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Leaked documents show plan to wage financial war on Qatar and steal World Cup

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https://theintercept.com/2017/11/09/uae-qatar-oitaba-rowland-banque-havilland-world-cup/

A PLAN FOR the United Arab Emirates to wage financial war against its Gulf rival Qatar was found in the task folder of an email account belonging to UAE Ambassador to the United States Yousef al-Otaiba and subsequently obtained by The Intercept.

The economic warfare involved an attack on Qatar’s currency using bond and derivatives manipulation. The plan, laid out in a slide deck provided to The Intercept through the group Global Leaks, was aimed at tanking Qatar’s economy, according to documents drawn up by a bank outlining the strategy.

The outline, prepared by Banque Havilland, a private Luxembourg-based bank owned by the family of controversial British financier David Rowland, laid out a scheme to drive down the value of Qatar’s bonds and increase the cost of insuring them, with the ultimate goal of creating a currency crisis that would drain the country’s cash reserves.


Screen-Shot-2017-10-19-at-10.50.08-AM-copy-1508424743 A screenshot of Ambassador Yousef al-Otaiba’s Outlook Tasks. Photo: Global Leaks
Rowland has long had close relationships with UAE leadership, particularly with Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed, known as MBZ. The bank is currently in the process of creating a new financial institution in cooperation with the UAE’s sovereign wealth fund, Mubadala, according to contracts and correspondence obtained by The Intercept outlining the terms of the deal. That project is separate from the Qatar operation, but it reflects the close relationship between the bank and the UAE.

The Qatar debt project would be grandiose in its ambitions. “Control the yield curve, decide the future,” reads the planning document, referring to a standard financial-industry graph showing a country’s borrowing costs for debt that is due at different dates. The height and shape of the yield curve is thought to be a reflection of how healthy an economy is and influences what financing options are available to a country.

Targeting a nation’s economy using financial manipulation would be a dramatic break from traditional norms of diplomacy and even warfare.

The plan the document presents is far-fetched and appeared to have been put together by someone with little or no experience trading in credit and currency markets, two industry veterans who reviewed the plan for The Intercept said. Both were granted anonymity because speaking to the press could jeopardize their employment. “I can’t believe they put this on paper,” one of the credit veterans added. “They are talking about colluding to manipulate markets.”

There is no conclusive evidence the plan has been initiated, nor that it will ever be launched — and the current pressure Qatar’s currency is under as a result of an ongoing blockade imposed by the UAE means those direct, overt steps may be more effective economic sabotage than anything the slides outline. Additionally, the publication of this story means the secrecy the plan says it requires no longer exists.

The Intercept reached Edmund Rowland, David’s son and CEO of the U.K. branch of Banque Havilland, at a mobile phone number listed in internal company documents obtained by The Intercept and asked about the status of the plan to short Qatar on behalf of the UAE, referencing the document. “We’ve never done anything,” Rowland said. Asked for more details, Rowland responded, “I can’t make any comment,” and hung up.

After the call with Rowland, Herbert Kozlov, a lawyer with the firm Reed Smith, reached out to The Intercept and said on behalf of the bank that it had not traded in Qatari bonds or credit default swaps, the financial products the plan proposed to use. “Banque Havilland does not trade in bonds, securities, CDS, or any other instruments of Qatar and it has no plans to do so,” Kozlov said, reading a statement. As for the plan to take down Qatar, he said, “The bank is a prestigious private banking group and will not be drawn into or make comments on what are political storylines.”

The metadata of the slide deck obtained by The Intercept indicates Vladimir Bolelyy, an analyst with Banque Havilland, as the creator. A call by The Intercept to Bolelyy’s receptionist was rebuffed. “He’s been told by Herb Kozlov not to contact this company,” said the receptionist, referring to The Intercept. The Intercept had not previously told Kozlov that Bolelyy was listed as the author of the document.


The mission statement of the plan for a UAE economic war on Qatar. Photo: Global Leaks
THE NEW PROJECT comes amid — and, if implemented, would escalate — a regional crisis that reached new heights in June, when the UAE and Saudi Arabia led a bloc of Gulf nations in blockading and cutting off diplomatic relations with Qatar. U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson recently faulted the blockading countries for intransigence, but President Donald Trump has largely taken the opposite approach, emboldening Saudi Arabia and the Emirates at the expense of Qatar, which is home to one of the largest overseas U.S. military bases in the world. Tillerson traveled to the region on October 20 in the latest effort to defuse the crisis.

According to a report in the American Conservative, Tillerson previously told people close to him that he believed Trump had undermined him at the behest of Otaiba, the UAE ambassador, working through Trump’s son-in-law and White House adviser Jared Kushner, to whom Otaiba is close.

Both Kushner and Trump have reason to take sides with Otaiba in the dispute. The president has a Trump-branded golf course in Dubai and bragged at a press conference before his inauguration about a deal he was offered by a billionaire Emirati real estate developer.

The president’s attempts to get his hands on Qatari money have been less successful. In 2010, Trump traveled to Qatar with his daughter Ivanka Trump in an attempt to secure two different sources of investment funding. He was unceremoniously rebuffed by both.

More recently, Kushner sought a $500 million bailout from a Qatari royal as part of a plan to redevelop his badly underwater flagship investment in a New York office tower. The money for such bailouts often comes from the Gulf. As The Intercept first reported, the Qatari royal agreed to help bail out the Kushners, contingent on their ability to raise the rest of the funding they needed from other sources. The remainder of the funding, however, fell through, and the Qatari royal pulled out of the deal.

After the deal fell apart, Kushner helped orchestrate an unyielding response to the Saudi- and UAE-led economic blockade of Qatar, which Trump took credit for sparking with a hardline approach at a summit in Riyadh. Former top White House adviser Steve Bannon also credited Trump with stoking the blockade at a recent event in Washington. “I don’t think it’s just by happenstance that two weeks after that summit, that you saw the blockade by the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Egypt, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia on Qatar,” Bannon said at a think tank. “And I’ve said from day one, even with the situation in the Pacific, with northwest Korea, I think the single most important situation in the world, that’s happening right now, is the situation in Qatar.”

In late June, Trump waded further into the conflict with remarks aimed at Qatar during a private fundraiser, according to audio obtained by The Intercept. “We’re having a dispute with Qatar — we’re supposed to say Qatar,” Trump said, mocking the pronunciation of the country’s name by varying the syllabic emphasis. “It’s Qatar, they prefer. I prefer that they don’t fund terrorism.”

Regional tensions ratcheted up another few notches over the weekend, as Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, a close ally of both Otaiba and MBZ, arrested dozens of princes and other top officials in a swift consolidation of power and followed it up with a threat to wage war against Iran.


Screen-Shot-2017-11-03-at-2.15.05-PM-1509732936-1510160773 U.S. dollars to Qatari riyals currency chart. Photo:XE.com

THE ECONOMIC BLOCKADE has already directly impacted Qatar’s economy, decimating trade, travel, and finance flows in and out of the country. Qatar’s sovereign wealth fund recently brought $20 billion back to the country to prop up the country’s banking system, and the country’s currency is already showing signs of financial stress.
The cost of insuring Qatari debt has risen some 70 percent since May, the stock market is down 24 percent this year, and yields are rising ahead of a bond offering to be made by the end of the year. Ahead of that debt sale, the country abruptly changed how it calculates how much foreign currency reserves it has, a key metric investors use to assess how risky it is to buy a country’s debt. The move doubled Qatar’s foreign currency reserves and came as a complete surprise to international officials, who normally discuss and review foreign reserve accounting before they are publicly announced. Instead, in this case, Qatar simply released a six-word statement changing its accounting. Despite the unexpected move, the Wall Street Journal noted that “Qatari bond yields are still relatively low for an emerging-market country, reflecting the country’s vast oil reserves and attendant wealth.”

Banque Havilland is best known for its role in a previous incarnation in the bankruptcy of Iceland, from which it sprung as a new bank out of the Luxembourg branch of the Icelandic bank Kaupthing, and for a willingness to work with controversial clients, such as Nigerian tycoon Kola Aluko.

David Rowland launched Banque Havilland with the help of his friend Prince Andrew. Rowland has been an active ally of the conservative British Tory Party and is said to be close to David Cameron, the former British prime minister. Rowland was said to have paid £20,000 — about $23,000 — for a portrait of Cameron at a Conservative Party fundraiser and was briefly named treasurer of the Tories in 2010, before withdrawing amid controversy.

The bank is named after the Rowland’s family home on the tax-haven island of Guernsey, Havilland Hall. Though Edmund Rowland runs the bank, internal documents show his father David remains involved. Documents marked “secret and confidential” outlining the plan for the financial attack against Qatar were being circulated between Banque Havilland and the Emirati embassy in Washington as recently as late September.


Phase1-1508427487 A screenshot from phase one of the plan. Photo:Global Leaks

A PRIVATE FINANCIAL institution like Banque Havilland would be very familiar with the first step of the plan as laid out in the outline: creating a new offshore investment fund constructed to obscure its links to the UAE. The fund would hold Qatari bonds already owned by the UAE, as well as additional debt the fund could buy. The fund would also buy credit default swaps, which would rise in value as Qatari debt sank.
The plan then calls for precipitating a run on the debt through a series of sham transactions to drive down the price of Qatar’s bonds – a manipulation technique known as “painting the tape,” where players swap instruments back and forth to create the false appearance of a high volume of trades. The hope is to get other traders who aren’t in on the plan to see the high volume on the “tape” — the market ticker — and think that, since volume is high in a period of political turmoil, something important must be happening, prompting them to sell. The sales, if the technique goes to plan, would drive the price of the bonds down, creating more panic and more selling. According to the plan, the UAE, having bought credit default swaps against the debt, would see the value of that insurance rise as Qatari debt tanked.

The document outlining the scheme puts the bond trading proposal in print: “Establish a crossing transaction arrangement whereby another affiliated party sells the same bond holdings back to the original seller and thereby creates additional downward pressure.”


A screenshot from phase two of the plan. Photo: Global Leaks

The hope is to spark a run by bond investors who think everybody else is selling, so they better get out quickly.
Falling debt prices and rising costs of the default swaps would signal a fresh crisis to the markets, putting pressure on Qatar’s currency. The Qatari riyal is pegged to the U.S. dollar, so as its offshore value falls, the country would be forced to spend billions of dollars from its reserves to push it up.

In other words, the UAE plans to short Qatar, then drive it into the ground by manipulating international financial markets, all while gaining diplomatic leverage against its rival.

Speculating about a country’s currency and economic future is far from unprecedented in the high-flying world of finance, but the difference in this case is that the plan is not designed for a vulture fund bent on a profit, but a sovereign state looking to undermine a neighboring nation.

The plan is not an obvious winner from a profit perspective, which further suggests its goals to be political rather than financial. As the document notes, at the end of the operation — if it’s successful — it will be difficult for the UAE to unload its Qatari bonds because the attack would have largely weakened Qatar financially.

And that’s if the plan even works. “It is very difficult to manipulate a sovereign [country’s] yield curve,” Frank Partnoy, a finance and law professor at the University of San Diego who formerly structured derivatives at Morgan Stanley, told The Intercept. “This belongs in a James Bond movie but probably wouldn’t work very well in practice.”


A screenshot of the plan dealing with the purchase of credit default swaps on Qatari debt. The CDS instruments rise in value as the bonds fall, allowing the UAE to profit from the collapse of Qatar’s currency. Photo:Global Leaks
RATHER THAN OUTLINE specifics, the document speaks in a vague, somewhat harebrained tone: It doesn’t contain any analysis of Qatari bond, derivative, or currency markets or an estimate of the total economic firepower the UAE can put behind the plan, nor does it address how much of Qatar’s $68 billion in outstanding debt the UAE and it allies already own; how to respond when, as is likely to happen relatively quickly in these lightly traded markets, the Qataris see strange trades and apply pressure to markets in the opposite direction by buying their bonds, stabilizing their currency, and selling credit default swaps; or whether a successful attack on a pegged currency in the region will whip back and lead to pressure on the UAE dirham, the Saudi riyal, and the pegged currencies of their allies.

The plan, instead, lays out a conceptual scheme in several phases, the first of which takes a close look at Qatari currency and credit markets to figure out “available liquidity, supply, and pricing.”

If all goes according to plan, the next move would be to force Qatar to blow through its cash to prop up its currency. “Maintaining the peg requires extensive use of central bank foreign exchange reserves,” reads the outline’s mission statement. The idea would be that as the Qatari bond market tanks, so will the country’s currency. And as holders of Qatar’s currency sell it off and exchange it for dollars, the country’s dollar reserves plummet.

The basic premise of the plan — that Qatar is spending billions of dollars to offset the pain inflicted by the blockade and that the country’s currency is vulnerable — is largely correct. Just before the blockade against Qatar was enacted, the sheikdom held at least $35 billion in currency reserves. After the embargo, Qatar’s reserves plummeted as it spent to prop up its currency and keep its economy afloat. The country now holds just under $24 billion in reserves, though a recent accounting maneuver roughly doubled that number.

Because the country is incredibly rich, Qatar’s official reserves understate how much money it has to defend its currency. The government can call on the vast liquid wealth of Qatar-based corporations, its $335 billion sovereign wealth fund, and its citizens to stabilize the currency or support the economy. For instance, the recent repatriation of $20 billion of the sovereign wealth fund’s cash from international accounts back to onshore banks effectively bailed out Qatar’s financial system, and some government funds are already selling assets.

Qatar may be spending tens of billions of dollars to fight the economic effects of the blockade, but it has hundreds of billions of dollars more. And, on the record, Qatar insists that it has sufficient reserves to keep its currency pegged to the dollar.

As a result, the plan would be anything but a sure bet, financially speaking.

Keeping the outline light on details makes sense, said Partnoy, the University of San Diego professor, in the context of the way banks generally operate. “Bankers are always trying to sell complicated products that will make them fee income,” he said. “This is an effort to try to sell something that might be a terrible idea.”


The public relations machine ramps up in phase three of the plan. Photo: Global Leaks

THE THIRD STAGE of the plan would be to ramp up the “PR machine” in order to slam Qatar internationally, pointing to its weakening financial situation. “Focus on the prospect of restricted access to US Dollar and now-doubtful stability of the country,” the plan reads. “And … continue to increase positions.” In other words, keep the market cornered and feed fears about falling prices with manufactured bad news.
The public relations effort also calls on other countries for help — presumably UAE allies, like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, which have in recent months teamed up with the Emirates to blockade Qatar. “Some bold statements from neighbouring countries may prove useful,” the plan says.

Jacob Frenkel, a former Securities and Exchange Commission enforcement lawyer and federal criminal prosecutor who has served as an expert witness in market manipulation cases, said the proposal raises serious red flags. Because the plan would likely involve trades in U.S. markets and would use U.S. servers and dollars, American regulators and prosecutors would have jurisdiction over it.

Frenkel, now a partner at the law firm Dickinson Wright, said that agreements about timing and pricing of trades are common in manipulation schemes. “The use of entities created for the purpose of engaging in transactions to create the perception of an independent market interest is a characteristic found in market manipulative activities,” he said. That alone is a “red flag that would be of interest to a regulator. And anybody in law enforcement would acknowledge what I’m saying.”

THE DOCUMENTS WERE provided to The Intercept by an opaque group that calls itself Global Leaks. Over the summer, Global Leaks began distributing emails from Otaiba’s inbox to media outlets, including The Intercept. Little is known about the organization, but the Global Leaks operatives use a .ru email account, which suggests they are either Russian or attempting to give that impression. Global Leaks claims it is not connected to the Russian government or any other government.

Global Leaks said it received the documents from sources connected to Banque Havilland, a claim The Intercept investigated and found had merit, though other possibilities — such as a hacking operation — can’t definitively be ruled out.

After obtaining the documents, Global Leaks operatives said they asked a source who maintains access to Otaiba’s inbox to search for documents related to Rowland or Banque Havilland. That source found the slide deck outlining the scheme in Otaiba’s Outlook tasks — a folder designed to serve as a “to-do” list — and provided it to Global Leaks.

Otaiba’s use of a Hotmail account for sensitive diplomatic business was itself questionable when it was reported compromised earlier this year — that he continues to do so months later is even more puzzling. Otaiba has not responded to emails from The Intercept, including one requesting comment for this article, but a Washington, D.C. journalist who corresponds with him recently shared an email sent by Otaiba from the same compromised account. Emails to Otaiba’s Hotmail account were not responded to but did not bounce back.


A screenshot from the public relations stage of the plan. Photo: Global Leaks
WHILE THE SCHEME itself would be an ambitious undertaking, the goal is ultimately petty: It’s about soccer.

One of the plan’s stated aims is forcing Qatar to share soccer’s 2022 World Cup, according to the outline. The strategy laid out in the document calls for using a public relations campaign to point the international soccer body FIFA to Qatar’s dwindling cash reserves, making a case that the small Persian Gulf monarchy can’t afford to build the necessary infrastructure.

The blockade is already raising prices for infrastructure supplies and recruiting top officials to work in Qatar has been difficult, the slides point out. The outline concludes with the hope that the economic war will make it harder for Qatar to continue building stadiums and other assets needed to host the games: “If Qatar now spends its reserves on protecting the currency and domestic credit markets, there is less dry powder to fund the infrastructure spending.”

The UAE, according to the document, hopes to make a push for the Gulf Cooperation Council — a group of Arab monarchies that includes Qatar — to host the premiere global sports event across the member nations, rather than in Qatar alone.

On October 20, several weeks after The Intercept first obtained the document outlining the plan, a well-funded Twitter campaign launched with the goal of taking the World Cup from Qatar, complete with a slickly produced video.


“An appeal to FIFA will be to display football as a tool to stabilise the region,” the document reads. “The GCC can petition FIFA to grant the tournament to the region as a whole.” If Qatar rejects the idea, the plan contends, “they will be seen unwilling to work with their GCC partners” — one of which would have just launched a surreptitious financial attack against the country.
 
Despicable people
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Too far fetched and The Intercept is a highly unreliable source.
 
So one bunch of criminal amoral idiots at war with another bunch of the same. A plague on both their houses.
 
Qatar aren't Wahabis what sort of ignorant person would make such patently false statement ?!

Women in Qatar are allowed to drive without men.
They built Al-Jazeera news network which has been a driver for open transparent journalism in the area.

Saudi by contrast is a closed society led by intolerant backward hypocritical Royal Family who go abroad to pursue their vile immoral vices.
 
Great news. A country which is abusing its Asian workers deserves nothing less. By the time its 2022 4000 migrant workers would have died.
 
Lol. Why're people here coming to defense of UAE and this ambassador? Most are probably second-class residents in that eye-sore of country.
 
Lol. Why're people here coming to defense of UAE and this ambassador? Most are probably second-class residents in that eye-sore of country.

They're all the same, all of them abuse their migrant populations.
 
They're all the same, all of them abuse their migrant populations.

Every country does to some extent.

This has nothing to do with the World Cup, Qatar has enough money to make sure this goes ahead.

Qatar supports Hamas and to some extent Hezbollah who have ended the western backed terrorists in Syria and Iraq and have also given Israel a bloody nose. This is the real issue.
 
Every country does to some extent.

This has nothing to do with the World Cup, Qatar has enough money to make sure this goes ahead.

Qatar supports Hamas and to some extent Hezbollah who have ended the western backed terrorists in Syria and Iraq and have also given Israel a bloody nose. This is the real issue.

I am not disputing your second paragraph, as its very true. Other Arab states can't stomach anyone backing Hezbollah.

However abusing, physically and mentally, the way these Gulf states abuse their migrants ( most of whom are from Pakistan and BD, two fellow Muslim states) happens nowhere else. Even this WC will result in direct deaths of 4000 migrants workers. There was a documentary on TV a while back with numerous Pakistanis stuck there, their passports taken away and forced to work on a pittance. A lot of whom kept on dying due to brutal conditions. With the added torture of not seeing their families for years.

Happens in Dubai, happens in KSA. So ''everywhere'' is misleading.
 
I am not disputing your second paragraph, as its very true. Other Arab states can't stomach anyone backing Hezbollah.

However abusing, physically and mentally, the way these Gulf states abuse their migrants ( most of whom are from Pakistan and BD, two fellow Muslim states) happens nowhere else. Even this WC will result in direct deaths of 4000 migrants workers. There was a documentary on TV a while back with numerous Pakistanis stuck there, their passports taken away and forced to work on a pittance. A lot of whom kept on dying due to brutal conditions. With the added torture of not seeing their families for years.

Happens in Dubai, happens in KSA. So ''everywhere'' is misleading.

Sure they should be given better working conditions but let's be honest, all these immigrant workers know what they are getting into. Sadly if their families are poor, they feel they have little choice.

But this isn't the topic of the thread and Qatar cannot be removed from hosting the world cup for this reason.
 
Sure they should be given better working conditions but let's be honest, all these immigrant workers know what they are getting into. Sadly if their families are poor, they feel they have little choice.

But this isn't the topic of the thread and Qatar cannot be removed from hosting the world cup for this reason.

A lot of those workers don't know actually. An example, one was offered 1000 and a single bed and a yearly visit to his family, 2 days a week off. What he got was 200, 6 days a week 14 hour shifts, a shack with 8 people a room, no running water and 200 people sharing two toilets in a run down shanty town full of workers way outside the city, his passport taken away and hasn't seen his family for 2 years. And in Qatar 4000 of said workers will die. It is very much the topic as this country does not deserve the WC. However they will still get it as every other nation including European ones bribed and schemed their way through as well. Russia has as well so, like you say, this ganging up on Qatar is for political reasons.
 
A lot of those workers don't know actually. An example, one was offered 1000 and a single bed and a yearly visit to his family, 2 days a week off. What he got was 200, 6 days a week 14 hour shifts, a shack with 8 people a room, no running water and 200 people sharing two toilets in a run down shanty town full of workers way outside the city, his passport taken away and hasn't seen his family for 2 years. And in Qatar 4000 of said workers will die. It is very much the topic as this country does not deserve the WC. However they will still get it as every other nation including European ones bribed and schemed their way through as well. Russia has as well so, like you say, this ganging up on Qatar is for political reasons.

They have already got it, it was given to them a few years ago now. I was referring to those who come from abroad, nobody is stupid enough to think it will be hunky dory when the go to Arab nations for unskilled work. AFAIK the World Cup host nation isn't decided based on how a nations workforce is given certain rights.
 
They have already got it, it was given to them a few years ago now. I was referring to those who come from abroad, nobody is stupid enough to think it will be hunky dory when the go to Arab nations for unskilled work. AFAIK the World Cup host nation isn't decided based on how a nations workforce is given certain rights.

Some poor villager from Pakistan who has never been outside his mohalla isn't going to know he's going to be defrauded and pretty much be a slave.

Obviously the WC isn't decided on how a nations workforce is given rights, otherwise the number of fatalities directly related to this WC would mean Qatar is stripped from the WC but it won't happen as I said, the OP's source on that looks dodgy. It'd be great if it did happen but it won't. The WC is given on who gives how many bribes, the Russians, Qataris, even the Germans everyone is at it.
 
Some poor villager from Pakistan who has never been outside his mohalla isn't going to know he's going to be defrauded and pretty much be a slave.

Obviously the WC isn't decided on how a nations workforce is given rights, otherwise the number of fatalities directly related to this WC would mean Qatar is stripped from the WC but it won't happen as I said, the OP's source on that looks dodgy. It'd be great if it did happen but it won't. The WC is given on who gives how many bribes, the Russians, Qataris, even the Germans everyone is at it.

They should try and do some research, millions have been over to Arab nations and esp if they taking out a loan to pay an agent.

Corruption is involved but you cant simply hand over cash to be given host status. Qatar's bid was actually very good. For the first time in history new stadiums built for the World Cup will be transported to Africans nations as part of development.
 
They should try and do some research, millions have been over to Arab nations and esp if they taking out a loan to pay an agent.

Corruption is involved but you cant simply hand over cash to be given host status. Qatar's bid was actually very good. For the first time in history new stadiums built for the World Cup will be transported to Africans nations as part of development.

A villager desperate enough can't do research or search through articles or documentaries like me and you can. Your point be valid if they weren't being defrauded and killed. Most workers wanted to come back but couldn't because they were forcefully kept. I don't even know why I am arguing this point, numerous sources of online literature, all easily googleable, will say the same thing. I would rather have my government stopping Pakistanis going there but we know that will not happen with snakes like PMLN in-charge. They care for nothing other than $$.

As for the WC Qatar's bid was garbage, hence why it was changed to the winter WC. Those stadiums being transferred are useless. Many new stadiums are rusting and lying in waste in South Africa and Brazil, states where football is religion, never mind how they'll be refurbished in poverty stricken corrupt African states. England should have had a go, a nation with first class stadia, a superb transport system and a great appetite for the game.
 
A villager desperate enough can't do research or search through articles or documentaries like me and you can. Your point be valid if they weren't being defrauded and killed. Most workers wanted to come back but couldn't because they were forcefully kept. I don't even know why I am arguing this point, numerous sources of online literature, all easily googleable, will say the same thing. I would rather have my government stopping Pakistanis going there but we know that will not happen with snakes like PMLN in-charge. They care for nothing other than $$.

As for the WC Qatar's bid was garbage, hence why it was changed to the winter WC. Those stadiums being transferred are useless. Many new stadiums are rusting and lying in waste in South Africa and Brazil, states where football is religion, never mind how they'll be refurbished in poverty stricken corrupt African states. England should have had a go, a nation with first class stadia, a superb transport system and a great appetite for the game.

My point is people have to take some responsibility for their own decisions.

Which new stadiums are lying wasted in Africa? These will be state of the art, nothing the continent has ever seen before. I too would have liked it in England but Qatar did something no other bidder could do.
 
Its for the best, Qatar has the blood of thousands of migrant workers on her hands and the numbers are rising each passing year
 
My point is people have to take some responsibility for their own decisions.

Which new stadiums are lying wasted in Africa? These will be state of the art, nothing the continent has ever seen before. I too would have liked it in England but Qatar did something no other bidder could do.

You did not get my point, its all good saying ''state of the art'' stadiums but without proper care or without properly being used ie regularly they are useless. Most of Brazil's new stadiums now stand empty collecting dust. The same will happen in Africa. And its all hogwash, transporting stadiums. Just like the modern ''air conditioned'' stadiums turned out to be nonsense as well.

There is no way a country like Qatar, with not even a proper team (infact even now their team is full of fast-tracked African nationals) should have been allowed a WC. And its pretty obvious how they got their bid. Having a winter WC will absolutely ruin the football calender of every major league., the number of fans will outnumber the country's actual population itself. And lasty as I said a country who's stadiums being built will result in FOUR thousand deaths does not deserve any sort of tournament. The fact you're defending this, while sitting in a place like England where the FA would have been neck deep in criminal negligent cases, is simply mind-numbing.
 
Its for the best, Qatar has the blood of thousands of migrant workers on her hands and the numbers are rising each passing year

Absolutely correct. By 2022 4000 abused and exploited workers would have died as a result of constructing stadiums.
 
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] yeah I'd loved to see England get a chance. Shame they won't anytime soon.
 
You did not get my point, its all good saying ''state of the art'' stadiums but without proper care or without properly being used ie regularly they are useless. Most of Brazil's new stadiums now stand empty collecting dust. The same will happen in Africa. And its all hogwash, transporting stadiums. Just like the modern ''air conditioned'' stadiums turned out to be nonsense as well.

There is no way a country like Qatar, with not even a proper team (infact even now their team is full of fast-tracked African nationals) should have been allowed a WC. And its pretty obvious how they got their bid. Having a winter WC will absolutely ruin the football calender of every major league., the number of fans will outnumber the country's actual population itself. And lasty as I said a country who's stadiums being built will result in FOUR thousand deaths does not deserve any sort of tournament. The fact you're defending this, while sitting in a place like England where the FA would have been neck deep in criminal negligent cases, is simply mind-numbing.

Again, can you name which stadiums in Africa are lying wasted as you claimed? Only the upper tier of the stadiums will be transported as this amount of seating isn't required for Qatar. This will help with new stadiums or old ones in certain parts of the world.

Those deaths you keep mentioning were counted/estimated for ALL types of work in Qatar, not just building the stadiums. I dont defend the country or how it operates, Im defending it's right to host the world cup. Why cant the middle east host a world cup? FIFA's own policy is one of taking the sport to all areas of the world.
 
Again, can you name which stadiums in Africa are lying wasted as you claimed? Only the upper tier of the stadiums will be transported as this amount of seating isn't required for Qatar. This will help with new stadiums or old ones in certain parts of the world.

Those deaths you keep mentioning were counted/estimated for ALL types of work in Qatar, not just building the stadiums. I dont defend the country or how it operates, Im defending it's right to host the world cup. Why cant the middle east host a world cup? FIFA's own policy is one of taking the sport to all areas of the world.

Those deaths I mentioned are specifcally related to stadiums, please google it. The Human Rights Watchs latest report says that hundreds are dying each year and the figure is even higher since the Qataris refuse to give any more assistance in investigating this. Even if the deaths were 100 a year its unacceptable.

And where have I said the middle east can't host a WC? A country like Saudi Arabia, which has a decent footballing tradition no problem. But Qatar is ridiculous, for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

Again, can you name which stadiums in Africa are lying wasted as you claimed?

I did not claim any stadiums are lying in waste in Africa, I said they are lying in waste in Brazil. And if they can lie in waste in a football-insane nation in Brazil then they will rot in a corrupt poverty stricket Africa. And all this is nonsense anyway as I said, just like the summer air-conditioned stadium hogwash. Quote me on this in five years.
 
Those deaths I mentioned are specifcally related to stadiums, please google it. The Human Rights Watchs latest report says that hundreds are dying each year and the figure is even higher since the Qataris refuse to give any more assistance in investigating this. Even if the deaths were 100 a year its unacceptable.

And where have I said the middle east can't host a WC? A country like Saudi Arabia, which has a decent footballing tradition no problem. But Qatar is ridiculous, for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.



I did not claim any stadiums are lying in waste in Africa, I said they are lying in waste in Brazil. And if they can lie in waste in a football-insane nation in Brazil then they will rot in a corrupt poverty stricket Africa. And all this is nonsense anyway as I said, just like the summer air-conditioned stadium hogwash. Quote me on this in five years.

I never said you did, I just made an extra point. Saudi Arabia or any other middle eastern nations didnt bid so FIFA gave Qatar a chance.

I have googled this before and again now. Please read this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33019838

You claimed stadiums are lying waste in South Africa and Brazil. Read your post.
 
I never said you did, I just made an extra point. Saudi Arabia or any other middle eastern nations didnt bid so FIFA gave Qatar a chance.

I have googled this before and again now. Please read this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33019838

You claimed stadiums are lying waste in South Africa and Brazil. Read your post.

South Africa does not mean the rest of African continent, hence why I specified it by location. And Brazil is not even in African.

My point was new stadiums are lying dead in a football crazed nation like Brazil

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/32073525

They will fail in poverty riddled Africa as well. And as I said, this idea is nonsense anyway. I bet you're the one who believed in the AC stadiums as well.

And :)) at giving Qatar a 'chance'
 
South Africa does not mean the rest of African continent, hence why I specified it by location. And Brazil is not even in African.

My point was new stadiums are lying dead in a football crazed nation like Brazil

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/32073525

They will fail in poverty riddled Africa as well. And as I said, this idea is nonsense anyway. I bet you're the one who believed in the AC stadiums as well.

And :)) at giving Qatar a 'chance'

South Africa is in Africa lol. I follow African football so wondered which stadium(s) which you were reffering to but I guess you said it off the cuff. I know about Brazil.

It's up to the African governments to work with FIFA to get the best out of the deal. AC or not , football is played in all sorts of conditions and players will have to adjust.
 
South Africa is in Africa lol. I follow African football so wondered which stadium(s) which you were reffering to but I guess you said it off the cuff. I know about Brazil.

It's up to the African governments to work with FIFA to get the best out of the deal. AC or not , football is played in all sorts of conditions and players will have to adjust.

Yes, the corrupt African governments will get a deal with the equally corrupt Fifa. There is no sub-saharan African nations can pay or or maintain said stadiums.

Qatar's bid was for the summer WC, their entire bid was based on the fraudalent AC stadia, which we now know is a complete lie.
 
Yes, the corrupt African governments will get a deal with the equally corrupt Fifa. There is no sub-saharan African nations can pay or or maintain said stadiums.

Qatar's bid was for the summer WC, their entire bid was based on the fraudalent AC stadia, which we now know is a complete lie.

By that logic, we shouldn't send aid or do trade with nay African nation because they are corrupt.

They have introduced a new cooling system and one of their stadiums is complete with it.
 
By that logic, we shouldn't send aid or do trade with nay African nation because they are corrupt.

They have introduced a new cooling system and one of their stadiums is complete with it.

Yes we shouldn't send aid to African governments unless its through UN. That much is common sense.

And great to hear about the cooling system, shame to see you have more faith in it than they do considering their wish is to move the WC to the winter.
 
Qatar aren't Wahabis what sort of ignorant person would make such patently false statement ?!

Women in Qatar are allowed to drive without men.
They built Al-Jazeera news network which has been a driver for open transparent journalism in the area.

Saudi by contrast is a closed society led by intolerant backward hypocritical Royal Family who go abroad to pursue their vile immoral vices.

Allowing women to drive does not change your religious sect, Qatars were always Wahabis, only an ignorant person will say otherwise.

Most of Qatar's citizens belong to the strict Wahhabi sect of Islam.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13229852

Though led by a ruling family viewed as highly progressive by Gulf standards, the fact remains that most Qataris are very conservative. Most practice Wahhabism, the austere form of Islam also practiced in Saudi Arabia.https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...conservative-traditions-idUSLNE88Q00D20120927

Even there state mosque is named after the founder of Wahabism.
 
Yes we shouldn't send aid to African governments unless its through UN. That much is common sense.

And great to hear about the cooling system, shame to see you have more faith in it than they do considering their wish is to move the WC to the winter.

The same UN which gave Assad millions through it's aid programme?

If you read the latest reports from Qatar's organisers, they are actually more happier with the new system. It cannot be held in the winter due to club teams and their commitments.
 
The same UN which gave Assad millions through it's aid programme?

If you read the latest reports from Qatar's organisers, they are actually more happier with the new system. It cannot be held in the winter due to club teams and their commitments.

Qatar's WC is being held in winter, I don't know if you're aware of this or not. As I said you had more faith in their cooling systems than they did.



As for Syria, I am not going to get into a proxy-laden ridden civil war in this thread.
 
Qatar's WC is being held in winter, I don't know if you're aware of this or not. As I said you had more faith in their cooling systems than they did.



As for Syria, I am not going to get into a proxy-laden ridden civil war in this thread.

I meant it shouldn't be held in winter due to club games(it's late). Winter there is hotter than most nations summers.

My point was the UN failed with aid to Syria, so what makes you so confident of using only them to distribute aid?
 
I meant it shouldn't be held in winter due to club games(it's late). Winter there is hotter than most nations summers.

My point was the UN failed with aid to Syria, so what makes you so confident of using only them to distribute aid?

It is being held in winter due to their summer temperatures. Average temperature in winter is around 18-23 compared to 35-40+ in summer.

As for UN, it does amazing work (its charity arm anyway not the political one) especially providing food to countless millions in refugee camps across Africa, one blunder with Assad doesn't make its work less good.
 
It is being held in winter due to their summer temperatures. Average temperature in winter is around 18-23 compared to 35-40+ in summer.

As for UN, it does amazing work (its charity arm anyway not the political one) especially providing food to countless millions in refugee camps across Africa, one blunder with Assad doesn't make its work less good.

Thats pretty obvious but it can reach up to 30c in the winter too.

UN coordinates with governments when it comes to many of it's aid programmes, Africa is no different.
 
Thats pretty obvious but it can reach up to 30c in the winter too.

UN coordinates with governments when it comes to many of it's aid programmes, Africa is no different.

It can but its very rare hence the average which is more common by definition. I don't even know why we're arguing about this when we have established they lied on their bid. As having a WC in winter will disrupt all major leagues. And the reason they are doing it in winter is because of summer temperatues, hence the failed drama of AC stadia.

UN runs its own regional offices in a dozen African states and is backed by various UN peace keeping forces who oversee dispensation of aid as one of their objectives. Most programmes like the world food prgaramme feeding tens of millions is run at grass-root levels, which bypasses the central government or their involvement is minimal. Its reflected in their success, last year 80 million were fed successfully in corrupt/war-torn/broken down countries. Giving aid directly to corrupt looters is less desirable than passing it to UN despite its short-comings.

I know you'll keep on arguing for the sake of arguing and I can't be bothered. You're literally the only person I know who's advocating for Qatar, more power to you I guess.
 
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