Muslims 'outraged' by billboard that insults prophet Mohammed PBUH

[Hadi Rizvi]

Couple of very nice responses.

Thank you

This forum has actually taught me a lot in recent times.

 

[Justcrazy]

It will be a major problem for someone aiming to be the model for humankind.

Why should it be a problem ? During the era of prophet people accused him of being a soothsayer , a madman , a magician etc , but even his worst enemies of that time never accused him of this. If what he did was unacceptable , they would be first to latch on that.

 

[Black Zero]

Why should it be a problem ? During the era of prophet people accused him of being a soothsayer , a madman , a magician etc , but even his worst enemies of that time never accused him of this. If what he did was unacceptable , they would be first to latch on that.

I am not saying that it was an acceptable or unacceptable act. I would assume that it was acceptable to muslims that's why muslims historians honestly recorded such acts.

But then slavery and other bad acts were also acceptable. Once burning people alive was an acceptable act.

Point is that acceptable act in that era means nothing.

We need to decide if an act is objectively good or not.

We can expect that an objective good act would pass the the test of time.
When prophet of islam told Arabs that "do not bury your new born daughters", it was a good act and it's still valid good act.

If someone marries a child today, someone, plus parents of child would be in jail in canada. And in Australia someone will never have a chance to get a passport.

So this act is objectively bad.

Another thing is that in Medina, he was powerful so there was no need for tolerance to criticism so many critics were assassinated...and this was a clear message for someone thinking about criticism. So lack of criticism during Medina era does not mean that non muslims were impressed by his integrity.
====================================================================

There was a pending response regarding the foundation of karbala (that thread is disappeared so I am responding here)

- Banu Ummayah and bani Hashim had a long history of enmity even before islam.
- I did not mean that Yazid bin Sufyan was a bad guy. I meant that he got leadership roles (first in army and later as a political leader) based on nepotism.
- Badr cannot be foundation as Abu Sufyan was not in Badr. He was leading the carvan, the same carvan muslim wanted to raid and loot. However, path of the carvan was changed so Abu Sufyan reached mecca safely with his carvan good. Muslim fought with the rescue party sent by meccan at Badr,
- let's assume Abu Sufyan was fighting against muslims in Badr and Ali killed him still it would not be the foundation of Karbala as weakening the enemy is just the opposite of giving strength (i.e. foundation)
- conquest of mecca and hunain is the real foundation of karbala as at these junctures defeated banu Ummayah was given a new life by prophet of islam.
- Yes it was Yazid who said similar lines, however it was ibn e Ziad who touched the head with stick (it was in kufa). On the very same day, zainulabideen was stripped in court. Just like jewish boys in Medina were stripped before Ali killed them (after the battle of trench). Luckily zainab begged ibn e Ziad that if ibn e Ziad was a momin, then he should spare zainulabideen. On this, life of zainulabideen was spared.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Actually you did not quote me properly so I only saw your post " Gunn Barrel Straight " comment



TSPK : u know me ? Heck my faith followers will be killed straightaway by saudi authorities.


Hadi: i said "you guys" so, i'm not talking specifically about ahmedis but majority of muslims (sunni, wahhabi etc) and you do trust and share sunni sources so i included you in those ppl as well.



Reply. I take pride in Following Saha e Satta. Alhamdoulillah. But Saha e Satta is not Holy Quran for me. Any Hadith which is against Quranic injunction or principle will be rejected by me. I have given you example in depth. If some Ahadith say that He Pbuh married 6 years old Girl than there are other Ahadith from Saha e Satta which negate it. As I posted in post number 8. So I will go with other sources. Here if I believe that person X is real true Imam Mehdi than I will see what he says about it and as a believer I will go with his opinion believing he is divinely guided.


If your Imam Mehdi AS comes out of cave after 300 years and says that He rejects X Shia hadith aa false and Allah has told him that the truth about this subject is in Y Shia hadith so believe and spread Y and reject X than I am 100 % sure you will accept what your Imam Mehdi As says.


None of Us can go back 1500 years and see with kur eyes the age of Beloved Mother of Believers Hazrat Ayesha RA.



Furthermore there are many Non Ahmadi Ahl e Sunnat scholars who also reject such 6 or 9 years old narrations and have called it Un authentic and unreal and they agree that Ayesha RA was betweem 15 - 21 when she married He Pbuh.





TSPK : if your sources are more authentic than millions you hate would have jumped ths ship to become shia thinking believing oh there ahadees are real ones so are their practices.



Hadi : that's quite arrogant to say the least. If you think of it that way then you can also rephrase it and say: "if islam was authentic and the one true religion then millions of enemies of islam would have jumped ths ship to become muslims thinking believing oh their holy books are real ones so are their practices." do these sentences make any sense now? No, right? I expected a much more mature answer from you instead of this silly counter-point.



TSPK : First of all I appologise for hurting your religious Sentiments. I should have shown patience but I am sorry you asked for it.


I have seen in last 2-3 months that you repeatedly take digs as Saha e Satta. While you have named it crap & B.S in your posts you fail to see the other side of picture and remain highly biased.



I have expressed this many times that be it be Shia or Sunni narrations they were compiled after decades. Mostly after more than 100 years of He Pbuh death so there is a strong possibility of there being 3-4 generations narrating Ahadith and chances of wrong quotations or people misunderstanding the message and the original saying getting distorted.



You pretend as if in last 1500 years only Saha e Satta Ahadith have been criticised while The shia sources are aik dum original 100 % original message and preserved.



While the fact is that both parties have raised countless objections on each other sources.


So there is a need for you to get out of your balloon and accept that neither sources are direct Allah's revelations or Quranic verses and hence some Ahadith may not be authentic on either sides. No need to impart superiority thing over here.


Inter Sects issues arw not comparable with inter religion issues. So don't know from where you brought that example.



TSPK : Do you even know that what we consider as adultery from siha e satta ? For which we recommend koarhay ? And call it zanna ? Illegitimate physical relations ? And what our sources say ? And naoozbillah associate he pbuh and his followers with that dirt too ?


HADI : i literally have no idea what you're saying in these phrases.



TSPK : This was again an example from Literature. We consider Muttah as Zanaa, Adultery. We believe if there was Khilafatt under any of 4 Caliphs and witnesses were presented than Muttah (Zanaa) culprits would have been handed down Koarhayy for this Sin. So that others learn that there is no space for this filth and dirt in Islam and only marriage is allowed. Be it be Abu Bakr or Ali RA Koarhay would have been the Fate.


So we reject all the filthy literature which tries to prove Muttah (Zanaa) (Adultery) as Haalal, legitimate & tenporary marriage. For Us person who do this are Zaani Adulterers.





TSPK : you are acting as if only saha e satta are being criticised. As if no muslim non muslim has any disagreenent with what is written in 4 books considered authentic ahadith books by shia muslims.



Hadi : lagta hai zyada mirchain lag gayin silly point again. If you think in this way then even the quran gets criticsed by muslims/non-muslims alike.Does that mean that its incorrect naoozobillah?



TSPK : Its not mirchein. You were just reolaying same tape over and over so I had to shlw you the way to look through own literature too, rather beating Saha e Satta drum in every thread.



Hadi : Try to answer my question instead of these type of counter points. Try making a constructive argument instead of being hell-bent on disapproving shia sources.



TSPK: I do but Aapka Kaa-aan Chitta he rehna hai so it won't help you.


TSPK : that is why i said indivisial bias. Get out of your ballon and accept this hardcore fact that all ahadith (whether sunni or shia complilations) are not in line with quran and are not verses of holy quran and thise having contradictions can be should be rejected.


Hadi : in case you didn't know, shia rely heavily on quran and its tafsir and don't give ahadees the kind of status that you guys (anyone who follows sihah sitta) give to your hadees books. For you quranic verse=ahadees for us quranic verses>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ahadees since there is no divine promise of hadees being protected from alterations we rely on ahadees only when we're reasonably sure of their reliability staight forward.



TSPK : This is your Assumption about Me or my faith followers. It has no substance. For Us Quran is Supreme.

Yes I know very well How precious it is for you. When I quoted Quranic verses whereby Allah calls some of his Prophets as Divinely Appoinfed Aa-emma Imam establishing from Quran that any Divinely appointed Imam will be Prophet as in the History of mankind than you said Khuda Hafiz to me.


I also presented 7:35 verses asking what It means ? And you dif not reply me.


I asked you about Surah e Nissa verse 69 what it means ? SUrah e Fateha Inaamaat what those are which you ask ? And you did not answer me.



Than from Quran I asked is God biased, unsure that He has seperate principles for different Prophets wrt whom to consider as People of the Household ? And you neither answer from Quran nor you did say Yes He is biased unsure confused or No He is not biased unsure and has same principles.



When I posted Quranic use of words Tawaffi, Mutawaffi, Mutawafeeka, Rafa, Rafayoka and showed you that why there is seperate selective different translation of these verses for Jesus As only ? Asked you to prove that there is no inconsistency from Shia trsnslations and at all places these words are translated similarly than you did not post a single evidence and insteaf it was you who jumped fo Ahadith.




So Yes in future only debate with me from Holy Quran and No other place. Only Holy Quran and in only What do you know about Islam thread.




Since this billboard thread is about allegations so My POV is in post number 8. You can disagree with it 100 %. I won't have any issue at all.



[MENTION=139075]Hadi Rizvi[/MENTION]

 

[Madplayer]

The billboard would only incite hatred. Whats the point of it really? If they claim these things, didnt the 90 year old st. Joseph put forward a proposal to marry a very young (11 year old?) Mary according to Christian traditions? Why incite hatred using traditions which were in place 1000s of years ago? Same for anti-sharia march. As if someone is ready to impose sharia in America.

All Abrahamic religions preach more or less the same thing. Most differences wrt creed are in terms of definition and status of God. Islam, if anything, is an upgrade over Christianity with comparatively more modern and practical instructions to live life. Some of These fools think Christianity and Judaism preach human rights as per the modern world while Islam is barbaric. If put into practice, their beliefs would cause chaos and war in today's world. Just because christians, especially americans, have stopped practicing their religion, they believe christianity is peaceful.

Its better to live and let live and not provoke people. Perhaps some people get a kick by riling others up which tells a lot about their sorry lives.

 

[Justcrazy]

I am not saying that it was an acceptable or unacceptable act. I would assume that it was acceptable to muslims that's why muslims historians honestly recorded such acts.

But then slavery and other bad acts were also acceptable. Once burning people alive was an acceptable act.

Point is that acceptable act in that era means nothing.

We need to decide if an act is objectively good or not.

We can expect that an objective good act would pass the the test of time.
When prophet of islam told Arabs that "do not bury your new born daughters", it was a good act and it's still valid good act.

If someone marries a child today, someone, plus parents of child would be in jail in canada. And in Australia someone will never have a chance to get a passport.

So this act is objectively bad.

Another thing is that in Medina, he was powerful so there was no need for tolerance to criticism so many critics were assassinated...and this was a clear message for someone thinking about criticism. So lack of criticism during Medina era does not mean that non muslims were impressed by his integrity.
====================================================================

Slavery was ingrained part of society much before Islam. Suddenly something cannot be stopped , Islam made laws to phase out slavery and it was encouraged throughout to free slaves through various means.

Prophet married Aisha RA because she was shown in his dream , dreams of prophets are revelations. It was one off thing , it is not that Islam says if you get married someone of that age you are doing something praise worthy act.

Islam makes a point that people respect and follow all the rules of the country they live in , until that goes against command of Allah swt.

We are not supposed to do whatever the prophet did , but what he commanded to do.

 

[enkidu_]

It's quite simple actually.


There came no Prophet who wasn't mocked, ridiculed and abused. This included Muhammad Pbuh, Jesus Pbuh & Moses Pbuh. Nothing new. All routine.

Whether they make Cartoons or Films Mohammad Pbuh status would not be affected one bit.

You have to understand their frustration. They insult Muhammad pbuh more than they glorify the Christ nowadays (considering he himself refused any glory, preferring to worship God), why do you think so ? Hilaire Belloc, unanimously deemed as one of the greatest English-speaking Christian intellectuals of the last century, with GK Chesterton and CS Lewis, in his Great Heresies (where he dedicates a whole chapter to Islam), resumes the whole matter:

The Crusades failed. Their failure is the major tragedy in the history of our struggle against Islam, that is, against Asia - against the East.

^the struggle against Islam is inscribed in the DNA of Europe, which is merely a struggle against the old seats of world civilization, unleashed since Alexander the Great, and then followed by the Roman Empire, the first empire with global aspirations, to which the children of the once Germanic barbarians (then seen with contempt by the vintage Romans, and who actually destroyed their civilization) claim genealogy.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

You have to understand their frustration. They insult Muhammad pbuh more than they glorify the Christ nowadays (considering he himself refused any glory, preferring to worship God), why do you think so ? Hilaire Belloc, unanimously deemed as one of the greatest English-speaking Christian intellectuals of the last century, with GK Chesterton and CS Lewis, in his Great Heresies (where he dedicates a whole chapter to Islam), resumes the whole matter:



^the struggle against Islam is inscribed in the DNA of Europe, which is merely a struggle against the old seats of world civilization, unleashed since Alexander the Great, and then followed by the Roman Empire, the first empire with global aspirations, to which the children of the once Germanic barbarians (then seen with contempt by the vintage Romans, and who actually destroyed their civilization) claim genealogy.

How I see this is that :


1. The Jews mocked Prophet Jesus As because they thought that He is an Impostor and not a Prophet. They were waiting for a Messiah from the Davidic line who will be Jewish King. Jesus AS was born without father and majority of them thought that No How can such a man be King ? Only the very righteous Jews were guided by Allah that He indeed is the same Messiah.


2. Than Christians ? They believed in Crucifixtion of Jesus AS. They believed that Jesus As was the last Prophet and He will come back as a Saviour from Heaven in the last. Concept of Trinity too prevailed.

When they say Mohammad Pbuh who was biologically born on earth and than claimed to be a Prophet the majority of them mocked He Pbuh calling him a Fake Prophet and a Fake Messiah as they had a belief than Jesus As will be sent again as the last Messiah. Again very few righteous Christians were guided by Allah and they accepted He Pbuh as the same Prophet about whom Moses and Jesus had prophecised.



But there would not come to them a prophet except that they used to ridicule him. (43:7)

2.

 

[Black Zero]

Slavery was ingrained part of society much before Islam. Suddenly something cannot be stopped , Islam made laws to phase out slavery and it was encouraged throughout to free slaves through various means.

Prophet married Aisha RA because she was shown in his dream , dreams of prophets are revelations. It was one off thing , it is not that Islam says if you get married someone of that age you are doing something praise worthy act.

Islam makes a point that people respect and follow all the rules of the country they live in , until that goes against command of Allah swt.

We are not supposed to do whatever the prophet did , but what he commanded to do.

I am sorry but you did not address any of my points while I replied to you point-wise.

I would take that you could not defend the statement that "nothing's wrong with marrying a 6/9 year child"

 

[Madplayer]

I am sorry but you did not address any of my points while I replied to you point-wise.

I would take that you could not defend the statement that "nothing's wrong with marrying a 6/9 year child"

First of all there are doubts regarding the age being 6 or 9. Second of all you are taking about 1500 years old incident when these things were a tradition. Like i mentioned earlier, st. Joseph proposed to marry the mother of Jesus as per christian tradition. She was just around 11 that time iirc and he was around 90 years of age. There are similar examples in hindu and jewish traditions too. Third of all every act of Prophet was done to show what is permissible (what options are open if circumstances dictate terms). Fourth of all , permissible doesnt mean necessary or obligatory and in today's world we can choose to ignore it because it isnt compatible with the society, traditions have changed and our thinking has changed too. I am not a scholar though, maybe someone could explain it better.

 

[Justcrazy]

I am sorry but you did not address any of my points while I replied to you point-wise.

I would take that you could not defend the statement that "nothing's wrong with marrying a 6/9 year child"

What is there to defend ? Aisha RA was engaged to someone even before being married to the prophet .

If you go back maybe 2 or 3 centuries , you will legal age of marriage was much lower in several non - Muslim countries. Prophets are also Humans and live in there own times .

Also I mentioned that this was one off thing . There are certain exceptions with prophets. For example prophet Muhammad had 9 wives , where as for other men only 4 was allowed , Solomon had hundreds of wives .

 

[Heisenberg]

First of all there are doubts regarding the age being 6 or 9. Second of all you are taking about 1500 years old incident when these things were a tradition. Like i mentioned earlier, st. Joseph proposed to marry the mother of Jesus as per christian tradition. She was just around 11 that time iirc and he was around 90 years of age. There are similar examples in hindu and jewish traditions too. Third of all every act of Prophet was done to show what is permissible (what options are open if circumstances dictate terms). Fourth of all , permissible doesnt mean necessary or obligatory and in today's world we can choose to ignore it because it isnt compatible with the society, traditions have changed and our thinking has changed too. I am not a scholar though, maybe someone could explain it better.

The evidence points towards it being 6 and 9. 'Evidence' for anything else would be thrown out of the window if it was anything else because it is not authentic.

You are most probably arguing with a guy who is neither Christian or a Jew so it is irrelevant.

It should not be permissible. We are talking about a child whose brain hasn't developed fully.

 

[Tusker]

this type of statement clearly is to antagonise Muslims and draw out a reaction. But any type of violent reaction would be exactly what they want then they can paint Muslims as people who don't accept the right to free speech that is enshrined in the U.S Constitution.

In the U.S Holocaust denial is allowed but in a lot of Europe its a criminal.offense.

Freedom of Speech laws are a lot more liberal.

A lot of this stuff they are getting from Sahih Bukhari and the Sirat ul Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq which has a lot of stuff in it that cast aspersions on the character of the Prophet in the way that most Muslims are taught about the way he was.

While i think this was done in poor taste and to get a reaction. Its their right protected under Law. And i prefer a society where religious figures can be mocked and satirised is better than one with blasphemy laws.

Have you ever thought why they don't antagonize other religions ?

 

[Heisenberg]

Google Imam Bukhari Rehmatullah.


When was He born ? When did he compile Bukhari ?

Have some perspective.


Imam Bukhari RT was born 132 years after the Death of Hazrat Ayesha RA and you are assuming as if Ayesha RA told this to Imam Bukhari and he noted it down. There will be atlesst 4 generations between them.



Secondly who knows that after Bukhari was compiled how and when it got adulterated ? Do you have have any Bukhari in World atm which has been tested by radiocarbon testing and is proven to be 1300 years old manuscript ? ?


Furthermore We have Bukhari versions punlished in early 19th century and Hadith scholars. Those mention Messiah of Later age personality physique complexion height hair texture to be totally different to Jesus Christ AS. Now what did the Islamic Scholars do ? They edited the online versions of Bukhari and copy pasted Jesus AS physical attributes with Messiah of Later age.


Does this mean that 300-400 years old Manuscipts present in Ancient Muslim world libraries should be thrown ? Online versions are original ?


Yasir Qadhi's argument is as good as Christians where they said that a girl is eligible for marriage at 3 yesrs 1 month age as she achieved puberty than. Does it make any sense ?


Is there any other evidence suggesting Companions of He Pbuh or Caliphs married 6 or 9 years old girls ?


I have no doubt at Imam Bukhari's intent and I regard him very highly but


1. I have no evidence that in first hand written Bukhari these 6 or 9 years old Narration was mentioned or it got added yesrs or centuries later ?


2. Why did you completely Ignore discussions regarding Hazrat Ayesha RA elder Sister RA and age calculation based on other narrations ?


3. If you think that marrying a 6 or 9 years old girl in any day and age is wrong than why do you believe He Pbuh did it and He Pbuh was right ? Or are you a borderline Agnostic or Athiest ?

If I think it's wrong which I do think than I am not at all willing to consider He Pbuh a good man and considering him a Prophet is even out of contention for me.


Mohammad Pbuh is the Best of the Best for Me and without Him Pbuh my life would be miserable so I won't want to breath. I have read " Life of Muhammad Pbuh " & " Muhammad The Seal of Prophets "


So whenever Islamophobes or Non believers would raise this question My Answer will be what I posted in Post 8 and if you use twitter or Facebook than you would see thousands of non believers saying Thanks at this response and accepting that they are convinced and they do not raise any questions on this subject saying there concerns have been adressed.


In my free time, I read many forums especially Islamic forums. My Shia muslim brothers post screenshots from Online Ahadith sources stating Person X mentions that I heard from UBWXYZ that He saw He Pbuh doing this in a Garden. Than on Facebook there are videos of Ex Muslims where they mention Ahadees which absolutely defame He Pbuh and are so so much blasphemous. If anybody believes those to be true than He will immediately leave Islam If He is honest.


So ?


If you have the audacity to defend that Ohhhhh its Bukhari or Sahi Muslim so whatever written is absolute fact, truth and is ahthentic than my friend Go ahead. No problem.


But for me ? No. Not at all and not at any Cost.



Who knows Hypocrites or Enemies entered these Ahadith ?


I think it's disgusting and unjust to even call thess narrations as Ahadith (sayings or practices of He Pbuh)



It's not just Saha e Satta. I am a young Man unmarried atm and I refrain from doing many things thinking they are unislamic as per Quran, Sunnat and sayings of He Pbuh but without naming the books there are some which refer some highly putrid actions to He Pbuh saying He did this and it's halaal allowed legit (So called Ahadith books)


If I follow them my worldly life will have lots of comfort joy entertainment. So what stops me ?


I reject them as false while others they follow them.



And don't get me started on Dajjal's donkey, Pig murderer, Churches Cross destroyer Blood Thirsty Mass murderer Messiah narrations.



Rationality & logic is very very important.



Once again I have no objection if you chose to believe on 6 or 9 years old narrations. That's your choice.

1) why do you think they weren't written down much earlier. If it was the war and chaos, was that more important to them than writing down something that would obviously shape the religion? These people lived with the prophet and learned from him. Why were disagreements more important to them than the religion getting to future generations?

2) maybe it was adulterated but this is our source now. Surely God wouldn't allow that anyway. We have what we have now.

3) how can you assume stuff got added centuries later. How can you be sure about anything at all though?

4) the other age calculations are based on weak hadith. That can not take precedence over authentic and sahih with multiple narrators and in multiple books.

5) my belief is irrelevant.

6) maybe people believed it on twitter and Facebook but the post contains blatant misrepresentation. The main point of the argument is that you cannot take a narrator seriously because he lost his memory and no other narrators of this information exist. Except in reality the person in question has narrated it herself and other narrators exist too. So the argument has no legs to stand on and is deceitful. Not to mention a popular muslim website refutes this very argument. I would rather they didn't but maybe it helps them in someway.

7) who do you think made up these hadith which your shia friend posts? Why do you think Hadith would be adulterated. Considering Islam takes great pride in being an unadulterated message of God, when did this adulteration happen and why did no one stop it? Who did it?

8) tabari had no problem with the age for instance. He commented on it as if it was normal. Maybe it was normal for them. How's that for a possibility?

Thank you and sorry if I disrespected you anywhere.

 

[Heisenberg]

Have you ever thought why they don't antagonize other religions ?

Oh man you haven't heard the Jesus jokes

 

[Black Zero]

What is there to defend ? Aisha RA was engaged to someone even before being married to the prophet .

If you go back maybe 2 or 3 centuries , you will legal age of marriage was much lower in several non - Muslim countries. Prophets are also Humans and live in there own times .

Also I mentioned that this was one off thing . There are certain exceptions with prophets. For example prophet Muhammad had 9 wives , where as for other men only 4 was allowed , Solomon had hundreds of wives .

- Billboard is setup now and not 2 or 3 centuries back. You have to defend as per today's standard, cause humanity has moved on and shed ways of ignorance. They accepted they were wrong . Muslims should also accept these wrongdoings as mistakes as a first step.

- Non muslims have no reason to care about Muslim theology, only actions will be judged and muslims would have to back every action with secular standards if they want respect in this civilized world.

And if someone thinks that there is a special category for founder of Islam and still insists that he was the perfect human being. Then do not blame others if other consider him a person with questionable morality.

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Archaeology has now proved that David and Solomon ruled a very small area (size of small chak of Punjab), Solomon kingdom actually never existed.

Glorious kingdom, Wives and Armies are pure fantasies written by bibble authors.


Read Israel's books if you can:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Finkelstein

"Israel Finkelstein is an Israeli archaeologist and academic. He is the Jacob M. Alkow Professor of the Archaeology of Israel in the Bronze and Iron Ages at Tel Aviv University Finkelstein is widely regarded as a leading scholar in the archaeology of the Levant and a foremost applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history."

However numerous wives and female slaves of founder of Islam is a historical fact, which needs to analysed thoroughly.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Slavery was ingrained part of society much before Islam. Suddenly something cannot be stopped , Islam made laws to phase out slavery and it was encouraged throughout to free slaves through various means.

Prophet married Aisha RA because she was shown in his dream , dreams of prophets are revelations. It was one off thing , it is not that Islam says if you get married someone of that age you are doing something praise worthy act.

Islam makes a point that people respect and follow all the rules of the country they live in , until that goes against command of Allah swt.

We are not supposed to do whatever the prophet did , but what he commanded to do.

I am sorry but you did not address any of my points while I replied to you point-wise.

I would take that you could not defend the statement that "nothing's wrong with marrying a 6/9 year child"

First of all there are doubts regarding the age being 6 or 9. Second of all you are taking about 1500 years old incident when these things were a tradition. Like i mentioned earlier, st. Joseph proposed to marry the mother of Jesus as per christian tradition. She was just around 11 that time iirc and he was around 90 years of age. There are similar examples in hindu and jewish traditions too. Third of all every act of Prophet was done to show what is permissible (what options are open if circumstances dictate terms). Fourth of all , permissible doesnt mean necessary or obligatory and in today's world we can choose to ignore it because it isnt compatible with the society, traditions have changed and our thinking has changed too. I am not a scholar though, maybe someone could explain it better.

What is there to defend ? Aisha RA was engaged to someone even before being married to the prophet .

If you go back maybe 2 or 3 centuries , you will legal age of marriage was much lower in several non - Muslim countries. Prophets are also Humans and live in there own times .

Also I mentioned that this was one off thing . There are certain exceptions with prophets. For example prophet Muhammad had 9 wives , where as for other men only 4 was allowed , Solomon had hundreds of wives .

The evidence points towards it being 6 and 9. 'Evidence' for anything else would be thrown out of the window if it was anything else because it is not authentic.

You are most probably arguing with a guy who is neither Christian or a Jew so it is irrelevant.

It should not be permissible. We are talking about a child whose brain hasn't developed fully.

1) why do you think they weren't written down much earlier. If it was the war and chaos, was that more important to them than writing down something that would obviously shape the religion? These people lived with the prophet and learned from him. Why were disagreements more important to them than the religion getting to future generations?

2) maybe it was adulterated but this is our source now. Surely God wouldn't allow that anyway. We have what we have now.

3) how can you assume stuff got added centuries later. How can you be sure about anything at all though?

4) the other age calculations are based on weak hadith. That can not take precedence over authentic and sahih with multiple narrators and in multiple books.

5) my belief is irrelevant.

6) maybe people believed it on twitter and Facebook but the post contains blatant misrepresentation. The main point of the argument is that you cannot take a narrator seriously because he lost his memory and no other narrators of this information exist. Except in reality the person in question has narrated it herself and other narrators exist too. So the argument has no legs to stand on and is deceitful. Not to mention a popular muslim website refutes this very argument. I would rather they didn't but maybe it helps them in someway.

7) who do you think made up these hadith which your shia friend posts? Why do you think Hadith would be adulterated. Considering Islam takes great pride in being an unadulterated message of God, when did this adulteration happen and why did no one stop it? Who did it?

8) tabari had no problem with the age for instance. He commented on it as if it was normal. Maybe it was normal for them. How's that for a possibility?

Thank you and sorry if I disrespected you anywhere.

- Billboard is setup now and not 2 or 3 centuries back. You have to defend as per today's standard, cause humanity has moved on and shed ways of ignorance. They accepted they were wrong . Muslims should also accept these wrongdoings as mistakes as a first step.

- Non muslims have no reason to care about Muslim theology, only actions will be judged and muslims would have to back every action with secular standards if they want respect in this civilized world.

And if someone thinks that there is a special category for founder of Islam and still insists that he was the perfect human being. Then do not blame others if other consider him a person with questionable morality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archaeology has now proved that David and Solomon ruled a very small area (size of small chak of Punjab), Solomon kingdom actually never existed.

Glorious kingdom, Wives and Armies are pure fantasies written by bibble authors.


Read Israel's books if you can:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Finkelstein

"Israel Finkelstein is an Israeli archaeologist and academic. He is the Jacob M. Alkow Professor of the Archaeology of Israel in the Bronze and Iron Ages at Tel Aviv University Finkelstein is widely regarded as a leading scholar in the archaeology of the Levant and a foremost applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history."

However numerous wives and female slaves of founder of Islam is a historical fact, which needs to analysed thoroughly.

Black Zero Na Tung ker yaar Just Crazy ko

Three Evidences are presented in this from Ahadith and All 3 point out that the Age of marriage was 14 to 19-20. Nothing can be said with certainty since Birth Certificates did not exist in those days and it's almost 1500 years old.


Black Zero don't ignore that Prophet Mohammed Pbuh was offered leadership roles plus beautiful girls in marriage but such was his character that He did not accept any offers.


Black Zero watch the video and than let me know your grievances.

 

[Justcrazy]

- Billboard is setup now and not 2 or 3 centuries back. You have to defend as per today's standard, cause humanity has moved on and shed ways of ignorance. They accepted they were wrong . Muslims should also accept these wrongdoings as mistakes as a first step.

- Non muslims have no reason to care about Muslim theology, only actions will be judged and muslims would have to back every action with secular standards if they want respect in this civilized world.

And if someone thinks that there is a special category for founder of Islam and still insists that he was the perfect human being. Then do not blame others if other consider him a person with questionable morality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archaeology has now proved that David and Solomon ruled a very small area (size of small chak of Punjab), Solomon kingdom actually never existed.

Glorious kingdom, Wives and Armies are pure fantasies written by bibble authors.


Read Israel's books if you can:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Finkelstein

"Israel Finkelstein is an Israeli archaeologist and academic. He is the Jacob M. Alkow Professor of the Archaeology of Israel in the Bronze and Iron Ages at Tel Aviv University Finkelstein is widely regarded as a leading scholar in the archaeology of the Levant and a foremost applicant of archaeological data in reconstructing biblical history."

However numerous wives and female slaves of founder of Islam is a historical fact, which needs to analysed thoroughly.

How can you defend by today standard , something that happened way back ? That thing was perfectly acceptable at that time.

 

[Heisenberg]

How can you defend by today standard , something that happened way back ? That thing was perfectly acceptable at that time.

Because Islam talks about being for all times

 

[Black Zero]

Black Zero Na Tung ker yaar Just Crazy ko

Three Evidences are presented in this from Ahadith and All 3 point out that the Age of marriage was 14 to 19-20. Nothing can be said with certainty since Birth Certificates did not exist in those days and it's almost 1500 years old.


Black Zero don't ignore that Prophet Mohammed Pbuh was offered leadership roles plus beautiful girls in marriage but such was his character that He did not accept any offers.


Black Zero watch the video and than let me know your grievances.

- I will watch video if you tell me that you are in the video. I engage in this discussion for fun only so more interested in posters views.
- I think I understand JusCrazy's line of argument, but i am trying to convey to him that that line of argument would not work today.
- I tend to agree with you that age could be 12-14 (but no more and 14 is still a child and a perfect man would definitely avoid this situation). As, I follow western scholars of Quran and Islam and they do not have much confidence in narrations of Aisha. There could be two reasons for the recorded 6-9 years:

1- People (especially women) lie about their age.
2- Political motive


However, sadly there are few other such incidents. where clear interest is shown in children.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I heard and "read" about "offers of beautiful girls", could you please pass me reference of seerat ibne hisham, tibqaat or of Tabri

Prophet of Islam wanted to marry daughter of Abu Talib, but Abu Talib declined.
Father of Khadija, Khuwaylid, was so sad and angry when Khadiga married to prophet of Islam.


Meccans were not specially impressed by his character.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadr_ibn_al-Harith

 

[Black Zero]

How can you defend by today standard , something that happened way back ? That thing was perfectly acceptable at that time.

Action of Hussain is a great example of a good deed.
No one can question this act even in billion years.
and hopefully people of future will still quote Hussain's martyrdom and take inspiration.

so you see, good actions are generally timeless, however bad actions are not.

As soon as you say that action x was ok in year y, but not in year z. Then people of years are right to think that action x was wrong.

above was my last attempt to get my point through

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Because Islam talks about being for all times

Did you watch the Video ?


1. So, it is reported that He Pbuh marriage with Ayesha RA took place in 1st or 2nd A.H right ?

And after Hijra the Battle of Badar and Ohad took place and again as per Saha e Satta Hazrat Ayesha RA took part in the battles and helped the Muslims.


It is reported again in Saha e Satta that a 14 years old Boy came and said Hazur Pbuh I eant to fight and He Pbuh said No you are not allowed you are too young. So at time if you take Ayesha RA age at marriage 6 (alleged) than she sould have been 9 than so How He Pbuh allowed a 9 years old Girl to fight but did not allow 14 years Old boy to do so ? This tells that Atleast Ayesha RA would have been 15-16 and that's sas she was permitted and not 9.



2. Similarly ever heard about Ibn e Kathir ?


He reported aswell as 2 other accounts that Hazrat Asma died at the age of hundred in 73 AH. She was 10 years elder than Hazrat Ayesha RA her younger sister.

Dirong Hijra She was 28 so Ayesha RA was 18 and if Marriage took place in 2 AH than Hazrat Ayesha was 19 years old than and not 6 or 9.


3. Hazrat Ayesha RA narrates that when Surah e Qamar was revealed to He Pbuh than Hazrat Ayesha RA was a young girl. This happened 9 years before Hijra. Now if you or anyone says that at the time of Marriage Ayesha RA was 6 or 9 Naoozbillah than at the time of Revelation of Surah e Qamar would not have even born yet.



There are enough evidences to say that 6 or 9 years narrations are not Correct.


Furthermore this goes againsy the Character of He Pbuh.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

- I will watch video if you tell me that you are in the video. I engage in this discussion for fun only so more interested in posters views.
- I think I understand JusCrazy's line of argument, but i am trying to convey to him that that line of argument would not work today.
- I tend to agree with you that age could be 12-14 (but no more and 14 is still a child and a perfect man would definitely avoid this situation). As, I follow western scholars of Quran and Islam and they do not have much confidence in narrations of Aisha. There could be two reasons for the recorded 6-9 years:

1- People (especially women) lie about their age.
2- Political motive


However, sadly there are few other such incidents. where clear interest is shown in children.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I heard and "read" about "offers of beautiful girls", could you please pass me reference of seerat ibne hisham, tibqaat or of Tabri

Prophet of Islam wanted to marry daughter of Abu Talib, but Abu Talib declined.
Father of Khadija, Khuwaylid, was so sad and angry when Khadiga married to prophet of Islam.


Meccans were not specially impressed by his character.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadr_ibn_al-Harith

Nah. There is enough Evidence to Suggest the Age Range to be 14-19.


Read my Last Post to Heidelberg for Summary.


Nah. 3 Guys are of the age of my Chacha and 1 can be considered as highly senior Elder brother



Yaar Mujaheda kerein aap bilkul aafaaqa hojaey ga Hunn Taynuu Rabb he Matt dey Sakta Aey Bus


Light sa Ilhaam, Kashfi Nazaara. Kuch din Dua e Istikhara ker k raat jaageeay Tahajjud k liye. Bus Khuda pe Eemaan bil yaqeen hogaya tou everything will fall in place. Until you don't have that experience of having living relationship, interaction, communication with him no matter how many books you read nothing will change. Never. And since it doesn't ecist in 3 donensional state. It's not physical entity so you will never have scientific evidence for it.


Bus mein tou chah raha hun k babarkat maheena hai aapko Lailatul Qadar naseeb hojaey. Saal se dua mein laga hun. Sub kayaa palatt jaey gee. Per aap thori mehnat tou ker lein. Kuch qadam uski rah mein. Thola Shaa Mujaheda.

 

[Black Zero]

Nah. There is enough Evidence to Suggest the Age Range to be 14-19.


Read my Last Post to Heidelberg for Summary.


Nah. 3 Guys are of the age of my Chacha and 1 can be considered as highly senior Elder brother



Yaar Mujaheda kerein aap bilkul aafaaqa hojaey ga Hunn Taynuu Rabb he Matt dey Sakta Aey Bus


Light sa Ilhaam, Kashfi Nazaara. Kuch din Dua e Istikhara ker k raat jaageeay Tahajjud k liye. Bus Khuda pe Eemaan bil yaqeen hogaya tou everything will fall in place. Until you don't have that experience of having living relationship, interaction, communication with him no matter how many books you read nothing will change. Never. And since it doesn't ecist in 3 donensional state. It's not physical entity so you will never have scientific evidence for it.


Bus mein tou chah raha hun k babarkat maheena hai aapko Lailatul Qadar naseeb hojaey. Saal se dua mein laga hun. Sub kayaa palatt jaey gee. Per aap thori mehnat tou ker lein. Kuch qadam uski rah mein. Thola Shaa Mujaheda.

Sorry, I am not good at reading roman urdu.

 

[Madplayer]

The evidence points towards it being 6 and 9. 'Evidence' for anything else would be thrown out of the window if it was anything else because it is not authentic.

You are most probably arguing with a guy who is neither Christian or a Jew so it is irrelevant.

It should not be permissible. We are talking about a child whose brain hasn't developed fully.

Thats why i said in today's world we can choose to ignore it as it isnt something obligatory.

And bro, the era you live in dictates your beliefs. If you were alive thousands of years ago you would probably have been married to a 9 year old too and would have defended it with every breath of yours. Same goes for me and most others. Today our customs and scientific knowledge doesnt support it. 1000s of years from now, you and i dont know what changes would take place and what primitive beliefs would be revived. It all depends on how the world as a whole (material and moral) changes.

Its absolutely pointless to take jibes at each other by bringing up incidents which took place so many years ago when they arent even deemed obligatory.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] well islam is obvs targeted because of islamic extremism in the west and also because these cartoons or caricatures do tend to bring out violence responses from within Muslim communities worldwide. Which just plays into these guys hands. They want some radical to try to kill someone or attack them and then they can say look Muslims dont respect the constitution.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] well islam is obvs targeted because of islamic extremism in the west and also because these cartoons or caricatures do tend to bring out violence responses from within Muslim communities worldwide. Which just plays into these guys hands. They want some radical to try to kill someone or attack them and then they can say look Muslims dont respect the constitution.

With respect, how likely is it that the billboard will produce a violent reaction from Muslims in the USA? Absolutely minuscule I would say, the Muslim population there is very peaceful by all accounts. The Americans only real hostile interaction with Muslims is in the various wars in the middle east and other Muslim countries.

 

[Adil_94]

@Cpt.Rishwat the chances are low but it has happened before when a group organised a Draw Muhammad day contest and two gunmen came and tried to halt the event and i think a couple of people were killed. With the current rhetoric around Muslims in America thats the last thing they need. All it takes is one or two radical individuals and then things will really kick off.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

@Cpt.Rishwat the chances are low but it has happened before when a group organised a Draw Muhammad day contest and two gunmen came and tried to halt the event and i think a couple of people were killed. With the current rhetoric around Muslims in America thats the last thing they need. All it takes is one or two radical individuals and then things will really kick off.

An assassination attempt can never be ruled out as it only takes one person, but since no one knows who is behind the billboard, who would be targeted for assassination? It's just not big enough news or specific enough for anyone to go to the trouble of organising any sort of response like that in my opinion. If it was in Europe I could see your point maybe, but the US? Unlikely.

 

[Adil_94]

@Cpt.Rishwat idk if the organisation behind it have their details on the billboard. Im guessing if they dont it wont be hard to find who is behind it.

These type of things will get shared on social media so will reach a wider audience and with americas gun control laws it takes one enraged guy with a gun and something could happen. But the chances of it happening are very low in the U.S esp under the current climate would be catastrophic for U.S Muslim community.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There's more chance of provoking a violent reaction in Muslim countries to be honest, with social media it could be used to spark a reaction if it took hold and more people became aware of it over there where people wouldn't understand the dual concepts of free speech and hate speech co-mingling in America.

 

[Bilal7]

Let's try our best to take stuff like this down but the last thing any brother (or sister) should do is respond with violence. The Prophet (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon him) was the best human being to ever walk this earth. Allah ta'ala Himself says this and if some bigoted, ignorant, failures in life disagree and instead go out of their way to insult him, we should do exactly what the Prophet himself did when he was called a whole host of hurtful things by his own tribesmen. Be the best Muslims we can be and let the greatness of our beloved Nabi be displayed through our actions.

Allah ta'ala has created Hell for a reason. We all know what will be the end result of all these haters making merry at the moment. May God grant them guidance though and allow them to repent for their actions before they die. Otherwise, it will not be pretty.

 

[Bilal7]

Because Islam talks about being for all times

Yes, which is why the Prophet (PBUH) married a number of women, with different social status, ages, etc.

 

[Pakpak]

Let's try our best to take stuff like this down but the last thing any brother (or sister) should do is respond with violence. The Prophet (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon him) was the best human being to ever walk this earth. Allah ta'ala Himself says this and if some bigoted, ignorant, failures in life disagree and instead go out of their way to insult him, we should do exactly what the Prophet himself did when he was called a whole host of hurtful things by his own tribesmen. Be the best Muslims we can be and let the greatness of our beloved Nabi be displayed through our actions.

Allah ta'ala has created Hell for a reason. We all know what will be the end result of all these haters making merry at the moment. May God grant them guidance though and allow them to repent for their actions before they die. Otherwise, it will not be pretty.

Yet in another thread you're saying that the person sentenced to death over alleged blasphemy is an ''idiot'' and should be ''roughed up'' because he supposedly broke the law of the land.

And here you're preaching love and understanding and asking people to take ''stuff down'' when in truth nothing has been done against the US law.

The hypocrisy of people like you is absolutely sickening. Rough up people back home for criticising Islam but since you sit in the cosy West it is all about love and understanding.

Disgusting.

 

[Bilal7]

Yet in another thread you're saying that the person sentenced to death over alleged blasphemy is an ''idiot'' and should be ''roughed up'' because he supposedly broke the law of the land.

And here you're preaching love and understanding and asking people to take ''stuff down'' when in truth nothing has been done against the US law.

The hypocrisy of people like you is absolutely sickening. Rough up people back home for criticising Islam but since you sit in the cosy West it is all about love and understanding.

Disgusting.

Pakistan has the blasphemy law, wherever the billboard was put up does not. Anyone putting their life on the line by making a stupid post on social media in Pakistan is most definitely an idiot. The people trying to rile up Muslims in the Western countries are the exact opposite and know exactly what it is they are doing.

You would prefer that the man in question would rather be executed? Because that is what happens to those found guilty of breaching the blasphemy law in Pakistan.

Don't be so jazbati.

 

[Heisenberg]

Thats why i said in today's world we can choose to ignore it as it isnt something obligatory.

And bro, the era you live in dictates your beliefs. If you were alive thousands of years ago you would probably have been married to a 9 year old too and would have defended it with every breath of yours. Same goes for me and most others. Today our customs and scientific knowledge doesnt support it. 1000s of years from now, you and i dont know what changes would take place and what primitive beliefs would be revived. It all depends on how the world as a whole (material and moral) changes.

Its absolutely pointless to take jibes at each other by bringing up incidents which took place so many years ago when they arent even deemed obligatory.

You and I can absolutely choose to ignore it. Except there are currently little innocent lives being destroyed out there in the real world. Recently an 80 or so year old man got married to a child and there's a video if you are interested. I'm not here to win internet points by winning an argument that otherwise I do not care about. People can believe what they want. When they start acting on something that is wrong, I will call it out and I think all of us should. For them what they are doing is just following the Sunnah of the greatest man that ever lived.

I'm taking jibes at what is happening right now in 2017. I don't think they are pointless.

 

[Pakpak]

Pakistan has the blasphemy law, wherever the billboard was put up does not. Anyone putting their life on the line by making a stupid post on social media in Pakistan is most definitely an idiot. The people trying to rile up Muslims in the Western countries are the exact opposite and know exactly what it is they are doing.

You would prefer that the man in question would rather be executed? Because that is what happens to those found guilty of breaching the blasphemy law in Pakistan.

Don't be so jazbati.

I prefer the man to be let go. You prefer the man to be ''roughed up''.

See the difference?

Then you go and preach ''love and understanding'' when you see anti-Muslim bigotry in the West.

I'd rather be a jazbati than a hypocrite.

 

[Heisenberg]

Did you watch the Video ?


1. So, it is reported that He Pbuh marriage with Ayesha RA took place in 1st or 2nd A.H right ?

And after Hijra the Battle of Badar and Ohad took place and again as per Saha e Satta Hazrat Ayesha RA took part in the battles and helped the Muslims.


It is reported again in Saha e Satta that a 14 years old Boy came and said Hazur Pbuh I eant to fight and He Pbuh said No you are not allowed you are too young. So at time if you take Ayesha RA age at marriage 6 (alleged) than she sould have been 9 than so How He Pbuh allowed a 9 years old Girl to fight but did not allow 14 years Old boy to do so ? This tells that Atleast Ayesha RA would have been 15-16 and that's sas she was permitted and not 9.



2. Similarly ever heard about Ibn e Kathir ?


He reported aswell as 2 other accounts that Hazrat Asma died at the age of hundred in 73 AH. She was 10 years elder than Hazrat Ayesha RA her younger sister.

Dirong Hijra She was 28 so Ayesha RA was 18 and if Marriage took place in 2 AH than Hazrat Ayesha was 19 years old than and not 6 or 9.


3. Hazrat Ayesha RA narrates that when Surah e Qamar was revealed to He Pbuh than Hazrat Ayesha RA was a young girl. This happened 9 years before Hijra. Now if you or anyone says that at the time of Marriage Ayesha RA was 6 or 9 Naoozbillah than at the time of Revelation of Surah e Qamar would not have even born yet.



There are enough evidences to say that 6 or 9 years narrations are not Correct.


Furthermore this goes againsy the Character of He Pbuh.

You know that your points would be laughed at by all the 'scholars' in the world. We have a common enemy. Let's forget about it. I'm sure what you are doing is all in good faith and I wish you good luck.

 

[Black Zero]

Let's try our best to take stuff like this down but the last thing any brother (or sister) should do is respond with violence. The Prophet (May the Peace and Blessings of God be upon him) was the best human being to ever walk this earth. Allah ta'ala Himself says this and if some bigoted, ignorant, failures in life disagree and instead go out of their way to insult him, we should do exactly what the Prophet himself did when he was called a whole host of hurtful things by his own tribesmen. Be the best Muslims we can be and let the greatness of our beloved Nabi be displayed through our actions.

Allah ta'ala has created Hell for a reason. We all know what will be the end result of all these haters making merry at the moment. May God grant them guidance though and allow them to repent for their actions before they die. Otherwise, it will not be pretty.

If it's your belief that he was the best ever, then you should know it's just a belief. Nothing more nothing less.

And there is no reasons for any one to agree with your belief.

It's good that Muslim's face this criticism peacefully as otherwise west is already thinking to make muslims specific laws.

 

[Heisenberg]

Pakistan has the blasphemy law, wherever the billboard was put up does not. Anyone putting their life on the line by making a stupid post on social media in Pakistan is most definitely an idiot. The people trying to rile up Muslims in the Western countries are the exact opposite and know exactly what it is they are doing.

You would prefer that the man in question would rather be executed? Because that is what happens to those found guilty of breaching the blasphemy law in Pakistan.

Don't be so jazbati.

That stupid person was just expressing his beliefs but he didn't belong to the majority sect. That was his fault. What you believe will be blashpemy for other sects/religions and then if you are sent to jail for it and sentenced to death, you really would not call yourself stupid would you now?

 

[Pakpak]

If it's your belief that he was the best ever, then you should know it's just a belief. Nothing more nothing less.

And there is no reasons for any one to agree with your belief.

It's good that Muslim's face this criticism peacefully as otherwise west is already thinking to make muslims specific laws.

Muslims like him only face the criticism in the West because they know they'll be out on their **** if they act like thugs. Otherwise people like him support beating others up because of their views back home, tab saari maardaangi saamnay aati hai.

 

[Madplayer]

You and I can absolutely choose to ignore it. Except there are currently little innocent lives being destroyed out there in the real world. Recently an 80 or so year old man got married to a child and there's a video if you are interested. I'm not here to win internet points by winning an argument that otherwise I do not care about. People can believe what they want. When they start acting on something that is wrong, I will call it out and I think all of us should. For them what they are doing is just following the Sunnah of the greatest man that ever lived.

I'm taking jibes at what is happening right now in 2017. I don't think they are pointless.

I wasnt asking you to not call out the people who do it today. It is criminal in today's era amd we should speak against such a practice because it goes against the norms today. It doesnt matter if a muslim does it or some christian priest.

I was speaking generally about people who take jibes at muslims wrt what the Prophet did so many centuries ago when it was sanctioned by His society. That is pointless imo.

 

[Bilal7]

That stupid person was just expressing his beliefs but he didn't belong to the majority sect. That was his fault. What you believe will be blashpemy for other sects/religions and then if you are sent to jail for it and sentenced to death, you really would not call yourself stupid would you now?

I would for putting myself in that situation. If I'm in Shiv Sena territory, I won't be caught walking the streets shouting anti-Indian slogans and if I do, I am being pretty darn stupid.

His fault was breaking a law of the country he lives in. He may not agree with the law (and for the record neither do I), but living in Pakistan he has to be wary of it and amend his conduct respectively.

 

[Pakpak]

I would for putting myself in that situation. If I'm in Shiv Sena territory, I won't be caught walking the streets shouting anti-Indian slogans and if I do, I am being pretty darn stupid.

His fault was breaking a law of the country he lives in. He may not agree with the law (and for the record neither do I), but living in Pakistan he has to be wary of it and amend his conduct respectively.

So if Shiv Sena catch you, do you think you should be released or beaten up first?

If you're walking in a KKK neighborhood chanting anti-KKK slogans, do you think you should be let go or beaten up first?

I just want to know where you mental state is.

 

[Bilal7]

If it's your belief that he was the best ever, then you should know it's just a belief. Nothing more nothing less.

And there is no reasons for any one to agree with your belief.

It's good that Muslim's face this criticism peacefully as otherwise west is already thinking to make muslims specific laws.

Not just my belief but a fact that has been stated by God Himself. The reasons are there for those with sense. They thought about it but it really hasn't worked out, Alhamdulliah.

 

[Bilal7]

So if Shiv Sena catch you, do you think you should be released or beaten up first?

If you're walking in a KKK neighborhood chanting anti-KKK slogans, do you think you should be let go or beaten up first?

I just want to know where you mental state is.

I'd take getting beaten up over getting executed. My mental state is pretty normal but seeing how you can't see to grasp that getting executed is much, much worse than getting beaten up, you might want to have a look at yours.

 

[Bilal7]

Muslims like him only face the criticism in the West because they know they'll be out on their **** if they act like thugs. Otherwise people like him support beating others up because of their views back home, tab saari maardaangi saamnay aati hai.

People like you ruined Pakistan. Want to blame someone? Blame yourself.

 

[Pakpak]

I'd take getting beaten up over getting executed. My mental state is pretty normal but seeing how you can't see to grasp that getting executed is much, much worse than getting beaten up, you might want to have a look at yours.

The court did not mention beating up. It said execution.

The only person who suggested violence was you. I want him out safe and sound.

The unhinged one is you, not me. Should he be raped too, as that is also less worse than being executed. Or maybe have his legs and arms amputated as that is also surely less worse than being executed.

What do you think?

 

[Pakpak]

People like you ruined Pakistan. Want to blame someone? Blame yourself.

I am not even religious, how did people like me ruin Pakistan when people like me do not even run Pakistan? But religious nutters like you do.

 

[Bilal7]

The court did not mention beating up. It said execution.

The only person who suggested violence was you. I want him out safe and sound.

The unhinged one is you, not me. Should he be raped too, as that is also less worse than being executed. Or maybe have his legs and arms amputated as that is also surely less worse than being executed.

What do you think?

Like I said, stop being jazbati, chacha. This is a family forum and there is no need for such gruesome suggestions to be made here.

I can want the guy to win a million dollars in the lottery, secure refugee status in Canada and get married and live a happy life hereafter. Is all of this realistic? No. Is your wish of the guy getting out scot-free despite being charged with breaking the blasphemy law realistic? Unfortunately, it is not.

I there stated that I hope the worst punishment he is subjected to is a roughing up but you, being the simple-minded individual that you are, went off on a rant in two different threads, constructed several straw-men arguments and simply refuse to admit that you were wrong in doing so.

 

[Bilal7]

I am not even religious, how did people like me ruin Pakistan when people like me do not even run Pakistan? But religious nutters like you do.

Unfortunately, the politicians of the country aren't religious either and are as simple-minded as you. Stop blaming Islam for your failures.

 

[Pakpak]

Like I said, stop being jazbati, chacha. This is a family forum and there is no need for such gruesome suggestions to be made here.

I can want the guy to win a million dollars in the lottery, secure refugee status in Canada and get married and live a happy life hereafter. Is all of this realistic? No. Is your wish of the guy getting out scot-free despite being charged with breaking the blasphemy law realistic? Unfortunately, it is not.

I there stated that I hope the worst punishment he is subjected to is a roughing up but you, being the simple-minded individual that you are, went off on a rant in two different threads, constructed several straw-men arguments and simply refuse to admit that you were wrong in doing so.

Why are you hoping there is a worse punishment at all? You mentioned beating him up, as it that is not gruesome enough. So when you mention ''straw-men'' punishments its all dandy, but when I mention them I am constructing straw-men arguments?

Had you said ''I hope he is released without being harmed as in our country someone can easily be thrashed about in jail before their execution'' then I'd agreed with you.

But that's not what you said. You said he should be beaten up as (I am quoting you) its ''less worse than being killed''. Well so is being raped, where do you draw the line then is my question?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So if Shiv Sena catch you, do you think you should be released or beaten up first?

If you're walking in a KKK neighborhood chanting anti-KKK slogans, do you think you should be let go or beaten up first?

I just want to know where you mental state is.

Do you believe in universal laws across all cultures and borders? Or are you one of those who says, their country, their rules?

 

[Pakpak]

Unfortunately, the politicians of the country aren't religious either and are as simple-minded as you. Stop blaming Islam for your failures.

Free speech, no killings or beating people up because of religion, women rights, free education for all, end to non-Muslim bigotry, removal of corrupt political dynasties. These are my views. The same views Canadians have. Please point out which of these views have helped ruin Pakistan and then tell me how and then tell me why those views of mine, shared by Canadians, have not ruined Canada?

As for simple-minded, I'd rather be a simple-minded tolerant person than an extremist like you.

Also tell me where have I blamed Islam?

 

[Pakpak]

Do you believe in universal laws across all cultures and borders? Or are you one of those who says, their country, their rules?

I am one for their country their rules, hence I didn't really comment on the execution at all. However I am not a hypocrite. I won't be cheering love and understanding when faced with bigotry in the West and then asking for people to be smacked about for the same thing in Pakistan.

 

[Bilal7]

Why are you hoping there is a worse punishment at all? You mentioned beating him up, as it that is not gruesome enough. So when you mention ''straw-men'' punishments its all dandy, but when I mention them I am constructing straw-men arguments?

Had you said ''I hope he is released without being harmed as in our country someone can easily be thrashed about in jail before their execution'' then I'd agreed with you.

But that's not what you said. You said he should be beaten up as (I am quoting you) its ''less worse than being killed''. Well so is being raped, where do you draw the line then is my question?

You are a blatant liar. Liars like you have destroyed Pakistan. My original post which you misunderstood:

"This idiot knew the consequences of what he was doing, living in Pakistan. If he truly is guilty for what he did, I hope he gets roughed up real good and then released. Execution should only be for serious things."

Where have I said that he "should" be beaten up? This unadulterated quote of mine from the blasphemy law thread clearly shows that I hope he only gets beaten up and not executed. If you are willing to be a man and not continue to lie your way out of the hole you have dug yourself in, kudos to you.

 

[Heisenberg]

I would for putting myself in that situation. If I'm in Shiv Sena territory, I won't be caught walking the streets shouting anti-Indian slogans and if I do, I am being pretty darn stupid.

His fault was breaking a law of the country he lives in. He may not agree with the law (and for the record neither do I), but living in Pakistan he has to be wary of it and amend his conduct respectively.

Are you really going to compare shouting anti-indian slogans on the streets to people expressing their belief, for instance, prophet Muhammad is the last prophet in a conversation..

Really?

The person in question wasn't out and about chanting anti-islamic slogans for the lulz. He was speaking from the point of view of his own sect which can be considered Blasphemy for the religious nutters of anither more popular sect, but having seen your posts in this thread you seem to be one yourself so I don't think you could possibly understand. You don't even understand the difference between facts and beliefs.

 

[Heisenberg]

You are a blatant liar. Liars like you have destroyed Pakistan. My original post which you misunderstood:

"This idiot knew the consequences of what he was doing, living in Pakistan. If he truly is guilty for what he did, I hope he gets roughed up real good and then released. Execution should only be for serious things."

Where have I said that he "should" be beaten up? This unadulterated quote of mine from the blasphemy law thread clearly shows that I hope he only gets beaten up and not executed. If you are willing to be a man and not continue to lie your way out of the hole you have dug yourself in, kudos to you.

You hoped he would get roughed up as opposed to hoping he would get released without any harm. If you are hoping, might as well hope for the best scenario right?

 

[tonmoy]

I would like to make couple of comments.
While, Aisha's age has been discussed here in length, I was wondering about the other allegations?
1/ Is it true that he beheaded 600+ jews in a day (or beheaded them at all?)
2/ Did the prophet have 11 + wives ?
3/ Did the prophet have concubines?

As per Ayesha's age, my two cent
Yes she was young when she got married, my grandmother got married at the age of 15. I do not think that is a concern for its time. However if Islam claims to be for all times and all ages than I would state that this cannot be true since such an age is unacceptable as per majority view in this age and time.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am one for their country their rules, hence I didn't really comment on the execution at all. However I am not a hypocrite. I won't be cheering love and understanding when faced with bigotry in the West and then asking for people to be smacked about for the same thing in Pakistan.

I think the important thing is that a country has to stand up for what it believes in and it's laws should reflect that. Then it's up to the individual to fit in if that's where they choose to live. I don't really know how the hate speech laws work in the US so it might be perfectly okay in America to post inciteful messages on a billboard. You could probably do the same with Christian texts if you had the inclination.

 

[Pakpak]

You are a blatant liar. Liars like you have destroyed Pakistan. My original post which you misunderstood:

"This idiot knew the consequences of what he was doing, living in Pakistan. If he truly is guilty for what he did, I hope he gets roughed up real good and then released. Execution should only be for serious things."

Where have I said that he "should" be beaten up? This unadulterated quote of mine from the blasphemy law thread clearly shows that I hope he only gets beaten up and not executed. If you are willing to be a man and not continue to lie your way out of the hole you have dug yourself in, kudos to you.

''If he is truly guilty for what he did he should be roughed up real good''.

Please explain to people what this means. Because in normal English this means ''if he is guilty of what he did, ie insult Islam, he should be beaten up''. Who's the liar now?

As for liar, looks like you're about to be proven yourself a pretty big one after you answer this post:

Free speech, no killings or beating people up because of religion, women rights, free education for all, end to non-Muslim bigotry, removal of corrupt political dynasties. These are my views. The same views Canadians have. Please point out which of these views have helped ruin Pakistan and then tell me how and then tell me why those views of mine, shared by Canadians, have not ruined Canada? As for simple-minded, I'd rather be a simple-minded tolerant person than an extremist like you. Also tell me where have I blamed Islam?

 

[Bilal7]

I would like to make couple of comments.
While, Aisha's age has been discussed here in length, I was wondering about the other allegations?
1/ Is it true that he beheaded 600+ jews in a day (or beheaded them at all?)
2/ Did the prophet have 11 + wives ?
3/ Did the prophet have concubines?

As per Ayesha's age, my two cent
Yes she was young when she got married, my grandmother got married at the age of 15. I do not think that is a concern for its time. However if Islam claims to be for all times and all ages than I would state that this cannot be true since such an age is unacceptable as per majority view in this age and time.

1) Jews who comitted treason and almost caused the entire Muslim populace to be killed off were eliminated. Not aware of the number.

2) and 3) Yes, he did. Most of them were widows or divorced women and coming to your third point, the Prophet (PBUH) marrying 11 different women had more to do with teaching the Muslim community a variety of issues rather than any personal objective. Yes, he did marry Mother Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) but he also married women that were older than him, divorced, etc. So no matter in which time period or situation a Muslim may find himself in, he would have an example to follow in the Prophet's life.

 

[Heisenberg]

I would like to make couple of comments.
While, Aisha's age has been discussed here in length, I was wondering about the other allegations?
1/ Is it true that he beheaded 600+ jews in a day (or beheaded them at all?)
2/ Did the prophet have 11 + wives ?
3/ Did the prophet have concubines?

As per Ayesha's age, my two cent
Yes she was young when she got married, my grandmother got married at the age of 15. I do not think that is a concern for its time. However if Islam claims to be for all times and all ages than I would state that this cannot be true since such an age is unacceptable as per majority view in this age and time.

How old was your grandfather?

 

[Bilal7]

''If he is truly guilty for what he did he should be roughed up real good''.

Please explain to people what this means. Because in normal English this means ''if he is guilty of what he did, ie insult Islam, he should be beaten up''. Who's the liar now?

As for liar, looks like you're about to be proven yourself a pretty big one after you answer this post:

Free speech, no killings or beating people up because of religion, women rights, free education for all, end to non-Muslim bigotry, removal of corrupt political dynasties. These are my views. The same views Canadians have. Please point out which of these views have helped ruin Pakistan and then tell me how and then tell me why those views of mine, shared by Canadians, have not ruined Canada? As for simple-minded, I'd rather be a simple-minded tolerant person than an extremist like you. Also tell me where have I blamed Islam?

You said you were quoting me, not misinterpreting my statement. Yet another lie. As for my statement, I said if guilty because I believe he hasn't been found guilty yet, although I may be wrong on this. I believe he was arrested and charged with breaking the law but the verdict from the courts is still pending. If he's innocent, then he'll be let go. However, if he's guilty then I hope he really isn't executed.

Your intolerance, jazbati nature and simple-mindedness is what I was alluding to. And yes, your lies too.

 

[Pakpak]

Free speech, no killings or beating people up because of religion, women rights, free education for all, end to non-Muslim bigotry, removal of corrupt political dynasties. These are my views. The same views Canadians have. Please point out which of these views have helped ruin Pakistan and then tell me how and then tell me why those views of mine, shared by Canadians, have not ruined Canada?

As for simple-minded, I'd rather be a simple-minded tolerant person than an extremist like you.

Also tell me where have I blamed Islam?

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] please explain to me, for the benefit of the PP populace, as to how any of the above views have destroyed Pakistan and not Canada and also please show everyone where I have blamed Islam for the ''problems''.

No wonder you're going around labelling people liars, apni shakal jo nahi dekhi abhi.

 

[Pakpak]

You said you were quoting me, not misinterpreting my statement. Yet another lie. As for my statement, I said if guilty because I believe he hasn't been found guilty yet, although I may be wrong on this. I believe he was arrested and charged with breaking the law but the verdict from the courts is still pending. If he's innocent, then he'll be let go. However, if he's guilty then I hope he really isn't executed.

Your intolerance, jazbati nature and simple-mindedness is what I was alluding to. And yes, your lies too.

You keep saying how my views are intolerant, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you again:

My views are free speech, no racism, no bigotry, no corruption, no attacking people because of their religion.

So tell me: which of the above are intolerant and which of the above have ruined Pakistan. And since the above views are shared by Canada why has it not ruined them.

Forget everything else, just answer me this. You've made an allegation, so prove it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

For those of you discussing a personal disagreement over the Pakistan blasphemy law in a different thread, might be an idea to continue discussing it there. We don't really need to have personal disputes in two unrelated topics.

 

[Bilal7]

[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] please explain to me, for the benefit of the PP populace, as to how any of the above views have destroyed Pakistan and not Canada and also please show everyone where I have blamed Islam for the ''problems''.

No wonder you're going around labelling people liars, apni shakal jo nahi dekhi abhi.

A typical response from someone like you. Anyways, you seem to want to do nothing but engage in mud-slinging so I don't have anything else to discuss with you. A little late with this post though, I already addressed your pressing concern above but not before I thoroughly exposed you for the liar that you are.

 

[Pakpak]

A typical response from someone like you. Anyways, you seem to want to do nothing but engage in mud-slinging so I don't have anything else to discuss with you. A little late with this post though, I already addressed your pressing concern above but not before I thoroughly exposed you for the liar that you are.

So basically you can't show me where I have blamed Islam (because I haven't), neither can you show me how free speech, no racism, no bigotry, no executions based on views, no violence, no corruption etc is intolerant.

Sir, that makes you a liar. Not me.

 

[Heisenberg]

A typical response from someone like you. Anyways, you seem to want to do nothing but engage in mud-slinging so I don't have anything else to discuss with you. A little late with this post though, I already addressed your pressing concern above but not before I thoroughly exposed you for the liar that you are.

Embarrassing.

 

[Pakpak]

Embarrassing.

It is isn't it. The guy says I have insulted Islam, but then can't give me a single quote to back his allegation. Then says I am intolerant, but then can't tell me how believing in free speech, being anti-racist, anti-corruption etc is intolerance or how such views have ''ruined Pakistan''.

And I am the liar.

 

[Bilal7]

One thing I have noticed is that these smear campaigns backfire spectacularly. People who would know nothing about Islam will see that poster and be all like "Hmmm... That sounds terrible", go home and read up about this man named "Mohammad", read about Islam and the next thing you know, they show up at a masjid and ask to join the Muslim Ummah.

 

[Bilal7]

You hoped he would get roughed up as opposed to hoping he would get released without any harm. If you are hoping, might as well hope for the best scenario right?

I hoped for a realistic, best-case scenario.

Are you really going to compare shouting anti-indian slogans on the streets to people expressing their belief, for instance, prophet Muhammad is the last prophet in a conversation..

Really?

The person in question wasn't out and about chanting anti-islamic slogans for the lulz. He was speaking from the point of view of his own sect which can be considered Blasphemy for the religious nutters of anither more popular sect, but having seen your posts in this thread you seem to be one yourself so I don't think you could possibly understand. You don't even understand the difference between facts and beliefs.

No, he wasn't having a discussion. He "posted derogatory comments" about the Prophet (PBUH) and his family on social media. If speaking "from the point of view of his own sect" was all he was doing, every shia living in Pakistan would be getting rounded up.

The only one who doesn't understand is you. I do ask you to refrain from petty name-calling though. That should be something even you can understand.

 

[Heisenberg]

If speaking "from the point of view of his own sect" was all he was doing, every shia living in Pakistan would be getting rounded up.

Except they are being targeted and our very own interior minister has claimed hatred spreading sectarian groups are not terrorists.

Welcome to reality.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

You know that your points would be laughed at by all the 'scholars' in the world. We have a common enemy. Let's forget about it. I'm sure what you are doing is all in good faith and I wish you good luck.

No. These are beliefs of Millions. These are from Ahadith books. You want to dump Go Ahead. No worries.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I wasnt asking you to not call out the people who do it today. It is criminal in today's era amd we should speak against such a practice because it goes against the norms today. It doesnt matter if a muslim does it or some christian priest.

I was speaking generally about people who take jibes at muslims wrt what the Prophet did so many centuries ago when it was sanctioned by His society. That is pointless imo.

Don't ridicule the Society or the Prophet Pbuh.


Neither it was sanctioned neither the Best of the Best Pbuh did it.

Mohammad Pbuh would never do things which the society allows him. He would do things which Allah allowed him to do and what his Best of morals dictated. Morality or Islam do not permit a Man marrying a 6 or 9 years Old girl and He Pbuh did not do it.


Don't ridicule the Best of the Best Pbuh just in order to defend weak narrations or Mullah's who narrate it.


For Me Islam is a Life and an assett precious than anything on Earth and if I believed that Naoozbillah Prophet Pbuh married a 6 or 9 years old girl which is nothing but a legally covered child abuse than I will leave Islam there & than.


Do your Research and Study. There are more than 3 evidence lines from the same Saha e Satta which prove that prove that Hazrat Ayesha RA was 14-19 years old when she got married.


2-3 Ahadith (so called) are not verses of Holy Quran which you neef to defend at any cost even if the Person you love and follow gets ridiculed in the process.

 

[tonmoy]

1) Jews who comitted treason and almost caused the entire Muslim populace to be killed off were eliminated. Not aware of the number.

2) and 3) Yes, he did. Most of them were widows or divorced women and coming to your third point, the Prophet (PBUH) marrying 11 different women had more to do with teaching the Muslim community a variety of issues rather than any personal objective. Yes, he did marry Mother Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) but he also married women that were older than him, divorced, etc. So no matter in which time period or situation a Muslim may find himself in, he would have an example to follow in the Prophet's life.

My own two cents

I believe in this time and age, it is not acceptable to have concubines (no matter what the circumstance), similarly it is not acceptable in this modern age to have 11 wives. There are other ways to help a widowed woman than through marriage. I hope I do not have to explain why concubines are bad.

Lastly, beheading is also a very gruesome way to kill someone. Not acceptable in modern times and not an example to follow.

 

[tonmoy]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...its-deemed-un-islamic/?utm_term=.152344984907

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I would like to make couple of comments.

1/ Is it true that he beheaded 600+ jews in a day (or beheaded them at all?)

Exageratted Number. Only those were executed who committed treason plus were mass murderers. They were enemy of the State like Taliban, ISIS etc

2/ Did the prophet have 11 + wives ?

No. This is not the right number.

3/ Did the prophet have concubines?

No. Islam has come to end slavery. In Islam you can only have physical relations with your wife or husband. All other are deemed as unlawful illegitimate relations and counted as Adultery. Prophet Pbuh married one of the POW with her Consent.



If you really want to learn and know and allegations/point scoring/ridiculing is not your agenda than read the relevent pages of


1. Life of Muhammad by Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad

2. Muhammad Seal of the Prophets by Zafrullah Khan



Free Pdf versions available online.



All Divine figures in the History of Mankind were mocked, ridiculed and false dirty filthy allegations were made about them. For Example Hindu Divine personalities who were pious righteous figures were alleged to be womanisets with having multiple girlfriends without any marriage Pact. So in the realms of religion this is nothing new.

 

[Bilal7]

Except they are being targeted and our very own interior minister has claimed hatred spreading sectarian groups are not terrorists.

Welcome to reality.

My own two cents

I believe in this time and age, it is not acceptable to have concubines (no matter what the circumstance), similarly it is not acceptable in this modern age to have 11 wives. There are other ways to help a widowed woman than through marriage. I hope I do not have to explain why concubines are bad.

Lastly, beheading is also a very gruesome way to kill someone. Not acceptable in modern times and not an example to follow.

Yes, Islam promotes the freeing of slaves and there were several ways that slaves would earn their freedom under Islam. Slaves were also given a whole host of rights by Islam, so much so that many were treated no different than any other family member by their masters. There is nothing in Islamic belief that requires Muslims to have slaves of their own. However, during the times of the Prophet, slavery was embedded into the social fabric and therefore could not be abolished instantly, without harming society. Similar is the case with alcohol which was declared unlawful step by step.

Yes, Islam only allows Muslim men, other than the Prophet (PBUH), a maximum of four wives but only on the condition that they be treated fairly and not unjustly. The Quran explicitly states that is a man fears that he won't be able to be just with multiple wives then he should only marry one, which is what the vast majority of Muslims do today.

It's interesting you say this, yet beheading, if done properly, has been said to be quite painless for the victim. More so than hanging, where the victim is slowly being choked to death. I read something about it being more painless than lethal injection as well. However, once again, that was more to do with the times and is not something that needs to be followed today as well.

Islam is a way of life for all ages, this includes the time period a 1000 years ago and also includes the future as well.