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Out of 11 away hundreds Virat Kohli has just 4 vs teams other then SL, WI, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh

shaz619

shaz619

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Furthermore, none of his hundreds came in any KO game of an ICC tournament or an Asia Cup.

Also, out of those 4 away hundreds which came against Australia (twice), New Zealand and England; just 2 came during chases,

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2015-16/engine/match/895813.html

One against Australia at the Manuka Oval, he came in at 65-1 and was supported by a Dhawan hundred (126 off 113 balls); India lost that game by 25 runs.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html

And the other against New Zealand at Napier notoriously a batting paradise, he came in early after the loss of early wickets and produced one of his best knocks ever but India still lost.

In contrast against the inferior bowling attacks of Bangladesh, West Indies and Zimbabwe Kohli has really fancied himself a lot more away from home.

At home especially Kohli boasts a formidable record with 12 hundreds; 9 of those came during a chase and out of those 9 just 6 came against teams other then Lanka, BD, WI or Zimbabwe; out of those 6, Kohli came in to bat when his team was struggling in 4 of those games but he was supported by Yuvraj (2010 vs AUS), Gambir (2011 vs England) and Dhoni (2016 vs New Zealand) in 3 out of those 4 games.

What we can deduce from these facts is that perhaps Kohli is not the GOAT chaser he is made out to be and pressure can consume him, he also tends to fancy himself against inferior bowling attacks; this stems from his inability outside the off stump and issues with lateral movement.

It's strange because even though it is the modern era where bowlers are severely handicapped and pitches are generally better for batsman I expected Kohli to have a brilliant record against better teams be it at home or away. He has benefited from being cushioned in a powerful Indian batting line up whom bring out the best in him when they play a supporting role, however if the pressure is on and he is up against high calibre bowling then the chances are he will fail.

I just thought I'd do a bit of research to see if the myths and legends were true with regards to Kohli's prowess as an alleged modern ATG who thrives during a chase against all opponents be it at home or away regardless of challenging circumstances when the pressure is on or if his team mates are playing a supporting role.
 
all else aside, the quality of the bowling has totally deteriorated.

i do not know when it happened but 140 is now considered as a benchmark of pace. was just going through the highlights of some old cricket matches and almost every fast bowler could do that

1. dilhara fernando
2. andy bichel. glen mcgrath. brett lee.
3. srinath. zaheer khan. nehra.
4. shoaib. waqar. wasim. razzaq.
5. henry olonga.
6. bond.
7. ntini. donald. kallis. klusener.
8. walsh. ambrose. dillon.

three out of these bowlers consistently had the ability to clock over 150 and over 155 when they really wanted to do that. bond, akhtar, and lee

the bowling quality surely has deteriorated a lot. add to that the pitches and the batting friendly rules and everything becomes different.

kohli may or may not go down in the history as having the most amazing statistics ever but it will be sad that future kids will think of him as being better than tendulkar.
 
omcswe said:
all else aside, the quality of the bowling has totally deteriorated.

i do not know when it happened but 140 is now considered as a benchmark of pace. was just going through the highlights of some old cricket matches and almost every fast bowler could do that

1. dilhara fernando
2. andy bichel. glen mcgrath. brett lee.
3. srinath. zaheer khan. nehra.
4. shoaib. waqar. wasim. razzaq.
5. henry olonga.
6. bond.
7. ntini. donald. kallis. klusener.
8. walsh. ambrose. dillon.

three out of these bowlers consistently had the ability to clock over 150 and over 155 when they really wanted to do that. bond, akhtar, and lee

the bowling quality surely has deteriorated a lot. add to that the pitches and the batting friendly rules and everything becomes different.

kohli may or may not go down in the history as having amazing statistics but it will be sad that future kids will think of him as being better than tendulkar.
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Well said, those kids already think he is better then everyone due to their lack of appreciation for history and unwillingness to educate themselves; they've fallen for many fallacies sadly and do not respect cricket as a balanced sport between bat and ball.
 
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The Bear has gone into Einstein mode. :)) There will be no stopping him from deciphering this Kohli phenomenon.:herath

These are cold hard facts that Kohli cheerleaders will have trouble replying to.
 
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His recent chase against England in India was classic. But again, he was well supported by Jadhav.
 
shaz619 said:
Well said, those kids already think he is better then everyone due to their lack of appreciation for history and unwillingness to educate themselves; they've fallen for many fallacies sadly and do not respect cricket as a balanced sport between bat and ball.
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I think it's more complex than that. Kohli the limited overs batsman is on par with the impact that Tendulkar had on the Indian team in the 90s. It's a pretty damning indictment of the state of the Indian team that the opposition knows that if they get Kohli out cheaply, more often than not the game is half over. It's pretty similar to how teams targeted Tendulkar. Kohli is an immense batsman and every bit as good a match winner as Sachin Tendulkar was. It's also laughable fallacy to suggest that Tendulkar was technically flawless given the number of times he would get bamboozled by an inswinger that would crash through the gaping gap between bat and pad. Just ask Abdul Razzaq.
 
Chief Destroyer said:
The Bear has gone into Einstein mode. :)) There will be no stopping him from deciphering this Kohli phenomenon.:herath

These are cold hard facts that Kohli cheerleaders will have trouble replying to.
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I thought chaloh these guys are right lets do a bit of digging but it turns out that their theories are anything but fact and the assessments of fans like yourself are spot on. If Kohli made his debut in 1990, he would retired from all forms by 1995. I also find it shocking that his prowess is severely exaggerated in this era, his genius vs inferior bowling when the pressure is not significant tends to cancel out all his failures it seems. He's a great batsman but even by modern standards he needs to do a lot more to be considered a legend and not doing so well in challenging circumstances doesn't really help him:amir3
 
Last Monetarist said:
I think it's more complex than that. Kohli the limited overs batsman is on par with the impact that Tendulkar had on the Indian team in the 90s. It's a pretty damning indictment of the state of the Indian team that the opposition knows that if they get Kohli out cheaply, more often than not the game is half over. It's pretty similar to how teams targeted Tendulkar. Kohli is an immense batsman and every bit as good a match winner as Sachin Tendulkar was. It's also laughable fallacy to suggest that Tendulkar was technically flawless given the number of times he would get bamboozled by an inswinger that would crash through the gaping gap between bat and pad. Just ask Abdul Razzaq.
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But how much of an actual winner was Tendulkar?
 
IMMY69 said:
But how much of an actual winner was Tendulkar?
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I'm not one of those young bucks that the OP is denigrating for their apparent lack of appreciation of history, but I am among those who rate Kohli higher than Tendulkar. I think Tendulkar was a great batsman whose impact was a tad overstated due to his marketability to the masses in an era when the common Indian was becoming more aware of the world due to the country's liberalization policies. Marketing men such as Mark Mascarenhas exploited that in a way that ensured that everyone was talking about Tendulkar regardless of performance. He was found wanting more often than not when India were under pressure, although his golden year in 1998 ensured that we would be fed with this narrative of him being a match winner.

Kohli in contrast has delivered under pressure, albeit mostly on the flat tracks of India but that's not different from Tendulkar. It's not that unreasonable to presume that a player would be less effective in less familiar conditions away from home, but he still averages around 49 at a strike rate of 91 in around 26 matches against Australia, England, New Zealand, Pakistan and South Africa away from home. Those aren't damning statistics at any rate.

I just think we increasingly have this tendency to unfairly criticize the modern game. Yes, it's become a batsman's sport due to fielding regulations, flatter wickets and embarrassing boundary sizes and while we don't have such iconic fast bowlers playing today but at the same time the level of skill in the game has never been higher. Fast bowlers have never bowled faster and batsmen have never batted at strike rates seen consistently today. We are all guilty of glorifying the past to the detriment of the present.
 
Sachin136 said:
What a ridiculous thread. Do you know the most away hundreds any Asian batsman has against the home team in Australia, England, South Africa and New Zealand? 7 by Jayasuriya. The next most is 5 by Sangakkara. Sachin has 4. Miandad has 2, Zaheer has 1 and Anwar has 0.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=batting
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Also, out of those 4 away hundreds which came against Australia (twice), New Zealand and England; just 2 came during chases, http://www.espncricinfo.com/australi...ch/895813.html

One against Australia at the Manuka Oval, he came in at 65-1 and was supported by a Dhawan hundred (126 off 113 balls); India lost that game by 25 runs.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html

And the other against New Zealand at Napier notoriously a batting paradise, he came in early after the loss of early wickets and produced one of his best knocks ever but India still lost.

Never mind the modern day batting implications and bowling quality beyond conditions.

Ignorance is ridiculous.
 
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shaz619 said:
Also, out of those 4 away hundreds which came against Australia (twice), New Zealand and England; just 2 came during chases, http://www.espncricinfo.com/australi...ch/895813.html

One against Australia at the Manuka Oval, he came in at 65-1 and was supported by a Dhawan hundred (126 off 113 balls); India lost that game by 25 runs.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html

And the other against New Zealand at Napier notoriously a batting paradise, he came in early after the loss of early wickets and produced one of his best knocks ever but India still lost.

Never mind the modern day batting implications and bowling quality beyond conditions.

Ignorance is ridiculous.
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If you have 4 hundreds, what is wrong with 2 of them coming in chases? If 3 or all 4 of them were in chases, you would say that Kohli is not good batting first. Seriously, this is not a flaw at all.

All your thread shows is that Kohli has as many or more away hundreds (against those teams you mentioned) than most other players in less than half the matches. You are obviously trying to belittle his achievements, but this just shows how good he is.
 
Pathetic indian cherry picking.... especially by Sachin136


Younis Khan has 16 Test centuries against England, Australia, NZ, South Africa, india outside of home!!!

Make that 20 if you include ODIs!!!
 
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Sachin136 said:
If you have 4 hundreds, what is wrong with 2 of them coming in chases? If 3 or all 4 of them were in chases, you would say that Kohli is not good batting first. Seriously, this is not a flaw at all.

All your thread shows is that Kohli has as many or more away hundreds (against those teams you mentioned) than most other players in less than half the matches. You are obviously trying to belittle his achievements, but this just shows how good he is.
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Given that Kohli is a specialist with regards to Chasing this point was researched and evidently I found that his record is not as fancy as his fans suggest, there is nothing wrong with having 2 chases etc but based on those two innings not sure I'd call him some kind of a specialist when a) he rarely delivers without a cushion from the top order b) the weaker bowling attacks are repeatedly bashed and c) his game is not raised during the difficult circumstances . If you want to praise him based on that then feel free to do so and going by your logic then Sachin is a bug compared to Kohli.
 
Sachin136 said:
Now that your post was shown to be a failed attempt at demeaning Kohli, you shift to other topics.
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That's what you attempted by bringing in miandad to the equation but you ended up pointing out why he is superior, I am merely exposing the fallacies of your ignorance and fandom. Think the beating Pak gave you in the CT have caused serious issues with your ability to come to objective conclusions
 
Khwaja said:
Read again
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Miandad has 7 in tests. The OP is obviously talking about ODIs.

Khwaja said:
Pathetic indian cherry picking.... especially by Sachin136


Younis Khan has 16 Test centuries against England, Australia, NZ, South Africa, india outside of home!!!

Make that 20 if you include ODIs!!!
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What does this have anything to do with what we are talking about?

Also, this is not a discussion about tests.
 
shaz619 said:
That's what you attempted by bringing in miandad to the equation but you ended up pointing out why he is superior, I am merely exposing the fallacies of your ignorance and fandom. Think the beating Pak gave you in the CT have caused serious issues with your ability to come to objective conclusions
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Please explain to me how I showed that Miandad is superior to Kohli by pointing out that Miandad has half the centuries Kohli has (applying the meaningless qualifier you used) from many more matches.
 
Sachin136 said:
Miandad has 7 in tests. The OP is obviously talking about ODIs.



What does this have anything to do with what we are talking about?

Also, this is not a discussion about tests.
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indian in denial... Were talking about centuries... open your eyes
 
Sachin136 said:
Please explain to me how I showed that Miandad is superior to Kohli by pointing out that Miandad has half the centuries Kohli has (applying the meaningless qualifier you used) from many more matches.
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You pointed out he is superior based on the fact that miandad had to deal with tougher conditions, delivered in challenging circumstances and scored against high calibre bowling attacks. So basically Kohli is a tailender in comparison in your own words.
 
shaz619 said:
Given that Kohli is a specialist with regards to Chasing this point was researched and evidently I found that his record is not as fancy as his fans suggest, there is nothing wrong with having 2 chases etc but based on those two innings not sure I'd call him some kind of a specialist when a) he rarely delivers without a cushion from the top order b) the weaker bowling attacks are repeatedly bashed and c) his game is not raised during the difficult circumstances . If you want to praise him based on that then feel free to do so and going by your logic then Sachin is a bug compared to Kohli.
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a) And a sample size of 4 matches is how you come to the conclusion?

b) What part of "Kohli has more hundreds than most other batsmen in fewer matches against quality oppositions away" do you not understand?

c) This has nothing to do with your original post.

I am not praising him based on this stat, because it is meaningless. I am just saying that whatever point you tried to convey in your first post is completely wrong.
 
Khwaja said:
indian in denial... Were talking about centuries... open your eyes
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Are you trolling me? OP is obviously talking about ODIs only, because Kohli has more than 4 centuries in Australia alone, if we consider tests.
 
shaz619 said:
You pointed out he is superior based on the fact that miandad had to deal with tougher conditions, delivered in challenging circumstances and scored against high calibre bowling attacks. So basically Kohli is a tailender in comparison in your own words.
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Okay, I understand. You're just messing around.
 
Sachin136 said:
a) And a sample size of 4 matches is how you come to the conclusion?

b) What part of "Kohli has more hundreds than most other batsmen in fewer matches against quality oppositions away" do you not understand?

c) This has nothing to do with your original post.

I am not praising him based on this stat, because it is meaningless. I am just saying that whatever point you tried to convey in your first post is completely wrong.
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The sample size is Kohli's total number of hundreds, the number 4 is small due to Kohli's limitations because the sample is based on his entire career hundreds in ODI's. It is only in 4 games out of 11 (his total away hundreds number) that Kohli managed away hundreds against teams other then Bangla, SL, WI and ZImbabwe.

What part of of Kohli has more soft hundreds in fewer matches against inferior oppositions away do you not understand?

This has everything to do with OP and I apologise you did not understand it but this post hopefully clears up everything in your head.
 
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He's a magnificent batsman.

Wonderful technique, high cricketing IQ, and the ability to soak in pressure.

Whichever side of the fence you sit, it's incredible to see the work he's put in before the age of 28. Many batsmen start hitting their peak now.

In my eyes he's the GOAT chaser and has long passed Michael Bevan. :)
 
Can we leave him alone? If he's not good batsman, who is then?

Kohli is No.1 odi batsman now, so please leave him alone, and discuss something else.
 
He is a brilliant bating strategist, who thrives under chase, but, he isn't technically solid enough. These days, ODIs are played on 300+ condition, which suits his game - his stroke making ability, his placement, his calculation. But, his defense isn't solid enough for doing the same thing in 200+ condition - that's in many cases, he won't survive for long against new ball if there is something for the pacers.

But, we can judge a player only what is given to him - in current context, he is No. 1 batsman in world & deserving.
 
The insecurity is ridiculous.
Kohli is a better ODI batsman than any batsman Pakistan ever had, barring none.
And there's no shame in that either.
I think we're letting the CT win get to our heads, it was an absolutely fantastic victory and the better team one, but that doesn't warrant this reaction.
 
MMHS said:
He is a brilliant bating strategist, who thrives under chase, but, he isn't technically solid enough. These days, ODIs are played on 300+ condition, which suits his game - his stroke making ability, his placement, his calculation. But, his defense isn't solid enough for doing the same thing in 200+ condition - that's in many cases, he won't survive for long against new ball if there is something for the pacers.

But, we can judge a player only what is given to him - in current context, he is No. 1 batsman in world & deserving.
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Anderson brutally exposed him in England in 2014, Kohli just had no answer and he had 4 test matches to figure out a counter response and he failed miserably. Until and unless he corrects this in similar conditions in the future, i will not rate him beyond a certain point.
 
Chief Destroyer said:
The Bear has gone into Einstein mode. :)) There will be no stopping him from deciphering this Kohli phenomenon.:herath

These are cold hard facts that Kohli cheerleaders will have trouble replying to.
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This thread needs an anti-bear i.e. [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]
 
Kohli looks like a bunny against decent bowlers when the ball is swinging/ seaming, classic FTB. Fortunately for him odi pitches are usually flat all over the world.
 
Really guys

Best batsman in the world right now.

This nitpicking is Moronic. He has achieved more in ODI cricket than 90% legends and he already has 10 years of cricket left in him
 
omcswe said:
all else aside, the quality of the bowling has totally deteriorated.

i do not know when it happened but 140 is now considered as a benchmark of pace. was just going through the highlights of some old cricket matches and almost every fast bowler could do that

1. dilhara fernando
2. andy bichel. glen mcgrath. brett lee.
3. srinath. zaheer khan. nehra.
4. shoaib. waqar. wasim. razzaq.
5. henry olonga.
6. bond.
7. ntini. donald. kallis. klusener.
8. walsh. ambrose. dillon.

three out of these bowlers consistently had the ability to clock over 150 and over 155 when they really wanted to do that. bond, akhtar, and lee

the bowling quality surely has deteriorated a lot. add to that the pitches and the batting friendly rules and everything becomes different.

kohli may or may not go down in the history as having the most amazing statistics ever but it will be sad that future kids will think of him as being better than tendulkar.
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1. Malinga, Dhammika
2. Hazlewood, Harris, Johnson, Starc, Cummins, Pattinson
3. Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Bumrah
4. Amir, Wahab, Junaid, Irfan
5. Chatara
6. Boult, Wagner, Milne
7. Rabada, Kallis, Morne, Steyn, Morris
8. Gabriel, Joseph
9. Ball, Wood, Stokes, Woakes, Broad, Plunkett

Seriously dude? There have never been as many 140+ bowlers as there are today
 
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Executioner said:
Really guys

Best batsman in the world right now.

This nitpicking is Moronic. He has achieved more in ODI cricket than 90% legends and he already has 10 years of cricket left in him
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It is beyond moronic and extremely ignorant to ignore facts and blindly worship a false idol based on superficial nonesense. Feel free to present the opposing view for every point made in the OP.
 
ODI's are being discussed here, it is somewhat more accepted that Virat is trash in Tests but after further investigation we can see that he is no ATG in ODI's which is easily thrown around these days when it comes to his batting limited forms
 
Ok then. Let me address this.

Virat has toured NZ only once, at 25 - in 2014. He was our stand-out performer throughout the series, though he made only 1 hundred (and 2 fifties), but those are not the only knocks that count.

He went to SA in 2011 at 22 and at that age, looked really comfortable. No hundreds though but had a good series. Didn't score in the two paltry matches in 2013, and the entire team failed too.

Played his first ODI series in Aus in 2012 with SL as the third team in the series. Was comfortably India's best player in the series. Again, had an amazing ODI series in 2016 in Aus - had 2 hundreds and 2 fifties, was the man of the series in T20's too.

Went to England in 2011, played well - scored a hundred in Cardiff - the only one from an Indian in the series and also scored a 50. Had a terrible time in England in 2014 in Tests and ODIs - one blemish. Has had 2 more than decent champions trophy - top scored in low-scoring final in 2013 (took India from 60-5 to 130).

So yeah, he hasn't scored a lot of hundreds away, but also hasn't played many away series too. Also hundreds are not the only innings that count, as said earlier.

Remember he is just 28. People forget this.

These were all from the top of my head, he has done a lot more for the team. Hope this helped.
 
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Princejain191 said:
Ok then. Let me address this.

Virat has toured NZ only once, at 25 - in 2014. He was our stand-out performer throughout the series, though he made only 1 hundred (and 2 fifties), but those are not the only knocks that count.

He went to SA in 2011 at 22 and at that age, looked really comfortable. No hundreds though but had a good series. Didn't score in the two paltry matches in 2013, and the entire team failed too.

Played his first ODI series in Aus in 2012 with SL as the third team in the series. Was comfortably India's best player in the series. Again, had an amazing ODI series in 2016 in Aus - had 2 hundreds and 2 fifties, was the man of the series in T20's too.

Went to England in 2011, played well - scored a hundred in Cardiff - the only one from an Indian in the series and also scored a 50. Had a terrible time in England in 2014 in Tests and ODIs - one blemish. Has had 2 more than decent champions trophy - top scored in low-scoring final in 2013 (took India from 60-5 to 130).

So yeah, he hasn't scored a lot of hundreds away, but also hasn't played many away series too. Also hundreds are not the only innings that count, as said earlier.

Remember he is just 28. People forget this.

These were all from the top of my head, he has done a lot more for the team. Hope this helped.
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The post wasn't directed at you but appreciate you not getting personal and resorting to low grade garbage.

Am fine with that but so long he is not advocated as an ATG, he still has time to improve and get there but he will need to thrive in challenging circumstances against all opposition and conditions.
 
shaz619 said:
The post wasn't directed at you but appreciate you not getting personal and resorting to low grade garbage.

Am fine with that but so long he is not advocated as an ATG, he still has time to improve and get there but he will need to thrive in challenging circumstances against all opposition and conditions.
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It is arguable whether he is an ATG in ODIs or not, but he is currently the closest thing to an ATG among all IMO. Has the knack of playing the most outrageous innings when the team is in pretty awful situation. (Case in point - Kedar and Virat chasing 350+ after the team was 66/4 in the first ODI)

But, quite clearly, there are things to work upon and records to improve - starting from the WI series tomorrow.

Needs an outstanding WC, and more ridiculous innings (and chases) in ODIs away from Asia, which I am sure he will get in the next round of away matches which will start from this December.

He last played an away series against SA, NZ or Eng back in 2014 at age 25. So, I don't see the point of such a thread when the sample size is so small.
 
Princejain191 said:
It is arguable whether he is an ATG in ODIs or not, but he is currently the closest thing to an ATG among all IMO. Has the knack of playing the most outrageous innings when the team is in pretty awful situation. (Case in point - Kedar and Virat chasing 350+ after the team was 66/4 in the first ODI)

But, quite clearly, there are things to work upon and records to improve - starting from the WI series tomorrow.

Needs an outstanding WC, and more ridiculous innings (and chases) in ODIs away from Asia, which I am sure he will get in the next round of away matches which will start from this December.

He last played an away series against SA, NZ or Eng back in 2014 at age 25. So, I don't see the point of such a thread when the sample size is so small.
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Likewise I don't see the point in coming to ultimate conclusions which advocate Virat's undisputed greatness as a legend in the ODI format. We can only critique his performances based on what he has produced thus far and those are the numbers in the OP, I agree that he has someway to go and comments at this stage are premature; am not saying he will not get there but the first thing he needs to do is not allow himself to be consumed by pressure when presented with challenging situations and exorcise his demons outside off stump in addition to lateral movement.
 
shaz619 said:
Likewise I don't see the point in coming to ultimate conclusions which advocate Virat's undisputed greatness as a legend in the ODI format. We can only critique his performances based on what he has produced thus far and those are the numbers in the OP, I agree that he has someway to go and comments at this stage are premature; am not saying he will not get there but the first thing he needs to do is not allow himself to be consumed by pressure when presented with challenging situations and exorcise his demons outside off stump in addition to lateral movement.
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These discussions are always subjective. And I think the numbers in this thread have been nitpicked to make a hill out of a molehill.

Rest I agree with. He has things to improve on, but you have to understand that for a 28 year-old, what he has achieved already is completely ridiculous and it is understandable why people use the praises they do. It is horrifying to imagine what he might be able to do if he actually sorts out his little issues.
 
Princejain191 said:
These discussions are always subjective. And I think the numbers in this thread have been nitpicked to make a hill out of a molehill.

Rest I agree with. He has things to improve on, but you have to understand that for a 28 year-old, what he has achieved already is completely ridiculous and it is understandable why people use the praises they do. It is horrifying to imagine what he might be able to do if he actually sorts out his little issues.
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I think these "nitpicked" statistics are facts which negate all the theories which suggest he is an All Time Great in ODI's, context is everything and it is not even close; he has been impressive in itself in the modern era which heavily favours batsman whilst reaping the rewards of a flat deck and inferior bowling but he has not been consistent enough when presented with a challenge so I personally will not even call a debate arguable when it comes to his potential ATG status which is non-existent at the moment for me.

But the moment he sorts out his glaring issues outside off stump, ineptness against lateral movement and questionable choking in challenging situations then an argument can be made to advocate his legend as an All Time Great providing he delivers the instances when met with a challenge.
 
Princejain191 said:
1. Malinga, Dhammika
2. Hazlewood, Harris, Johnson, Starc, Cummins, Pattinson
3. Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Bumrah
4. Amir, Wahab, Junaid, Irfan
5. Chatara
6. Boult, Wagner, Milne
7. Rabada, Kallis, Morne, Steyn, Morris
8. Gabriel, Joseph
9. Ball, Wood, Stokes, Woakes, Broad, Plunkett

Seriously dude? There have never been as many 140+ bowlers as there are today
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u didn't get the essence of my post so i'll try it again

the fact that 140 kph which is now a barometer of pace is shambolic because this much pace was almost considered a norm because of the express pacers making everyone else feel slower.

india who haven't been considered as a pace power house and people like bumrah, yadav, and shami are lauded for being so fast are not actually unique. zaheer khan, srinath, nehra, rp singh, sreesanth all had top speeds over 140 kph.

the fact that pitches are flat, fielding restrictions are different, and short boundaries with big bats will obviously skews statistics when you look at them alone without the historic perspective.

bevan had a low strike rate and will be forgotten by many who don't really go through the annals of history

once again, i am not berating kohli, all i am saying that people jumping up and down like cheerleaders thinking that kohli is a goat already need to keep things in perspective.

tendulkar stands heads and shoulders above any indian batsman and that list includes kohli and dhoni despite them averaging more than him.
 
Listen if someone was to say kohli is the best batsmen I would say your wrong

In the 90s every team had 2 speed kings

Wasim,Waqar,Akhtar,Saqlain,Even Razzaq
Donald,Pollack
Vaas,Marali(he wasn't fast but if the man can make younis look like a tailender imagine what would happen with kohli)
Warne,McGrath,Lee,Gillespie
Caddick,Gough,
Ambrose,Benjamin,Walsh,Patterson,Bishop
Only India had the worst bowling attack/Bangladesh was non existent
Streak,Brandes(Wouldnt be suprised if kohli would struggle against these)
 
Last decade

Steyn,Rabada,Broad,Hazlewood,Starc,Amir

These are the only good bowlers produced and they hardly get a go v kohli

P.S. Them 2 tons in Aus last year were against

Kane Richardson,Hastings,Faulkner,Nathan Lyon,Scott Bolland and Mitch marsh

What an attack
 
Babar Azam hundred and general good performance in Aussie Odis

Cummins
Hazlewood
Starc
Zampa
Faulkner
 
Billy1999 said:
He has struggled against 130 kph lollypop Anderson
Click to expand...

Anderson at those speeds is highly skilled and one of the best swing bowlers ever, if you get the ball to deviate even a little then Kohli will be a sitting duck
 
shaz619 said:
The sample size is Kohli's total number of hundreds, the number 4 is small due to Kohli's limitations because the sample is based on his entire career hundreds in ODI's. It is only in 4 games out of 11 (his total away hundreds number) that Kohli managed away hundreds against teams other then Bangla, SL, WI and ZImbabwe.

What part of of Kohli has more soft hundreds in fewer matches against inferior oppositions away do you not understand?

This has everything to do with OP and I apologise you did not understand it but this post hopefully clears up everything in your head.
Click to expand...

Okay, you are clearly having issues understanding what I am saying.

Kohli has more hundreds in Australia, England, South Africa and New Zealand against the home team (which is the qualifier you used in the OP) than almost all other batsmen outside of those countries, despite playing fewer matches than most of them.

Sangakkara has 5, in 87 matches. Sachin has 4 in 82 matches. Miandad has 2 in 50 matches. Kohli has 4 in 35 matches.

How in the world can you spin that to make it seem like one of Kohli's flaws?
 
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Sachin136 said:
Okay, you are clearly having issues understanding what I am saying.

Kohli has more hundreds in Australia, England, South Africa and New Zealand against the home team (which is the qualifier you used in the OP) than almost all other batsmen outside of those countries, despite playing fewer matches than most of them.

Sangakkara has 5, in 87 matches. Sachin has 4 in 82 matches. Miandad has 2 in 50 matches. Kohli has 4 in 35 matches.

How in the world can you spin that to make it seem like one of Kohli's flaws?
Click to expand...

Again, am not sure you grasped my post; based on those 4 hundreds Virat can't be advocated as an ATG in ODI's even more so when it comes to chasing.

As I had had said earlier, out of those 4 away hundreds which came against Australia (twice), New Zealand and England; just 2 came during chases, http://www.espncricinfo.com/australi...ch/895813.html

One against Australia at the Manuka Oval, he came in at 65-1 and was supported by a Dhawan hundred (126 off 113 balls); India lost that game by 25 runs.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html

And the other against New Zealand at Napier notoriously a batting paradise, he came in early after the loss of early wickets and produced one of his best knocks ever but India still lost.

In contrast against the inferior bowling attacks of Bangladesh, West Indies and Zimbabwe Kohli has really fancied himself a lot more away from home.

Another point to highlight is that Kohli can't be compared to keepers and other batsman who played in era's where it was a lot more challenging and are in fact levels above him or else he'd not choke when the pressure is on or go missing against lateral movement.
 
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shaz619 said:
Again, am not sure you grasped my post; based on those 4 hundreds Virat can't be advocated as an ATG in ODI's even more so when it comes to chasing.

As I had had said earlier, out of those 4 away hundreds which came against Australia (twice), New Zealand and England; just 2 came during chases, http://www.espncricinfo.com/australi...ch/895813.html

One against Australia at the Manuka Oval, he came in at 65-1 and was supported by a Dhawan hundred (126 off 113 balls); India lost that game by 25 runs.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html

And the other against New Zealand at Napier notoriously a batting paradise, he came in early after the loss of early wickets and produced one of his best knocks ever but India still lost.

In contrast against the inferior bowling attacks of Bangladesh, West Indies and Zimbabwe Kohli has really fancied himself a lot more away from home.

Another point to highlight is that Kohli can't be compared to keepers and other batsman who played in era's where it was a lot more challenging and are in fact levels above him or else he'd not choke when the pressure is on or go missing against lateral movement.
Click to expand...

Do you actually read posts you respond to, or do you just copy paste your earlier replies?

Sachin, Sangakkara and virtually every other batsmen from those countries have around as many or fewer centuries in over 2-3 times the matches. If this stat is enough to show that Kohli can't be advocated as an ATG right now, then by that metric, no batsman has been an ATG in ODIs.

"Another point to highlight is that Kohli can't be compared to keepers and other batsman who played in era's where it was a lot more challenging and are in fact levels above him or else he'd not choke when the pressure is on or go missing against lateral movement."

Seriously? Sangakkara just retired from ODIs recently.
 
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Sachin136 said:
Do you actually read posts you respond to, or do you just copy paste your earlier replies?

Sachin, Sangakkara and virtually every other batsmen from those countries have around as many or fewer centuries in over 2-3 times the matches. If this stat is enough to show that Kohli can't be advocated as an ATG right now, then by that metric, no batsman has been an ATG in ODIs.

"Another point to highlight is that Kohli can't be compared to keepers and other batsman who played in era's where it was a lot more challenging and are in fact levels above him or else he'd not choke when the pressure is on or go missing against lateral movement."

Seriously? Sangakkara just retired from ODIs recently.
Click to expand...

I don't think you've read my posts or perhaps you just fail to understand them or refuse to. So again just to break down that previous post for you a bit more simplified:

1) Virat Kohli has just 4 hundreds away from home, firstly this is not a number to do a bhangra over when compared to legends his runs have come in an era where conditions are great for batting

2) In the two which came during a chase, both ended in defeat; in fact all those hundreds came in defeat and almost in every game his team mates played a supporting role meaning that his runs did not come under pressure, keep this point in mind

3) Touching on pressure is important with regards to Kohli, in challenging circumstances he has choked time and time again, more recently in the CT final

4) Kohli is yet to resolve his issues outside off stump and handle lateral movement adequately
 
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shaz619 said:
Anderson at those speeds is highly skilled and one of the best swing bowlers ever, if you get the ball to deviate even a little then Kohli will be a sitting duck
Click to expand...

True

But when Anderson PAAJI doesn't get any swing then he isn't really threatening
 
omcswe said:
u didn't get the essence of my post so i'll try it again

the fact that 140 kph which is now a barometer of pace is shambolic because this much pace was almost considered a norm because of the express pacers making everyone else feel slower.

india who haven't been considered as a pace power house and people like bumrah, yadav, and shami are lauded for being so fast are not actually unique. zaheer khan, srinath, nehra, rp singh, sreesanth all had top speeds over 140 kph.

the fact that pitches are flat, fielding restrictions are different, and short boundaries with big bats will obviously skews statistics when you look at them alone without the historic perspective.

bevan had a low strike rate and will be forgotten by many who don't really go through the annals of history

once again, i am not berating kohli, all i am saying that people jumping up and down like cheerleaders thinking that kohli is a goat already need to keep things in perspective.

tendulkar stands heads and shoulders above any indian batsman and that list includes kohli and dhoni despite them averaging more than him.
Click to expand...

I did get you. 140 has always been a metric to measure a fast bowler, just that 150+ comes under express pace. And I still maintain that today's bowlers, on average, are much much faster than they have ever been.

Every team, even Bangladesh, have 2-3 players who can crank up 140+ consistently. You may remember how there always used to be a dibbly-dobbly 5th bowler in most teams earlier - that concept has gone now. SA has someone like Morris (earlier it was Klusner or Cronje - both way below 140), India has someone like Pandya (earlier it was Ganguly), and NZ and so on.....

Also I would argue that India, SA, NZ, Eng have had better stocks in last 2-3 yrs than they have ever had. SA has always had 2 amazing frontline bowlers, but with Tahir and Morris - they are better than ever (Rabada, Steyn, Morne, Tahir, Morris...)

NZ again with Milne, Southee, Boult, McClenaghan and Santner IMO are better. Would take it over Cains, Bond (who played few matches), Vettori, Styris...

India - Shami, Bumrah, Bhuvi, Jaddu - you know the rest

England - Rashid, Willey, Wood, Plunkett, etc and just 4 years ago - Swann, Anderson, Broad...

And the rest - Starc, Hazlewood, Amir, Hasan, Malinga, Mendis, Ajmal

Hope I have got the point across. Also I think you should read an article by Jarrod (or Ed Smith?) on cricinfo recently about how bowlers are now faster than ever.

And wait, this is how Sachin actually fared against the great ol' timers:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...er_involve=2101;template=results;type=batting
 
So he has 36% percent of his away hundreds against 50% of the teams . Wow thats some stat .
 
Mate I think you have some kind of Kohli paranoia. Can you please take time to see if there has ever been any other batsman with better stats?

shaz619 said:
Furthermore, none of his hundreds came in any KO game of an ICC tournament or an Asia Cup.

Also, out of those 4 away hundreds which came against Australia (twice), New Zealand and England; just 2 came during chases,

http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2015-16/engine/match/895813.html

One against Australia at the Manuka Oval, he came in at 65-1 and was supported by a Dhawan hundred (126 off 113 balls); India lost that game by 25 runs.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/667641.html

And the other against New Zealand at Napier notoriously a batting paradise, he came in early after the loss of early wickets and produced one of his best knocks ever but India still lost.

In contrast against the inferior bowling attacks of Bangladesh, West Indies and Zimbabwe Kohli has really fancied himself a lot more away from home.

At home especially Kohli boasts a formidable record with 12 hundreds; 9 of those came during a chase and out of those 9 just 6 came against teams other then Lanka, BD, WI or Zimbabwe; out of those 6, Kohli came in to bat when his team was struggling in 4 of those games but he was supported by Yuvraj (2010 vs AUS), Gambir (2011 vs England) and Dhoni (2016 vs New Zealand) in 3 out of those 4 games.

What we can deduce from these facts is that perhaps Kohli is not the GOAT chaser he is made out to be and pressure can consume him, he also tends to fancy himself against inferior bowling attacks; this stems from his inability outside the off stump and issues with lateral movement.

It's strange because even though it is the modern era where bowlers are severely handicapped and pitches are generally better for batsman I expected Kohli to have a brilliant record against better teams be it at home or away. He has benefited from being cushioned in a powerful Indian batting line up whom bring out the best in him when they play a supporting role, however if the pressure is on and he is up against high calibre bowling then the chances are he will fail.

I just thought I'd do a bit of research to see if the myths and legends were true with regards to Kohli's prowess as an alleged modern ATG who thrives during a chase against all opponents be it at home or away regardless of challenging circumstances when the pressure is on or if his team mates are playing a supporting role.
Click to expand...
 
Pakhs said:
Mate I think you have some kind of Kohli paranoia. Can you please take time to see if there has ever been any other batsman with better stats?
Click to expand...

And mate, I think in your delusional world Kumar Sangakara must be better then Sachin and Virat must be on a level playing as Tendulkar as well. It useless to look at numbers without context.
 
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Mate you must have a personal dislike of kholi! As I said there is no one else who has better stats than kholi! His 50 against Australia in last T20 world cup was the best innings I have seen for a long time under pressure.
 
Who else has 4 away 100s in those countries? So if we go by your words everybody else is rubbish? Okay fair enough either way he is the best currently.
 
Pakhs said:
Mate you must have a personal dislike of kholi! As I said there is no one else who has better stats than kholi! His 50 against Australia in last T20 world cup was the best innings I have seen for a long time under pressure.
Click to expand...

Pakhs said:
Who else has 4 away 100s in those countries? So if we go by your words everybody else is rubbish? Okay fair enough either way he is the best currently.
Click to expand...

Ahmed Shehzad and Javed Miandad both have 2 away hundreds each, a question for you; are they both as good as each other?

And Kohli fans take criticism towards him a bit too personal, I have provided reasons for my view; it's just a game of cricket. Furthermore, which knock did Kohli play in a final which resulted in a Trophy? since you are bringing up the T20 WC.

I have not denied that Kohli has a better record compared to other top batsman in the world but it doesn't say much when they have been utter rubbish, my main issue is with regards to those who claim he is an ATG, a specialist chaser and a batsman who is worthy of being compared to Sir Viv, Ponting and Sachin.

Do you seriously believe his 4 away hundreds in this era are to be glorified to the point where we rate him better then Viv? I have also dissected those 4 away hundreds, they came in a losing cause when Kohli was supported by his team mates mostly meaning that Kohli tends to struggle in pressure scenario's and especially when lateral movement is present.
 
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shaz619 said:
Ahmed Shehzad and Javed Miandad both have 2 away hundreds each, a question for you; are they both as good as each other?

And Kohli fans take criticism towards him a bit too personal, I have provided reasons for my view; it's just a game of cricket. Furthermore, which knock did Kohli play in a final which resulted in a Trophy? since you are bringing up the T20 WC.

I have not denied that Kohli has a better record compared to other top batsman in the world but it doesn't say much when they have been utter rubbish, my main issue is with regards to those who claim he is an ATG, a specialist chaser and a batsman who is worthy of being compared to Sir Viv, Ponting and Sachin.

Do you seriously believe his 4 away hundreds in this era are to be glorified to the point where we rate him better then Viv? I have also dissected those 4 away hundreds, they came in a losing cause when Kohli was supported by his team mates mostly meaning that Kohli tends to struggle in pressure scenario's and especially when lateral movement is present.
Click to expand...

So how come others have got worst records than him? Is it because its a difficult thing to do and he has done it more often than others? Kholis record speaks itself. He doesn't need defending.. its a simple fact he is the best around when it comes to limited over cricket and by the time he retires he will confirm his status as an all time great.
 
Pakhs said:
So how come others have got worst records than him? Is it because its a difficult thing to do and he has done it more often than others? Kholis record speaks itself. He doesn't need defending.. its a simple fact he is the best around when it comes to limited over cricket and by the time he retires he will confirm his status as an all time great.
Click to expand...

I don't think you provided a retort to my post but responded based on blind fandom
 
shaz619 said:
I don't think you provided a retort to my post but responded based on blind fandom
Click to expand...

Well you provided the selective stats to try and show us Kholi is not as good as we think! all I said anyone with better stats to which you said no. and by magic we have the answer most people already know!
 
Pakhs said:
Well you provided the selective stats to try and show us Kholi is not as good as we think! all I said anyone with better stats to which you said no. and by magic we have the answer most people already know!
Click to expand...

Unfortunately that is not true, but I did try to help you there:

I have not denied that Kohli has a better record compared to other top batsman in the world but it doesn't say much when they have been utter rubbish, my main issue is with regards to those who claim he is an ATG, a specialist chaser and a batsman who is worthy of being compared to Sir Viv, Ponting and Sachin.

Do you seriously believe his 4 away hundreds in this era are to be glorified to the point where we rate him better then Viv? I have also dissected those 4 away hundreds, they came in a losing cause when Kohli was supported by his team mates mostly meaning that Kohli tends to struggle in pressure scenario's and especially when lateral movement is present.
Click to expand...
 
shaz619 said:
:)) How convenient that you ignored the remainder of that post, I don't think I can convince you otherwise regardless so we'll just agree to disagree.
Click to expand...

I dont think you are going to convince many that kholi is not the best Limited over cricket we have currently..
 
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