Pakistan National Assembly session

[zaid65]

Pakistan National Assembly session presided by the president of the country.

 

[waqar_ahmad]

haha....good one zaid

 

[feather]

I wish we can have one of these maybe we we finally get somewhere.

Calm, collected and seated. Supposedly paying attention as well. I will take this any day of the week.

 

[suhaib]

its only a dream, which needs to become a reality desperatly.

 

[Cryptoanalyst]

I wish we can have one of these maybe we we finally get somewhere.

Calm, collected and seated. Supposedly paying attention as well. I will take this any day of the week.

This is the kind of mentality that I would love to see purged from Pakistan. Thanks God, one less dictator lover in Pakistan.

 

[waqar_ahmad]

This is the kind of mentality that I would love to see purged from Pakistan. Thanks God, one less dictator lover in Pakistan.

Unfortunately, this will never happen. People think the army is the solution to all political problems

 

[zaid65]

Unfortunately, this will never happen. People think the army is the solution to all political problems

This is why I keep bringing the cognitive deficits in Pakistani people. Army's main job is to protect the borders and protect the country. This is not army's job to run the Steel Mill, PIA, KDA, WAPDA, sell the real estate and make billions and transfer the money into foreign accounts.

Under army rule, our country has divided into two pieces. Who has created MQM ( for further division in the country), who has started the exterimism in the country , who went to attack the Kargil when Indian PM was meeting with Nawaz Sahrif in Islamabad to instigate the fight?

In our country, the ISI is busy making the political parties or doing the political horse trading, while other countries, they keep on eye on the foreign enemies.

 

[srh]

I dont agree with zaid65 usually but he is absolutely right here. Pakistan is in this mess because of military establishment. I would take a democrat like Fatima Jinnah over a military dictator like Ayub Khan every time. Just because Musharaff has done some very good things does not mean Military rule is halal now.

 

[zaid65]

I dont agree with zaid65 usually but he is absolutely right here. Pakistan is in this mess because of military establishment. I would take a democrat like Fatima Jinnah over a military dictator like Ayub Khan every time. Just because Musharaff has done some very good things does not mean Military rule is halal now.

Can you point out what Musharaf has done good for Pakistan?

 

[srh]

Can you point out what Musharaf has done good for Pakistan?

Here is what suhaib says which I believe is truth:

Pakistan economy is a complete BOOOOMING success story in the last 8 years under President Musharraf.

Forex Reserves went from $1 billion to $16 billion
Tax revenues went from $5 billion to $15 billion
FDI went from $0.7billion to $8.4 billion
Remittances went from $0.5 billion to $5 billion
GDP went from $70 billion to $140 billion, DOUBLING
GDP Growth rates went from 3% to 7% (8% before earthquake 2005)

 

[aashiqmizaaj]

I dont agree with zaid65 usually but he is absolutely right here. Pakistan is in this mess because of military establishment. I would take a democrat like Fatima Jinnah over a military dictator like Ayub Khan every time. Just because Musharaff has done some very good things does not mean Military rule is halal now.

Uh sorry the military is not alone in doing all the evil work, our 'democratically' elected officials haven't been any better. The army was not responsible for East Pakistan becoming Bangladesh. That you can lay at the feet of democratically elected Bhutto's little tantrum.

Democracy works when the public is informed and educated. Pakistan's public is neither and while zaid has made some good points about why democracy works better (accountability etc), the fact is that there's no accountability in Pakistan regardless of whether it's the military or civilian government.

Having said that a military dictator is definitely not the way to go for Pakistan but then our public isn't capable of putting the right person in power - case and point we have Mr. 12% in power.

This is not army's job to run the Steel Mill, PIA, KDA, WAPDA, sell the real estate and make billions and transfer the money into foreign accounts.

True but that's not the job of the politicians either. These institutions (some of them at least) should never have been nationalized anyways. Credit for that goes to?

 

[zaid65]

Democracy works when the public is informed and educated. Pakistan's public is neither and while zaid has made some good points about why democracy works better (accountability etc), the fact is that there's no accountability in Pakistan regardless of whether it's the military or civilian government.

Having said that a military dictator is definitely not the way to go for Pakistan but then our public isn't capable of putting the right person in power - case and point we have Mr. 12% in power.

You have raised some interesting points. No one is saying that Pakistan's democracy or Pakistani political leaders are the best and they are doing or have done a better job. But for their defense, apart from Bhutto, majority of them have never given a chance to work independently. There is always army behind the scene active and making the political deals and as soon as they have seen that person is not taking their dictation, he was thrown away and came back in power.

As I have said there are flaws in US or British democracy, so we are thousand years back in this game but that does not means, we think army is our messiah. They are not, they are corrupt, greedy and blood suckers for the poor people of the Pakistan. They are responsible for 68% of the budget of the country and they failed to do the job. The irony is, they still want to get the remaining 32% of the share by keep coming back in power. On the other hand political leaders, despite being corrupt, still manage to run the country with 32% of the resources. You do the math, who has more money to play with and who is more corrupt and enjoying with power.

 

[feather]

It seems everyone knows what they are talking about except me. Hence let me point you guys toward the right direction. Its called Sarcasm. The thread starter started a thread with a false title. Yes, its cool now days to hate on the army...the very men who will protect you but that doesn't matter anymore cause of what few generals have done.

I looked at the picture. Calm, collected and supposedly people were paying attention in the session. Since we were talking about the Assembly in session. I wished we see our national Assembly in session which is remotely close to this.

How many times does our national assembly meet? Have you seen how those animals in the assembly behave? They behave worse then 1st graders. Bunch of morons put together in the same place.

Get your facts right. I was only hoping perhaps one day we will see calm, collected educated people in our assembly. Perhaps then Pakistan would get somewhere.

For those of you who seem to think Army has done all wrong. What has the peoples government done? NOTHING. You don't need 50 years to get something right. So far this government has not done anything that is going to benefit Pakistan in the short or the long run.

Yes, Mush went horribly wrong later in his years. When he started with full control he did do many good things. He did invite companies to do business in Pakistan. Railway, electric for the first time in Pakistan history became profitable.

Mush gave us the local government. Zaid instead of wasting my time and yours...why don't you tell me how many high ranking officers in the army you know that are anti-Pakistan or pro-American. How many local government officials you know that hold their seats because the public voted for them.

The entire government structure is for sale. Forget about the big fishes you can't even become city nazim without spending few corers.

Yes, ideally we would all love to see the peoples government where the people are represented and cared for. Pakistan has really long way to go. I suggest instead of blaming others...this government and the one that will take them over obviously no less evil...try doing things which least benefit the people some how.

 

[zaid65]

I looked at the picture. Calm, collected and supposedly paying attention. Since we were I believe talking about the Assembly in session. I wished that I would love to see our national Assembly in session which is remotely close to this.
How many times does our national assembly meet? Have you seen how those animals in the assembly behave? They behave worse then 1st graders. Bunch of morons put together in the same place.

First grasp the concept that by sitting quite with nice cloths are not make you more civilized and honest. I don't know if you have ever watched the CSPAN and have to watch the US congress session, they have arguments and heating discussion. India has the world's largest democracy, they have people fight and throw away the chairs in assembly as well.

Get your facts right. I was only hoping perhaps one day we will see calm, collected educated people in our assembly. Perhaps then Pakistan would get somewhere.

You get your facts right. Country has been damaged by the corruption of army Generals more than the uneducated politicians. You want to keep your eyes closed, this is your choice, majority of the people knows this fact.

For those of you who seem to think Army has done all wrong. What has the peoples government done? NOTHING. You don't need 50 years to get something right. So far this government has not done anything that is going to benefit Pakistan in the short or the long run.

There are lot of development taken place in Pakistan and most of the work was done by the MNAs and MPAs, who were publicly nominated during the elections, which is part of the democracy. It look like you have no been to Pakistan's rural areas or went to visit major cities of Punjab. We have major highways, electricity in the villages, one of the best irrigation system in Asia for agriculture.

You tell me what choor commanders have done during the dictatorship?

Yes, Mush went horribly wrong later in his years. When he started with full control he did do many good things. He did invite companies to do business in Pakistan. Railway, electric for the first time in Pakistan history became profitable.

What was the achievement of those companies? Those companies were like East India company. They came and took away poor people's money. Yes electric become a profitable, that is why people have no electric for 8-10 hours a day.

Mush gave us the local government.

It was Ayuba Khan who us the local Govt and this local Govt has been running during all the democratic Govts as well. Please get your facts right and learn some history of the country.

..why don't you tell me how many high ranking officers in the army you know that are anti-Pakistan or pro-American. How many local government officials you know that hold their seats because the public voted for them.

Trust me, I have met quite few. One of the army General I met few years ago, came from Pakistan and bought 18 Burger Kings stores in Iowa..For your information, I have lot of family members who are still in active duty and they all are in good positions. I dont want to discuss their private life on public forum.

 

[suhaib]

a man was just recently found innocent of murder after 27 years in the uk, justice system there is just as bad as in pakistan, i wonder how many more innocents are getting tortured in europe and america.
democracy continues to fail yet some blind wallies belive in this system and want to import it in pakistan,

 

[lahori@denmark]

pakistan army is a great army in the world, some politions like za bhatto,ba bhatto,nawaz sharif and many more and religious partyies like jamaat e islami jfi brought the politic and curruption in army, they appointed and supported thier loyale army men ahead of deserving army men to get the total control in country and it back fired every time, so in politions yaa maoulwion ne joo boya tha wohi paya hai

 

[feather]

You do not need to put words in my mouth.

civilized: having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc. easy to manage or control; well organized or ordered < According to Dictionary.com

unfortunately, throwing chairs, shoes or fighting others during an assembly session is not considered civilized regardless the size of the said democracy. Having heated discussions about things that matter is not the same thing as fighting or throwing things.

Your telling me the Army has made people mentally retarded? That they do not know how to behave in an assembly session if not then your response is rather pointless. Again for the love of God know this...We have a government and it is now up to the government to show us why we should continue to persist with them.

I am not the one with my eyes closed. You like to point out the corruption of generals what about the entire government structure being corrupt. Your telling me the Army has made the peoples government corrupt why can't this be said about the Army that the peoples government has made the Army corrupt.

You have to remember regardless of how much the Army is in control...it is the government which chooses which generals to advance and which to send home packing.

I have been to Pakistan and I visit Pakistan often. I have seen all the so called development taking place. Most of the big real estate projects were passed and started under the Mush government. I have seen the good and the bad.

Pakistan is decades behind in Agriculture. We waste more water then we use. We can't farm on thousands of acres of land because of no water. You might want to recheck your statement considering Pakistan at this point is almost unware of advance agriculture or commercial farming.

* You might also want to look in the amount of effort that was made to save water under Mush rule and the work on small dams etc.

You will need to do bit of research to see why railway and power company matter. The fact that they became profitable matters lot. People were made to pay their bills. You did not have to bribe to get train seats or buy them in black. It only lasted for a little while but it did do good. 3rd party company was given a contract to fix the entire grid system in Pakistan. Only for uneducated jahil log to threaten them and being responsible for that company leaving Pakistan.

Again what has the peoples government done so the power is available to the people of Pakistan. Five years ago this wasn't happening.

What I meant was under Mush rule he gave us the local government so we can govern ourself. He held elections and brought in the local government elected by the people since he did not have his own party then. What happened? The corrupt came back in power. I consider this to be his biggest mistake.

Anyway what makes you think the generals are meant to be poor? I too have lots of family in the Pakistan arm forces. From someone being the director of ISI in the early 80's to major general about two years ago. I believe the current highest rank uncle of mine has is a brigadier.

True couple of them make a decent living and the major general when he retired was given a plot in Karachi while he already had one ISB. While I also have uncle who owns countless benz show rooms in norway/uk. While he was in the army he invested his family wealth in his brother business in the early 70's...he continued up the ranks while his brother grew the other business.

When I know dozen of high ranking officers who don't drink...aren't really millionares very pro Pakistani. It begs the question why is the entire Army being slammed by bunch of idiots when the corruption exists only to a certain level within the Army.

However when you compare that to the corruption that goes within the peoples government there is no comparision. The level of corruption that we face daily in our lives from people who clean the streets to those who sit in nice AC rooms. Corruption has become part of us and most Pakistanis are responsible for this short cuts they like to take.

Again, I would like to see the government having sessions within the national assembly all the time not once in a blue moon or months after the elections because they can't decide who to bribe how much and how to form the government with.

Maybe we can get all these morons in the government and in the opposition to gather peacefully in a single place...we might start going somewhere.

 

[srh]

The one thing I really dont like about Pakistan army is that they are involved in business side. You can see in all types of businesses Pakistan army is there whether its property-dealing, industrial, banking or heck cereal, pastry etc. Why they are doing it and who gave them the authority to get involved in these businesses? Can somebody tell me any other country whose army do this stuff? No. Its not their job. Period. No wonder Pakistan army is considered very corrupt.

 

[suhaib]

The one thing I really dont like about Pakistan army is that they are involved in business side. You can see in all types of businesses Pakistan army is there whether its property-dealing, industrial, banking or heck cereal, pastry etc. Why they are doing it and who gave them the authority to get involved in these businesses? Can somebody tell me any other country whose army do this stuff? No. Its not their job. Period. No wonder Pakistan army is considered very corrupt.

all thoses businesses profits go back into the army, pakistans army may run like a big organisation but its 1000 times better then the politians who mint money and make mills all over the world for their own bank accounts, wheater you like it or not army has worked for the country and defended the country, politians have done jack other then pile up their bank accounts, its a shame but army has even made more development projects in pakistan then politians, nearly all the water and power projects were done by the army,

 

[srh]

all thoses businesses profits go back into the army, pakistans army may run like a big organisation but its 1000 times better then the politians who mint money and make mills all over the world for their own bank accounts, wheater you like it or not army has worked for the country and defended the country, politians have done jack other then pile up their bank accounts, its a shame but army has even made more development projects in pakistan then politians, nearly all the water and power projects were done by the army,

suhaib if I am objecting against army's business operations it does not mean I am in favour of politician's businesses. We all know most of the politicians are corrupt. And people may feel Zardari is most corrupt of all of them but I think its Nawaz Shariff who is much more corrupt than Zardari. Remember his father was a lohar and now Nawaz Shariff is the richest man of Pakistan far more richer than Zardari. Some media organization should investigate him and then the real picture will come out.

But back to the point. An Army's job is to fight or prepare for the fight. Its not their job to conduct a business. The government takes care of all army's needs so there is no need for Army to get into business. When they get into business they start getting corrupt. Then they also start becoming coward as the love of money surpass the love of fight. Now Pakistan army is considered a joke in west who cannot fight the ragtag soldiers of Taliban.

 

[zaid65]

all thoses businesses profits go back into the army,

And once money goes back to army, they spend on the welfare of the people... ) )

 

[suhaib]

suhaib if I am objecting against army's business operations it does not mean I am in favour of politician's businesses. We all know most of the politicians are corrupt. And people may feel Zardari is most corrupt of all of them but I think its Nawaz Shariff who is much more corrupt than Zardari. Remember his father was a lohar and now Nawaz Shariff is the richest man of Pakistan far more richer than Zardari. Some media organization should investigate him and then the real picture will come out.

But back to the point. An Army's job is to fight or prepare for the fight. Its not their job to conduct a business. The government takes care of all army's needs so there is no need for Army to get into business. When they get into business they start getting corrupt. Then they also start becoming coward as the love of money surpass the love of fight. Now Pakistan army is considered a joke in west who cannot fight the ragtag soldiers of Taliban.

firstly, ofcourse everyone knows nawaz shirif is more corrupt then zadari when it comes to financial corruption, he maybe probably the most corrupt ever when it comes to money, but zadari would be more corrupt then him if you look at all the things, especially his murders.

and on the army, then yes ofcourse its the goverments job to fund the army and make sure they are prepared to fight there enemies, but that unfortunatly has never been done, everytime democrazy has come in, army funds have always been wiped out, when bhutto came, then when his daughter came they clearly took the army on, and now zadari has come at a time when pakistan is most threatened, what does he do he completly cuts of pakistans nuclear funds. if it wasnt for the martial laws and the money the army has made our army would be peanuts there would be no nuclear bomb and pakistan would have been run over by india ages ago, media propaganda of isi and army is just do defame them which you should now.

 

[suhaib]

And once money goes back to army, they spend on the welfare of the people... ) )

no.. they make steel mills in saudia arabia, buy apartments in park lane and manhattan and make palaces in raiwind

 

[zaid65]

I am not the one with my eyes closed. You like to point out the corruption of generals what about the entire government structure being corrupt.

Corruption is a human nature and even the politician in US are involved in corruption, but you are not going to hear army of the country is corrupt unless it is a third world country. But as I have said, there is an accountability for the politician for their corruption and they have to go to the jail and it is the army who always made the deal and brought them back and finish their cases of corruption with the name of NRO. Have you ever seen any accountability of the armed forces officers for their corruption?

If the entire Govt structure is corrupt and this is always the excuse army use to come back in power, so what they have done to eliminate this corruption. You think Shuakat Aziz was brought because he was expert in anti-corruption and all the stock exchange fraud, seeling the Steel Mill in pennies were doing his farishtey without telling him and Musharaf was totally unaware of his corruption. You think Musharaf's party chief Chaudry Shujahat was the most honest politician that Musharaf could have found in Pakistan to run the PMLQ, who are you going to blame here? Musharaf's drinking buddy in the army house Sheikh Rasheed is the best person to be affiliate and award the top ministry? What about MQM

If you answer my above question in logical way instead of going in tangential, I would be interested keeping this discussion alive, otherwise I have no interest wasting my time.

 

[srh]

no.. they make steel mills in saudia arabia, buy apartments in park lane and manhattan and make palaces in raiwind

oh man very good points. Its amazing Nawaz Shariff gets away with so much corruption. Nobody in media dare talk about his corruption. I think he has given money or favours to all major journalists for them to keep quiet about his corruption.

 

[zaid65]

I have been to Pakistan and I visit Pakistan often. I have seen all the so called development taking place. Most of the big real estate projects were passed and started under the Mush government. I have seen the good and the bad.

What is the point of starting so called big real estate projects if you could not start a single electric power plant and load shedding has become the biggest issue for the country and all the industries, which are the back bone of the economy is collapsing. And all these real estate projects were started because there is huge money involved and you don't have to guess, what were the intention of starting these projects other than making money.

Above point also point your comprehension about the developmental need of the country, this is like being impress with somebody who drive BMW but have no job.

 

[12thMan]

Pakistan National Assembly session presided by the president of the country.

I thought there was a quota for women. Is this a new image?

 

[feather]

I am not someone who likes to get personal and this has nothing to do with me being a tech here or not. You seem like a young person to me who seems to know everything. How many times have I avoided your questions and threads simply because you always seem to think you have asked some brilliant questions that can not be answered.

Your someone who presents his opinions as facts which is not acceptable. It seems anyone who disagrees with you is unaware of history...can't ask tough questions because we get our information from fox news and are blind to everything else that happens in this world. I believe things such as this are offense.

Anyway since you failed miserbly earlier that you had to reply back twice in selective portions. I will revisit the arguement again.

- Corruption is not part human nature. Your WRONG. If corruption was part of human nature...then do you not consider the generals to be human? Why is it that one set of humans can be corrupt and it is perfectly fine with you while the other group being corrupt is not kosher anymore.

- Pakistani politicians have only looted Pakistan and their people. There is no such thing as accountability for these people. Which ever party is in power will loot the country. It was the Army that brought cases against these people. It was the masses that want these people back in power and have voted them back into power.

I have not said the Army has done no wrong but hasn't the masses brought known crooks back into power. So where is the accountability? It is the government of Pakistan that prepares the budget. It is the government of Pakistan that favors certain generals over others. So the root cause of the problem again is the government. They always played part in who was in the top ranks of the army and it has back fired on them more then once. Army corruption is at much higher ranks rather then civilian or government positions.

Mush & Shuakat Aziz tried to bring investors by providing some questionable deals/offers to certain companies. Again they were auctioning off assets. This would have worked if our people were not so anti-everything outside.

No one wants to be in Pakistan because they become the targets. Hence the failure in some cases. Far as the government or Mush party is concerned. I made it very clear this was his biggest mistake. Under pressure and Mush wanting to be a good guy. He wanted to bring peoples government into power. His biggest mistake in my opinion.

He forgot the most important thing. We only vote for crooks in Pakistan. We only pick people who have looted us or will loot us in the future. Everyone who is/was corrupt came back to power? who brought them back to poweR? The people of Pakistan.

People in Pakistan are/were either with Nawaz or with bhutto at the time. Mush simply didn't have a choice so once he started compromising...he just went down the drain as well.

* It was you who mentioned the big projects in your defense of the government. I only pointed out these projects started within Mush time. It isn't the army that is building them but private businesses. If they can build 100 floor buildings my friend. I am certain they can build their own small power plants as well.

Just for your information. Mush did try to built a huge network of dams. The government provided a french company with a contract to fix the entire grid system in Pakistan only for their workers to be kidnapped and threatned. They left the contract in the middle.

Again so far you have failed to point out how the peoples government has benefitted us so far. Yes, you have pointed out the wrongs the Army has done but then again nothing to show us that we should persist with the peoples government when the people are hell bent on electing crooks to the office.

How hard is it to understand that corruption is 2nd nature to us Pakistanis. Not only those who are in the Army or politics. We are not going to get anywhere unless we fix ourselves. You take the easy route by blaming the person on the top while forgetting...the masses are corrupt themselves.

 

[Waseem]

I am not someone who likes to get personal and this has nothing to do with me being a tech here or not. You seem like a young person to me who seems to know everything. How many times have I avoided your questions and threads simply because you always seem to think you have asked some brilliant questions that can not be answered.

Your someone who presents his opinions as facts which is not acceptable. It seems anyone who disagrees with you is unaware of history...can't ask tough questions because we get our information from fox news and are blind to everything else that happens in this world. I believe things such as this are offense.

Anyway since you failed miserbly earlier that you had to reply back twice in selective portions. I will revisit the arguement again.

- Corruption is not part human nature. Your WRONG. If corruption was part of human nature...then do you not consider the generals to be human? Why is it that one set of humans can be corrupt and it is perfectly fine with you while the other group being corrupt is not kosher anymore.

- Pakistani politicians have only looted Pakistan and their people. There is no such thing as accountability for these people. Which ever party is in power will loot the country. It was the Army that brought cases against these people. It was the masses that want these people back in power and have voted them back into power.

I have not said the Army has done no wrong but hasn't the masses brought known crooks back into power. So where is the accountability? It is the government of Pakistan that prepares the budget. It is the government of Pakistan that favors certain generals over others. So the root cause of the problem again is the government. They always played part in who was in the top ranks of the army and it has back fired on them more then once. Army corruption is at much higher ranks rather then civilian or government positions.

Mush & Shuakat Aziz tried to bring investors by providing some questionable deals/offers to certain companies. Again they were auctioning off assets. This would have worked if our people were not so anti-everything outside.

No one wants to be in Pakistan because they become the targets. Hence the failure in some cases. Far as the government or Mush party is concerned. I made it very clear this was his biggest mistake. Under pressure and Mush wanting to be a good guy. He wanted to bring peoples government into power. His biggest mistake in my opinion.

He forgot the most important thing. We only vote for crooks in Pakistan. We only pick people who have looted us or will loot us in the future. Everyone who is/was corrupt came back to power? who brought them back to poweR? The people of Pakistan.

People in Pakistan are/were either with Nawaz or with bhutto at the time. Mush simply didn't have a choice so once he started compromising...he just went down the drain as well.

* It was you who mentioned the big projects in your defense of the government. I only pointed out these projects started within Mush time. It isn't the army that is building them but private businesses. If they can build 100 floor buildings my friend. I am certain they can build their own small power plants as well.

Just for your information. Mush did try to built a huge network of dams. The government provided a french company with a contract to fix the entire grid system in Pakistan only for their workers to be kidnapped and threatned. They left the contract in the middle.

Again so far you have failed to point out how the peoples government has benefitted us so far. Yes, you have pointed out the wrongs the Army has done but then again nothing to show us that we should persist with the peoples government when the people are hell bent on electing crooks to the office.

How hard is it to understand that corruption is 2nd nature to us Pakistanis. Not only those who are in the Army or politics. We are not going to get anywhere unless we fix ourselves. You take the easy route by blaming the person on the top while forgetting...the masses are corrupt themselves.

Post of the month for me on "time pass" forum.

 

[zaid65]

Corruption is not part human nature. Your WRONG.

The basic nature of all living being, human in particular, is selfishness. That selfishness is root cause of greed, fame, corrupt, respect, and comfort.

If corruption was part of human nature...then do you not consider the generals to be human? Why is it that one set of humans can be corrupt and it is perfectly fine with you while the other group being corrupt is not kosher anymore.

Where did I say that it is Kosher for the politician to be corrupt but not for the general? Please show me. All I said, despite politicians being corrupt, I ( and majority of the world) is pro democracy, because there is an accountability in democracy, while in the dictatorship, you get guard of honor after your corrupt and evil behavior.

It was you, who are defending the generals corruption by supporting them in every single line and believe it is kosher for them to be corrupt but not for the politicians.

Pakistani politicians have only looted Pakistan and their people. There is no such thing as accountability for these people. Which ever party is in power will loot the country. It was the Army that brought cases against these people. It was the masses that want these people back in power and have voted them back into power.

I agree that politicians are corrupt, never said they are angels. You are right army brought cases against them but what is the end result of these cases, does the word NRO ring the bell for you?

What was the reason for army to make the deal with PPP or Nawaz? If Musharaf would have brought justice against these corrupt people and put them in jail for the rest of the life, he would have or could have become the god for the Pakistani people. The reason people hated him, because he lied to people and was a selfish and corrupt creature, just like many other generals. You said it was people who wanted these politicians back in power, so Musharaf brought them back. Are you really that innocent or you are acting ignorant. Please help me understand this point as well.

Mush & Shuakat Aziz tried to bring investors by providing some questionable deals/offers to certain companies. Again they were auctioning off assets

I am glad that you are not a lawyer, otherwise I could feel for your clients. You cannot even defend your corrupt leaders with the word " questionable", I was expecting a better word for the defense. This word is too childish.

It isn't the army that is building them but private businesses.

You are right it was not the army who build these projects directly, but for your knowledge, majority of these projects were awarded to Musharaf's son's father in law, who has a huge company of construction. Plus, when they award the work to other companies, there is a huge kick back, without that, you cannot get the contract.

No one wants to be in Pakistan because they become the targets. Hence the failure in some cases. Far as the government or Mush party is concerned. I made it very clear this was his biggest mistake. Under pressure and Mush wanting to be a good guy. He wanted to bring peoples government into power.

He wanted to bring people in power, because at the end US Govt had too much pressure during the US election time for the democracy in Pakistan, so he tried to bring a lame democracy by making the deal with PPP, this is why he signed the NRO. Please dont be so lame by defending Musharaf by saying he wanted to have democracy in the country. Why he was sitting with Chaudries of Gujrat for last 8 years, do you think people of the country want these people in power and they are the most honest people he could associated with?

How hard is it to understand that corruption is 2nd nature to us Pakistanis. Not only those who are in the Army or politics. We are not going to get anywhere unless we fix ourselves. You take the easy route by blaming the person on the top while forgetting...the masses are corrupt themselves

Yes masses are corrupt but the person who sign the deal with these masses with the name of NRO is the biggest corrupt and the institute who back this kind of behavior is corrupt as well.
How do you feel that a person who steal 100 rupees go to jail and person who steal 100 billion get the amenity from the general with the name of NRO?



Please explain all the above points without being personal and without going in tangential.

 

[feather]

Rather then beating a dead horse lets settle this and move. Yes, the army hasn't been good to our people nor has the peoples government. I simply do not share your views of Army being the root cause of problems. I actually feel the opposite. Generals have always been favored over others. The very same generals have stabbed the very people who brought them to power. Had the right choices been made by the peoples government good honest Pakistani soldiers would have come into power.

- Corruption is NOT part of human nature nor is selfishness. Yes, there are many who are selfish but is everyone selfish in this world? Also are we so selfish to kill and loot our people without a 2nd thought. If we are electing couple of people to lead us I think we can find couple of good guys from the 160 million people.

- Ideally there is accountability in the true Islamic government as well which is not like your average democarcy. You have to remember there is accountability on paper only in real life there has never been any accountability for anyone ever in our democracy. They come they loot us and the other party comes and loots us. This has been an endless cycle. In order for democarcy to work...people have to play their part which they don't and haven't.

- Again, it was the people of Pakistan who wanted those cases to be dropped. Some never believed Mush. Atleast he kept them away. When he brought in the local government years ago. Most of their people came back to power the same old corrupt people. There was not much that could be done since the entire government again was corrupt.

- Everyone wanted "fair" elections in Pakistan. The entire world and the Pakistani people wanted BB and Nawaz to come back. Mush did do this and he did hold fair elections. Again he was no angel but some of the things...he was forced to go with the people demands.

- I do not need to protect Mush or anyone else. Questionable deals is the perfect way to describe those deals. When your auctioning off assets...they are never valued at market price. Countries around the world tend to offer some kind of kick backs for outside investors to come in....such as no tax for certain amount of years or paying very little tax. So there is more to it then meets the eye.

- If someone related to Mush has a "huge construction company" why is it that you assume that the contracts they got were illegal? You might also want to consider something else. Most of the private companies which are investing in Pakistan are real estate giants...contruction companies themselves.

I am from Jhelum and you can't built a plaza unless your paying the city nazim good amount of money. You can't even build a gas station in the city without paying someone. It brings me back to the point I made earlier "the masses are corrupt - We as people are corrupt ourselves" Yes, huge projects might have bribed the generals but remember the local government has been in place for years now...the same old corrupt people representing the people. The money goes to them for the most part.

- You need to revisit your timeline. Mush brought in the local government early in his rule. Which meant most of the corrupt were already back in power. I have already said at this point he could only compromise and went down the drain. End of his rule this is when the US pressured him to sign the NRO for "democracy" and the people of Pakistan wanted BB and Nawaz back.

The man held fair elections...what else do you expect from him? I haven't see you point something that peoples government has done.

- Since you agree the masses are corrupt why are you going after the general when he was under pressure by the masses as well to bring back these leaders. He did it in the name of democracy which you wanted. So your still stuck with couple of generals being corrupt but won't face the ground realities that the entire government structure is up for sale and corrupt.

No one has stolen more money then those within the peoples government.

Since so far you have failed to point out what is so great about the peoples government and why we should stick with them cause so far they have not done anything for the people. I don't see any reason we should continue this debate any longer. Yes, the army has done wrong...but not remotely close to what your peoples governments have done or continue to do.

 

[zaid65]

I simply do not share your views of Army being the root cause of problems. I actually feel the opposite. Generals have always been favored over others. The very same generals have stabbed the very people who brought them to power.

If the country has been ruled by the army more than the politicians in our entire history, how come you are not going to blame them for incompetency? In the time when politicians were power, army was still active behind the doors and were running the show. Army is responsible for bringing the corrupt politicians, because they will listen to them and they have their stake involve. You tell me, what was the point of making deal with Zardari for Musharaf?

In order for democarcy to work...people have to play their part which they don't and haven't.

In order for the democracy to work, it has to be given its run. In Pakistan, democracy was not given a full chance to run and has been derailed several times and it is army who has been guilty of destroying the system. If we would have democracy for next 20 years, people will throw out all the corrupt politicians in next 4 elections. The final product will be the better one, but I know it is not going to happen.

I do not need to protect Mush or anyone else. Questionable deals is the perfect way to describe those deals. When your auctioning off assets...they are never valued at market price.

In auction, the deal always awarded to the highest bidder and this is a universal rule. During Mush era, the deals were awarded to the friends as a under hand, this is not called questionable in any dictionary. Get your facts right.

I am from Jhelum and you can't built a plaza unless your paying the city nazim good amount of money. You can't even build a gas station in the city without paying someone. It brings me back to the point I made earlier "the masses are corrupt - We as people are corrupt ourselves" Yes, huge projects might have bribed the generals but remember the local government has been in place for years now...the same old corrupt people representing the people. The money goes to them for the most part.

I have never said that politicians are angels and are not corrupt but what they make or the money on their disposal is only 32% of the budget, while the people who control 68% should also be held responsible. Why you think army does not want to settle the Kashmir issue or now the new issue of Taliban, because for them this is business to make more money. This is a fact and majority of the intellects knows this, you need to open your eyes as well.

-

Again, it was the people of Pakistan who wanted those cases to be dropped. Some never believed Mush.

Are you talking about people who lives in your imagination or people who live in Pakistan? Which people want to bring Zardari back in power? Ok lets say if there are some ignorant people in the villages or in the cities were die hard fans of these people and want their leaders to come back, don't you think it was the responsibility of the Musharaf to use his brain? As I have said, I am glad you are not a lawyer, because your comprehension is quite poor.

Mush brought in the local government early in his rule. Which meant most of the corrupt were already back in power. I have already said at this point he could only compromise and went down the drain

Only weak and corrupt people make compromises. Musharaf was weak and corrupt and he had no choice except to make the deal and this is why he made the deal. Get this fact in your mind as well.

Since so far you have failed to point out what is so great about the peoples government and why we should stick with them cause so far they have not done anything for the people. I don't see any reason we should continue this debate any longer.

I have given my explanation million times but because of your poor comprehensive ability you are failed to grasp. Listen one more time, there is an accountability in democracy while there is no check and balance in dictatorship. Second thing, army's main job is to protect the borders of the country not to run the political offices or sell real estate or become the CEO of PIA, WAPD, KDA, or even run cricket affairs. If the politicians are corrupt, they should be keeping an eye on them and hold accountable, not to black mail them and make the under hand deals to share the power, which is the case in our country.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

PTI with a new policy and plan to counter PML-N

[UTUBE]MjAVlz9PPvI[/UTUBE]

 

[Syed1]

Loving how the Nooras are frothing at the mouth.

Chori ki hai tou bhuktu

 

[WebGuru]

Loving how the Nooras are frothing at the mouth.

Chori ki hai tou bhuktu

The funniest part was some noonie jyalsas in NA tried to counter it by saying gali gali main shor he imran khan chor he but PTI walas were already shouting it about NS so it backfired for noonies and gone against against them because for their own line of gali gali main shor he they were getting the reply nawaz shareef chor he )

 

[srh]

PTI with a new policy and plan to counter PML-N

[UTUBE]MjAVlz9PPvI[/UTUBE]

Does Khawaja Saad Rafiq have no fear of Allah? How can he not acknowledge that Nawaz Sharif did lie in the national assembly?

 

[Pakpak]

The funniest part was some noonie jyalsas in NA tried to counter it by saying gali gali main shor he imran khan chor he but PTI walas were already shouting it about NS so it backfired for noonies and gone against against them because for their own line of gali gali main shor he they were getting the reply nawaz shareef chor he )

This seriously made me chuckle

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Does Khawaja Saad Rafiq have no fear of Allah? How can he not acknowledge that Nawaz Sharif did lie in the national assembly?

Loyalty to Allah is just in words. In reality these people are loyal to their worldly Gods.


First they cashed dollars through family chain by being loyal to Moudoodi than upon saturation and signal they became loyal to his highness Sharif.


From being humble backgrounds 40 years back now they are part of Pakistan elite. Drive cars worth 5 million plus, have properties worth more than 100 million, have flourishing businesses all due to the blessing of the ibadat called siasat.

They were neither highly educated indivisuals nor entreprenaurs.

Fruits of concocted democracy.

 

[Syed1]

The funniest part was some noonie jyalsas in NA tried to counter it by saying gali gali main shor he imran khan chor he but PTI walas were already shouting it about NS so it backfired for noonies and gone against against them because for their own line of gali gali main shor he they were getting the reply nawaz shareef chor he )

Haha that's funny.

Reminded me my uni days when we were watching the Pak-Ind semi in the 2011 WC. The Indians were in larger number but we were louder.

They would shout "Jeetay ga bhai jeetay ga" and we would complete their sentence with "Pakistan jeetayga"


Unfortunately at the end we had to leave from patli gali

 

[Waseem]

Loyalty to Allah is just in words. In reality these people are loyal to their worldly Gods.


First they cashed dollars through family chain by being loyal to Moudoodi than upon saturation and signal they became loyal to his highness Sharif.


From being humble backgrounds 40 years back now they are part of Pakistan elite. Drive cars worth 5 million plus, have properties worth more than 100 million, have flourishing businesses all due to the blessing of the ibadat called siasat.

They were neither highly educated indivisuals nor entreprenaurs.

Fruits of concocted democracy.

Pakistani syaasat aisi ibadat hai jiska ajar dunya main hi mil jata hai

Din raat ibaadat kar k, mulk ki khidmat kar k apni steel mills bhi sona ugalti hain, dunya bhar main daulat aur mulk ki steel mill tak nahi chalti

 

[Bewal Express]

Just brilliant to see the annoying runt get humiliated.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Pakistani syaasat aisi ibadat hai jiska ajar dunya main hi mil jata hai

Din raat ibaadat kar k, mulk ki khidmat kar k apni steel mills bhi sona ugalti hain, dunya bhar main daulat aur mulk ki steel mill tak nahi chalti

16 Aanay

 

[Waseem]

Absolutely loved this phainty that Nawaz Sharif deserved after saying "parliament main Nawaz Sharif ki speech syaasi thi". Chief drabaari Kh Saad Rafiq got exactly what he deserves.

One thing i never understand "Kh Saad Rafiq's biggest criticism was Imran Khan's lawyer (Naeem Bukhari) is Musharaff's friend and standing right behind him was Musharaff's other friends like Zaid Hamid and Marvi Memon Intihan hai munafiqat ki.

 

[saeedhk]

PML-N was caught completely off-guard. The transmission was being telecast live on PTV; everyone heard the chants of 'Galli galli may shor hai, Nawaz Sharif chor hai.'