Libya under Gaddafi - The Good and the Bad. And the situation now

[Yossarian]

Some claim that Libyans are better off now than they were under Gadaffi's rule, despite the fact that the country is split, there is an ongoing civil war, warlords run their own patches of the country, Isis linked groups are plentiful and operating freely.

So lets compare the Good v Bad under Gaddafi's rule.

The Good.

* Gender equality actually a reality.Women in Libya were free to work and dress as they liked, subject to family constraints. Imagine that in an Arab country!

• If a Libyan was unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she was employed until employment is found.

• Should Libyans wished to take up a farming career, they received farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms –this was all for free.

• There was no electricity bills in Libya; electricity was free … for all its citizens.

• There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya were state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

* A mother who give birth to a child would receive US $5,000.

• When a Libyan bought a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.

* Education and medical treatments was all free in Libya. Libya boasted one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people had access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.

• If Libyans could not find the education or medical facilities they needed in Libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it – not only free but they received US $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.

* Libya is in a desert region with very little fresh water. Government started "The Great Man-Made River Project" to make plentiful water available to every citizen and every home in the country

* Libya had no external debt and had reserves of $150 billion, although most of that was frozen by the West.

* Libya had the 3rd lowest price of petrol for motorists, at $0.14 per lite.

* Having a home was considered a human right. The Govt. gave grants and easy loans to buy your home.

* Newlyweds received $50,000 to buy their first apartment so as to help start a family.

* The Human Development Index was better than two-thirds of the countries reported on. Way Better than most Arab countries. Miles better than the countries of the sub-continent.

* Undernourishment was less than 5% with a daily calorie intake of 3144. India and Pakistan can only dream of that.

* Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. When he was removed the figure was 83%, with nearly all of those still illiterate being the ones already adults by the time Gaddafi came into power.

* The Government was in the process of privatizing all Libyan oil to every citizen of Libya, which would have resulted in $21,000 being given to every Libyan citizen, man, woman and child.

Source: various, inc. CNN.com


The 'Bad'.

* Gaddafi was a brutal dictator.
* Imprisoned and tortured political opponents.
And, oh yes, he was also 'bad' because he was anti-Israel.

Discuss.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Do you have a source for the claims made in the top list? Like where about on CNN.com?

This guy, for example, claims the list is rather inaccurate.

Libya then and now - a response


1There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
Categorically untrue. Despite poor electricity infrastructure and poor coverage of electricity lines, even in the Capital, Libyan home owners pay monthly/quarterly (area dependant) electricity bills based on meter readings. Electricity is cut off in instances of unpaid bills. Reconnection upon payment is not instant. The electric infrastructure is week and some areas of Libya do not have electricity available at all.
2There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.
Categorically untrue. Banks all over Libya have been giving out loans for years and years. There is a percentage rate charge on all loans, which is comparable to an interest rate, but in the spirit of ‘islamic ethics’ it is not called interest, it is called an ‘Administrative Expense’
3Having a home considered a human right in Libya.
Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi¹s father has died while he, his wife and his mother are still living in a tent. Well Gaddafi abused this human right as much as he did other basic rights. It is well known in Libya that political opponents, or just successful business men/women, had their homes confiscated and handed over to regime members, usually rewards for Free Officers
4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.
This is a well-known rumour and a common joke in Libya. Whilst it may have been passed as official legislation, I don’t know even a single family who has been given this grant. The backbreaking bureaucracy associated with such grants and loans make them more or less impossible to obtain.
5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.
Education and Health Care – Free does not mean adequate. It is well known that Libya’s standard of health care is nothing short of appalling. It is widely known that the majority of Libyans seeking medical care leave for neighbouring countries for treatment. Our Education system is no better. It is outdated, teachers are underpaid and under-trained and libraries are largely non-existent. The syllabus was constantly being revised and reviewed under direct instruction from the former regime e.g. banning English, changing Quranic verses, etc.It is commonly said that Libyans would be happy to forfeit their ‘free health care’ and pay for a National Health Service if it was up to the required standard.
6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipment, seeds and livestock to kick start their farms are all for free.
This has never happened, in addition to this many farms and homes have been confiscated by the government to build railroads, The Great Man Made River and civil roads. The owners of the land were only compensated if there was a covered structure on the land as the Gaddafi regime legally owned any land and the people were only allowed to build on it. When there was compensation offered it was nowhere near the actual value of the property and many waited years to receive anything if at all. This system was also rife with corruption many residents told they had to pay a bribe to receive what little they were given.
7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance
Categorically untrue. If this was the case, the former regime would have been in receipt of 6 million application forms – one for every man, women and child who ‘cannot find education or medical facilities they need’. This grant does not exist for the mainstream public. There is anecdotal evidence of some medical grants being given
8.If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.
And
9.The price of petrol in Libya is is $0.14 per liter.
There is no truth to the former Gaddafi regime paying 50% of the value of a new car. Whilst the price of fuel is indeed cheap, the quality of roads, the accuracy and availability of road signs, the presence of road traffic police, and all other transport infrastructure is of abysmal standard. The absence of an integrated and functional public transport system means that people are reliant on their cars for all movement and might end up paying more on fuel than our neighbours around the Mediterranean basin.
10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
Whilst our sovereign wealth is undeniable, none of it was spent on the people of Libya nor the infrastructure of the country. Basic amenities, services, and state infrastructure are either absent or of appalling standard.The availability of money is not tantamount to wealth or prosperity.
11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.
Categorically untrue. Even basic wages are sometimes unpaid for months, for those lucky enough to be employed. Welfare for the unemployed is non-existent.
12. A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
No basis to this claim as no such case can be found.
13. A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.
There is a Child Benefit welfare payment in Libya – it is roughly 15-20 Libyan Dinars a month per child. No Libyan citizen was given foreign currency as compensation.
14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.
Bread was subsidized by the state. Whilst the price varies (marginally) from shop to shop, bread usually costs ¼ dinars for 10 baguettes (small) or roughly 500grams per dinar.
15. 25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.
The absence of a comprehensive selection process and a corrupt entry protocol means that universities in Libya are grossly over populated and oversubscribed, despite limited facilities. This results in an over inflated number of graduates, but not necessarily an adequate level of employability. There are thousands of students studying foundation year medicine in Tripoli alone.
16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Manmade River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
True.

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Libya-then-and-now-a-response-20150921

 

[King-Misbah]

Some claim that Libyans are better off now than they were under Gadaffi's rule, despite the fact that the country is split, there is an ongoing civil war, warlords run their own patches of the country, Isis linked groups are plentiful and operating freely.

So lets compare the Good v Bad under Gaddafi's rule.

The Good.

* Gender equality actually a reality.Women in Libya were free to work and dress as they liked, subject to family constraints. Imagine that in an Arab country!

• If a Libyan was unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she was employed until employment is found.

• Should Libyans wished to take up a farming career, they received farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms –this was all for free.

• There was no electricity bills in Libya; electricity was free … for all its citizens.

• There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya were state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

* A mother who give birth to a child would receive US $5,000.

• When a Libyan bought a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.

* Education and medical treatments was all free in Libya. Libya boasted one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people had access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.

• If Libyans could not find the education or medical facilities they needed in Libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it – not only free but they received US $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.

* Libya is in a desert region with very little fresh water. Government started "The Great Man-Made River Project" to make plentiful water available to every citizen and every home in the country

* Libya had no external debt and had reserves of $150 billion, although most of that was frozen by the West.

* Libya had the 3rd lowest price of petrol for motorists, at $0.14 per lite.

* Having a home was considered a human right. The Govt. gave grants and easy loans to buy your home.

* Newlyweds received $50,000 to buy their first apartment so as to help start a family.

* The Human Development Index was better than two-thirds of the countries reported on. Way Better than most Arab countries. Miles better than the countries of the sub-continent.

* Undernourishment was less than 5% with a daily calorie intake of 3144. India and Pakistan can only dream of that.

* Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. When he was removed the figure was 83%, with nearly all of those still illiterate being the ones already adults by the time Gaddafi came into power.

* The Government was in the process of privatizing all Libyan oil to every citizen of Libya, which would have resulted in $21,000 being given to every Libyan citizen, man, woman and child.

Source: various, inc. CNN.com


The 'Bad'.

* Gaddafi was a brutal dictator.
* Imprisoned and tortured political opponents.
And, oh yes, he was also 'bad' because he was anti-Israel.

Discuss.

I was recently talking to a Libyan and she said that Libya under Gaddafi was a thousand times better then the current state.

 

[pakistani pride]

WOW. If opening post is right then it was heaven on earth actually. Hard to believe.

 

[Yossarian]

Do you have a source for the claims made in the top list? Like where about on CNN.com?

This guy, for example, claims the list is rather inaccurate.



http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Libya-then-and-now-a-response-20150921

What he says may or may not be true. In the same way there are numerous articles on various media websites saying quite the opposite.
Years ago, as a student, I came accross some Libyan students who appeared to be in receipt of extremely generous monthly allowances, paid by the Libyan govt for studying in the UK.

This is not an original article by a news24.com reporter, but copy/pasted from some anti-Gaddafi die-hard's blog.

Note the headline of the article

Lies spread by stupid people about Libya, which is happy that the outdated system with which the dictator Gadaffi ruled the country for decades is gone now!


I dont know why, i think mainly because he hold up a system which was similar to the one of the former eastern block (some kind of socialism) some oldfashioned dinosaurs still thinking that this system is the best still sing halleluja, when they hear Gadaffi...

http://www.allsiam.net/libya/

Not exactly a genuine, impartial newsworthy source wouldn't you say?

 

[Pakistanian]

I had relatives that lived in Qaddafis Libya until the civil war in 2011 and they said it was really nice and Libyans had a high quality of living as in any other oil rich arab country. In fact Libya had the highest quality of living in Africa, and it was really modernizing in the late 2000s when Tripoli was seeing a lot of development as they wanted to "beat Dubai" by 2020.

 

[LongHorn]

The rebuttals seem fair, but still he was a better leader than the current system...

I find it hard to believe very car was subsidized by 50%.

Based on people who worked in Libya in the 90s and 00s, the average Libyan had a living standard similar to that of the poorer Gulf nations like Oman and Bahrain.

So definitely a very good living standard for North Africans, even if many of the items in the list were not applied...

But his biggest legacy was stability, which does not look like returning anytime soon ....

 

[big_gamer007]

Surely the OP has huge exaggerations? If it was true then Libya would have been heaven on earth and you would not find many anti gadaffi people..

 

[hafeezrocks]

Why would the people even revolt and overthrow Gaddafi if Libya was such a heaven?

 

[IAJ]

You talk to any egypian, lybian, Syrian or Iraqi today they will say things were better before. There was alot of brutality before as well but not as bad as today.

 

[GBK_Fan]

I am yet to see the link for the claims in the OP

 

[King-Misbah]

Why would the people even revolt and overthrow Gaddafi if Libya was such a heaven?

It was part of the country called Bengazi.

 

[ManFan]

Dictatorship ensures stability and government controlled " command " economy. Democracy ensures political division and economic fluctuation. But never underestimate a man's determination to be free.

 

[JaDed]

I was born there so I can tell you till the 80's and early 90's it was a great place to be,there were issues similar to Arab countries of bias but it was relatively peaceful and easy going but in noway was it comparable to Dubai even then or even after 2000 and esp after 2010.

For economic immigrants it was only good till 2003,it was going downhill since then,when many desis atleast near the coastal cities had started either migrating to Canada or moving to some other gulf country or even returning back home.

Gaddafi was a good leader initially but he didn't have a vision ,and didn't groom anyone as such, so its downfall was easy to predict someday,esp considering he didn't have many friends.

 

[Varun]

Gaddafi was a good leader initially but he didn't have a vision ,and didn't groom anyone as such, so its downfall was easy to predict someday,esp considering he didn't have many friends.

Sounds like the Libyan equivalent of Jayalalitha then?

 

[JaDed]

Sounds like the Libyan equivalent of Jayalalitha then?

Jaya was ok to lose elections,don't think his ego would had been able to talk anything remote to that.

 

[Madplayer]

How true is the news that he wanted a separate Arab currency for Arab countries , something along the lines of Euro? There was a theory that this was the reason why US changed his regime.

 

[MenInG]

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said "some agreements" have been reached with his US counterpart Donald Trump that could herald a "new era" in the conflict in Libya.

Turkey supports the internationally recognised government of Fayez al-Sarraj, whose forces have in recent weeks driven back an assault on the capital, Tripoli, by the forces of renegade commander Khalifa Haftar.

While the US officially supports Libya's UN-recognised Government of National Accord (GNA), Haftar is supported by Washington's allies - Egypt, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), France, and Saudi Arabia - as well as Russia.

"After our call this evening, there could be a new era between the US and Turkey regarding the (Libya) process," Erdogan told state broadcaster TRT on Monday.

"We reached some agreements during our call", he said, and alluded to a "possible step" the two countries could take together, but offered no details.

A White House statement said Trump and Erdogan discussed the war in the North African country, as well as Syria and the wider eastern Mediterranean region, but gave no details.

INTERACTIVE: Libya Control map - June 9, 2020
Turkey's support for the GNA has helped shift the balance in the country, leading the Tripoli-based forces to score a string of military victories in the country's west and around Tripoli, inflicting a heavy blow to Haftar's year-long campaign to capture the capital.

Last week, GNA forces also recaptured Tripoli's airport, gaining the upper hand against Haftar's Libyan National Army (LNA) based in the country's east - the seat of the rival administration.

On Monday, the GNA's forces launched offensive to seize the strategic city of Sirte, as it rejected a unilateral ceasefire proposed over the weekend by Egypt, a Haftar ally.

Egypt had called for a ceasefire starting Monday, as part of an initiative which also proposed an elected leadership council for Libya. Haftar's other supporters, Russia and the UAE, welcomed the proposal.

But Erdogan, whose support for the GNA's forces helped change the course of the war, said the GNA would continue fighting to seize the coastal city of Sirte and the Jufra airbase further south in a strategic region of the oil-exporting country.

"Now the goal is to take over the whole Sirte area and get it done. These are areas with the oil wells, these are of great importance," the Turkish president said.

Erdogan said he would also discuss Moscow's role in Libya with President Vladimir Putin, including what he said was the supply of Russian planes and Pantsir air defences to Haftar's forces.

"They have Pantsirs there, they sent 19 warplanes to Libya," Erdogan said. "After talking with him, we can plan ahead."

Meanwhile, on Tuesday, Libya's National Oil Corporation (NOC) said an "armed force" had entered the Sharara oilfield and told employees to shut the oilfield, hours after maintenance operations started.

Al Jazeera's Mamoud Abdelwahed, reporting from Tripoli, noted the facility is the country's largest oilfield with a production capacity of 300,000 barrels of oil per day.

"It's a major loss for the country and for the NOC," said Abdelwahed. "An armed group stormed the facility and pulled weapons on the workers there and forced them to shut down production just three days after it resumed. The group is affiliated to Haftar."

Brigadier Mohammed Khalifa, commander of the oil facilities guard force in the country's south, which answers to Haftar, requested the operations at the Sharara oilfield, about 900km (560 miles) south of Tripoli, to be halted.

NOC said it instructed employees to reject "any military orders" regarding the operating and the maintenance of the field. However, two engineers at the field said they already halted operations, and the field was re-closed. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to brief the media.

The Libyan oil company said it again invoked force majeure, a contract clause that frees a party from liability whenever an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond its control takes place.

The Hamada pipeline running from Libya's Sharara oilfield had just been reopened on Sunday, the Petroleum Facilities Guards said after it closed during a blockade on oil exports.

Production resumed following negotiations with the tribes to end its closure, in place since January. Production also resumed on Monday in the al-Feel oil field.

Sharara was to restart at a capacity of 30,000 barrels a day, with an expected return to full capacity within three months.

Oil, the lifeline of Libya's economy, has long been a key factor in the civil war, as rival authorities jostle for control of oil fields and state revenue. Libya has the ninth largest known oil reserves in the world and the biggest oil reserves in Africa.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/06/erdogan-agreements-reached-trump-libya-200609055232569.html

 

[MenInG]

Turkey has dismissed Egypt's proposal for a ceasefire in Libya, saying the plan aimed to save renegade military commander Khalifa Haftar after the collapse of his 14-month military push to seize the capital.

Ankara supports Libyan Prime Minister Fayez al-Serraj's internationally recognised Government of National Accord (GNA), whose forces have in recent weeks repelled the assault on Tripoli by Haftar's self-styled Libyan National Army (LNA), backed by the United Arab Emirates, Egypt and Russia.

Egypt called for a ceasefire starting on Monday, as part of an initiative that also proposed an elected leadership council for Libya. Russia and the UAE welcomed the plan, while Germany said United Nations-backed talks were key to the peace process.

However, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu on Wednesday dismissed the proposal as an attempt to save Haftar following the losses he suffered on the battlefield.

"The ceasefire effort in Cairo was stillborn. If a ceasefire is to be signed, it should be done at a platform that brings everyone together," Cavusoglu told the Hurriyet Daily News. "The ceasefire call to save Haftar does not seem sincere or believable to us."

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his United States counterpart, President Donald Trump, discussed Libya in a call on Monday. Erdogan said the two agreed on "some issues" on Libya, and that the GNA would continue fighting to seize the coastal city of Sirte and the Al-Jufra airbase further south from Haftar's forces.

Cavusoglu said Erdogan and Trump had delegated their foreign and defence ministers, intelligence chiefs and security advisers to discuss possible steps in Libya.

Separately, Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar told the A Haber television station that Haftar will "certainly disappear" if his battlefield losses continue to accrue.

"As the support behind him is withdrawn, lifted, Haftar will certainly disappear there," said Akar.

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo for his part welcomed the resumption of talks led by the United Nations and urged speedy negotiations to achieve a ceasefire.

"The agreement between the GNA and LNA to re-enter UN security talks was a good first step, very positive," Pompeo said in a news conference on Wednesday.

"Quick and good-faith negotiations are now required to implement a ceasefire and relaunch the UN-led intra-Libyan political talks," Pompeo said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...ffer-attempt-save-haftar-200610134125828.html

 

[Local.Dada]

Quick question, why did Pakistan name their main cricket stadium in Lahore after Gadaffi of all people?

In India I have seen a couple of memorials named after say Mandela or Mother Teresa but that makes sense but why Gadaffi.

Just want to understand if there was any historical or political context to it or if there is a more local subcontinent Gadaffi.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Quick question, why did Pakistan name their main cricket stadium in Lahore after Gadaffi of all people?

Does a quick question means it has to be answered quickly?

 

[Local.Dada]

Does a quick question means it has to be answered quickly?

Yes and that’s what I expected. There you go that’s how a quick response works

 

[cric_man]

Quick question, why did Pakistan name their main cricket stadium in Lahore after Gadaffi of all people?

In India I have seen a couple of memorials named after say Mandela or Mother Teresa but that makes sense but why Gadaffi.

Just want to understand if there was any historical or political context to it or if there is a more local subcontinent Gadaffi.

The name was changed in 1974 while Qaddafi was visiting Pakistan for the OIC summit. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (PM at that time) was very close with Qaddafi. And was a big proponent of socialist movement amongst Muslim countries.

Karachi's of the main arterial road is named after the late King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, so is the largest mosque in Islamabad.

 

[JaDed]

The name was changed in 1974 while Qaddafi was visiting Pakistan for the OIC summit. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (PM at that time) was very close with Qaddafi. And was a big proponent of socialist movement amongst Muslim countries.

Karachi's of the main arterial road is named after the late King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, so is the largest mosque in Islamabad.

Till 1974 he wasn't a "socialist" per se, also how did Bhutto a socialist align with America?

During the same period, however, Gaddafi was very clear in expressing his anti-Communism. In 1971, he sent a plane full of Sudanese Communists back to Sudan where they were executed by Nimeiry. In 1973 the regime published an official document to commemorate the fourth anniversary of Gaddafi’s rise to power, under the title “Holy War Against Communism” in which we read that, “the biggest threat facing man nowadays is the communist theory.”

https://www.marxist.com/nature-of-gaddafi-regime.htm

 

[cric_man]

Till 1974 he wasn't a "socialist" per se, also how did Bhutto a socialist align with America?



https://www.marxist.com/nature-of-gaddafi-regime.htm

Bhutto didn't really align with the US at all. Pak-Us relations post 71 were distant at best. It was not until the Afghan war post 79 that they thawed. US/Pakistan militaries did have cordial relationships but it was limited to cross training. We were part of CENTO/SEATO more due to Turkey & Iran. Once Shah of Iran was toppled, that relationship evaporated as well

 

[cric_man]

Till 1974 he wasn't a "socialist" per se, also how did Bhutto a socialist align with America?



https://www.marxist.com/nature-of-gaddafi-regime.htm

I meant have socialist leaning. Bhutto nationalized pretty much all performing industries in Pakistan and essentially destroyed fledging Education, Banking, Shipping units by nationalizing them.

 

[JaDed]

Bhutto didn't really align with the US at all. Pak-Us relations post 71 were distant at best. It was not until the Afghan war post 79 that they thawed. US/Pakistan militaries did have cordial relationships but it was limited to cross training. We were part of CENTO/SEATO more due to Turkey & Iran. Once Shah of Iran was toppled, that relationship evaporated as well

I meant have socialist leaning. Bhutto nationalized pretty much all performing industries in Pakistan and essentially destroyed fledging Education, Banking, Shipping units by nationalizing them.

Thanks got it

 

[shaykh]

The idea of a social contract is something the Gulf does too ...ie you are provided everything and in return you don’t oppose the state ...

There are arguments which point to that as being linked to a lack of development or innovation ...and moving away from oil reliance for example ...and having skilled work provided by expats ...

Simply having everything provided isn’t as such indicative of a better society than those who don’t ...I guess the question one has to ask himself is if they would be willing to give up their freedom of expression in exchange for having their needs taken care of...I’d still choose the UK...

As for whether it’s worse now...absolutely...one thing the OP didn’t mention is just how skilled Gaddafi was at managing tribes ...the evidence of that is the anarchy that still exists now ...it’s interesting to see what’s happening with Haftar at the moment ...and whether he will eventually rule...if he does it will be with an iron fist ...and he’s even more opposed to islamists than Gaddafi was ...

That Libya is still at war obviously suggests life under Gaddafi was better cos frankly none of the factions who have tried to fill the vacuum have proven themselves any less brutal ...

 

[Local.Dada]

The name was changed in 1974 while Qaddafi was visiting Pakistan for the OIC summit. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (PM at that time) was very close with Qaddafi. And was a big proponent of socialist movement amongst Muslim countries.

Karachi's of the main arterial road is named after the late King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, so is the largest mosque in Islamabad.

Thanks

 

[MenInG]

The UN expressed "horror" after at least eight mass graves were discovered in an area retaken by the country's internationally recognised government from renegade military commander Khalifa Haftar's forces.

According to the Tripoli-based Government of National Accord (GNA), most of the graves were found in Tarhuna, Haftar's last stronghold in western Libya. The city was used by his forces as a launchpad during an ill-fated 14-month offensive to seize the capital from the GNA.

 

[shaykh]

The UN expressed "horror" after at least eight mass graves were discovered in an area retaken by the country's internationally recognised government from renegade military commander Khalifa Haftar's forces.

According to the Tripoli-based Government of National Accord (GNA), most of the graves were found in Tarhuna, Haftar's last stronghold in western Libya. The city was used by his forces as a launchpad during an ill-fated 14-month offensive to seize the capital from the GNA.

Haftar will win this ...he’s got a lot of backers ...since day 1 the emiratis have been arming him...even violated a UN arms embargo ...Russians support him...the Saudis...the French ...Sudanese mercenaries fighting for him too ...Egypt ...the Arab states pretty much like Haftar cos he hates the Muslim Brotherhood...UAE is the big player ...and they have been anti-Turkey for a while now...accused them of new-Ottoman intentions in Libya ...they are allegedly funding the PKK too so as per usual we have a little proxy war going on ...

GNA are a bit screwed ...the US have turned their back on them ...they pretty much just have the Turks and Qataris backing them ...

 

[AdamM97]

Fragile countries with a weak economy and largely uneducated populace are better off with a strongman than a weak democratically elected man imho. Too many stakeholders with conflicting interests and aspirations.

This is what South Korea did between the 60s and 80s where the military dictator ruled until the country had achieved economic growth and industrialization.

Besides, the Arab spring has had more negative impacts on the Middle East and North Africa. The revolution might have started off with good intentions but rarely do such revolutions bring about positive changes. As the Conservative thinker Edmund Burke once said:
”rage and phrenzy will pull down more in half an hour, than prudence, deliberation, and foresight can build up in an hundred years.”

 

[JaDed]

Fragile countries with a weak economy and largely uneducated populace are better off with a strongman than a weak democratically elected man imho. Too many stakeholders with conflicting interests and aspirations.

This is what South Korea did between the 60s and 80s where the military dictator ruled until the country had achieved economic growth and industrialization.

Besides, the Arab spring has had more negative impacts on the Middle East and North Africa. The revolution might have started off with good intentions but rarely do such revolutions bring about positive changes. As the Conservative thinker Edmund Burke once said:
”rage and phrenzy will pull down more in half an hour, than prudence, deliberation, and foresight can build up in an hundred years.”

The dictator needs to build up decentralized industrialization as well, South Korea chose capitalism, Qadaffi after 1974 chose socialism , nationalized everything.

The example here is not the same as he did rule from 1969-2009 atleast.

 

[AdamM97]

The dictator needs to build up decentralized industrialization as well, South Korea chose capitalism, Qadaffi after 1974 chose socialism , nationalized everything.

The example here is not the same as he did rule from 1969-2009 atleast.

Not necessarily. China’s state capitalism or ”capitalism with Chinese characteristics” is a good example of centralized capitalism and industrialization.

 

[JaDed]

Not necessarily. China’s state capitalism or ”capitalism with Chinese characteristics” is a good example of centralized capitalism and industrialization.

Yes but again he didn't do anything remotely near that.. he nationalized everything in 1974, inspite of detesting communism till then.

He started with Libyan capitalism but converted it into state socialism in 1974 .. which is what dictators that want short terms solutions do.

China is a rare example one shouldn't also forget the IQ of China is very high.(it might not be a measure of intelligence but it helps in quick improvements).

 

[sweep_shot]

Libya is now a failed state. It is unlikely they will come out of this hole anytime soon.

Quite sad.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Funny how Oman is held as a beacon and Gadaffi was treated like a dog.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/02/libya-election-plans-in-chaos-as-un-accused-of-breaching-mandate

Efforts to set the terms for presidential and parliamentary elections in Libya on 24 December are mired in chaos, as UN officials are accused of breaching their mandate by facilitating efforts to prevent them going ahead.

The UN admitted it was facing difficult splits among the 75-strong body it set up last year to choose an interim government and agree the roadmap to the elections.

At a bitter and ill-tempered week-long meeting in Geneva, marred by allegations of bribery, some of the Libyan Political Dialogue Forum (LPDF) delegates managed to persuade UN officials to allow them to reopen the issue of whether presidential elections should be held, or whether there should first be a referendum on a constitution under which the president will operate.

But other delegates, convinced the existing political class is manoeuvring to stay in power without elections, said the issue of whether the election should go ahead had already been settled last year and subsequently endorsed by a UN security council resolution in April and then at a meeting of world powers in Berlin in June.

In a statement, 26 members of the forum condemned the UN after it proposed the LPDF vote on a range of options including keeping the current unelected government in power, and only holding an election for a new parliament. The current Government of National Unity, bringing the east and west of the country together, was set up in March 2021 and is led by the businessman Abdul Hamid Dbeibah. His government’s primary mandate was to prepare for the elections with a deadline of 1 July set to give officials time to prepare an electoral roll.

The week-long meeting outside Geneva has been described as chaotic, with delegates nearly coming to blows and claims of threatening WhatsApp messages and political bribery. Much of the bargaining is being held in secret away from the main conference site, and at one point exasperated UN officials admitted their inability to find a solution and suggested three elders be chosen from the group to mediate.

Some of the sessions are being screened live back to Libyans sweltering in a two-week heatwave and enduring lengthy power cuts.

The UN’s special envoy to Libya, Jan Kubis, has not been present due to having Covid, but over a shaky Zoom line he urged delegates on Thursday to end the “intolerable personal abuse”.

The idea of an election for a president, a new post in Libya, answerable to parliament was endorsed by the UN security council in April.

Elham Saudi, a member of the LPDF, told the Guardian from Geneva that the process for charting Libya’s political future was “wayward and out of control”.

She said: “What is happening right now is in total breach of the agreed roadmap, the Berlin peace process, and the relevant UN security council resolution. The UN’s leadership is entertaining proposals that would result in keeping the current government in place in clear breach of the roadmap.

“There is a significant risk with these deals being made off-site that women, civil society and minorities get sidelined, which is a breach of the UN security council mandate. When there is a lack of transparency, it is impossible to know the terms of any deal being struck.”

She added: “Foreign governments pay for UN officials and set their mandate, and they now need to intervene to bring these officials back under control.”

Tarek Megerisi, a Libya analyst at the European Council on Foreign Relations, said the Geneva meeting was “dangerously unravelling [and] charting a course that diverges from the Berlin process and the UN security council resolutions, which will cause division and spoil elections”.

He said LPDF participants that wanted a democratic government in Libya needed outside support and pressure on the UN to salvage the issue.

In a letter to Kubis, the leader of the Ihya Libya party, the former diplomat Aref Ali Nayed, said he feared for his country if the elections were not held, adding there was a repetition of the corruption that had disfigured the appointment of the previous government.

The opposition to the presidential election stems from a mix of interest groups, including those already in power, those that fear the rules will disqualify their candidate from standing and those concerned an election would be too divisive in a highly polarised society bereft of a unified security force. Political power in Libya has long been a source of patronage and enrichment.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/libyas-warring-sides-including-russian-mercenaries-may-be-guilty-crimes-un-2021-10-04/

Russian mercenaries in Libya killed detainees, among the possible war crimes committed by multiple sides in the conflict, U.N. human rights investigators said on Monday, adding that they had drawn up a confidential list of suspects.

Libya has been in turmoil for a decade, with the last several years seeing war between forces backing rival governments based in the east and west, supported by regional powers, foreign fighters and mercenaries. Russia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates backed the eastern forces, while Turkey backed the government in the west.

"The investigations indicated that several parties to the conflicts violated (international humanitarian law) and potentially committed war crimes," the U.N. fact-finding mission, led by Mohamed Auajjar, said in its first report.

The report specifically accused mercenaries from Wagner, a Russian security firm, of having shot prisoners in September 2019. "There are thus reasonable grounds to believe that Wagner personnel may have committed the war crime of murder," it said.

It also said Wagner personnel had left behind a computer tablet with a map showing 35 locations where land mines were planted near civilian buildings, in areas abandoned by retreating eastern forces. The mines, mostly made in Russia, had killed and maimed civilians returning to their homes since June 2020, it said.

Reuters was not immediately able to reach Wagner, and the secretive firm has not responded to questions about its activities in the past. When asked last year about allegations of Russian mercenary activity in Libya, President Vladimir Putin said that if any Russians were fighting there they did not represent the Russian state.

Major combat in Libya has been paused since last year after an advance on the capital by the eastern forces was pushed back in 2020, and both sides have accepted a ceasefire and unity interim government. An election is planned for December.

Libya's foreign minister said on Sunday that some foreign fighters had left the country as the unity government seeks to marshal international help to withdraw the rest.

The three-member panel's report to the Human Rights Council, delayed by budget constraints, was based on hundreds of documents, satellite imagery, interviews with more than 150 people and investigations in Libya, Tunisia and Italy.

Much of Libya has been dominated since the 2011 NATO-backed rising against Muammar Gaddafi by myriad armed groups battling for control of territory and economic assets - including the illegal traffic in migrants fleeing conflict and instability.

Torture and other abuses perpetrated on a "daily basis" in Libyan prisons by state authorities and militias against detained migrants may amount to crimes against humanity, the independent experts said.

"It is quite clear that the (European Union) pushback policies at sea have led to huge violations of human rights...of migrants, leading to detention in Libya upon return," said panel member Chaloka Beyani.

The U.N. investigators identified the suspected perpetrator of one of the worst abuses - killings carried out by an armed group in the town of Tarhouna with victims buried in mass graves - as Mohammed al-Kani, a commander they said was himself killed in July during a raid by the eastern-based Libyan National Army.

"The scale of the atrocities in Tarhouna demand far more focused attention including forensic investigations," panel expert Tracy Robinson told reporters.

Kani's armed group had been fighting alongside the LNA for years and had found refuge in LNA-held territory after being driven from Tarhouna. Neither the LNA nor police in Benghazi had previously confirmed the killing of Kani. Reuters was not able to contact his representatives.

 

[cric_man]

Nobody knows where billions of dollars worth of Lybian oil is going to since 2010.

Sometimes oil becomes a curse for the country.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/un-libya-mediator-quits-weeks-before-planned-election-diplomats-2021-11-23/

The United Nations Libya mediator Jan Kubis is stepping down, a U.N. spokesman said on Tuesday, less than a year after he took up the role and a month before planned elections in the country.

The United Nations is informally suggesting veteran British diplomat Nicholas Kay as a replacement, said diplomats, speaking on condition of anonymity. The 15-member U.N. Security Council, operating by consensus, must approve a new appointment.

U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres accepted Kubis' resignation "with regret," spokesman Stephane Dujarric said. When asked when Kubis would leave, Dujarric said: "Mr Kubis has made it clear that he's not slamming the door today."

"He, more than anyone, does not want to have the mission destabilized in any way, shape, or form," he said.

"The Secretary-General is working on an appropriate replacement. We are fully aware of the electoral calendar and are working as quickly as possible to ensure continuity of leadership," Dujarric said.

Kubis is a former Slovak foreign minister who has also served as the U.N. special coordinator for Lebanon and the U.N. special envoy in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Security Council approved his appointment as Libya mediator in January, succeeding Ghassan Salame, who quit in March 2020 due to stress.

It was not immediately clear why Kubis was stepping down. Dujarric said the resignation "did not come as a complete surprise", but did not give further details.

Libya descended into chaos after the NATO-backed overthrow of longtime autocrat Muammar Gaddafi in 2011. In October last year, the two major sides in Libya's war - the internationally recognized Government of National Accord and Khalifa Haftar's eastern-based Libyan National Army - agreed a ceasefire.

Parliamentary and presidential elections on Dec. 24 were demanded by a U.N. political forum last year as part of a roadmap to end Libya's civil war. However, disputes over the planned vote threaten to derail the peace process.

A first-round presidential vote is set for Dec. 24 and the parliamentary election has been delayed to January or February. However, rules for the elections have not yet been agreed.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/why-libyas-election-has-collapsed-what-comes-next-2021-12-22/

Libya said on Wednesday its planned election would not take place but it has not set a new date or worked out how to move forward to avoid a return to conflict.

Libya fell apart after the 2011 uprising against Muammar Gaddafi and split in 2014 between warring eastern and western factions. The peace process follows the collapse in 2020 of eastern commander Khalifa Haftar's 14-month assault on Tripoli.

Eastern and southern areas are held by Haftar's LNA, with western areas including Tripoli held by various armed forces that backed the government there.

A year ago the United Nations held talks between delegates from all factions to chart a path forward. They agreed to install a unity government to rule until simultaneous parliamentary and presidential elections on Dec. 24.

Libya's old institutions, along with major factions and potential candidates, did not agree on rules for the election including its schedule, what powers the new president or parliament would have, and who could run.

Parliament speaker Aguila Saleh, who is a presidential candidate, issued a law setting a first round of the presidential election for Dec. 24 with a second round run-off and the parliamentary election to come afterwards.

Putting the presidential vote first meant the election came down to a winner-takes-all contest between candidates from violently opposing factions.

Other political institutions rejected the law, accusing Saleh of passing it without any proper parliamentary process.

However, Saleh's law formed the basis of the electoral process and disputes over it grew wider as very divisive candidates entered the contest.

Some 98 people candidates registered for the presidential race - including some who were seen as unacceptable in parts of the country or to powerful armed factions.

Saif al-Islam Gaddafi registered despite his conviction in absentia by a Tripoli court in 2015 of war crimes during the rebellion that ousted his father Muammar Gaddafi in 2011.

Eastern commander Khalifa Haftar, whose Libyan National Army waged a destructive 14-month offensive against Tripoli, is rejected as a possible president by armed factions and many people in western areas.

Abdulhamid al-Dbeibah, the interim prime minister, had promised not to stand for election when he was appointed. Other candidates say his presence on the ballot is unfair.

Without clear agreement on the rules, let alone on who would enforce them or adjudicate disputes, the electoral commission, the parliament's election committee and the fragmented judiciary were unable to agree a final list of eligible candidates.

Most of Libya is controlled by armed forces that back rival candidates and without extensive independent monitoring there would likely be claims of fraud or voter intimidation.

Two incidents last month showed the risks. Fighters closed a court to stop Gaddafi's lawyers lodging an appeal against his disqualification. And the electoral commission said fighters had raided several of its offices, stealing voting cards.

A disputed result could rapidly unravel the peace process, replicating the aftermath of the 2014 election when warring factions backed rival administrations.

The electoral commission has suggested a one-month delay but the parliament may seek a longer one. Negotiations continue among candidates, Libya's political institutions and foreign powers.

A short delay may not be enough to resolve the arguments that derailed Friday's vote. However, fixing those problems could require more time, raising questions over whether the interim government could stay in place.

The future of Dbeibah and his government during the coming period has rapidly become one of the main topics of dispute among rival camps.

If the peace process falls apart there is a risk that eastern factions could again form a breakaway government at war with Dbeibah's administration in Tripoli. However, analysts think that is unlikely for now.

The more immediate risk is that a political crisis could add fuel to local disputes between rival armed groups that have mobilised in western Libya in recent weeks, leading to a new round of fighting inside the capital.

 

[JaDed]

The fall of Irani regime will be the last big player in opposing US, Libya screwed up not going Nuclear like Nkorea, Iran managed the same.. Iran still has more scientific pedigree but extremely hostile neighbours.

below is a history of what stupidity Libya did:

From Tripoli to Tehran: Lessons from Libya in US-Iran nuclear talks

Twenty-one years later, the nuclear disarmament of Libya serves as a model for the United States in current nuclear negotiations with Iran.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[IronShield]

Iran managed to **** off its neighbours even Azerbaijan which is majority Shia is not supporting them.

 

[JaDed]

Iran managed to **** off its neighbours even Azerbaijan which is majority Shia is not supporting them.

Azerbaijan is extremely pro Israel, ideally that should annoy entire Arab region but it only annoyed Iran and Libya, says a lot about Arabs

 

[IronShield]

Azerbaijan is extremely pro Israel, ideally that should annoy entire Arab region but it only annoyed Iran and Libya, says a lot about Arabs

Striking thing is that Iran has a decent percentage of Azeris, but they still supported Armenia during the war in Karabakh which Azerbaijan won with Israel drones and Turkish and Pakistani boots on the ground.