Pakistan shouldn't fast track players in Test matches

[b.lesner]

pakistan fast tracking players like imam , shadab , shaheen , hasan hasn't proved great decision as Duane olivier has played 93 fc games , Abbas played 70+ fc games before debut also yasir shah 70+ , Azhar Ali 50+ . Hence it proves you need a player who has played lot of Fc cricket for test matches. Not age wise experienced like bilal asif who has handfull of fc if there is player like Duame oliver who at 26 has played 93 fc get him in. Sadaf hussain should debut along side Abbas

 

[b.lesner]

[MENTION=136113]Barragan[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=133120]ShahidDar[/MENTION] 08 @Theo_ 14 [MENTION=133532]Ottoman[/MENTION] [MENTION=134359]Cricket lover 27[/MENTION] [MENTION=140234]DRsohail[/MENTION] [MENTION=57576]MRSN[/MENTION] [MENTION=31948]hur rizvi[/MENTION] @Saj

 

[DRsohail]

Disagree here.

 

[b.lesner]

Disagree here.

Test cricket is different ball game all together you have live examples of yasir shah , azhar Ali , Mohammad abbas , duanne olivier etc who are performing majority of performing guys are FC performers who have lot of runs and wickets fc , look at saaed ajmal i think he had 400+ domestic wickets before debut

 

[Greenstorm]

Shaheen is future ATG. He can't rust in substandard domestics. Same goes with some other fast bowlers.

 

[Madplayer]

4 wickets for fast tracked Shaheen so far.

 

[emranabbas]

Totally disagree
We have tried the experienced FC lot
And they we a lot worse

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=136113]Barragan[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=133120]ShahidDar[/MENTION] 08 @Theo_ 14 [MENTION=133532]Ottoman[/MENTION] [MENTION=134359]Cricket lover 27[/MENTION] [MENTION=140234]DRsohail[/MENTION] [MENTION=57576]MRSN[/MENTION] [MENTION=31948]hur rizvi[/MENTION] @Saj

Well it varries from player to player.


Some players have adequate skillset & temperament required for Int Cricket at a very young age.


Look at the cases of Wasim, Rabada etc.


As a pacer if you have Raw pace and you are amongst wickets in domestic you get thrown in early.

 

[b.lesner]

Well it varries from player to player.


Some players have adequate skillset & temperament required for Int Cricket at a very young age.


Look at the cases of Wasim, Rabada etc.


As a pacer if you have Raw pace and you are amongst wickets in domestic you get thrown in early.

there is no wasim akram or waqar younis in the team if you consider Shadab khan like guys

 

[b.lesner]

Shaan masood proves the point

 

[b.lesner]

Shaheen is future ATG. He can't rust in substandard domestics. Same goes with some other fast bowlers.

1 performance
how about yasir shah , Mohammad Abbas and saeed ajmal , the no. of wickets they took before getting selected

 

[b.lesner]

Totally disagree
We have tried the experienced FC lot
And they we a lot worse

Who????
sadaf hussain , tabish khan , saad ali or usman Salahuddin or Abid ali or Saud shakeel name 1 top domestic performer selected and given full chance in last 4 years of inzi apart from shan masood or Mohammad Abbas

 

[emranabbas]

Who????
sadaf hussain , tabish khan , saad ali or usman Salahuddin or Abid ali or Saud shakeel name 1 top domestic performer selected and given full chance in last 4 years of inzi apart from shan masood or Mohammad Abbas

You started your thread on an argument based on players who played most FC matches and now you switched your argument on domestic in general

Make your mind up first what you want to discuss then create a thread

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

In my experience:

It works for bowlers, but usually backfires for batsmen. Batsmen learn their art by playing a lot of cricket and batting for long. Pak do not play a lot of tests and usually on slow low wickets making it worse to develop their games. Also the pressure to do well in international cricket.

This is why Babar and Imam had a false start to their Test careers.

 

[b.lesner]

You started your thread on an argument based on players who played most FC matches and now you switched your argument on domestic in general

Make your mind up first what you want to discuss then create a thread

thats same brother guys like ajmal , yasir , abbas , Olivier played 70+ fc before first test and it shows in their performance similarly Sadaf , abid , Salahuddin , saad ali should be given chances not when they are past their prime usually that happens

 

[b.lesner]

In my experience:

It works for bowlers, but usually backfires for batsmen. Batsmen learn their art by playing a lot of cricket and batting for long. Pak do not play a lot of tests and usually on slow low wickets making it worse to develop their games. Also the pressure to do well in international cricket.

This is why Babar and Imam had a false start to their Test careers.

Babar has 1 fc century at an average of 30 before his test debut that why it took him time on verge of being dropped started performing

 

[Barragan]

I agree, but well done to Shaheen for picking up wickets in the 1st innings, however let's see how he does in the 2nd innings.

No doubt, he has potential, but he must also learn from playing FC cricket.

 

[Greenstorm]

1 performance
how about yasir shah , Mohammad Abbas and saeed ajmal , the no. of wickets they took before getting selected

I would say they were brought late. Yasir Shah bowling in tandem with Ajmal in UAE would have been a great sight. Same goes for Abbas and Sadaf, both could have played early while we were wasting time by playing Rahat and Wahab.

 

[b.lesner]

I agree, but well done to Shaheen for picking up wickets in the 1st innings, however let's see how he does in the 2nd innings.

No doubt, he has potential, but he must also learn from playing FC cricket.

we need sadaf hussain to partner M abbas in tests with shaheen and aamir as 3rd pacer also need to develop 2nd spinner along side yasir shah for UAE .

Domestic performers need to be given chance sooner rather than later I'm hopeful in seeing sadaf , abid , saad , saud etc debut soon also Salahuddin to make comeback and give proper chance before discarding

 

[b.lesner]

I would say they were brought late. Yasir Shah bowling in tandem with Ajmal in UAE would have been a great sight. Same goes for Abbas and Sadaf, both could have played early while we were wasting time by playing Rahat and Wahab.

They wouldn't be able to handle international cricket pressure unless they would have lot of situation like it in domestic . You can ask players themselves they say we learn alot in FC . Pakistan Fc isn't poor altogether there are positives aswell . Just need to have less teams like 10 teams , good ball and 6-7 grounds that are taken care of by PCB themselves

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Babar has 1 fc century at an average of 30 before his test debut that why it took him time on verge of being dropped started performing

Exactly. Instead of giving him time to play a lot and long innings we took him to the UAE where batting is totally different (learning bad habits) + the usual Pak collapses not helping. Had he been given a few FC seasons he would have had the time to learn the art of batting for sessions without the extra added pressure.

Babar was lucky that Mickey liked him otherwise most of our young batsmen usually need to make a comeback. Shan is another example of the long list.

For bowlers it's totally different and their peak starts from 21 something. Also its better for bowlers to not play too many games in the beginning.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

I agree, but well done to Shaheen for picking up wickets in the 1st innings, however let's see how he does in the 2nd innings.

No doubt, he has potential, but he must also learn from playing FC cricket.

Bowlers usually do well from the beginning, but batsmen need more time to learn batting for sessions.

 

[Greenstorm]

They wouldn't be able to handle international cricket pressure unless they would have lot of situation like it in domestic . You can ask players themselves they say we learn alot in FC . Pakistan Fc isn't poor altogether there are positives aswell . Just need to have less teams like 10 teams , good ball and 6-7 grounds that are taken care of by PCB themselves

2 seasons are more than enough for a young talented fast bowler, spinners need a bit more time. But Abbas, Sadaf and Yasir were kept in domestics for far too much time.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Well it varries from player to player.


Some players have adequate skillset & temperament required for Int Cricket at a very young age.


Look at the cases of Wasim, Rabada etc.


As a pacer if you have Raw pace and you are amongst wickets in domestic you get thrown in early.

Yet again these are bowlers. Bowlers usually do well from the start because of their natural instinct to attack which is acceptable in Tests (even liked with all the fielders up front) while the same is dangerous for batsmen who need to learn to play the ball on merit in Test cricket.

It's also why India doesn't rush in guys like Gill. While their young pacers get caps quickly.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Fast track as in put the players in the test team out of no where, I disagree with.

However, if they have shown talent in one or two seasons of first class, List A, under 19 cricket, some PSL games (to show they can deal with pressure), etc... and they are only 18 - 19 years old, get them in the team!

 

[Barragan]

Bowlers usually do well from the beginning, but batsmen need more time to learn batting for sessions.

Unless they have the skills and intellect, then they will do well without experience.

I'm not sure Shaheen is one of those bowlers and will need to learn his trade in FC.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

there is no wasim akram or waqar younis in the team if you consider Shadab khan like guys

I have not considered Shadab Khan as Wasim or Waqar in terms of ability.


Re-read my point.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Unless they have the skills and intellect, then they will do well without experience.

I'm not sure Shaheen is one of those bowlers and will need to learn his trade in FC.

Shaheen not swinging consistenly is a concern, but already looks better than some of our others. Bowers can learn quickly while batsmen really do need to bat for hours to improve their shot selection or gain confidence.

If Shaheen doesn't improve after a few series then he will get dropped, yes. But it's still too soon to say that. In general Pak bowling talents do well in their first year.

 

[Cricket lover 27]

In my opinion a player should have shown a consistent good performance in one or two seasons of domestic to be selected in the international team.
A lone or two good to great performances should not be used as a measure to induct in the national team as they usually prove unfruitful in the long run.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Yet again these are bowlers. Bowlers usually do well from the start because of their natural instinct to attack which is acceptable in Tests (even liked with all the fielders up front) while the same is dangerous for batsmen who need to learn to play the ball on merit in Test cricket.

It's also why India doesn't rush in guys like Gill. While their young pacers get caps quickly.

Well Batsmen do need more time. I agree.


Personally I would want a batsman like Gill only 1 complete FC season provided he scores against quality spinner aswell as 145+ kph pacer aswell.


But with India they have performing 3-4 batsman in national team all the time plus they are supetstars and hard to dislodge hence players have to push hard in FC Cricket unless there are some retirements around the corner.


You can count the number of FC matches Kohli had played before his Test Debut.



Knowing the standard of Pakistan FC Cricket I would like a player to Average 50 plus in two consecutive ful season's before giving him a go provided he has excelled against best FC spinner and quickest FC bowlers.


You know as a Selector that a guy is special when you see that his Average & number of tons scored in a given season are far superior than all others. For this I take you back to 2012 when Haris Sohail got picked all of a sudden. You see the numbers show that he is a level ahead of all the other batsmen ? Well He is injury prone naturally so I won't fault him but such performances push selectors even if you have limited numbers of FC tons or limited numbers of FC matches under your belt.

 

[topspin]

OP needs to realise this approach will mean young talented players will rot in domestics on poor pitches and poor coaches which will lead to more 30+ players with short term careers.

This clearly isn't sustainable and will inevitably lead to the recycling of TTFs - something which we don't need.

 

[Barragan]

Shaheen not swinging consistenly is a concern, but already looks better than some of our others. Bowers can learn quickly while batsmen really do need to bat for hours to improve their shot selection or gain confidence.

If Shaheen doesn't improve after a few series then he will get dropped, yes. But it's still too soon to say that. In general Pak bowling talents do well in their first year.

A few series?

This isn't a training ground and even Amir played domestic cricket, before debuting and he was able to learn.

Amir was way ahead of Shaheen is right now, but even he needed a season to get into intl. cricket and do his magic.

Like I said, if he had the skills and intelligence, then I wouldn't have a problem, but he doesn't.

 

[JibranAnsari]

Pakistan domestic does a good job of damaging players if anything.

 

[b.lesner]

Fast track as in put the players in the test team out of no where, I disagree with.

However, if they have shown talent in one or two seasons of first class, List A, under 19 cricket, some PSL games (to show they can deal with pressure), etc... and they are only 18 - 19 years old, get them in the team!

U-19 isn't that good now i remember in last U-19 tournament 120 was average score by teams in 3 day or 4 day matches

 

[blackanhyellow]

U-19 isn't that good now i remember in last U-19 tournament 120 was average score by teams in 3 day or 4 day matches

Didnt follow the last tournament, but in recent times Shaheen, Babar azam and a few others were under 19 players.

So there is some merit to it.

I guess it would be upto the selectors to judge who has the talent to take the next step up in international cricket.

 

[IMMY69]

Quiet the opposite.
Pick youngsters with potential and stick with them.
They’ll do far better in the long run then the tried and tested seniors.

 

[b.lesner]

OP needs to realise this approach will mean young talented players will rot in domestics on poor pitches and poor coaches which will lead to more 30+ players with short term careers.

This clearly isn't sustainable and will inevitably lead to the recycling of TTFs - something which we don't need.

how about domestic performers like Sadaf , Salahuddin , Abid , Saad , Saud etc

going by your logic Yasir shah , M Abbas , Azhar ali , Saeed ajmal rot in domestic

Also shaan masood got rot in domestic by performing there

 

[b.lesner]

Quiet the opposite.
Pick youngsters with potential and stick with them.
They’ll do far better in the long run then the tried and tested seniors.

Who said tried and tested players its talking about domestic performers yet to be given chance like sadaf , abid , saad etc

 

[Buffet]

It depends on quality of domestic as well.

 

[srh]

Well it varries from player to player.


Some players have adequate skillset & temperament required for Int Cricket at a very young age.


Look at the cases of Wasim, Rabada etc.


As a pacer if you have Raw pace and you are amongst wickets in domestic you get thrown in early.

This is a good answer. On principle I agree with OP that only select players in Tests who have lot of domestic FC experience and have excelled there. But there are always exceptions. If you have a cant miss talent (like Babar or Shaheen) then they should be fast tracked.

 

[srh]

Pakistan is missing a swing bowler like Mir Hamza who performed in domestic and A team and still was not selected for this tour. Huge blunder by Inzimam.

 

[IMMY69]

Who said tried and tested players its talking about domestic performers yet to be given chance like sadaf , abid , saad etc

Well it’s not as simple as that.
History has shown many top first class performers failing at international level.
This is not a rare occurrence either. Every league around the world has produced players with extraordinary stats but just couldn’t make it at international level...

With Pakistan, it’s even harder to judge as our FC system is pathetic.
Hopefully this will change now but so far it’s been pathectly poor and of extremely low standard with substandard wickets and balls etc etc...

So we have to place more emphasis on u-19 and u-23 cricket and then In our A Team.
This is when we get to see domestic players play against their counterparts rather then the Nephew or son in law of someone with authority...

With our system the way it is now, we have to pick good independent selectors who can spot talent and fast track them. That’s the only way.

 

[IMMY69]

Pakistan is missing a swing bowler like Mir Hamza who performed in domestic and A team and still was not selected for this tour. Huge blunder by Inzimam.

I think you’ll find that our bowlers have been doing well, it’s our batsmen who have been struggling.

 

[Sirris]

I think you’ll find that our bowlers have been doing well, it’s our batsmen who have been struggling.

We as fans have accepted that our batsmen are mediocre hence why we expect much more from our bowlers and want the to bowl out the opposition under 100 runs each and every time.

Missing Abbas big times in this match.

 

[b.lesner]

Well it’s not as simple as that.
History has shown many top first class performers failing at international level.
This is not a rare occurrence either. Every league around the world has produced players with extraordinary stats but just couldn’t make it at international level...

With Pakistan, it’s even harder to judge as our FC system is pathetic.
Hopefully this will change now but so far it’s been pathectly poor and of extremely low standard with substandard wickets and balls etc etc...

So we have to place more emphasis on u-19 and u-23 cricket and then In our A Team.
This is when we get to see domestic players play against their counterparts rather then the Nephew or son in law of someone with authority...

With our system the way it is now, we have to pick good independent selectors who can spot talent and fast track them. That’s the only way.

Duane Olivier say hi with 93 fc
You mean history has shown top performers like Abbas , Yasir , ajmal , azhar etc are all international failures

 

[IMMY69]

Duane Olivier say hi with 93 fc
You mean history has shown top performers like Abbas , Yasir , ajmal , azhar etc are all international failures

The players you mention are the exception to the rule.

I’ll take domestic performances seriously, especially with respect to Batsmen, once the entire FC structure has been changed.

 

[b.lesner]

The players you mention are the exception to the rule.

I’ll take domestic performances seriously, especially with respect to Batsmen, once the entire FC structure has been changed.

You have no argument players like Asif ali in odi and shadab khan in test gets selected because of thinking like this and its not exception 80% of performers at international level for Pakistan or any other team are domestic performers with 20% being wasim akram and waqar younis

 

[IMMY69]

You have no argument players like Asif ali in odi and shadab khan in test gets selected because of thinking like this and its not exception 80% of performers at international level for Pakistan or any other team are domestic performers with 20% being wasim akram and waqar younis

and how about players like Salman Butt, Akmal brothers, Farhat, Faisal Iqbal, Iftikhar Ahmed etc etc...

Shadab Khan, Fahim Ashraf, Hasan Ali, Fakhat Zamam have all shown talent and have all done well in patches in tests too...

Our bowling lineup is not the problem. It’s the batsmen and I would rather pick young players with good techniques...

 

[b.lesner]

and how about players like Salman Butt, Akmal brothers, Farhat, Faisal Iqbal, Iftikhar Ahmed etc etc...

Shadab Khan, Fahim Ashraf, Hasan Ali, Fakhat Zamam have all shown talent and have all done well in patches in tests too...

Our bowling lineup is not the problem. It’s the batsmen and I would rather pick young players with good techniques...

The players like butt , akmal etc debut as young player 19 and 20 you are contradiction yourself
while fakhar has average of 50 in fc before debut , fahim and hasan ali were picked on basis of domestic performance while Shadab is a clueless bowler in tests he should play 100 fc before test match comeback

 

[Azrim_91]

The truth is that Pakistan domestic structure does not prepare our cricketers to international cricket, so in the ideal world you'd introduce young players straight into international cricket surrounded by experienced performing players. The fact we are expecting the likes of babar, Shaheen, shadab to lead by example is our downfall when you have the likes of Azhar, shafiq, amir and safraz who are not consistent or do not lead by example.

I've said this before, Pakistan need to take a leaf from the golden generation of SA, after the 03 world cup, when they dropped all their dead wood and made Graeme Smith captain. Make Babar captain, back him.. and give him young fresh players to lead. Expect alot of defeats but also hope that the players build and improve. Will this happen after the 2019 world cup, I doubt it.

 

[shaaik]

The truth is that Pakistan domestic structure does not prepare our cricketers to international cricket, so in the ideal world you'd introduce young players straight into international cricket surrounded by experienced performing players. The fact we are expecting the likes of babar, Shaheen, shadab to lead by example is our downfall when you have the likes of Azhar, shafiq, amir and safraz who are not consistent or do not lead by example.

I've said this before, Pakistan need to take a leaf from the golden generation of SA, after the 03 world cup, when they dropped all their dead wood and made Graeme Smith captain. Make Babar captain, back him.. and give him young fresh players to lead. Expect alot of defeats but also hope that the players build and improve. Will this happen after the 2019 world cup, I doubt it.

We also tried this after the debacle of 2003 world cup when Amir Sohail was the chief selector. All the senior players were either made to retire or were booted out expect for Izimam and Rashid Latif and it was the right call to be made at that time. It gave us players like Omar Gul, Yasir Hameed, Salman Bhat, Asim kamal and we had a good mix of experience and youth in the team and we were doing just fine and then 2007 world cup happened and everything fell apart. I completely agree with you, the seniors need to go and we need to introduce some young blood into this otherwise dying team. I am sure the younger guys won't or can't do any worse. But, I don't quite agree with Babar being given the captaincy. He ust doesn't come across as a leader of men, he can do a better job as vice captain. If, Shaan Masood manages to cement his place in the team, he is your ideal captain but needs backing from all and sundry..

 

[Monsee]

It is not how long they have played at domestic level, as long as they have played 1-2 seasons and shown enough signs of a good mental capacity, solid technique, and skills, then they should be at least in the squad.

Being in the domestic system rots the good ones as they become unfit, lazy, develop bat habits, so-called coaches mess with their technique etc. and in a few years they becomes a shell of their former self!

 

[Hasan123]

Yes they should be fast tracked. They won’t learn anything from playing domestic cricket after a certain age. They will improve more by playing international cricket.

 

[srh]

I think you’ll find that our bowlers have been doing well, it’s our batsmen who have been struggling.

SA's 2nd inning of 1st test showed what Pakistan missed with Abbas injured and Mir Hamza not selected

 

[Markhor]

This is an interesting thread - I agree with the OP. Bowlers like Shaheen should be the exception. If fast tracking is the best method of selection, then why don't other countries do it ? The fact we fast track players into Test cricket so often is not something to be proud of but a sign of how dysfunctional our cricket is.

I hear this cliche that it's better to fast track then let players "rot in domestic" but it didn't do Mohammad Abbas, Yasir Shah, Fakhar Zaman, Saeed Ajmal, Hasan Ali, and many others any harm did it ? These guys had solid domestic records and immediately hit the ground running in international cricket. Not everyone is a Hick or Ramprakash.

For every Wasim Akram cited as proof of the success of fast tracking, I can bring up Hasan Raza, Zahid Fazal, Shadab Kabir and Saleem Elahi as guys for whom fast tracking did them no favours as they were nowhere near ready when they were thrown into international cricket.

Domestic cricket is flawed but I'd have greater confidence in someone's ability to perform at international level if they have a proven track record at FC level than somebody's "eye" and subjective opinion of their talent.

 

[b.lesner]

Yes they should be fast tracked. They won’t learn anything from playing domestic cricket after a certain age. They will improve more by playing international cricket.

Abid Ali says hi

 

[Hasan123]

Abid Ali says hi

He has done well but it is only 1 game.

 

[b.lesner]

He has done well but it is only 1 game.

Why can PSL players do it