Nathan Lyon Test stats - a holistic overview of the records of an Australian great

[RizwanT20Champ]

A lot has been made of how good Nathan Lyon is at home in unfavourable conditions where visiting spinners get smashed. However, we need to remember visiting spinners bowl to Aus in Aus which is the toughest test in cricket. When we break down Lyon's record by opposition at home, it does not make for pretty reading.

Overall record in Aus (quite good):



However, breaking it down by opposition:



Against the stronger lineups at home (which are still worse than Aus in Aus), he averages 38, 35, 39 and 44 (including SL as he played the stronger teams of the past which had Sanga and Jaya).

He has feasted on West Indies (weak West Indies, post Lara/Chanders etc.). Thoughts?

 

[Mamoon]

Lyon is an average spinner like Ashwin and Jadeja. This is an era of mediocre spinners who wickets tally flatter their skills.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Lyon is an average spinner like Ashwin and Jadeja. This is an era of mediocre spinners who wickets tally flatter their skills.

Agree with your analysis. I saw some Gullas overhyping Lyon in the past therefore I decided to use empirical data.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I don't think there is any spin-bowler from the modern era besides Warne that has done well in Australia across the board. There is a reason it is considered a graveyard for spinners.

 

[Mamoon]

Agree with your analysis. I saw some Gullas overhyping Lyon in the past therefore I decided to use empirical data.

Swann was the last great off-spinner.

 

[jnaveen1980]

He is one of those guys who has a permanent spot in his side due to lack of option. He is not an outrageously skilled bowler. He just sets long on long off from first ball. Bore the batsman until they make a mistake. Just relies on bounce

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Swann was the last great off-spinner.

Agreed again. Classic action too and did very well against good Indian sides in India as well on flat tracks.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

I don't think there is any spin-bowler from the modern era besides Warne that has done well in Australia across the board. There is a reason it is considered a graveyard for spinners.

This is very true and hence why I think visiting spinners are judged harshly over there. From memory only Ajju, Ashwin and Kumble even had a couple of decent spells.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

This is very true and hence why I think visiting spinners are judged harshly over there. From memory only Ajju, Ashwin and Kumble even had a couple of decent spells.

Kumble actually had a pretty good series in 2003/04. Especially considering how flat the pitches were in that series. But I don't think his overall record there is anything to write home about.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Kumble actually had a pretty good series in 2003/04. Especially considering how flat the pitches were in that series. But I don't think his overall record there is anything to write home about.

yes true!

 

[jnaveen1980]

Kumble actually had a pretty good series in 2003/04. Especially considering how flat the pitches were in that series. But I don't think his overall record there is anything to write home about.

It depends on what surfaces you play on or whether drop in pitches were used or not. What day of the match you bowl. Over a period nature of the surfaces in Australia have changed a bit here and there. Ashwin was actually quiet good there as he got extra bounce there. He dismissed smith 3 times for cheap scores a reason why India managed to contain Australia there. Sundar also bowled well on his debut picking 3 wickets at the Gabba. He is a far better bowler than he was.

 

[Buffet]

A lot has been made of how good Nathan Lyon is at home in unfavourable conditions where visiting spinners get smashed. However, we need to remember visiting spinners bowl to Aus in Aus which is the toughest test in cricket. When we break down Lyon's record by opposition at home, it does not make for pretty reading.

Against the stronger lineups at home (which are still worse than Aus in Aus), he averages 38, 35, 39 and 44 (including SL as he played the stronger teams of the past which had Sanga and Jaya).

He has feasted on West Indies (weak West Indies, post Lara/Chanders etc.). Thoughts?

A very good break up of data.

I have never rated Lyon high despite many posters making case for him being as skilled as Ashwin. He was outbowled by Ashwin/Jadeja even at home and that's why India won 2 back to back series. Sure, Bumrah was a factor, but Ashwin/Jadeja bowled well by makign it very hard for Aus to score. Aus pitches are hard for spinners. Except Warne, not many have consistent performance in Aus for any long stretch.

Having said that, Lyon is not very impressive even in Asia. He averages 30-31 in Asia.

Lyon in favorable pitches in Asia




In to sum it up, he won't be among the top spinners in Asian conditions. He was ordinary against good teams in home conditions. He has played his part in holding one end though and Aus did not have better options so he kept playing.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

It depends on what surfaces you play on or whether drop in pitches were used or not. What day of the match you bowl. Over a period nature of the surfaces in Australia have changed a bit here and there. Ashwin was actually quiet good there as he got extra bounce there. He dismissed smith 3 times for cheap scores a reason why India managed to contain Australia there. Sundar also bowled well on his debut picking 3 wickets at the MCG. He is a far better bowler than he was.

If you're grading on a curve, you could argue that Ashwin has been the best in recent times based on his performances in the last two series. Which is why it is even more frustrating to see India constantly leave him out of the playing eleven.

 

[jnaveen1980]

If you're grading on a curve, you could argue that Ashwin has been the best in recent times based on his performances in the last two series. Which is why it is even more frustrating to see India constantly leave him out of the playing eleven.

Kohli's mantra was 4 fast bowlers even if they are rank tailenders. So they had to leave out a spinner. But this set up has reddy as 4th seamer. He is more a 5th seamer. But he has batted better than everyone except Rahul. So it is hard to leave him out. That is why they are rotating spinners around while keeping thse loser superstars in the XI. It is a compromise XI.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Quite a mystery to me why the Aussies persisted with him all these years despite the fact he’s always been just a decent spinner. They went through a phase when they tried quite a few spinners and then settled for him long term without ever considering a replacement. The dude has enjoyed an assured spot in the playing XI everywhere Australia plays regardless of how well he bowls.

Ashwin is levels above him as a spinner obviously. If he was played everywhere he would have had close to 650 test wickets already.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Kohli's mantra was 4 fast bowlers even if they are rank tailenders. So they had to leave out a spinner. But this set up has reddy as 4th seamer. He is more a 5th seamer. But he has batted better than everyone except Rahul. So it is hard to leave him out. That is why they are rotating spinners around while keeping thse loser superstars in the XI. It is a compromise XI.

Overseas, India generally tend to play one spinner. Even during Kohli era they used to play one spinner unless they were playing on a really pace-friendly pitch. What frustrates me is precisely that: the rotation. I feel like India is always looking to play a spin-bowling all-rounder rather than playing their best spinner.

Even someone like Jadeja makes more sense as a batting AR overseas rather than a bowling AR.

 

[ElRaja]

why do you need a spinner in aussie conditions? to rest your 3.5 bowler seam attack (which incidentally is good enough to win you games at home). ok so how is your support bowler doing compared to every other spinner.

well, in the 70 tests lyon has played in aus, only five other spin bowlers have taken more than ten wickets, ashwin, 40 at 43 is the only meaningful comparative. jadeja with an average of 29 is the only one better, but he has 14 wickets, so hardly a comparable sample.

so slicing and dicing his home record by opposition makes no sense, hes still out bowling virtually every opposition spinner, whilst controlling the run rate, providing a decent wicket taking threat, and most importantly, buying time for the seamers to recouperate and recover.

is lyon an atg spinner, no, but lyon is still a gun player for this aussie lineup, who is specialised to provide utility on unhelpful surfaces and plays his role perfectly.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Overseas, India generally tend to play one spinner. Even during Kohli era they used to play one spinner unless they were playing on a really pace-friendly pitch. What frustrates me is precisely that: the rotation. I feel like India is always looking to play a spin-bowling all-rounder rather than playing their best spinner.

Even someone like Jadeja makes more sense as a batting AR overseas rather than a bowling AR.

There was a period post COVID Indian MIddle order (Pujara, Kohli, Rahane) averaged under 30 for 3 years especially overseas. With inconsistent Rahul at top, unpredictable Pant in the middle India did not have even a single reliable player in their set up. THat is where Jaddu came in. His batting remarkably improved. He averages 50 in Australia. Then that magnificent 100 against England. He became a crisis man for India. It was hard to leave out. Despite top wicket taker in all the WTC editions Ashwin was left out 6 or 7 tests in a row in England even though Australian team members and fans consider Ashwin as the biggest threat after Bumrah.