MS Dhoni does not have a single century outside Asia in any format

[Bilal7]

These are some pretty poor numbers. He averages below 35 outside Asia, so the lack of centuries has to do with him not being good enough, rather than not being in a position to do so, a la Misbah.

I'll still rate him as an ODI ATG batsman though. Averaged a 40 in Australia, England, New Zealand and South Africa away, which is better than the likes of Inzamam for example, who was a very good ODI batsman in his own right.

Mediocre in tests, however.

 

[Drreddymd]

His half centuries out side of asia
South africa =2
England =5
Nz= 5
Wi=1
Aus =2

 

[Drreddymd]

These are some pretty poor numbers. He averages below 35 outside Asia, so the lack of centuries has to do with him not being good enough, rather than not being in a position to do so, a la Misbah.

I'll still rate him as an ODI ATG batsman though. Averaged a 40 in Australia, England, New Zealand and South Africa away, which is better than the likes of Inzamam for example, who was a very good ODI batsman in his own right.

Mediocre in tests, however.

Excuse me he averages 40 in aus, nz only. He averages 37 in eng, 24 in sa,

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

No sir , hatred started when Ganguly was droped and then Tendulkar fans hopped on , some Dravid and VVS fans too. Playing for CSK , definitely dint help with his popularity. Ranchi had no chance against Mumbai , Kolkatta , Bangalore and Hyderabad together .

The real frustration started post the 0-8 loss in my opinion.

Ganguly towards the end had ended up annoying a lot of fans. Apart from his home state, I don't think he commanded undying support regardless of his performance. Tendulkar fans are a sensitive bunch no doubt but I don't see how we can say they got in on the hate due to Ganguly sacking.

Dhoni was a small town guy but he was a superstar in stature. This ain't a Ranchi vs Mumbai/Hyderabad/Bangalore/Delhi thingy.

[MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION]

There is difference between hatred and criticism, yeah?

There is no player in the world that has escaped criticism and Dhoni is same, he was probably criticized in the very first year of his career, who denied that?

However the hatred that's spewed against him is unwarranted. And frankly there is only one logical reason to it, he has been quite vocal about India moving on and as a result some of the Indian greats have been removed unceremoniously.

Several genuine reasons for frustration against Dhoni which can sometimes turn into hate.

Dhoni throwing away some players ain't it. Maybe its for some hardcore fans of that player but I don't see any such fans here.

 

[Drreddymd]

His half centuries out side of asia
South africa =2
England =5
Nz= 5
Wi=1
Aus =2

Of the 15 half centuries india won only 2 one match in eng in 2014 and one match in nz in 2009.

So please explain To me how he is a match winner outside of asia.

 

[Drreddymd]

Of the 15 half centuries india won only 2 one match in eng in 2014 and one match in nz in 2009.

So please explain To me how he is a match winner outside of asia.

Most of his half centuries are against sl, pak and bang outside of india.

If above numbers make him a match winner and atg then atg doesnt have any meaning

 

[Bilal7]

Most of his half centuries are against sl, pak and bang outside of india.

If above numbers make him a match winner and atg then atg doesnt have any meaning

Excuse me he averages 40 in aus, nz only. He averages 37 in eng, 24 in sa,

He was the only Indian batsman who stood up to Junaid, Irfan, Ajmal and Gul during the Aaney do series. The rest of the Indian superstars were getting owned left, right and center. He deserves credit for that, not a dismissive comment.

Yes, he failed in South Africa but you won't like Tendulker or Kohli's numbers in South Africa either. That place is simply the hardest country to bat in.

 

[Drreddymd]

Of the 15 half centuries india won only 2 one match in eng in 2014 and one match in nz in 2009.

So please explain To me how he is a match winner outside of asia.

More myth busting facts guys. If a team wins 2 matches out of his 15 matches when he scores half centuries is he a match winner at all?

The greatest irony is his fans calling tendulkar centuries meaningless but this so called match winner is even worse. If a finisher who scores 50 and team loses what do u make of his innings? Is he a finisher or stats padder?

 

[Stallion__]

Please tell me that matches where he helped india win for all Of us to see?

It is a myth that he is a match winner outside of asia because he doednt have match winning knocks

I know it will have little effect because of your propensity to degrade MS but still

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/597929.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656453.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/291366.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656475.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/366623.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/377315.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518959.html

 

[Varun]

Gambhirs innings is not rated by many. Its always Dhoni and his six. Gambhir-Kohli ,Gambhir-Dhoni was the crutial partnerships. Common factor is Gambhir. He was dismissed within 50 runs. MOM should've gone to Gambhir. He did it for us in T20 2007 final and 2011 final. I guess Dhoni is more sellable

I subscribe to this view. Refer this thread from a few months ago for more:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...about-Dhoni-s-91*-in-the-2011-World-Cup-final

 

[Drreddymd]

He was the only Indian batsman who stood up to Junaid, Irfan, Ajmal and Gul during the Aaney do series. The rest of the Indian superstars were getting owned left, right and center. He deserves credit for that, not a dismissive comment.

Yes, he failed in South Africa but you won't like Tendulker or Kohli's numbers in South Africa either. That place is simply the hardest country to bat in.

Yeah we r talking about his performances outside of asia right?

What is the use of his century against pak if the team loses? His fans and u question about sachin centuries as meaning less if the team loses any way? Why the double standards?
Please stick to the topic

 

[Drreddymd]

I know it will have little effect because of your propensity to degrade MS but still

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/597929.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656453.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/291366.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656475.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/366623.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/377315.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518959.html

If wins against zim, wi, are to be included then it is clutching at straws. The match against aus should have been won 5 overs before as gambhir said after his knock of 91 in which dhoni tuk tuked and took the game to the last over and won on the last ball

 

[Statsman]

If wins against zim, wi, are to be included then it is clutching at straws. The match against aus should have been won 5 overs before as gambhir said after his knock of 91 in which dhoni tuk tuked and took the game to the last over and won on the last ball

WI and Zimbabwe are outside Asia. Please stick to the topic.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Would like to see how many games did he win outside asia, I mean dragging the team to be victorious from a tough situation..

 

[Drreddymd]

WI and Zimbabwe are outside Asia. Please stick to the topic.

Yeah wins against mighty zim, wi is the basis for his atg status right?

 

[Drreddymd]

I know it will have little effect because of your propensity to degrade MS but still

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/597929.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656453.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/291366.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656475.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/366623.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/377315.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518959.html

Not in one match he is the best player. He is at best a side kick and not a main lead

 

[Drreddymd]

I know it will have little effect because of your propensity to degrade MS but still

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/597929.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656453.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/291366.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/656475.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/366623.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/377315.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/518959.html

I can give u more examples than that where he lost games with his tuk tuk

 

[Buffet]

57 out of his total 86 innings outside of Asia came at batting at 6 or lower. Let's look at record of 6 or lower for wicket-keepers outside of home in entire history without going into Asia or non-Asia.




So we have a grand total of 2 tons when we talk about keeper batsman batting at 6 or lower.


----------------


Now if you want to talk about Asia and non-Asia, here is record of all Asian batsmen in entire history of ODI who batted 6 or lower outside of Asia,



Something should jump out here as well. It doesn't show here, but there has been grand total of 2 tons. Kapil 175* & Pathan 105. Both were freak innings.


I threw some data point to put things in perspective here which most posters are missing in this thread. Only two tons by keeper batsmen in entire history outside of home who batted 6 or below. Only two freak tons by Asian batsmen outside Asia who batted 6 or below in entire history.

So in thousands of ODIs by so many we have got 3-4 tons here in this chosen criterion. Should we really criticize a keeper batsmen for not scoring a ton outside Asia who batted mostly at 6 or below?

Many criticism can be targeted towards Dhoni, but this one looks weird to me. Even if you look at his over all record, majority of his tons came when he batted above 6. Simply said, you are going to get very few tons if you bat at 6 or below most of the times and if you start adding filter like alien condition then you are going to get even less tons for anyone batting 6 or below. It should be obvious from the examples given in this post.

 

[Drreddymd]

57 out of his total 86 innings outside of Asia came at batting at 6 or lower. Let's look at record of 6 or lower for wicket-keepers outside of home in entire history without going into Asia or non-Asia.


View attachment 72280

So we have a grand total of 2 tons when we talk about keeper batsman batting at 6 or lower.


----------------


Now if you want to talk about Asia and non-Asia, here is record of all Asian batsmen in entire history of ODI who batted 6 or lower outside of Asia,

View attachment 72281

Something should jump out here as well. It doesn't show here, but there has been grand total of 2 tons. Kapil 175* & Pathan 105. Both were freak innings.


I threw some data point to put things in perspective here which most posters are missing in this thread. Only two tons by keeper batsmen in entire history outside of home who batted 6 or below. Only two freak tons by Asian batsmen outside Asia who batted 6 or below in entire history.

So in thousands of ODIs by so many we have got 3-4 tons here in this chosen criterion. Should we really criticize a keeper batsmen for not scoring a ton outside Asia who batted mostly at 6 or below?

Many criticism can be targeted towards Dhoni, but this one looks weird to me. Even if you look at his over all record, majority of his tons came when he batted above 6. Simply said, you are going to get very few tons if you bat at 6 or below most of the times and if you start adding filter like alien condition then you are going to get even less tons for anyone batting 6 or below. It should be obvious from the examples given in this post.

Nobody in that list is considered an atg apart from dhoni right? If he cant score a century it means 2 things either the indian batting is vry good or if the indian batting fails he fails as well. Then what is so great about him and how is he a match winner?

 

[Drreddymd]

57 out of his total 86 innings outside of Asia came at batting at 6 or lower. Let's look at record of 6 or lower for wicket-keepers outside of home in entire history without going into Asia or non-Asia.


View attachment 72280

So we have a grand total of 2 tons when we talk about keeper batsman batting at 6 or lower.


----------------


Now if you want to talk about Asia and non-Asia, here is record of all Asian batsmen in entire history of ODI who batted 6 or lower outside of Asia,

View attachment 72281

Something should jump out here as well. It doesn't show here, but there has been grand total of 2 tons. Kapil 175* & Pathan 105. Both were freak innings.


I threw some data point to put things in perspective here which most posters are missing in this thread. Only two tons by keeper batsmen in entire history outside of home who batted 6 or below. Only two freak tons by Asian batsmen outside Asia who batted 6 or below in entire history.

So in thousands of ODIs by so many we have got 3-4 tons here in this chosen criterion. Should we really criticize a keeper batsmen for not scoring a ton outside Asia who batted mostly at 6 or below?

Many criticism can be targeted towards Dhoni, but this one looks weird to me. Even if you look at his over all record, majority of his tons came when he batted above 6. Simply said, you are going to get very few tons if you bat at 6 or below most of the times and if you start adding filter like alien condition then you are going to get even less tons for anyone batting 6 or below. It should be obvious from the examples given in this post.

Leave aside centuries as i posted above if india won 2 matches out of 15 if he scores half centuries how is he a match winner?

 

[Drreddymd]

57 out of his total 86 innings outside of Asia came at batting at 6 or lower. Let's look at record of 6 or lower for wicket-keepers outside of home in entire history without going into Asia or non-Asia.


View attachment 72280

So we have a grand total of 2 tons when we talk about keeper batsman batting at 6 or lower.


----------------


Now if you want to talk about Asia and non-Asia, here is record of all Asian batsmen in entire history of ODI who batted 6 or lower outside of Asia,

View attachment 72281

Something should jump out here as well. It doesn't show here, but there has been grand total of 2 tons. Kapil 175* & Pathan 105. Both were freak innings.


I threw some data point to put things in perspective here which most posters are missing in this thread. Only two tons by keeper batsmen in entire history outside of home who batted 6 or below. Only two freak tons by Asian batsmen outside Asia who batted 6 or below in entire history.

So in thousands of ODIs by so many we have got 3-4 tons here in this chosen criterion. Should we really criticize a keeper batsmen for not scoring a ton outside Asia who batted mostly at 6 or below?

Many criticism can be targeted towards Dhoni, but this one looks weird to me. Even if you look at his over all record, majority of his tons came when he batted above 6. Simply said, you are going to get very few tons if you bat at 6 or below most of the times and if you start adding filter like alien condition then you are going to get even less tons for anyone batting 6 or below. It should be obvious from the examples given in this post.

An atg should have atleast one innings in which he stands out from the rest even if the tam loses right?

 

[Buffet]

An atg should have atleast one innings in which he stands out from the rest even if the tam loses right?

Number of tons by Asians who batted 6 or below is less than the number of doubles scored in all positions in ODI format in entire history. Should we apply the same logic of ATG and double centuries?

It's simply not relevant in judging anyone if we are talking about such rare cases. You can certainly criticize him for many things, but I don't see much argument here.

 

[Drreddymd]

Number of tons by Asians who batted 6 or below is less than the number of doubles scored in all positions in ODI format in entire history. Should we apply the same logic of ATG and double centuries?

It's simply not relevant in judging anyone if we are talking about such rare cases. You can certainly criticize him for many things, but I don't see much argument here.

So asking even one score in which he stands out is not justified for an atg?

So please justify his atg status on his performance outside of asia by any metric

 

[Tusker]

Doesn't matter cos it was an irrelevant example cos no fan remembers any ICC tourney knock from Dhoni apart from the WC final even without going into statsguru.

I just gave you one prime example and no surprise that you don't remember anything because you never really watched it in the first place. Without MSD's contributions in that match we would have been kicked out and wouldnt have a ... needless to say that you are the one that relies on stats guru to find holes and then claim victory. Its like shooting an arrow on a blank wall and then circling around the hit to claim a bulls eye. Worse yet somehow magically the same rules dont apply to ABD who has never won a single KO match for his team let alone a final.

As for ABD, no one calls him super clutch who can score in any pressure situation. Dude has issues with pressure but it can't be denied that he got very limited chances in ODI knockouts but he has still done very well. He still has to click in WC 2019 to clear things up (and if he fails there, people will rightfully torch him down). But then the same logic applies to Kohli too in ODIs.

Thank God for small mercies. So why were you jumping up to his defense ? You make the chances happen one way or the other ... Dhoni does that brilliantly thru his outstanding keeping + captaincy alone.

As for blind hater of Dhoni, its sure as hell funny to read that cos no blind hater of a player will call that player ATG...mo blind hater would defend that player's greatest knock but since he made valid criticisms that show the player in very poor light, let's call him blind hater.

I love the way you perceive reality in black and white.

As for your comment about agrezi commies a few posts back, you have managed to turn the desi inferiority complex (which does exist) into a TOOL that you can use when fans question the performances of certain players by calling those fans as being too impressionable to western narrative EVEN though the same fans have spoken against those narratives in the past and talked about the effects of inferiority complex in desis a lot.

As I said, classic black & white perception of reality.

Not sure what you are going on about but the reason I even commented in this bash fest is the way you tried to defend ABD's failings and marked them down to bad luck. Wah-ji-wah. MSD is a much lesser batsman compared to ABD but you must be seriously blind to not realize how MSD makes the most out of his own limited skills but also gets the most out of his bowlers who are pedestrian ...


Maybe this will help you understand what it means to be captain + keeper and then expected to bat (Only Crazy Indian fans will claim that its perfectly normal to have that sort of expectations) : http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...12;trophy=44;trophy=67;trophy=89;type=batting


So to sum up the topic .... you are like those people who go to a restaurant and never like what they ordered and feel that the other guy on the next table had the best dishes. Just never happy no matter what and always complaining. Unrealistic expectations to put it mildly. The way you go on-and-on about those 8 Test Away test matches that MSD lost tells all that we need to know. You never once will give credit to his outstanding clean slate against Aussies at home. He is the only captain to win 8 consecutive Test matches against Aussies at home. Even Clive Lloyd does not have that and let me tell you that the 80s Aussie team was nowhere in comparison to the Aussie team that visited us in 2008, 2010. Pretty sure you think MSD did nothing of note in those Home Tests and that he was just plain lucky.

 

[Tusker]

So asking even one score in which he stands out is not justified for an atg?

So please justify his atg status on his performance outside of asia by any metric

I don't understand this fixation for anything outside Asia .... do you think the WC win was of no consequence at all because afterall it was all played at home (not even outside home in Asia) ?

 

[Drreddymd]

I just gave you one prime example and no surprise that you don't remember anything because you never really watched it in the first place. Without MSD's contributions in that match we would have been kicked out and wouldnt have a ... needless to say that you are the one that relies on stats guru to find holes and then claim victory. Its like shooting an arrow on a blank wall and then circling around the hit to claim a bulls eye. Worse yet somehow magically the same rules dont apply to ABD who has never won a single KO match for his team let alone a final.



Thank God for small mercies. So why were you jumping up to his defense ? You make the chances happen one way or the other ... Dhoni does that brilliantly thru his outstanding keeping + captaincy alone.



Not sure what you are going on about but the reason I even commented in this bash fest is the way you tried to defend ABD's failings and marked them down to bad luck. Wah-ji-wah. MSD is a much lesser batsman compared to ABD but you must be seriously blind to not realize how MSD makes the most out of his own limited skills but also gets the most out of his bowlers who are pedestrian ...


Maybe this will help you understand what it means to be captain + keeper and then expected to bat (Only Crazy Indian fans will claim that its perfectly normal to have that sort of expectations) : http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...12;trophy=44;trophy=67;trophy=89;type=batting


So to sum up the topic .... you are like those people who go to a restaurant and never like what they ordered and feel that the other guy on the next table had the best dishes. Just never happy no matter what and always complaining. Unrealistic expectations to put it mildly. The way you go on-and-on about those 8 Test Away test matches that MSD lost tells all that we need to know. You never once will give credit to his outstanding clean slate against Aussies at home. He is the only captain to win 8 consecutive Test matches against Aussies at home. Even Clive Lloyd does not have that and let me tell you that the 80s Aussie team was nowhere in comparison to the Aussie team that visited us in 2008, 2010. Pretty sure you think MSD did nothing of note in those Home Tests and that he was just plain lucky.

The same aus team which is white washed by every subcontinent team is an achievement right?

If his combination of batting, keeping, captaincy make him an atg then why this discussion that he is an atg batsman alone came out.

Dl u think he is an atg based on his batting alone?

 

[Drreddymd]

I don't understand this fixation for anything outside Asia .... do you think the WC win was of no consequence at all because afterall it was all played at home (not even outside home in Asia) ?

This discussion is regarding his atg status as a batsman which his fans claim to be and not on world cup win

 

[Vorador]

Centuries are overrated. How many centuries does Mike Hussey have in ODIs?

 

[Drreddymd]

I just gave you one prime example and no surprise that you don't remember anything because you never really watched it in the first place. Without MSD's contributions in that match we would have been kicked out and wouldnt have a ... needless to say that you are the one that relies on stats guru to find holes and then claim victory. Its like shooting an arrow on a blank wall and then circling around the hit to claim a bulls eye. Worse yet somehow magically the same rules dont apply to ABD who has never won a single KO match for his team let alone a final.



Thank God for small mercies. So why were you jumping up to his defense ? You make the chances happen one way or the other ... Dhoni does that brilliantly thru his outstanding keeping + captaincy alone.



Not sure what you are going on about but the reason I even commented in this bash fest is the way you tried to defend ABD's failings and marked them down to bad luck. Wah-ji-wah. MSD is a much lesser batsman compared to ABD but you must be seriously blind to not realize how MSD makes the most out of his own limited skills but also gets the most out of his bowlers who are pedestrian ...


Maybe this will help you understand what it means to be captain + keeper and then expected to bat (Only Crazy Indian fans will claim that its perfectly normal to have that sort of expectations) : http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...12;trophy=44;trophy=67;trophy=89;type=batting


So to sum up the topic .... you are like those people who go to a restaurant and never like what they ordered and feel that the other guy on the next table had the best dishes. Just never happy no matter what and always complaining. Unrealistic expectations to put it mildly. The way you go on-and-on about those 8 Test Away test matches that MSD lost tells all that we need to know. You never once will give credit to his outstanding clean slate against Aussies at home. He is the only captain to win 8 consecutive Test matches against Aussies at home. Even Clive Lloyd does not have that and let me tell you that the 80s Aussie team was nowhere in comparison to the Aussie team that visited us in 2008, 2010. Pretty sure you think MSD did nothing of note in those Home Tests and that he was just plain lucky.

The responses are due to unreal hype of him which is in no way justified. U r the one taking everything to his advantage like if team wins and he fails u hype his captaincy and if the same team fails the team is rubbish and not him. Its all about him right and never about other players right? If any player performs it is due to. Jis captaincy but when he fails players are rubbish. What logic is this?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I just gave you one prime example and no surprise that you don't remember anything because you never really watched it in the first place. Without MSD's contributions in that match we would have been kicked out and wouldnt have a ... needless to say that you are the one that relies on stats guru to find holes and then claim victory. Its like shooting an arrow on a blank wall and then circling around the hit to claim a bulls eye. Worse yet somehow magically the same rules dont apply to ABD who has never won a single KO match for his team let alone a final.



Thank God for small mercies. So why were you jumping up to his defense ? You make the chances happen one way or the other ... Dhoni does that brilliantly thru his outstanding keeping + captaincy alone.



Not sure what you are going on about but the reason I even commented in this bash fest is the way you tried to defend ABD's failings and marked them down to bad luck. Wah-ji-wah. MSD is a much lesser batsman compared to ABD but you must be seriously blind to not realize how MSD makes the most out of his own limited skills but also gets the most out of his bowlers who are pedestrian ...


Maybe this will help you understand what it means to be captain + keeper and then expected to bat (Only Crazy Indian fans will claim that its perfectly normal to have that sort of expectations) : http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...12;trophy=44;trophy=67;trophy=89;type=batting


So to sum up the topic .... you are like those people who go to a restaurant and never like what they ordered and feel that the other guy on the next table had the best dishes. Just never happy no matter what and always complaining. Unrealistic expectations to put it mildly. The way you go on-and-on about those 8 Test Away test matches that MSD lost tells all that we need to know. You never once will give credit to his outstanding clean slate against Aussies at home. He is the only captain to win 8 consecutive Test matches against Aussies at home. Even Clive Lloyd does not have that and let me tell you that the 80s Aussie team was nowhere in comparison to the Aussie team that visited us in 2008, 2010. Pretty sure you think MSD did nothing of note in those Home Tests and that he was just plain lucky.

You are all over the place reg a simple discussion. Haha. I said ill luck in ODIs. Not T20Is where ABD has not even been good performance wise and has poor career stats let alone poor ICC tourney stats.

I don't need to even respond to the rest of the post where you build up your own logical sequences as to why XYZ is good.

 

[Drreddymd]

You are all over the place reg a simple discussion. Haha. I said ill luck in ODIs. Not T20Is where ABD has not even been good performance wise and has poor career stats let alone poor ICC tourney stats.

I don't need to even respond to the rest of the post where you build up your own logical sequences as to why XYZ is good.

Every win is according to him due to dhonis captaincy and nothing to do with the players. U see his disdain for other players when he says that we would have lost without him?

Ok let us accept that he is soo good. Then what happened to his captaincy in remaining icc tournaments where we lost?

 

[Tusker]

You are all over the place reg a simple discussion. Haha. I said ill luck in ODIs. Not T20Is where ABD has not even been good performance wise and has poor career stats let alone poor ICC tourney stats.

Take a look at (just) the title of this thread .... it is for ALL Formats. Not surprising at all to see how you eaaasily brushed away ABD's T20I performances .... so going by your logic if Dhoni had lesser overall ODI stats stats you would have been willing to acknowledge his Big tournament stats ? Must say you are one hell of a poster who comes with unique logic to defend yor undefendable position.

I don't need to even respond to the rest of the post where you build up your own logical sequences as to why XYZ is good.

Or you got stuck and have no logical responses ? And also maybe you think you are the fairest of Indian fans ever to post

Oh I am sure you would think that. Classic case of looking at reality in a black & white way.

Which is based on reality after having discussed this topic with you numerous times ..... today you went the extra mile .... nothing surprising.

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

57 out of his total 86 innings outside of Asia came at batting at 6 or lower. Let's look at record of 6 or lower for wicket-keepers outside of home in entire history without going into Asia or non-Asia.


View attachment 72280

So we have a grand total of 2 tons when we talk about keeper batsman batting at 6 or lower.


----------------


Now if you want to talk about Asia and non-Asia, here is record of all Asian batsmen in entire history of ODI who batted 6 or lower outside of Asia,

View attachment 72281

Something should jump out here as well. It doesn't show here, but there has been grand total of 2 tons. Kapil 175* & Pathan 105. Both were freak innings.


I threw some data point to put things in perspective here which most posters are missing in this thread. Only two tons by keeper batsmen in entire history outside of home who batted 6 or below. Only two freak tons by Asian batsmen outside Asia who batted 6 or below in entire history.

So in thousands of ODIs by so many we have got 3-4 tons here in this chosen criterion. Should we really criticize a keeper batsmen for not scoring a ton outside Asia who batted mostly at 6 or below?

Many criticism can be targeted towards Dhoni, but this one looks weird to me. Even if you look at his over all record, majority of his tons came when he batted above 6. Simply said, you are going to get very few tons if you bat at 6 or below most of the times and if you start adding filter like alien condition then you are going to get even less tons for anyone batting 6 or below. It should be obvious from the examples given in this post.

Comparing against wicket keepers like Saba Karim and Mark Boucher , what a joke of a comparison Buffet.

This stat is meaningless, you should compare him with batsmen/ bowler/ bits and pieces who came at 6 or lower, even James Faulkner scored a ton against India in India. Symonds, Bevan etc this is like tampered stats

 

[Tusker]

Every win is according to him due to dhonis captaincy and nothing to do with the players. U see his disdain for other players when he says that we would have lost without him?

Ok let us accept that he is soo good. Then what happened to his captaincy in remaining icc tournaments where we lost?

Nobdy said that all the wins were because of MSD's captaincy alone but you must be really blind with hatred to not realize how MSD is a master tactician who gets the best out of his limited bowling attack. If you think we would have won the same amount of matches with any other captain in his place you must really hate him or have unrealistic expectations like SIF and all other MSD bashers.

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Centuries are overrated. How many centuries does Mike Hussey have in ODIs?

Mike Hussey is overrated

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Take a look at (just) the title of this thread .... it is for ALL Formats. Not surprising at all to see how you eaaasily brushed away ABD's T20I performances .... so going by your logic if Dhoni had lesser overall ODI stats stats you would have been willing to acknowledge his Big tournament stats ? Must say you are one hell of a poster who comes with unique logic to defend yor undefendable position.




Or you got stuck and have no logical responses ? And also maybe you think you are the fairest of Indian fans ever to post




Which is based on reality after having discussed this topic with you numerous times ..... today you went the extra mile .... nothing surprising.

LMAO.

Doesn't matter. Take a look at my comment. You responded to my comment. Then what I talk about is what matters cos you respond to it.

Not surprising at all to see how you eaaasily brushed away ABD's T20I performances

There is nothing surprising. Diversion as usual cos the other person didn't even bring it up. By the way, ABD is a solid test bat which Dhoni isn't. Both suck in T20Is. So...........hit a dead end I guess.

Or you got stuck and have no logical responses ? And also maybe you think you are the fairest of Indian fans ever to post

Yet another logical sequence constructed in your head.

 

[Drreddymd]

Nobdy said that all the wins were because of MSD's captaincy alone but you must be really blind with hatred to not realize how MSD is a master tactician who gets the best out of his limited bowling attack. If you think we would have won the same amount of matches with any other captain in his place you must really hate him or have unrealistic expectations like SIF and all other MSD bashers.

Still it is dhoni dhoni dhoni and never about the team. Do u think the bowlers are puppets who depends on the puppeteer dhoni. If they are just puppets he is a bery bad puppeteer because he is not doing a good job with them

 

[Ab Fan]

As a batsmen,

Tests: ABD >> Dhoni
odis: ABD > Dhoni
T20s: Both are poor.. So hardly makes a difference.

As an ODI cricketer, Dhoni >= ABD.

 

[Drreddymd]

Nobdy said that all the wins were because of MSD's captaincy alone but you must be really blind with hatred to not realize how MSD is a master tactician who gets the best out of his limited bowling attack. If you think we would have won the same amount of matches with any other captain in his place you must really hate him or have unrealistic expectations like SIF and all other MSD bashers.

If u r taking credit for their good performances then u have to share the blame too and not throw them under the bus saying they are rubbish

 

[Drreddymd]

As a batsmen,

Tests: ABD >> Dhoni
odis: ABD > Dhoni
T20s: Both are poor.. So hardly makes a difference.

As an ODI cricketer, Dhoni >= ABD.

As a package may be dhoni is greater but not in batting alone which his fans proclaim to be

 

[Ab Fan]

If he isnt a failure according to u then u r standards are very low. He fails in any metric u calculate as a player

You cant claim anyone as a failure when he has played a clutch match winning knock in the World Cup final.

How would you rate Gilly?He avgs 36 in odis and in WCs he has only performed in WC finals

 

[The_Odd_One]

I did not start this thread to bash Dhoni. I consider him the GOAT ODI cricketer due to his batting, keeping, and captaincy.

However, as a batsman alone, I think the perception that he is better than the likes of Tendulkar, Ponting, AB, Gilchrist, Bevan, etc should change.

Dhoni is a type of batsman you would want to have if you have a strong top order which can bring the score close to the target for Dhoni to finish it off. That is why the likes of Tendulkar and Kohli should be rated much higher for doing all the hard work.

 

[Tusker]

LMAO.

Doesn't matter. Take a look at my comment. You responded to my comment. Then what I talk about is what matters cos you respond to it.



There is nothing surprising. Diversion as usual cos the other person didn't even bring it up. By the way, ABD is a solid test bat which Dhoni isn't. Both suck in T20Is. So...........hit a dead end I guess.

Diversion ? Really. You were the one that brought in ABD into the discussion and then got caught pants down. No surprise that you are now trying to shift the discussion to else where

Yet another logical sequence constructed in your head.

Except that only in your head do you perhaps think that the discussion on the first page did not happen and look at your user name ... Sensible ehh ? You cant even think straight and come up with rational arguments to counter. Using luck to justify your opinions must take the cake and on top of that you tried to troll to get out of the jam.

 

[Ab Fan]

As a package may be dhoni is greater but not in batting alone which his fans proclaim to be

Agreed. As a batsmen, Dhoni isn't better than ABD.

In odis, only Sachin, Viv and Ponting are ahead of ABD currently.

 

[The_Odd_One]

You cant claim anyone as a failure when he has played a clutch match winning knock in the World Cup final.

How would you rate Gilly?He avgs 36 in odis and in WCs he has only performed in WC finals

Gilchrist had a different role in his team. How many batsmen of his era had a strike rate of 96? He also performed in all 3 world cup finals that he has played.

 

[Drreddymd]

I did not start this thread to bash Dhoni. I consider him the GOAT ODI cricketer due to his batting, keeping, and captaincy.

However, as a batsman alone, I think the perception that he is better than the likes of Tendulkar, Ponting, AB, Gilchrist, Bevan, etc should change.

Dhoni is a type of batsman you would want to have if you have a strong top order which can bring the score close to the target for Dhoni to finish it off. That is why the likes of Tendulkar and Kohli should be rated much higher for doing all the hard work.

Thats what we are saying all along. He is a support cast and never a main cast but his fans proclaim him to be the best when he has so many holes in his cv

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Agreed. As a batsmen, Dhoni isn't better than ABD.

In odis, only Sachin, Viv and Ponting are ahead of ABD currently.

Kohli and Rohit Sharma are better than ABDV

 

[Tusker]

I did not start this thread to bash Dhoni. I consider him the GOAT ODI cricketer due to his batting, keeping, and captaincy.

However, as a batsman alone, I think the perception that he is better than the likes of Tendulkar, Ponting, AB, Gilchrist, Bevan, etc should change.

The problem is with how you decided that this is a widely held opinion. No one who understands ODI cricket will rate him as a better batsman than those you mentioned excl Bevan ... nor do they compare a pure batsman to a keeper + batsman who bats lower in the batting order

And then you used that absolutely meaningless stat.

 

[anoop]

Yeah tell me one innings he played that is outstanding? His average is padded by not outs. He is a tailender outside of asia

How many tailenders have 34 50's outside asia (asian cricketers) and how many non asian tailenders have such stats in asia.

 

[Drreddymd]

You cant claim anyone as a failure when he has played a clutch match winning knock in the World Cup final.

How would you rate Gilly?He avgs 36 in odis and in WCs he has only performed in WC finals

His 2007 final Knock is a standout one and not a sidekik one. He is an opener and not a finisher and nobody is calling him a finisher and he has balanced records everywhere

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Diversion ? Really. You were the one that brought in ABD into the discussion and then got caught pants down. No surprise that you are now trying to shift the discussion to else where



Except that only in your head do you perhaps think that the discussion on the first page did not happen and look at your user name ... Sensible ehh ? You cant even think straight and come up with rational arguments to counter. Using luck to justify your opinions must take the cake and on top of that you tried to troll to get out of the jam.

Got caught pants down by bringing ABD in even when I was clear I was talking about ODIs and in another comment, referred to him as a choker in T20Is?

Yet another logical sequence constructed.

DING DING DING.

Except that only in your head do you perhaps think that the discussion on the first page did not happen and look at your user name ... Sensible ehh ? You cant even think straight and come up with rational arguments to counter. Using luck to justify your opinions must take the cake and on top of that you tried to troll to get out of the jam.

How to get out of this Dhoni pickle?

Construct your own logic.

Ever noticed how you mention so many times that most people resort to trolling in forums when faced with so called tough questions.

Newsflash bro.

ITS NOT THEM. ITS YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

Only reason people don't engage much is cos they don't bother after a while.

But hey...keep constructing logical sequences in your head.

 

[Ab Fan]

Gilchrist had a different role in his team. How many batsmen of his era had a strike rate of 96? He also performed in all 3 world cup finals that he has played.

He has got a great Strike Rate but his avg is low and that means he wasnt consistent performer. In world cups, he delivered in finals but mostly went missing in other games quite like Dhoni.

Gilly was amazing in his role but so has been Dhoni. You dont expect a lower order to hit centuries in limited form of cricket and that also in a certain condition.

 

[Drreddymd]

How many tailenders have 34 50's outside asia (asian cricketers) and how many non asian tailenders have such stats in asia.

He has 15 50 s and not 34 as u claim to be outside of asia.

 

[Ab Fan]

His 2007 final Knock is a standout one and not a sidekik one. He is an opener and not a finisher and nobody is calling him a finisher and he has balanced records everywhere

Dhoni wasn't a sidekick in 11 WC final and perhaps a second lead to Gambhir in winning the WC. He finished off the game unlike Gambo who got out after all the hard work.

I know Gilly is an opener but I was talking of the claim that Dhoni has failed in ICC tournaments because he performed only once evwn though it was on a grand stage. Gilly hasn't been consistent enough in WCs either.

 

[Drreddymd]

He has got a great Strike Rate but his avg is low and that means he wasnt consistent performer. In world cups, he delivered in finals but mostly went missing in other games quite like Dhoni.

Gilly was amazing in his role but so has been Dhoni. You dont expect a lower order to hit centuries in limited form of cricket and that also in a certain condition.

When he retired in 2007 hardly 4 players averaged above 40 like srt, ganguly, ponting and lara. So 38 for an attacking batsman is outstanding

 

[Chrish]

Must say I am surprised.. but then again he scored 10 centuries total to begin with?

 

[The_Odd_One]

The problem is with how you decided that this is a widely held opinion. No one who understands ODI cricket will rate him as a better batsman than those you mentioned excl Bevan ... nor do they compare a pure batsman to a keeper + batsman who bats lower in the batting order

And then you used that absolutely meaningless stat.

I did not decide anything. Dhoni beat both Hayden and AB in the "GO-Bat" competition held on PP last year. Even against, Tendulkar, 1/4th of the posters voted for Dhoni.

And how is is it meaningless statistic? Someone who is considered an ATG bat does not have a single century outside Asia in any format. FYI, Bevan has a couple of them in Asia batting at the same position.

 

[Ab Fan]

I would like to know the reason why and how Gilly is a better batsmen or cricketer than Dhoni.

Gilly was a wkt-Keeper+ opener.

Dhoni was a wkt-keeper+ finisher+ captain.

Talking about odis only.

 

[Chrish]

This is not surprising Dhoni was never an individual who could come in and up the tempo or win matches on his own. He usually relies on others to do the hard yards.
While some massively overrate him we must be careful of not underrating him too.
He's a good player but not a great one for me. Far too many holes.

If we are talking about ODI, this sentence can't be more incorrect..

 

[Ab Fan]

When he retired in 2007 hardly 4 players averaged above 40 like srt, ganguly, ponting and lara. So 38 for an attacking batsman is outstanding

Gilly has an avg of 35-36 not 38 firstly.

Btw Kallis and his own teammate Hayden averaged 40+ too. So , its 6 not 4.

There are many players who average higher than Gilly from his era not just 4 or 6.

 

[The_Odd_One]

He has got a great Strike Rate but his avg is low and that means he wasnt consistent performer. In world cups, he delivered in finals but mostly went missing in other games quite like Dhoni.

Gilly was amazing in his role but so has been Dhoni. You dont expect a lower order to hit centuries in limited form of cricket and that also in a certain condition.

Gilchrist has other factors to fall back on. Gilchrist was a 50+ averaging batsman in tests for the most part of his career. He performed in 3 world cup finals. He had an unmatched strike rate of 96 in ODIs and scored centuries almost everywhere.

Batting at #5 or #6 is not an excuse. I did not expect him to hit several hundreds at those positions but there is not even a single hundred outside Asia in any format is mind boggling. Yuvraj hit a century in Sydney and Bevan in Sharjah, then why could not Dhoni?

One more thing, how did he hit 10 centuries in Asia but not even one outside Asia?

 

[Kaptan]

He has 15 50 s and not 34 as u claim to be outside of asia.

36 50s outside asia in total (test + ODI)
15 in ODI
21 in Test

 

[Ab Fan]

Gilchrist has other factors to fall back on. Gilchrist was a 50+ averaging batsman in tests for the most part of his career. He performed in 3 world cup finals. He had an unmatched strike rate of 96 in ODIs and scored centuries almost everywhere.

Batting at #5 or #6 is not an excuse. I did not expect him to hit several hundreds at those positions but there is not even a single hundred outside Asia in any format is mind boggling. Yuvraj hit a century in Sydney and Bevan in Sharjah, then why could not Dhoni?

One more thing, how did he hit 10 centuries in Asia but not even one outside Asia?

You are mixing formats. Isn't it?

Nothing wrong to do that but I have already pointed that Dhoni is an ordinary test+ t20 bat and absolutely no comparison to Gilly.

Now the question is

Is Gilly an ATG? YES

Is Dhoni an ATG? NO

But is Gilly an ODI ATG??Yes

Then is Dhoni an ODI ATG?? definitely Yes..

 

[The_Odd_One]

You are mixing formats. Isn't it?

Nothing wrong to do that but I have already pointed that Dhoni is an ordinary test+ t20 bat and absolutely no comparison to Gilly.

Now the question is

Is Gilly an ATG? YES

Is Dhoni an ATG? NO

But is Gilly an ODI ATG??Yes

Then is Dhoni an ODI ATG?? definitely Yes..

This thread is about all formats combined and batting capability only. I have already mentioned that as captain wicket-keeper batsman combo, Dhoni is the GOAT ODI cricketer.

 

[The_Odd_One]

36 50s outside asia in total (test + ODI)
15 in ODI
21 in Test

In 188 innings, that is one in every 6th inning

 

[Chrish]

Surprised to see he has only played 286 OdIs.. for the number of years he has been playing you would think it would be close to 400 by now

 

[Kaptan]

In 188 innings, that is one in every 6th inning

He also came at 4-5 (even at 6?) through out his career.
+ In test I accept that he was nothing special. (still the best WK batsmen in India)

 

[The_Odd_One]

He also came at 4-5 (even at 6?) through out his career.
+ In test I accept that he was nothing special. (still the best WK batsmen in India)

Batsman coming to bat at #5/6, score a 50 once in every 6th inning?

 

[Ab Fan]

This thread is about all formats combined and batting capability only. I have already mentioned that as captain wicket-keeper batsman combo, Dhoni is the GOAT ODI cricketer.

Alright then.

So the answer is simple.He isnt a great test batsmen and ons of the reasons is that he doesn't have a single century outside Asia in the format.

T20s, I dont need to speak of in regards to centuries.

Odis, its hard to get hundreds there batting down the order and that too when considering alien conditions but again I dont think it would be that tough to hit centuries outside Asia if he goes for it given the pitches have hardly anything for Pacers as far as odis are concerned.Dont think its a such a big deal as claimed.

 

[Buffet]

Comparing against wicket keepers like Saba Karim and Mark Boucher , what a joke of a comparison Buffet.

Oh, you ignored the other data in the same post about every single Asian batsmen who batted where Dhoni batted and only 2 tons have come in entire history by Asian batters. If you are going to talk about Asia and non-Asia thene just pick all Asian and see what you find out.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Oh, you ignored the other data in the same post about every single Asian batsmen who batted where Dhoni batted and only 2 tons have come in entire history by Asian batters. If you are going to talk about Asia and non-Asia thene just pick all Asian and see what you find out.

Are those Asian batsman rated as high as Dhoni in ODIs?

 

[Buffet]

Dhoni is a type of batsman you would want to have if you have a strong top order which can bring the score close to the target for Dhoni to finish it off. That is why the likes of Tendulkar and Kohli should be rated much higher for doing all the hard work.

Well, why don't you compare apple to apple. Just take a look at Dhoni performance when he batted 2-5.

Avg of 58 & SR of 92 4700 runs

What do you think his record would have been if he had batted higher up his entire career? Had he scored more runs and better Strike rate or it would have been other way around?

 

[Drreddymd]

Funny how some Dhoni haters have now started to troll, make personal comments and quote wrong stats.

He has 12 test 50 s outside asia. 5 in eng, 3 in nz, 2 in wi, 1 each in aus and sa

 

[Smbhayi]

If he isnt a failure according to u then u r standards are very low. He fails in any metric u calculate as a player

what the. if Dhoni decided to play other teams today he'd be welcomed by most of the team except Saffers. and when Talking about Dhoni you should also looks his keeping skill coz that's his primary role.

 

[Kaptan]

Batsman coming to bat at #5/6, score a 50 once in every 6th inning?

As I said in test he was nothing special as a batsman (but still he was best WK-Batsman in India at that time)
But in ODI's he is definitely ATG as a player.
He has like 21 50's in 86 matches. (in ODI outside asia) 1 in every 4 matches.

 

[Drreddymd]

Well, why don't you compare apple to apple. Just take a look at Dhoni performance when he batted 2-5.

Avg of 58 & SR of 92 4700 runs

What do you think his record would have been if he had batted higher up his entire career? Had he scored more runs and better Strike rate or it would have been other way around?

Nobody is questioning his subcontinent performances right? Nobody u mentioned is considered an atg right?

 

[Kaptan]

36 50s outside asia in total (test + ODI)
15 in ODI
21 in Test

Correction 21 in ODI and 15 in test

 

[Buffet]

Are those Asian batsman rated as high as Dhoni in ODIs?

Point is you guys are talking about a something like ton in non-Asia for batsman who has mostly played at 6 or lower. You are not going to score many tons coming at 6 so picking and talking about this hardly going to prove anything one way or other way. I can start talking about double tons by guys like Rohit Sharma and ask why some other ATG who bats higher up doesn't have it? It's hardly going to make other guy stature less. Reason is, very few have made doubles and same logic applies here as well. That was the point of my post. Ton is a non-issue for a keeper batsman coming at 6 specially if we start picking venues. Hardly matters. Not that I won't criticize Dhoni for not playing big knocks in coutries like SA, but this talk iof ton is a non-issue.

 

[Drreddymd]

As I said in test he was nothing special as a batsman (but still he was best WK-Batsman in India at that time)
But in ODI's he is definitely ATG as a player.
He has like 21 50's in 86 matches. (in ODI outside asia) 1 in every 4 matches.

Where are u getting u r stats from? He has 15 half centuries outside asia and 12 half centuries outside asia in odis and tests respectively

 

[Buffet]

Nobody is questioning his subcontinent performances right?

Thread is not about his performance outside Asia as well. It's about lack of tons outside Asia.