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Nathan Lyon vs Ravichandran Ashwin in Tests - The better off-spinner?

Lyon is bowling at a completely another level this test. :bow:

This is ATGesque level bowling in this test.

#Lyonaritharan
 
Ashwin and Herath faced off in 2015 on 3 tracks (heavy turner, turner, pace friendly track and barring one innings, Ashwin outbowled him in all the tracks).

Here Ashwin isn't able to pick wickets even on a turner (his supposed strength).



Jaddu is more than just a darter.

If you look at the data, you would see Jadeja has clicked equally good on pattas and rank turners. He has taken 7fer on pattas and gone wicketless on rank turners too.

Ofcourse you very conveniently are overlooking the fact that Herath was in really poor form during that time and was even dropped for the third test vs Pakistan.

The fact of the matter is Ashwin is a tier or two below Murali and Warne and possibly on same level to Kumble and Saqlain despite what the stats say his record has been padded by bowling on spin friendly tracks.
 
Ofcourse you very conveniently are overlooking the fact that Herath was in really poor form during that time and was even dropped for the third test vs Pakistan.

The fact of the matter is Ashwin is a tier or two below Murali and Warne and possibly on same level to Kumble and Saqlain despite what the stats say his record has been padded by bowling on spin friendly tracks.

I am not ignoring that but just pointing out its not so obvious fact that Herath is better than Ash. Before this series, there were hardly one or two posters who said he was better than Ashwin. And they too used the Aus tour to make a point. But now that Ashwin has gone off boil and bowling like a gully bowler, perceptions may have changed.

There is no doubt Herath has achieved more than Ashwin outside Asia for now but watching those 2 bowl, majority would know who was the better bowler (atleast in Asian conditions). You don't need stats to know that.

If Ashwin had destroyed Aus in these 2 tests, how many posters would be claiming Herath was still better? Very very few.

Also who said Ashwin is in the league of Murali and Warne?

I mean seriously who?

Why can't people discern between media hype and actual truth inspite of 10,000+ statements by Indians stating that Ashwin has a lot to prove and he is not Murali, Warne league. In fact, Ashwin is considered an inferior bowler to Jaddu on pattas by many Indians.

Is it his fault that Waugh called him Bradman (which was a cringeworthy over-reaction)?

Yes, his stats are boosted. Everyone knows that. But its also true that because he is so over-rated by today's hyperbolic media, people love to see him crash and burn.

I feel Indian fans have been grounded reg him for most part.
 
Lyon seems to be at the peak of his powers on this tour. Just incredible turn and control.

Looks like he'll take a wicket every delivery.
 
Started off like an ATG in 3rd innings but good Indian batting Ashwined him so far. :P

First time India bats well this series and we lost 4 wickets in a whole day.
 
Is Ash really struggling with injury?

Haven't seen either of the 2 tests, but he hasn't done much other than 1 innings.
 
Is Ash really struggling with injury?

Haven't seen either of the 2 tests, but he hasn't done much other than 1 innings.

Yes he has been pretty poor off late. Somehow managed to bring in a damn good spell when it mattered the most. Even Indian fans are a bit shocked.
 
Lyon rarely gets to bowl in Asian conditions, but in recent times, whenever he's been given the job of bowling in the Sun Continent, he's turned up and like a champion! Another 10fer for the legend. And he's done really well in places like Aus, Eng and SA too where Ashwin had miserably failed. Who do you think is the better spinner?
 
Lyon rarely gets to bowl in Asian conditions, but in recent times, whenever he's been given the job of bowling in the Sun Continent, he's turned up and like a champion! Another 10fer for the legend. And he's done really well in places like Aus, Eng and SA too where Ashwin had miserably failed. Who do you think is the better spinner?

I am shocked to see that he is almost 2 years younger than Yasir Shah...
He is a good bowler and has performed decently everywhere.. and is a sure starter in the AUS test eleven wherever they play.
 
Ashwin is the better bowler, but Lyon is very very underated. He has proven that on these last 2 Asian tours.
 
If you have to praise Lyon, cannot you praise him on his own without feeling the urge to compare him with Ashwin (or someone else) and then pronounce your subjective verdict that Lyon is better ?

Cold facts/ statistics etc should be relied upon rather than one's prejudice in such matters.
 
Indian batting >>>>>>>Bangladesh batting.
Claiming Bangladeshi wickets does not make a spinner better than any other spinner.
Every bowling attack, even those with normal bowlers can claim 20 Bangladeshi wickets in a test.
 
Indian batting >>>>>>>Bangladesh batting.
Claiming Bangladeshi wickets does not make a spinner better than any other spinner.
Every bowling attack, even those with normal bowlers can claim 20 Bangladeshi wickets in a test.

Lyon averaged 25 in the recent series against "Indian batting", while Ashwin averaged 27 against a famously weak against spin Australian batting. There is no question at this point, Ashwin is a no hoper overseas and has been outperformed by Lyon in his own country. Lyon is the best off spinner in the world at this point.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It's a second five-wicket haul of the match for <a href="https://twitter.com/NathLyon421">@NathLyon421</a>, and he's now the leading Test wicket taker in 2017! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BANvAUS?src=hash">#BANvAUS</a> <a href="https://t.co/nsBd6GoEfu">pic.twitter.com/nsBd6GoEfu</a></p>— ICC (@ICC) <a href="https://twitter.com/ICC/status/905711729073643520">September 7, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
In the last 2 years, Lyon has been a better spinner than Ashwin.

Far better outside Asia, matches him in Asia in with regards to impact and outperformed him when the two last played together.
 
Ashwin is the second best spinner in international cricket right now, just behind sir jadeja
 
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Leaving aside the comparing, i have to Lyon is the best offie Australia ever produced. If you look at top 6 spinners from Australia 5 of them are leggies. Warne, Benaud, Grimmett, McGill, O'reilly. Lyon 2nd .
 
Lyon is a lot better in all conditions .
Ashwin is the bowling version of Sehwag , dangerous in helpful conditions , trash everywhere else.
 
In the last 2 years, Lyon has been a better spinner than Ashwin.

Far better outside Asia, matches him in Asia in with regards to impact and outperformed him when the two last played together.

How they did when they played together is a bad way to look at it. Overall, Lyon isn't close to Ashwin in Asia. Look at his performace in Sri Lanka.
 
Lyon is a better bowler than Ashwin.

Ashwin is too easy to score off these days.
 
Really? Is this even a comparison? Ashwin is miles ahead. The amount of progress he made over the years is unbelievable. Seems like he works hard and a very innovative bowler.
 
How they did when they played together is a bad way to look at it. Overall, Lyon isn't close to Ashwin in Asia. Look at his performace in Sri Lanka.
Lol love how you ignore everything else I said and pick up only on that.

Ashwin and Lyon played on the same home tracks for Ashwin in which Lyon averaged better and had half the scoreboard pressure that Ashwin had. Not to mention he's leagues ahead overseas... Overall he's a superior better bowler but due to not being as consistent as Ashwin I won't rate him better. Would rate them equal tbh.

It's more a case of Ashwin not being as good as people claim rather than Lyon not being rated how he should.
 
Lyon is more useful overall. Ashwin is a liability outside Asia but an ATG bowler in Asia.
 
Ashwin is miles ahead. Its not even funny.

We are concurrently seeing the best patch of Lyon's career and arguably the worst part of Ashwin's (exc. initial year or so). And yet it is a comparison with many going for Ashwin

So its a nobrainer really
 
One stunning stat from Ashwin is he has taken 121 wickets against England, South Africa and NZ.

118 at home and 3 away.
 
Lyon is an average bowler compare to Ashwin. If Bangladeshi players were not reckless and so generous Lyon would not get even 5 wickets altogether in 2 matches.
 
Lyon is an average bowler compare to Ashwin. If Bangladeshi players were not reckless and so generous Lyon would not get even 5 wickets altogether in 2 matches.



LOL, so that is his fault too that opposition (who is generally known to play spin quite well) cannot handle him and end up playing bad shots, wow!

One learns something new everyday on this board
 
Lyons. Ashwin is overrated because of all the Indians talking him up everywhere. If u tell a lie enough times, it seems like the truth
 
If they retired right now, Lyon's record would be far more respectable. Until Ashwin proves, he can deliver match winning spells outside his comfort zone, his status as a bowler will continue to decline.

I would argue he's not even India's best spinner, Jadeja is.
 
When it is already known and concluded that Ashwin is no good then why waste everyone's time opening this thread ?
 
The question is, who would you rather have in your team? I know my pick is Lyon.
 
So many fundamental and statistical mistakes in the analysis of others that its not even funny.

What I find more surprising is no one has bothered to correct them. Let it be.

Lyon defo is more proven in varied conditions. That we all can agree. I think he gives more revs on the ball too (though I never know how to judge this aspect properly).
 
Lyon is far better than Ashwin now. He can bowl better than anyone in Australia, and has also learnt how to bowl in Asia, recently.
 
One stunning stat from Ashwin is he has taken 121 wickets against England, South Africa and NZ.

118 at home and 3 away.

Wow. That is pretty pathetic. Not to mention that he did not bowl a single delivery to guys like Younis, Sarfaraz and Misbah, who would have eaten him alive.
 
:)) Here they come.

Lyon is a fine spinner. But he knows who is the best and has openly talked about watching Ashwin to learn the finer details :bhajji
 
Lyon wins this by a mile.

Ashwin seems a one-trick pony who can only thrive on spinning wickets. Jadeja is much better than him.
 
Ashwin is the ultimate ghar ka sher. Lyon is now the leading wicket taker in 2017 I believe.
 
I would love to see Nathan Lyon in PSL for QG team with Sarf shouting "Shabba Garry, big shot coming".
 
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On current form Lyon is the better bowler . He has improved massively this year. On rank turners he will be a danger and he will always cause lefties problem.
 
Ashwin hasn't really helped himself, has he?
 
Ashwin's career avg 25.6
Lyon's career avg 32.2


Ashwin vs Lyon bowling averages by country:

Ind - 22.8 vs 30.6
Aus 54 vs 33
Eng - 33 vs 32
SA - 46 vs 40
SL - 21.5 vs 33.5
WI - 23 vs 23

Ashwin has not played a test match in NZ.


I honestly can't see how Lyon is the better spinner. They both seem the same to me.
 
And what has Lyon done?

Nice to see you've plucked up the courage to post in the cricket sections :)

Took an eight-fer in India.

But couldn't help Aus win the match. Australia lost that match.

Just like Ashwin took a 7-fer in Edgbaston but India still lost the match.


Lyon hasn't won Australia any games in Asia. The only bowler who's won them a match in Asia in recent times is O' Keefe.
 
Ashwin's career avg 25.6
Lyon's career avg 32.2


Ashwin vs Lyon bowling averages by country:

Ind - 22.8 vs 30.6
Aus 54 vs 33
Eng - 33 vs 32
SA - 46 vs 40
SL - 21.5 vs 33.5
WI - 23 vs 23

Ashwin has not played a test match in NZ.

I honestly can't see how Lyon is the better spinner. They both seem the same to me.

Lyon has better averages in Australia, England, South Africa and unlike Ashwin, has also bowled in New Zealand and the UAE. Ashwin has a better average in India and Sri Lanka. Based on these stats, I can't see why you can't see that Lyon is better.
 
Lyon > Moeen > Ashwin. :ashwin

But couldn't help Aus win the match. Australia lost that match.

Just like Ashwin took a 7-fer in Edgbaston but India still lost the match.


Lyon hasn't won Australia any games in Asia. The only bowler who's won them a match in Asia in recent times is O' Keefe.

Lyon was pretty good against India as well and helped Australia win that first match. He's also won them several games in Australia where a HTB like Ashwin couldn't do anything of note.
 
Lyon wins this by a mile.

Ashwin seems a one-trick pony who can only thrive on spinning wickets. Jadeja is much better than him.

Back then I didn’t agree with it but now it’s a nobrainer

Honestly. I always had Ashwin as someone who would constantly improve his game but he has stagnated
 
Ashwin has been a major disappointment with the ball in this series. Failed to step up when India needed him most. I mean, you can't get any better conditions for spin-bowling in England than the conditions India got at Southampton. But Ashwin, who is generally known for his discipline kept trying so many different variations and line and lengths. He will almost certainly be replaced by Jadeja in the next test
 
One stunning stat from Ashwin is he has taken 121 wickets against England, South Africa and NZ.

118 at home and 3 away.

Holla! I bet it isn't much different now either.
 
Highly overrated bowler. Has never taken 20 wickets in a series outside Asia.

Kumble atleast had 4-5 series outside Asia where he bowled brilliantly. For Ashwin, it is 1, i.e. West Indies 2016.

His batting is also overrated. A minnow-basher with the bat.

Kapil Dev is a superior test cricketer than him.
 
Lyon was pretty good against India as well and helped Australia win that first match.

He's also won them several games in Australia where a HTB like Ashwin couldn't do anything of note.

Lyon has never won Australia a match in Asia, let alone India.

Steve O' Keefe won Australia that match in Pune by taking 12 wickets

And of course Lyon has a better record in Australia. That's his home country.

And Ashwin has done much better in India than Lyon because that's Ashwin's home country.

In every other country their numbers are the same.

Think before you speak, Bilal.
 
Lyon has better averages in Australia, England, South Africa and unlike Ashwin, has also bowled in New Zealand and the UAE. Ashwin has a better average in India and Sri Lanka. Based on these stats, I can't see why you can't see that Lyon is better.

Lyon and Ashwin average the same in Eng.

Lyon averages better in his backyard than Ashwin and vice versa.

Only in SA does Lyon avg better than Ashwin. But in reality, both their averages in SA are bad.

As far as UAE is concerned, Lyon's average there is 142

There is no clear winner here unless you're wearing green-tinted glasses.
 
If you asked me last year I would have said Ashwin with Lyon narrowing the gap but now having seen him get outbowled by Moeen Ali and by Jadeja during India's home series against England on the 2 flattest decks (1st and last test), I'm not convinced he is better than Lyon and should be selected as India's no 1 spinner.

Having said that only a fanatic would rate Moeen Ali over Ashwin. The former averages 40 in tests and 50 away from home whereas the latter averages 22 at home and 31-32 away from home.
 
Lyon and Ashwin average the same in Eng.

Lyon averages better in his backyard than Ashwin and vice versa.

Only in SA does Lyon avg better than Ashwin. But in reality, both their averages in SA are bad.

As far as UAE is concerned, Lyon's average there is 142

There is no clear winner here unless you're wearing green-tinted glasses.

What is Ashwin's average in the UAE? NZ? No point mentioning venues where they haven't both played although Lyon obviously deserves respect for actually having bowled against the best team against spin and in conditions that are tough for spinners. So Lyon averages better in England and South Africa as well as Australia, while Ashwin averages better in India and Sri Lanka (?)

Although I'd pick Lyon, this one can go either way. However, this series showed that Yasir Shah is clearly a better spin bowler than Ashwin.
 
Lyon & Maharaj are better than Ashwin but i don't still agree that mooen is better bowler in all conditions compared to Ashwin.
 
What is Ashwin's average in the UAE? NZ? No point mentioning venues where they haven't both played although Lyon obviously deserves respect for actually having bowled against the best team against spin and in conditions that are tough for spinners. So Lyon averages better in England and South Africa as well as Australia, while Ashwin averages better in India and Sri Lanka (?)

Although I'd pick Lyon, this one can go either way. However, this series showed that Yasir Shah is clearly a better spin bowler than Ashwin.

Whatttt? LMAO! :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Okay...back to serious topics.


And about Yasir Shah. He's a very good leggie. But let him get to at least half of Ashwin's wickets and then we'll think about it.

Anyway Bilal, many have pointed out to to me your incredible bias. And we all know that your bias is not for cricketing reasons.

So I'm going to stop wasting my time on you from now. Cheers! :)
 
Another cheap 5fer. I will take a 4fer every time if given a chance to bowl at this Indian tail.
 
I would take Lyon. Remarkable improvement. He will finish as the better bowler when both finish playing as well.
 
Offspinners in general face a torrid time in Australia. Graeme Swann himself was reduced to a supporting role and Murlitharan had a poor record in Australia. Saqlain barring that one innings was dealt with very easily in these conditions.

But my word has Nathan Lyon really punched above his weight for a conventional offspinner without a doosra. Knows how to take wickets and gets prodigious turn on the ball and has an amazing record in Australia. Even in the UAE he looked like a much improved bowler
 
Lyon by a mile. A very underrated off spinner and if he was playing regularly in Asia, he would hv surpassed Ashwin, Herath, Ajmal etc.
 
Lyon has gotten quite a bunch of cheap wickets thanks to our idiot bats but obviously he has been the superior spinner.

Ashwin's lack of revs is hurting him. He doesn't seem to hav the ability to impart enough energy while release.

So he has to make it up with other attributes like speed variation, working over batsmen abd what not.

Plus he seems to bowl well in one innings and go off colour in another.

Where is the Ashwin who bowled in WI in 2016?

Without a doubt, that's the best he has ever bowled even though he was expensive.
 
Lyon has gotten quite a bunch of cheap wickets thanks to our idiot bats but obviously he has been the superior spinner.

Ashwin's lack of revs is hurting him. He doesn't seem to hav the ability to impart enough energy while release.

So he has to make it up with other attributes like speed variation, working over batsmen abd what not.

Plus he seems to bowl well in one innings and go off colour in another.

Where is the Ashwin who bowled in WI in 2016?

Without a doubt, that's the best he has ever bowled even though he was expensive.

Ashwin is finished after that sports Hernia. He got outbowled by Moeen Ali in Southampton test and now by Lyon in Adelaide. Lyon was constantly getting turn and bounce from that rough patch but Ashwin was simply darting and finding it tough to pitch a ball in the rough. Infact, I am being honest enough, even Vihary bowled better here than what Ashwin did in last test. Considering his poor fitness to go with poor form in both bat and ball, I think he should call it a day and let younger spinners took over.
 
Ashwin is finished after that sports Hernia. He got outbowled by Moeen Ali in Southampton test and now by Lyon in Adelaide. Lyon was constantly getting turn and bounce from that rough patch but Ashwin was simply darting and finding it tough to pitch a ball in the rough. Infact, I am being honest enough, even Vihary bowled better here than what Ashwin did in last test. Considering his poor fitness to go with poor form in both bat and ball, I think he should call it a day and let younger spinners took over.

Not sure if Vihari can bowl like Ashwin did in Edgbaston or Adelaide first innings.

I think people are way over-rating Vihari cos he got some bounce last innings.

His FC stats are beyond mediocre but he can be a handy support bowler.

And yes, if injuries are frequent, Ashwin is done.

Another problem with Ashwin is lack of a repetitive action.
 
Jadeja has been better than Ashwin recently with both bat and ball.Not sure why he's been ignored
 
Jadeja has been better than Ashwin recently with both bat and ball.Not sure why he's been ignored

Perception problem.

He's extremely ill treated.

People already think Kuldeep is a better option than Jaddu.

I think we were one of the few who predicted Kuldeep may be taken apart in Lord's.
 
Lyon has actually been really good everywhere unlike Ashwin. Being the sole spinner in a bowling lineup isn't easy, especially when travelling to Asia. Ashwin's decline might have already begun. I won't be surprised if he retires within 3 years even.
 
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