One good Test then endless failure: Yasir Shah's record in SENA

[Junaids]

The last few weeks have been an eye-opener for me.

I have worked out that not only does Yasir Shah fail endlessly in Australia, England, New Zealand and South Africa, but I have realized that there is almost certainly no justification for using a leg-spinner as a frontline bowler there. His numbers expose the practice completely.

Yasir Shah has played 15 Test matches in SENA, which is a huge sample size. And the numbers expose him totally.

His average is awful. He hardly ever bowls a maiden over in SENA. And in 11 innings out of 24 he has an Economy Rate worse than 4.00, which in Test cricket is unforgiveable. (Italics below denote economy rate worse than 4.00).

ENGLAND 2016
TEST 1: On SENA debut, at Lords in 2016, Yasir Shah took 6-72 and 4-69. And that was the last time his bowling average in SENA ever remained under 35!
TEST 2: 1-213 and 0-53 - average deteriorated to 37.
TEST 3: 1-64 and 2-172 - average deteriorated to 45.92
TEST 4: 0-60 and 5-71 - average slightly improved to 40.73

NEW ZEALAND AND AUSTRALIA 2016-2017
TEST 1 - 0-16 and 0-45 - average worsened to 43.94
TEST 2: 2-129 and 1-45 - average worsened to 45.86
TEST 3: 3-207 - average deteriorated again to 48.64
TEST 4: 1-167 and 1-124 - average collapsed to 55.81

SOUTH AFRICA 2018-19
TEST 1: 0-24 and 1-20 - average improved slightly to 55.39
TEST 2: 0-79 - average worsened to 58.21

AUSTRALIA 2019-20
TEST 1: 4-205 - average improved (!!!!) to 57.34
TEST 2: 0-197 - average deteriorated to 63.50 (but he did hit a ton!)

ENGLAND 2020
TEST 1 - 4-66 and 4-99 - average improved to 54.92
TEST 2: 1-30 - average improved to 54.31
TEST 3: 2-173 - average deteriorated back down to 55.81.

In effect, Pakistan are using Yasir Shah in SENA as if he was Shane Warne: a stock bowler who can keep the run rate in control and then take wickets in the fourth innings.

But Yasir Shah is completely failing to do so. His actual SENA record is:

YASIR SHAH
611 overs
59 maidens
2400 runs
43 wickets
AVERAGE 55.81
Strike Rate 85.2
Economy rate 3.92

I am not going to argue that the alternative is Shadab Khan because it is not - the alternative in SENA is a fourth quick.

For the record, Shadab Khan's record in SENA (excluding Ireland just as I excluded the West Indies for Yasir Shah) is:
71 overs
6 maidens
274 runs
9 wickets
AVERAGE 30.44
Strike Rate 47.33
Economy rate 3.86

……………………………………………………………………………………………….

I genuinely do not understand why Pakistan persists with Yasir Shah as a specialist leg-spinner in SENA.

Yasir Shah is rubbish in this role. But why does Misbah think that this role even exists, let alone needs filling?

He literally had one good Test, then his average blew out to over 40 in his 3rd Test, and has got worse and worse and worse ever since.

 

[Junaids]

Incidentally, there are very strong comparisons with none other than......Umar Akmal.

Yasir Shah has played 15 Tests in SENA, with a great debut followed by recurrent failure.
Umar Akmal has played 12 Tests in SENA, with a great debut followed by recurrent failure.

UMAR AKMAL SENA BATTING AVERAGE: 37.18
UMAR AKMAL SENA BATTING AVERAGE AFTER HIS FIRST TEST: 30.70

YASIR SHAH SENA BOWLING AVERAGE: 55.81
YASIR SHAH SENA BOWLING AVERAGE AFTER HIS FIRST TEST: 68.45

So the records of Umar Akmal and Yasir Shah have an identical pattern in SENA - except Umar Akmal's performances are at a much higher level than Yasir Shah's.

 

[Kroll]

The one good test has now made him undroppable so expect some more phainty when he goes over to NZ.

 

[Junaids]

In 7 innings out of 24 Yasir Shah has conceded over 160 runs in an innings.

That's a catastrophic record.

 

[Junaids]

Pakistan's next away series outside Asia is in New Zealand, with a Kookaburra ball.

YASIR SHAH's SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE RECORD WITH A KOOKABURRA BALL

8 Tests
275 overs
16 maidens
1258 runs
13 wickets
5 wicket innings 0
10 wicket matches 0
AVERAGE 96.76
Strike Rate 126.9
Economy Rate 4.57

This is not misleading - look at Yasir Shah's innings by innings record......

NEW ZEALAND AND AUSTRALIA 2016-2017
TEST 1 - 0-16 and 0-45
TEST 2: 2-129 and 1-45
TEST 3: 3-207
TEST 4: 1-167 and 1-124

SOUTH AFRICA 2018-19
TEST 1: 0-24 and 1-20
TEST 2: 0-79

AUSTRALIA 2019-20
TEST 1: 4-205
TEST 2: 0-197

 

[Junaids]

Yasir Shah's FIRST EIGHT Tests in SENA
27 wickets in 8 Tests
AVERAGE 55.81
Strike Rate 88.80
Economy Rate 3.77

Yasir Shah's most recent 7 Tests in SENA
16 wickets in 7 Tests
AVERAGE 55.81
Strike Rate 79.20
Economy Rate 4.22

The astonishing thing is that he is not getting any better.

His average of 55.81 has not changed from his first 8 SENA Tests to the last 7.

 

[anakwalajinn]

What does SENA stand for?

 

[Kroll]

What does SENA stand for?

South Africa, England, New Zealand, Australia

 

[Junaids]

What does SENA stand for?

Basically, Pakistan has a fairly strong history in England and New Zealand, and should be able to rack up a lot of World Test Championship points there. It's the difference between the current 5th place (166 points, which will rise to 226 if they win their home Test v Bangladesh) and 3rd place (England is on 292 points).

But Pakistan needs to go back to collecting those points in England and New Zealand - and ultimately Australia and South Africa too.

And no team can give one of their 4 specialist bowling places in SENA to guy who averages 56 runs per wicket and goes for 4 runs per over.

Yasir Shah goes far too often for 40-3-170-2. And no team can carry that outside Asia.

 

[Buffet]

Yasir is surely not some great bowler, but your post is projecting as if Pakistan will suddenly start bowling great if you replace Yasir with a 4th pacer. It has no merit.

Here are some pacers who have played recently and their stats after 2016,

Wahab : 38 ( 7 tests)

Shaheen: 36 ( 7 tests)

Rahat : 43 ( 5 tests )

Hasan Ali : 38 ( 4 tests )

Abbas : 33 ( 8 tests )

Naseem : 69 ( 4 tests


Yah, I am aware of fact that Pakistan's best performers are never selected and once they are selected they suddenly become 2nd grade when compared to bowlers who are not selected yet.

Also, let's not put part timers stats. Stick to bowlers.


If we stick to current 3 bowlers, you have

Naseem, Shaeen and Abbas. These three could not bowl even 10-15 overs in the first day of test match. If you take out spin then I am not sure they will even last 80 overs unless 4th bowler bowls 1/3rd of overs on first day of test itself.

Yes, if you get green pitch and opposition can be bowled out quickly having 4 pacers will work, but with current 3 and addition of one more, it will be a huge trouble in normal pitch.


I don't see how Pakistan bowling will start performing by simply replacing Yasir by 4th pacer. If Pakistan had 4 good pacers then I will agree, but their pace usnit has been very ordinary for a while and there is no evidence that it has become good right now.

Yasir has not been great, but putting 4th pacer with current three won't make a good bowling unit.

 

[Buffet]

There is only one reason for a spinner to bowl 30 overs on first day in Eng. Pacers are toothless. By replacing Yasir, you can not solve this issue.

If a 4th pacers bowls anywhere close to overs Yasir bowls, I have no doubt that his bowling average will be closer to 50-60 as well. No spinners should be bowling 30 overs in first day in Eng. No wonder Yasir has gone for 160+ so many times.

 

[JaDed]

What does SENA stand for?

Looking at your debut and number of posts you been gone too long, welcome back.. nowadays Asians don't care about Asia, it's all about SENA, and the English care about SENA as well lol.

 

[Junaids]

There is only one reason for a spinner to bowl 30 overs on first day in Eng. Pacers are toothless. By replacing Yasir, you can not solve this issue.

If a 4th pacers bowls anywhere close to overs Yasir bowls, I have no doubt that his bowling average will be closer to 50-60 as well. No spinners should be bowling 30 overs in first day in Eng. No wonder Yasir has gone for 160+ so many times.

Actually, just go back to the recent Third Test at Southampton.

Pakistan bowled first.

After 1 hour England was 48-1 after 13 overs. Shaheen Shah Afridi was out of the attack, and Mohammad Abbas was completely toothless.

After drinks, Pakistan should have had two fresh quick bowlers to use the still-new Dukes ball. But they only had one, so as ever the Misbah-Azhar strategy was used of bringing Yasir Shah into the attack and keeping him on indefinitely from one end.

The quicks weren't failing. There just weren't enough of them - because Yasir Shah had replaced one of them.

That's the difference between Yasir Shah and Shadab Khan. Yasir can't bat higher than Number 8, so he REPLACES the fourth quick, whereas two years earlier in England Pakistan batted Shadab at Number 7, followed by four quicks.

I've covered this in another thread: the alternative in SENA to Yasir Shah is a fourth quick. Shadab is the alternative to Fawad Alam, not Yasir Shah.

In SENA, Faheem Ashraf averaged 26, Hasan Ali averages 34 and Yasir Shah averages 56. But more than that, Faheem and Hasan concede runs at a much slower rate in SENA than Yasir Shah does.

 

[Buffet]

Actually, just go back to the recent Third Test at Southampton.

Pakistan bowled first.

After 1 hour England was 48-1 after 13 overs. Shaheen Shah Afridi was out of the attack, and Mohammad Abbas was completely toothless.

13 overs of bowling, you see that's the problem. If 3 quicks can't bowl 25 overs on first day in test in Eng then it's the problem with 3 quicks.

If 3 first choice quicks are toothless then adding 4th choice quick won't make much difference.

 

[Junaids]

13 overs of bowling, you see that's the problem. If 3 quicks can't bowl 25 overs on first day in test in Eng then it's the problem with 3 quicks.

If 3 first choice quicks are toothless then adding 4th choice quick won't make much difference.

Let me reword that.

HOUR 1:
BEHIND THE WIND: Shaheen bowls 7 overs
INTO THE WIND: Abbas bowls 6 overs

HOUR 2:
BEHIND THE WIND: Naseem comes on for Shaheen
INTO THE WIND: THERE IS NO QUICK LEFT TO BOWL THE 14th OVER!!!!!!

That's what happens when Yasir Shah is picked in SENA. The new ball is only 14 overs old, and there's no quick bowler left to bowl from one end!

 

[Zaz]

In those tests yasir has gone for runs partly due to the pacers being toothless

Which other country relies on their spinner overseas as much as pakistan?

Id like to see the respective records of the pacers in those tests

Its essy to blame yasir but hes always overbowled Theres no situation where a leggie should bowl 30 overs on a day one pitch overseas

Its not his failure but the failure of the pacers to take wkts and make inroads which then falls on his shoulders

 

[shamaan]

In those tests yasir has gone for runs partly due to the pacers being toothless

Which other country relies on their spinner overseas as much as pakistan?

Id like to see the respective records of the pacers in those tests

Its essy to blame yasir but hes always overbowled Theres no situation where a leggie should bowl 30 overs on a day one pitch overseas

Its not his failure but the failure of the pacers to take wkts and make inroads which then falls on his shoulders

Management need to take responsibility if they belive a spinner why play a spinner for the sake of it

 

[Buffet]

Let me reword that.

HOUR 1:
BEHIND THE WIND: Shaheen bowls 7 overs
INTO THE WIND: Abbas bowls 6 overs

HOUR 2:
BEHIND THE WIND: Naseem comes on for Shaheen
INTO THE WIND: THERE IS NO QUICK LEFT TO BOWL THE 14th OVER!!!!!!

That's what happens when Yasir Shah is picked in SENA. The new ball is only 14 overs old, and there's no quick bowler left to bowl from one end!

3 quicks from different teams have often bowled 25 overs in rotation many times. It's not a new concept.

 

[Titan24]

Yasir bowled well in last series rather was outstanding in the first test vs Eng but its also not a hidden fact that his economy has been deteriorating in last couple of years which is influenced by SENA tours. His economy was 4.51 in 2019 and has been 3.71 in 2020 till now. Last couple of years have been the worst in terms of control but, still when on song he is probably as good as anybody I have ever seen.

However, problem comes in when Pak usually bowls him tons and tons of overs which is definitely tough but, going at close to 4 in those overs especially in SENA can be counterproductive especially when two out of three pacers are not only inexperienced at Test level but, at FC level as well.

I have said it multiple times that in SENA there is no specialist leggy in the last decade or so to have much successful, teams dont even play leggies in SENA, last one who played was probably Todd Astle in Aus for one match which was a rare occurrence.

Lets have a comparable look at Abdul Rehman (SLA) who was the second highest wicket taker in 2010-11 Pak’s successful tour of NZ with 11 wickets in 2 games and importantly with the economy of 2.24. Yes Gul bowled well too and overall the bowling attack complemented each other with good pressure building bowling.

I am not saying Pak’s bowling will become world beater if Yasir is rested and a decent SLA like Zafar Gohar or offie like Sajid Khan plays but that would tick one thing which is really important in SENA if they can bowl economically. Even last successful tour of India in Aus they had Ashwin the off spinner who complemented the overall attack well and even for Srl’s success in SA they had Embuldenya and De Silva who both bowled below the economy of under 3.5.

There must be a reason that no team plays a leggy in SENA and that is most probably the control which finger spinners offer in a better way. A spinner can rarely win you a match in SENA alone so if he has to do a supporting role more often then not and bowl a lot of overs, being economical is really important.

Yasir has been outstanding over the years and he should obviously be in the squad but, a finger spinner needs to be inducted to see how it goes. Last one tried was Bilal Asif couple of years ago in UAE.

 

[Junaids]

In those tests yasir has gone for runs partly due to the pacers being toothless

Which other country relies on their spinner overseas as much as pakistan?

Id like to see the respective records of the pacers in those tests

Its essy to blame yasir but hes always overbowled Theres no situation where a leggie should bowl 30 overs on a day one pitch overseas

Its not his failure but the failure of the pacers to take wkts and make inroads which then falls on his shoulders

That makes for a lovely, elegant comparison.

18 months ago in South Africa, Yasir Shah played the first 2 Tests as the fourth bowler, while in the Third Test he was replaced by Faheem Ashraf.

Yasir Shah in Tests 1 and 2
4-0-24-0
7.4-1-20-1
21-1-9-79-0
TOTAL 32.4-2-123-1

Faheem Ashraf in Test 3
15-2-57-3
14-3-42-3
TOTAL 29-5-99-6

Alternatively, compare the same two bowlers in England, where Faheem was the fourth bowler in 2018 and Yasir Shah in 2020

Yasir Shah
17.2-3-58-4
18-2-66-4
11-2-30-1
39-3-173-2
TOTAL 85-9-327-11

Faheem Ashraf
9-2-28-1
9-2-31-0
20-4-60-3
TOTAL 38-8-119-4

 

[Titan24]

Just to add to my post Pakistan’s over reliance on Yasir to win a match in SENA is wrong and is rarely gonna bring in results. They need to sort their pace attack and then add in a decent support finger spinner. Leggies are not part of any success recipe in SENA we have seen for a decade with maybe 1-2 exceptions, so over relying on a leggy is always gonna have low probability of success.

 

[Junaids]

So comparing like with like, in South Africa and England:

Yasir Shah: 117.4-11-450-12
Average 37.50
Strike Rate 58.83
Economy 3.85

Faheem Ashraf: 67-13-218-10
Average 21.80
Strike Rate 40.20
Economy 3.25

Yasir Shah bowled 11 maidens in 117.4 overs.
Faheem Ashraf bowled 13 maidens in 67 overs.

It just highlights that in SENA a top class spinner is less useful than a mediocre fourth seamer.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=142432]Titan24[/MENTION]
I agree - but you need a finger spinner who can bat in the Top Seven like Shadab Khan can.

I think my figures make an overwhelming case for a fourth quick, plus a spinning all-rounder. And I agree that there may be better control with Zafar Gohar than a leggie - I'm just not sure that he is a good enough batsman.

But the stats for Faheem Ashraf compared with Yasir Shah are devastating.

 

[Savak]

Shadab should be the spinner in Sena conditions, cannot do much worse than Yasir

 

[Titan24]

[MENTION=142432]Titan24[/MENTION]
I agree - but you need a finger spinner who can bat in the Top Seven like Shadab Khan can.

I think my figures make an overwhelming case for a fourth quick, plus a spinning all-rounder. And I agree that there may be better control with Zafar Gohar than a leggie - I'm just not sure that he is a good enough batsman.

But the stats for Faheem Ashraf compared with Yasir Shah are devastating.

I agree, Shadab is technically the best batsman among all the all rounders we have so he can definitely play as an all rounder. Finger spinners like Zafar Gohar and Sajid Khan are decent lower order batsmen with FC centuries as well but I am suggesting them as specialist spinner where conditions allow and they are decent enough batsmen to bat at no 8.

I personally will have Shadab at no 7 in most conditions and the 4th bowling option at no 8 can be rotated between Faheem, Amad, Yamin, Zafar, Sajid depending upon the conditions to have decent batting depth along with 5 bowlers.

Considering the inexperience in young pacers and overall struggles in batting this is the best I can think of in all the conditions. I hope Shadab plays most FC matches this season to polish his bowling and batting further.

 

[warcry]

I thought Yasir Shah's performance in the series against England was okay overall.

however, someone hide his passport when we travel to new zealand australia or south africa.
We are better off playing 4 fast bowlers there anyway (and maybe a fast bowling allrounder to be the fifth bowler in australia). If only our selector could see this. and just not play a spinner.

 

[Titan24]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] but, if we are going with the 4 man attack I dont think Shadab can make it as the main spinner. I think Zafar and Sajid can play the role necessary as specialist spinner for SENA better. Though I would like Pakistan to develop Shadab as an allrounder as he is technically much better than any all rounder we have seen in recent times for Pakistan at test level, so he makes the team at no 7 as an all rounder but not at no 8 as the lead spinner currently atleast.

As I explained the reasons in my post, I am not a fan of having a leggy in SENA as the main spinner in the 4 bowling options attack unless that leggy is Warne. As an all rounder in 4 man pace attack or as a support to the main spinner, he has definitely some potential if polished properly.

 

[Ab Fan]

In South Africa, New Zealand and Australia (except Sydney), Pakistan can play with four pacers and Shadab as fifth bowling option.

Yasir is a wicket taker but attacking players can take on him and score very quick runs, putting pressure back to Pakistan.

 

[shaz619]

This thread only highlights to me that others were ineffective and toothless, in fact on the recent tour Yasir is the only bowler who bowled with a bit of dignity and posed a threat. The fact that Pakistan rely on him so much negates his effectiveness, he is the best Test leg spinner in the world and these are not my words, but the words of the great Shane Warne! but as said by Warne himself, a leggie needs positive fields and beyond that support is needed from the pacers, expecting miracles from your leggie in SENA every time is too much but the irony is that Pakistans fortunes overseas in the bowling department are always pinned on Yasir because no one else is capable of winning Tests for pak with their bowling so this a very ignorant Mancunian thread! [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

 

[Zaz]

Faheem played a handful of tests You cant compare his output with yasir

I want to see the results of the main pacers when yasirs gone for over a ton overseas

The fact is hes overbowled on unresponsive pitches where the pacers have failed too

Leggies arenr supposed to be used as workhorses They need to be managed and pulled out as trump cards at the right time

Yasir is definetly a big asset But pakistan look to him too much because of a lack of match winning pace options

See the stats below of the no of overs 3 leggies have bowled per test over their careers

Even a great like warne a match winner in most countries wasnt overbowled or used as much as yasir shah

Yasir is avging more overs per test than shane warne this tells you how badly yasir is being used sometimes

Shane Warne 46.79 overs a test
Danish Kaneria 48.34 overs a test
Yasir shah 50.79 overs a test

 

[shaz619]

In South Africa, New Zealand and Australia (except Sydney), Pakistan can play with four pacers and Shadab as fifth bowling option.

Yasir is a wicket taker but attacking players can take on him and score very quick runs, putting pressure back to Pakistan.

I know Shadab is a googly specialist but is he is the rebirth of Anil Kumble to ? considering you probably believe in reincarnation

 

[Major]

Good bowler, and dont need stats to make such judgement. I watch his test games.

He needs support of Pace bowlers or another spinner. When pacers fail, he is forced to bowl bulk of the overs and gets hit for runs.

People dont know this, but after the amount of number of matches Yasir has played he is porbably in the top 2 wicket takers list.

 

[MMHS]

This thread only highlights to me that others were ineffective and toothless, in fact on the recent tour Yasir is the only bowler who bowled with a bit of dignity and posed a threat. The fact that Pakistan rely on him so much negates his effectiveness, he is the best Test leg spinner in the world and these are not my words, but the words of the great Shane Warne! but as said by Warne himself, a leggie needs positive fields and beyond that support is needed from the pacers, expecting miracles from your leggie in SENA every time is too much but the irony is that Pakistans fortunes overseas in the bowling department are always pinned on Yasir because no one else is capable of winning Tests for pak with their bowling so this a very ignorant Mancunian thread! [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]

The astonishing height of hypocrisy here actually kept me out of this thread & I won’t have posted here unless for you.... [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] has been selling the idea for years that in SENA spinners are there for 4th innings, basically a passenger for for three - then he is justifying why PAK should pick four pacers and a “totka” spinner so that PAK captain can operate with four pacers, as if..... With Yasir bowling 29 overs in first day, still PAKs three pacers pee & poo comes out together by fifth hour .... imagine what they will do with fourth one bowling average 20-21 overs each.


[MENTION=21715]Zaz[/MENTION] - your stats doesn’t tell the whole story bro. Warne bowled that amount when his batsmen batted for average 220+ overs per Test, means he got enough rest in between and he had other three bowlers putting pressure as well, one of them bowled more overs than most spinners for 100+!Test career.

The way data is being used here, best counter measure is to promote Fawad - after three SENA Tests, he averaged 23.00 and being spinner age shouldn’t be a big issue here - why should he be dropped for Shadab?

 

[shaz619]

The astonishing height of hypocrisy here actually kept me out of this thread & I won’t have posted here unless for you.... [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] has been selling the idea for years that in SENA spinners are there for 4th innings, basically a passenger for for three - then he is justifying why PAK should pick four pacers and a “totka” spinner so that PAK captain can operate with four pacers, as if..... With Yasir bowling 29 overs in first day, still PAKs three pacers pee & poo comes out together by fifth hour .... imagine what they will do with fourth one bowling average 20-21 overs each.



[MENTION=21715]Zaz[/MENTION] - your stats doesn’t tell the whole story bro. Warne bowled that amount when his batsmen batted for average 220+ overs per Test, means he got enough rest in between and he had other three bowlers putting pressure as well, one of them bowled more overs than most spinners for 100+!Test career.

The way data is being used here, best counter measure is to promote Fawad - after three SENA Tests, he averaged 23.00 and being spinner age shouldn’t be a big issue here - why should he be dropped for Shadab?

Great post, I would actually love to see Shadab in a similar role just for the sake of it; I wonder if the captain would even trust him with as many overs and number to, if he did I wonder what the result would it. It's diabolical ignorance of a monumental order to repeatedly make comments such as 'Shadab can't do any worse' when folk fail to comprehend Yasir's value and also how Shadab doesn't even have a stock ball for crying out loud. But you summed it up nicely how he is run into the ground and ineffectiveness of the others, Pak have a very infant and pretty dreadful pace attack; it amuses me how Yasir always gets stick

 

[Junaids]

I thought Yasir Shah's performance in the series against England was okay overall.

however, someone hide his passport when we travel to new zealand australia or south africa.
We are better off playing 4 fast bowlers there anyway (and maybe a fast bowling allrounder to be the fifth bowler in australia). If only our selector could see this. and just not play a spinner.

The problem is this.

Yes, Yasir Shah is as good a specialist leggie as you are likely to get in SENA conditions.

But then you compare his record in 15 SENA Tests with Faheem Ashraf and with Hasan Ali, and it is obvious that Yasir Shah is massively overbowled when he plays in SENA.

And why is he so overbowled?

Look back at the 2018 tour of England and compare it with the 2020 tour.

In 2018, there were four quicks plus Shadab Khan in place of the sixth batsman
1. Each quick bowler only had to bowl 6 overs per session in a 4 pacer + 1 part-time spinner attack.
2. Each quick bowler got 4 minutes rest between overs.
3. 24 overs per session (out of 30) were bowled by quick bowlers who on average bowled a maiden every 3.5 overs.

In 2020 there were three quicks plus Yasir Shah
1. Each quick bowled 15% more overs per day, and had shorter breaks between spells.
2. When Yasir bowls, the quick at the other end only gets 3 minutes rest between overs.
3. Yasir bowled 10 overs per session, only bowling 1 maiden every 10 overs.

 

[Junaids]

The astonishing height of hypocrisy here actually kept me out of this thread & I won’t have posted here unless for you.... [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] has been selling the idea for years that in SENA spinners are there for 4th innings, basically a passenger for for three - then he is justifying why PAK should pick four pacers and a “totka” spinner so that PAK captain can operate with four pacers, as if..... With Yasir bowling 29 overs in first day, still PAKs three pacers pee & poo comes out together by fifth hour .... imagine what they will do with fourth one bowling average 20-21 overs each.



[MENTION=21715]Zaz[/MENTION] - your stats doesn’t tell the whole story bro. Warne bowled that amount when his batsmen batted for average 220+ overs per Test, means he got enough rest in between and he had other three bowlers putting pressure as well, one of them bowled more overs than most spinners for 100+!Test career.

The way data is being used here, best counter measure is to promote Fawad - after three SENA Tests, he averaged 23.00 and being spinner age shouldn’t be a big issue here - why should he be dropped for Shadab?

England plays 4 quicks in SENA.
New Zealand plays 4 quicks in SENA.
South Africa plays 4 quicks in SENA.
Australia played 4 quicks in SENA while they had Shane Watson, and they have only stopped recently because Mitchell Marsh's batting average is just 25.20 - TWENTY FIVE PERCENT WORSE THAN SHADAB KHAN - and with Tim Paine also not the batsman he used to be, they can't afford to carry Marsh and Paine at 6 and 7.

But it took Australia 32 Test matches of trying to develop Mitch Marsh as their Number 6 (and fourth quick) before they gave up hope.

Mitch Marsh's record after 32 Tests is:
1260 runs at 25.20
42 wickets at 38.64

Shadab Khan after 6 Tests has the following record for the sake of comparison:
300 runs at 33.33
14 wickets at 36.64

That is what is so frustrating in this space.

Other teams - even Australia - persist with a Number 7 all-rounder with inferior records to Shadab Khan. Ravindra Jadeja also has an inferior record to him Outside Asia.

Pakistan don't play their world-class spinning all-rounder on the basis that they have a better specialist spinner.

But that specialist spinner averages 55.81 Outside Asia and selecting him forces them to sacrifice their fourth quick, even though both Faheem Ashraf and Hasan Ali have superior records as a fourth bowler in SENA compared with Yasir Shah.

PAKISTAN FOURTH BOWLERS IN SENA

1. Average
Faheem Ashraf 26.09
Hasan Ali 34.20
Yasir Shah 55.81

2. Strike Rate
Faheem Ashraf 49.00
Hasan Ali 62.60
Yasir Shah 85.20

3. Economy Rate
Faheem Ashraf 3.18
Hasan Ali 3.27
Yasir Shah 3.92

Yasir Shah is a better spinner than Shadab Khan. But in SENA he is an inferior bowler to Faheem Ashraf or Hasan Ali.

 

[Junaids]

The astonishing height of hypocrisy here actually kept me out of this thread & I won’t have posted here unless for you.... [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] has been selling the idea for years that in SENA spinners are there for 4th innings, basically a passenger for for three - then he is justifying why PAK should pick four pacers and a “totka” spinner so that PAK captain can operate with four pacers, as if..... With Yasir bowling 29 overs in first day, still PAKs three pacers pee & poo comes out together by fifth hour .... imagine what they will do with fourth one bowling average 20-21 overs each.



[MENTION=21715]

The way data is being used here, best counter measure is to promote Fawad - after three SENA Tests, he averaged 23.00 and being spinner age shouldn’t be a big issue here - why should he be dropped for Shadab?

So let me get this right.

1. Shadab Khan got dropped after scoring 60 runs in a Test and taking 2-47.

2. A 21 year old with that level of performance was dropped for a 34 year old who scored 0, 21 and 0 not out at an average of 10.50.

3. You want to go into a Test series in New Zealand one pace bowler short, so that you can accommodate a 34 year old specialist spinner who averages 96 with the ball after 6 Tests in the southern hemisphere.

4. You are accommodating that 34 year old specialist spinner with a bowling average of 96 instead of a 27 year old quick who can bat whose bowling average in SENA is 26, and ahead of a 26 year old quick who can slog whose bowling average in SENA is 34.

 

[Kroll]

Really, the past it players Yasir, Shafiq and Azhar need to be booted asap but the axis of incompetence will ensure they are the first names on the flight to NZ.

 

[gazza619]

Figures sometimes lie.

I am a bit confused about Shadab Khan and about his attitude, willingness and desire to succeed at test level. He is a well desired T20 entity and has a decent demand world wide so sooner or later he will say good bye to test cricket anyway.

I must say about Yasir Shah though that he surprised me on England tour. Yes he didnt take a load of wickets but I could see the zip in his bowling which was missing for the last year or so. Yasir is a very good no.8 batsman, a team player, decent fielder. You know what, we still have a good 4 years of Yasir Shah. What we really also need in the eleven is a tight left spinner (Zafar Gohar?) who can provide 15 solid overs in the day for 35 runs. That would really put breaks on the opposition and give the breather to the other bowlers.

Imagine:
1. Shaheen
2. Abbass
3. Naseem (or someone else)
4. Yasir
5. Zafar

I think the above bowling unit would do well in most conditions.

 

[Junaids]

Figures sometimes lie.

I am a bit confused about Shadab Khan and about his attitude, willingness and desire to succeed at test level. He is a well desired T20 entity and has a decent demand world wide so sooner or later he will say good bye to test cricket anyway.

I must say about Yasir Shah though that he surprised me on England tour. Yes he didnt take a load of wickets but I could see the zip in his bowling which was missing for the last year or so. Yasir is a very good no.8 batsman, a team player, decent fielder. You know what, we still have a good 4 years of Yasir Shah. What we really also need in the eleven is a tight left spinner (Zafar Gohar?) who can provide 15 solid overs in the day for 35 runs. That would really put breaks on the opposition and give the breather to the other bowlers.

Imagine:
1. Shaheen
2. Abbass
3. Naseem (or someone else)
4. Yasir
5. Zafar

I think the above bowling unit would do well in most conditions.

The problem is that you have:

3 x Number Elevens
2 x Number Eights

You can't field a team like that - when the batting is reduced to 140-5 they are going to be 160 all out.

And you over-rate Yasir Shah's batting...….

 

[Junaids]

Figures sometimes lie.

I am a bit confused about Shadab Khan and about his attitude, willingness and desire to succeed at test level. He is a well desired T20 entity and has a decent demand world wide so sooner or later he will say good bye to test cricket anyway.

I must say about Yasir Shah though that he surprised me on England tour. Yes he didnt take a load of wickets but I could see the zip in his bowling which was missing for the last year or so. Yasir is a very good no.8 batsman, a team player, decent fielder. You know what, we still have a good 4 years of Yasir Shah. What we really also need in the eleven is a tight left spinner (Zafar Gohar?) who can provide 15 solid overs in the day for 35 runs. That would really put breaks on the opposition and give the breather to the other bowlers.

Imagine:
1. Shaheen
2. Abbass
3. Naseem (or someone else)
4. Yasir
5. Zafar

I think the above bowling unit would do well in most conditions.

You have summarized the problem with Yasir Shah.

He keeps getting picked in SENA - FIFTEEN TIMES NOW - on the basis of his supposedly excellent record in England, due to his debut SENA Test when he took 10 wickets.

But Old Trafford 2020 was the same situation as Lords 2016 - and Yasir Shah is no longer capable of doing this.

And his record in England is worse than Faheem Ashraf and Hasan Ali anyway:

YASIR SHAH IN ENGLAND
7 Tests
30 wickets
Average 38.08

YASIR SHAH IN AUSTRALIA
5 Tests
12 wickets
Average 89.50

YASIR SHAH IN SOUTH AFRICA
2 Tests
1 wicket
Average 123.00

YASIR SHAH IN NEW ZEALAND
1 Test
0 wickets
No average

 

[Buffet]

England plays 4 quicks in SENA.
New Zealand plays 4 quicks in SENA.
South Africa plays 4 quicks in SENA.
Australia played 4 quicks in SENA while they had Shane Watson, and they have only stopped recently because Mitchell Marsh's batting average is just 25.20 - TWENTY FIVE PERCENT WORSE THAN SHADAB KHAN - and with Tim Paine also not the batsman he used to be, they can't afford to carry Marsh and Paine at 6 and 7.

But it took Australia 32 Test matches of trying to develop Mitch Marsh as their Number 6 (and fourth quick) before they gave up hope.

Mitch Marsh's record after 32 Tests is:
1260 runs at 25.20
42 wickets at 38.64

Shadab Khan after 6 Tests has the following record for the sake of comparison:
300 runs at 33.33
14 wickets at 36.64

That is what is so frustrating in this space.

Other teams - even Australia - persist with a Number 7 all-rounder with inferior records to Shadab Khan. Ravindra Jadeja also has an inferior record to him Outside Asia.

Pakistan don't play their world-class spinning all-rounder on the basis that they have a better specialist spinner.

But that specialist spinner averages 55.81 Outside Asia and selecting him forces them to sacrifice their fourth quick, even though both Faheem Ashraf and Hasan Ali have superior records as a fourth bowler in SENA compared with Yasir Shah.

PAKISTAN FOURTH BOWLERS IN SENA

1. Average
Faheem Ashraf 26.09
Hasan Ali 34.20
Yasir Shah 55.81

2. Strike Rate
Faheem Ashraf 49.00
Hasan Ali 62.60
Yasir Shah 85.20

3. Economy Rate
Faheem Ashraf 3.18
Hasan Ali 3.27
Yasir Shah 3.92

Yasir Shah is a better spinner than Shadab Khan. But in SENA he is an inferior bowler to Faheem Ashraf or Hasan Ali.

Shaheen and Naseem average worse than Faheem and Hasan. Fawad Alam is actually has even lower average than all of them.

 

[MMHS]

So let me get this right.

1. Shadab Khan got dropped after scoring 60 runs in a Test and taking 2-47.

2. A 21 year old with that level of performance was dropped for a 34 year old who scored 0, 21 and 0 not out at an average of 10.50.

3. You want to go into a Test series in New Zealand one pace bowler short, so that you can accommodate a 34 year old specialist spinner who averages 96 with the ball after 6 Tests in the southern hemisphere.

4. You are accommodating that 34 year old specialist spinner with a bowling average of 96 instead of a 27 year old quick who can bat whose bowling average in SENA is 26, and ahead of a 26 year old quick who can slog whose bowling average in SENA is 34.

But, the 34 years old is averaging 23 - that puts him into the ranks of Murali, Laker, Verity ... even better than Warne and he definitely can do better than Laker or Murali with bat . That’s basically, a player better batsman and bowler than Muralitharan or Jim Laker.

Coming to the last part - yes, I’ll accommodate a leggi who has won four of the five Tests that PAK won in ten or so years. With him failing, may be my loss margin will ge bigger, but there is a chance that he can win an odd game ..... without him, you don’t even have a shot at it.

NZ is a bit different place where the wickets still can suit Yasir, or rather he can make a match of it in fourth innings, but I am not sure if the talented PAK batting will be able to show their talent and give Yasir something to bowl at. The old PAK passioners here can definitely recall the PAK batting of 1990s when they gave Mushi something to bowl at and he did win four Tests at Sydney, Christchurch, Durban & Oval within three years span ..... something might look like a sweet dream for recent PAK fans.

 

[ads101]

Yasir has a bad average and has been over-bowled to give rest to pacers. However he has stepped it up with match winning performances, which is why his stats look worse than it is.

Took 10 wickets in the 1st test at Lords, England 2016. Absolutely dominated that game, and won us that test.

A 5 wicket haul in the 2nd innings at the Oval, England 2016. Again large contributer to winning the game.

We ended up 2-2 against England that tour. Both wins Yasir played a huge part, and was arguably the biggest match winner from the bowlers that tour.

Forward to 2020. The one match that we should have won was the 1st test Manchester 2020. Who was Pakistan's best bowler? Again it was Yasir, who picked up 8 wickets. We should have easily won this test on the back of Yasir's efforts, the others let him down.

The Australia tours have taken a beating on his stats where he was very much overbowled on pitches where foreign spinners struggle hugely. Yes he should have done better. But again, it's the pacers who should have stepped up in Australia which they failed. Thus Yasir was overbowled. NZ, SA he has hardly played.

Shadab on the other hand has done alright. But is he really a spin bowler than can tear down a side and win you a test? I'm not so sure. He seems more like a containing bowler. Yes he's only played 6 tests, but he doesn't have a test where he has dominated a test. And I don't really expect that from a bowler like him right now. He hasn't bowled in Australia, nor as a full time bowler which means he isn't overbowled to the degree yasir is.

In Asia, there's no competition, you need a bowler who runs through a side. Yasir over Shadab.

I guess it depends whether you want to risk playing a bowler who can win you a game in SENA but be expensive. Or choose a bit more containing, economical bowler who bats a bit better. I'd probably prefer the first unless conditions offering nothing for spinners (some Aus and SA pitches).

But in England, regardless of the stats, Yasir has been the more impactful bowler. There's something a bit in for the spinners more than SA or Aus generally. It could have been a 3 or 4 -0 loss in 2016 against England. It was largely because of Yasir it ended up 2-2.

 

[Junaids]

Yasir has a bad average and has been over-bowled to give rest to pacers. However he has stepped it up with match winning performances, which is why his stats look worse than it is.

We ended up 2-2 against England that tour. Both wins Yasir played a huge part, and was arguably the biggest match winner from the bowlers that tour.

I guess it depends whether you want to risk playing a bowler who can win you a game in SENA but be expensive. Or choose a bit more containing, economical bowler who bats a bit better. I'd probably prefer the first unless conditions offering nothing for spinners (some Aus and SA pitches).

But in England, regardless of the stats, Yasir has been the more impactful bowler.

I don't understand your post.

This thread is not a Yasir Shah v Shadab Khan thread. The whole point of this thread is that

OUTSIDE ASIA, YASIR SHAH PLAYS INSTEAD OF A FOURTH QUICK, NOT SHADAB KHAN.

The "good performances" by Yasir have been totally exposed in this thread.

Yasir Shah has taken 5 wickets in an innings TWICE in SENA - both times in his first series in SENA. In his subsequent five series in SENA he has never taken a five wicket haul - not once in 11 Tests.

Nobody else plays a leg-spinner in SENA.

South Africa doesn't play Imran Tahir.

Australia doesn't play Adam Zampa.

England doesn't play Adil Rashid.

New Zealand doesn't play Ish Sodhi.

But for some reason, Misbah and his proxy Azhar have decided that a 34 year old leg-spinner who averages 55.81 after 15 Tests in SENA is somehow worth sacrificing the fourth quick bowler and unbalancing the attack in order to select him.

 

[Junaids]

NZ is a bit different place where the wickets still can suit Yasir, or rather he can make a match of it in fourth innings, but I am not sure if the talented PAK batting will be able to show their talent and give Yasir something to bowl at. The old PAK passioners here can definitely recall the PAK batting of 1990s when they gave Mushi something to bowl at and he did win four Tests at Sydney, Christchurch, Durban & Oval within three years span ..... something might look like a sweet dream for recent PAK fans.

That's a ludicrous comparison.

Yasir Shah in SENA:
15 Tests
43 wickets
Average 55.81

Mushtaq Ahmed in SENA
22 Tests
84 wickets
Average 28.11

Mushtaq Ahmed was a leg-spinner who could actually bowl a googly - unlike Yasir Shah who couldn't turn a ball into the right-hander if his life depended upon it.

Your post summarises the whole problem. Misbah thinks that in Yasir Shah he has a leggie of the quality of Shane Warne or Mushtaq Ahmed, but he is kidding himself. Yasir Shah is just a Poor Man's Mohammad Sami!

In SENA, compare these two:

Yasir Shah
15 Tests
43 wickets
Average 55.81

Mohammad Sami
14 Tests
38 wickets
Average 46.00

That's what investing in Yasir Shah is SENA is like. It's like betting your life savings on someone who is almost as good as Mohammad Sami.

 

[Junaids]

I feel that my last post was a little insulting, so I apologise.

To Mohammad Sami.

Mohammad Sami's Test bowling record in SENA is actually clearly superior to Yasir Shah's - by a margin of 17.6%, no less - and it was unfair of me to compare the two.

Sorry Mohammad Sami. You are a far better Test bowler than Yasir Shah outside Asia.

 

[Amjid Javed]

A spinner in SENA usually needs to take some useful wickets or offer control with the ball, so that seamers can be rotated at the other end.

Yasir does neither the number of garbage boundary and hit me balls he bowls all the time is just not acceptable. Pakistan need to bit the bullet and invest time in a better option with the ball in tests in SENA.

 

[MMHS]

That's a ludicrous comparison.

Yasir Shah in SENA:
15 Tests
43 wickets
Average 55.81

Mushtaq Ahmed in SENA
22 Tests
84 wickets
Average 28.11

Mushtaq Ahmed was a leg-spinner who could actually bowl a googly - unlike Yasir Shah who couldn't turn a ball into the right-hander if his life depended upon it.

Your post summarises the whole problem. Misbah thinks that in Yasir Shah he has a leggie of the quality of Shane Warne or Mushtaq Ahmed, but he is kidding himself. Yasir Shah is just a Poor Man's Mohammad Sami!

In SENA, compare these two:

Yasir Shah
15 Tests
43 wickets
Average 55.81

Mohammad Sami
14 Tests
38 wickets
Average 46.00

That's what investing in Yasir Shah is SENA is like. It's like betting your life savings on someone who is almost as good as Mohammad Sami.

Good job - can you do a little more?

Put the figures of the other three bowlers Mushtaq was bowling with in those 22 Tests and and do the same for Yasir's partners for his 15 Tests - you might see some lights. And, stop taking out WIN from the so called SENA stats - you know the reason why.

And no, you were not insulting Sami, you are insulting the cricket intelligence of posters here by comparing the figures of a spinner and and a pacer on a set of wickets which suits a particular bowling style. And, the two players played with completely different team members.

By the way - no explanation for Fawad?

 

[Zaz]

That's a ludicrous comparison.

Yasir Shah in SENA:
15 Tests
43 wickets
Average 55.81

Mushtaq Ahmed in SENA
22 Tests
84 wickets
Average 28.11

Mushtaq Ahmed was a leg-spinner who could actually bowl a googly - unlike Yasir Shah who couldn't turn a ball into the right-hander if his life depended upon it.

Your post summarises the whole problem. Misbah thinks that in Yasir Shah he has a leggie of the quality of Shane Warne or Mushtaq Ahmed, but he is kidding himself. Yasir Shah is just a Poor Man's Mohammad Sami!

In SENA, compare these two:

Yasir Shah
15 Tests
43 wickets
Average 55.81

Mohammad Sami
14 Tests
38 wickets
Average 46.00

That's what investing in Yasir Shah is SENA is like. It's like betting your life savings on someone who is almost as good as Mohammad Sami.

Thats where stats can be deceiving and actually witnessing matches help

Anybody who has seen both sami and yasir abroad will testify the huge difference in quality by yasir who is a match winner and sami in tests never was

weve determined yasir should be more effective abroad and justified the reasons why he isnt and that largely relates to him being overbowled and the pcaers being useless

Theres no point going over the same points again again

Everybody who has watch yasir live can testify hes the only match winning bowler pakistan has home and away

 

[gazza619]

I feel that my last post was a little insulting, so I apologise.

To Mohammad Sami.

Mohammad Sami's Test bowling record in SENA is actually clearly superior to Yasir Shah's - by a margin of 17.6%, no less - and it was unfair of me to compare the two.

Sorry Mohammad Sami. You are a far better Test bowler than Yasir Shah outside Asia.

See there is a major major problem when we compare bowlers from different decades and their averages and strike rates.

For example do you wholeheartedly think that the legendary Wasim/Waqar would have taken as many wickets as they did in today’s age (when you have a million cameras and two new balls in ODIs)?

So i think we need to readjust our benchmark slightly. For example if an average of 29 was considered great in 1990 for a spinner, that needs to be adjusted to 35.

Yasir needs to do more i agree, but i think he has done enough to keep his spot. The other bowlers in the team need to do their part and support Yasir.