pitches like these" : Harbhajan Singh

[Bilal7]

Jadeja has the better average and economy rate in the 14 tests that him and Ashwin have played together. Think about this for a second.

Bhajji is totally right. Good to see an Indian calling a spade a spade instead of crying and whining in the face of the truth that their test pitches are Heaven for spinners.

 

[Bilal7]

Well that's easy, our spinners are useless but still came out looking like roses.
People want to took about Bangalore as if it was a completed Test match.
In Mohali India were 60/1 at one stage going nicely. Nothing to me suggests wickets wouldn't have fallen in a heap, anything to the contrary would be baseless speculation.
Only one pitch was decent at that, it was Delhi. But by then SA were so mentally handicapped they were playing demons and not the pitch. And who's to blame for that? The players?
Even then they fought magnificently well in the second innings, lasted over 140 overs. Not many teams do that in the 4th innings in India.
To even try and put a spin for those disgraceful pitches would be deplorable.
The bigger picture is the series averages for both teams, not a test and half.

Excellent post. Quite sad when all people can bring out in defense is an incomplete test and a dead rubber, when all the South Africans were mentally shot as Faf du Plessis himself admitted sometime later.

Why is it so hard to accept that your pitches are terrible and have aided Ashwin immensely? I have no problems criticizing the pitches in the UAE for being way too dead over the last two years or so.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Well that's easy, our spinners are useless but still came out looking like roses.
People want to took about Bangalore as if it was a completed Test match.
In Mohali India were 60/1 at one stage going nicely. Nothing to me suggests wickets wouldn't have fallen in a heap, anything to the contrary would be baseless speculation.
Only one pitch was decent at that, it was Delhi. But by then SA were so mentally handicapped they were playing demons and not the pitch. And who's to blame for that? The players?
Even then they fought magnificently well in the second innings, lasted over 140 overs. Not many teams do that in the 4th innings in India.
To even try and put a spin for those disgraceful pitches would be deplorable.
The bigger picture is the series averages for both teams, not a test and half.

Hehe...

Remember cricinfo articles criticizing the MOhali and Nagpur pitch?

This is what they had to say about Bangalore pitch.

Virat Kohli's India showed they were not one-trick ponies, choosing to field on what turned out to be a proper Test-match first-day pitch and bowling out South Africa for 214 in a little over two sessions. The show of intent was clear: on a pitch that looked damp they went in with just the five batsmen, brought in an extra seamer and when they found no help for the quicks, the spinners ran through the hapless visitors. India were on in the field too: every ball was chased down with intent, and there were at least three excellent catches taken.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-south-africa-2015-16/content/story/940551.html

Getting bowled out for 214 on day 1 on a normal track? I am quoting a reputable source that had unfavourable views about Mohali and Nagpur.

What does that say about Saffer batsmen?

To even try and put a spin for those disgraceful pitches would be deplorable.

You don't worry about that brother.

Just answer my questions. When the series was going on, after the Bangalore collapse, I didn't see you on PP. Remember, we were in the middle of a discussion. Let's finish that now. Been following Indian test cricket for 4 years and I would say I have a decent amount of knowledge about our tracks, stats and all that without even looking at cricinfo.

The bigger picture is the series averages for both teams, not a test and half.

So let's talk about the REAL bigger picture as you say.

Ashwin averaged 11 when Saffer bowlers (Harmer, Piedt and Tahir) averaged 20.

Now Ashwin averaged 17 when NZ bowlers (Santner, Jeetan, Ish, Craig) averaged 50+. Santner has an outside Asia average of 29.

1. So if the pitches are the same, then Tahir, Piedt and Harmer are 10X better than Santner (who averages 29 outside Asia) due to their great performance in India?

2. And if its not true......how come Indian spinner's averages aren't getting affected that much while the opponent spinners' jumps 3X in normal tracks.

You said SA was a freak situation but I have shown proof that Bangalore was a proper track and Delhi you may have been mentally shot...but the EXACT SAME THING happened for NZ. Averages shot up in normal tracks. Our batsmen averaged 50-100.

So either Saffer batsmen are beyond rubbish or there is more to this story.

Once you answer this, we can discuss about Indian pitches of the last 4 years....along with breakdown of which ones were rank turners...which ones weren't...everything else

 

[Slog]

Ashwin and Kohli will be cursing Bhajji though

First it was just non Indians who were coming out with this allegation and Kohli and Indians could just brush them away calling it sour grapes or whatever

But now an Indian legend has the same opinion and to make matters worse it is one of the greatest spinners of the past couple of decades.

Now when they try to brush it by alleging sour grapes people will come up with the Bhajji quote

 

[soso_killer]

Excellent post. Quite sad when all people can bring out in defense is an incomplete test and a dead rubber, when all the South Africans were mentally shot as Faf du Plessis himself admitted sometime later.

Why is it so hard to accept that your pitches are terrible and have aided Ashwin immensely? I have no problems criticizing the pitches in the UAE for being way too dead over the last two years or so.

Yet Shah has managed to take a heap of wickets in such conditions. Even in England he played a crucial role. Which is why I rate him than statistical anomalies. He's far the best bowler in the world over the last 12 moths or so alongside Starc.

 

[soso_killer]

Hehe...

Remember cricinfo articles criticizing the MOhali and Nagpur pitch?

This is what they had to say about Bangalore pitch.



http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-south-africa-2015-16/content/story/940551.html

Getting bowled out for 214 on day 1 on a normal track? I am quoting a reputable source that had unfavourable views about Mohali and Nagpur.

What does that say about Saffer batsmen?



You don't worry about that brother.

Just answer my questions. When the series was going on, after the Bangalore collapse, I didn't see you on PP. Remember, we were in the middle of a discussion. Let's finish that now. Been following Indian test cricket for 4 years and I would say I have a decent amount of knowledge about our tracks, stats and all that without even looking at cricinfo.



So let's talk about the REAL bigger picture as you say.

Ashwin averaged 11 when Saffer bowlers (Harmer, Piedt and Tahir) averaged 20.

Now Ashwin averaged 17 when NZ bowlers (Santner, Jeetan, Ish, Craig) averaged 50+. Santner has an outside Asia average of 29.

1. So if the pitches are the same, then Tahir, Piedt and Harmer are 10X better than Santner (who averages 29 outside Asia) due to their great performance in India?

2. And if its not true......how come Indian spinner's averages aren't getting affected that much while the opponent spinners' jumps 3X in normal tracks.

You said SA was a freak situation but I have shown proof that Bangalore was a proper track and Delhi you may have been mentally shot...but the EXACT SAME THING happened for NZ. Averages shot up in normal tracks. Our batsmen averaged 50-100.

So either Saffer batsmen are beyond rubbish or there is more to this story.

Once you answer this, we can discuss about Indian pitches of the last 4 years....along with breakdown of which ones were rank turners...which ones weren't...everything else

The Bangalore Test was incomplete, its useless to make a reference about it. We don't know what would have happened. India were 60/1 in Mohali. It's premature to put a label on any pitch until both 1st innings are complete. Even journalist know better. I'm not exactly sure why you would quote me an article on cricinfo.
At Durban SA had NZ 16/2, even the so called "reputable" journalist were not sure which team was on top. Some believed SA were on top, while others believed NZ would cut the deficit.
We didn't know what the par score was on that surface, and I dare say nobody knew what a par score was in Bangalore. India were gonna bat last as well.


Here is the bigger picture: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/india...ng/most_runs_career.html?id=10317;type=series

Only one centurion, just one across 4 Tests. Even if we were to extrapolate as you have. Only two batsmen having batted twice averaged at least 40 in Delhi. See what i did there? Data can be manipulated to represent whatever we want to fit the narrative.

 

[Macho Man]

Don't think so, even if Kumble and Harbhajan bowl on the current pitches of India, Ashwin will still outperform them, he is that smart. But if Ashwin had played in the previous era of decent to good players of spin, he wouldn't be averaging under 25 for sure.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

The Bangalore Test was incomplete, its useless to make a reference about it. We don't know what would have happened. India were 60/1 in Mohali. It's premature to put a label on any pitch until both 1st innings are complete. Even journalist know better. I'm not exactly sure why you would quote me an article on cricinfo.
At Durban SA had NZ 16/2, even the so called "reputable" journalist were not sure which team was on top. Some believed SA were on top, while others believed NZ would cut the deficit.
We didn't know what the par score was on that surface, and I dare say nobody knew what a par score was in Bangalore. India were gonna bat last as well.


Here is the bigger picture: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/india...ng/most_runs_career.html?id=10317;type=series

Only one centurion, just one across 4 Tests. Even if we were to extrapolate as you have. Only two batsmen having batted twice averaged at least 40 in Delhi. See what i did there? Data can be manipulated to represent whatever we want to fit the narrative.

What about all the other questions I asked?

Anyways....

Here is the bigger picture: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/india-...17;type=series

Only one centurion, just one across 4 Tests. Even if we were to extrapolate as you have. Only two batsmen having batted twice averaged at least 40 in Delhi. See what i did there? Data can be manipulated to represent whatever we want to fit the narrative.

No one ever said batting in that series was easy. 2 tough pitches had reduced the batting averages.

In the other easy pitches Indians batted very well.

So that stat is meaningless cos no one claimed it was an easy series to bat as a whole.

The topic was ONLY revolving the easier pitches.

Moving on to the next point......

India were 60/1 in Mohali but people started talking about the pitch even before we collapsed that cos it looked bad. Bangalore pitch was damp and we dropped one of our spinners for a pacer and our pacers didn't get wickets and SA still got out to spinners. People were talking about how it was a decent pitch before SA collapsed.

Sure, you can say its POSSIBLE that it could have turned big...but it did NOT turn big on day 1 and still SA got out to 214. Now you could say it could have turned big LATER ON during India innings but if you remember, Ashwin reduced SA to 15-2 at the start itself. First day..first inning...then SA were 88-4 and then 110-5....then 214 all out.

Then India 80-0.

Your argument is based upon what could have happened later on...but the data is all there in front of you.

Still....you can claim things may have changed later on and I get your point (though its really stretching it in my opinion).

Since the data is a bit inconclusive (its not but let's assume it is), let's look at OTHER data.

NZ series in 2016....NZ got destroyed in normal tracks. Ashwin averages 17. Jaddu averages 24. NZ spinners averaged 50+. Santner objectively is a better bowler compared to SA spinners.

NZ series in 2012....NZ got destroyed (batting once & fielding once). In Bangalore track (where it swung a bit that time), NZ batted first and still lost. Ashwin averaged 12 in that series.

Remember Herath winning against SA in a Durban test?

Well India toured SL last year and our spinners did much better. Herath averaged 31 in that series while Ashwin averaged 18 and looked a far better bowler on show that series. India won the series.

So where did the curators go now? How come Indian spinners are maintaining their average outside home (but in spin friendly conditions)?

Now we can say maybe Herath declined (let's be thorough)....maybe he did but then he averaged 12 against Aus in SL. Bhajji who has declined averages 45+ in the last few years in similar spin tracks. As you can see, its hard to perform when you are done with the game. So how much did Herath really decline?

See if you dig in and analyze data properly, you will see lots of instances when things weren't so much in favour for Indian spinners and they still did well.

The truth is no one says Indian spinners are as good as their stats suggest but the opposite end of the spectrum is not true too.

You talk about Dale Steyn's SR all the time. Go and check Ashwin's SR in NON rank turner spin tracks and compare it with rest of current spinners (Asian & non Asian). Its mindboggling really and he has won India series against Aus, NZ, WI, SA and SL.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Another crucial point:

Even if we assume SA were mentally shot in the Delhi test (which I believe is true).....that is for batsmen. The SA bowlers (spinners) were having a gala time averaging low in that low scoring series.

Why did they average upwards of 50 in that test?

They averaged 20 for 3 tests and then jump to 50+ and couldn't even take 20 wickets...India had to declare in that game.

What problems did they have?

Match this with all the data I provided above and the picture becomes clear.

When India gives rank turners, the gap between spinners reduces. But when the pitch goes normal, the gap increases. Its observable in every series.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Sour grapes from Bhajji because he merely stated a fact?

The only fact here is that bhajji has not gotten over the fact that Ash has usurped his position as no.1 spinner in the country.

 

[anuk]

Harbhajan should be thanking his lucky stars that the peak of his career is not in this era as he would have been called for a suspected action soon enough and be banned for the chucking he so blatantly took part in

there was never any chance of that ever happening

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

http://www.wisdenindia.com/cricket-blog/the-bowling-bradman-that-ashwin-is-fast-becoming/225355

) ) )

Yet another thread bites the dust.

Bhajji honestly can't catch a break these days.

 

[Statsman]

View attachment 70122

http://www.wisdenindia.com/cricket-blog/the-bowling-bradman-that-ashwin-is-fast-becoming/225355

) ) )

Yet another thread bites the dust.

Bhajji honestly can't catch a break these days.

Check how many overs spinners are bowling as compared to quicks. That might give another perspective.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Check how many overs spinners are bowling as compared to quicks. That might give another perspective.

Hard to check that. Someone can do it and post the numbers.

But if its super rank turners, the match shouldn't even last this long.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

SRT wanted to play in SA.

SA series was shortened not due to SRT but cos BCCI started throwing a hissy fit reg Haroon Lorgat.

But the 2 test series against WI could have been arranged for him.

I am not so sure if Logart factor was good enough a reason for BCCI to act the way they did, yes they were miffed with SA because of him but arranging a hastily 2 match series for SRT to retire at Mumbai in his 200th test, just too convenient.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I am not so sure if Logart factor was good enough a reason for BCCI to act the way they did, yes they were miffed with SA because of him but arranging a hastily 2 match series for SRT to retire at Mumbai in his 200th test, just too convenient.

Lorgat was a huge issue. Google it up.

BCCI wanted to shorten SA tour anyways and then used the SRT retirement as an excuse.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Can see some people getting hurt real bad after Ashwin's magnificent performance.

They were probably happy that England destroyed him in 2012 and didn't see him making a come back and in this fashion at that.

I only have one thing to say to you trolls and Bhajji pa, you have to endure more such days because Ashwin is a thinker, he will keep getting better and with Kumble as coach, I can't imagine anything stopping him from getting better overseas as well.

So keep hurting.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Lorgat was a huge issue. Google it up.

BCCI wanted to shorten SA tour anyways and then used the SRT retirement as an excuse.

I do remember it, I'm just suggesting that it could have been blown out of proportion to accommodate Sachin's farewell.

Anyway in the end it was a farce one way or another.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Their overall stats in India

Name	Inn	Wickets	Avg	S/R	5w	10w
Ashwin	43	153	20.37	43.9	16	5
Harbhajan	103	265	28.76	64.1	18	4

Harbhajan's argument that on these pitches he would done as well , so lets see how other Indian spinners who featured in the 22 matches Ashwin played, combined figures

Others	Inn	Wickets	Avg	S/R	5w	10w
(Harbhajan, Ojha, Jadeja, Mishra, Chawla)	61	153	26.69	61.8	11	1

They combined have same tally of wickets at a higher average and slower rate than Ashwin. Lets see what is Harbhajan's contribution in the above.

Name	Inn	Wickets	Avg	S/R	5w	10w
Harbhajan	6	7	41.14	91.7	0	0

And just in case anyone was wondering if Harbhajan got picked only when pitches where flat, these are the stats of Ashwin in those 3 tests Harbhajan played.

Name	Inn	Wickets	Avg	S/R	5w	10w
Ashwin	6	20	23.45	48.9	3	1

 

[Bilal7]

Jadeja averages better and has a more miserly economy rate than Ashwin in the 14 games that both spinners have played together. This is a much fairer comparison than pitting an over the hill Bhajji against an Ashwin who is at his peak.

That said, Bhajjan wasn't a great spinner or anything either, however the nature of these wickets is such that even mediocre spinners, like the aforementioned Jadeja, are looking fabulous.

 

[Mamoon]

Difficult pill for Dartbhajan to swallow, but Ashwin is miles better.

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

Jadeja averages better and has a more miserly economy rate than Ashwin in the 14 games that both spinners have played together. This is a much fairer comparison than pitting an over the hill Bhajji against an Ashwin who is at his peak.

That said, Bhajjan wasn't a great spinner or anything either, however the nature of these wickets is such that even mediocre spinners, like the aforementioned Jadeja, are looking fabulous.

Haha so lets have the stats

In 14 tests together, their records read
Ashwin - 93 wickets@18.08 , 11 5-ers, 4 10-ers, SR 43
Jadeja - 68 wickets@17.93, 4 5-ers, no 10-ers, SR 52

Ashwin is better than Jadeja and both are better than Yasir as the ICC rankings show

 

[Bilal7]

Haha so lets have the stats

In 14 tests together, their records read
Ashwin - 93 wickets@18.08 , 11 5-ers, 4 10-ers, SR 43
Jadeja - 68 wickets@17.93, 4 5-ers, no 10-ers, SR 52

Ashwin is better than Jadeja and both are better than Yasir as the ICC rankings show

When a spinner like Jadeja has those numbers, Ashwin's stats are proven to be even more bogus.

 

[Napa]

Why do all these former spinners end up so bitter and insecure? Bedi, Ajmal and now Bhajji.

Because... being a spinner is probably the most un-glamorous cricketing job, or at least it has been for the vast majority of spinners barring Warne, Murali, Benaud, Qadir, Kumble and now Ashwin.

In terms of glamour, batsmen like Tendulkar, ABD, Sanga etc. rule the roost, followed by fast bowlers like Imran, Lillie, Holding, Akram, Kapil, Steyn, etc.

 

[Bilal7]

Because... being a spinner is probably the most un-glamorous cricketing job, or at least it has been for the vast majority of spinners barring Warne, Murali, Benaud, Qadir, Kumble and now Ashwin.

In terms of glamour, batsmen like Tendulkar, ABD, Sanga etc. rule the roost, followed by fast bowlers like Imran, Lillie, Holding, Akram, Kapil, Steyn, etc.

Ajmal, Afridi, Saqlain and Yasir have all been top-tier stars.

There have been just as many bitter batsmen and pacer as there have been spinners.

 

[OS_89]

When India gives rank turners, the gap between spinners reduces. But when the pitch goes normal, the gap increases. Its observable in every series.

100% accurate.

Opposite thing when India plays overseas on greentops. There, gap between other seamers and Indian seamers is negligible because of conditions. But on normal pitches, gap becomes massive as Indian fast bowlers need lots of assistance from the pitch to do well.

 

[Slog]

Comes across as a very bitter person, him and Sehwag

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Comes across as a very bitter person, him and Sehwag

That is true for most of the indian and pakistani ex players when they express their feeling in media. When in reality they do not think before speaking. Guys like Misbah, Dravid, Sachin, Inzi are exceptions though.

 

[Stallion__]

He was right about Kumble. Kumble wouldn't have let them cross 200 in either innings in Pune. And he most certainly wouldn't have let Starc score that many runs.