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Outrage levels : Israeli aggression towards Palestinians vs Russia's attack on Ukraine

It's because Ukranians are mostly blonde with blue eyes and are not Muslims.

I guess to many Palestinians and Yemenis aren't humans!

And what of Ukrainian Muslims, descendants of the Crimean Khanate? They are part of Ukraine too. Ukraine is getting support in Europe because it is a European democracy invaded by a despot.

Yemenis are killing Yemenis in a civil war. This war spilled over into Saudi Arabia, who are leading a coalition of Arab states to stop it.

So it’s really a case of Arab Muslims from many countries killing Arab Muslims in Yemen.

Yet Britain gets the blame for arming the Saudis, while Russia gets a pass even though Moscow is arming some of the other combatants.

While in West Papua, an actual genocide committed by a Muslim nation is completely ignored.

I accept that I am indulging in whataboutery here, but to make the point that outrage is selective for everyone, that double standards and hypocrisy are raised by everyone, including Muslims about other Muslims.
 
You keep repeating these lies.

Here are a few links refuting your nonsense:-

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/30/far-right-israeli-attacks-highlights-jerusalem-day-reality

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...ish-city/00000180-d62b-d452-a1fa-d7efddc80000

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...horities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-arab-supreme-court-judge-arabs-face-discrimination/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/opinion/israel-palestinian-citizens-racism-discrimination.html

In addition, even the law favours Jews over Israeli Arabs.

There was also a video of Jews beating up a lone Israeli Arab, police punching and beating up an Arab uber delivery man for no reason. Illegally stealing Arabs land is not ''better behavior'' than other Arab countries either.
The fact that I repeatedly point out that Arab countries treat Arab citizens much worse than Israel does means that I am tagged here as a supporter of Israel.

In reality, I recognise that Israel has lurched horribly towards the far-right this century, and become much less liberal and tolerant. It’s sad.
 
The fact that I repeatedly point out that Arab countries treat Arab citizens much worse than Israel does means that I am tagged here as a supporter of Israel.

In reality, I recognise that Israel has lurched horribly towards the far-right this century, and become much less liberal and tolerant. It’s sad.

It seems to be a theme. Europe elected people like Johnson and Orban, USA Trump, Israel Netenyahu. Putin seized power in Russia. Liberalism is in retreat, so liberal protections for minorities are eroded by the populist hard right authoritarians.
 
It seems to be a theme. Europe elected people like Johnson and Orban, USA Trump, Israel Netenyahu. Putin seized power in Russia. Liberalism is in retreat, so liberal protections for minorities are eroded by the populist hard right authoritarians.
Israel had a noble liberal, European history.

And it has descended into right-wing nationalist nonsense. It’s very sad.
 
Lets not change the topic here. The question is simple, why are the atrocities of Isreal towards Palestinians not met with the same level of condemnation by the West as seen towards Russia towards Ukraine?

Or better put, why are liberals not showing solidarity towards Palestinians by changing their profile pics to Palestinians flags when children are murdered by IAF, but when swiftly changed to Ukrainian flag when Russia kills Ukrainians? Are you afraid your will be labelled as an anti-semite? Yeah, you are.

This has nothing at all to do with how Isreal treats Arabs, we're talking about Israel treating Palestinians. Examples of other atrocities do not count in this thread.
 
Lets not change the topic here. The question is simple, why are the atrocities of Isreal towards Palestinians not met with the same level of condemnation by the West as seen towards Russia towards Ukraine?

Or better put, why are liberals not showing solidarity towards Palestinians by changing their profile pics to Palestinians flags when children are murdered by IAF, but when swiftly changed to Ukrainian flag when Russia kills Ukrainians? Are you afraid your will be labelled as an anti-semite? Yeah, you are.

This has nothing at all to do with how Isreal treats Arabs, we're talking about Israel treating Palestinians. Examples of other atrocities do not count in this thread.

Exactly. The flip flopping is embarrassing.
 
Same reason no Muslim here cares about the genocide of half a million Samoans carried out over the last sixty years by a Muslim nation. Outrage is selective, run through one's own neural filters. These pick what we get outraged about.
 
Forget Muslims, many non-Muslims are unaware of what goes on in the other side of the world, unless the news affects the Western agenda - who is to blame? Western media with their selective reporting.

Trying to change the subject based on news that is not reported in the West is desperation all round, plus the thread is clear to WESTERN view of the world.

Now lets stop using an extenuating circumstance that someone read about 2 days ago, to circumvent the topic.

In any case, the fact remains, Western politicians and citizens will not condemn Isreal, but will condemn other governments. Why?

Liberals need to stop turning such topics into Islam vs. The rest. You used it to justify the support of Putin, and are now using this excuse to invalidate the topic in the OP.
 
Exactly. The flip flopping is embarrassing.

Beyond embarrassing, we hear about Western values but when it comes to Isreal, these values go out the window.

As the saying goes along these lines - if you want to know who controls you, look no further than the ones you cannot criticise.
 
Israel had a noble liberal, European history.

And it has descended into right-wing nationalist nonsense. It’s very sad.

Not all were Europeans though - a million Jews arrived by 1950 from Arab countries, Iran and Afghanistan - either voluntarily or through expulsion; 300K Russian Jews arrived after then collapse of USSR. So the Jewish population rose very fast.
 
Not all were Europeans though - a million Jews arrived by 1950 from Arab countries, Iran and Afghanistan - either voluntarily or through expulsion; 300K Russian Jews arrived after then collapse of USSR. So the Jewish population rose very fast.
Think he means it was a modern democracy, 'European'
 
Gaza City – Amina Ashkinan’s grandchildren were playing in front of their house at Jabalia refugee camp in the northern Gaza Strip on Saturday when an Israeli strike came from the sky.

Her granddaughter, 10-year-old Mayar, was hit by shrapnel in the abdomen. Her grandson, nine-year-old Ahmed, got injuries all over his body. Both children were rushed to Shifa Medical Complex in Gaza City, just two of the dozens of Palestinians to be transported to the main hospital in the Gaza Strip during Israel’s latest bombardment of the besieged enclave.

Mayar was immediately taken to the operation room. Her condition, along with that of her brother, has since stabilised but Ashkinan is still worried.

For days, Palestinian health officials had been issuing warnings of an imminent stop in the provision of medical services due to the lack of fuel needed to operate the electricity generators in hospitals and health facilities across Gaza. The Strip’s only power plant had shut down on Saturday, days after Israel stopped the planned transport of fuel into the territory.

“The situation is so sad and unimaginable,” Ashkinan, 65, said at the hospital. “No human being can bear what we bear – from the war going on against us, the defenceless civilians, or from the constant power cuts or the running out of fuel?

“What is our fault, and what is the fault of our children, for all this to happen to them?”

‘A real catastrophe’

At least 15 children were among the 44 people killed in the Gaza Strip in three days of Israeli bombardment, according to Palestinian health ministry officials. Late on Sunday, Israel and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad armed group declared a truce that appeared to be holding on Monday morning.

Mohammad Abu Salmiya, Shifa’s director, said the collapse of the health sector was an inevitable result of the 15-year Israeli blockade imposed on the Strip.

Now, he added, the electricity crisis only came to exacerbate the sector’s woes, paralysing all departments and especially the intensive care unit, the oxygen-generating stations and nurseries.

“There are more than 25 injuries who need surgeries; there are wounded in intensive care departments in critical conditions, and there are children, women and the elderly who are injured,” he told Al Jazeera on Sunday.

“The numbers indicate the excessive use of force in the Israeli bombing. There are injuries that require medical interventions from different specialities,” Abu Salmiya said, warning that the health sector faced “a real catastrophe” if Israel renewed its offensive.

“We are at a very critical stage.”

‘We are very tired’

In another room in Shifa, Suad al-Bis lies on her back. The five-year-old girl was wounded on Saturday when an Israeli strike hit an empty plot of land next to her family home in the Bedouin village of Beit Hanoon, known as Erez to Israelis, in the northern Gaza Strip.

“Because of [how heavy] the bombardment [was], my granddaughter fell on her stomach with such force that it directly affected her spleen,” said her grandmother, Suad, 56.

The girl was initially transferred to Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza, before being taken to Shifa due to the complexity of her condition and the medical shortages there.

“The doctors reassured us that her condition is finally stable,” said the grandmother. “But there is still a concern that she will be able to eat and drink and will be kept under observation,” she added.

“The doctors here are doing everything they can to help the wounded, but the weakness of the capabilities and the pressure of the cases hinder them.”

“We are simple people; we were sitting in our homes safely, and [in] every war we are subjected to displacement and bombing. We are very tired.”

‘A death sentence for us’

The Israeli bombardment of Gaza was the worst since an 11-day war in May last year that killed more than 260 Palestinians and wounded some 2,000 others.

The latest onslaught began on Friday, when Israel launched what it said was a “preemptive” operation against Islamic Jihad. Palestinian observers said the attack was weeks in the making by the Israeli government, calling it a deliberate act to gain legitimacy ahead of new elections in November.

“It was a normal day when we had lunch, until we heard a huge explosion; then the walls of the house collapsed on us,” said Ahmed Abu Ramadan, the brother of Islam Abu Ramadan, who was wounded on Friday when Israel struck an apartment next to theirs in residential Palestine Tower in Gaza City.

“It was a very traumatic moment. I carried my sister, and I was screaming to save my father and mother,” recalled Ahmed, 23.

Islam sustained injuries to her hand, face and body. Her parents were also moderately injured and are still under medical care.

“Stopping medical services for the wounded in these circumstances is a death sentence for us and all the residents of the Gaza Strip,” Ahmed said.

“The situation is unbearable, and we are still in a very difficult psychological state. When will the world move to end the injustice against the people of the Gaza Strip?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/8/gaza-hospital-on-breakpoint-after-israeli-bombardment
 
So:

1. Killings of Arab civilians by the Egyptian junta since 2013 outnumber killings of Palestinian civilians by Israel.
2. Killings of Yemeni civilians by the Saudi armed forces outnumber killings of Palestinian civilians by Israel.
3. The Jordanians killed 25,000 Palestinians in 1970-71 (source - PLO leader Yasser Arafat): more than Israel has killed in the entire period 1968-2022.

As I pointed out, Yemeni civilians are being bombed by six Gulf and Arab states, not just Saudi Arabia.

It appears that the greatest threat to the life of a ME or Gulf state Muslim is not a ISAF smart bomb or IDF bullet, but from a Muslim of a different power structure.

I know that's more whataboutery, but the entire thread starting with the OP is whataboutery so it seems pertinent.
 
Muslims condemn Saudi government for the war in Yemen.

Why do not Atheists, Christians etc, living in the West condemn Isreal publicly for their treatment towards Palestinians? Why is it a struggle to answer this question? Scared of being labeled are anti-semite? Or the hate for Islam is so great?

The OP is not about whataboutery, the OP exposes the hypocrisy of the West, which is why Western liberals have deviated the question in the OP and have switched to changing the topic of the thread.
 
Might is right it is as simple as that! Weird thing is some Pakistanis like Ahmed Qureshi have become so pro Israel.

Way to go.

There's no reason for Pakistan to be more loyal than the king when the sheikhs themselves are crafting a nifty relationship between themselves and Israel.
 
As long as Hamas keeps firing rockets into Israeli territory, they will not get any sympathy. The worst part of it is that Hamas uses human shields while firing rockets at Israel.

Looks like you have been watching too much pro Israeli news
 
Way to go.

There's no reason for Pakistan to be more loyal than the king when the sheikhs themselves are crafting a nifty relationship between themselves and Israel.

Pak has to do what is right by itself. This is not to say we should recognize Israel or side with the Arabs. Just remain neutral on the Arab-Israel conflict. It has nothing to do with us.
 
At 4pm last Friday, residents of the Palestine apartment building on Al-Shohada Street in Gaza were eating, sleeping or relaxing on their day off.

Then, the Israelis struck the complex from above.

Their target was a man called Tayseer al Jabari who was visiting relatives on the sixth floor.

He was a senior commander in the Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad, the second largest such organisation on the Gaza Strip.

Al Jabari was killed in the attack.

But the military commander wasn't the only person in the building. There are multiple flats in this 14-storey structure, including one belonging to the Abu Ramadan family. They lived directly below.

We saw the remains of their apartment. The twisted frame of their front door had just about held its position but the rest had been completely destroyed.

The living room sofa was torn and covered in lumps of concrete and there were great holes in the ceiling, where the neighbours' flat had fallen into the Abu Ramadans'.

We found members of the family in Gaza City's Al Shafa hospital. Neveen Abu Ramadan, 50, was lying in a bed, her body laced with multiple shrapnel wounds.

The doctors are particularly worried about her left leg.

Her mother, Rabab, lifted a sheet and showed us Neveen's swollen limb, discoloured in varying shades of purple and blue. Medics think they will probably need to amputate it.

I asked Neveen how she was feeling. "It is a tragedy," she said. "I am still asking myself why I am alive. I just don't believe it. I am still in shock, you know we are civilians."

Grandmother Rabab decided to tell us the story.

"She and her husband were sleeping on their (fronts) in the afternoon, with two daughters and two sons in the room. They heard the ceiling, broken on their backs and her back is injured."

"The ceiling came in on them?" I said.

"Yes, and also the ground broke in on their neighbours. So they fell through onto their neighbours.

"From the fifth floor to fourth floor it's broken. Their two sons got them out, bleeding, bleeding, bleeding."

One of Neveen's daughters, 29-year-old Islam, was being operated on while we were there.

She has suffered from internal bleeding and the doctors at Al Shafa hospital are trying to remove blood clots that have formed in her body.

The aftermath of this attack was caught by a local camera operator. In his pictures, we see residents congregating outside the entrance. Some are carried - others walk out on their own - but everyone looks traumatised and covered in dust.

The Israelis say they do everything they can to avoid civilian casualties but that is not a realistic proposition when they take aim at buildings like the Palestinian apartment block.

The health ministry in Gaza says 44 people died during three days of fighting which began last Friday.

More than 350 others were injured. A ceasefire agreement, negotiated by the Egyptians, seems to be holding and something like normality has crept back into the Gaza Strip.

But life will never be the same for the Abu Ramadans, who had managed to live peacefully in the Palestine complex for the previous 29 years.

SKY
 
At 4pm last Friday, residents of the Palestine apartment building on Al-Shohada Street in Gaza were eating, sleeping or relaxing on their day off.

Then, the Israelis struck the complex from above.

Their target was a man called Tayseer al Jabari who was visiting relatives on the sixth floor.

He was a senior commander in the Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad, the second largest such organisation on the Gaza Strip.

Al Jabari was killed in the attack.

But the military commander wasn't the only person in the building. There are multiple flats in this 14-storey structure, including one belonging to the Abu Ramadan family. They lived directly below.

We saw the remains of their apartment. The twisted frame of their front door had just about held its position but the rest had been completely destroyed.

The living room sofa was torn and covered in lumps of concrete and there were great holes in the ceiling, where the neighbours' flat had fallen into the Abu Ramadans'.

We found members of the family in Gaza City's Al Shafa hospital. Neveen Abu Ramadan, 50, was lying in a bed, her body laced with multiple shrapnel wounds.

The doctors are particularly worried about her left leg.

Her mother, Rabab, lifted a sheet and showed us Neveen's swollen limb, discoloured in varying shades of purple and blue. Medics think they will probably need to amputate it.

I asked Neveen how she was feeling. "It is a tragedy," she said. "I am still asking myself why I am alive. I just don't believe it. I am still in shock, you know we are civilians."

Grandmother Rabab decided to tell us the story.

"She and her husband were sleeping on their (fronts) in the afternoon, with two daughters and two sons in the room. They heard the ceiling, broken on their backs and her back is injured."

"The ceiling came in on them?" I said.

"Yes, and also the ground broke in on their neighbours. So they fell through onto their neighbours.

"From the fifth floor to fourth floor it's broken. Their two sons got them out, bleeding, bleeding, bleeding."

One of Neveen's daughters, 29-year-old Islam, was being operated on while we were there.

She has suffered from internal bleeding and the doctors at Al Shafa hospital are trying to remove blood clots that have formed in her body.

The aftermath of this attack was caught by a local camera operator. In his pictures, we see residents congregating outside the entrance. Some are carried - others walk out on their own - but everyone looks traumatised and covered in dust.

The Israelis say they do everything they can to avoid civilian casualties but that is not a realistic proposition when they take aim at buildings like the Palestinian apartment block.

The health ministry in Gaza says 44 people died during three days of fighting which began last Friday.

More than 350 others were injured. A ceasefire agreement, negotiated by the Egyptians, seems to be holding and something like normality has crept back into the Gaza Strip.

But life will never be the same for the Abu Ramadans, who had managed to live peacefully in the Palestine complex for the previous 29 years.

SKY

Horrible.

So, they bombed an entire building filled with people just to assassinate one guy.

This action alone is enough to call Israel a terrorist state. No civilized entity can behave like this.
 
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It's possible that I am living in an alternate universe where I see zero condemnation directed at Israel for its atrocities vs Palestinians whilst Russia is being marked as a bully/murderer on a daily basis.

I know you're wise enough to understand why as well, in today's world no one is naive to be surprised by the prevalent duplicity.

Countries only condemn the countries/people/race that they really don't like. An honest nation that prioritised human lives, justice, equality etc.. instead of diplomacy, would simply be an isolated one. Nations hand pick the causes that suit them.

Very little resources to support all the suffering..... Palestinians, Yemenis, Rohingya, Ukrainians, Kurds, Kashmiris, Uyghurs, Ahmadiyyas, Sudan, Myanmar etc...etc...etc...

Who all are we supposed to condemn? The whole world including us, are implicated in turning a blind eye towards one suffering or the other. All of us are very adept at justifying our priorities as well.
 
I know you're wise enough to understand why as well, in today's world no one is naive to be surprised by the prevalent duplicity.

Countries only condemn the countries/people/race that they really don't like. An honest nation that prioritised human lives, justice, equality etc.. instead of diplomacy, would simply be an isolated one. Nations hand pick the causes that suit them.

Very little resources to support all the suffering..... Palestinians, Yemenis, Rohingya, Ukrainians, Kurds, Kashmiris, Uyghurs, Ahmadiyyas, Sudan, Myanmar etc...etc...etc...

Who all are we supposed to condemn? The whole world including us, are implicated in turning a blind eye towards one suffering or the other. All of us are very adept at justifying our priorities as well.

This is a wise post.

Plenty of people on this thread rail against Israel and Saudi Arabia while turning a blind eye to the suffering of fellow Muslims in Russia, Syria and China.

All outrage is selective. Someone will always be suffering. We can’t be angry all the time, because it would make us mentally ill.

“Think globally, act locally” is a good maxim. Be woke to the sufferings of people around the world and identify the themes. Then work to make your own community better - become active in a political party, give some hours to help a food bank, support the charities of your choice, volunteer to support and mentor at-risk youngsters. Give your service to help others. All of these are far better uses of your life than shouting into the void on a message board.
 
In the West, Politicians and Civilians are pretty much forbidden from criticising Isreal in public. Save the freedom of speech card.

This is the point, and the key difference from atrocities carried out from other governments. In the West you are free to criticise any government around the world, except Isreal. Why?

All the woke dancing in the world will not change this fact.
 
I know you're wise enough to understand why as well, in today's world no one is naive to be surprised by the prevalent duplicity.

Countries only condemn the countries/people/race that they really don't like. An honest nation that prioritised human lives, justice, equality etc.. instead of diplomacy, would simply be an isolated one. Nations hand pick the causes that suit them.

Very little resources to support all the suffering..... Palestinians, Yemenis, Rohingya, Ukrainians, Kurds, Kashmiris, Uyghurs, Ahmadiyyas, Sudan, Myanmar etc...etc...etc...

Who all are we supposed to condemn? The whole world including us, are implicated in turning a blind eye towards one suffering or the other. All of us are very adept at justifying our priorities as well.

The thread is about israel and its barbaric treatment of innocent Palestinian people which it bombardes and tortures on a regular basis yet zilch condemnation from western Governments and also their puppet regimes from around the Globe.

The sad reality is even on a message board we have the zionest apologists who spin the facts to suit their narrative and cant find the decency in themselves to stick to the thread and condone the MOST barbaric, racist, regime ive ever come across in the apartheid state of israel.
 
In the West, Politicians and Civilians are pretty much forbidden from criticising Isreal in public. Save the freedom of speech card.

This is the point, and the key difference from atrocities carried out from other governments. In the West you are free to criticise any government around the world, except Isreal. Why?

All the woke dancing in the world will not change this fact.

I don't know where you live but you are able to freely criticize the Israel government in the west.

Someone is programming you to think otherwise.
 
I don't know where you live but you are able to freely criticize the Israel government in the west.

Someone is programming you to think otherwise.

As I have said, you do not live in the West, you have no idea.

For the record, NO, you are not free to criticise Isreal, people who have, including politicians, have learned the hard way.
 
In the West, Politicians and Civilians are pretty much forbidden from criticising Isreal in public. Save the freedom of speech card.

This is the point, and the key difference from atrocities carried out from other governments. In the West you are free to criticise any government around the world, except Isreal.

Don’t agree with this. No doubt criticism of Israeli government and military policies in the West will draw Israel supporters and Zionists out of the woodwork, but supporting Palestine is a legitimate position on moral, political and humanitarian grounds and can be successfully argued as such.
 
Don’t agree with this. No doubt criticism of Israeli government and military policies in the West will draw Israel supporters and Zionists out of the woodwork, but supporting Palestine is a legitimate position on moral, political and humanitarian grounds and can be successfully argued as such.

Jeremy Corbyn says hi.
Ken Livingstone says hi.


Criticice Isreal, and you're an anti-semite. You know this is true.
 
Don’t agree with this. No doubt criticism of Israeli government and military policies in the West will draw Israel supporters and Zionists out of the woodwork, but supporting Palestine is a legitimate position on moral, political and humanitarian grounds and can be successfully argued as such.

I attended a lecture by a church group recently. They provide medical relief and supply temporary housing to dispossessed Palestinians. The presenters explained point by point how Israel has and is breaking the Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories. We heard of one Palestinian elder lady whose home had been bulldozed. The church group gave her a tent and bedding. The IDF confiscated it. The group gave her another tent and more bedding and some food.

Nothing happened to the church group as a result of this lecture. No secret police, no legal sanctions.
 
Jeremy Corbyn says hi.
Ken Livingstone says hi.


Criticice Isreal, and you're an anti-semite. You know this is true.

It’s not this simple. Both men have criticised Israel legitimately but also did some foot-in-mouth clangers on top of this — Ken made a controversial point about a period of history which had predated the existence of the state of Israel, and Jeremy meanwhile had the comments like “they don’t understand English irony”, defending the Protocol of the Elders of Zion graffiti mural in London, and laying a wreath at the Black September memorial when he was famously “present but not involved”. Jeremy has been very clumsy with his discourse about Israel related stuff. Not saying that he is an antisemite btw.
 
Intellectual dishonesty on display again.

Church groups are not politicians, and the UN is aware of Israel breaking the Geneva convention, but no one takes any action. Veto Veto Veto from Western governments.

This forum is proof, all the noise from so called humanitarians but they will not criticise Isreal in fear of being labelled anti-semite. Go on, give it a go, and while you are at it, I dare you humanitarians to criticise Isreal on Social media.

Call LBC criticise Isreal and they will cut you off. Criticise Iran, they will keep on the hook for as long as they want.
 
It’s not this simple. Both men have criticised Israel legitimately but also did some foot-in-mouth clangers on top of this — Ken made a controversial point about a period of history which had predated the existence of the state of Israel, and Jeremy meanwhile had the comments like “they don’t understand English irony”, defending the Protocol of the Elders of Zion graffiti mural in London, and laying a wreath at the Black September memorial when he was famously “present but not involved”. Jeremy has been very clumsy with his discourse about Israel related stuff. Not saying that he is an antisemite btw.

JC made some clumsy comments, who doesn't? What did he exactly say that was anti-Semitic? Nothing, as you say. All he did was support the Palestinian cause? The media were against him from day one, the old skool photos of him with Muslim 'terrorists', were plastered across all over the media. He was tried, judged, and executed by the media, and you know who controls the media. He paid the price, even though his supporters voted for him as leader, twice!

KL, all he did was mention the Harvana agreement, a historical fact, why was he labelled an anti-Semite? What exactly was anti-Semitic about citing a historical agreement? Nothing. Yet he was labelled an AS, lost his job, all for what? Highlighting Zionists wanted to hide the fact they made a deal with Hitler

It's the same in USA, AIPAC has a strong hold on Congress, and Senate, and the members of HoR cannot say a word against Isreal.
 
The thread is about israel and its barbaric treatment of innocent Palestinian people which it bombardes and tortures on a regular basis yet zilch condemnation from western Governments and also their puppet regimes from around the Globe.

The sad reality is even on a message board we have the zionest apologists who spin the facts to suit their narrative and cant find the decency in themselves to stick to the thread and condone the MOST barbaric, racist, regime ive ever come across in the apartheid state of israel.

The thread questions the news coverage of two different atrocities committed in two different conflict zones, and questions the bias; Isn't it? I did not justify or apologise for the Israelis, my post explains that people and nations pick and choose the causes that they are vocal about and the ones they choose to ignore. We all do it and that's a fact, no spin.
 
As I have said, you do not live in the West, you have no idea.

For the record, NO, you are not free to criticise Isreal, people who have, including politicians, have learned the hard way.

You have been brainwashed, anyone in the west is free to criticize Israel. You are making up lies.
 
The Media decides which news is worthy of news to the people.

We do not have enough time to read about every single piece of news around the world.

In the West, we will hear about Russia/Ukraine, we will hear about Isreal/Palestinians, but when was the last time we had news from a war in Africa on front page news followed up by relentless reporting and live coverage?

We cannot be outraged by something we are not aware of, but we can be outraged by what we consistently hear/read/aware of - and right now, the hypocrisy of outrage is crystal clear.
 
You have been brainwashed, anyone in the west is free to criticize Israel. You are making up lies.

Liar. You are just trying to wriggle out based on pedantry.

You do not live in the West. Stop pretending you do. and no, West is not defined as White Christian Race, so Australia is not a Western country. You have your own problems to deal with, like searching for a national identity.
 
It’s not this simple. Both men have criticised Israel legitimately but also did some foot-in-mouth clangers on top of this — Ken made a controversial point about a period of history which had predated the existence of the state of Israel, and Jeremy meanwhile had the comments like “they don’t understand English irony”, defending the Protocol of the Elders of Zion graffiti mural in London, and laying a wreath at the Black September memorial when he was famously “present but not involved”. Jeremy has been very clumsy with his discourse about Israel related stuff. Not saying that he is an antisemite btw.

Agreed. Livingstone misrepresented an historic event which was effectively a deportation of Jews to Palestine by the National Socialists. I don't think Corbyn is an anti-semite either, but he made some bad judgements in standing on platforms to people who were full-on anti-semites.
 
Fighting for the Palestinian cause doesn't make one an anti-Semite, this is Zionist media brainwashing talking. Hamas are freedom fighters.
 
The thread questions the news coverage of two different atrocities committed in two different conflict zones, and questions the bias; Isn't it? I did not justify or apologise for the Israelis, my post explains that people and nations pick and choose the causes that they are vocal about and the ones they choose to ignore. We all do it and that's a fact, no spin.

I personally do not ignore the polite of others suffering, generally from the brutal NATO oppression. But this thread is about the zionest state of Israel and the Palestinian people.
 
Muslims condemn Saudi government for the war in Yemen.

Why do not Atheists, Christians etc, living in the West condemn Isreal publicly for their treatment towards Palestinians? Why is it a struggle to answer this question?

Maybe because for every 1 Arab civilian that Israel has killed in the last 40 years, Saudi Arabia has killed around 100 Arab civilians in Yemen alone in the last 5 years.
 
Maybe because for every 1 Arab civilian that Israel has killed in the last 40 years, Saudi Arabia has killed around 100 Arab civilians in Yemen alone in the last 5 years.

As usual you have not answered the question.

The war between Israelis and Palestinians has been happening for over 50 years, Yemen war only 5 years, Saudis have been condemned by Muslims, Israel have not been condemned by Western Christians nations.

Your attempt at the answer however does prove, the Judeo-Christians do not bat an eye-lid when Muslims die, and yes, more than 6 Million Muslims have died at the hands of the JC Gestapo.
 
Maybe because for every 1 Arab civilian that Israel has killed in the last 40 years, Saudi Arabia has killed around 100 Arab civilians in Yemen alone in the last 5 years.

This thread is about the zionest israelis brutal actions against the Palestinians and the lack of condemnations from the zionest apologists.

Its clear you dont have it in you to condemn such horrific acts so all this flip flopping is pretty shameless to be honest.
 
I personally do not ignore the polite of others suffering, generally from the brutal NATO oppression. But this thread is about the zionest state of Israel and the Palestinian people.

If you read the title you will see it is about selective outrage and why people including Muslims are angered by some conflicts but not others.

It's an interesting topic to do with one's own psychology. We all ignore some issues and embrace some others.
 
This thread is about the zionest israelis brutal actions against the Palestinians and the lack of condemnations from the zionest apologists.

Its clear you dont have it in you to condemn such horrific acts so all this flip flopping is pretty shameless to be honest.

That's not a reasonable comment.

I have clearly condemned the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, although I blame Jordan and Egypt for seizing them in 1948 when the UN had declared them, including East Jerusalem, to be the newly independent nation of Palestine.

Israel militarily seized small areas of Palestine in 1948, but the 1949 Armistice left us with the Green Line that everyone except extremists on either side (Jewish and Arab) accepts as the rightful border between Israel and Palestine.

I repeat, the nation of Palestine was there to start life at the 1949 Armistice - and the reason why it didn't is because Egypt helped itself to Gaza and Jordan helped itself to the West Bank.

I have written at length that I don't like how Israel has become more right-wing and less tolerant of Arabs.

But the bottom line stands: the Arab people who have the best quality of life in the Middle East (but I will add Pakistan and Bangladesh too) are the ones who are citizens and residents of Israel proper. I would far, far, far rather be a Muslim resident of Israel than a Muslim resident of Pakistan.
 
The word 'Muslims' was not used in the OP. Why do liberals continue lying, and applying spin, in an attempt to conceal their hypocrisy? So many attempts to derail this thread to a religious cause that it is not even funny!

As a humanitarian, where is the objectivity of human life, and the loss of it?

It is clear, according to JC, Liberals and the West, the life of a Russian is worth less than an Israeli, and the life of a Palestinian is worth less than the two!
 
That's not a reasonable comment.

I have clearly condemned the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, although I blame Jordan and Egypt for seizing them in 1948 when the UN had declared them, including East Jerusalem, to be the newly independent nation of Palestine.

Israel militarily seized small areas of Palestine in 1948, but the 1949 Armistice left us with the Green Line that everyone except extremists on either side (Jewish and Arab) accepts as the rightful border between Israel and Palestine.

I repeat, the nation of Palestine was there to start life at the 1949 Armistice - and the reason why it didn't is because Egypt helped itself to Gaza and Jordan helped itself to the West Bank.

I have written at length that I don't like how Israel has become more right-wing and less tolerant of Arabs.

But the bottom line stands: the Arab people who have the best quality of life in the Middle East (but I will add Pakistan and Bangladesh too) are the ones who are citizens and residents of Israel proper. I would far, far, far rather be a Muslim resident of Israel than a Muslim resident of Pakistan.

Your response is not reasonable, not even relevant, in fact it is waffle.

You are clearly trying to justify Isreal's aggression towards Palestinians by insinuating Palestinians and neighboring Arab nations were/are at fault and the blame consequently lies with them, not Isreal.

Shame on you.
 
As usual you have not answered the question.

The war between Israelis and Palestinians has been happening for over 50 years, .

As usual, you need to go back and read the history of this thing.

By 1947, the British had agreed to UN demands for Mandatory Palestine to be partitioned like India into Palestine and Israel.

The Israelis actually accepted this. Golda Meir, later to become their Prime Minister, was a representative at talks and wrote later that King Abdullah of Transjordan took a completely different position to the rest of the Arab League.

The rest of the Arabs wanted a Palestinian state. Abdullah wanted to annexe the future Palestinian state into Transjordan - as per its name - and basically aided and abetted Israel's victory so that he could seize the West Bank and Gaza and most of all Jerusalem. This was important to him, because his Hashemite family had controlled the Hejaz until Ibn Saud seized it in 1925, and he wanted to offset its loss by claiming East Jerusalem.

And that's exactly what happened. Israel in the 1948 added a small amount of territory to what the UN had awarded it in the partition. But the Palestinians lost their homeland because King Abdullah of Transjordan took it from them - not the Israelis.

And don't forget, King Abdullah's grandson King Hussein launched Black September against the Palestinian refugees in Jordan in 1970, killing more Palestinians than Israel had in the entire Six Day War.

But you only ever want to talk about how Israel has damaged the Palestinian cause. You completely ignore that its actually the actions of their Arab cousins which have robbed them of their country.

Even now, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt and Jordan are actually closer friends of Israel than of the Palestinians.
 
As usual, you need to go back and read the history of this thing.

You are doing it again. Forget about history (your understanding of history is questionable anyway).

You are clearly blaming neighboring Arabs/Palestinians for the Israeli aggression towards Palestinians, then go look up history of Jews, and understand that Jews should not be in Isreal, THEN apply your logic in this thread, and go start blaming Jews for everything that has happened to them.
 
Jeremy Corbyn says hi.
Ken Livingstone says hi.


Criticice Isreal, and you're an anti-semite. You know this is true.

The magnificent Gerald "Whisper, whisper, whisper" Kaufman was a Jew and a Zionist as well as a Labour MP.

This is what he said to the House of Commons in 2009:

"My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

Source: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gerald-kaufman-zionist-who-turned-israel-disgust
 
The magnificent Gerald "Whisper, whisper, whisper" Kaufman was a Jew and a Zionist as well as a Labour MP.

This is what he said to the House of Commons in 2009:

"My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed. My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

Source: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gerald-kaufman-zionist-who-turned-israel-disgust

Ahhh this old chestnut of logic.

A black man says the N-word to another black man and he's not racist, but a white man says the N word, he is.

If you are going to pull out this sort of logic then look up
Benjamin Harrison Freedman.
 
If you read the title you will see it is about selective outrage and why people including Muslims are angered by some conflicts but not others.

It's an interesting topic to do with one's own psychology. We all ignore some issues and embrace some others.

Its all in your mind. Bottom line is this thread is on the zionest apartheid state of israels barbaric actions on innocent civilians.
 
That's not a reasonable comment.

I have clearly condemned the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, although I blame Jordan and Egypt for seizing them in 1948 when the UN had declared them, including East Jerusalem, to be the newly independent nation of Palestine.

Israel militarily seized small areas of Palestine in 1948, but the 1949 Armistice left us with the Green Line that everyone except extremists on either side (Jewish and Arab) accepts as the rightful border between Israel and Palestine.

I repeat, the nation of Palestine was there to start life at the 1949 Armistice - and the reason why it didn't is because Egypt helped itself to Gaza and Jordan helped itself to the West Bank.

I have written at length that I don't like how Israel has become more right-wing and less tolerant of Arabs.

But the bottom line stands: the Arab people who have the best quality of life in the Middle East (but I will add Pakistan and Bangladesh too) are the ones who are citizens and residents of Israel proper. I would far, far, far rather be a Muslim resident of Israel than a Muslim resident of Pakistan.

Once again you are derailing the thread.
 
Wrong.

Your claims of discriminatory laws related to the Occupied Territories - not Israel.

There are basically two options:
1 A Two-State Solution, in which Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel, and Israeli laws for Israel do not apply - but those Occupied Territories' 4.5 million Palestinians do not have tjhe voting rights in Israel that the 2.3 million Israeli Arabs have.

or

2. A One-State Solution, in which all the Arabs and Israelis share all the land from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River.

At present all major Arab entities have opted for the two state solution. That being the case, the Palestinians residents of the Occupied Territories do not have the rights in Israel that Israelis have. (And in my opinion the Jewish settlers in the West Bank should be strictly treated as Palestinian Jews - not Israelis.).

Again its clear you didnt read the reports I eve highlighted in bold to make it easier for you. lol

There are many laws which discriminate against Arab citizens of Israel, most schoolchildren with basic education know this.

You are denying this fact and claim you know it all?

So answer these two basic questions.

1. Why do you support a 'nation' which is illegally occupying others?

2. Why arent you able to accept Arabs in Israel are not treated like the Jews of Israel?
 
That's not a reasonable comment.

I have clearly condemned the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, although I blame Jordan and Egypt for seizing them in 1948 when the UN had declared them, including East Jerusalem, to be the newly independent nation of Palestine.

Israel militarily seized small areas of Palestine in 1948, but the 1949 Armistice left us with the Green Line that everyone except extremists on either side (Jewish and Arab) accepts as the rightful border between Israel and Palestine.

I repeat, the nation of Palestine was there to start life at the 1949 Armistice - and the reason why it didn't is because Egypt helped itself to Gaza and Jordan helped itself to the West Bank.

I have written at length that I don't like how Israel has become more right-wing and less tolerant of Arabs.

But the bottom line stands: the Arab people who have the best quality of life in the Middle East (but I will add Pakistan and Bangladesh too) are the ones who are citizens and residents of Israel proper. I would far, far, far rather be a Muslim resident of Israel than a Muslim resident of Pakistan.

Can you communicate this to the Israeli Arab family of a baby who an Israeli settler deliberately blinded?
 
According to Junaids, Arab countries treat their Arab citizens worse than Israel treats its Arab citizens, yet we see such examples:-

Israel is stoking a civil war against its Palestinian citizens

Jonathan Cook

Three separate, deadly Palestinian attacks in Israeli cities in a week have elicited a predictable response. The Israeli army has drafted large numbers of extra soldiers into the West Bank and around Gaza, Palestinian territories already under decades of brutal military occupation.

But the fact that, unusually, two of the attacks were carried out by Israeli citizens - members of a large Palestinian minority whose rights are severely circumscribed and inferior to those of the Jewish majority - has raised the stakes considerably for the Israeli right.

The attacks gave Bennett the opportunity to prove his credentials to his party’s main constituency: Jewish settlers determined to drive Palestinians off their lands

A total of 11 Israelis died in the attacks a few days apart in the cities of Beersheba, Hadera and Bnei Brak, a suburb of Tel Aviv. Trigger-happy Israeli forces killed three Palestinians in separate incidents on Thursday, in the immediate wake of the attacks.

The lethal attacks were an opportunity for Naftali Bennett, the far-right leader who snatched the Israeli premiership from Benjamin Netanyahu last summer, to prove his credentials to his party’s main constituency: Jewish settlers determined to drive Palestinians off their lands and reclaim a supposed biblical birthright.

In a video statement, Bennett told "whoever has a gun licence" - meaning overwhelmingly Jewish citizens - “this is the time to carry a gun”. And if that wasn’t enough, he went on to announce that the government was considering “a larger framework to involve civilian volunteers who want to help and be of assistance”.

Street violence
What that means in practice is not hard to decipher. Nearly a year ago, the intensification of long-running moves to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah in occupied East Jerusalem became one of the triggers for the worst inter-communal violence in Israel in at least a generation.

Palestinian citizens who staged angry demonstrations found themselves not just facing the expected crackdown from Israel’s paramilitary police, but street violence from far-right Jewish mobs that appeared to be operating in tandem with Israeli security forces.

For the first time it looked as though the Israeli leadership was moving a key feature of the occupation inside the Green Line.

In the occupied territories, armed settlers operate effectively as militias, terrorising nearby Palestinian communities, watched impassively, or sometimes assisted, by the Israeli army. They act as the long arm of the Israeli state - offering plausible deniability for Israeli officials as they exploit the settlers’ violence.


The aim of both the settlers and the Israeli state is the same: to drive Palestinians from their homes so Jewish settlers can take over the vacated land.

Last spring, the use of that same model inside Israel became harder to disguise. The Israeli government appeared to be contracting out parts of its domestic security to the same fanatical and violent settlers, allowing them to be bussed into Palestinian communities inside Israel unhindered. There they acted as vigilantes.

They smashed Palestinian shops, chanted “Death to the Arabs”, and beat up Palestinian citizens who crossed their path. At the same time, Israeli politicians from across the spectrum incited against the Palestinian minority.

Now Bennett gives every appearance of hoping to exploit the three attacks to put this earlier arrangement on a more formal footing.

Notably, a “Barel Rangers” militia has already been formed in the Negev region, in Israel’s south, where one of the attacks occurred. The founder, a former police officer, set out its purpose in a social media post: “When your life is under threat, it’s only you and the terrorist. You are the policeman, the judge and the executioner.”

Another militia has recently been established in Lod, a city near Tel Aviv, that saw the worst violence last May.

Playing with fire
Bennett’s call for "civilian volunteers" to defend the Jewish state was presumably intended to echo Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, who has urged Ukrainian civilians to fight the invading Russian army. Bennett may hope that in the current international climate there will be little criticism of Jewish militias acting similarly.

'If we reach a civil war situation, things will end in one word and a situation you know, which is Nakba. This is what will happen in the end'

- Uzi Dayan, Likud MK

But whereas Zelensky has called on Ukrainians to fight foreign invaders, Bennett is rallying militias to attack his country’s own citizens, based on their ethnicity. He is playing with fire, stoking a mood of civil war in which one side, Jewish Israelis, have the weapons and state resources, while the other - the Palestinian minority - is largely defenceless.

Notably, after the second recent attack in the Jewish city of Hadera on Tuesday - by two Palestinian citizens - a mob formed chanting "Death to the Arabs".

Where this might lead was underscored by a retired army general, Uzi Dayan, now a member of the Israeli parliament for Netanyahu’s Likud party. He warned all of Israel’s 1.8 million Palestinian citizens to “be careful”. They faced, he said, another Nakba, or Catastrophe - the mass ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homeland by Israeli militias and the army in 1948.

“If we reach a civil war situation, things will end in one word and a situation you know, which is Nakba,” he said. “This is what will happen in the end.” He added: “We are stronger. We are holding back on a lot of things.” The ethnic cleansing associated with the Nakba “was not completed”, he noted.

That is not a situation Palestinian citizens will be able to avoid if Israeli leaders will it. Many in the minority have been afraid to leave their homes, go to work or venture into Jewish areas - which is most of the country - for fear of reprisals. And that is precisely because Bennett and Dayan represent a vast swathe of opinion in Israel that views Palestinians - even Palestinian citizens - as the enemy.

The measures being “held back”, as Dayan phrased it, could include not only more state-backed violence but efforts to strip the Palestinian minority of even their degraded citizenship status.

For nearly two decades, leaders of the far-right such as Avigdor Lieberman have been calling for loyalty pledges and transfer policies to undermine the rights of Palestinian citizens. The controversial nation-state law of 2018 chipped away further at those rights. The stage has already been set for a renewed assault on citizenship.

Racist laws
Lethal attacks carried out by members of Israel’s Palestinian minority, like the two that occurred in quick succession, are rare. They are invariably carried out by what Israel terms “lone wolves”, deeply disillusioned and alienated individuals, rather than organised by Palestinian movements inside Israel.

The Palestinian minority has preferred to deal with the systematic discrimination and oppression of living as a non-Jewish population in a self-declared Jewish state using the limited legal and political tools at its disposal.

Dozens of explicitly racist laws have been challenged in the courts, even if with minimal success. The minority has increasingly lobbied the international community for help, calls that have embarrassed Israel.

Over the past year, more and more human rights and legal groups have come forward declaring that Israel is an apartheid state, both in the occupied territories and inside Israel itself. The structural discrimination exposed by the Palestinian minority has played a crucial part in helping these organisations reach such a severe conclusion.

Leaders like Bennett, therefore, have every reason to try to exaggerate the significance posed by these attacks, suggesting as he did this week that they are part of a new "terror wave". He has vowed to expand the scope of draconian administration detention orders - imprisonment without charge or evidence made public - to deal with this supposed wave.

Making the case more plausible for him, the three Palestinian citizens involved in the two attacks - in Beersheba and Hadera - had loose affiliations with the Islamic State (IS) group.

Grain of salt
But in reality, while the three perpetrators appear to have had ideological sympathy with IS - one even tried unsuccessfully to reach a training camp in Syria in 2016 - the group has no meaningful presence in the Palestinian population, either in the occupied territories or in Israel.

Identification with IS among a tiny section of the Palestinian public peaked five years ago, when the group looked like it might be offering a successful model for unseating the region’s corrupt and sclerotic Arab tyrants. IS’s failures and its brutality soon eroded even that small pool of support.

Assessments are that, despite its intensive spying and surveillance of Palestinians on social media, Israel has been able to identify only a few dozen IS supporters, who are in its prisons. Even in those cases, most have been detained because of ideological sympathy with the group, not because of tangible ties.

And in any case, IS has never expressed any pressing interest in attacks on Israel. A statement in 2016 made clear that the group prioritised struggle against Muslim governments that had, in its view, broken with the central tenets of Islam.

Islamist Palestinian factions are committed to liberating the Palestinian homeland, not trying to reinvent a mythic golden era of unified Islamic rule across the Middle East

By contrast, Islamist Palestinian factions are committed to liberating the Palestinian homeland, not trying to reinvent a mythic golden era of unified Islamic rule across the Middle East. They are Palestinian national liberation movements, not jihadists.

For that reason alone, the claim by IS of responsibility for the two attacks needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. The group has an incentive to suggest involvement in the attacks because they coincided with the arrival in Israel last week of leaders of four Arab states - Egypt, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates and Morocco - for a summit.

These Arab states - and others waiting in the wings - wish to make Israel the linchpin of a new shared regional security and intelligence pact designed to prevent threats to their rule, including a revival of the Arab Spring.

For IS supporters, the move is yet another humiliation, and proof of the illegitimacy of the region’s Arab autocracies.

Double whammy
These attacks were carried out by lone wolves - and in one case, a pair of lone wolves - who have become increasingly desperate, angry and vengeful after decades of Israel’s oppression of Palestinians, and the complicity and betrayal by western and Arab governments.

The attackers’ surge of rage coincided with one part of the agenda of IS. But in their case, the roots penetrate much deeper.


The Palestinian perpetrators from Israel did not need indoctrination by the foreign leadership of IS to carry out their attacks. They had plenty of homegrown reasons to want to strike out - no different from the “lone-wolf” Palestinian from the West Bank who carried out a third attack near Tel Aviv but had no ties to IS.

Decades of brutal military rule in the occupied territories and systematic discrimination and oppression inside Israel were the real causes.

One cannot overlook either the double whammy from Israel against the more devout section of Israel’s Palestinian minority.

First, the best organised and most politically astute religious party in Israel, the Northern Islamic Movement under Sheikh Raed Salah, was outlawed in 2015. Israeli critics, even within the security establishment, warned at the time that the move would drive some Islamic protest underground and encourage greater extremism.

And second, the rival Southern Islamic Movement, under Mansour Abbas, threw its hand in with Bennett last summer to oust Netanyahu from power. Abbas’s party became the first to join an Israeli government, in return for a few crumbs from the far right.

Both developments have left devout Muslims who oppose Israel’s occupation and the crushing of Palestinian rights with no serious, legitimate channel for protest. They have been disempowered and humiliated - ready conditions to provoke a fringe into staging violent attacks of the kind seen in the past few days.

And to add insult to injury, Abbas’ party is supporting a government that this week allowed a virulently anti-Palestinian legislator, Itamar Ben Gvir, to tour the sacred Muslim holy site of al-Aqsa in Jerusalem under heavily armed protection. Ben Gvir wants the mosque plaza under Jewish sovereignty.

Wrong lesson
There is a lesson here that Israel willfully ignores, just as the western states who serve as its patron do too.

The West’s unlimited support for Israel, and the Arab autocracies that are now openly cosying up to Israel, has a cost

If you treat populations with structural violence, if you strip them of rights, if you demean and humiliate them, and if you deny them a voice in their future, you cannot be surprised - even less maintain a self-righteousness - when some lash out with their own forms of violence against you.

The wrong, self-serving lesson Israel will learn - as it has for decades - is that the correct response must be greater violence, greater humiliation, and an intensified demand for submission. The oppression will continue, as will the resistance.

The West’s unlimited support for Israel, and the Arab autocracies that are now openly cosying up to Israel, has a cost. Dismissing it as simply the savagery of IS may offer reassurance. But it will not stop the pressure from building - or the explosion to come.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israel-stoking-civil-war-against-palestinian-citizens
 
Ramallah, occupied West Bank – Israel’s State Prosecutor has closed the case of an Israeli settler who stabbed a Palestinian man to death in June in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

The prosecution informed the family on Thursday that the investigation into the unnamed settler was closed “on the basis that the attack was a case of self-defence”, the youth’s uncle told Al Jazeera.

Ali Hassan Harb, 27, was stabbed in the chest and killed on June 21 by an Israeli settler while on the Harb family’s land in the town of Iskaka on the outskirts of Salfit city, near the illegal Jewish settlement of Ariel, according to rights groups and Harb’s family.

He had gone down to the land along with other family members after a group of settlers arrived to set up an outpost.

Naeem Harb, the main witness to the attack and the youth’s uncle, said the family intends to keep pushing for accountability despite the closure of the investigation.

“Even if the court decided to close the case, we will go to the Supreme Court, and then we will go to the International Criminal Court (ICC),” said Naeem. “We will keep going until the last sliver of hope, until the last breath, until this killer and this government are punished – we will not leave them alone.”

The State Prosecutor released a statement on Thursday saying, “after reviewing evidence in the case, including statements from those involved in the incident … the decision was made to close the case since the claim of self-defence could not be ruled out,” according to Israeli media.

Lack of accountability

Soon after the killing, Naeem had said that the attack happened in the presence of the Israeli army.

He told Al Jazeera he was approximately a metre away from his nephew when he was stabbed.

“The settlers came to our land and the killing happened in front of the army’s eyes and under their protection,” said Naeem. “The settlers were not exposed to any danger. We went to the land and told them to leave, and they left, and then came back with the army and killed the martyr, Ali.”

“After the settler stabbed him, the soldiers prevented us from advancing to him or giving him any help. He was on the ground for 20 minutes, bleeding out,” added Naeem.

Documentation by rights group Yesh Din, which monitors settler attacks in the occupied West Bank, showed a similar sequence of events.

“Settlers arrived at the scene and attempted to set up a tent. Friction ensued and settlers left the place. Immediately afterward, soldiers arrived at the scene, and later the settlers returned,” Yesh Din said in a statement.

After the settlers returned, violence again broke out, “during which a settler pulled out a knife and stabbed the young man to death”, the organisation said.

Settler violence and attacks are a daily reality for Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, where at least 600,000 Israeli settlers live in approximately 250 illegal settlements, according to rights groups.

The vast majority of investigations into attacks are closed without any punishment for the settlers.

According to Yesh Din, since 2005, 92 percent of cases were closed at the end of an investigation without an indictment filed.

Only three percent of files have led to convictions in the same period.

Murad Samara, a social and political activist in Salfit, a governorate in the northern West Bank highly affected by settler attacks, said the closure of the investigation is part of longstanding Israeli policy.

“Ali Harb’s killing is not the first. We hope it’s the last, but in light of Israel’s organised policies, whoever is in government, to protect the settlers and the Israeli forces – that if they carry out crimes against Palestinians, they are not held accountable.” Samara told Al Jazeera.

“There is no justice in Israel’s justice system,” Samara added. “Our people and our political leaders must search for alternatives in order to seize our rights and to hold settlers, and soldiers, and officers of the occupation accountable in international courts.”

As for Naeem, he says that his family have little faith in the Israeli justice system.

“This is an occupation government. They give impunity to the settlers and to the army to kill Palestinians as they wish,” he said. “We do not bet on their government, or their justice.”

Al Jazeera
 
West will let their own elderly and people go cold, hungry and suffer economically for Ukraine, when Russia is defending its national security.

Yet Israel a Jewish extremist state which allows any Jew from anywhere(never been to holy land) to settle in stolen land including many Ukranian Jews.

When push comes to shove the Zionists answer is well 'Change the Bible'. If Jews can justify land theft, occupation ,murder because of their holy book ,supported by the so called Liberal West, then they shouldnt be criticising Russia or any group they call terrorists.
 
West will let their own elderly and people go cold, hungry and suffer economically for Ukraine, when Russia is defending its national security.

Yet Israel a Jewish extremist state which allows any Jew from anywhere(never been to holy land) to settle in stolen land including many Ukranian Jews.

When push comes to shove the Zionists answer is well 'Change the Bible'. If Jews can justify land theft, occupation ,murder because of their holy book ,supported by the so called Liberal West, then they shouldnt be criticising Russia or any group they call terrorists.

I've never understood this. Because one bad thing is ignored, all bad things must be ignored, because otherwise you're a hypocrite? Surely it's better to do the right thing some of the time rather than none of the time?

Where does it say that in the Bible? Ask whoever these Zionists are for the book, chapter and verse next time, and which geographical areas these verses refer to.

I know some committed Christians who oppose Israel's breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention Section III Article 47, and indeed have gone to the Occupied Territories to try to help the dispossessed Palestinians.
 
I've never understood this. Because one bad thing is ignored, all bad things must be ignored, because otherwise you're a hypocrite? Surely it's better to do the right thing some of the time rather than none of the time?

Where does it say that in the Bible? Ask whoever these Zionists are for the book, chapter and verse next time, and which geographical areas these verses refer to.

I know some committed Christians who oppose Israel's breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention Section III Article 47, and indeed have gone to the Occupied Territories to try to help the dispossessed Palestinians.

The point was fairness esp in Western governments and media.

Imagine if Muslims become powerful took over the UK by force, then claimed all UK land is holy land of Muslims. They came to your house, kicked you and your wife out. You wold rightly call them extremists religious nutters but here in the UK anti this policy makes one a racist. UK and west has no credibility .

Here is the interview. If a former Muslim PM said well we do what we like or go change the Quran.

At 8:00 mins.

 
Many of the people weeping crocodile tears in this thread actually support rabidly right-wing western politicians who support the far-right and settler movement in Israel and the West Bank.

Donald Trump claimed to have "given" East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights to Israel, and moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv (which is undisputed Israeli territory awarded to them at partition) to Jerusalem (which is not recognised Israeli territory).

And [MENTION=141306]sweep_shot[/MENTION] has previously expressed his admiration for former Canadian PM Stephen Harper, who was himself far more pro-Israel - and exteme Israeli positions - than mainstream Canadian public opinion.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-is-stephen-harper-one-of-israels-staunchest-supporters/

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you support Trump or Harper, whose positions are far more unconditionally pro-Israel than mainstream politicians in their country, then you can't weep crocodile tears for the Palestinians.
 
Many of the people weeping crocodile tears in this thread actually support rabidly right-wing western politicians who support the far-right and settler movement in Israel and the West Bank.

Donald Trump claimed to have "given" East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights to Israel, and moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv (which is undisputed Israeli territory awarded to them at partition) to Jerusalem (which is not recognised Israeli territory).

And [MENTION=141306]sweep_shot[/MENTION] has previously expressed his admiration for former Canadian PM Stephen Harper, who was himself far more pro-Israel - and exteme Israeli positions - than mainstream Canadian public opinion.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-is-stephen-harper-one-of-israels-staunchest-supporters/

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you support Trump or Harper, whose positions are far more unconditionally pro-Israel than mainstream politicians in their country, then you can't weep crocodile tears for the Palestinians.

Liberals support Israel too. All politicians support Israel.

I didn't support Harper. I said Canada was better under Harper and it really was. Competent conservative leadership tends to be better than liberal leadership.
 
Many of the people weeping crocodile tears in this thread actually support rabidly right-wing western politicians who support the far-right and settler movement in Israel and the West Bank.

Donald Trump claimed to have "given" East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights to Israel, and moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv (which is undisputed Israeli territory awarded to them at partition) to Jerusalem (which is not recognised Israeli territory).

And [MENTION=141306]sweep_shot[/MENTION] has previously expressed his admiration for former Canadian PM Stephen Harper, who was himself far more pro-Israel - and exteme Israeli positions - than mainstream Canadian public opinion.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-is-stephen-harper-one-of-israels-staunchest-supporters/

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you support Trump or Harper, whose positions are far more unconditionally pro-Israel than mainstream politicians in their country, then you can't weep crocodile tears for the Palestinians.


Stick to the topic.

You are the ONLY fanatic Israel supporter so please lets have some answers.

Do you believe the Bible is enough for any Jews who has no historic ties to the holy land can come live on the land?

If I came to your house, told you my holy book says the land your house is on is mine, I then kick you out with your family. You would accept this and walk off to a refugee.

I look forward to frank and to the point discussion. Be brave.
 
Liberals support Israel too. All politicians support Israel.

I didn't support Harper. I said Canada was better under Harper and it really was. Competent conservative leadership tends to be better than liberal leadership.

Actually you are completely wrong.

The right-wing side of western politics
- generally makes no distinction between Israel and the Occupied Territories.
- accept Jerusalem as the capital of Israel even though the UN Partition Plan did not give it to Israel or the Arabs.
- generally is much more likely to include devout Christians, who have biblical reasons for wanting Israel to occupy all of Palestine as far as the Jordan River, and especially Bethlehem in the West Bank.
- generally assumes that all Palestinians are Muslims, and ignores their own experiences with Palestinian Christians in places like Bethlehem.
- blames the Arabs for the failure of peace negotiations.
- is more US-influenced, so tends to be ignorant of/dismissive of the UN Partition Plan by which Palestine was to be divided into Arab and Jewish states.
- considers the BDS divestment movement against the Occupied Territories to be "anti-Israel".
- tacitly accepts a One-State solution, in which only Israeli citizens have a vote, so Jews in the West Bank have a vote but Arabs in the West Bank do not.

"Liberals" in western nations
- universally support the two-state solution endorsed by the United Nations in 1948, with a nation state of Israel and a nation state of Palestine.
- do not accept Israeli sovereignty over Gaza, the West Bank or East Jerusalem, and consider Tel Aviv to be the capital of Israel, not Jerusalem.
- consider Israel to have previously been a tolerant western democracy, which has become a Trump / Orban / Putin style far-right nationalist country, to their disappointment.
- blame both the Arabs and the Jews for failing to achieve a negotiated settlement.
- do not consider the West Bank and Gaza to be part of Israel and oppose Jewish settlement there.
- recognise that Palestinians are different to other Arabs because they have always included a large Christian component as well as a Muslim component.
- are as revolted by Hamas as a misogynistic, bigoted bunch of thugs as they are by their equivalent Israeli Kahanists.

So you cannot equate the left and right in their response to Israel.

The problem is that you don't recognise Israel's right to exist at all. So to you, there is no difference between a two state solution and an Israel Occupying Everything situation. And you think I'm a fanatical Israel supporter when I obviously am not - I just want the Two State Solution to be implemented.
 
Actually you are completely wrong.

The right-wing side of western politics
- generally makes no distinction between Israel and the Occupied Territories.
- accept Jerusalem as the capital of Israel even though the UN Partition Plan did not give it to Israel or the Arabs.
- generally is much more likely to include devout Christians, who have biblical reasons for wanting Israel to occupy all of Palestine as far as the Jordan River, and especially Bethlehem in the West Bank.
- generally assumes that all Palestinians are Muslims, and ignores their own experiences with Palestinian Christians in places like Bethlehem.
- blames the Arabs for the failure of peace negotiations.
- is more US-influenced, so tends to be ignorant of/dismissive of the UN Partition Plan by which Palestine was to be divided into Arab and Jewish states.
- considers the BDS divestment movement against the Occupied Territories to be "anti-Israel".
- tacitly accepts a One-State solution, in which only Israeli citizens have a vote, so Jews in the West Bank have a vote but Arabs in the West Bank do not.

"Liberals" in western nations
- universally support the two-state solution endorsed by the United Nations in 1948, with a nation state of Israel and a nation state of Palestine.
- do not accept Israeli sovereignty over Gaza, the West Bank or East Jerusalem, and consider Tel Aviv to be the capital of Israel, not Jerusalem.
- consider Israel to have previously been a tolerant western democracy, which has become a Trump / Orban / Putin style far-right nationalist country, to their disappointment.
- blame both the Arabs and the Jews for failing to achieve a negotiated settlement.
- do not consider the West Bank and Gaza to be part of Israel and oppose Jewish settlement there.
- recognise that Palestinians are different to other Arabs because they have always included a large Christian component as well as a Muslim component.
- are as revolted by Hamas as a misogynistic, bigoted bunch of thugs as they are by their equivalent Israeli Kahanists.

So you cannot equate the left and right in their response to Israel.

The problem is that you don't recognise Israel's right to exist at all. So to you, there is no difference between a two state solution and an Israel Occupying Everything situation. And you think I'm a fanatical Israel supporter when I obviously am not - I just want the Two State Solution to be implemented.

I am neither right nor left.

When I said Harper did good, I meant economy and tackling crimes. Crimes were lower and economy was good. As a citizen of Canada, those things directly affect me and Harper did better than Trudeau. I also don't like the fact Trudeau goes nuts with gender equality and LGBTQ issues.

Regarding Israel, I don't consider it to be a legitimate state. It is an illegal state. It is a terrorist state. You should be ashamed for supporting it.
 
All politicians support Israel.
.
Like [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] you can't see the difference between the western right's support for Israel to obliterate the Palestinians and the support of western liberals for Israel and Palestine to co-exist as neighbours.

The right says that Israel is entitled to occupy the nation state of Palestine (West Bank plus Gaza plus East Jerusalem) and not give Arabs in those places a vote.

Liberals oppose Jewish settlement outside Israel Proper - meaning that the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem should be the nation of Palestine.

But to you because both support Israel's right to exist, you can't see a difference.

Let me put it in subcontinental terms.

The right's position on Israel is like saying "India should be independent All India, with Pakistan and Bangladesh occupied by India, and only Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh having the right to vote".

The left's position on Israel is like saying "No, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan are separate nations. If a Hindu from elsewhere wants to live in Pakistan he can apply for residence and ultimately Pakistani citizenship."
 
Regarding Israel, I don't consider it to be a legitimate state. It is an illegal state. It is a terrorist state. You should be ashamed for supporting it.

An illegal state?

The UN voted for the Partition Plan on 29 November 1947.

So Israel's right to exist is no more and no less than Pakistan's right to exist. It is identical to Pakistan's right to exist.

You may not like it, but that is what UN Resolution 181 is.

It is just a misuse of words to say that Israel is "an illegal state". It's legitimacy as a nation is the same as Pakistan's.

I acknowledge that there are aspects of Israel's behaviour which I do not like. Unfortunately, the behaviour of every single Arab nation is even worse.

What is ironic is that Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are the best of friends. Currently GPS isn't working across northern Israel because they are jointly blocking Russian drones from Syria!
 
Like @<a href="http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/member.php?u=43583" target="_blank">KingKhanWC</a> you can't see the difference between the western right's support for Israel to obliterate the Palestinians and the support of western liberals for Israel and Palestine to co-exist as neighbours.

The right says that Israel is entitled to occupy the nation state of Palestine (West Bank plus Gaza plus East Jerusalem) and not give Arabs in those places a vote.

Liberals oppose Jewish settlement outside Israel Proper - meaning that the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem should be the nation of Palestine.

But to you because both support Israel's right to exist, you can't see a difference.

Let me put it in subcontinental terms.

The right's position on Israel is like saying "India should be independent All India, with Pakistan and Bangladesh occupied by India, and only Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh having the right to vote".

The left's position on Israel is like saying "No, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan are separate nations. If a Hindu from elsewhere wants to live in Pakistan he can apply for residence and ultimately Pakistani citizenship."

Wrong analogy.

Israel was never a state. These are European Jews who went to Palestine and took over their lands.

Guess what? There are Jews who actually oppose state of Israel. Check this:

 
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Wrong analogy.

Israel was never a state. These are European Jews who went to Palestine and took over their lands.

Guess what? There are Jews who actually oppose state of Israel. Check this:

Everybody knows that there are ultra-Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel for biblical reasons. That doesn't affect the argument as to the legality or otherwise of the nation.

Jews moved to Palestine and then Israel before and after 1948 just as Muslims from India moved to Pakistan. That's how partition worked.

I don't like partition but that's what the UN voted for.

It doesn't become less legal because people moved to the partitioned state. It doesn't become less legal because not all Jews support it.

It's legal because it was the implementation of a UN resolution.

But trying to argue against Israel's legitimacy also erases Pakistan's right to exist. No Israel, no Pakistan.
 
Jews moved to Palestine and then Israel before and after 1948 just as Muslims from India moved to Pakistan. That's how partition worked.

I don't like partition but that's what the UN voted for.

It doesn't become less legal because people moved to the partitioned state. It doesn't become less legal because not all Jews support it.

It's legal because it was the implementation of a UN resolution.

But trying to argue against Israel's legitimacy also erases Pakistan's right to exist. No Israel, no Pakistan.

This is a wrong comparison.

Pakistanis were already natives to the land. Israelis weren't; they were mostly Ashkenazi Jews (European Jews). They took over lands from the native Palestinians.
 
There's no point in debating Isreal with Atheists who believe in the divine word of God. (The promised land by God).

These people need to get their house and beliefs in order first.
 
This is a wrong comparison.

Pakistanis were already natives to the land. Israelis weren't; they were mostly Ashkenazi Jews (European Jews). They took over lands from the native Palestinians.
That’s actually completely untrue.

At partition there were more Hindus than Muslims in Karachi. Only 42% of the population was Muslim.

Only 61% of the population of Lahore was Muslim.

And the most widely spoken language by far in Pakistan in the first quarter of a century of Pakistan’s existence was Bengali. Even Jinnah couldn’t speak Urdu. It’s outrageous that Urdu and not Bengali is the national language of Pakistan!

Pakistan is exactly the same as Israel. It got given to a group of people because of their religion, and a huge chunk of the people already living there got kicked out.

And, just like Israel, a language that only a small minority of the population spoke (Urdu, just like Hebrew amongst Israelis in 1948) was made into an official language to create a national culture which most certainly was not the culture of Karachi or Lahore before 1947.

Pakistan is every bit as artificial a country as Israel. Both created by partition, both owe their current ethnic and religious composition to ethnic cleansing in 1947 and 1948, and both use a language that the residents of that area didn’t even speak before partition and independence.

Israel and Pakistan are remarkably similar, if you think about it.
 
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This is a wrong comparison.

Pakistanis were already natives to the land. Israelis weren't; they were mostly Ashkenazi Jews (European Jews). They took over lands from the native Palestinians.

So that is your argument against the legitimacy of Israel? That in 1948 people from outside (Jews) came and replaced an ethnically cleansed Palestinian population at the time of Partition?

Consider these religious demographic figures:

Karachi 1941: Muslim 42.3%, Hindu 51.1%
Karachi 1951: Muslim 96.1%, Hindu 1.7%.

It strikes me that what happened to the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis at the time of Partition was exactly the same as what happened to Hindus in Pakistan and Muslims in India.

There is no difference.

As for the language issue, it's actually worse in Pakistan. Even now, only 7.6% of Pakistanis have it as their mother tongue.

In 1947, at independence, 3% of Pakistanis spoke Urdu, 20% spoke Punjabi and 56% spoke Bengali.

Yet somehow this country of Pakistan has been created which does not question its existence or its identity, even with its concocted and fake "national language" which is actually no such thing.

And the arguments that you use to de-legitimise the existence of Israel are equally valid to de-legitimise the existence of Pakistan.

You can't have it both ways.
 
The point was fairness esp in Western governments and media.

Imagine if Muslims become powerful took over the UK by force, then claimed all UK land is holy land of Muslims. They came to your house, kicked you and your wife out. You wold rightly call them extremists religious nutters but here in the UK anti this policy makes one a racist. UK and west has no credibility .

Here is the interview. If a former Muslim PM said well we do what we like or go change the Quran.

I would pick up my crowbar and defend my house from the bulldozer men. Then troops would come and shoot me, and the bulldozer men would flatten my house.

Criticism of the State of Israel’s unlawful actions in the Occupied Territories does not make you or I antisemitic. However it is very easy to fall into that trap so I suggest precise use of language to avoid generalisations and distortions of the truth.


At 8:00 mins.


Ok, same question for that Minister - which specific Bible verse authorises dispossession of Palestinians? Luke 10 25-37 (aka Parable of the Good Samaritan) says treat people from other lands well.
 
Like [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] you can't see the difference between the western right's support for Israel to obliterate the Palestinians and the support of western liberals for Israel and Palestine to co-exist as neighbours.

Yep. Though even right-winger Bush 43 had his roadmap to peace, seeking a two-state solution.
 
An illegal state?

The UN voted for the Partition Plan on 29 November 1947.

So Israel's right to exist is no more and no less than Pakistan's right to exist. It is identical to Pakistan's right to exist.

You may not like it, but that is what UN Resolution 181 is.

True but Israel has expanded far beyond the UN Resolution borders.
 
Like [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] you can't see the difference between the western right's support for Israel to obliterate the Palestinians and the support of western liberals for Israel and Palestine to co-exist as neighbours.

The right says that Israel is entitled to occupy the nation state of Palestine (West Bank plus Gaza plus East Jerusalem) and not give Arabs in those places a vote.

Liberals oppose Jewish settlement outside Israel Proper - meaning that the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem should be the nation of Palestine.

But to you because both support Israel's right to exist, you can't see a difference.

Let me put it in subcontinental terms.

The right's position on Israel is like saying "India should be independent All India, with Pakistan and Bangladesh occupied by India, and only Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh having the right to vote".

The left's position on Israel is like saying "No, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan are separate nations. If a Hindu from elsewhere wants to live in Pakistan he can apply for residence and ultimately Pakistani citizenship."

You havent replied to my post.

Lets leave the Right or Left. Im interested in your personal position on this.

Do you accept a holy book allows a people to take others land because their book says so? Yes or No will do.
 
I would pick up my crowbar and defend my house from the bulldozer men. Then troops would come and shoot me, and the bulldozer men would flatten my house.

Criticism of the State of Israel’s unlawful actions in the Occupied Territories does not make you or I antisemitic. However it is very easy to fall into that trap so I suggest precise use of language to avoid generalisations and distortions of the truth.




Ok, same question for that Minister - which specific Bible verse authorises dispossession of Palestinians? Luke 10 25-37 (aka Parable of the Good Samaritan) says treat people from other lands well.

Many have stood up and paid with their lives. Others dont have a choice to leave their family behind.

You believe in the right of self defence. You would be branded a terrorist btw.

The truth is according to Jewish law they shouldnt be in the holy land, as they are in exile until the Messiah returns and the Temple is built, I cant see either.

I will always criticise Zionism. Its not my problem if some people who lack understanding confuse this with anti-Jewish. Btw Arabs are the actual Semites.
 
You havent replied to my post.

Lets leave the Right or Left. Im interested in your personal position on this.

Do you accept a holy book allows a people to take others land because their book says so? Yes or No will do.

Atheists cannot and will not address the point of the Torah as they do not believe in God, yet the Torah underpins the very existence of Isreal and is the motive for Zionism.

Check mate.
 
The truth is according to Jewish law they shouldnt be in the holy land, as they are in exile until the Messiah returns and the Temple is built, I cant see either.

This is true.

State of Israel actually goes against Judaism. Here's what anti-Zionist Rabbi Moshe Ber Beck has to say, "The basic belief of the Jewish religion is to trust God. If God sends you in exile, stay in exile. We have to wait for the coming of the messiah."

State of Israel breaks two commandments of the ten commandments (as per Rabbi Beck):

Commandment #6: Do not kill.
Commandment #8: Do not steal.
 
This is true.

State of Israel actually goes against Judaism. Here's what anti-Zionist Rabbi Moshe Ber Beck has to say, "The basic belief of the Jewish religion is to trust God. If God sends you in exile, stay in exile. We have to wait for the coming of the messiah."

State of Israel breaks two commandments of the ten commandments (as per Rabbi Beck):

Commandment #6: Do not kill.
Commandment #8: Do not steal.

There is nothing religious about the entity known as Israel. It makes Satanism seem caring.
 
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