Lindsay Lohan: 'I was asked to remove headscarf and racially profiled at Heathrow Airport'

[Sub-Zero]

Actress Lindsay Lohan has claimed she was asked to remove her headscarf at Heathrow Airport and was "racially profiled" by security staff.

The Mean Girls star spoke of her shock surrounding the incident during an interview with Piers Morgan and Susanna Reid on ITV’s Good Morning Britain on Tuesday.

She explained how she had been “asked to remove her headscarf” by security staff at the airport as she queued for a flight to New York after travelling from Turkey.

Lohan said: “When I was flying to New York recently, I was wearing a headscarf and I got stopped at the airport and racially profiled for the first time in my life at Heathrow Airport.

“She opened my passport and saw ‘Lindsay Lohan’ and started immediately apologising but then said, ‘Please take off your head scarf’.”

The Parent Trap actress explained she removed the item and said: "It was ok."

However, she then went on to share her sympathy with other woman who “don’t feel comfortable” removing their headscarves in public.

She added: “What scared me at that moment was, how would another woman who doesn’t feel comfortable taking off her headscarf feel…that was really interesting to me.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...to-remove-headscarf-at-heathrow-a3471906.html

 

[Adil_94]

if their is an issue with a headscarf then they can be asked to remove the scarf in a private room and have it checked same with turbans too. Though idk what could be hidden in a scarf. I get with face coverings why they need to be removed at airports because of security reasons. But a lot of potential bombers will dry to dress as lowkey as possible so as not to be detected so they will shave their beards wear western clothes.

 

[Mamoon]

Not the first time she has pulled off an attention-seeking move like this, apparently she gets discriminated because of her Islamic profile every week these days.

From a genuine beauty to a druggie to an attention-seeker. She has lived quite a life. Garnering the sympathy votes of the Muslims is a good way of staying in the news.

 

[GenericBrand]

Wait, Lohan converted?

 

[shaz619]

Not the first time she has pulled off an attention-seeking move like this, apparently she gets discriminated because of her Islamic profile every week these days.

From a genuine beauty to a druggie to an attention-seeker. She has lived quite a life. Garnering the sympathy votes of the Muslims is a good way of staying in the news.

Wait, Lohan converted?

No, she's not a muslim.

She's had a tough time, I personally wouldn't abuse her for the problems she's had but what's important is her overcoming those demons and being healthy. She's a celebrity, they are always in the public eye so am not sure how she can be labelled an attention seeker; she has barely pulled a kim k . Nor has she made pessimistic remarks which display an inferior complex

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No, she's not a muslim.

She's had a tough time, I personally wouldn't abuse her for the problems she's had but what's important is her overcoming those demons and being healthy. She's a celebrity, they are always in the public eye so am not sure how she can be labelled an attention seeker; she has barely pulled a kim k . Nor has she made pessimistic remarks which display an inferior complex

True enough, I don't understand why anyone would feel sensitive about this incident. I doubt she's looking for sympathy votes, more likely she's just going against the grain to stand out rather than be seen as one of the sheep following the herd. Good for her, these are difficult times for women who wear the headscarf, when a celebrity raises attention to that it should be appreciated rather than cringeing in fear of the perception of others.

 

[shaz619]

True enough, I don't understand why anyone would feel sensitive about this incident. I doubt she's looking for sympathy votes, more likely she's just going against the grain to stand out rather than be seen as one of the sheep following the herd. Good for her, these are difficult times for women who wear the headscarf, when a celebrity raises attention to that it should be appreciated rather than cringeing in fear of the perception of others.

Good point, they can never really win; damned if you do damned if you don't, likewise when celebs do a bit of charity it is often labelled as an attention seeking ploy. Some people just don't like muslims in general or those who often bring up things such as equality with regards to their beliefs, creed or race and prefer it if they stay quiet because it appeals to their biases. Yeah, she should have spoken of her agreement with Donald Trump's philosophies, maybe such folk wouldn't get so sensitive actually she'd probably get more coverage that way to because it seems to be very popular these days, bigotry.

 

[Mamoon]

This is about the third time in a very short timespan that I've heard her complain about getting discriminated against. It seems like she is looking to get discriminated in order to stay in the news, which is not surprising since her career is over.

 

[Mamoon]

No, she's not a muslim.

She's had a tough time, I personally wouldn't abuse her for the problems she's had but what's important is her overcoming those demons and being healthy. She's a celebrity, they are always in the public eye so am not sure how she can be labelled an attention seeker; she has barely pulled a kim k . Nor has she made pessimistic remarks which display an inferior complex

I know she isn't a Muslim. I actually kind of feel sorry for her because she is suffering from extreme identity crisis these days. She has even changed her accent.

Few weeks back, she was praising the UK in her new fake accent and how they have been more tolerant towards her headscarfs compared to the U.S., so let's see where she goes with all this nonsense now, apart from continuing to fish for discrimination.

 

[Yossarian]

Not the first time she has pulled off an attention-seeking move like this, apparently she gets discriminated because of her Islamic profile every week these days.

From a genuine beauty to a druggie to an attention-seeker. She has lived quite a life. Garnering the sympathy votes of the Muslims is a good way of staying in the news.

Perhaps you didn't quite appreciate this?

However, she then went on to share her sympathy with other woman who “don’t feel comfortable” removing their headscarves in public.

She added: “What scared me at that moment was, how would another woman who doesn’t feel comfortable taking off her headscarf feel…that was really interesting to me.

A case of shooting the messenger instead of taking note of the message?

It's ironic that someone living in a Muslim majority country like Pakistan doesn't appreciate the message she's conveying, that of some women feeling uncomfortable, even violated, when told to remove their headscarves in public.

 

[shaz619]

Perhaps you didn't quite appreciate this?
A case of shooting the messenger instead of taking note of the message?

It's ironic that someone living in a Muslim majority country like Pakistan doesn't appreciate the message she's conveying, that of some women feeling uncomfortable, even violated, when told to remove their headscarves in public.

To be fair, quiet a few amongst the privileged elite of Pak wouldn't care about such women feeling uncomfortable etc and their women do not really wear the scarf as much so the ignorance stems from a lack of understanding for others given their own life choices and that of those around them. Religion for such folk is a hobby as well, not something they take seriously with also explains lack of appreciation for the message Lindsay has conveyed.

 

[shaz619]

I know she isn't a Muslim. I actually kind of feel sorry for her because she is suffering from extreme identity crisis these days. She has even changed her accent.

Few weeks back, she was praising the UK in her new fake accent and how they have been more tolerant towards her headscarfs compared to the U.S., so let's see where she goes with all this nonsense now, apart from continuing to fish for discrimination.

I never really picked up on that, I mean you can't expect her to sound the same as she did in the parent trap. a lot has happened since then, life. Look, not all of our childhood heroes are perfect; yes I loved that movie as well and she was a sweetheart but at the end of the day the woman is a human like you and I.

 

[Mamoon]

Perhaps you didn't quite appreciate this?
A case of shooting the messenger instead of taking note of the message?

It's ironic that someone living in a Muslim majority country like Pakistan doesn't appreciate the message she's conveying, that of some women feeling uncomfortable, even violated, when told to remove their headscarves in public.

As a Muslim living a Muslim-majority country, I'm more concerned about our hypocrisy and how we complain about the intolerance of the West but at the same time, refuse to tolerate a woman walking around in Pakistan wearing a skirt or a bikini (on a beach).

At least in most cases, the people in the West are civilized enough to tell them to remove their headscarves in public, I don't think our people would be that kind in dealing with a woman in bikini. The sexual frustration in our countries is quite high and she will be subjected to some ugly looks and people taking photos and videos if not more.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I know everyone is jumpy about terrorism right now, and with reason, but when I see a woman wearing a headscarf I usually feel sorry for her rather than scared. In a western country most of the locals associate a headscarf as a symbol of female oppression these days. I would feel sorry for nuns as well come to that, even if it is voluntary.

Not for the wearing of the scarf itself, more to do with knowing that the majority will probably look down on her or view her as alien. For that reason I think Lohan raising this issue is doing a valuable service regardless of what others think of her motives. Good for her if it makes people reflect on where our society is going.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Great stuff by Lindsay, she is highlighting an important issue of discrimination which is rising.

 

[IMMY69]

This is about the third time in a very short timespan that I've heard her complain about getting discriminated against. It seems like she is looking to get discriminated in order to stay in the news, which is not surprising since her career is over.

I could say the same thing about another personality who ended up becoming the president of USA

 

[Mamoon]

I could say the same thing about another personality who ended up becoming the president of USA

Yes, you are right about Tangerine Trump. Strange times.

 

[Mamoon]

Great stuff by Lindsay, she is highlighting an important issue of discrimination which is rising.

How would you feel about a woman highlighting how she is not allowed to wear bikini in Pakistan, would you also call that an important example of discrimination.

 

[Mamoon]

I know everyone is jumpy about terrorism right now, and with reason, but when I see a woman wearing a headscarf I usually feel sorry for her rather than scared. In a western country most of the locals associate a headscarf as a symbol of female oppression these days. I would feel sorry for nuns as well come to that, even if it is voluntary.

Not for the wearing of the scarf itself, more to do with knowing that the majority will probably look down on her or view her as alien. For that reason I think Lohan raising this issue is doing a valuable service regardless of what others think of her motives. Good for her if it makes people reflect on where our society is going.

All of this is correct, but the problem is that the shoe is supposed to be on one foot only.

 

[KingKhanWC]

How would you feel about a woman highlighting how she is not allowed to wear bikini in Pakistan, would you also call that an important example of discrimination.

Pakistan has bigger issues atm.

In the western world MILLIONS of women feel targeted for simply wearing a piece of cloth over their head. How many in Pakistan feel the same about the bikini?

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Not the first time she has pulled off an attention-seeking move like this, apparently she gets discriminated because of her Islamic profile every week these days.

From a genuine beauty to a druggie to an attention-seeker. She has lived quite a life. Garnering the sympathy votes of the Muslims is a good way of staying in the news.

I think most Americans are just happy she's not as depressed and intoxicated as she used to be

Sure, if she found Jesus rather than looking in other places she may have become a better role model but hey she won't end up like Whitney Houston hopefully

 

[Yossarian]

As a Muslim living a Muslim-majority country, I'm more concerned about our hypocrisy and how we complain about the intolerance of the West but at the same time, refuse to tolerate a woman walking around in Pakistan wearing a skirt or a bikini (on a beach).

At least in most cases, the people in the West are civilized enough to tell them to remove their headscarves in public, I don't think our people would be that kind in dealing with a woman in bikini. The sexual frustration in our countries is quite high and she will be subjected to some ugly looks and people taking photos and videos if not more.

We live in the West. And discrimination of any kind is something most of will not accept, and thus we are prepared to raise our voice against it. Especially if it affects us and our womenfolk.

Those living in Pakistan have their own views as to what is, and what is not, acceptable in Pakistan and Pakistani society. And what is acceptable in Pakistan is not necessarily so in the West, and vice versa. And that's fair enough.

As for wearing bikinis in a country like Pakistan, that's a very poor analogy. Even a woman, who will go topless on a public beach in the South of France, will feel uncomfortable and violated at being asked to remove her top/blouse in public at Charles de Gaulle airport security check even if she's wearing a bikini underneath! And for some headscarf wearing women, with strong religious beliefs (and you may be surprised to know, not just Muslim women), being asked to remove their headscarves in public is akin to that.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] many women arent given the freedom to make that choice of wearing a bikini if they want to or not. Either fearing being disowned beaten or even killed by family members or be harrassed and even assaulted by someone in the streets if they were out in a bikini or even wearing shorts or a mini skirt. Pakistan is way behind in that aspect of creating a culture of tolerance where one can choose whether to dress in a Headscarf or a mini skirt like you can in most western countries. But there are those who selectively complain about women being harassed for wearing hijab in western countries but stay quiet on women who are oppressed by modesty culture and religious intolerance in places like Pakistan.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] many women arent given the freedom to make that choice of wearing a bikini if they want to or not. Either fearing being disowned beaten or even killed by family members or be harrassed and even assaulted by someone in the streets if they were out in a bikini or even wearing shorts or a mini skirt. Pakistan is way behind in that aspect of creating a culture of tolerance where one can choose whether to dress in a Headscarf or a mini skirt like you can in most western countries. But there are those who selectively complain about women being harassed for wearing hijab in western countries but stay quiet on women who are oppressed by modesty culture and religious intolerance in places like Pakistan.

Adil have you ever travelled to Turkey or Dubai
You might change your opinions afterwards

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=10028]chacha kashmiri[/MENTION] ive been to Dubai yes what is the point you are trying to make ?

 

[chacha kashmiri]

[MENTION=10028]chacha kashmiri[/MENTION] ive been to Dubai yes what is the point you are trying to make ?

The bikini is quite popular in places like Dubai,Turkey,Bali etc
It's not something that's completely foreign in Muslim countries

 

[Yossarian]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] many women arent given the freedom to make that choice of wearing a bikini if they want to or not. Either fearing being disowned beaten or even killed by family members or be harrassed and even assaulted by someone in the streets if they were out in a bikini or even wearing shorts or a mini skirt. Pakistan is way behind in that aspect of creating a culture of tolerance where one can choose whether to dress in a Headscarf or a mini skirt like you can in most western countries. But there are those who selectively complain about women being harassed for wearing hijab in western countries but stay quiet on women who are oppressed by modesty culture and religious intolerance in places like Pakistan.

So the comparison is always between women allowed to wear bikinis in the West and not being allowed to wear bikinis in Pakistan?

Well, in some states in the USA, as well as in some other countries, bestiality is legal. Similarly, incest is legal in some countries. Do you wish to expand your bikini argument further and say that Pakistan should follow suit?

Incidentally, have you ever known of a woman wearing a bikini in public in the Vatican, which is technically a separate country and not even a Muslim country at that?

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] many women arent given the freedom to make that choice of wearing a bikini if they want to or not. Either fearing being disowned beaten or even killed by family members or be harrassed and even assaulted by someone in the streets if they were out in a bikini or even wearing shorts or a mini skirt. Pakistan is way behind in that aspect of creating a culture of tolerance where one can choose whether to dress in a Headscarf or a mini skirt like you can in most western countries. But there are those who selectively complain about women being harassed for wearing hijab in western countries but stay quiet on women who are oppressed by modesty culture and religious intolerance in places like Pakistan.

It depends on how big the issue is. What do you mean by 'many', 5, 100 or 100,000? You cannot always accommodate small numbers into a society. In the UK there are millions of women who cover their heads. How many women in Pakistan want to wear a bikini? I doubt the vast majority who are Muslims would want this freedom and the minorities (Hindu's , Christians) probably don't care much either as it's not really their culture. The bikini is not religious attire but personal , mainly linked to western culture.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] so the whole Muslim world equals the Vatican does it and is all hallowed ground. I havent said start catwalk modelling in Makkah. comparing allowing women to wear a bikini as the same as allowing to have sex with animals as if they are a moral equivalance maybe in your eyes they are both equally as bad but not in mine my point is if you truly believe in liberty and freedom of the individual to wear what they want then it shouldnt be one sided that when you live in the West you want full freedom to wear religious attire like Hijab or Jilbab but then when women want to wear skirts or bikinis in Pakistan they say no they shouldnt be allowed this is not our culture. If anyone holds that view which a lot of people do sadly who want full equality as a minority but then dont want to extend those same rights when in the majority then they are a hypocrite who employs double standards.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Even if there was only 0.1% of the female population that wear Hijab in a country or area they still should have the rights to wear that no matter how small they are in number. Same way the percentage of Women who want to wear a skirt a dress a bikini in Pakistan might not be overwhelming but they deserve the right to exercise that choice.

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Even if there was only 0.1% of the female population that wear Hijab in a country or area they still should have the rights to wear that no matter how small they are in number. Same way the percentage of Women who want to wear a skirt a dress a bikini in Pakistan might not be overwhelming but they deserve the right to exercise that choice.

With the skirt I agree with but the bikini cannot be compared to the hijab as a freedom of choice issue.

I'm not sure about your experience but I have never seen a woman in a bikini in any town centre in England. Women covering their heads whether it's a Muslim woman wearing a hijab or someone wearing a scarf, large hat or any other attire over the head is very common. Bikini's are used on beaches or in swimming pools, there is no reason why a private area can be given to those women who chose to dress this way, as this is the only place for it's use.

If you use the argument anyone should be able to wear any type of clothing then you open up a can of worms. What is 2% of women want to walk around topless, as many do in many areas of the western world, there are beaches which cater for this. Do you then believe Pakistan should also allow this on the streets of Lahore?

 

[Adil_94]

my point on the Bikini was to do with wearing on the beach and swimming pools because it is designed specifically for those areas. i know its not common to wear bikinis in city centres although if you go to any Greek holiday resort in the summer you see it everywhere. Of course there are nudist beaches for those who wish to be nude in public and thats fine. If people wanted to have an area where they could mingle in their birthday suits like a beach in Pakistan id have no issue with that at all. my general point is that tolerance of different forms of dress in all places be it a Skirt or Hijab is what i support. [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

 

[KingKhanWC]

my point on the Bikini was to do with wearing on the beach and swimming pools because it is designed specifically for those areas. i know its not common to wear bikinis in city centres although if you go to any Greek holiday resort in the summer you see it everywhere. Of course there are nudist beaches for those who wish to be nude in public and thats fine. If people wanted to have an area where they could mingle in their birthday suits like a beach in Pakistan id have no issue with that at all. my general point is that tolerance of different forms of dress in all places be it a Skirt or Hijab is what i support. [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

Bikinis worn in town centres are legal in the UK. So to clarify you also want Bikinis to be allowed in town centres in Pakistan?

 

[Yossarian]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] so the whole Muslim world equals the Vatican does it and is all hallowed ground. I havent said start catwalk modelling in Makkah. comparing allowing women to wear a bikini as the same as allowing to have sex with animals as if they are a moral equivalance maybe in your eyes they are both equally as bad but not in mine my point is if you truly believe in liberty and freedom of the individual to wear what they want then it shouldnt be one sided that when you live in the West you want full freedom to wear religious attire like Hijab or Jilbab but then when women want to wear skirts or bikinis in Pakistan they say no they shouldnt be allowed this is not our culture. If anyone holds that view which a lot of people do sadly who want full equality as a minority but then dont want to extend those same rights when in the majority then they are a hypocrite who employs double standards.

What women wear in Pakistan is Pakistan's business. Do you know of many women in Pakistan who wish to go around in public wearing bikinis? Is there a public outcry in Pakistan with demands by women to wear bikinis in public?

As for what happens in the UK, it affects me and my family since I'm a British citizen living in the UK. Hence it's my business. It's completely illogical to say that just because x, y, z happens in the West so it should also be allowed in Pakistan, or vice versa. In fact I couldn't care less what rules Pakistan imposes for those living in Pakistan.

Furthermore, my use of the bestaility and incest anologies as being in similar vein to your use of the bikini comparison is pefectly valid. Why should your personal definitions of liberty and freedom be the same as those of anyone else, whether they live in the West or in Pakistan? Who are you to define it's borders and it's limits?
In fact it could be argued that you are actually contradicting yourself, since you are preaching about liberty and freedom whilst wishing to curtial the liberty and freedoms of other peoples in other nations and countries the option of deciding their own rules and laws. It's called hypocricy.

 

[Yossarian]

my point on the Bikini was to do with wearing on the beach and swimming pools because it is designed specifically for those areas. i know its not common to wear bikinis in city centres although if you go to any Greek holiday resort in the summer you see it everywhere. Of course there are nudist beaches for those who wish to be nude in public and thats fine. If people wanted to have an area where they could mingle in their birthday suits like a beach in Pakistan id have no issue with that at all. my general point is that tolerance of different forms of dress in all places be it a Skirt or Hijab is what i support. [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

Western women (and non-Muslims from other countries) in most Western housing compounds in Saudi Arabia that have swimming pools and leasure facilities wear bikinis. I know this for a fact since I lived in some of them (despite being a Muslim) and used the swimming pools and other leasure facilities with my friends and colleagues (some of whom were women), as well as their family members. I even regularly frequented beach parties on the Red Sea or Persian/Arabian Gulf (with women wearing bikinis), with free flowing drink, hosted and organised by our employers (some of whom were part of Saudi government departments), albeit in secluded spots away from mainstream Saudi society.

You need to go out into the real world for a bit instead of getting all your info from behind a keyboard.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] forget womens rights for a moment look at how Ahmadis are treated in Pakistan. look at women in Iran and Saudi. If a state is actively oppressing a minority and you turn a blind eye to it oh because thats their cultire they just cant treat everyone with fairness and equality then that is nothing but bigotry of low expectations. Surely the standards of human rights equality and justice you expect in the U.K then it would be hypocritical to not want everyone to experience those same level of rights. I am not saying someone should force a country to enact these changes. But every country should aspire to reach those standards so those countries become better places. If you believe only certain countries are entitled to liberty and social freedom then that is double standards. If every country truly adhered to the UN declaration of human rights then i believe the world would be a much better place. When a lot of Pakistanis first came to the U.K a lot of them didnt let girls go to school or later on uni because oh why do girls need an education was the attitude now if that attitude was never challenged then progress couldnt have happened. That progress wasnt done by a gun or a tank but by evolution of thought. I can disagree with the way a place like North Korea Saudi or Iran govts run and their system of governance without wanting to go in and force the British system on them even if i think liberal democracy is the best form of governance states can and should apsire too.

 

[Gilly]

When travelling abroad I get asked to remove my hat when passing through airports, it is due to security issues and not discrimination. Even though women are asked to remove their scarf for identification purposes in air ports they are free to wear them once they leave the airport. Sometimes banks will also require customers to remove any hats, headwear or helmets so that security cameras can be used for identification. Its not discrimination and applies to everyone. Sometimes people look to find discrimination for the sake of complaining.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] i do know about the compounds but these are for privileged westerners not the average Saudi. Can you honestlu argue that the Saudi states treatment of women isnt in need of dire reform. never mind what privileged westerners and their hypocrite elites do who party drink and live hedonistic lifestyles in their own palaces and compounds yet keep their population under the yoke of religious oppression.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] ideally id want women to be allowed to wear one in a Pakistani City without any legal reprecussions yes.

 

[Yossarian]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] i do know about the compounds but these are for privileged westerners not the average Saudi. Can you honestlu argue that the Saudi states treatment of women isnt in need of dire reform. never mind what privileged westerners and their hypocrite elites do who party drink and live hedonistic lifestyles in their own palaces and compounds yet keep their population under the yoke of religious oppression.

But the same 'freedom loving Westerners' (me included) are/were quite happy to enjoy the luxuries if living in these Western compounds. Didn't notice many Saudi women wishing to join in whilst wearing bikinis.

 

[Yossarian]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] forget womens rights for a moment look at how Ahmadis are treated in Pakistan. look at women in Iran and Saudi. If a state is actively oppressing a minority and you turn a blind eye to it oh because thats their cultire they just cant treat everyone with fairness and equality then that is nothing but bigotry of low expectations. Surely the standards of human rights equality and justice you expect in the U.K then it would be hypocritical to not want everyone to experience those same level of rights. I am not saying someone should force a country to enact these changes. But every country should aspire to reach those standards so those countries become better places. If you believe only certain countries are entitled to liberty and social freedom then that is double standards. If every country truly adhered to the UN declaration of human rights then i believe the world would be a much better place. When a lot of Pakistanis first came to the U.K a lot of them didnt let girls go to school or later on uni because oh why do girls need an education was the attitude now if that attitude was never challenged then progress couldnt have happened. That progress wasnt done by a gun or a tank but by evolution of thought. I can disagree with the way a place like North Korea Saudi or Iran govts run and their system of governance without wanting to go in and force the British system on them even if i think liberal democracy is the best form of governance states can and should apsire too.

I've said it before above and I'll say it again. Within certain limits (bestiality and incest should be outside those limits in my opinion, even though many 'civilised' societies in Europe and parts of the USA allow it), every country has, and should have, its own definitions of freedom and liberty. You say countries X, Y and Z should be forced to change its rules and laws. Fine. As long as others (of other nations) are also allowed to force the country where you live to change any of your country's rules and laws they don't like. Otherwise who gives you the right to define the boundaries and parameters of freedom and liberty for everyone else?

 

[marlonbrowndo]

"Hello Lindsay you're looking a little thin, hun
How about a ride to rehab? Get in ..."

Whenever I hear about Lindsay Lohan now it just reminds me of Eminem's second verse in Same Song and Dance.

 

[Madplayer]

The bikini vs headscarf analogy is non sense imo.

One woman is being asked to remove her headscarf in the west because she is being stereotyped as a terrorist/ suspect terrorist. That's humiliating.

Second woman is being asked to NOT wear a bikini in Pakistan because it hurts the local sentiment/culture. All tourists around the globe are always advised to respect the sentiments of locals.

So these are Two completely different reasons.

If the headscarf is against local culture of the west and offends their beliefs/sentiments, it needs to be respected and headscarves should be removed or better yet don't even go there. Although, If you are being stereotyped as a terrorist sympathiser and being subjected to such treatment again and again whenever you travel to the west, it is humiliating.

 

[Gilly]

The bikini vs headscarf analogy is non sense imo.

One woman is being asked to remove her headscarf in the west because she is being stereotyped as a terrorist/ suspect terrorist. That's humiliating.

Everyone wearing a headscarf, hat, cap, helmet or anything covering their head will be asked to remove it for identification purposes in almost all airports. The reason is for security reasons and not limited to any race, religion or belief, it applies to everyone. There is no stereotyping, racism or discrimination.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I've said it before above and I'll say it again. Within certain limits (bestiality and incest should be outside those limits in my opinion, even though many 'civilised' societies in Europe and parts of the USA allow it), every country has, and should have, its own definitions of freedom and liberty. You say countries X, Y and Z should be forced to change its rules and laws. Fine. As long as others (of other nations) are also allowed to force the country where you live to change any of your country's rules and laws they don't like. Otherwise who gives you the right to define the boundaries and parameters of freedom and liberty for everyone else?

True, you can't really legislate for what other cultures find acceptable viewing through our own lens. I still remember the story from a year ago when an Australian couple were surrounded by a mob in a restaurant in India and forced to write a letter of apology because the man had a tattoo of a Hindu goddess on his calf which had enraged the locals who found it offensive.

Not that it should really be relevant here to this story, but seeing as how wearing bikinis in Pakistan has been dragged into this thread, then it probably bears comparison.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Topic has diverted from racial connotations to "whether females in Pakistan should have the right to wear bikini or not".

On topic, if you want to fly, be ready for security checks.

And if removal of Hijab is downgrading for you, don't fly.

Simple as.

Stay at home and pray to Allah to help you fight the infidels.

 

[Madplayer]

Everyone wearing a headscarf, hat, cap, helmet or anything covering their head will be asked to remove it for identification purposes in almost all airports. The reason is for security reasons and not limited to any race, religion or belief, it applies to everyone. There is no stereotyping, racism or discrimination.

I wish what you were saying was completely true. Its not racism or discrimination per say i agree, but it is stereotyping. In majority of cases , A woman wearing a headscarf at airport would be wearing a headscarf in her picture on her documents as well so excuse of "Identification purposes" isn't really a good one. It is for security reasons i agree but it IS stereotyping and looking at all people wearing a certain kind of dress with suspicion.

 

[Tekcirc]

I wish what you were saying was completely true. Its not racism or discrimination per say i agree, but it is stereotyping. In majority of cases , A woman wearing a headscarf at airport would be wearing a headscarf in her picture on her documents as well so excuse of "Identification purposes" isn't really a good one. It is for security reasons i agree but it IS stereotyping and looking at all people wearing a certain kind of dress with suspicion.

Are you allowed to have a passport photos with a head scarf on?

 

[Gilly]

I wish what you were saying was completely true. Its not racism or discrimination per say i agree, but it is stereotyping. In majority of cases , A woman wearing a headscarf at airport would be wearing a headscarf in her picture on her documents as well so excuse of "Identification purposes" isn't really a good one. It is for security reasons i agree but it IS stereotyping and looking at all people wearing a certain kind of dress with suspicion.

Regardless of your passport photo having a scarf on which is controlled by the country issuing the passport, the airport you are in has its own rule that you must remove all head wear for identification. It is not stereotyping because it applies to anyone wearing head wear. I carry quite a bit of electronic gear when travelling and every time I pass through security I will be tested for residue, every single time, I could complain but I know its their to protect me and to make sure I have a safe flight. I know when I get off the plane I will be subjected to extra attention from security and I accept that because they want to make sure that I'm not carrying anything that is dangerous.

 

[Madplayer]

Are you allowed to have a passport photos with a head scarf on?

Yes.

Regardless of your passport photo having a scarf on which is controlled by the country issuing the passport, the airport you are in has its own rule that you must remove all head wear for identification. It is not stereotyping because it applies to anyone wearing head wear. I carry quite a bit of electronic gear when travelling and every time I pass through security I will be tested for residue, every single time, I could complain but I know its their to protect me and to make sure I have a safe flight. I know when I get off the plane I will be subjected to extra attention from security and I accept that because they want to make sure that I'm not carrying anything that is dangerous.

I agree it is all about ensuring security of passengers. If a woman removes a head scarf on being asked, what would the security guys compare her face with for identification? I know we dont make the rules but still.
I get what you are saying but i still feel you are comparing two different things here.

 

[Robert]

I was forced to remove my hat at the airport, for "identification". and because I "might be secreting something under it". Was I racially profiled too?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Topic has diverted from racial connotations to "whether females in Pakistan should have the right to wear bikini or not".

On topic, if you want to fly, be ready for security checks.

And if removal of Hijab is downgrading for you, don't fly.

Simple as.

Stay at home and pray to Allah to help you fight the infidels.

You can still fly and feel targeted or compromised re your religion if you are asked to remove your headscarf as long as you comply with the requests. To assume the woman would prefer to stay at home and pray to Allah to help fight infidels is a preposterous assumption really.

Making assumptions that all women wearing headscarves think this way is just as bad as assuming American security staff are targeting Muslim women because they are racist or stereotyping.

 

[Madplayer]

I was forced to remove my hat at the airport, for "identification". and because I "might be secreting something under it". Was I racially profiled too?

Your passport probably had a picture of you without a hat.

 

[Gilly]

Yes.



I agree it is all about ensuring security of passengers. If a woman removes a head scarf on being asked, what would the security guys compare her face with for identification? I know we dont make the rules but still.
I get what you are saying but i still feel you are comparing two different things here.

No I'm not comparing two different things, firstly security cameras are used to get clear pictures of everyone passing through the airport. Security staff can have photos of wanted criminals that are not passport photos. Security is not just based on passport photos. I feel you have a blinkered view on this matter and you are just looking at it from a single point of view without looking at it over a wide range of issues.

 

[Madplayer]

No I'm not comparing two different things, firstly security cameras are used to get clear pictures of everyone passing through the airport. Security staff can have photos of wanted criminals that are not passport photos. Security is not just based on passport photos. I feel you have a blinkered view on this matter and you are just looking at it from a single point of view without looking at it over a wide range of issues.

I think you are right about me not looking at it from some other angles. I'm sure they can come up with some alternatives like ensuring privacy which would make such procedures less of an embarrassment for some people. They don't have to , but its always good to accomodate people with different beliefs.

 

[Yossarian]

Everyone wearing a headscarf, hat, cap, helmet or anything covering their head will be asked to remove it for identification purposes in almost all airports. The reason is for security reasons and not limited to any race, religion or belief, it applies to everyone. There is no stereotyping, racism or discrimination.

I was forced to remove my hat at the airport, for "identification". and because I "might be secreting something under it". Was I racially profiled too?

My Sikh colleague says he will throw a fit of told to remove his turban in public, even at an airport security check. Although he will remove it if asked to do so in a separate room. As far as I'm aware, Sikhs are not asked to remove their turbans in banks, or when going through security checks. Similarly, nuns and some Orthodox Jews (men and women) are not asked to remove their headgear either. On all three counts, if they are genuinely percieved as being a security threat, they are normally taken to a separate room, away from the public, and asked to do it there.

The point being that it's not simply a case of being asked to remove the headgear if genuinely perceived as being a security threat, but the fact that some sections of society are being profiled and then told to remove the headgear in public.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] . Bestiality isnt common nor is it accepted in European countries its classed as animal abuse it happens in some parts of America even then by a minority same as in some rural parts of Pakistan bestiality happens but it isnt accepted by the mainstream . Liberty has one definition it is the freedom of the individual to choose and i support everyone having the freedom to choose in the same way i can. I can choose living in the U.K what religion i want to follow or if i dont want to follow a religion but in Pakistan in Saudi in plenty of Muslim countries that freedom is not allowed and it should be. Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right. If every country had the attitude western countries do towards freedom of religion then it would be much better. Cultural relativism might sound tolerant but in reality its just allowing bigotry to be perpetuated in third world countries under the guise of tolerating their culture. If everyone had that attitude then there would be no UN and WHO initiatives to end practices like child marriage or FGM or forced marriages people would have just carried on tolerating these inhumane practices for the sake of cultural tolerance and political correctness. Do i think its right that a saudi woman is basically an extension of her fathers property no and has her freedoms curtailed of course not and the Saudis should be challenged on that. Is it ok that saudi lashes it it citizens for speaking out against the govt. That it beheads people who leave their religion no these are all violations of human rights. If people never dissented and criticised Communist regimes to reform and become less authoritarian it would never have collapsed. there are certain values that are superior to others and no one should be ashamed to say that. Liberal democracy is the ideal system to live under that protects the rights of all citizens. Much better than living in an autocracy or a banana republic im sure thats why your parents or grandparents left Pakistan for a better quality of life because they saw the U.K as a much better prospect than Pakistan. I know there are those that would love to see the black flag flying over downing street but that is what we are facing and to protect values of liberty and freedom and equality these views need to be challenged just like Communism was.

 

[Musakhel]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] . Bestiality isnt common nor is it accepted in European countries its classed as animal abuse it happens in some parts of America even then by a minority same as in some rural parts of Pakistan bestiality happens but it isnt accepted by the mainstream . Liberty has one definition it is the freedom of the individual to choose and i support everyone having the freedom to choose in the same way i can. I can choose living in the U.K what religion i want to follow or if i dont want to follow a religion but in Pakistan in Saudi in plenty of Muslim countries that freedom is not allowed and it should be. Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right. If every country had the attitude western countries do towards freedom of religion then it would be much better. Cultural relativism might sound tolerant but in reality its just allowing bigotry to be perpetuated in third world countries under the guise of tolerating their culture. If everyone had that attitude then there would be no UN and WHO initiatives to end practices like child marriage or FGM or forced marriages people would have just carried on tolerating these inhumane practices for the sake of cultural tolerance and political correctness. Do i think its right that a saudi woman is basically an extension of her fathers property no and has her freedoms curtailed of course not and the Saudis should be challenged on that. Is it ok that saudi lashes it it citizens for speaking out against the govt. That it beheads people who leave their religion no these are all violations of human rights. If people never dissented and criticised Communist regimes to reform and become less authoritarian it would never have collapsed. there are certain values that are superior to others and no one should be ashamed to say that. Liberal democracy is the ideal system to live under that protects the rights of all citizens. Much better than living in an autocracy or a banana republic im sure thats why your parents or grandparents left Pakistan for a better quality of life because they saw the U.K as a much better prospect than Pakistan. I know there are those that would love to see the black flag flying over downing street but that is what we are facing and to protect values of liberty and freedom and equality these views need to be challenged just like Communism was.

Liberty should not extend to imposing your value on others, after all, all these moral values are subjective without a higher source of knowledge, in the west wearing what you want is not a problem but in Pakistan wearing a skirt would go against the moral value of most people, but in essence I do agree with you that those who wan't to impose their values on others are wrong and ideally those who wan't islamic values should live in muslim nations and those who want liberal values should live in liberal nations.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kvhGsEsVda4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=142623]Musakhel[/MENTION] The abolishment of slavery was proposed by those who are religious and those who didnt believe in any religion the liberalism of Locke Descartes Kant and Voltaire were men who while being agnostic some higher power rejected organised religion. Atheism isnt purely naturalistic or darwinistic . All moral values are of course man made and developed over time. Religious morality while might have an "anchor" they are also become stagnant if they are interpreted as timeless laws or timeless morality. The same way that Europe stagnated under the Church until the renaissance and the enlightenment and the development of the idea of the fundamental rights of man or the idea of human rights which is of course a 20th century phenomena but the fact that these ideas are a development of man doesnt make them any less virtuos ideals to attempt to live by. If one wants to live under Islamic Law then yes ideally it would be better for them to live somewhere where they can do that. The whole point of what i was trying to say is that there are a lot of hypocrites who when they are in the minority want their religious rights to be protected but dont believe in extending the same rights to minorities in their countried of origin. Case in point people who support state persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan yet cry Islamophobia in the West.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

[MENTION=142623]Musakhel[/MENTION] The abolishment of slavery was proposed by those who are religious and those who didnt believe in any religion the liberalism of Locke Descartes Kant and Voltaire were men who while being agnostic some higher power rejected organised religion. Atheism isnt purely naturalistic or darwinistic . All moral values are of course man made and developed over time. Religious morality while might have an "anchor" they are also become stagnant if they are interpreted as timeless laws or timeless morality. The same way that Europe stagnated under the Church until the renaissance and the enlightenment and the development of the idea of the fundamental rights of man or the idea of human rights which is of course a 20th century phenomena but the fact that these ideas are a development of man doesnt make them any less virtuos ideals to attempt to live by. If one wants to live under Islamic Law then yes ideally it would be better for them to live somewhere where they can do that. The whole point of what i was trying to say is that there are a lot of hypocrites who when they are in the minority want their religious rights to be protected but dont believe in extending the same rights to minorities in their countried of origin. Case in point people who support state persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan yet cry Islamophobia in the West.

Who are these people? I keep hearing this, but I haven't actually come across any in the UK. Do we have any names as a reference point? We should name and shame them so we can campaign against these monsters.

 

[Musakhel]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] . Bestiality isnt common nor is it accepted in European countries its classed as animal abuse it happens in some parts of America even then by a minority same as in some rural parts of Pakistan bestiality happens but it isnt accepted by the mainstream . Liberty has one definition it is the freedom of the individual to choose and i support everyone having the freedom to choose in the same way i can. I can choose living in the U.K what religion i want to follow or if i dont want to follow a religion but in Pakistan in Saudi in plenty of Muslim countries that freedom is not allowed and it should be. Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right. If every country had the attitude western countries do towards freedom of religion then it would be much better. Cultural relativism might sound tolerant but in reality its just allowing bigotry to be perpetuated in third world countries under the guise of tolerating their culture. If everyone had that attitude then there would be no UN and WHO initiatives to end practices like child marriage or FGM or forced marriages people would have just carried on tolerating these inhumane practices for the sake of cultural tolerance and political correctness. Do i think its right that a saudi woman is basically an extension of her fathers property no and has her freedoms curtailed of course not and the Saudis should be challenged on that. Is it ok that saudi lashes it it citizens for speaking out against the govt. That it beheads people who leave their religion no these are all violations of human rights. If people never dissented and criticised Communist regimes to reform and become less authoritarian it would never have collapsed. there are certain values that are superior to others and no one should be ashamed to say that. Liberal democracy is the ideal system to live under that protects the rights of all citizens. Much better than living in an autocracy or a banana republic im sure thats why your parents or grandparents left Pakistan for a better quality of life because they saw the U.K as a much better prospect than Pakistan. I know there are those that would love to see the black flag flying over downing street but that is what we are facing and to protect values of liberty and freedom and equality these views need to be challenged just like Communism was.

what about objective standards if someone chooses to identify as an animal is that wrong? or if someone chooses to identify as a man whilst biologically they are a women is that wrong? do we ignore all other objective standards and just accept subjective feelings as right or wrong?

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=142623]Musakhel[/MENTION] someone choosing to identify as a woman while biologically be a man there is a high chance that this is person could have gender dysphoria and thats why there is a rigorous process undertaken for those who want gender reassignment surgery to check if the person has mental illness undergoing psychological testing to determine if they are eligible for this. I.e before homosexuality was seen as a mental illness but there is a wealth of research done to show that homosexuality isnt an illness but a natural expression of human sexuality and beinh homosexual doesnt impair your mental faculties or ability to live a life just as a hetrosexual would. If someone genuinely thinks they are a dog when they quite clearly arent id think that person would need to undergo psychological testing to find out why they are behaving in this manner.

 

[Musakhel]

[MENTION=142623]Musakhel[/MENTION] someone choosing to identify as a woman while biologically be a man there is a high chance that this is person could have gender dysphoria and thats why there is a rigorous process undertaken for those who want gender reassignment surgery to check if the person has mental illness undergoing psychological testing to determine if they are eligible for this. I.e before homosexuality was seen as a mental illness but there is a wealth of research done to show that homosexuality isnt an illness but a natural expression of human sexuality and beinh homosexual doesnt impair your mental faculties or ability to live a life just as a hetrosexual would. If someone genuinely thinks they are a dog when they quite clearly arent id think that person would need to undergo psychological testing to find out why they are behaving in this manner.

so you would ignore the biological reality that she cant produce sperm and despite any cosmetic change is biologically still a women?

The reason why you accept this is because society sees nothing wrong with this but if majoritarianism is your argument than you can not claim something to be morally wrong if in another society the majority see it as right.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=142623]Musakhel[/MENTION] yeah of course that person wouldnt be biologically a woman there are two biological sexes . Personally im a cultural libertarian so i dont think the state should get involved in peoples lifestyle choices unless they are inflicting harm on others. I.e if someone wants to dress up in a niqab whatever i think about the niqab thats their right to do that and if a man wants to wear a dress and lipstick its their right as an individual to do that. so its not about the majority seeing something to be right or not that influences my decision. majority of society still dont want to legalise marijuana which i personally think shouldnt be criminalised. But of course plenty will disagree with my views.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] Here you go

Bestiality isn't common nor is it accepted in European countries its classed as animal abuse it happens in some parts of America even then by a minority same as in some rural parts of Pakistan bestiality happens but it isn't accepted by the mainstream . Liberty has one definition it is the freedom of the individual to choose and i support everyone having the freedom to choose in the same way i can. I can choose living in the U.K what religion i want to follow or if i don't want to follow a religion but in Pakistan in Saudi in plenty of Muslim countries that freedom is not allowed and it should be.

Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right. If every country had the attitude western countries do towards freedom of religion then it would be much better. Cultural relativism might sound tolerant but in reality its just allowing bigotry to be perpetuated in third world countries under the guise of tolerating their culture.

If everyone had that attitude then there would be no UN and WHO initiatives to end practices like child marriage or FGM or forced marriages people would have just carried on tolerating these inhumane practices for the sake of cultural tolerance and political correctness.

Do i think its right that a saudi woman is basically an extension of her fathers property no and has her freedoms curtailed of course not and the Saudis should be challenged on that. Is it ok that saudi lashes it it citizens for speaking out against the govt. That it beheads people who leave their religion no these are all violations of human rights.

If people never dissented and criticised Communist regimes to reform and become less authoritarian it would never have collapsed. there are certain values that are superior to others and no one should be ashamed to say that. Liberal democracy is the ideal system to live under that protects the rights of all citizens.

Much better than living in an autocracy or a banana republic I am sure that is why your parents or grandparents left Pakistan for a better quality of life because they saw the U.K as a much better prospect than Pakistan. I know there are those that would love to see the black flag flying over downing street but that is what we are facing and to protect values of liberty and freedom and equality these views need to be challenged just like Communism was.

 

[Yossarian]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] Appreciated. Thanks.

Now having read that, the poster seems to be all over the place. Communism, banana republics, UN, WHO initiatives, religion in the UK, in America, in Pakistan, black flags flying over Downing street, Saudi fathers, beheadings ....... heck, never mind the post being broken down into separate paragraphs, it needs a forum section all of it's own.

 

[shaz619]

People overly emphasise this victim mentality nonsense when they're not the ones facing the music, there are instances where people are genuinely mistaken but can you really blame them when we look at the world we live in? Furthermore, the sugar coating of said victim mentality is designed be it intentionally or unintentionally to belittle the instances where people are discriminated for their race, creed , beliefs or way of life in general when we get to this stage people stop caring about these things and they become the norm.

I'd say this sugar coating comes from a lack of understanding and experiences so I do get their narrow minded views to an extent, put yourself in their position where all men and women of the world face no injustice and the poor and lost can overcome their obstacles by simply "working hard and remaining silent in the face of bigotry", after all everything is so hunky dory for them so they can't see the world through the eyes of another.

 

[Mamoon]

There is no doubt that racism exists, and people are discriminated against. That is why I'm happy to live as first-class citizen in Pakistan rather than live as a second-class citizen in the West, where I might be discriminated against but won't always have the power to fightback, because after all, no matter what my accent is and how long I've been living there or whether I was born there or not, I am not one of them and I don't look like them. I might call myself a Brit or an American, but I'm still a desi.

Thankfully, my family stayed back when more than half of my extended family settled in the UK in the 80s and 90s.

However, some people do exploit this situation, and end up 'fishing' for discrimination, so that they can make some noise. That is what Moeen did when he whinged on Twitter without caring to find out why he was stopped in the first place, and that is pretty much what Lohan is doing these days, which is pretty much the only way she can stay in the news these days.

 

[shaz619]

There is no doubt that racism exists, and people are discriminated against. That is why I'm happy to live as first-class citizen in Pakistan rather than live as a second-class citizen in the West, where I might be discriminated against but won't always have the power to fightback, because after all, no matter what my accent is and how long I've been living there or whether I was born there or not, I am not one of them and I don't look like them. I might call myself a Brit or an American, but I'm still a desi.

Thankfully, my family stayed back when more than half of my extended family settled in the UK in the 80s and 90s.

However, some people do exploit this situation, and end up 'fishing' for discrimination, so that they can make some noise. That is what Moeen did when he whinged on Twitter without caring to find out why he was stopped in the first place, and that is pretty much what Lohan is doing these days, which is pretty much the only way she can stay in the news these days.

You spend too much time criticising others rather then caring to find out the root causes in the first place, your mentality is as such that you got to demonize the individual first and then think about the rest later lol Even as a first class citizen in Pak, I doubt you're entirely accepted by the majority; you can apply your same logic to the Brit or American. After all you won't be able to relate to those on the streets and a big portion of Pak is ridden with poverty, so you're a bit of an outcast in your own way. No one likes the rich or the ones who have an obnoxious false sense of esteem. It's also worth mentioning how people discriminate against pathans or punjabi's or city feuds etc you see a lot of it on this forums; so it's not just about ones complexion

 

[Mamoon]

You spend too much time criticising others rather then caring to find out the root causes in the first place, your mentality is as such that you got to demonize the individual first and then think about the rest later lol Even as a first class citizen in Pak, I doubt you're entirely accepted by the majority; you can apply your same logic to the Brit or American. After all you won't be able to relate to those on the streets and a big portion of Pak is ridden with poverty, so you're a bit of an outcast in your own way. No one likes the rich or the ones who have an obnoxious false sense of esteem.

Sorry but I am accepted by the majority and have never been subjected to any racism, and no one criticizes me because I stole their jobs or because I look different than them. No one looks down upon me because I'm not a second-class citizen in their country, but I'm a first-class citizen in my country, and no one call tell me that I should go back to my own country because I'm as much a Pakistani as anyone else, and they know it as well.

The big tragedy is that a lot of these expats consider themselves as Brits or Americans, but that sentiment is not reciprocated and when they are discriminated against, it feels like a proper kick in the guts. It is a terrible feeling to not get fully accepted just because you look different, but it does happen. It is very heartbreaking when you consider yourself a Brit or an American but the society where you live in does not, and will not forget where you come from.

That logic cannot be applied here because I'm not an outcast; there are different social classes in every society, but no social class is a second class citizen and is not going to be mocked or discriminated against because they are one of them. You can say that about the Afghan refugees living in Pakistan, but a Pakistani is a Pakistani, regardless of whether he is poor or rich. That is his identity and it cannot be taken away from him.

The poor people in Pakistan are exploited against and standards of living between the rich and the poor is immense, but that is not down to discrimination based on race, color and religious beliefs.

 

[shaz619]

Sorry but I am accepted by the majority and have never been subjected to any racism, and no one criticizes me because I stole their jobs or because I look different than them. No one looks down upon me because I'm not a second-class citizen in their country, but I'm a first-class citizen in my country, and no one call tell me that I should go back to my own country because I'm as much a Pakistani as anyone else, and they know it as well.

The big tragedy is that a lot of these expats consider themselves as Brits or Americans, but that sentiment is not reciprocated and when they are discriminated against, it feels like a proper kick in the guts. It is a terrible feeling to not get fully accepted just because you look different, but it does happen. It is very heartbreaking when you consider yourself a Brit or an American but the society where you live in does not, and will not forget where you come from.

That logic cannot be applied here because I'm not an outcast; there are different social classes in every society, but no social class is a second class citizen and is not going to be mocked or discriminated against because they are one of them. You can say that about the Afghan refugees living in Pakistan, but a Pakistani is a Pakistani, regardless of whether he is poor or rich. That is his identity and it cannot be taken away from him.

The poor people in Pakistan are exploited against and standards of living between the rich and the poor is immense, but that is not down to discrimination based on race, color and religious beliefs.

Well am not so sure about that one, being in such an esteemed position you can't really get a general consensus with regards to how much you are accepted by your people. Well someone like you may have stolen anothers job through rishwat/influence despite another being more qualified, also you're a pathan right? Their origins are native to afghanistan and not very popular in pakistan so there is discrimination there as well. A pakistani is not a pakistani or there would be a bit more tolerance towards minorities including shia, ahmadi and christians. Brits on the otherhand of all faiths/creeds are still able to pray in a mosque etc without worrying about some nutjob blowing their place of worship up

 

[Mamoon]

Well am not so sure about that one, being in such an esteemed position you can't really get a general consensus with regards to how much you are accepted by your people. Well someone like you may have stolen anothers job through rishwat/influence despite another being more qualified, also you're a pathan right? Their origins are native to afghanistan and not very popular in pakistan so there is discrimination there as well. A pakistani is not a pakistani or there would be a bit more tolerance towards minorities including shia, ahmadi and christians. Brits on the otherhand of all faiths/creeds are still able to pray in a mosque etc without worrying about some nutjob blowing their place of worship up

Of course there is corruption in Pakistan as well as religious/racial/ethnic discrimination, but I was responding to your point where you said that I might have been considered as an outcast by certain sections of the society and might not have been accepted by some. No, that does not happen, and that is the privilege one enjoys when he lives as a first-class citizen in his own country, instead of living as a second-class citizen as an expat.

This is not just for me but for everyone else as well. No one is going to tell you that you don't belong here and you should go back to your own country.

Yes you will suffer for other reasons such as corruption, religious discrimination etc., but there is no comparison between life as a first-class citizen in Pakistan and life as a brown angraiz in the West. Obviously, there are other perks of living in the West such as a superior standard of living, but no matter what you do and what status you have there, you will never be fully accepted and will never be one of them. Given the pros and cons of both, I'm glad that my family stayed back.

As far as the discrimination against Pathans are concerned, let me clarify that as well. There are two types of Pathans: the majority who consider themselves as Pakistanis and do not take any excessive pride in their ethnicity, and the minority who believe that Pathans should have a separate homeland. These people are mostly Afghan sympathizers and are criticized not only by people of other ethnicities, but also by the majority Pathans.

Pathans are there in every city of Pakistan and they are not discriminated against. I spend a lot of time in Lahore and I have never been discriminated against.

 

[shaz619]

Of course there is corruption in Pakistan as well as religious/racial/ethnic discrimination, but I was responding to your point where you said that I might have been considered as an outcast by certain sections of the society and might not have been accepted by some. No, that does not happen, and that is the privilege one enjoys when he lives as a first-class citizen in his own country, instead of living as a second-class citizen as an expat.

This is not just for me but for everyone else as well. No one is going to tell you that you don't belong here and you should go back to your own country.

Yes you will suffer for other reasons such as corruption, religious discrimination etc., but there is no comparison between life as a first-class citizen in Pakistan and life as a brown angraiz in the West. Obviously, there are other perks of living in the West such as a superior standard of living, but no matter what you do and what status you have there, you will never be fully accepted and will never be one of them. Given the pros and cons of both, I'm glad that my family stayed back.

As far as the discrimination against Pathans are concerned, let me clarify that as well. There are two types of Pathans: the majority who consider themselves as Pakistanis and do not take any excessive pride in their ethnicity, and the minority who believe that Pathans should have a separate homeland. These people are mostly Afghan sympathizers and are criticized not only by people of other ethnicities, but also by the majority Pathans.

Pathans are there in every city of Pakistan and they are not discriminated against. I spend a lot of time in Lahore and I have never been discriminated against.

Pathans are generally considered outcasts, that's the general consensus; you're one of the rich ones who is generally treated better due to your standing as a first class citizen. So I don't expect you in particular to have experienced much discrimination but rest assured I can confirm that many people do not like you and probably want you to go back to afghanistan; there are folk here who are 100% behind a full on offensive against your tribe regardless off collateral damage, what does that say about how they see you?

This never fully accepted concept is particularly interesting from your end especially since you've emphasised the whole "victim mentality" angle, so you have an understanding for the fact that there is obvious discrimination but the majority are demonized for speaking out against the bigotry and you'd play down most of their grievances.

There are issues no doubt but the UK is generally the most tolerant in the world on every level when it comes to your race and beliefs; very very accepting I'd say when you consider things like being allowed to pray without being bombed and equal opportunity for all, sure there is discrimination but as a whole the country got the right idea. You do get a couple of confused coconuts I must say and folk with an identity crisis, you then get the idiots who claim job seekers allowance and wave the Pakistan flag outside the Job Centre, fact is Pakistani's don't give a damn about them nor would they be accepting of them besides were they to move there, I guess they get a bit accepting at the airports so long you have a couple of dollars; so long you have money in Pakistan you're all good.

 

[Yossarian]

Of course there is corruption in Pakistan as well as religious/racial/ethnic discrimination, but I was responding to your point where you said that I might have been considered as an outcast by certain sections of the society and might not have been accepted by some. No, that does not happen, and that is the privilege one enjoys when he lives as a first-class citizen in his own country, instead of living as a second-class citizen as an expat.

This is not just for me but for everyone else as well. No one is going to tell you that you don't belong here and you should go back to your own country.

Yes you will suffer for other reasons such as corruption, religious discrimination etc., but there is no comparison between life as a first-class citizen in Pakistan and life as a brown angraiz in the West. Obviously, there are other perks of living in the West such as a superior standard of living, but no matter what you do and what status you have there, you will never be fully accepted and will never be one of them. Given the pros and cons of both, I'm glad that my family stayed back.

As far as the discrimination against Pathans are concerned, let me clarify that as well. There are two types of Pathans: the majority who consider themselves as Pakistanis and do not take any excessive pride in their ethnicity, and the minority who believe that Pathans should have a separate homeland. These people are mostly Afghan sympathizers and are criticized not only by people of other ethnicities, but also by the majority Pathans.

Pathans are there in every city of Pakistan and they are not discriminated against. I spend a lot of time in Lahore and I have never been discriminated against.

As a 'brown angraiz' I don't mind the odd nutjob not accepting me as a UK citizen if it means that, on balance, myself, my family and friends are much safer living in the UK than if they were living in Pakistan. Whether that be due to a lesser chance of being blown up by terrorists, not fearing being held up at gun point whilst driving somewhere away from the mainstream because someone has taken a fancy to my car, or a lesser chance of a female family member being molested if she's walking home alone late in the evening.

Of course such incidences also occur in the UK just as in Pakistan - but on balance, they are far reduced in the UK versus those in Pakistan. Furthermore, when they do occur, there is a much higher chance of the perpetrators being caught and sentenced, instead of being able to bribe their way out as is quite often the case in Pakistan.

I guess it's a question of priorities. And everyone has different priorities. Mine are safety for myself, my family and friends, even if it means the odd incidences of racist abuse and discrimination here and there.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

If you can avoid the psychos in the West and ignore their opinions (they usually don't treat you as first class citizen) , the qualify of life is much likely to reap you dividends in West compared to Pakistan.

I feel its unfortunate but harsh truth.

In Pakistan you are usually treated as a first class citizen but qualify of life has to be compromised.

I am afraid if people try to justify living in Pakistan based on first class status it's pretty pathetic, because Western countries give more rights than even some Muslim countries like Dubai who treat you as lower class bottom society peasant, and less said about quality of life in Pakistan the better.

You can definitely make a choice to stay in Pakistan and enjoy it, but to justify it on the basis of how you are treated is pathetic.

No two ways about it.

 

[shaz619]

As a 'brown angraiz' I don't mind the odd nutjob not accepting me as a UK citizen if it means that, on balance, myself, my family and friends are much safer living in the UK than if they were living in Pakistan. Whether that be due to a lesser chance of being blown up by terrorists, not fearing being held up at gun point whilst driving somewhere away from the mainstream because someone has taken a fancy to my car, or a lesser chance of a female family member being molested if she's walking home alone late in the evening.

Of course such incidences also occur in the UK just as in Pakistan - but on balance, they are far reduced in the UK versus those in Pakistan. Furthermore, when they do occur, there is a much higher chance of the perpetrators being caught and sentenced, instead of being able to bribe their way out as is quite often the case in Pakistan.

I guess it's a question of priorities. And everyone has different priorities. Mine are safety for myself, my family and friends, even if it means the odd incidences of racist abuse and discrimination here and there.

Just to add to your point "but on balance, they are far reduced in the UK versus those in Pakistan" there is law and order which is respected is often respected, not sure I can say the same about Pak.

 

[shaz619]

If you can avoid the psychos in the West and ignore their opinions (they usually don't treat you as first class citizen) , the qualify of life is much likely to reap you dividends in West compared to Pakistan.

I feel its unfortunate but harsh truth.

In Pakistan you are usually treated as a first class citizen but qualify of life has to be compromised.

I am afraid if people try to justify living in Pakistan based on first class status it's pretty pathetic, because Western countries give more rights than even some Muslim countries like Dubai who treat you as lower class bottom society peasant, and less said about quality of life in Pakistan the better.

You can definitely make a choice to stay in Pakistan and enjoy it, but to justify it on the basis of how you are treated is pathetic.

No two ways about it.

There is a third way about it if you have loads of money, then one can justify you living in pak on that basis; maybe you won't neccesarily be treated adequately but money is treated very very well