Most newcomers performing and most seniors failing - Coincidence?

[Madplayer]

A couple of years back there were statements made in Pakistan by some Ex players and selectors that the cupboard is empty and the "talent" which is on display in the national side is the best talent in the country. Shahid Afridi even claimed that he is better than any youngster in the country and hence should not be dropped.

After the advent of PSL, some of the good performances in the tournament got rewarded with the likes of Sharjeel coming into the side. Later on after the next edition shadab khan and Fakhar zamaan came in. Hasan ali, Babar azam, haris sohail, rumman raees and Imad wasim too were given chances, not all of them because of PSL, but they were all given opportunities. Finally in this tournament, Faheem Ashraf has been given a chance.

Coming into the side, most of these newcomers have shown that they have the ability to do better than the seniors in the side, if not go toe to toe with the best talent in the world. On the other hand the seniors in the side have been as abysmal as they were when Pakistan took the long route to number 9 rank in the ODI rankings.

Watching Fakhar and Azhar bat together, you could see the magnitude of difference in quality between the newcomer and the senior pro and that sums up the state of Pakistan team today. They were like Anti-each other.

The contributions of Babar azam and Hasan ali in their short careers have been tremendous with the latter getting praises from cricket pundits worldover after announcing himself in CT. His senior in Wahab on the other hand is living off past performance(s). Amir has played a good supporting role too. In Babar, Pakistan see a long term batting option at number 3. The likes of Shafiq, hafeez etc. were tried at that number only to leave a lot to be desired. Again its a newbie showing the seniors how its done.

In a quest to answer one of the biggest questions haunting Pakistan's LOI side, that who is going to be the power hitter lower down the order, Faheem ashraf has been given a go. In his couple of appearances, the warm up game and the game against SL, faheem has shown glimpses, mind you just glimpses, of a quality hitter. Would he be an upgrade over Afridi, who was nothing short of a lottery ticket, only time will tell. Whether this junior will better the senior is yet to be seen.

Is it a coincidence that these players have performed better than seniors? Fakhar averages 50 in LA, Babar averaged close to 50 as well. Faheem picked up the highest wickets in last domestic tournament and scored crucial quick runs for his team. Hasan has been amongst the best bowlers in the country since a few years now. How much does hafeez average in domestic cricket? What is Azhar's strike rate in domestic cricket if his average is good? Is it just chance that the top performers have performed well in international cricket too and the average performers have remained average? I dont think so.

Pakistan's domestic system needs an overhaul. The pitches need to be better, the grounds need to be better. School cricket needs to be revived. Timings of domestic tournaments and FC season needs to be changed and brought closer to summer. That has to be done but that is a long term process. In the short term, what can be done is one can give ample chances to the young guys who perform well in domestic cricket. It isnt a coincidence that these players perform better than their seniors when you invest in them.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

They are performing because the reassured by the majestic presence of the Professor and Steady Azhar

 

[Madplayer]

They are performing because the reassured by the majestic presence of the Professor and Steady Azhar

Majestic and steady liabilities.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

Majestic and steady liabilities.

Show some izzat to the seniors

 

[Madplayer]

Show some izzat to the seniors

You are right. They might even take my place in my house.

 

[geraltofrivia]

Newcomers do well as they haven't been worked out yet. No one can say that they are quality as of this moment. Even Amir, Umar, Nasir, Wahab, Junaid etc were really good in their first few years of cricket which they haven't been able to replicate. Babar Azam too is showing a downward trend and has not yet made it in test cricket.

 

[Madplayer]

Newcomers do well as they haven't been worked out yet. No one can say that they are quality as of this moment. Even Amir, Umar, Nasir, Wahab, Junaid etc were really good in their first few years of cricket which they haven't been able to replicate. Babar Azam too is showing a downward trend and has not yet made it in test cricket.

Babar is out of form. He has good performances in australia and Nz as well. He will be fine. Not sure what you are on about amir and junaid. While they arent as good as they used to be, they have been fine. Junaid suffered a knee injury which is why he bowled trash last time around but seems to have recovered now. Umar hasnt been worked out he doesnt have a brain. Nasir is a shady character so i wont comment on him till his case is over. Wahab was never a very good bowler, just decent, and he is 32 so you expect an out and out pacer to decline at 32. Not sure how he has been found out.

 

[New Yorker]

A couple of years back there were statements made in Pakistan by some Ex players and selectors that the cupboard is empty and the "talent" which is on display in the national side is the best talent in the country. Shahid Afridi even claimed that he is better than any youngster in the country and hence should not be dropped.

After the advent of PSL, some of the good performances in the tournament got rewarded with the likes of Sharjeel coming into the side. Later on after the next edition shadab khan and Fakhar zamaan came in. Hasan ali, Babar azam, haris sohail, rumman raees and Imad wasim too were given chances, not all of them because of PSL, but they were all given opportunities. Finally in this tournament, Faheem Ashraf has been given a chance.

Coming into the side, most of these newcomers have shown that they have the ability to do better than the seniors in the side, if not go toe to toe with the best talent in the world. On the other hand the seniors in the side have been as abysmal as they were when Pakistan took the long route to number 9 rank in the ODI rankings.

Watching Fakhar and Azhar bat together, you could see the magnitude of difference in quality between the newcomer and the senior pro and that sums up the state of Pakistan team today. They were like Anti-each other.

The contributions of Babar azam and Hasan ali in their short careers have been tremendous with the latter getting praises from cricket pundits worldover after announcing himself in CT. His senior in Wahab on the other hand is living off past performance(s). Amir has played a good supporting role too. In Babar, Pakistan see a long term batting option at number 3. The likes of Shafiq, hafeez etc. were tried at that number only to leave a lot to be desired. Again its a newbie showing the seniors how its done.

In a quest to answer one of the biggest questions haunting Pakistan's LOI side, that who is going to be the power hitter lower down the order, Faheem ashraf has been given a go. In his couple of appearances, the warm up game and the game against SL, faheem has shown glimpses, mind you just glimpses, of a quality hitter. Would he be an upgrade over Afridi, who was nothing short of a lottery ticket, only time will tell. Whether this junior will better the senior is yet to be seen.

Is it a coincidence that these players have performed better than seniors? Fakhar averages 50 in LA, Babar averaged close to 50 as well. Faheem picked up the highest wickets in last domestic tournament and scored crucial quick runs for his team. Hasan has been amongst the best bowlers in the country since a few years now. How much does hafeez average in domestic cricket? What is Azhar's strike rate in domestic cricket if his average is good? Is it just chance that the top performers have performed well in international cricket too and the average performers have remained average? I dont think so.

Pakistan's domestic system needs an overhaul. The pitches need to be better, the grounds need to be better. School cricket needs to be revived. Timings of domestic tournaments and FC season needs to be changed and brought closer to summer. That has to be done but that is a long term process. In the short term, what can be done is one can give ample chances to the young guys who perform well in domestic cricket. It isnt a coincidence that these players perform better than their seniors when you invest in them.

this should be common sense. it is not just about youngsters performing, which they have. even if one or two of them do not, sticking with proven failures can never be an option. you rinse and repeat. pragmatism is the only way forward and results the only thing that matters.

fans are more often than not part of the problem here. lots of ideological fervor invested in the notion that a player needs to look a certain way to do well. phaast, tall, blah blah. if [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] had had his way, hasan ali would never have played. if [MENTION=141390]Ellipsism[/MENTION]s has the say we would never select a bowler like the fizz. this is the very definition of dogma.

 

[New Yorker]

Newcomers do well as they haven't been worked out yet. No one can say that they are quality as of this moment. Even Amir, Umar, Nasir, Wahab, Junaid etc were really good in their first few years of cricket which they haven't been able to replicate. Babar Azam too is showing a downward trend and has not yet made it in test cricket.

Ergo, stick with seniors who have 100% been worked out years ago, do not chance juniors who *may* be worked out in the future?

 

[the Great Khan]

Watching Fakhar and Azhar bat together, you could see the magnitude of difference in quality between the newcomer and the senior pro and that sums up the state of Pakistan team today. They were like Anti-each other. -

hunh? Azhar is one of the worlds best test batsman so his quality is not in question. What is in question is his ODI adaptability so lets not mix the two. i'm getting a bit sick of some if you denigrating a player of his quality. Fakhar is a great find but lets not get too darried away just yet.

as for Hafeez and Malik well they lack quality and always have hence why they will never measure upto the standards required.

 

[pakistanigoneaussie]

You are right. They might even take my place in my house.

In all seriousness everything you say is a 100% right. I'm pessimistic about change though, this is a cultural problem that permeates across society.

In pak cricket youngsters are treated like senior pros who can only have a couple of failures while seniors are treated like youngsters who will be given a long and in some cases endless rope. Worse a lot of it has to do with age rather than experience.

It's important to be respectful to elders but in a sporting environment this now means we have to now accomodate them no matter how flawed they are

 

[MMHS]

Newcomers do well as they haven't been worked out yet. No one can say that they are quality as of this moment. Even Amir, Umar, Nasir, Wahab, Junaid etc were really good in their first few years of cricket which they haven't been able to replicate. Babar Azam too is showing a downward trend and has not yet made it in test cricket.

That's life - young players come, they get worked out; but the players themselves also work on their short falls. Some ends like Faisal Iqbal some like Azhar Ali (in Test). That only tells that, you should manage a team of average age around 23-29. There'll be few seniors in 30s, most of the squad in their mid to late 20s & few in early 20s or even teens. Whoever is worked out from the last 2 groups & don't have the character to work hard on counter measures, gets replaced by another one from same bunch. Only those who can overcome that tough period should retire in grace from that selective 1st bunch of 30+ greats.

If you replace Azhar Ali with Kamran Akmal or Wahab Riaz with Sohail Tanvir, or Ajmal with Zulfi Babar ......... you know........

 

[ExpressPacer]

POTW worthy bro.

 

[Madplayer]

this should be common sense. it is not just about youngsters performing, which they have. even if one or two of them do not, sticking with proven failures can never be an option. you rinse and repeat. pragmatism is the only way forward and results the only thing that matters.

fans are more often than not part of the problem here. lots of ideological fervor invested in the notion that a player needs to look a certain way to do well. phaast, tall, blah blah. if [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] had had his way, hasan ali would never have played. if [MENTION=141390]Ellipsism[/MENTION]s has the say we would never select a bowler like the fizz. this is the very definition of dogma.

I think along with fans, the selectors too have well defined boundaries in terms of how a player should look like and play like . Thats why asad shafiq was given such a long rope in LOIs while sharjeel was dropped so soon after making debut.

 

[New Yorker]

In all seriousness everything you say is a 100% right. I'm pessimistic about change though, this is a cultural problem that permeates across society.

In pak cricket youngsters are treated like senior pros who can only have a couple of failures while seniors are treated like youngsters who will be given a long and in some cases endless rope. Worse a lot of it has to do with age rather than experience.

It's important to be respectful to elders but in a sporting environment this now means we have to now accomodate them no matter how flawed they are

form is temporary garbage is permanent.

what the debate about class and quality overlooks is that it can sometimes very worthwhile
to make use of a player in red hot form even if they come off the boil in a year or two. shaun
tait did not have an exceptional career but he won a world cup for oz.

but for that policy to
work you also have to the courage to drop players when they do come off the boil.

the problem is we don't know how to deal with mediocrity. as long as a bowler is averaging
30ish something he is preferred over a domestic sensation who was twice as good as him
in domestics.

If selectors are nervous about the quality of domestic cricket they need to give more chances
to untested talent, not less.

it can be as simple as rotating in an uncapped player in every dead rubber. compare
england vs pakistan in the last bilateral series, then pakistan vs windies in the uae

 

[Madplayer]

In all seriousness everything you say is a 100% right. I'm pessimistic about change though, this is a cultural problem that permeates across society.

In pak cricket youngsters are treated like senior pros who can only have a couple of failures while seniors are treated like youngsters who will be given a long and in some cases endless rope. Worse a lot of it has to do with age rather than experience.

It's important to be respectful to elders but in a sporting environment this now means we have to now accomodate them no matter how flawed they are

Its cancerous to the development of the team. Time and time agaim we see irrational stuff being said by ex players on tv like "please respect seniors, how can u drop seniors". This sort of non sense only exists in Pakistan now.

Another thing is , its really important to pick a new player when he is in good fomestic form. Sometimes they select a new player based on his good performances in the previous year when he is actually struggling in the current year.

 

[Madplayer]

POTW worthy bro.

Thanks just basic stuff though.

 

[New Yorker]

I think along with fans, the selectors too have well defined boundaries in terms of how a player should look like and play like . Thats why asad shafiq was given such a long rope in LOIs while sharjeel was dropped so soon after making debut.

yes and they still can't fully put it out of their heads that tests and odis are different games. i am sure azhar was selected for the CT because they needed a steady hand at the top to negotiate the spitting green mambas of someone's 1970's English summer fantasy.

 

[New Yorker]

Its cancerous to the development of the team. Time and time agaim we see irrational stuff being said by ex players on tv like "please respect seniors, how can u drop seniors". This sort of non sense only exists in Pakistan now.

Another thing is , its really important to pick a new player when he is in good fomestic form. Sometimes they select a new player based on his good performances in the previous year when he is actually struggling in the current year.

seniority is always the last line of defense for the corrupt. they can't justify their sinecures on merit but no one has clung on for as long as they have.

 

[Zabbaz]

POTW worthy bro.

Agree POTW

 

[Zabbaz]

A couple of years back there were statements made in Pakistan by some Ex players and selectors that the cupboard is empty and the "talent" which is on display in the national side is the best talent in the country. Shahid Afridi even claimed that he is better than any youngster in the country and hence should not be dropped.

After the advent of PSL, some of the good performances in the tournament got rewarded with the likes of Sharjeel coming into the side. Later on after the next edition shadab khan and Fakhar zamaan came in. Hasan ali, Babar azam, haris sohail, rumman raees and Imad wasim too were given chances, not all of them because of PSL, but they were all given opportunities. Finally in this tournament, Faheem Ashraf has been given a chance.

Coming into the side, most of these newcomers have shown that they have the ability to do better than the seniors in the side, if not go toe to toe with the best talent in the world. On the other hand the seniors in the side have been as abysmal as they were when Pakistan took the long route to number 9 rank in the ODI rankings.

Watching Fakhar and Azhar bat together, you could see the magnitude of difference in quality between the newcomer and the senior pro and that sums up the state of Pakistan team today. They were like Anti-each other.

The contributions of Babar azam and Hasan ali in their short careers have been tremendous with the latter getting praises from cricket pundits worldover after announcing himself in CT. His senior in Wahab on the other hand is living off past performance(s). Amir has played a good supporting role too. In Babar, Pakistan see a long term batting option at number 3. The likes of Shafiq, hafeez etc. were tried at that number only to leave a lot to be desired. Again its a newbie showing the seniors how its done.

In a quest to answer one of the biggest questions haunting Pakistan's LOI side, that who is going to be the power hitter lower down the order, Faheem ashraf has been given a go. In his couple of appearances, the warm up game and the game against SL, faheem has shown glimpses, mind you just glimpses, of a quality hitter. Would he be an upgrade over Afridi, who was nothing short of a lottery ticket, only time will tell. Whether this junior will better the senior is yet to be seen.

Is it a coincidence that these players have performed better than seniors? Fakhar averages 50 in LA, Babar averaged close to 50 as well. Faheem picked up the highest wickets in last domestic tournament and scored crucial quick runs for his team. Hasan has been amongst the best bowlers in the country since a few years now. How much does hafeez average in domestic cricket? What is Azhar's strike rate in domestic cricket if his average is good? Is it just chance that the top performers have performed well in international cricket too and the average performers have remained average? I dont think so.

Pakistan's domestic system needs an overhaul. The pitches need to be better, the grounds need to be better. School cricket needs to be revived. Timings of domestic tournaments and FC season needs to be changed and brought closer to summer. That has to be done but that is a long term process. In the short term, what can be done is one can give ample chances to the young guys who perform well in domestic cricket. It isnt a coincidence that these players perform better than their seniors when you invest in them.

Brilliantly put. POTW

 

[Zabbaz]

Its cancerous to the development of the team. Time and time agaim we see irrational stuff being said by ex players on tv like "please respect seniors, how can u drop seniors". This sort of non sense only exists in Pakistan now.

Another thing is , its really important to pick a new player when he is in good fomestic form. Sometimes they select a new player based on his good performances in the previous year when he is actually struggling in the current year.

It has been the case for a long time, but I feel like it is something that has increased in the past 6 years or so. Post 2011 WC that excuse has become quite common. I think it has something to do with who was in charge of the team as well as the set of senior players we have had during that time

 

[ExpressPacer]

Thanks just basic stuff though.

*Read in Ramiz Raja's voice*

Have been trying to say it for a long time but you wrote it with absolute precision and class.

 

[Madplayer]

Brilliantly put. POTW

*Read in Ramiz Raja's voice*

Have been trying to say it for a long time but you wrote it with absolute precision and class.

Thank you..thank you very much :

 

[Madplayer]

It has been the case for a long time, but I feel like it is something that has increased in the past 6 years or so. Post 2011 WC that excuse has become quite common. I think it has something to do with who was in charge of the team as well as the set of senior players we have had during that time

As a matter of fact 2011 is around the time when the decline in ODIs started to speed up. Surely insecurity among seniors also increased and hence they began hiding behind the seniority tag.

 

[mak36]

Majestic and steady liabilities.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Its cancerous to the development of the team. Time and time agaim we see irrational stuff being said by ex players on tv like "please respect seniors, how can u drop seniors". This sort of non sense only exists in Pakistan now.

Another thing is , its really important to pick a new player when he is in good fomestic form. Sometimes they select a new player based on his good performances in the previous year when he is actually struggling in the current year.

Making use of the form and purple patch of the batsmen productively is the job of the coach captain selectors and the management which is a rocket science for the PCT and mgmt.

When sarfraz was nearly avg 80-100 during the 2013-2015 period waqar played him at 7 below afridi and was reluctant to use him as an opener too when he had no option. Even remember on 1 occasion when maqsood at 7 played a match winning knock of 80+ and carried the bat winning the game didn't get him a promotion up the order and continued to bat at 7 Misbah and waqar had the same ideology of playing your best batsman of the format at 6 or 7. While Mickey follows the basics and is the opposite of what Misbah and waqar had, which got babar at 3 to all formats. Having said that hafeez doesn't follow the Misbah waqar way of using best batsman at 6. And that is why he is a better thinking captain than the other two.

 

[Hasan123]

Our domestic system is rubbish so it's better to include young players with potential in the international squad or on A tours. Working with pro coaches and playing a better quality of player will help improve them.

Look at the progress of Hasan Ali and Babar Azam.

 

[Madplayer]

Add another debutant to the list. Rumman raees.

 

[Ellipsism]

this should be common sense. it is not just about youngsters performing, which they have. even if one or two of them do not, sticking with proven failures can never be an option. you rinse and repeat. pragmatism is the only way forward and results the only thing that matters.

fans are more often than not part of the problem here. lots of ideological fervor invested in the notion that a player needs to look a certain way to do well. phaast, tall, blah blah. if [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] had had his way, hasan ali would never have played. if [MENTION=141390]Ellipsism[/MENTION]s has the say we would never select a bowler like the fizz. this is the very definition of dogma.

The hype around the Fizz is coming down and so are his performances. He barely managed to scrape a wicket in the CT.

Not that I'm the arrogant type but I did say so.

 

[Badsha]

This is a common phenomena in sport. The newer shiny toys always look better. What people forget is that these old stars that we're sick off: Azhar, Hafeez, Malik and Wahab all looked like world beaters during their first few games.

Fans are always frustrated at why the newer player is not in the team who can make a difference. Then they play a few matches and do well and they feel redeemed but in the long run it isn't that simple. Nasir Jamsheid, Raza Hassan, Hammad Azzam etc are all fine examples of this.

I am as anti Hafeez as it gets. I think he's a pointless player that you can hardly trust nowadays. But to be honest, there is value to experience. Having a fully young squad is very risky.

 

[Madplayer]

Yet again new comers show the way. This time on the biggest stage of them all.

 

[shane]

It happens too regularly to be mere coincidence. But it is not a bad thing for Pakistan cricket at all.

 

[TeymurBlake]

Well the new lads show that the talent in Pakistan is still alive today. But experience wasn't bad in the final. Azhar allowed Fakhar to attack and play his way, he contributed the way he needed to 59 off 71 isn't bad as long as the other batter was scoring at a strike rate of 100+, Hafeez played expectionally his batting was good and aggressive which we needed at the end overs, his bowling wasn't that bad but he unfortunately did go for 13 runs off his only over. Malik was probably the only player that could have done better with the bat but he made it up with his fielding. But the newcomers stole the show which is great to see. Hasan bowled well especially since he made his international debut in the same part of the world and Shadab who is in really good form despite slightly dropping off since his spectacular debut