"Moeen Ali has got to accept he is the number one spinner in England's Test team" : Michael Vaughan

[MenInG]

"Moeen Ali has got to accept he is the number one spinner in England's Test team" : Michael Vaughan

Michael Vaughan

Ex-England captain on BBC Test Match Special

Moeen Ali back in the team - it's seems to be working this culture of dropping and recalling players. Maybe they all need dropping!

But Moeen has got to accept he is the number one spinner in England's Test team. I don't want to hear him say he's the number two anymore.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/live/cricket/43877866

 

[Stewie]

Who does he believe he is number 2 to anyway? Adil Rashid?

 

[MenInG]

Who does he believe he is number 2 to anyway? Adil Rashid?

Think he was referring to Moeen's own issue with confidence.

 

[Big Mac]

Think he was referring to Moeen's own issue with confidence.

Moeen knows he's the number one spinner. Moeen knew, when he woke up this morning, that he was going to be the man to bowl England to victory today.

The only reason people keep bringing up this number 1/number 2 nonsense is because their minds are incapable of comprehending that not everybody is like Shane Warne or Ian Botham who are all showy and full of bluster.

Being self-deprecating doesn't mean you have no confidence but people try and be armchair psychoanalysts.

 

[Stewie]

All I know is the way they keep changing Moin’s role in the team, from top order to middle order to all of a sudden a bowling all rounder batting at 8 and then now maybe playing him primarily just as a bowler, then dropping him at the drop of a hat just like that.. do yonot have any idea what that does to a player?

I bet Swann would have never faced that problem if he hit a bad patch, he won’t find himself on the sidelines like Moin does from time to time.

It’s not Moin that needs convincing... it’s the England thInk tank.. the need to accept that Moin is the best they have.. PERIOD!

 

[Bilal7]

Think he was referring to Moeen's own issue with confidence.

You can't be an international cricketer and have issues with confidence. He is simply a humble man and won't ever admit that he's the best spinner England have got. Vaughan has always been bitter about him (and Rashid). Now that Moeen is back to winning matches, he's criticizing his personality.

 

[Bewal Express]

Bowled beautifully in the match and out bowled the great Ashwin.

 

[Bewal Express]

You can't be an international cricketer and have issues with confidence. He is simply a humble man and won't ever admit that he's the best spinner England have got. Vaughan has always been bitter about him (and Rashid). Now that Moeen is back to winning matches, he's criticizing his personality.

I am not reading his comments the same way.

 

[IMMY69]

All I know is the way they keep changing Moin’s role in the team, from top order to middle order to all of a sudden a bowling all rounder batting at 8 and then now maybe playing him primarily just as a bowler, then dropping him at the drop of a hat just like that.. do yonot have any idea what that does to a player?

I bet Swann would have never faced that problem if he hit a bad patch, he won’t find himself on the sidelines like Moin does from time to time.

It’s not Moin that needs convincing... it’s the England thInk tank.. the need to accept that Moin is the best they have.. PERIOD!

Well said!

 

[Bewal Express]

All I know is the way they keep changing Moin’s role in the team, from top order to middle order to all of a sudden a bowling all rounder batting at 8 and then now maybe playing him primarily just as a bowler, then dropping him at the drop of a hat just like that.. do yonot have any idea what that does to a player?

I bet Swann would have never faced that problem if he hit a bad patch, he won’t find himself on the sidelines like Moin does from time to time.

It’s not Moin that needs convincing... it’s the England thInk tank.. the need to accept that Moin is the best they have.. PERIOD!

He is not a good outside England, that is just fact. It may well be the ball, and the same goes Woakes and to a lesser extent Broad and Anderson. As a whole all of them are poorer outside with Ali the poorest along with Woakes. It may have something to do with l the good home food in Bham

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Watching Moeen Ali's post-match interview with Mike Atherton - what a humble guy Moeen Ali is and a fantastic role-model for British Asians <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ENGvIND?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ENGvIND</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1036296769594908672?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 2, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Stewie]

He is not a good outside England, that is just fact. It may well be the ball, and the same goes Woakes and to a lesser extent Broad and Anderson. As a whole all of them are poorer outside with Ali the poorest along with Woakes. It may have something to do with l the good home food in Bham

I don’t know about that.. what spinner would peform Better in eng and worse outside?

England is known for being bad for spinners. I would imagine moeen’s performance outside as a bowler is a statistical aberration. I thInk he has what it takes to be one of the top spinners in terms of ablility. England just need to stick with him.. they do bounce him around like nobody’s business and that doesn’t do your confidence any good

 

[Zaz]

Its england that have got to accept that hes the best theyve got

Stop messing him about and back him until someone better comes along

 

[Major]

Moeen Ali is a humble guy. Just like how Jos butler is soft spoken

Stupid stuff from Vaughn as usual

 

[Bewal Express]

I don’t know about that.. what spinner would peform Better in eng and worse outside?

England is known for being bad for spinners. I would imagine moeen’s performance outside as a bowler is a statistical aberration. I thInk he has what it takes to be one of the top spinners in terms of ablility. England just need to stick with him.. they do bounce him around like nobody’s business and that doesn’t do your confidence any good

I agree that they dont have anyone better but he did play in the Ashes and was poor and he wasnt messed around and he played in NZ and he was also poor.

 

[Last Monetarist]

People going overboard about Vaughan's comments as usual. He's not criticising Moeen at all here, but merely asserting that he should have no doubt about his standing in the team. I read it as Vaughan stating that despite all the troubles away from home, Moeen is the best spinner in England.

 

[Hasan123]

He has a lot to prove in Asian conditions. Let's see how he does in Sri Lanka in the winter.

 

[Stewie]

People going overboard about Vaughan's comments as usual. He's not criticising Moeen at all here, but merely asserting that he should have no doubt about his standing in the team. I read it as Vaughan stating that despite all the troubles away from home, Moeen is the best spinner in England.

I don’t know about the rest but I perfectly understood that Vaughan’s comments are meant to be encouraging for Moeen and they are. But my point is that the England thInk tank themselves don’t put much stock in him even if he is confident he can get the job done. You need to just look at the way his playing role within the team keeps changing and how they don’t hesitate to drop him at the first sign of bad form/performance.

Seems to me till now england selectors/captain themselves were caught in two minds whether he is good enough to be in the team

 

[Robert]

You can't be an international cricketer and have issues with confidence. He is simply a humble man and won't ever admit that he's the best spinner England have got. Vaughan has always been bitter about him (and Rashid). Now that Moeen is back to winning matches, he's criticizing his personality.

That’s not my reading of Vaughan’s comments at all.

Of course internationals can lose confidence. Boycott lost three prime years of his England career because he thought he couldn’t play any more. Richard Hadlee suffered a nervous breakdown. Gooch exempted himself against Pakistan in 1987 because he thought they would pick a left-armer and get him out.

 

[Savak]

Moen Ali has a real breath taking bowling action. His bowling action is the classic off spinner bowling action which every off spin bowling coaches should aim to copy for pupils

 

[topspin]

I think Vaughan's comments are just reflection of his ongoing spat with Rashid, nothing more.

 

[wrongun]

Did no-one in this thread read Moeen himself and say he thinks he plays best when selected to bat #7 & play as the second spinner? Recent comments from that man himself.

Vaughan is pointing out that is no attitude to have if you want an international career. At some point Mo needs to man up and accept that to play Test cricket he needs to take responsibility for scoring the team match changing runs or taking enough wickets often enough to be a real bowler. You can't have a meaningful career in England asking to be picked as the second spinner and batting down as a lower order specialist.

 

[Last Monetarist]

I don’t know about the rest but I perfectly understood that Vaughan’s comments are meant to be encouraging for Moeen and they are. But my point is that the England thInk tank themselves don’t put much stock in him even if he is confident he can get the job done. You need to just look at the way his playing role within the team keeps changing and how they don’t hesitate to drop him at the first sign of bad form/performance.

Seems to me till now england selectors/captain themselves were caught in two minds whether he is good enough to be in the team

Oh absolutely. England's selection policies are completely muddled. They were immensely fortunate to win this series due to India's incompetence with the bat, apart from the captain.

 

[Robert]

Oh absolutely. England's selection policies are completely muddled. They were immensely fortunate to win this series due to India's incompetence with the bat, apart from the captain.

I don’t see any fortune. They have been better in more crucial situations than India overall.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

He is the best England have, which is a shame. They really need to find a a good spinner. Moeen is pretty decent but nothing special

 

[Pakhs]

They shouldnt drop him from tests in England based on his performance away which they did this time. He is definitely a really good all-rounder at home.

 

[Zahid87]

I think the problem with Moeen, so to speak, is that people have not accepted him for what he is.

Nasser Hussain touched on this yesterday when he said that Moeen is a very good spinner, but in home conditions. Sounds wrong, but there is some sense there.

Moeen developed as a useful part timer, that was subsequently encouraged to develop what was working for him, in order to do a job for England who were struggling after Swann's retirement.

People got carried away by his achievements at home, and then were critical as to why he couldn't repeat the same in India or Australia. But they forget that he has never worked on being a full time spinner, who is supposed to take wickets everywhere. He has also consistently played his bowling down himself, I guess as a method to try and manage people's expectations and perceptions of him.

So for now, back Moeen in England. He has proven several times he is very effective here. But don't give him the spinner's burden overseas. He doesn't want it.

 

[Slim]

Michael Vaughan with his another praise the rising sun "analytical" comment. This guy has no insight of his own. Always reactionary.

Anyway, Moeen is the best spinner in the English side and Adil does seem like a waste of space atm. Would prefer Woakes playing over Adil in the final match.

 

[MRSN]

Lol it's amazing how bits and pieces cricketers like Moeen become no.1 spinner in England team because their investment in Rashid has proven to be useless. England always used to have some quality spinner in their team.

 

[MRSN]

Also Indian team should be ashamed to gift most of their wickets to a part timer. I know Pakistan too gifted some wickets to a rookie spinner but you expect Indian batsmen to be better against spinners.

 

[Slog]

You can't be an international cricketer and have issues with confidence. He is simply a humble man and won't ever admit that he's the best spinner England have got. Vaughan has always been bitter about him (and Rashid). Now that Moeen is back to winning matches, he's criticizing his personality.

victim mentality at its finest... ad obv a dose of racism thrown in

 

[Slog]

I think the problem with Moeen, so to speak, is that people have not accepted him for what he is.

Nasser Hussain touched on this yesterday when he said that Moeen is a very good spinner, but in home conditions. Sounds wrong, but there is some sense there.

Moeen developed as a useful part timer, that was subsequently encouraged to develop what was working for him, in order to do a job for England who were struggling after Swann's retirement.

People got carried away by his achievements at home, and then were critical as to why he couldn't repeat the same in India or Australia. But they forget that he has never worked on being a full time spinner, who is supposed to take wickets everywhere. He has also consistently played his bowling down himself, I guess as a method to try and manage people's expectations and perceptions of him.

So for now, back Moeen in England. He has proven several times he is very effective here. But don't give him the spinner's burden overseas. He doesn't want it.

That is not a sustainable strategy

 

[Stewie]

I don’t see any fortune. They have been better in more crucial situations than India overall.

I think what LM is trying to say is that there was no clearcut strategy in player selections and roles but England obviously played better and won due fo certain clutch moment performances by england players and certain failures on the indian side. To give you an example, i bet they were not relying on woakes’s hundred to help them get a winning total and they were probbly also not relying on late order runs from curran, why else would they drop him the test before?

With certain selections, it seemed england just rolled the dice, as to which slection to go with when it came to woakes, moeen, rashid and curran.. very haphazard..

 

[Robert]

I think what LM is trying to say is that there was no clearcut strategy in player selections and roles but England obviously played better and won due fo certain clutch moment performances by england players and certain failures on the indian side. To give you an example, i bet they were not relying on woakes’s hundred to help them get a winning total and they were probbly also not relying on late order runs from curran, why else would they drop him the test before?

With certain selections, it seemed england just rolled the dice, as to which slection to go with when it came to woakes, moeen, rashid and curran.. very haphazard..

I think the only haphazard selection was dropping Curran for a test. Woakes is one of the five best seamers available. Moeen was picked after hitting 200 and taking wickets against Yorks. Rashid was identified as the key spinner at the start of the test series - though Root has not bowled him due to the natural English distrust of leggies in pressure situations.

 

[the_outsider]

I don’t know about that.. what spinner would peform Better in eng and worse outside?

England is known for being bad for spinners. I would imagine moeen’s performance outside as a bowler is a statistical aberration. I thInk he has what it takes to be one of the top spinners in terms of ablility. England just need to stick with him.. they do bounce him around like nobody’s business and that doesn’t do your confidence any good

Moeen Ali's case is a very curious one.

I really like the bloke but his numbers are absurd.

His away record is certainly not an anomaly because he has played 19 away games. That's a large enough sample size.

He averages under 32 with the ball in England. But outside England it goes up to 53!

Even in Asia his average is very poor - 43.

I can't make head or tail of his numbers.