What's new

Pakistan is a mid-table team in all formats- and will be for the next decade at least.

Suleiman

Senior T20I Player
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Runs
17,363
Post of the Week
2
I’ve reached the final stage of grief with team Pakistan. Acceptance. Took me 10 years, but I’m here.

And... it’s okay. Acceptance is the first step to fixing problems, accept that there is a problem.

No quality pacers (except Shaheen- props to this lad)
No quality batsmen

Fielding is average on the best day, below par other wise.

This team is fit to compete with Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Hard to say this, but it’s true. No business competing in Australia, NZ, South Africa.

The gulf of quality in cricket in tests between team Pak and the other teams is very sad to watch at times. I feel like in the shorter formats these weaknesses aren’t exposed as much due to the nature of shorter formats and the smaller duration, where you can play hit and giggle cricket and still be rewarded at times.

Now people will say but just kick out the current head coach, or the current selector, or the current manager.

Or they’ll say, if XYZ was playing instead of the XI was selected things would be different. But we’ve seen so many changes over the last few years and none of them have amounted to much.

So just accept this reality and take it easy on the guys playing. I still support team Pakistan, I’ll still cheer them on. But I’ve reigned in my expectations by a lot.
 
Welcome to the acceptance stage. Glad you’re here. Just try not to fall for the 6th stage that some people have manufactured here - self-loathing and criticism.

Direct it positively - there’s a lot of upside if fans direct their energies to the right, constructive discussions. We may remain mid table for another few years, but we can either be a good mid table side or a bad mid table side - both are equally possible.

There are deeper structural issues that need attention. In the meanwhile, celebrate the positives.
 
The raw talent is there.

The problem is that Misbah stacks his squads with past-it geriatrics, and the youngsters never get a chance to develop.

There were 18 weeks in England and New Zealand thanks to Covid.

And Misbah decided that nobodies in their mid-thirties like Fawad Alam and Kashif Bhatti and Sohail Khan would benefit more from that experience than Saud Shakeel, Zafar Gohar and Amad Butt.

He has single-handedly ruined the next 5-7 years.
 
I don't know where we'd have been under Mickey, but it certainly would not have been anywhere near as embarassing as this.
 
The raw talent is there.

The problem is that Misbah stacks his squads with past-it geriatrics, and the youngsters never get a chance to develop.

There were 18 weeks in England and New Zealand thanks to Covid.

And Misbah decided that nobodies in their mid-thirties like Fawad Alam and Kashif Bhatti and Sohail Khan would benefit more from that experience than Saud Shakeel, Zafar Gohar and Amad Butt.

He has single-handedly ruined the next 5-7 years.

Mohammad Wasim to the rescue?

I think Pakistan's new domestic system will take 3-4 more years before it hands over some international lever products.

The six teams FC system should pay dividends in 3-4 years.
 
Well India, one of the quality sides just got hammered in NZ recently.

Having said that, wasn't Imran Khan supposed to transform Pak cricket with the wave of his hand. Or was that one of his Twitter claims :rabada2
 
This new FC system drama will also end soon. Absolutely nothing will change in the future.

Pakistani fans must accept their status. We are a Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and West Indies tier cricket nation now. Our best days are behind us.

The mid 70s to the early 2000s was Pakistan cricket’s peak. How good or bad it was compared to other sides of the time is a different story, but that period was the apex of our cricket history.

Pakistan cricket will only resurrect if we do a factory reset and that is not going to happen.

Pakistan is the most cricket ignorant nation in the world. We are unbelievably deluded and in a state of perpetual denial. Our fans, players, ex-players, coaches, selectors, analysts etc. all have zero understanding of cricket.

Hardly 0.1% of our population has any cricket intelligence and acumen. We misdiagnose our problems, we come up with dumb solutions and we look at other teams the wrong way.

Reducing FC teams will not do anything when our cricket culture and mentally is rotten to the core. If reducing teams guarantees success other countries would follow suit.

India has 38 FC teams. Yes we can argue that they have 1.3 billion people, but if we extend this dumb logic of fewer teams = greater quality, then if India reduces its teams to 19, they will automatically raise the standard of their cricket even more.

If they go a step further and reduce the teams to 8, then every cricket breaking through would be of Kohli and Rohit and Bumrah and Ashwin caliber, because only elites among the elites will get a chance to break into the 8 sides catering to billions of people.

By now, it should be clear where and how far I can go with this.

This 6 teams FC drama that we are doing is nothing more than putting a band-aid on a fracture.

Our fans are already drooling and fantasizing over a certain point in the future where they will see the fruits of this dramaybaazi, but I can guarantee them now and that nothing is going to change.
 
Well India, one of the quality sides just got hammered in NZ recently.

Having said that, wasn't Imran Khan supposed to transform Pak cricket with the wave of his hand. Or was that one of his Twitter claims :rabada2

Systems bare fruition after a period of time
 
Systems bare fruition after a period of time

Ok. So long as he's put systems in place that will work long-term, I'm fine. But if he's done things that will make his tenure look good, that's not in keeping with the best interests of his nation.

Anyway, it's clear Imran is no magician who will provide insta-success. Thought he'd said some things that suggested this. Think it was during his pre-PM rallies or some talk in the UK :rabada2
 
Obviously there are problems without a doubt. Pakistan is a mediocre and inconsistent team currently, rather has been for most part of the decade and there are no two ways about it. Yes there have been an achievement or two but point is about majority of the decade across the format along with the overall approach.

However, how we deal with the reality definitely has two ways. One is to start saying everything is constant and nothing can change which will defy even the laws of nature as well as science. Second is having optimism, supporting your team and having some perspective even in criticism and comments. I dont mind people with over critical approach towards things but I personally like taking optimistic view of things while accepting the reality.

As said, things dont remain constant it comes down to attitude, approach and decisions which decide the direction of the change.
 
I agree Fans need to accept this reality and the expectations should be adjusted accordingly. We need to decide on a few principles going forward like not fast-tracking youngsters and unnecessarily hyping them.

We should aim firstly to dominate at home and hopefully take the momentum on overseas tours. With cricket returning to PAkistan home dominance can certainly keep people interested in the game and we can avoid our cricket going hockey route.
 
mid?
I'd say they are at the bottom.

waqar & misbah guaranteed that

with arthur they were in the mid
 
This new FC system drama will also end soon. Absolutely nothing will change in the future.

Pakistani fans must accept their status. We are a Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and West Indies tier cricket nation now. Our best days are behind us.

The mid 70s to the early 2000s was Pakistan cricket’s peak. How good or bad it was compared to other sides of the time is a different story, but that period was the apex of our cricket history.

Pakistan cricket will only resurrect if we do a factory reset and that is not going to happen.

Pakistan is the most cricket ignorant nation in the world. We are unbelievably deluded and in a state of perpetual denial. Our fans, players, ex-players, coaches, selectors, analysts etc. all have zero understanding of cricket.

Hardly 0.1% of our population has any cricket intelligence and acumen. We misdiagnose our problems, we come up with dumb solutions and we look at other teams the wrong way.

Reducing FC teams will not do anything when our cricket culture and mentally is rotten to the core. If reducing teams guarantees success other countries would follow suit.

India has 38 FC teams. Yes we can argue that they have 1.3 billion people, but if we extend this dumb logic of fewer teams = greater quality, then if India reduces its teams to 19, they will automatically raise the standard of their cricket even more.

If they go a step further and reduce the teams to 8, then every cricket breaking through would be of Kohli and Rohit and Bumrah and Ashwin caliber, because only elites among the elites will get a chance to break into the 8 sides catering to billions of people.

By now, it should be clear where and how far I can go with this.

This 6 teams FC drama that we are doing is nothing more than putting a band-aid on a fracture.

Our fans are already drooling and fantasizing over a certain point in the future where they will see the fruits of this dramaybaazi, but I can guarantee them now and that nothing is going to change.

Such a long essay...at least tell us what is this factory reset you speak of?

Also the FC restructure isn’t only about reducing # of teams, it’s about increasing the quality and focus of the cricket being played at the top domestic level. That 6 should increase over time. India’s FC system with 38 teams in of top notch quality and structure
 
Too reactionary and lots of wrist slitting going on, sad to see. Surprised if Mamoon has any wrist left at this point.

india got a hammering in Australia. West Indies got their back handed to them in NZ. It happens. Need to toughen up a bit. We are good but havent quite figured out the puzzle just yet. I think we will get there.
 
Such a long essay...at least tell us what is this factory reset you speak of?

Also the FC restructure isn’t only about reducing # of teams, it’s about increasing the quality and focus of the cricket being played at the top domestic level. That 6 should increase over time. India’s FC system with 38 teams in of top notch quality and structure

Best not to give Mamoon more oxygen than he needs. He is just a windup artist.
 
It's not embarrassing as it is thrashed by in your own backyard by 2-0 and 2-1 why Pakistanis forget too soon

Certainly not as embarassing as the thrashing we got by WI on the WC opener. And that too after we spent 2 months in England, our most preparation for a WC EVER
 
india got a hammering in Australia. West Indies got their back handed to them in NZ. It happens. Need to toughen up a bit. We are good but havent quite figured out the puzzle just yet. I think we will get there.

NZ have lost just 2 series at home in last 8 years.

That being said PCB and Pak team really need to get things right to improve and be consistently in top 5 across the formats. I believe its possible even if given resources are just handled well. There has been just too much unprofessionalism and disintegration in the whole system for far too long which needs to be sorted. Just needs right approach and decision making.
 
I’ve reached the final stage of grief with team Pakistan. Acceptance. Took me 10 years, but I’m here.

And... it’s okay. Acceptance is the first step to fixing problems, accept that there is a problem.

No quality pacers (except Shaheen- props to this lad)
No quality batsmen

Fielding is average on the best day, below par other wise.

This team is fit to compete with Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Hard to say this, but it’s true. No business competing in Australia, NZ, South Africa.

The gulf of quality in cricket in tests between team Pak and the other teams is very sad to watch at times. I feel like in the shorter formats these weaknesses aren’t exposed as much due to the nature of shorter formats and the smaller duration, where you can play hit and giggle cricket and still be rewarded at times.

Now people will say but just kick out the current head coach, or the current selector, or the current manager.

Or they’ll say, if XYZ was playing instead of the XI was selected things would be different. But we’ve seen so many changes over the last few years and none of them have amounted to much.

So just accept this reality and take it easy on the guys playing. I still support team Pakistan, I’ll still cheer them on. But I’ve reigned in my expectations by a lot.

Best thing to do for now. Honestly I had so much hope under Mickey as I could see some direction.
 
NZ have lost just 2 series at home in last 8 years.

That being said PCB and Pak team really need to get things right to improve and be consistently in top 5 across the formats. I believe its possible even if given resources are just handled well. There has been just too much unprofessionalism and disintegration in the whole system for far too long which needs to be sorted. Just needs right approach and decision making.

Yes agreed. No need for this drama artistry and wrist slitting stuff. Unless this forum is filled with middle aged aunties or something. Just need to tighten a few loose screws and we should get this ship on track. We have more than enough to work with.
 
Yes agreed. No need for this drama artistry and wrist slitting stuff. Unless this forum is filled with middle aged aunties or something. Just need to tighten a few loose screws and we should get this ship on track. We have more than enough to work with.

What you’re saying right here has been said in various ways for the last 10 years. You’re still in denial.
 
What you’re saying right here has been said in various ways for the last 10 years. You’re still in denial.

Many teams go through these phases India of the 90's went through it with just 1 or 2 world class players and getting whipped outside the subcontinent. England had a really long lean patch where they had nothing but bits and pieces players playing for them both managed to claw their way out, so will we.

Things are not as bad as they seem. We went through a tough patch with the likes of Akmal bros and Malik taking over the team but are over that hump now (well, really hoping we are). Things also got worse when we lost Amir and Asif and lets not get started on that corruption queen Butt. I do think the worse is behind us. May take just a little bit longer to start challenging world class teams like NZ and Aus in their backyards again but I do think we will get there. So what if it takes another year or two I am willing to dig in.

If wrist slitting is your thing have at it you will find good company with Mamoon here, I am not into that.
 
Countries like Australia, South Africa or even India are able to bounce back very rapidly after a bad series or two, they are able to accurately identify the failures who are incapable of progressing any further, kicking them out for good and replacing them with better players, sticking around with failures who are currently in bad form or not performing at the moment but with plenty of potential going forward and these teams get back to the winning ways in no time.

With Pakistan win lose or draw you have the same players, same head coach, same bowling coach, same old ttf coaches in domestic cricket and NCA who have not constributed to a single world class batsman or bowler still sitting in their jobs. Tbh when you have the PCB chairman and PCB ceo willing to tolerate mediocrity in the team results than you can't really expect anything else for the team and players.

Wasim Khan and Ehsan Mani have already gotten rid of Sarfaraz and Azhar Ali as captains and now I am hoping they will make some serious calls on Misbah and Waqar going fwd because this present team management is just not delivering
 
I will say this, the problems we are seeing with the quality of Cricket our players have been showing in domestic and international cricket are ultimately linked to the absence of financial capital and international cricket in Pakistan for a good decade and it will perhaps take 5-10 years of consistent non stop work at the grass roots, academies before we start producing a very decent supply of players.

India started investing massively in its Cricket in the 90's but they started showing results in the early 2000's onwards
 
Savak the issue is more deep rooted than that and we just dont have the supply of well coached domestic cricketers that these other countries do. Can't be playing musical chairs with what we have need to give folks time to prove themselves I dont think just chucking out the baby with the bathwater is any sort of solution here. New Zealand is a difficult place to visit and the tour has been difficult to begin with. Need to show a little more patience, just my opinion.
 
Many teams go through these phases India of the 90's went through it with just 1 or 2 world class players and getting whipped outside the subcontinent. England had a really long lean patch where they had nothing but bits and pieces players playing for them both managed to claw their way out, so will we.

Things are not as bad as they seem. We went through a tough patch with the likes of Akmal bros and Malik taking over the team but are over that hump now (well, really hoping we are). Things also got worse when we lost Amir and Asif and lets not get started on that corruption queen Butt. I do think the worse is behind us. May take just a little bit longer to start challenging world class teams like NZ and Aus in their backyards again but I do think we will get there. So what if it takes another year or two I am willing to dig in.

If wrist slitting is your thing have at it you will find good company with Mamoon here, I am not into that.

Very well put.

Indeed the worst phase is behind us when everything had dried up and the domestic system was packed with average performers, journeymen, ttfs and muddle aged uncles.
Now, we are seeing the talent there in the domestic setup, but it is a question of how we can develop it.

It indeed will take some time before we get better at that, however, for now firing Waqar and Misbah will be of great help. Granted that we are still mediocre, but we are not half as bad as we are made to look like under these two P.E teachers.
There is absolutely no direction with these guys, which wasn't the case, under Mickey.
 
Savak the issue is more deep rooted than that and we just dont have the supply of well coached domestic cricketers that these other countries do. Can't be playing musical chairs with what we have need to give folks time to prove themselves I dont think just chucking out the baby with the bathwater is any sort of solution here. New Zealand is a difficult place to visit and the tour has been difficult to begin with. Need to show a little more patience, just my opinion.

Tbh I don't blame the players that much beyond a certain point, I have serious question marks over the team management. Misbah was a seriously defensive player and captain, is he really the right guy to take this team forward at a time when our team is desperately trying to catch up with the rest of the world?

Less said about the con artist Waqar Younis the better, 5 coaching tenures is enough to tell you that the guy is not going to deliver as bowling coach. He made Sami bowl slower during his tenure, Mohd Irfan regressed badly under him and now we are already seeing what has happened to Naseem Shah under his watch. I find it extremely frustrating to see how a tear away fast bowler like him who received Phaar do Jaake instructions from IK is deliberately instructing the likes of Nasim Shah, Shaheen Afridi to bowl line and length stuff at reduced pace in test matches
 
Yeah agreed we are on the same page with that. But until then I dont think just chucking people out without giving them a good run is the solution. Just need some patience I think we will see good results in the next 6 months or so. These things take time. Particularly given we arent playing a lot of cricket.
 
Yeah agreed we are on the same page with that. But until then I dont think just chucking people out without giving them a good run is the solution. Just need some patience I think we will see good results in the next 6 months or so. These things take time. Particularly given we arent playing a lot of cricket.

That depends. Someone like Naseem Shah looks seriously regressed and short of confidence. It will be very hard for the selectors to keep picking him on the basis of talent, potential alone without performances and maybe it will actually be better for him to grind a little in domestic cricket and come back after picking up heaps of wickets. Better to try some other bowler who is in better form atm
 
Now wait until these 30+ uncles hog the team for the SA home series and do the bare minimum to get a longer rope. That stat of the total test runs between Abid, Fawad and Haris being less than 2000 and their age is shockingly alarming.

It is one thing being mid-table, but to rinse and repeat mistakes is definitely deliberate. Politically deliberate, showing lack of vision, or interest. Injuries don't help either. You've got Imam, Amir, Hassan, even Fakhar if did not have a thick head - all discarded for various reasons where these guys should be at their peak currently and would have already made their mark at the world stage. It is fault at both parties, the management and players. Both uneducated, both ego-centric, both typical Pakistan mentalities - it is bound to be a failure.

Most importantly, I will be very surprised if first team cricket is considered as a job back home. The seriousness associated with a 'job' is just not there. That's why you can get away with being in the team by just having one skill. We're making Abbas and Abid look like world beaters, but they wouldn't even be picked for any other team, even Bangladesh in their test side.

The reason Pakistan will remain mid-table for the forseeable future is because there is absolutely no interest in educational development. It may sound crude, but galli mohalla players cannot survive the big-tier cricket now that technology has advanced. In today's day and age, how can you even consider someone for any job who hasn't even completed basic schooling. As a mentor, or coach, if you cannot have a basic conversation with players to discuss tactics, how do you expect the team to have any planning in their approach.

Talent alone will get you nowhere. Hard-work (obtaining education, fitness, mental awareness) will. And hard-work is a taboo in Pakistan.
 
Very well put.

Indeed the worst phase is behind us when everything had dried up and the domestic system was packed with average performers, journeymen, ttfs and muddle aged uncles.
Now, we are seeing the talent there in the domestic setup, but it is a question of how we can develop it.

It indeed will take some time before we get better at that, however, for now firing Waqar and Misbah will be of great help. Granted that we are still mediocre, but we are not half as bad as we are made to look like under these two P.E teachers.
There is absolutely no direction with these guys, which wasn't the case, under Mickey.

I disagree with that Pacy. In my opinion Mickey was a terrible test coach and a slightly above average limited overs coach. I do think Misbah will do as coach what he did as captain for Pak cricket, maybe even more so with the likes of Babar and Rizwan taking over batting duties. I see very bright futures for both.

Not sure about Waqar or YK for that matter but really the head coach is what matters. Anyway we can disagree on this point but I think we should give misbah another 6-12 months with the test team and see what he can do. Limited overs is another story I am in favor of replacing these guys with better T20 coaching options for sure.
 
The raw talent is there.

The problem is that Misbah stacks his squads with past-it geriatrics, and the youngsters never get a chance to develop.

There were 18 weeks in England and New Zealand thanks to Covid.

And Misbah decided that nobodies in their mid-thirties like Fawad Alam and Kashif Bhatti and Sohail Khan would benefit more from that experience than Saud Shakeel, Zafar Gohar and Amad Butt.

He has single-handedly ruined the next 5-7 years.

What raw talent? Name a few so I can laugh at you for having more trust in those players than their own mothers would :))
 
I’ve reached the final stage of grief with team Pakistan. Acceptance. Took me 10 years, but I’m here.

And... it’s okay. Acceptance is the first step to fixing problems, accept that there is a problem.

No quality pacers (except Shaheen- props to this lad)
No quality batsmen

Fielding is average on the best day, below par other wise.

This team is fit to compete with Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Hard to say this, but it’s true. No business competing in Australia, NZ, South Africa.

The gulf of quality in cricket in tests between team Pak and the other teams is very sad to watch at times. I feel like in the shorter formats these weaknesses aren’t exposed as much due to the nature of shorter formats and the smaller duration, where you can play hit and giggle cricket and still be rewarded at times.

Now people will say but just kick out the current head coach, or the current selector, or the current manager.

Or they’ll say, if XYZ was playing instead of the XI was selected things would be different. But we’ve seen so many changes over the last few years and none of them have amounted to much.

So just accept this reality and take it easy on the guys playing. I still support team Pakistan, I’ll still cheer them on. But I’ve reigned in my expectations by a lot.

I think Pakistan can do better in ODIs and they have a good chance in 2023 WC. Babar and Shaheen are truly world class and Haider seems to be very talented as well. In T20s also, they have got some skilled bowlers.

In tests, I don't think they will do a lot better. They can't dominate at home/UAE like other top teams and struggle overseas.
 
I would advise Pacey wisdom and Shoaibm and other bright eyed younguns to come back in 5 years and give the same condescending speeches if possible. Many of the people here have gone through the trials and tribulations by fire for a decade or more.
 
I would advise Pacey wisdom and Shoaibm and other bright eyed younguns to come back in 5 years and give the same condescending speeches if possible. Many of the people here have gone through the trials and tribulations by fire for a decade or more.

Its been a tough decade for us i agree. And I went through it with you, if not on this forum I watched everything unfold and it was tough. I do believe the next few years things will get better. Rizwan is a great addition to the team. As are Babar and Shaheen. We have a nucleus and we can and we will build around it. Hang in there with us now! :)
 
I would advise Pacey wisdom and Shoaibm and other bright eyed younguns to come back in 5 years and give the same condescending speeches if possible. Many of the people here have gone through the trials and tribulations by fire for a decade or more.

Most of them have posting the same stuff under different IDs for years, while others are just younglings who are yet to make peace with reality. They will, like others, learn things the hard way.
 
Its been a tough decade for us i agree. And I went through it with you, if not on this forum I watched everything unfold and it was tough. I do believe the next few years things will get better. Rizwan is a great addition to the team. As are Babar and Shaheen. We have a nucleus and we can and we will build around it. Hang in there with us now! :)

It is not a great nucleus if you can name only three of which only Babar is world class. The rest are literally little over club level. And the management is even worse. You can go back to 2018 or 2016 or 2014-15 and you will find [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] posts on how we’ve found a great nucleus and can now build a team to become the best. And he ends up placing more trust in some of the players to go to the top than their own families do :)).
 
Last edited:
It is not a great nucleus if you can name only three of which only Babar is world class. The rest are literally little over club level. And the management is even worse. You can go back to 2018 or 2016 or 2014-15 and you will find [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] posts on how we’ve found a great nucleus and can now build a team to become the best. And he ends up placing more trust in some of the players to go to the top than their own families do :)).

Well we can agree to disagree. I do think Babar, Shaheen and Rizwan are world class and that we have some useful roleplayers already in the team. There are some bright names coming up in domestic cricket as well. Agree to disagree i suppose.
 
Well we can agree to disagree. I do think Babar, Shaheen and Rizwan are world class and that we have some useful roleplayers already in the team. There are some bright names coming up in domestic cricket as well. Agree to disagree i suppose.

Yes we can agree to disagree. These names in domestic have their reputations grow with every passing series till the series they are finally selected. And then it goes kaput and over the next few series’, the dropped players get to have their reputations grow till they are eventually recalled. And then the cycle continues...
 
Yes we can agree to disagree. These names in domestic have their reputations grow with every passing series till the series they are finally selected. And then it goes kaput and over the next few series’, the dropped players get to have their reputations grow till they are eventually recalled. And then the cycle continues...

You could argue the same has happened with Joe Burns and Mayank Agarwal...

Most good teams have a nucleas of 3 world class players. Great teams have 4-5. I don think we are as far off as some others will have us believe but lets just see.
 
Most of them have posting the same stuff under different IDs for years, while others are just younglings who are yet to make peace with reality. They will, like others, learn things the hard way.

I was always eagerly waiting for Pakistan matches but after some years Alhamdulilah I had accepted the reality and now Pakistan mediocre performance doesn't hurt me.
 
You could argue the same has happened with Joe Burns and Mayank Agarwal...

Most good teams have a nucleas of 3 world class players. Great teams have 4-5. I don think we are as far off as some others will have us believe but lets just see.

You are living in a dream world. We have 1 world class player and Shaheen is a very good one but not world class. And these good teams you mention have many good players too which we don’t have asides from rizwan
 
What raw talent? Name a few so I can laugh at you for having more trust in those players than their own mothers would :))

Instead of poking fun at [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - give credit where credit is due..

He was the only one supporting inclusion of Fahim Ashraf and now we are starting to see maybe it is actually justified in SENA conditions..
 
This new FC system drama will also end soon. Absolutely nothing will change in the future.

Pakistani fans must accept their status. We are a Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and West Indies tier cricket nation now. Our best days are behind us.

The mid 70s to the early 2000s was Pakistan cricket’s peak. How good or bad it was compared to other sides of the time is a different story, but that period was the apex of our cricket history.

Pakistan cricket will only resurrect if we do a factory reset and that is not going to happen.

Pakistan is the most cricket ignorant nation in the world. We are unbelievably deluded and in a state of perpetual denial. Our fans, players, ex-players, coaches, selectors, analysts etc. all have zero understanding of cricket.

Hardly 0.1% of our population has any cricket intelligence and acumen. We misdiagnose our problems, we come up with dumb solutions and we look at other teams the wrong way.

Reducing FC teams will not do anything when our cricket culture and mentally is rotten to the core. If reducing teams guarantees success other countries would follow suit.

India has 38 FC teams. Yes we can argue that they have 1.3 billion people, but if we extend this dumb logic of fewer teams = greater quality, then if India reduces its teams to 19, they will automatically raise the standard of their cricket even more.

If they go a step further and reduce the teams to 8, then every cricket breaking through would be of Kohli and Rohit and Bumrah and Ashwin caliber, because only elites among the elites will get a chance to break into the 8 sides catering to billions of people.

By now, it should be clear where and how far I can go with this.

This 6 teams FC drama that we are doing is nothing more than putting a band-aid on a fracture.

Our fans are already drooling and fantasizing over a certain point in the future where they will see the fruits of this dramaybaazi, but I can guarantee them now and that nothing is going to change.

The reformed FC system is excellent on papers, but obviously proper execution has to be there. I think, you are focusing too much on the number 6, which resembles to Australian system (I think now they have added two more as well, not sure). The idea is not about 6 teams or 19 teams or 38 teams, rather the ide is about bringing whole country under one umbrella in a tier system where top talents of the country are accumulated at top tier and they compete each other - here 6, is just a random number. Personally, I would have gone for 8 teams - keeping same area demarcation intact, I would have added just two more teams - Metro Karachi (Sindh separate, Hyderabad as base), Metro Lahore (Central Punjab becomes North Punjab, Faisalabad as base). Also, it's actually not 6 teams, rather 12 teams considering the Second XI.

On contrary, every other system is exactly as the revised model - even if you go to cash scrapped ZIM, their FC teams are Mashonaland, Matabeleland, West Rhinoland ........... not ZIM Commercial Bank or Electric Supply .... PAK/PCB was one unique system where Cricket was run under Corporate banners in a mercenary system where players play a domestic season in several teams. In India, they do have 38 teams, but the concept is same - whole country covered by State teams and to increase the quality they play two tier FC cricket - PCB can give Second XI FC status, it'll be two tier as well, but devaluing PAK's FC stats. There is a reason some of the most obnoxious FC stats are produce in Indian domestics because they also have very low quality teams under FC status - check career stats of Ajay Sharma, Vinay Kumar, Bhaskar Pillay, Surinder Bhave, Kanitkar, Rishi Dhawan .... just few names coming on top of mind. But, their infrastructure is very good, coaching resources as well - so, a quality players after couple of seasons in Ranji is often ready for International Cricket, which won't happen in PAK domestics.

The reformed structure is a beautiful idea for organizing the game, if functioning properly - it'll bring competitiveness, talent scouting, player distribution etc. But, it won't be effective if the fundaments are not improved - better coaching, skill development programs, payment, discipline, infrastructure etc ... for which you need money, lots of it. Therefore, this system also can fail if these elements are not covered. But, that has nothing to do with the concept of revised FC system - which is a fantastic development.

For the other part of your post, i think PAK fans are not different from other south Asian fans - cricket being an extremely complex game I doubt even 0.1% from IND, PAK or BD has a grasp of the game or not, but they are too passionate - often argues without even understanding what's the topic. In that regard, I won't say passionate but ignorant fans are a blessings - the type of performance PAK/BD is giving these days (or India gave in 1990s), had majority fans been cricket educated, respective boards would have gone bankrupt!!!! It's better that the fans should follow the game without much clue of it ...
Your or our problem in PP is few trolls, who are too expressive about their passion & thoughts without much clue of it and then gets into tug of war to establish their point, or to settle scores.

Actually, it's a small matter of understanding how sports culture works, where there is a gap. The popular belief is that PAK has lots of natural talent, Pakistanis are born cricketers ... etc - obviously there is not much confusion that PAK is a mediocre team, as it's a fact, endorsed by the results and on-field show, but the outcome of the clash between the Talent myth & the result reality is blaming selectors and coaching staff ... as if you engage Denis Lillee and Naseem Shah will become second coming of Fred Truman. And, second problem is - these passionate fan base has absolutely no clue of what standard data looks like for a particular skill - hence often gets stuck in numbers that back fires, when you dig in deep.

Finally, regarding future of PAK cricket - this is where the biggest problem lies. System produces professional players in any competitive sports - therefore where PAK cricket will go in next decade depends more on the eco-social indexes of PAK, PCB & domestic cricket is just one element of it. Overall economic system, living standard, focus on fitness/diet, passion for sports, personal/national pride ... etc are the elements these are the elements that drive the sports future of any nation. As of now, there are positive changes made in cricket frontier, but other factors also has to come up, otherwise I am not so hopeful - PAK cricket will tilt down to Hockey route.
 
Instead of poking fun at [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - give credit where credit is due..

He was the only one supporting inclusion of Fahim Ashraf and now we are starting to see maybe it is actually justified in SENA conditions..

Lol this is exactly the problem with Pakistani fans getting excited over one or 2 good innings and anointing someone as the savior. Now Faheem will be called the second coming of Jacques Kallis (as Naseem was called Fred Truman reincarnate by [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]) and when he will almost certainly disappoint on the future we will blame management for restricting their talent :))
 
The reformed FC system is excellent on papers, but obviously proper execution has to be there. I think, you are focusing too much on the number 6, which resembles to Australian system (I think now they have added two more as well, not sure). The idea is not about 6 teams or 19 teams or 38 teams, rather the ide is about bringing whole country under one umbrella in a tier system where top talents of the country are accumulated at top tier and they compete each other - here 6, is just a random number. Personally, I would have gone for 8 teams - keeping same area demarcation intact, I would have added just two more teams - Metro Karachi (Sindh separate, Hyderabad as base), Metro Lahore (Central Punjab becomes North Punjab, Faisalabad as base). Also, it's actually not 6 teams, rather 12 teams considering the Second XI.

On contrary, every other system is exactly as the revised model - even if you go to cash scrapped ZIM, their FC teams are Mashonaland, Matabeleland, West Rhinoland ........... not ZIM Commercial Bank or Electric Supply .... PAK/PCB was one unique system where Cricket was run under Corporate banners in a mercenary system where players play a domestic season in several teams. In India, they do have 38 teams, but the concept is same - whole country covered by State teams and to increase the quality they play two tier FC cricket - PCB can give Second XI FC status, it'll be two tier as well, but devaluing PAK's FC stats. There is a reason some of the most obnoxious FC stats are produce in Indian domestics because they also have very low quality teams under FC status - check career stats of Ajay Sharma, Vinay Kumar, Bhaskar Pillay, Surinder Bhave, Kanitkar, Rishi Dhawan .... just few names coming on top of mind. But, their infrastructure is very good, coaching resources as well - so, a quality players after couple of seasons in Ranji is often ready for International Cricket, which won't happen in PAK domestics.

The reformed structure is a beautiful idea for organizing the game, if functioning properly - it'll bring competitiveness, talent scouting, player distribution etc. But, it won't be effective if the fundaments are not improved - better coaching, skill development programs, payment, discipline, infrastructure etc ... for which you need money, lots of it. Therefore, this system also can fail if these elements are not covered. But, that has nothing to do with the concept of revised FC system - which is a fantastic development.

For the other part of your post, i think PAK fans are not different from other south Asian fans - cricket being an extremely complex game I doubt even 0.1% from IND, PAK or BD has a grasp of the game or not, but they are too passionate - often argues without even understanding what's the topic. In that regard, I won't say passionate but ignorant fans are a blessings - the type of performance PAK/BD is giving these days (or India gave in 1990s), had majority fans been cricket educated, respective boards would have gone bankrupt!!!! It's better that the fans should follow the game without much clue of it ...
Your or our problem in PP is few trolls, who are too expressive about their passion & thoughts without much clue of it and then gets into tug of war to establish their point, or to settle scores.

Actually, it's a small matter of understanding how sports culture works, where there is a gap. The popular belief is that PAK has lots of natural talent, Pakistanis are born cricketers ... etc - obviously there is not much confusion that PAK is a mediocre team, as it's a fact, endorsed by the results and on-field show, but the outcome of the clash between the Talent myth & the result reality is blaming selectors and coaching staff ... as if you engage Denis Lillee and Naseem Shah will become second coming of Fred Truman. And, second problem is - these passionate fan base has absolutely no clue of what standard data looks like for a particular skill - hence often gets stuck in numbers that back fires, when you dig in deep.

Finally, regarding future of PAK cricket - this is where the biggest problem lies. System produces professional players in any competitive sports - therefore where PAK cricket will go in next decade depends more on the eco-social indexes of PAK, PCB & domestic cricket is just one element of it. Overall economic system, living standard, focus on fitness/diet, passion for sports, personal/national pride ... etc are the elements these are the elements that drive the sports future of any nation. As of now, there are positive changes made in cricket frontier, but other factors also has to come up, otherwise I am not so hopeful - PAK cricket will tilt down to Hockey route.

Potw, very well put
 
Lol this is exactly the problem with Pakistani fans getting excited over one or 2 good innings and anointing someone as the savior. Now Faheem will be called the second coming of Jacques Kallis (as Naseem was called Fred Truman reincarnate by [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]) and when he will almost certainly disappoint on the future we will blame management for restricting their talent :))

Fahim is not great but certainly a better option than the other no.8’s in contention..
 
Fahim is not great but certainly a better option than the other no.8’s in contention..

He’s shown heart in this innings no doubt. So credit there.

The problem is that our fans will anoint him as the savior of our fortunes and start calling him a world class all rounder after this innings which he isn’t and won’t be. And then invariably they will be disappointed.

He can be a cog in a good side but not someone to build the side around.
 
These days I can’t even watch this team its so disgraceful. You can just look at the name of the players to know whose gonna win. Losses don’t surprise me anymore as they became the norm of our new brand of cricket.
 
The reformed FC system is excellent on papers, but obviously proper execution has to be there. I think, you are focusing too much on the number 6, which resembles to Australian system (I think now they have added two more as well, not sure). The idea is not about 6 teams or 19 teams or 38 teams, rather the ide is about bringing whole country under one umbrella in a tier system where top talents of the country are accumulated at top tier and they compete each other - here 6, is just a random number. Personally, I would have gone for 8 teams - keeping same area demarcation intact, I would have added just two more teams - Metro Karachi (Sindh separate, Hyderabad as base), Metro Lahore (Central Punjab becomes North Punjab, Faisalabad as base). Also, it's actually not 6 teams, rather 12 teams considering the Second XI.

On contrary, every other system is exactly as the revised model - even if you go to cash scrapped ZIM, their FC teams are Mashonaland, Matabeleland, West Rhinoland ........... not ZIM Commercial Bank or Electric Supply .... PAK/PCB was one unique system where Cricket was run under Corporate banners in a mercenary system where players play a domestic season in several teams. In India, they do have 38 teams, but the concept is same - whole country covered by State teams and to increase the quality they play two tier FC cricket - PCB can give Second XI FC status, it'll be two tier as well, but devaluing PAK's FC stats. There is a reason some of the most obnoxious FC stats are produce in Indian domestics because they also have very low quality teams under FC status - check career stats of Ajay Sharma, Vinay Kumar, Bhaskar Pillay, Surinder Bhave, Kanitkar, Rishi Dhawan .... just few names coming on top of mind. But, their infrastructure is very good, coaching resources as well - so, a quality players after couple of seasons in Ranji is often ready for International Cricket, which won't happen in PAK domestics.

The reformed structure is a beautiful idea for organizing the game, if functioning properly - it'll bring competitiveness, talent scouting, player distribution etc. But, it won't be effective if the fundaments are not improved - better coaching, skill development programs, payment, discipline, infrastructure etc ... for which you need money, lots of it. Therefore, this system also can fail if these elements are not covered. But, that has nothing to do with the concept of revised FC system - which is a fantastic development.

For the other part of your post, i think PAK fans are not different from other south Asian fans - cricket being an extremely complex game I doubt even 0.1% from IND, PAK or BD has a grasp of the game or not, but they are too passionate - often argues without even understanding what's the topic. In that regard, I won't say passionate but ignorant fans are a blessings - the type of performance PAK/BD is giving these days (or India gave in 1990s), had majority fans been cricket educated, respective boards would have gone bankrupt!!!! It's better that the fans should follow the game without much clue of it ...
Your or our problem in PP is few trolls, who are too expressive about their passion & thoughts without much clue of it and then gets into tug of war to establish their point, or to settle scores.

Actually, it's a small matter of understanding how sports culture works, where there is a gap. The popular belief is that PAK has lots of natural talent, Pakistanis are born cricketers ... etc - obviously there is not much confusion that PAK is a mediocre team, as it's a fact, endorsed by the results and on-field show, but the outcome of the clash between the Talent myth & the result reality is blaming selectors and coaching staff ... as if you engage Denis Lillee and Naseem Shah will become second coming of Fred Truman. And, second problem is - these passionate fan base has absolutely no clue of what standard data looks like for a particular skill - hence often gets stuck in numbers that back fires, when you dig in deep.

Finally, regarding future of PAK cricket - this is where the biggest problem lies. System produces professional players in any competitive sports - therefore where PAK cricket will go in next decade depends more on the eco-social indexes of PAK, PCB & domestic cricket is just one element of it. Overall economic system, living standard, focus on fitness/diet, passion for sports, personal/national pride ... etc are the elements these are the elements that drive the sports future of any nation. As of now, there are positive changes made in cricket frontier, but other factors also has to come up, otherwise I am not so hopeful - PAK cricket will tilt down to Hockey route.
Potw very good analysis
 
Well India, one of the quality sides just got hammered in NZ recently.

Having said that, wasn't Imran Khan supposed to transform Pak cricket with the wave of his hand. Or was that one of his Twitter claims :rabada2

It was delusional to think Imran would turn things around. The guy is not interested in cricket anymore.
 
In Rizwan, Shaheen, Babar, maybe Zafar etc, theres plenty of hope for Pakistan in test cricket. In all formats combined you have enough fast bowling talent in Haris Rauf, Naseem Shah, Hasnain etc. Now think back to 2014 when your so called youngsters were bowlers like Talha, Junaid, Ehsan Adil, Rahat Ali, Imtan khan etc. The current lot of Pakistani quicks in particular have a lot of more potential than those guys.

Of course, if your expectations are that "16" year old naseem would be the fastest bowler in the world in tests and the 2and coming of marshall/steyn , you might be disappointed.
 
The reformed FC system is excellent on papers, but obviously proper execution has to be there. I think, you are focusing too much on the number 6, which resembles to Australian system (I think now they have added two more as well, not sure). The idea is not about 6 teams or 19 teams or 38 teams, rather the ide is about bringing whole country under one umbrella in a tier system where top talents of the country are accumulated at top tier and they compete each other - here 6, is just a random number. Personally, I would have gone for 8 teams - keeping same area demarcation intact, I would have added just two more teams - Metro Karachi (Sindh separate, Hyderabad as base), Metro Lahore (Central Punjab becomes North Punjab, Faisalabad as base). Also, it's actually not 6 teams, rather 12 teams considering the Second XI.

On contrary, every other system is exactly as the revised model - even if you go to cash scrapped ZIM, their FC teams are Mashonaland, Matabeleland, West Rhinoland ........... not ZIM Commercial Bank or Electric Supply .... PAK/PCB was one unique system where Cricket was run under Corporate banners in a mercenary system where players play a domestic season in several teams. In India, they do have 38 teams, but the concept is same - whole country covered by State teams and to increase the quality they play two tier FC cricket - PCB can give Second XI FC status, it'll be two tier as well, but devaluing PAK's FC stats. There is a reason some of the most obnoxious FC stats are produce in Indian domestics because they also have very low quality teams under FC status - check career stats of Ajay Sharma, Vinay Kumar, Bhaskar Pillay, Surinder Bhave, Kanitkar, Rishi Dhawan .... just few names coming on top of mind. But, their infrastructure is very good, coaching resources as well - so, a quality players after couple of seasons in Ranji is often ready for International Cricket, which won't happen in PAK domestics.

The reformed structure is a beautiful idea for organizing the game, if functioning properly - it'll bring competitiveness, talent scouting, player distribution etc. But, it won't be effective if the fundaments are not improved - better coaching, skill development programs, payment, discipline, infrastructure etc ... for which you need money, lots of it. Therefore, this system also can fail if these elements are not covered. But, that has nothing to do with the concept of revised FC system - which is a fantastic development.

For the other part of your post, i think PAK fans are not different from other south Asian fans - cricket being an extremely complex game I doubt even 0.1% from IND, PAK or BD has a grasp of the game or not, but they are too passionate - often argues without even understanding what's the topic. In that regard, I won't say passionate but ignorant fans are a blessings - the type of performance PAK/BD is giving these days (or India gave in 1990s), had majority fans been cricket educated, respective boards would have gone bankrupt!!!! It's better that the fans should follow the game without much clue of it ...
Your or our problem in PP is few trolls, who are too expressive about their passion & thoughts without much clue of it and then gets into tug of war to establish their point, or to settle scores.

Actually, it's a small matter of understanding how sports culture works, where there is a gap. The popular belief is that PAK has lots of natural talent, Pakistanis are born cricketers ... etc - obviously there is not much confusion that PAK is a mediocre team, as it's a fact, endorsed by the results and on-field show, but the outcome of the clash between the Talent myth & the result reality is blaming selectors and coaching staff ... as if you engage Denis Lillee and Naseem Shah will become second coming of Fred Truman. And, second problem is - these passionate fan base has absolutely no clue of what standard data looks like for a particular skill - hence often gets stuck in numbers that back fires, when you dig in deep.

Finally, regarding future of PAK cricket - this is where the biggest problem lies. System produces professional players in any competitive sports - therefore where PAK cricket will go in next decade depends more on the eco-social indexes of PAK, PCB & domestic cricket is just one element of it. Overall economic system, living standard, focus on fitness/diet, passion for sports, personal/national pride ... etc are the elements these are the elements that drive the sports future of any nation. As of now, there are positive changes made in cricket frontier, but other factors also has to come up, otherwise I am not so hopeful - PAK cricket will tilt down to Hockey route.

I think people, including you [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION], are reading too much into the the last decade. It was born out of Pakistan losing its 3 best cricketers to match fixing, wholesale ban on cricket in Pakistan, bombings and destruction at home, unstable political situation, zero cricket at home for the entire decade and no patronage to any sport at any level, including cricket.

On top of that the board was bankrupt.

Pakistan played all its games away from home last decade. Imagine living out of a suitcase, away from family and loved one's, all your corporate career!

Yet, they managed to win an ICC tournament and reached no 1 in test and T20 rankings. This included beating elite teams home and way. They unearthed good talent in Babar, Shaheen and Rizwan to have foundations of a new team. They have a better domestic system in place and a positive revenue stream in PSL to set them up for the next decade.

I find it disingenuous people analyzing Pakistan cricket without giving them an ounce of credit on how they managed to stay alive, let alone keep cricket going, and with some stunning results, victories and records. I have respect for you and your analysis so am taking the time to put my viewpoint forward.

I for one am supremely confident, with some basic planning and some luck, the 20's will be a good decade for Pakistan.
 
I’ve reached the final stage of grief with team Pakistan. Acceptance. Took me 10 years, but I’m here.

And... it’s okay. Acceptance is the first step to fixing problems, accept that there is a problem.

No quality pacers (except Shaheen- props to this lad)
No quality batsmen

Fielding is average on the best day, below par other wise.

This team is fit to compete with Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. Hard to say this, but it’s true. No business competing in Australia, NZ, South Africa.

The gulf of quality in cricket in tests between team Pak and the other teams is very sad to watch at times. I feel like in the shorter formats these weaknesses aren’t exposed as much due to the nature of shorter formats and the smaller duration, where you can play hit and giggle cricket and still be rewarded at times.

Now people will say but just kick out the current head coach, or the current selector, or the current manager.

Or they’ll say, if XYZ was playing instead of the XI was selected things would be different. But we’ve seen so many changes over the last few years and none of them have amounted to much.

So just accept this reality and take it easy on the guys playing. I still support team Pakistan, I’ll still cheer them on. But I’ve reigned in my expectations by a lot.

It is hard to accept this reality, but by human nature, we try to point out the flaws in the team.

These flaws can be fielding, individual players, lack of skills, selections, and many more.

I have also accepted a reality, and that reality is that for us to become a better test team, we need to tour weaker countries like WI, SL, BD, etc. We need to then invite such teams and play in home conditions to at least gain match experience. And then come the changes in selection.

The point is that I find myself as a logical optimist, meaning that if there are faults that can be fixed and are making our team worse, then I will still hope that once they are addressed, our team will perform better.

We all know that we have good players. We have a star-studded management.

I don't have an interest in verbally abusing our team or the players, and like you, I have also lowered my expectations for this team until certain changes are made.
 
I think people, including you [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION], are reading too much into the the last decade. It was born out of Pakistan losing its 3 best cricketers to match fixing, wholesale ban on cricket in Pakistan, bombings and destruction at home, unstable political situation, zero cricket at home for the entire decade and no patronage to any sport at any level, including cricket.

On top of that the board was bankrupt.

Pakistan played all its games away from home last decade. Imagine living out of a suitcase, away from family and loved one's, all your corporate career!

Yet, they managed to win an ICC tournament and reached no 1 in test and T20 rankings. This included beating elite teams home and way. They unearthed good talent in Babar, Shaheen and Rizwan to have foundations of a new team. They have a better domestic system in place and a positive revenue stream in PSL to set them up for the next decade.

I find it disingenuous people analyzing Pakistan cricket without giving them an ounce of credit on how they managed to stay alive, let alone keep cricket going, and with some stunning results, victories and records. I have respect for you and your analysis so am taking the time to put my viewpoint forward.

I for one am supremely confident, with some basic planning and some luck, the 20's will be a good decade for Pakistan.

I agree that we have a good team foundation with players like Shaheen, Babar, Shadab, and Rizwan.

However, we need our management to make the tough decisions now. Now is the time to drop players. It's the start of a new decade, so change something and give it time to adapt.

We survived the toughest part of our cricket history, and with our home available to play in, we need to maximize our playing time over there.

A lot of people are disheartened about the overseas performances of the team at the moment. We were thrashed by Australia, barely competed with England, and are about to be abused by New Zealand.

These tours have shown something, that we are not ready for competing in foreign conditions. It also points to selection faults. Now, if these changes are made, then we will see a resurgence of Pakistan Cricket.

Hope and pray that Mohammad Wasim is the man that makes these changes.
 
The question to ask is how did India get so much better than Pakistan from 1999 onwards. Variety of reasons i.e. massive injection of money into the game, investment at grass roots, playing a large volume of cricket against the top teams which means their players got battle hardened and gained quality experience in a short amount of time, excellent leaders in Ganguly, Dhoni and now Kohli, IPL Kerry Packer type exposure.

Unfortunately the PCB cannot copy this formula perfectly overnight and whatever steps Ehsan Mani, Wasim Khan are taking now with out domestic cricket structure, high performance centres, $200 million dollar projected PCB deal will take a good 10 years to show some semblance of results and even then other teams will perhaps be a good 5-10 years ahead of us.
 
I think people, including you [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION], are reading too much into the the last decade. It was born out of Pakistan losing its 3 best cricketers to match fixing, wholesale ban on cricket in Pakistan, bombings and destruction at home, unstable political situation, zero cricket at home for the entire decade and no patronage to any sport at any level, including cricket.

On top of that the board was bankrupt.

Pakistan played all its games away from home last decade. Imagine living out of a suitcase, away from family and loved one's, all your corporate career!

Yet, they managed to win an ICC tournament and reached no 1 in test and T20 rankings. This included beating elite teams home and way. They unearthed good talent in Babar, Shaheen and Rizwan to have foundations of a new team. They have a better domestic system in place and a positive revenue stream in PSL to set them up for the next decade.

I find it disingenuous people analyzing Pakistan cricket without giving them an ounce of credit on how they managed to stay alive, let alone keep cricket going, and with some stunning results, victories and records. I have respect for you and your analysis so am taking the time to put my viewpoint forward.

I for one am supremely confident, with some basic planning and some luck, the 20's will be a good decade for Pakistan.

Salman Butt was not a quality cricketer to be honest. Amir as his comeback and stats has shown is another massively over rated fraud. Asif was the bigger loss but even then the guy's utility on flat wickets was in question.

The biggest damage to Pakistan Cricket was done by the 2009 attacks on the Sri Lankan team which created a plethora of problems for the PCB, Absence of International Cricket in Pakistan, Lack of investment in Pakistani domestic cricket the fall out of which is now showing in the national side.
 
Salman Butt was not a quality cricketer to be honest. Amir as his comeback and stats has shown is another massively over rated fraud. Asif was the bigger loss but even then the guy's utility on flat wickets was in question.

The biggest damage to Pakistan Cricket was done by the 2009 attacks on the Sri Lankan team which created a plethora of problems for the PCB, Absence of International Cricket in Pakistan, Lack of investment in Pakistani domestic cricket the fall out of which is now showing in the national side.

We can debate the value of those cricketers. However, your other points are not contestable and that's why start of last decade was so disastrous, pessimistic and futureless.

That is why 2021 is different. The circumstances have changed and Pakistan is entering the new decade with some money, some plans and overall optimism. It will take time and patience though.
 
This is the sad reality and this is the truth. Stop making excuses about Misbah being the coach which is the issue and other dumb reasons I have seen.

We aren't good enough. Our system will not change dramatically enough for us to start competing with top teams. We are an average test and ODI team.
 
We can debate the value of those cricketers. However, your other points are not contestable and that's why start of last decade was so disastrous, pessimistic and futureless.

That is why 2021 is different. The circumstances have changed and Pakistan is entering the new decade with some money, some plans and overall optimism. It will take time and patience though.

India started to make investments in its domestic cricket in the 90's which coincided with their economic recovery and they started to see the results from 2000 onwards and then even better results from 2007 onwards when the IPL kickstarted.

The investments in Domestic Cricket and the systems in place with the high performance centre, the new coaches being appointed at the NCA, domestic teams and the city teams in due course will at-least take a minimum of 10 years before the results actually show
 
This is the sad reality and this is the truth. Stop making excuses about Misbah being the coach which is the issue and other dumb reasons I have seen.

We aren't good enough. Our system will not change dramatically enough for us to start competing with top teams. We are an average test and ODI team.

Misbah as coach is the problem to be honest. The guy was a very defensive cricketer and captain and sadly as we can all see is no different as coach. Could Misbah as coach have led Pakistan to the 2017 CT win?

Coach makes a big difference in the game. Misbah's first line of action is defense i.e. slow defensive batting, sticking with the same tried and tested experienced players, persisting with mediocrity
 
Misbah as coach is the problem to be honest. The guy was a very defensive cricketer and captain and sadly as we can all see is no different as coach. Could Misbah as coach have led Pakistan to the 2017 CT win?

Coach makes a big difference in the game. Misbah's first line of action is defense i.e. slow defensive batting, sticking with the same tried and tested experienced players, persisting with mediocrity

Misbah needs to go but there are bigger issues in Pakistan cricket than the coach.

I can assure you, Pakistan will still consistently lose bilateral series to the top teams because we don't have the quality. The longer a series or game goes on, trust me quality will find a way to win over mediocrity.
 
No one can predict exactly what's going to happen in the future so that part is debatable. The rankings have been reflecting where we stand for not now but at least a decade so there's nothing to doubt there.

Now, coming to a few fallacies

1. Pakistan does not have 6 teams in the domestic structure. There are 12 teams there and that's more than enough to adjust our talent pool.

2. The reduction of teams is a good strategy but it may or may not work. This is a valid business move where companies contract to reduce costs and become better at their core competence. It may work if things are implemented and taken at the grassroots level.

3. Success in cricket or any sport as a matter of fact needs a system but a good system does not guarantee success. England had a robust county cricket scene for a very long time yet weren't able to find a good cricketing team. Australia has a critically acclaimed system yet they are failing to produce a single batsman that can compete with his English or Hindustani counterparts at the moment.

4. Things are cyclical in nature. What goes up comes down and so on. There's not much to worry about as long as the journey is there. Setting the right expectations is important and that's about it.

5. The margins of victory and defeat aren't as huge as they are made out to be. There's a distinct absence of intelligence in our cricketing system. Misbah, the current incumbent may be a hardworking individual but he's too immersed in the system. Sometimes you need outsiders to get the perspective right and that's our failing. This match that's happening right now needed a couple of players that may or may not have caused an impact but were needed. Yasir and Naseem both didn't merit to play while Rohail and Ammad did well in the practice game. Yet even before the match started, they were left on the sideline. Azhar is too slow and similar a player to Abid and Shan and they don't need to all play in the top three at the same time. Haris should only play if he's willing to bowl 20 overs a day. These are small changes but they change the composition of the entire team and no one in the management has even thought about these changes.

6. It's also obvious that our domestic bullies have inflated statistics. After watching the tournament this year, I have realized that most of the batsmen at least provide two or three chances before they score big. Add to that the tragic quality of balls, pitches, and domestic bowlers, there's a lot of stat-padding by domestic stalwarts. A player like Fawad isn't bad but he's not the solution to any problem going forward. His time was 5 years ago, playing him now is just setting him up to fail.

7. It would also help to find out why things are working so well for some countries and players. This honest admission instead of making YouTube videos bashing your own team and praising some has to end. Get ICC to help coaches, establish academies, and get the systems to work.

8. Lastly, even the most successful cricketing nation has a win percentage that is close to 60 percent. This means that even the most successful team in history wins only 6 matches on average out of ten. A team like Pakistan hovers around 4 wins out of ten.
 
We have average batters but some of the best all rounders in world cricket
Our bowling has only ever played t20s abroad apart from abbas and every else who has been dropped
It's expecting a lot to beat a team who look unbeatable on their new pitch
 
Many teams go through these phases India of the 90's went through it with just 1 or 2 world class players and getting whipped outside the subcontinent. England had a really long lean patch where they had nothing but bits and pieces players playing for them both managed to claw their way out, so will we.

Things are not as bad as they seem. We went through a tough patch with the likes of Akmal bros and Malik taking over the team but are over that hump now (well, really hoping we are). Things also got worse when we lost Amir and Asif and lets not get started on that corruption queen Butt. I do think the worse is behind us. May take just a little bit longer to start challenging world class teams like NZ and Aus in their backyards again but I do think we will get there. So what if it takes another year or two I am willing to dig in.

If wrist slitting is your thing have at it you will find good company with Mamoon here, I am not into that.

I’m not going to dampen your hopefulness since it seems genuine on your end to a certain extent, but as I’ve said your first paragraph is something all Pakistan fans are familiar reading / listening to since post 2003 WC in some shape or form.

New players, new coach, new management aka “minor tweaks”. We’ve tested a hundred or more players in that time frame, handful of coaches, management, selectors who didn’t change anything. All I’m saying is positivity is good, but don’t confuse it with delusion, and don’t confuse realism with being negative.

Can Pak cricket be saved? Yes. But it will take about about 10 years or so for this new system put in place in domestics to actually bear fruit.
 
Pakistan have been playing average cricket since 1999 apart from a few bursts of success under Inzy and Bob, the odd tournament triumph, and the initial honeymoon under Mickey Arthur.

Those moments have been fleeting because we've been trying to build a house on sand. What's promising is the current PCB overhauled our FC system, NCA and pitches instead of pointlessly tinkering around the edges like previous regimes. We also finally have a clear pathway from club, city, U19 and domestic cricket.

What doesn't give me hope is the standard of homegrown coaching which's why our youngsters regress after initial promise. Someone like Shan Masood couldn't trust the system and needed to go overseas to develop his game. There are no Gary Palmers our youngsters can turn to when in a rut. Coaches like Basit Ali, Ijaz Ahmed and Faisal Iqbal don't inspire any confidence. There are progressive thinkers like Mohammad Wasim but we've just taken him out of the system and made him a selector.
 
Pakistan have been playing average cricket since 1999 apart from a few bursts of success under Inzy and Bob, the odd tournament triumph, and the initial honeymoon under Mickey Arthur.

I'd take it back to 1996 apart from a couple of spells under Wasim (96/97 in Australia, 98/99 in India leading in to the World Cup).
 
Saying it will take s decade is ridiculous. I'll compare this to man utd. A few years ago it was said they won't win title for 10 years but this year it is very possible. They had 3/4 top players just like Pakistan. The reason comes down to recruitment. Compare this to Pakistan and ill say the same. We have 3 top players in Babar, Shaheen and Rizwan. Rizwan comes down to top selection eventhough majority didn't agree with his selection. Now he's the BEST test keeper in the world.

For Pak to be mistable and potentially top 3 we need to:
Select the best young hungry players and give them a long run. Don't discard after a few failures and completely back them. I will select Saud Shakeel, Abdullah Shafiq and Haider Ali. Send them to SENA countries on A tours and national team. That's your batting sorted after a few years and world class. Bowlers along with Shsheen i would go for Zafar Gohar, Shahnawaz Dhani and Hasnain for red ball cricket. Suggest others but we will definitely succeed with the bowling resources we have. Just back 2/3 bowlers.

This team would be wonderful if given a few years:

Babar
Haider
Abdullah
Saud
Kamran
Rizwan
Faheem
Zafar
Hasan
Shaheen
Hasnain/Shahnawaz

If we pick the best young players and back them well be back to top 3 and get a top coach like Gary kirsten
 
I’m not going to dampen your hopefulness since it seems genuine on your end to a certain extent, but as I’ve said your first paragraph is something all Pakistan fans are familiar reading / listening to since post 2003 WC in some shape or form.

New players, new coach, new management aka “minor tweaks”. We’ve tested a hundred or more players in that time frame, handful of coaches, management, selectors who didn’t change anything. All I’m saying is positivity is good, but don’t confuse it with delusion, and don’t confuse realism with being negative.

Can Pak cricket be saved? Yes. But it will take about about 10 years or so for this new system put in place in domestics to actually bear fruit.

Well I appreciate your kindness for taking it easy on me. I understand and share your frustration Pakistan has had a tough time post Inzi-Woolmer and much of it has been due to some very questionable characters (Malik, Akmal bros, Butt etc) but I do genuinely believe we finally have a nucleus of players to build around so definitely am more optimistic about this group. Takes time to harden test cricketers as we are seeing with Naseem.

Definitely agree with you that reform is needed in domestic to generate a pipeline of viable talent. But this group with Babar, Rizwan and Shaheen give me some hope. Azhar and Haris and Hafeez are more role players unfortunately they were forced into leadership positions and couldnt handle that very well. I think that is also behind us.

The current group needs another bowler. Was hoping it would be Naseem but he may need a little more time. I think we will find one maybe even Hassan Ali if he can find form/fitness. And we need 1-2 good batters was hoping Haris would be it but his fitness issues are a concern. I know thats a lot of players but my hope is this time around we are starting from a good base. Lets see over the next year or two what happens.

But yes the last 15 or so years have seen some tough times.
 
We shouldnt forget all the positive changes that have happened in the last few months. Dropping Asad shafiq for example. And drafting Rizwan. For me personally we are heading in a good direction but its early days. This is specific to the test team of course the T20 team has regressed a bit.
 
We were spoilt in the past with legendary and great cricketers somehow coming through the system or being spotted mostly by chance.

That luck has run out and we are now going through a revamp of the system and this is going to take quite a few years where we may be able to produce good quality cricketers.

At the moment what I'm seeing are mostly average players coming through, or those that deserve a chance being ignored.
 
Right now suitation doesn't look good but one can hope for good results without being emotional about failures. It is the best to deal with supporting any sport team.
 
I thought you were quite generous to call Pakistan a mid-table team. They are a border line minnow in my book.
 
Well if they keep on changing team management and make up of the side what do you expect? It was a very stupid and short sighted move to remove Micky and Sarfraz after the WC. I recall all armchair experts on this site calling for this move.

Great teams emerge from stability and not continuous change. Now you have to give the new management time to settle down before results start to emerge. It took Clive Lloyd a good 3-4 years to turn around a failing side into the greatest team ever to play the game.
 
The team's consistently poor performances and the dramatic up strides made by the neighbours has now taken a toll on the fans lol. Who would have thought to see the day ten-fifteen years ago where fans of both the countries were very confident to indulge in banter with each other but now even Pakistani fans don't bother to indulge in any arguments anymore.
 
I gauge the quality of any team on how many world-class cricketers it has.

At the moment Pakistan cricket has hardly any world class players at its disposal, meaning we are in a slump which may take years to get out of.
 
I thought you were quite generous to call Pakistan a mid-table team. They are a border line minnow in my book.

Minnows don’t reach number 1 in Tests, or number 1 in T20Is, or win an ICC 50 overs tournament. We are comfortably mid table
 
Back
Top