Mohammad Rizwan's reluctance to stand up to the stumps for Mohammad Abbas

[Usman]

The commentators having been saying what I have been thinking all series - Abbas averages 18 when the batsmen stay in their crease but 132 when they bat outside it. Why does Rizwan refuse to stand up to the stumps?

This is just so obvious.

Rizwan did it in England. It makes me think that he doesn't like doing it and unlike in England, he's the captain now and can't be forced to do it.

I think this it is totally inexcusable and we need an explanation.

 

[Down2Earth]

Conditions play a part. Will be very difficult to stand up to the stumps with these conditions. Rather have a edge caught than missed.

 

[ElRaja]

i was thinking the same, then i saw haris sohail at first slip and thought yeah, that probably explains it.

 

[Usman]

Conditions play a part. Will be very difficult to stand up to the stumps with these conditions. Rather have a edge caught than missed.

You're not going to get an edge if they negate all swing and seam by batting half way down the track.

And any edge that does come will fall short because the keeper and slips are so deep for a 125KPH bowler like Abbas. This is the story of EVERY innings and you have to wonder what the likes of Misbah are actually doing. These are just really obvious things and you don't even need Misbah's MBA to notice them.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

He obviously noticed something when he was batting out there
It's the last game of the tour and the captain is as desperate as all of us to get a draw

 

[UzmanBeast]

Conditions play a part. Will be very difficult to stand up to the stumps with these conditions. Rather have a edge caught than missed.

The edge wont carry either way, so Rizwan has to stand up near the stumps. There's no swing on offer.

 

[Caved12]

I think these are the tactics you use when the ball is old and your bowlers are unable to get any wickets. In these conditions with the new ball, I highly doubt if any captain would ask his keeper to come up to the stumps to try something different. May be a bit later

 

[marlonbrowndo]

It’s insulting for a keeper to stand up to a new ball bowler on these surfaces. What has our team come to

 

[Usman]

I think these are the tactics you use when the ball is old and your bowlers are unable to get any wickets. In these conditions with the new ball, I highly doubt if any captain would ask his keeper to come up to the stumps to try something different. May be a bit later

It’s insulting for a keeper to stand up to a new ball bowler on these surfaces. What has our team come to

It is not insulting, nor is it a tactic to use when the ball is old. By that time the batsmen will be well set and the game will have already drifted away from you.

In England, Rizwaan did this from the start, as soon as batsmen stepped out of their crease. As a result, Abbas was successful.

Pakistan have missed a massive trick on this tour.

 

[giri26]

This is ridiculous, just 15 overs with the new ball and your primary new ball bowler wants the keeper to stand at the stumps? The bowling has already looks innocuous. Pakistan needs to get few wickets early if they want to put pressure on the NZ batting. If they allow a 100+ first wicket stand, the lead will evaporate sooner than you think.

 

[shariqnoor]

It's not that easy to come up to the stumps. This is not UAE where the ball slows up after pitching. Here the ball retains its pace after pitching. Also there has been some amount of lateral movement. How can you expect Rizwan to come up to the stumps to a new ball that is still seaming a bit.

 

[Slog]

He did that in England and wasn’t much use.

The Aussie were right. This is the worst bowling attack that has gone down under

 

[chacha kashmiri]

The balls not doing much, the boys are just looking to bowl the right lines.

 

[Caved12]

It is not insulting, nor is it a tactic to use when the ball is old. By that time the batsmen will be well set and the game will have already drifted away from you.

In England, Rizwaan did this from the start, as soon as batsmen stepped out of their crease. As a result, Abbas was successful.

Pakistan have missed a massive trick on this tour.

Then how come we rarely see such tactics being used by other teams in these condictions. Sorry to say, when you suggest something like this, you are confirming that we have a pathetic bowling attack. This is how I see this

 

[Usman]

Then how come we rarely see such tactics being used by other teams in these condictions. Sorry to say, when you suggest something like this, you are confirming that we have a pathetic bowling attack. This is how I see this

Because Abbas is very slow. If you bowl 140KPH then fair enough, the keeper cannot stand up. But if you bowl 120KPH then it's a different story.

Just look at the stats. Abbas averages 18 when the batsmen stays in his crease. He averages 132 when the batsmen stands out. I mean what other justification do you need?

 

[Caved12]

Because Abbas is very slow. If you bowl 140KPH then fair enough, the keeper cannot stand up. But if you bowl 120KPH then it's a different story.

Just look at the stats. Abbas averages 18 when the batsmen stays in his crease. He averages 132 when the batsmen stands out. I mean what other justification do you need?

As an attack bowler, If you bowl 120KPH, then you have no business playing cricket at an international level. The rest is all nonsense, sorry!

 

[Usman]

As an attack bowler, If you bowl 120KPH, then you have no business playing cricket at an international level. The rest is all nonsense, sorry!

Except that Abbas has been very successful for us, much more so than anyone else. And that's because he's extremely accurate.

Too many people here don't want Rizwan to stand up to the stumps because it hurts their ego as a nation with a proud fast bowling history. However we have to be practical here and do what works. Not sit back and let the game run away, thinking we won't try x or y because we don't like the thought of it.

 

[Savak]

Someone needs to take the team management and the captain who is also the keeper to task for this. Do the coaches and the players even properly assess things after the end of the days play, every choocha and bacha can see that Abbass is being neutralized due to batsmen standing outside the crease to Abbas but no, our coaches and players will continue to do the same thing again and again

 

[Savak]

It's not that easy to come up to the stumps. This is not UAE where the ball slows up after pitching. Here the ball retains its pace after pitching. Also there has been some amount of lateral movement. How can you expect Rizwan to come up to the stumps to a new ball that is still seaming a bit.

Simple, man up and do it for the team

 

[Abid Z]

Except that Abbas has been very successful for us, much more so than anyone else. And that's because he's extremely accurate.

Too many people here don't want Rizwan to stand up to the stumps because it hurts their ego as a nation with a proud fast bowling history. However we have to be practical here and do what works. Not sit back and let the game run away, thinking we won't try x or y because we don't like the thought of it.

This is not true. Too many of our fans unlike you are aware what an awkward bounce can do to the eye of a wicket keeper. Ask Mark Boucher. This is not the type of wicket to stand up to. Nobody would want a wicket more than abbas and rizwan but I guess they know best when it’s time to stand up. We have seen abbas bowling a bit quicker today ..around 125kph. He has also been trying the bouncer but got pulled by nz twice. I guess Abbas will come up with his own variations to conjure up a wicket. But faheem is already showing that rather than relying on rizwan coming up,adding a few rates of pace and bowling at 135kph can be mighty effective.

 

[Savak]

This is not true. Too many of our fans unlike you are aware what an awkward bounce can do to the eye of a wicket keeper. Ask Mark Boucher. This is not the type of wicket to stand up to. Nobody would want a wicket more than abbas and rizwan but I guess they know best when it’s time to stand up. We have seen abbas bowling a bit quicker today ..around 125kph. He has also been trying the bouncer but got pulled by nz twice. I guess Abbas will come up with his own variations to conjure up a wicket. But faheem is already showing that rather than relying on rizwan coming up,adding a few rates of pace and bowling at 135kph can be mighty effective.

Boucher was not wearing a helmet when he suffered that eye injury. We are asking for Rizwan to wear a helmet and go stand up to the stumps to prevent the NZ team from batting outside the crease to neutralize Abbas.

South Africa used to do the same for Philander and Pollock and Australia has done it for McGrath and Gillespie at times. There is no shame in it

 

[Usman]

This is not true. Too many of our fans unlike you are aware what an awkward bounce can do to the eye of a wicket keeper. Ask Mark Boucher. This is not the type of wicket to stand up to. Nobody would want a wicket more than abbas and rizwan but I guess they know best when it’s time to stand up. We have seen abbas bowling a bit quicker today ..around 125kph. He has also been trying the bouncer but got pulled by nz twice. I guess Abbas will come up with his own variations to conjure up a wicket. But faheem is already showing that rather than relying on rizwan coming up,adding a few rates of pace and bowling at 135kph can be mighty effective.

Finally Rizwan stands up to the stumps. At 177-3, you have to question why it's taken so long.

Listen to what Brendon McCullum is saying right now - an international keeper who is praising this decision. Sounds like I am not the one who is "unaware" of how this game should be played.

And look at what the commentators are saying about how this should have been done much earlier.

 

[Runner Up]

Not following the match but read somewhere that he dropped a catch today?

 

[sharmaji]

He did, quite an easy one, actually.

Not following the match but read somewhere that he dropped a catch today?

 

[sharmaji]

I agree. He needs to bowl at least at 130 kph.

As an attack bowler, If you bowl 120KPH, then you have no business playing cricket at an international level. The rest is all nonsense, sorry!

 

[shah_1]

He shouldn't be playing international cricket. Such low pace then cherry on the top is seam movement is very little. If you want similar bowler to Abbas , then pick Aamir Yamin or Hammad Azam, at least they can bat

 

[Abid Z]

Finally Rizwan stands up to the stumps. At 177-3, you have to question why it's taken so long.

Listen to what Brendon McCullum is saying right now - an international keeper who is praising this decision. Sounds like I am not the one who is "unaware" of how this game should be played.

And look at what the commentators are saying about how this should have been done much earlier.

I wasn’t disagreeing with standing up for abbas just the timing of it. But really the next point is abbass could do with being a little better than a one trick pony. Philander McGrath pollock all had a variety of ways to prise out batsmen. The odd cutter or slower ball (though abbas couldn’t be any slower) etc etc. Because abbas, wonderful metronome that he is a tad predictable it’s putting pressure on rizwan do do something which is incredibly daring.

 

[Zaz]

He shouldve been up from the first ball with a helmet

What were the think tank thinking?

 

[Napa]

As an attack bowler, If you bowl 120KPH, then you have no business playing cricket at an international level. The rest is all nonsense, sorry!

Abbas is ranked #12 in the ICC Test bowlers list, quite a bit ahead of the next best Pakistani pacer Shaheen at #33.

https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/player-rankings/test/bowling

 

[shah_1]

Abbas is ranked #12 in the ICC Test bowlers list, quite a bit ahead of the next best Pakistani pacer Shaheen at #33.

https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/player-rankings/test/bowling

He has a bowling strike rate of 100 in last 13 matches, all that ranking is due to extraordinary performance in first 10 matches. Remember Smith was ranked 4th despite not playing international cricket for one year

 

[shah_1]

He has a bowling strike rate of 100 in last 13 matches, all that ranking is due to extraordinary performance in first 10 matches. Remember Smith was ranked 4th despite not playing international cricket for one year

To have an idea how bad it is

I looked at bowling SR of Pakistani fast bowlers who bowled in 20 plus innings in last 2 decades. The pakistan players with career worst SR is Muhammad Sami 88, and Rahat Ali 72.

He has been worse than Rahat Ali and Muhammad Sami )

 

[Sir Alex]

Except that Abbas has been very successful for us, much more so than anyone else. And that's because he's extremely accurate.

Too many people here don't want Rizwan to stand up to the stumps because it hurts their ego as a nation with a proud fast bowling history. However we have to be practical here and do what works. Not sit back and let the game run away, thinking we won't try x or y because we don't like the thought of it.

I think its dangerous for keeper to stand upto stumps in the SNA countries due to the bounce off the pitch. Vernon Philander used to bowl similar speeds but I don't recollect anyone standing upto the stumps.

On the contrary, if batsmen are regularly standing out of crease, it is upto the bowler to intelligently make the minor adjustments forcing the batsman to stay back. Adjust the length proportionately if needed.

It is real desperation when a keeper is blamed for not standing upto the stumps to arguably the best (and new ball) bowler in the side.

 

[choudhary6964]

Faheem is doing better job than this trundler.He should be dropped as soon as possible.Not good enough.was never good enough.

 

[shah_1]

Faheem is doing better job than this trundler.He should be dropped as soon as possible.Not good enough.was never good enough.

wrong to say but he was quality in his first 10 matches.
<iframe src="https://streamable.com/e/gft95m" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Look at his wickets against Australia

128.3 kph
126.8
126.7
125.9
135.7
130.3
128.3
131.8
132.8
132.8

His fastest delivery is no more than 127 kph these days

 

[Usman]

I think its dangerous for keeper to stand upto stumps in the SNA countries due to the bounce off the pitch. Vernon Philander used to bowl similar speeds but I don't recollect anyone standing upto the stumps.

On the contrary, if batsmen are regularly standing out of crease, it is upto the bowler to intelligently make the minor adjustments forcing the batsman to stay back. Adjust the length proportionately if needed.

It is real desperation when a keeper is blamed for not standing upto the stumps to arguably the best (and new ball) bowler in the side.

At 125KPH, no adjustment by the bowler is going to push the batsman back. Even a short ball will be easily handled at that pace.

What's more is that if a batsman stands that far down the crease, it negates whatever swing or seam might be available. The facts speak for themselves. As I have now said repeatedly, Abbas averages 18 when the batsman plays from within his crease and 132 when the batsman plays from outside his crease. By standing back, we are handing the opposition a monumental advantage and I cannot for the life of me work out why so many seemingly intelligent people can't see it.

Even in SENA conditions, Rizwan is more than capable standing up to the stumps. And remember, Brendon McCullum was screaming the same all throughout commentary last night. I think Brendon knows a thing or two more about wicketkeeping and tactics in international cricket than you or I.

It is not desperation at all. It is ensuring your strike bowler is mighty effective vs ensuring he's totally ineffective.

Seriously, people here have gone totally mad.

 

[Usman]

I wasn’t disagreeing with standing up for abbas just the timing of it. But really the next point is abbass could do with being a little better than a one trick pony. Philander McGrath pollock all had a variety of ways to prise out batsmen. The odd cutter or slower ball (though abbas couldn’t be any slower) etc etc. Because abbas, wonderful metronome that he is a tad predictable it’s putting pressure on rizwan do do something which is incredibly daring.

The timing of it? It needs to be done the very second the batsman steps out of his crease. There's no point at 500-0!!!

I agree that if you negate Abbas's swing and seam he has nothing. But that is always the case with bowlers who can't get up to 145KPH. Abbas is unique in that his accuracy means that, as long as the batsmen play him from within the crease, he will deceive them.

Please God let the Pakistani team see some sense.

 

[mazkhan]

Oh do give it a rest southee, shaun pollock , Glen mcgrath even Vernon philander , asif, razzaq, wagner etc all bowled around the mid 125-130 most of the time

Even James Anderson and Stuart Broad have dropped down to extended speeds of 80-82mph a lot of times in a test match ,its not easy bowling 140kph +

Asif was always bowling between 79-81mph the speed Abbas bowls at .

The simple fact is abbas has been found out and he virtually does nothing with the ball there is very little seam or swing and he has no variation that's it he's got nothing in his armoury .
I've seen philander many times bowling around 125 , 128 , 130 and picking wickets with that speed.

 

[Savak]

Oh do give it a rest southee, shaun pollock , Glen mcgrath even Vernon philander , asif, razzaq, wagner etc all bowled around the mid 125-130 most of the time

Even James Anderson and Stuart Broad have dropped down to extended speeds of 80-82mph a lot of times in a test match ,its not easy bowling 140kph +

Asif was always bowling between 79-81mph the speed Abbas bowls at .

The simple fact is abbas has been found out and he virtually does nothing with the ball there is very little seam or swing and he has no variation that's it he's got nothing in his armoury .
I've seen philander many times bowling around 125 , 128 , 130 and picking wickets with that speed.

The difference is that those bowlers could bowl a mean heavy ball, move the ball both ways at will challenging both edges/stumps and could get plenty of bounce which kept the batsman on the back foot. Abbass is too predictable, Khalid Mehmoodish and lacks the bounce bite for international cricket now

 

[Yk313]

Oh do give it a rest southee, shaun pollock , Glen mcgrath even Vernon philander , asif, razzaq, wagner etc all bowled around the mid 125-130 most of the time

Even James Anderson and Stuart Broad have dropped down to extended speeds of 80-82mph a lot of times in a test match ,its not easy bowling 140kph +

Asif was always bowling between 79-81mph the speed Abbas bowls at .

The simple fact is abbas has been found out and he virtually does nothing with the ball there is very little seam or swing and he has no variation that's it he's got nothing in his armoury .
I've seen philander many times bowling around 125 , 128 , 130 and picking wickets with that speed.

Don’t think that’s the point. Even if Rizwan were to stand physically on top of the batsmen, Abbas will not transform into McGrath.

I believe the OP is talking about trying to maximise, however limited, utility from each player who is in the XI. This means fielding the most appropriate fielders in slips, bowling full and short to batsmen according to their weaknesses, helping Abbas improve his chances of getting a wicket by standing up to him etc.

Even if that means Abbas’ chances of taking a wicket go up from 20% to 30%, unfortunate as it is, the move needs to be made.

Just a matter of trying to squeeze out the last drop out of every member of the XI once the names are submitted on the sheet prior to the start.

All of the selection related doldrums stop when the game begins. Once a team is submitted, it is about maximising its chances of victory regardless of whether or not it is the best XI (on paper).

 

[shah_1]

Oh do give it a rest southee, shaun pollock , Glen mcgrath even Vernon philander , asif, razzaq, wagner etc all bowled around the mid 125-130 most of the time

Even James Anderson and Stuart Broad have dropped down to extended speeds of 80-82mph a lot of times in a test match ,its not easy bowling 140kph +

Asif was always bowling between 79-81mph the speed Abbas bowls at .

The simple fact is abbas has been found out and he virtually does nothing with the ball there is very little seam or swing and he has no variation that's it he's got nothing in his armoury .
I've seen philander many times bowling around 125 , 128 , 130 and picking wickets with that speed.

No doubt

It is as straight as it get. He should be dropped after this. He has no business playing international cricket. Aamir Yamin can give you similar results that is to bowl economically and not take wickets, he can also bat as well

 

[Mamoon]

He has become Imad Wasim with a longer run up. Just bowls dead straight at a similar pace.

At this point, he will have a better chance of taking wickets in T20s as batsmen will take risks against his gun-barrel straight deliveries and might get bowled/LBW by hitting across the line.

The South African series should be his farewell in international cricket.