Pakistan’s secret atheists

[santos11]

Being an atheist in Pakistan can be life-threatening. But behind closed doors, non-believers are getting together to support one another. How do they survive in a nation where blasphemy carries a death sentence?
Omar, named after one of Islam's most revered caliphs, has rejected the faith of his forefathers. He is one of the founding members of an online group - a meeting point for the atheists of Pakistan.

But even there he must stay on his guard. Members use fake identities.

"You have to be careful who you are befriending," he says.
One man contacted Omar to say he had visited his Facebook profile and printed out pictures of him with his family. "You cannot be safe," Omar says.

In Pakistan, posting about atheism online can have serious consequences.

Under a recently passed cyber-crime law, it is now illegal to post content online - even in a private forum - that could be deemed blasphemous.

The government took out adverts in national newspapers asking members of the public to report any content they believe could constitute blasphemy.

And the law is being enforced. In June this year, in the first case of its kind, Taimoor Raza was sentenced to death for posting blasphemous content on Facebook.

A Pakistani atheist's diary

"Zahir" is an online activist who uses social media to express atheist ideas and comment on Pakistani politics
"Dear diary, I've been through four Twitter accounts in one year now. The last one got blocked last night. It doesn't matter how vague my details are or if the pictures I use are generic. It's as if someone is watching me. Every time this happens I feel that I should just give up. They want to silence me."

As a result, atheists feel their ability to publicly question the existence of God is threatened.

Omar believes the government is at war with atheist bloggers. "A good friend of mine used to write against religious fundamentalism," he says.

"We used to run the [online] group together. I came to know he was very severely tortured. Once you are abducted, there is a high chance your body will come in a bag.

"The state is doing it deliberately, so those remaining get a sign that if you go beyond your limits you will also be facing things like this."

This year, six activists have reportedly been abducted after posting on forums that are pro-atheist and anti-government. One of those activists spoke to the BBC but does not want to be identified. He believes that Pakistan's intelligence service wants to stamp out not only criticism of Islam but also criticism of the state.

In his view, the government is trying to enforce the notion that a good citizen must be a good Muslim.

"There are two holy cows in Pakistan," he says. "One is the army, the other is Islam. Any person challenging one of these holy cows would, more often than not, be talking about the other as well. The sites whose administrators were abducted were critical of the army and government policy, so blasphemy became a convenient tool.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40580196

Still a long before Atheists in Pakistan can dare to come out in public, but they do seem to have healthy presence.

 

[Mian]

There are many famous celebrities, personalities and politicians that are atheist in Pak and its a well known fact.

 

[Enigma_]

They need to raise their voices a bit more.

 

[Asim_khan]

It's a shame. Nobody should be afraid to voice their view point.

Especially if they're Pakistani followers of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. Such people should be given a platform so I can personally watch them try to defend their racist heroes.

 

[hafeezrocks]

Atheists are cowards, too scared to come out to justify their viewpoint and hence glorify each others movement online in anonymity.

 

[Rafa]

Another Pro Atheist Pro Liberal propaganda article by the Western Media where so called innocent atheists are being butchered left, right, center by the Islamist's in Pakistan.

 

[Mian]

It's a shame. Nobody should be afraid to voice their view point.

Especially if they're Pakistani followers of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. Such people should be given a platform so I can personally watch them try to defend their racist heroes.

Atheists are the biggest hypocrites they criticize your views religion faith and religious figures 24/7 they make fun of them and discuss it all the time but than they talk about giving space to others and do chest thumping as the one standing in the way of extremism.

 

[Heisenberg]

Atheists are cowards, too scared to come out to justify their viewpoint and hence glorify each others movement online in anonymity.

Cowards for protecting their lives? Think that's called intelligence because what is it worth?

 

[Enigma_]

This thread is an example as to why they are afraid of sharing their views. It is hard enough with the social prejudice that exists let alone a state advocating violence against anyone that doesn't follow the teachings of Islam. Tolerance levels in Pakistan are non existent unfortunately.

 

[yasir]

It's a shame. Nobody should be afraid to voice their view point.

Especially if they're Pakistani followers of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. Such people should be given a platform so I can personally watch them try to defend their racist heroes.

What is racist about Sam and Richard??

 

[DW44]

There are many famous celebrities, personalities and politicians that are atheist in Pak and its a well known fact.

No it isn't. Not a single public figure would admit to being an atheist openly and no one who falls under any of the categories you listed ever has. Atheists in Pakistan have enough to worry about without putting a bulls eye on themselves for religious nutjobs, of which you'll find six under every rock, and the extremist state to go after. This is a common refrain from the right that there are many well known public figures in Pakistan who are atheists but what they conveniently neglect to mention is that not a single public figure would dare come out as one openly and all this rhetoric about famous atheists is simply speculation based on how overtly religious their public persona is. There are a grand total of two public figures who're active in underground atheist circles, a well known critic of the government and army that KKWC hates because of her supposed promotion of Hindu attire and one musician who's not really mainstream but well known to those involved in the music scene.

 

[yasir]

Another Pro Atheist Pro Liberal propaganda article by the Western Media where so called innocent atheists are being butchered left, right, center by the Islamist's in Pakistan.

And this is good, because??

 

[DW44]

Another Pro Atheist Pro Liberal propaganda article by the Western Media where so called innocent atheists are being butchered left, right, center by the Islamist's in Pakistan.

Only reason they're not being butchered is because they've gone to great lengths to protect their identities. There's very little question over the levels of Islamism in Pakistani society or the capacity of Pakistani Islamists for butchery, not to mention the Pakistani state's crusade against atheism, secularism and blasphemy. Just ask Mashal Khan, the Christian couple burnt alive in a brick kiln or the residents of Joseph Colony.

 

[Rafa]

Atheists are the biggest hypocrites they criticize your views religion faith and religious figures 24/7 they make fun of them and discuss it all the time but than they talk about giving space to others and do chest thumping as the one standing in the way of extremism.

Agree, have always found them more obsessed with Religion than vice versa. Simple can't ever stop whining as if the whole world is ought to get them. They feel they are too special and entitled for special treatment.

 

[Enigma_]

Atheists are the hypocrites? I've heard everything now. Religious nutters will go to any extreme to protect their worldview.

 

[DW44]

Atheists are the biggest hypocrites they criticize your views religion faith and religious figures 24/7 they make fun of them and discuss it all the time but than they talk about giving space to others and do chest thumping as the one standing in the way of extremism.

As opposed to Pakistani Muslims who criticize other people's religion(or lack thereoff), call them hypocrites, make fun of them or denounce them outright but as soon as the roles are reversed, the pitchfork and torch wielding mobs are out in full force, lynching whoever they get their hands on and later on claiming that we're a peaceful nation that follows the religion of peace?

 

[Badsha]

I can't speak for the rural areas of Pakistan but in Islamabad and Lahore there are plenty of open atheists and it's never been a big deal.

So many of my personal friends were openly atheist and they were never ever threatened. Like I said, in big cities it's a non issue.

 

[DW44]

Let's also not forget the massive public support for the abduction and torture of liberal bloggers, including from many right here, once the blasphemy allegations were leveled, before calling people hypocrites.

 

[Enigma_]

Let's also not forget the massive public support for the abduction and torture of liberal bloggers, including from many right here, once the blasphemy allegations were leveled, before calling people hypocrites.

Get rid of the madrassahs and mullahs and a lot of these problems would be solved. They are a factory of producing extremists.

 

[czar]

If an online discussion leads to such hostile reactions then what will happen if Atheists unmask themselves in Pakistan and go mainstream?

 

[Badsha]

Atheists are the hypocrites? I've heard everything now. Religious nutters will go to any extreme to protect their worldview.

Similarly, some Atheists will react the same way to protect their worldview.

There are religious people that think their belief makes them superior to everyone else and most of us find them extremists.

However like 90 percent of the atheists I've met think they are smarter and more intelligent that's anyone that's religious. That's where the label of hypocrisy comes from.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The problem for atheists is that Pakistan is a self styled Islamic country. Remove the Islamic shariah ideology and then atheists can flourish openly in Pakistan. There are plenty of atheists in Pakistan whose views are pretty obvious, but they can't openly declare 'I am an atheist'. Instead they'll just mock the mullahs and the Islamic society in general terms which is just about tolerated.

 

[DW44]

I can't speak for the rural areas of Pakistan but in Islamabad and Lahore there are plenty of open atheists and it's never been a big deal.

So many of my personal friends were openly atheist and they were never ever threatened. Like I said, in big cities it's a non issue.

No there aren't. Just because you know someone who admitted being an atheist to you and other friends is absolutely not indicative of a wider trend. It's just as much an issue in big cities in Pakistan, where the people are arguably more extremist than those in smaller towns and rural areas, as it is anywhere else in the country. You're either completely unaware of the situation on the ground, which is not surprising considering how hush-hush the atheist community is, or you lie.

 

[Belawal2014]

There are many famous celebrities, personalities and politicians that are atheist in Pak and its a well known fact.

Like? and do you have any concrete source for your claims?

 

[Proactive_]

Atheists are cowards, too scared to come out to justify their viewpoint and hence glorify each others movement online in anonymity.

Yes absolutely, real courage is being apprehended and sentenced to death by a court of law for openly posting even a sentence doubting the existence of God. What a bunch of cowards these atheists are!

 

[Badsha]

No it isn't. Not a single public figure would admit to being an atheist openly and no one who falls under any of the categories you listed ever has. Atheists in Pakistan have enough to worry about without putting a bulls eye on themselves for religious nutjobs, of which you'll find six under every rock, and the extremist state to go after. This is a common refrain from the right that there are many well known public figures in Pakistan who are atheists but what they conveniently neglect to mention is that not a single public figure would dare come out as one openly and all this rhetoric about famous atheists is simply speculation based on how overtly religious their public persona is. There are a grand total of two public figures who're active in underground atheist circles, a well known critic of the government and army that KKWC hates because of her supposed promotion of Hindu attire and one musician who's not really mainstream but well known to those involved in the music scene.

At the end of the day what is it you want to achieve? You want proper recognition and right for an atheist society in Pakistan? Well that's gonna take time.

You just want to live as an atheist in Islamabad or Lahore? No one cares about that and you can do it peacefully. I've personally no known anyone who had an issue with being an atheist. Most were pretty chill about it and no one cared at all.

 

[yasir]

Atheists are cowards, too scared to come out to justify their viewpoint and hence glorify each others movement online in anonymity.

I don't think they have too, Science is doing it for them. As society gets scientifically literate (which is kind of necessity going forward), their purpose is get solved...Rise of Atheism in millennials is very high, pretty much all over the world. Extremist and religious conservatives can only resort to violence, intellectually its like minnow bashing for us. There is not even a competition. The more you send your kids to learn Science, the better it will be for future generation and they will get rid of superstition and supernatural from the lives. Ratification only goes so far, at some point conservatives have to study Science (atleast their kids have to)...

When I talk to my friends kids, I can see a clear change of thought process...Science is best Revenge

 

[Enigma_]

Similarly, some Atheists will react the same way to protect their worldview.

There are religious people that think their belief makes them superior to everyone else and most of us find them extremists.

However like 90 percent of the atheists I've met think they are smarter and more intelligent that's anyone that's religious. That's where the label of hypocrisy comes from.

That's because they are. Anyone that believes in fairy tales is already lowering themselves. To me religious people are not to blame. The source of their closed mindedness is the extremist producing factories that have not been reigned in. I feel sorry for the religious nutters. They will never ever live life like they could have because they've been indoctrinated to a book that is written by 'God' (lol). From my perspective it is like two kids fighting over which bed time story is better but instead grown ups doing it to the extent; where they'd kill one another for it.

 

[Belawal2014]

Atheists are cowards, too scared to come out to justify their viewpoint and hence glorify each others movement online in anonymity.

Pretty ignorant post.

 

[DW44]

Get rid of the madrassahs and mullahs and a lot of these problems would be solved. They are a factory of producing extremists.

Won't change anything. The formal education sector i.e. the regular schools, colleges and universities, are as much factories of extremism as madrasas are. Lets not forget Saad Aziz, Noreen Leghari and the people who lynched Mashal Khan were all university educated or enrolled in universities. Pakistani curriculum, since the 80s, has been geared to promote a certain mindset that manifests itself from time to time with cases like the Mashal Khan lynching.

 

[yasir]

There are many famous celebrities, personalities and politicians that are atheist in Pak and its a well known fact.

And what is wrong with that? - I hope you understand that, its a good sign, somebody is getting educated in 21st century

 

[Badsha]

No there aren't. Just because you know someone who admitted being an atheist to you and other friends is absolutely not indicative of a wider trend. It's just as much an issue in big cities in Pakistan, where the people are arguably more extremist than those in smaller towns and rural areas, as it is anywhere else in the country. You're either completely unaware of the situation on the ground, which is not surprising considering how hush-hush the atheist community is, or you lie.

Okay if you'e just going to label me as a liar thee's no point in arguing with you. Spend like a week or two hanging around LUMS or some of the schools/unis in Pakistan. I have an openly atheist (or agnostic.. not sure tbh) friend on Facebook who lives in Pindi.

If you think I'm lying then there's no point in arguing. Like I said, in rural areas it may be an issue but in Islamabad, Pindi or Lahore literally no one cares. I've lived my whole life in these areas and met plenty of atheists.

 

[Enigma_]

Won't change anything. The formal education sector i.e. the regular schools, colleges and universities, are as much factories of extremism as madrasas are. Lets not forget Saad Aziz, Noreen Leghari and the people who lynched Mashal Khan were all university educated or enrolled in universities. Pakistani curriculum, since the 80s, has been geared to promote a certain mindset that manifests itself from time to time with cases like the Mashal Khan lynching.

I agree. When I visited recently, Islamic studies were compulsory in the curriculum. That to me is unacceptable. Religion should have no place in public education ANYWHERE. It is a mockery of a human's right to freely learn and then make a decision on his/her religion or lack there of. But madrassahs must go first, they're the worst of the lot and are a cancer on Pakistani society.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If an online discussion leads to such hostile reactions then what will happen if Atheists unmask themselves in Pakistan and go mainstream?

You and the OP are Indian so let me give you an analogy you might understand. Remember when a 15 yr old girl questioned why there was such a fuss made about the funeral of Hindutva demagogue Bal Thackeray and was arrested and set off riots in the area?

It's like that, the subcontinent isn't that sophisticated and perceived insults to holy or revered figures tend to erupt into violence too easily.

 

[yasir]

Won't change anything. The formal education sector i.e. the regular schools, colleges and universities, are as much factories of extremism as madrasas are. Lets not forget Saad Aziz, Noreen Leghari and the people who lynched Mashal Khan were all university educated or enrolled in universities. Pakistani curriculum, since the 80s, has been geared to promote a certain mindset that manifests itself from time to time with cases like the Mashal Khan lynching.

I can see just in this thread people want couple of Atheists Lync on streets of Pakistan. And then people complain why Pakistan is considered extremist country by many in west

 

[DW44]

At the end of the day what is it you want to achieve? You want proper recognition and right for an atheist society in Pakistan? Well that's gonna take time.

Equal rights, freedom from persecution, the right to be recognized legally as an ex-Muslim without facing legal action among other things.

You just want to live as an atheist in Islamabad or Lahore? No one cares about that and you can do it peacefully. I've personally no known anyone who had an issue with being an atheist. Most were pretty chill about it and no one cared at all.

Only if you keep your atheism secret. People absolutely do care about it if they know someone to be an atheist. The last time I met someone who was openly atheist, despite being one myself and therefore knowing more atheists than most people, was in 2006 and she left Pakistan for university that year never to return. Your claim that people don't care or are pretty chill despite knowing for a fact that someone is an atheist, we come back to my original point that you're either completely unaware of the situation on the ground or you're massively exaggerating how tolerant Pakistanis are.

 

[Badsha]

That's because they are. Anyone that believes in fairy tales is already lowering themselves. To me religious people are not to blame. The source of their closed mindedness is the extremist producing factories that have not been reigned in. I feel sorry for the religious nutters. They will never ever live life like they could have because they've been indoctrinated to a book that is written by 'God' (lol). From my perspective it is like two kids fighting over which bed time story is better but instead grown ups doing it to the extent; where they'd kill one another for it.

And what is wrong with that? - I hope you understand that, its a good sign, somebody is getting educated in 21st century

Just look at these two posts that prove my point. Criticizes religions for having a "my belief is bigger than yours" mindset but does the same when it comes to their own belief. Hypocrisy.

 

[Enigma_]

Just look at these two posts that prove my point. Criticizes religions for having a "my belief is bigger than yours" mindset but does the same when it comes to their own belief. Hypocrisy.

I am not an Atheist. Also this isn't the point. How does such arrogance lead to violence against a person? They are free to share their views. You can't kill someone over it.

 

[DW44]

I agree. When I visited recently, Islamic studies were compulsory in the curriculum. That to me is unacceptable. Religion should have no place in public education ANYWHERE. It is a mockery of a human's right to freely learn and then make a decision on his/her religion or lack there of. But madrassahs must go first, they're the worst of the lot and are a cancer on Pakistani society.

The fact that Islamic studies is compulsory isn't even what's most outrageous. It's the fact that Islamic dogma finds its way into Urdu, Biology and Physics textbooks (among others), often to teach the exact opposite of science (refer to the KPK board's Biology textbook and it's take on evolution).

 

[Mian]

And what is wrong with that? - I hope you understand that, its a good sign, somebody is getting educated in 21st century

Where in this post of mine i said its wrong? Why you guys are so insecure? The only difference between a religious extremists and an atheist is the use of weapons otherwise you both are extreme in your approach can't follow the ruke of live and let live because you think you guys are too smart and you should bash everyone's views faith and religion.

 

[Enigma_]

The fact that Islamic studies is compulsory isn't even what's most outrageous. It's the fact that Islamic dogma finds its way into Urdu, Biology and Physics textbooks (among others), often to teach the exact opposite of science (refer to the KPK board's Biology textbook and it's take on evolution).

Hmmm I didn't know that. It is definitely a big problem. What can one do though? Decades of disgraceful extremism has changed Pakistan sooooo much.

 

[yasir]

Okay if you'e just going to label me as a liar thee's no point in arguing with you. Spend like a week or two hanging around LUMS or some of the schools/unis in Pakistan. I have an openly atheist (or agnostic.. not sure tbh) friend on Facebook who lives in Pindi.

If you think I'm lying then there's no point in arguing. Like I said, in rural areas it may be an issue but in Islamabad, Pindi or Lahore literally no one cares. I've lived my whole life in these areas and met plenty of atheists.

Its one thing to be openly Atheist among your friends and family. Completely different if somebody is openly Atheist in Public. I can Imagine people in LUMS, Quaid Azam Univ in ISB, but that's limited to those institution and in narrow setting too. There is no news paper, where you can write about Atheism in Pakistan.

 

[Enigma_]

Where in this post of mine i said its wrong? Why you guys are so insecure? The only difference between a religious extremists and an atheist is the use of weapons otherwise you both are extreme in your approach can't follow the ruke of live and let live because you think you guys are too smart and you should bash everyone's views faith and religion.

Turn it up! So bashing other religions = lynching/killing? Complete and utter B/S. If you and your God can't handle criticism then you and your God are the ones that are insecure.

 

[DW44]

I can see just in this thread people want couple of Atheists Lync on streets of Pakistan. And then people complain why Pakistan is considered extremist country by many in west

There is no one more full of it than Pakistanis who claim that Pakistan is a peaceful nation. Religious extremism and intolerance in Pakistan is at levels rarely seen anywhere on earth in the last two centuries. You can count the number of countries that even come close to Pakistan on that front on your fingertips.

 

[Mian]

Like? and do you have any concrete source for your claims?

Pervez Hoodbhoy any doubt? And he was professor at multiple Pakistani universities. How many times he was attacked physically while living in Pakistan?

 

[Badsha]

Equal rights, freedom from persecution, the right to be recognized legally as an ex-Muslim without facing legal action among other things.


Only if you keep your atheism secret. People absolutely do care about it if they know someone to be an atheist. The last time I met someone who was openly atheist, despite being one myself and therefore knowing more atheists than most people, was in 2006 and she left Pakistan for university that year never to return. Your claim that people don't care or are pretty chill despite knowing for a fact that someone is an atheist, we come back to my original point that you're either completely unaware of the situation on the ground or you're massively exaggerating how tolerant Pakistanis are.

Your first paragraph I agree with to an extent. In legal terms it is obviously an issue and not accepted from an official standpoint. It needs time.

Your second paragraph - give me a break. Not only did I have friends in school and college that were atheist but knew older men working for companies/govt as well that were atheist. Okay it's not like they publicly announced it in the middle of Sadr but if you got to know them, you would know and not a single person cared.

Maybe you grew up sheltered or something but if you meet enough people in the big cities you'll meet quite a few.

 

[DW44]

Hmmm I didn't know that. It is definitely a big problem. What can one do though? Decades of disgraceful extremism has changed Pakistan sooooo much.

I recently had to do some work with the University of Gujrat (in Punjab, Pakistan, not India's Gujarat) and they had a group of PhD students doing their doctorates on, wait for it, "how to use organically farmed produce to alter the psyche of people who don't pray". To think that there's an actual university where people are currently pursuing a PhD in THAT as we speak boggles the mind.

 

[Enigma_]

I recently had to do some work with the University of Gujrat (in Punjab, Pakistan, not India's Gujarat) and they had a group of PhD students doing their doctorates on, wait for it, "how to use organically farmed produce to alter the psyche of people who don't pray". To think that there's an actual university where people are currently pursuing a PhD in THAT as we speak boggles the mind.

Deep rooted extremism.

 

[Mian]

Turn it up! So bashing other religions = lynching/killing? Complete and utter B/S. If you and your God can't handle criticism then you and your God are the ones that are insecure.

Than you should shut up because that's my view i hate both those Taliban types and the Atheists type who can't live without bashing others views. And learn to read my post whetr i said the difference is use of weapons otherwise you are bith extremists in your approach.

 

[Mian]

The PP Atheist brigades wait for these type of threads so they can come out and show the world how smart they are using same extreme approach of bashing other views just like mullahs. You guya are same for me if i remove the violence from mullahs approach.

 

[Badsha]

I am not an Atheist. Also this isn't the point. How does such arrogance lead to violence against a person? They are free to share their views. You can't kill someone over it.

Are you putting words in my mouth? When the hell did I talk about that? All we argued was hypocrisy and why people claim atheists are hypocrites.

Its one thing to be openly Atheist among your friends and family. Completely different if somebody is openly Atheist in Public. I can Imagine people in LUMS, Quaid Azam Univ in ISB, but that's limited to those institution and in narrow setting too. There is no news paper, where you can write about Atheism in Pakistan.

Yes, I agree and that's my original point. Openly being Atheist in public and for it to be officially recognized is not there and it will take time. I admit that this is a problem.
[MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] was saying you have to keep it a secret at all times and that is simply false. Like you mention as well, in college campuses, trendy hang out places and biggest cities in general if you get to know people and find out they are atheist no one cares. It is limited but it is there and if you want to live as atheist in Pakistan you can do it without getting death threats.

 

[Enigma_]

Than you should shut up because that's my view i hate both those Taliban types and the Atheists type who can't live without bashing others views. And learn to read my post whetr i said the difference is use of weapons otherwise you are bith extremists in your approach.

The fact that you equate the Taliban with Atheists who can't live without bashing other views says a lot about you a person. False equivalence at it is finest. Remind me again of who's insecure? If your religion is so perfect then it should be able to handle criticism right? Or did God tell you otherwise? What a joke.

 

[PakLFC]

They should be openly allowed to express their views. Maulana culture in Pakistan is responsible for these people being to afraid to come out openly. Atheists are not answerable to any Imam or Mullah at all. They are as human as anyone else.

 

[Enigma_]

Are you putting words in my mouth? When the hell did I talk about that? All we argued was hypocrisy and why people claim atheists are hypocrites.
.

I am talking about the state of affairs in Pakistan in regards to the killing bit. And atheists are no more hypocrites then their religious counter parts. The fact that you can't see that is telling.

 

[DW44]

Your first paragraph
Your second paragraph - give me a break. Not only did I have friends in school and college that were atheist but knew older men working for companies/govt as well that were atheist. Okay it's not like they publicly announced it in the middle of Sadr but if you got to know them, you would know and not a single person cared.

Maybe you grew up sheltered or something but if you meet enough people in the big cities you'll meet quite a few.

Grew up sheltered? Over the last 6 years, I've lived and traveled by myself all over Punjab and KPK due to the nature of my work, interacted with people ranging from the CTO of Telenor to daily wage laborers, managed teams of hundreds of people and shared living quarters with them in cities including but not limited to Lahore, Multan, Peshawar and Bahawalpur. Not once did I come across an atheist, much less one who would openly admit to being one, with that one exception of the girl from high school and that was in 2006 when extremism was still not nearly as mainstream as it was today. This was in a high end school in Islamabad which should, by your own logic, be crawling with atheists who're open about their atheism but even there, in much better times, only one person was openly atheist. I for one wouldn't admit to being an atheist even to my closest friends because religion is something people put above all else and the Pakistani brand of religion has developed a when in doubt, kill mindset. People have been killed on mere accusations.

 

[yasir]

Where in this post of mine i said its wrong? Why you guys are so insecure? The only difference between a religious extremists and an atheist is the use of weapons otherwise you both are extreme in your approach can't follow the ruke of live and let live because you think you guys are too smart and you should bash everyone's views faith and religion.

Atheist has no problem with religion, if that is not part of policy framework. Why religion should be respected, if it is one of the political ideology? - It has to defend like another ideology with no special privileges.

Atheism is not a believe system, its like anti-racism, which is not the same thing as racism. Nobody calls Anti-racist movements as form of racism . We are negating the superstition ideas and politics done on those ideologies, there is no shame in it. Atheist have used intellectual tools to fight the ignorant and dogmatic religions, only the one that are still active in society's day to day operation. Atheist don't care about Thors, Odin or other pagan Gods, since there is on politics done under their name...

 

[Mian]

The fact that you equate the Taliban with Atheists who can't live without bashing other views says a lot about you a person. False equivalence at it is finest. Remind me again of who's insecure? If your religion is so perfect then it should be able to handle criticism right? Or did God tell you otherwise? What a joke.

You Atheists and your freedom of speech is too funny lets also bash each other's parents and kids and make fun of them after all it's all about freedom of speech and you should be able to handle any criticism coming towards your family just like your targeting your criticism towards my views and faith thats personal to me just like your family is personal to you.

 

[DW44]

The PP Atheist brigades wait for these type of threads so they can come out and show the world how smart they are using same extreme approach of bashing other views just like mullahs. You guya are same for me if i remove the violence from mullahs approach.

What brigade, there are maybe five Pakistani atheists on PP, two who actually live in Pakistan. The false equivalency between atheists and Islamic extremists is ridiculous considering no Pakistani atheists wants their lifestyle and values imposed on everyone from above like Islamists do, nor has any Pakistani atheist ever killed someone over their religious beliefs or perceived slights against their disbelief, something Pakistani Muslims do on a regular basis with the month of April 2017 alone seeing 2 successful and three unsuccessful lynchings.

 

[Enigma_]

You Atheists and your freedom of speech is too funny lets also bash each other's parents and kids and make fun of them after all it's all about freedom of speech and you should be able to handle any criticism coming towards your family just like your targeting your criticism towards my views and faith thats personal to me just like your family is personal to you.

I am not an Atheist. it is a book. Don't equate a book to a human life.

 

[Badsha]

Grew up sheltered? Over the last 6 years, I've lived and traveled by myself all over Punjab and KPK due to the nature of my work, interacted with people ranging from the CTO of Telenor to daily wage laborers, managed teams of hundreds of people and shared living quarters with them in cities including but not limited to Lahore, Multan, Peshawar and Bahawalpur. Not once did I come across an atheist, much less one who would openly admit to being one, with that one exception of the girl from high school and that was in 2006 when extremism was still not nearly as mainstream as it was today. This was in a high end school in Islamabad which should, by your own logic, be crawling with atheists who're open about their atheism but even there, in much better times, only one person was openly atheist. I for one wouldn't admit to being an atheist even to my closest friends because religion is something people put above all else and the Pakistani brand of religion has developed a when in doubt, kill mindset. People have been killed on mere accusations.

I hope you take no offence to this but if in all your years of travelling you were only able to meet one Atheist girl, that too in Islamabad (where I went for high school as well) then you either lack social skills or are a very reserved person that people don't talk to.

If you want to cry about it to the internet than that's fine but nothings gonna change if you warp the reality. I am a fairly practicing Muslim and I've met a handful of atheists in the schools I was in but you met only one?

 

[Asim_khan]

What is racist about Sam and Richard??

You honestly must be living under a rock if you think neither Sam or Richard don't partake in dog whistle racism and islamphobia. Even to the point well known athiests are calling them out on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/30/we-can-save-atheism-from-the-new-atheists

 

[Mian]

I am not an Atheist. it is a book. Don't equate a book to a human life.

Don't tell me what to do for me my views and religion is personal just like my family. Follow live and let live rule or don't tell me what to do if you can't play by rules i hate it when a mullah atheist or a liberal tells me what to do.

 

[www787]

Get rid of the madrassahs and mullahs and a lot of these problems would be solved. They are a factory of producing extremists.

Naive thinking.

It is not the madrassah or mullah which is the problem, rather what is being taught by the state in those madrassah.

Know plenty of atheists in karachi.

And I see plenty of difference between online atheist and in person atheists. Usually the online ones are the most annoying ones, kind of like Evangelical ones, ironic, right ?

Then there are foreign atheists, who pick on one incident to support their claim that atheists are the most prosecuted ones. Which get picked up by major news channels because it gets them ratings

It is easy being atheists then it is to be a Muslim now a days in most of the countries which support freedom of religion, but those countries are still looked at as the champions of freedom of religion, ironic, isn't it.

 

[DW44]

I hope you take no offence to this but if in all your years of travelling you were only able to meet one Atheist girl, that too in Islamabad (where I went for high school as well) then you either lack social skills or are a very reserved person that people don't talk to.

If you want to cry about it to the internet than that's fine but nothings gonna change if you warp the reality. I am a fairly practicing Muslim and I've met a handful of atheists in the schools I was in but you met only one?

Yes, one because contrary to what you're claiming here, atheists in Pakistan face very real risks, including death, if they're open about it. Admitting to one or two close friends is one thing, being open about it is a different story altogether. What you're saying here, that people who're openly atheist face no issue and there are many of them, is patently not true.

 

[Enigma_]

Naive thinking.

It is not the madrassah or mullah which is the problem, rather what is being taught by the state in those madrassah.

Know plenty of atheists in karachi.

And I see plenty of difference between online atheist and in person atheists. Usually the online ones are the most annoying ones, kind of like Evangelical ones, ironic, right ?

Then there are foreign atheists, who pick on one incident to support their claim that atheists are the most prosecuted ones. Which get picked up by major news channels because it gets them ratings

It is easy being atheists then it is to be a Muslim now a days in most of the countries which support freedom of religion, but those countries are still looked at as the champions of freedom of religion, ironic, isn't it.

Madrassah's and Mullah's ARE the problem.

The day most muslim majority countries allow freedom of religion then they can claim that they're being targeted in foreign countries. Heck even at times like these they are still protected in these foreign countries then they are in their own Homeland. Also where the proof of your claims that Atheists pick on one incident? Most of them are scared of even sharing their thought because they get threatened.

 

[Mian]

Naive thinking.

It is not the madrassah or mullah which is the problem, rather what is being taught by the state in those madrassah.

Know plenty of atheists in karachi.

And I see plenty of difference between online atheist and in person atheists. Usually the online ones are the most annoying ones, kind of like Evangelical ones, ironic, right ?

Then there are foreign atheists, who pick on one incident to support their claim that atheists are the most prosecuted ones. Which get picked up by major news channels because it gets them ratings

It is easy being atheists then it is to be a Muslim now a days in most of the countries which support freedom of religion, but those countries are still looked at as the champions of freedom of religion, ironic, isn't it.

Great post some of these atheist don't miss a chance to target others but they cry like babies when they are on receiving end even at a very low level.

 

[Heisenberg]

Where in this post of mine i said its wrong? Why you guys are so insecure? The only difference between a religious extremists and an atheist is the use of weapons otherwise you both are extreme in your approach can't follow the ruke of live and let live because you think you guys are too smart and you should bash everyone's views faith and religion.

The only difference you stated there is a pretty massive one. The fact that you trivialised it is something else.

Yes there's no difference between a religious extremist and an atheist except the former would kill you for not agreeing with him and the latter will debate with you and at worst laugh at you.

There's also a misconception about Atheists being obsessed with religion. That only holds true for people who have grown up in societies where they are outsiders and forced to live a life they don't care about.

 

[boomboomcheema]

What this thread shows is how much the atheists in Pakistan hate Islam. Unfortunately, for them Pakistan is established on Islamic Principles and Islamic identity is an integral part of the country. So whether they like it or not, will have to deal with it.

Another observant fact about Atheists in Pakistan, which is also confirmed by the article, is that they despise the Army to infinity. Wouldn't come across any other group than atheists with their hatred for the Pakistani Army which even makes their allegiance to the country all the more doubtful. Many of them justify the War on Terrorism in Pakistan and the killings of religious people as collateral damage. Fact.

 

[Enigma_]

Don't tell me what to do for me my views and religion is personal just like my family. Follow live and let live rule or don't tell me what to do if you can't play by rules i hate it when a mullah atheist or a liberal tells me what to do.

Tells you what to do? Just because their exercise their right to free speech and go against social dogma doesn't mean they are enforcing their idea on you. Seriously you have to be joking right? The state of Pakistan enforces Islam on everyone that lives their and then you have the audacity to claim that Atheists are the ones forcing their views on to you. What the hell? And if you don't like what they're saying you can ignore. You know that right?

 

[DW44]

Great post some of these atheist don't miss a chance to target others but they cry like babies when they are on receiving end even at a very low level.

Difference between an atheist targeting someone and a Pakistani Muslim doing the same:

I'm an atheist here who is targeting you. How much harm has come to you from it? The comparable case for Muslims is Mashal Khan. Go ask him how much harm came to him when Muslims targeted him. Can't ask? He's not around? Just like a thought.

 

[Enigma_]

What this thread shows is how much the atheists in Pakistan hate Islam. Unfortunately, for them Pakistan is established on Islamic Principles and Islamic identity is an integral part of the country. So whether they like it or not, will have to deal with it.

Another observant fact about Atheists in Pakistan, which is also confirmed by the article, is that they despise the Army to infinity. Wouldn't come across any other group than atheists with their hatred for the Pakistani Army which even makes their allegiance to the country all the more doubtful. Many of them justify the War on Terrorism in Pakistan and the killings of religious people as collateral damage. Fact.

I don't despise the army. I do think they have way too much say in political affairs though. That should be left to the civilians. As for the first bit I hope one day this changes. I really do. Because that's the day Pakistan will wake up from its slumber.

I can't speak for everyone but I don't justify collateral damage. I just want these extremist producing factories shut down.

 

[yasir]

You Atheists and your freedom of speech is too funny lets also bash each other's parents and kids and make fun of them after all it's all about freedom of speech and you should be able to handle any criticism coming towards your family just like your targeting your criticism towards my views and faith thats personal to me just like your family is personal to you.

Argument main mama Key Sariee layoo gay tu phir hum kiya khayaan....

Problem with this line of thinking is that, mother is personal but if she happens to be politican than her ideology we all have to deal with... If you faith is limited to you, I don't have to bash Allah, Prophet or Quran. I have no need to discuss them in public, but they are part of political and social system, which we all share. At that point its no more personal, its a shared ideology...If you are so insecure about your Gods and Books, well then take them out of politics

 

[DW44]

What this thread shows is how much the atheists in Pakistan hate Islam. Unfortunately, for them Pakistan is established on Islamic Principles and Islamic identity is an integral part of the country. So whether they like it or not, will have to deal with it.

You don't say! I wonder how you'd feel about, say, atheism if you're forced to live in a country where the public and government enforce atheism the same way Pakistan and Pakistanis do Islam. It's easy to say deal with it when you don't have to deal with it yourself, it's a different story altogether when the shoe is on the other foot.

Another observant fact about Atheists in Pakistan, which is also confirmed by the article, is that they despise the Army to infinity. Wouldn't come across any other group than atheists with their hatred for the Pakistani Army which even makes their allegiance to the country all the more doubtful. Many of them justify the War on Terrorism in Pakistan and the killings of religious people as collateral damage. Fact.

Again, captain obvious, they'd naturally be opposed to the army, an entity that introduced Islamic extremism in Pakistan and continues to stand by some of the worst terrorist organizations like Lashkar e Jhangvi, Sipah Sahaba and Afghan Taliban. You expect atheists to like and admire an organization that turned their nation into a nation of extremists where Molana Ludhianvi can address crowds numbering in the tens of thousands three miles from ISI headquarters?

 

[czar]

Another observant fact about Atheists in Pakistan, which is also confirmed by the article, is that they despise the Army to infinity. Wouldn't come across any other group than atheists with their hatred for the Pakistani Army which even makes their allegiance to the country all the more doubtful. Many of them justify the War on Terrorism in Pakistan and the killings of religious people as collateral damage. Fact.

))

How long before atheists are declared as Indian/Yahudi Agents and up for capital punishment ?

 

[DW44]

If an online discussion leads to such hostile reactions then what will happen if Atheists unmask themselves in Pakistan and go mainstream?

Lynching, straight up. No questions asked.

 

[yasir]

You honestly must be living under a rock if you think neither Sam or Richard don't partake in dog whistle racism and islamphobia. Even to the point well known athiests are calling them out on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/30/we-can-save-atheism-from-the-new-atheists

Oh Come on, I thought you have something serious, this is all you got against them??

Where is extreme racism in this? - How many people have been killed by Sam and Richard in last 2/3 decades fight religion or any new age Atheist or militant Atheist??

 

[DW44]

))

How long before atheists are declared as Indian/Yahudi Agents and up for capital punishment ?

Already are. If you publicly express views that are different to the mainstream opinion, you'll be accused of being a "paid agent". Just three days back I had to tell someone how tough it is for me to survive on the INR 700 per day that RAW pays me to malign Pakistan and Islam.

 

[www787]

Madrassah's and Mullah's ARE the problem.

The day most muslim majority countries allow freedom of religion then they can claim that they're being targeted in foreign countries. Heck even at times like these they are still protected in these foreign countries then they are in their own Homeland. Also where the proof of your claims that Atheists pick on one incident? Most of them are scared of even sharing their thought because they get threatened.

Madrassah itself isn't a problem. Atheists asking to shut down madrassah and getting rid of Mullah is against the exact same thing what they are trying to advocate. There is a term for it, "hypocrite".

The problem is and will remain to be in near future is what is being taught at those Madrassah by unqualified Mullahs.

You can't ask for the freedom of religion or views while asking to shut down Madrassah, this make you an educated radical atheists (only if you are atheist).

Muslim countries are Muslim countries because majority of the people in those countries want that country to be a Muslim country, that's how democracy works, majority wins. It's another thing some Muslim countries do not tolerate or law exist to not protect freedom of religion, e.g atheism ( it is a "religion" if you are trying to preach to change someone not to believe in one thing but believe in something else).

So you disagree that islamophobe has risen in US since 9/11?. Recent acid attack in UK? Those attacker are the same people who would opposed any protection against any Muslim if only they could. The only valid point you have made that Muslim countries should protect everyone rights and law should be amended to protect everyone right.

Like I said, know many atheists in karachi, open atheists, none of them have any problem, you know why? Because they are atheists not "atheists preacher", like evangelical. Because they believe it is some thing that is personal and should be done in private, for them it is between them and no god. That's why these atheists don't go to masjid to pray or fast.

And if you believe that western media is going to ignore anything related to this then you must be watching "Cartoon Network" all your life.

 

[Third_Umpire]

The PP Atheist brigades wait for these type of threads so they can come out and show the world how smart they are using same extreme approach of bashing other views just like mullahs. You guya are same for me if i remove the violence from mullahs approach.

Errr...that's the whole point isn't it???

Everyone should defend their belief with vigor, belief is important in life. On the same token, everyone should have the courage and patience to hear views opposing their belief. Religion inspires some people have no problems looting, killing, murdering because someone said or did something they don't like or agree with. This type of behavior is sub-human, and needs to be eliminated along with all instigating forces.

 

[Syed1]

You can be Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Athiest.. that is your choice, but you don't have a choice of abusing and badmouthing the army which is laying down lives so that you can run your mouth.

You may have differences with the policies of Army and the "deep state" but have respect for the institute which is battling a much larger enemy for the last 70 years and is also fighting an insurgency for the last 15. If you want to spew filth against the army you are most welcome to get up and go your own way, lets see how far you get.