Pakistan slips to fifth place in ICC Test Team Rankings

[Drreddymd]

That is not a true statement in may ways, that's why ranking does not make much sense in test Cricket. Better than others at home? - Better than others away or overall?? - They have not won any tough away series, they don't play any tough series at home. You can create spreadsheet and hand out numbers but that does not mean anything...Again this delusion will be over once you guys will be on road... Current ICC ranking is blinded by those facts, but we all know where is the beef

So who according to u is the no 1 team?

 

[Drreddymd]

That is not a true statement in may ways, that's why ranking does not make much sense in test Cricket. Better than others at home? - Better than others away or overall?? - They have not won any tough away series, they don't play any tough series at home. You can create spreadsheet and hand out numbers but that does not mean anything...Again this delusion will be over once you guys will be on road... Current ICC ranking is blinded by those facts, but we all know where is the beef

We were on the road recently and performed better than those teams in their homes than they are at our home.this disproves u r rant that has no meaning

 

[Cricfan4eva]

That is not a true statement in may ways, that's why ranking does not make much sense in test Cricket. Better than others at home? - Better than others away or overall?? - They have not won any tough away series, they don't play any tough series at home. You can create spreadsheet and hand out numbers but that does not mean anything...Again this delusion will be over once you guys will be on road... Current ICC ranking is blinded by those facts, but we all know where is the beef

You know I just see you complaining about how the rankings are wrong. Go ahead and tell us how do you think rankings should be ATM! Let me make it easy for you...

1. Pakistan
2.

Rank the teams that are trying to be as good as Pakistan are atm...

 

[yasir]

So who according to u is the no 1 team?

There is no no 1 team ATM... SA was last no 1 team, after that it's musical chair, if you are on road, you are down, if at home you are up...That's why its BS ranking system...

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

India is number 1.

Deservingly.

Not number 1 number 1.

But number 1.

Its not ICC rankings fault there is no number 1 number 1 team.

But yeah they need to award more points for away wins. Series in NZ or Aus or SA or Eng even if they are low ranked is very hard so a draw there should count for a lot.

 

[Drreddymd]

There is no no 1 team ATM... SA was last no 1 team, after that it's musical chair, if you are on road, you are down, if at home you are up...That's why its BS ranking system...

How can south africa be undisputable as their home record is very poor for a supposedly no 1 team

 

[yasir]

Again, you whine about the ranking system. But provide no alternative...

there can't be no no.1 team, there has to be.

Your flawed thinking is that no.1 team has to be as good as Aus or WI of the past.

If this musical chair continue even the most spreadsheet obsession fans will not care about this ranking system. You are not getting the point, ranking (if any) is suppose to be about winning tough tours not making up a number...WIs of 70/80s don't brag about their ranking but not loosing test series for 15 years anywhere in the world...Once again test cricket is not a tournament where trophy is awarded, its one series at a time, bigger one are the away series, ranking is just a side show, real meat is winning on road!!

 

[Cricfan4eva]

If this musical chair continue even the most spreadsheet obsession fans will not care about this ranking system. You are not getting the point, ranking (if any) is suppose to be about winning tough tours not making up a number...WIs of 70/80s don't brag about their ranking but not loosing test series for 15 years anywhere in the world...Once again test cricket is not a tournament where trophy is awarded, its one series at a time, bigger one are the away series, ranking is just a side show, real meat is winning on road!!

So according to you we wont have a proper no.1 until a side goes undefeated away and that annihilates team that come to their shore.

Alrightttt...

 

[yasir]

How can south africa be undisputable as their home record is very poor for a supposedly no 1 team

I am not talking about SA of today, at time of Kallis, Smith, Steyn they did not loose a away test series for 8 years, to me that was the last standout test team. After that its all musical chair...

 

[Drreddymd]

I am not talking about SA of today, at time of Kallis, Smith, Steyn they did not loose a away test series for 8 years, to me that was the last standout test team. After that its all musical chair...

That outstanding team also doesnt won any series against aus,eng at home.

 

[Tusker]

India is number 1.

Deservingly.

Not number 1 number 1.

But number 1.

Its not ICC rankings fault there is no number 1 number 1 team.

But yeah they need to award more points for away wins. Series in NZ or Aus or SA or Eng even if they are low ranked is very hard so a draw there should count for a lot.

Not all away wins are equal. Good examples are SL,Pak(in UAE) ... allthough these teams are rarely No.1 beating them in their backyard is pretty difficult (Even for Asian sides) whereas beating India in India is pretty hard even for SL no matter what our ranking is. This is why I think the rankings system has been kept simple.

 

[yasir]

That outstanding team also doesnt won any series against aus,eng at home.

But they beat both(AUS and ENG) of them at their home, which makes them overall better, not to mention not loosing series in Asia, a much bigger deal for Western teams. I am not sure what is your point??

 

[Drreddymd]

But they beat both(AUS and ENG) of them at their home, which makes them overall better, not to mention not loosing series in Asia, a much bigger deal for Western teams. I am not sure what is your point??

So being rubbish at home is ok ?they havent won any series in asia untill last year in srilanka.they were able to draw test series in india because they used to play 2 test series against us

 

[Zak_Fan]

But they beat both(AUS and ENG) of them at their home, which makes them overall better, not to mention not loosing series in Asia, a much bigger deal for Western teams. I am not sure what is your point??

They didn't play many, avoiding all the potential thrashings in Asia.

 

[Drreddymd]

So india winning in sl,pak winning in sl is also an acheivement like sa winning in aus and eng.those conditions are in no way different to sa conditions.so according to u drawing a test series in asia is what the so called undisputable no 1 team has to aspire for ?

 

[Zak_Fan]

So being rubbish at home is ok ?they havent won any series in asia untill last year in srilanka.they were able to draw test series in india because they used to play 2 test series against us

Rankings are BS not because he has a point, but because of the team that sits at top. You can't win against this argument bro.

 

[Drreddymd]

They didn't play many, avoiding all the potential thrashings in Asia.

Absolutely they used to play 2 test series against most asian teams where as india never played less than 3 match series against sa untill last tour

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Not all away wins are equal. Good examples are SL,Pak(in UAE) ... allthough these teams are rarely No.1 beating them in their backyard is pretty difficult (Even for Asian sides) whereas beating India in India is pretty hard even for SL no matter what our ranking is. This is why I think the rankings system has been kept simple.

Then incorporate asia outside asia concept too along with away points.

Just gotta find the best humanely possible system.

Icc player rankings incorporate a lot of factors.

 

[Tridibans_16]

My only issue is this.....

India is unbeatable at home but poor away. Though they won in WI, SL.: Don't deserve no.1 rank.
SA is poor at home (lost to Eng/ Aus) but good away (but lost to Ind 0-3): Definitely no.1

What logic is this

 

[Drreddymd]

My only issue is this.....

India is unbeatable at home but poor away. Though they won in WI, SL.: Don't deserve no.1 rank.
SA is poor at home (lost to Eng/ Aus) but good away (but lost to Ind 0-3): Definitely no.1

What logic is this

Dont bring logic into pre conceived notions

 

[Tusker]

Then incorporate asia outside asia concept too along with away points.

Just gotta find the best humanely possible system.

Icc player rankings incorporate a lot of factors.

Well thats what I said .... it is not as cut and dry and nearly impossible to formulate ... beating India in India has been very difficult for SL just as difficult as winning in SA/AUS ... how do you suggest they account for that? Similarly Pak winning in WI.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Well thats what I said .... it is not as cut and dry and nearly impossible to formulate ... beating India in India has been very difficult for SL just as difficult as winning in SA/AUS ... how do you suggest they account for that? Similarly Pak winning in WI.

They don't hav to account for that.

India Pakistan beating each other is a big deal just like Ashes. But you cant account for these things.

 

[soso_killer]

May be against other asain sides but not india as india came close to winning series twice in 2007 and 2011 and drawn a winnable test last time.u r not that dominant against india as u make out .

Meh... India have had it easy in SA, things will change now.

 

[Tridibans_16]

Meh... India have had it easy in SA, things will change now.

Yes. Same like how SA got easy pitches in SL/UAE whereas they should have had turners

 

[R0H1T]

Meh... India have had it easy in SA, things will change now.

The last time you made it difficult for us, Joburg 06/07 IIRC, Sreesanth happened. If it weren't for the dropped catch, of Ashwell Prince, in second test by Sachin you would've lost that games & the series as well.

So please by all means make it more difficult for us, Lord's 2014 (& 1983) is testament to what we generally do when our batting clicks & the bowlers back them up.

You seem to have an axe to grind after the "pitch doctoring" saga, what do you have to say about Faf's comments wrt negating SL's strength & giving the home team a decisive edge in the series?

 

[Drreddymd]

Meh... India have had it easy in SA, things will change now.

Bring it on.we are eagerly waiting for green mambas to be laid against us.we won both matches against u on those green pitches

 

[soso_killer]

SA avoided thrashings in Asia?
In what away? By playing two Test series?
I don't get that logic. Since 2007 SA have played 21 matches in Asia, winning 7, losing only 6. That includes the recent three against India. SA have averaged 35 runs per wicket, that's more than India.
India away from home in Asia, played 9, won 4, lost 4 at 32 runs pr wicket.
They've always managed to win a game and ending or starting the series strongly.

SA in NZ, Aus and ENG
played 19, won 10, lost 3, drawing 6 averaging 41 runs per wicket (the only side to average 40+ away)
India 35, won 5, lost 19, drawing 11 averaging 31 (which is less than what SA average in Asia).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;continent=1;continent=4;continent=5;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;host=1;host=2;host=3;host=5;orderby=won;spanmin1=1+Jan+2007;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=team

In what way is India more well rounded and better overall than SA?

 

[street cricketer]

I don't disagree, ranking is really hard thing in cricket so many factors...That's why in test Cricket you remember more how many away series and specially in tough conditions you have won then just the ranking itself...At the same token you don't forget those phants either, 12-0 losses in Aus is hard for us, winning test series in Australia is like winning 3 world cups, there is no bigger achievement in Pakistani sports... But sadly, I don't think PCB takes Auses tours as series as we do

Now you are opening more can of worms. Cricket performance is function of how often you play in certain conditions... Pakistan Plays in AUS once in 5/6 years(12 test only in 21 years), where as India once in every 2/3 years, more you play better you get, specially batsmen... If Pakistan and SA play 12/13 test like Big 3, they would feature lot better and have more well rounded teams, not to mention would have produced ATG bowlers and batsmen...For example, Pakistan started winning series in England, once our players were exposed to county cricket, in 80s/90s, we won 3 series, two of them were full series...

I don't buy the past experience argument in Australia. I can understand if it's used for a country like South Africa or England. But the wickets in Australia are possibly the flattest you'll see anywhere in the world. You don't need to win or draw the series in Australia which is difficult honestly. You don't even need to win the odd match. But when the team fails to hold for a draw on the flattest of tracks even after nearly 1-2 days are washed out, I'm afraid you can't just blame the schedule. And when it keeps repeating for more than 20 years, think there are some bigger questions to answer than just trotting out the India play more often excuse.

 

[Drreddymd]

Meh... India have had it easy in SA, things will change now.

In 2011 in first match in centurion on a greenish pitch sa won the toss and put india to bat and won the match easily.in the second test again in durban on a green pitch sa won the toss and put india to bat again.smith was laughing and giggling,darryl cullinan professed that india will be slaughtered again.india shattered those myths to beat sa easily.even the cape town was a green mamba and steyn was having a field day making fools of all batsman but sachin weathered the storm and scored150.sa were totering in their second innings for not many wuth 7 wickets down.sa escaped with a brilliant hundred from kallis and good partnership with boucher.india only got flat pitch in durban during last tour and even in wanderers first innings india made 297 and sa collapsed below 200.

What i am going to say is that india always got green pitches in southafrica and not easy pitches as u make out

 

[soso_killer]

In 2011 in first match in centurion on a greenish pitch sa won the toss and put india to bat and won the match easily.in the second test again in durban on a green pitch sa won the toss and put india to bat again.smith was laughing and giggling,darryl cullinan professed that india will be slaughtered again.india shattered those myths to beat sa easily.even the cape town was a green mamba and steyn was having a field day making fools of all batsman but sachin weathered the storm and scored150.sa were totering in their second innings for not many wuth 7 wickets down.sa escaped with a brilliant hundred from kallis and good partnership with boucher.india only got flat pitch in durban during last tour and even in wanderers first innings india made 297 and sa collapsed below 200.

What i am going to say is that india always got green pitches in southafrica and not easy pitches as u make out

Durban hasn't been green for years. The best surface i've seen from that part of the country was during the NZ series

 

[Drreddymd]

SA avoided thrashings in Asia?
In what away? By playing two Test series?
I don't get that logic. Since 2007 SA have played 21 matches in Asia, winning 7, losing only 6. That includes the recent three against India. SA have averaged 35 runs per wicket, that's more than India.
India away from home in Asia, played 9, won 4, lost 4 at 32 runs pr wicket.
They've always managed to win a game and ending or starting the series strongly.

SA in NZ, Aus and ENG
played 19, won 10, lost 3, drawing 6 averaging 41 runs per wicket (the only side to average 40+ away)
India 35, won 5, lost 19, drawing 11 averaging 31 (which is less than what SA average in Asia).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;continent=1;continent=4;continent=5;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;host=1;host=2;host=3;host=5;orderby=won;spanmin1=1+Jan+2007;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=team

In what way is India more well rounded and better overall than SA?

Boss i am never questioning u r performance away from home.i never said india is better than sa any time.what i am questioning is that sa at that time is indisputable no 1 based on their performances outside asia but their perfotmance in asia looks good because they play only 2 test series in asia and never played 3 trst series in asia at that time

 

[R0H1T]

SA avoided thrashings in Asia?
In what away? By playing two Test series?
I don't get that logic. Since 2007 SA have played 21 matches in Asia, winning 7, losing only 6. That includes the recent three against India. SA have averaged 35 runs per wicket, that's more than India.
India away from home in Asia, played 9, won 4, lost 4 at 32 runs pr wicket.
They've always managed to win a game and ending or starting the series strongly.

SA in NZ, Aus and ENG
played 19, won 10, lost 3, drawing 6 averaging 41 runs per wicket (the only side to average 40+ away)
India 35, won 5, lost 19, drawing 11 averaging 31 (which is less than what SA average in Asia).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;continent=1;continent=4;continent=5;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;host=1;host=2;host=3;host=5;orderby=won;spanmin1=1+Jan+2007;spanval1=span;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=team

In what way is India more well rounded and better overall than SA?

Who says they are, but if SA away record is exceptional (better than Aus at their peak) there home record is just as bad, in fact worse when you count the number of series losses they've suffered at the hands of Eng (mid noughties & last year) & Aus winning just about every series in SA bar Cummins' debut one.

So tell me how does that compute? If away wins give, or ought to give you more points then surely home series losses must mean (more) negative points in your kitty as well.

 

[soso_killer]

Boss i am never questioning u r performance away from home.i never said india is better than sa any time.what i am questioning is that sa at that time is indisputable no 1 based on their performances outside asia but their perfotmance in asia looks good because they play only 2 test series in asia and never played 3 trst series in asia at that time

that's all irrelevant seeing as to they've won more than they have lost. Their average runs per wicket also indicates how comfortable they were.
If anything one could counter argue that those two match series prevented SA from winning a series in the UAE or India.
SA was the only side capable of going toe to toe at that time.

 

[Drreddymd]

Durban hasn't been green for years. The best surface i've seen from that part of the country was during the NZ series

I hope u watch the highlights of that test to know whether it is a green pitch or flat pitch.if pitch is flat how come sa got all out before 200 in every innings even after batting second.sreeshant even bounced kallis out with a brute of a delivery.

Any way i have no problem in india receiving green mambas because if our bowling clicks we can easily win 1 match and i have confidence in our batting to come good in atleast two matches.my main concern is our bowling which will be tooth less in durban like track which we got last time and we have bowlers who can bowl in seamer friendly conditions

 

[soso_killer]

Who says they are, but if SA away record is exceptional (better than Aus at their peak) there home record is just as bad, in fact worse when you count the number of series losses they've suffered at the hands of Eng (mid noughties & last year) & Aus winning just about every series in SA bar Cummins' debut one.

So tell me how does that compute? If away wins give, or ought to give you more points then surely home series losses must mean (more) negative points in your kitty as well.

SA home record is far from reputable. But it also doesn't help that England tour SA once every five years. Evertime they've come to SA we've been in transition bar 2009. The two boards must agree to a return series. In 2012 SA toured England, England didn't tour back. The SA side they met in 2015 was far from the side that beat them in 2012, injuries din't help either though. Their first series win in SA was in 2004, again with SA in transition. But their luck will run out sooner or later.

The one team that has always troubled us is Australia just like we've bullied them in Australia.
They always find a way to win here. The trick is to get them here in November, not Feb/Mar during the dry season. But that's impossible.

 

[street cricketer]

As for the overall rankings, there is no standout side in world cricket atm.

India and South Africa are probably better than most sides by virtue of their team and players. India I would say are short in the pace bowling department to be a world beating side while I think South Africa have some vulnerabilities in their batting. Overall I don't think there is a clear standout side.

Any of the sides can pull ahead of the pack in the coming year or two and become that standout side.

Sri Lanka, New Zealand are in transition. I suspect Pakistan will enter that phase soon after the retirements of YK and Misbah if they decide to hang their boots any sooner. So I think India, South Africa, Australia and England all have a good chance of pulling ahead of the pack in the next year or two.

 

[Drreddymd]

SA home record is far from reputable. But it also doesn't help that England tour SA once every five years. Evertime they've come to SA we've been in transition bar 2009. The two boards must agree to a return series. In 2012 SA toured England, England didn't tour back. The SA side they met in 2015 was far from the side that beat them in 2012, injuries din't help either though. Their first series win in SA was in 2004, again with SA in transition. But their luck will run out sooner or later.

The one team that has always troubled us is Australia just like we've bullied them in Australia.
They always find a way to win here. The trick is to get them here in November, not Feb/Mar during the dry season. But that's impossible.

What i am saying is sa is not a ruthless side at home as they lost too frequently against england and australia.every team bar zim,bangladesh won a test in sa because of the green pitches u prepare making the toss a lottery and the team bats first will collapse inevitably.if sa is batting first they are also prone to collapses and thats why u will lose more matches.
we havent lost a match against srilanka in our home even withall their great players and we havent lost against nz and wi in nearly 2 decades.

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

Should be 9. 5 is too much for this pathetic team. Next year we will be whitewashed by Bangladesh in Bangladesh

You are going too much hard on pak test team. Pak (test) is not that bad either,nor bd that good.

 

[MMHS]

so we are just 1 point away from Mathews rookie Sri Lanka? [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION]

Misbah the greatest test captain myth busted before even it could start.

He isn't a great tactician - his Captaincy is like his batting, single dimensional. But, he is good in managing side under his favorable conditions. He did looked clueless in AUS, but not many PAK Captain will clean sweep AUS even on rank turners or beat ENG 5-0 in 6 Tests. He is a great ambassador to the game from PAK, but sadly became greedy & prolonged his career.

Personally, I don't give much importance to ranking as the system is flawed. If PAK plays 5+4+4+3 = 16 Tests against ENG, AUS, SAF & NZ in UAE on top of that upcoming 4 Test series in WI, this ranks will change drastically - on top of that, add IND touring ENG, NZ & AUS for 9 Tests in 6 months ...... I think, the week PAK was No. 1, SAF was probably 6th in ranking - that's just 5 months back; therefore 1st or 6th rank doesn't have much significance.

Misbah's greatest weakness is that, he is a Manager, not leader. He accomplished his task with his workers, without trying to improve their skill, neither trying to look beyond today - it's like day laborers' day to day job; otherwise no Captain will make a team such static after 6+ years in charge. If proper judgement were applied - after him, 8 to 9 of his 16 men team shouldn't be in WI trip, which indicates a big generation gap caused by nepotism & personal preference. This is anything but a Great Captaincy.

 

[Napa]

Not really, India is so far ahead because of playing 13 test at home and that too against all western teams (WI,NZ,ENG,AUS), none of them play in India well anymore...

Columbus also thought the West Indies was India, but that thinking has gone out of fashion in the modern world.

 

[Napa]

Meh... India have had it easy in SA, things will change now.

Indian batting is getting better and better, with a #9 bat scoring a century and an unbeaten triple centurion not sure of getting a place in the team next match. SA has had it easy till now, and will find things have changed the next time they play India.

 

[yasir]

I don't buy the past experience argument in Australia. I can understand if it's used for a country like South Africa or England. But the wickets in Australia are possibly the flattest you'll see anywhere in the world. You don't need to win or draw the series in Australia which is difficult honestly. You don't even need to win the odd match. But when the team fails to hold for a draw on the flattest of tracks even after nearly 1-2 days are washed out, I'm afraid you can't just blame the schedule. And when it keeps repeating for more than 20 years, think there are some bigger questions to answer than just trotting out the India play more often excuse.

You are right on those aspects. Our performance in AUS is below par and frustrating for fans...We were doing OK in 90s, 99 series Hobart test was robbed from us, that was second test, could have make up for interesting third test...In 2010, we should have won infamous Sydney test and now should have drawn MCG...It seems like when we hit those moments, all hell breaks after that, we really derail...As a fan result of those three tests frustrates us, who knows you could have done better in the third one...Its not like we are not competitive at all, but we don't standup enough on those key moments, something we are able to do everywhere else except AUS...

The other factor is our fitness, AUS grounds are hard, wickets are flat, you need to bowl, bat and field for longer period of time, fielding after couple of days, just drain us, too many 30+ players does not help...Also we need to select tall bowlers, which we never do...We really need to think through this the next time, horses for courses...If you are going to pick average bowlers, better select tall ones, short run of the mill medium pacers is just of no use, even our best Waqar and Shoiab had 45 avg...Jackson Bird had avg pace but height was key for him so is the HW...In every series AUS always had couple of tall medium pacers who takes wickets, why we cannot see that...Its like Western teams not developing front line spinner for Asia...Asian teams are not going to win unless they take 3/4 6'5" plus fast bowlers to AUS/SA, its as simple as that...Its not impossible to find, you just need to focus on that...WI won when they had 4/5 fast bowlers, 3 of them were really tall...

 

[MMHS]

I don't buy the past experience argument in Australia. I can understand if it's used for a country like South Africa or England. But the wickets in Australia are possibly the flattest you'll see anywhere in the world. You don't need to win or draw the series in Australia which is difficult honestly. You don't even need to win the odd match. But when the team fails to hold for a draw on the flattest of tracks even after nearly 1-2 days are washed out, I'm afraid you can't just blame the schedule. And when it keeps repeating for more than 20 years, think there are some bigger questions to answer than just trotting out the India play more often excuse.

I can categorically explain PAK's struggle in AUS. Before 2000s, for 30 years, apart from WI, PAK was comfortably the most competitive side in AUS - there has been a major change in PAK cricket since then ..... No, it's not County only.

If you notice, 2 sides are always fierce competitor - they'll bite it hard till their last drop of blood - AUS & SAF. Regardless of whatever teams they are putting, PAK's result is horrible against these 2 sides. Apart from skills & condition, this is ONLY because PAK players can't compete with them mentally.

These players are groomed in a system which is comfortably inferior to Dhaka League Div. 2, when it comes to competitiveness, mental stress & focus - players are just going through the motions in recent Corporate or Regional Leagues - no team concept, no development plan, no grievance from a loss - same players played last week in a corporate name; today in the name of region, in a stadium 1000km away from their city. And they are playing many more matches that one should play in a season - without much time to practice & work on their short comings in nets. It's just quantity & the players don't have any central contract, it's almost day laborer hourly paid job, hence most of them hide injury & play semi fit, which becomes chronic.

Aussies are not beating PAK in Cricket skills only - they are beating them harder psychologically. I can give several examples - take this MCG Test, 55 overs all it needed & I don't think the batting skills are so poor not to survive that prior. Take the SCG Test last time - Aussies didn't win it because of drop catches or MoYo's strategy or what [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] hints - Aussies WON it because they didn't leave the game at 68/8; they didn't leave the game when PAK was 280/3 against 127; they didn't leave the game when they were 50/8 effectively; they didn't leave the game when PAK openers put 35 in no time, chasing 177 ............. Most other teams (read Poms or IND before Ganguly's era) would have left the game in 1st morning.

In recent times, PAK's result against their serial prey NZ, has a twist in it - and that's not because Kiwis have suddenly became Aussies; rather Captains like Mac or Fleming has kept their team engaged in the contest, which PAK will always lose - even against Irish, they couldn't compete, when Ireland got a bit something to chew in their jaws, PAK simply ran away at Kingston.

The problem is only in one area - not is skills or as they say TALUNT.

 

[MRSN]

I can categorically explain PAK's struggle in AUS. Before 2000s, for 30 years, apart from WI, PAK was comfortably the most competitive side in AUS - there has been a major change in PAK cricket since then ..... No, it's not County only.

If you notice, 2 sides are always fierce competitor - they'll bite it hard till their last drop of blood - AUS & SAF. Regardless of whatever teams they are putting, PAK's result is horrible against these 2 sides. Apart from skills & condition, this is ONLY because PAK players can't compete with them mentally.

These players are groomed in a system which is comfortably inferior to Dhaka League Div. 2, when it comes to competitiveness, mental stress & focus - players are just going through the motions in recent Corporate or Regional Leagues - no team concept, no development plan, no grievance from a loss - same players played last week in a corporate name; today in the name of region, in a stadium 1000km away from their city. And they are playing many more matches that one should play in a season - without much time to practice & work on their short comings in nets. It's just quantity & the players don't have any central contract, it's almost day laborer hourly paid job, hence most of them hide injury & play semi fit, which becomes chronic.

Aussies are not beating PAK in Cricket skills only - they are beating them harder psychologically. I can give several examples - take this MCG Test, 55 overs all it needed & I don't think the batting skills are so poor not to survive that prior. Take the SCG Test last time - Aussies didn't win it because of drop catches or MoYo's strategy or what [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] hints - Aussies WON it because they didn't leave the game at 68/8; they didn't leave the game when PAK was 280/3 against 127; they didn't leave the game when they were 50/8 effectively; they didn't leave the game when PAK openers put 35 in no time, chasing 177 ............. Most other teams (read Poms or IND before Ganguly's era) would have left the game in 1st morning.

In recent times, PAK's result against their serial prey NZ, has a twist in it - and that's not because Kiwis have suddenly became Aussies; rather Captains like Mac or Fleming has kept their team engaged in the contest, which PAK will always lose - even against Irish, they couldn't compete, when Ireland got a bit something to chew in their jaws, PAK simply ran away at Kingston.

The problem is only in one area - not is skills or as they say TALUNT.

very well said. the disturbing news is we have an 80 years old chairman who has no accountability himself. Rest of PCB consists of the same guys that have been there doing nothing for past 20 years. I don't think the condition of the team or domestic structure can be revolutionized until we see change within the PCB.

Just think for a moment why SHK wants the likes of YK and Misbah to continue?So because he is not exposed when the backups he has made turn out to be inferior. He is not only doing it to save his job but most of the employees in the PCB. As long as Pakistan cricket is doing OKAY there will be no worry for people like SHK and Sethi who are dual employees of different fields at the same times. There are so many problems associated with Pakistan cricket so no one goes to improve the root cause..everyone looks for short success formula so their job is safe and secure.

 

[street cricketer]

I can categorically explain PAK's struggle in AUS. Before 2000s, for 30 years, apart from WI, PAK was comfortably the most competitive side in AUS - there has been a major change in PAK cricket since then ..... No, it's not County only.

If you notice, 2 sides are always fierce competitor - they'll bite it hard till their last drop of blood - AUS & SAF. Regardless of whatever teams they are putting, PAK's result is horrible against these 2 sides. Apart from skills & condition, this is ONLY because PAK players can't compete with them mentally.

These players are groomed in a system which is comfortably inferior to Dhaka League Div. 2, when it comes to competitiveness, mental stress & focus - players are just going through the motions in recent Corporate or Regional Leagues - no team concept, no development plan, no grievance from a loss - same players played last week in a corporate name; today in the name of region, in a stadium 1000km away from their city. And they are playing many more matches that one should play in a season - without much time to practice & work on their short comings in nets. It's just quantity & the players don't have any central contract, it's almost day laborer hourly paid job, hence most of them hide injury & play semi fit, which becomes chronic.

Aussies are not beating PAK in Cricket skills only - they are beating them harder psychologically. I can give several examples - take this MCG Test, 55 overs all it needed & I don't think the batting skills are so poor not to survive that prior. Take the SCG Test last time - Aussies didn't win it because of drop catches or MoYo's strategy or what [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] hints - Aussies WON it because they didn't leave the game at 68/8; they didn't leave the game when PAK was 280/3 against 127; they didn't leave the game when they were 50/8 effectively; they didn't leave the game when PAK openers put 35 in no time, chasing 177 ............. Most other teams (read Poms or IND before Ganguly's era) would have left the game in 1st morning.

In recent times, PAK's result against their serial prey NZ, has a twist in it - and that's not because Kiwis have suddenly became Aussies; rather Captains like Mac or Fleming has kept their team engaged in the contest, which PAK will always lose - even against Irish, they couldn't compete, when Ireland got a bit something to chew in their jaws, PAK simply ran away at Kingston.

The problem is only in one area - not is skills or as they say TALUNT.

I genuinely think the reason is something more than just cricketing skills. This Australian team had some good young players, but was still weak and very vulnerable after the home defeat to South Africa. Australia were at their most vulnerable point and if there ever was a chance of an asian side winning in Australia, it was a few weeks back. I knew winning in Australia was tough, but after seeing Pak's performance in England, I honestly believed that Pakistan had a very good chance of drawing the series in Australia and who knows, if they could've nicked the day night test amd drawn the other two, they could've even had a historic series victory in Australia. Pakistan are vulnerable against lateral movement but generally play well on pitches with true bounce and I thought they might do very well in Australia and their batsmen would relish the conditions there.

But what I saw was something more than a lack of cricketing skills. Pakistan are poor in batting out a final day and I've seen that in other places but they definitely should have drawn both the MCG and SCG tests, especially with all the rain interruptions. I don't think they are as poor as they batted in the last 2 days in Australia at Melbourne and Sydney. Their batsmen are all temperamentally good and can play attritional cricket for hours at a very slow rate. But they way they started playing reckless shots while trying to save a game like Hafeez did at Edgbaston on the 5th day was mind boggling to say the least. Experienced batsmen like Younis and Misbah were playing reckless shots while Yasir showed more resistance than the more celebrated batsmen. Only Azhar Ali came out of the tour with his reputation enhanced and fair play to him, he fought tooth and nail to save the tests and didn't choke under pressure. And I'm sure these batsmen wouldn't have played those shots if it wasn't the last day of the test. All that tells me that Australia have got a psychological stranglehold over Pakistan and the latter are in a mental rut against Australia in Australia. This needs a mental conditioning coach than anything else.

 

[Tusker]

I can categorically explain PAK's struggle in AUS. Before 2000s, for 30 years, apart from WI, PAK was comfortably the most competitive side in AUS - there has been a major change in PAK cricket since then ..... No, it's not County only.

Has to be England after WI. And there is not much difference between Ind and Pak in terms of Matches won In Aus but we have certainly drawn more than Pak and came this close to winning the series in 1985/6 but for biased umpiring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdgfjMB8OgQ

And we also won the 1985 B&H World Championship fair and square winning all matches

If you notice, 2 sides are always fierce competitor - they'll bite it hard till their last drop of blood - AUS & SAF. Regardless of whatever teams they are putting,

Not in India ... Times have changed now ... this is not 1970

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

No matter how bad south africa are at home none of the asian teams have managed to win a series against them there.

 

[MMHS]

Has to be England after WI. And there is not much difference between Ind and Pak in terms of Matches won In Aus but we have certainly drawn more than Pak and came this close to winning the series in 1985/6 but for biased umpiring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdgfjMB8OgQ

And we also won the 1985 B&H World Championship fair and square winning all matches



Not in India ... Times have changed now ... this is not 1970

No, It's Pakistan after WI from 1975 to 1999 -

Made every Test Series competitive, including the 1983-84 one without Imran.
Won WC in 1992, made Final of that B&H WSC in 1985
Made Perth challenge Final over WI & AUS 1987
Won WSC in 1997
Made WSC Final in 1990, failed to make the final in 1981 with points tied with AUS, but, they they could get away with a fraction of better RR, because of playing last 2 matches.


Agreed with the last part, with a little correction - 2004, instead of 1970 (as if all that matches were before 1970s while 80s/90s doesn't exist . As far I know, a far better & experienced Indian side lost at home 4-2 in ODI after 2-0 lead & failed to save the Bangalore Test on Day 5 ........ against Sami, Rana Naved, Afridi & Kaneria ........... I am not even bothering to mention 1999 tour ..... India lost at Eden after having PAK 25/6 at first drinks...............

 

[MMHS]

I genuinely think the reason is something more than just cricketing skills. This Australian team had some good young players, but was still weak and very vulnerable after the home defeat to South Africa. Australia were at their most vulnerable point and if there ever was a chance of an asian side winning in Australia, it was a few weeks back. I knew winning in Australia was tough, but after seeing Pak's performance in England, I honestly believed that Pakistan had a very good chance of drawing the series in Australia and who knows, if they could've nicked the day night test amd drawn the other two, they could've even had a historic series victory in Australia. Pakistan are vulnerable against lateral movement but generally play well on pitches with true bounce and I thought they might do very well in Australia and their batsmen would relish the conditions there.

But what I saw was something more than a lack of cricketing skills. Pakistan are poor in batting out a final day and I've seen that in other places but they definitely should have drawn both the MCG and SCG tests, especially with all the rain interruptions. I don't think they are as poor as they batted in the last 2 days in Australia at Melbourne and Sydney. Their batsmen are all temperamentally good and can play attritional cricket for hours at a very slow rate. But they way they started playing reckless shots while trying to save a game like Hafeez did at Edgbaston on the 5th day was mind boggling to say the least. Experienced batsmen like Younis and Misbah were playing reckless shots while Yasir showed more resistance than the more celebrated batsmen. Only Azhar Ali came out of the tour with his reputation enhanced and fair play to him, he fought tooth and nail to save the tests and didn't choke under pressure. And I'm sure these batsmen wouldn't have played those shots if it wasn't the last day of the test. All that tells me that Australia have got a psychological stranglehold over Pakistan and the latter are in a mental rut against Australia in Australia. This needs a mental conditioning coach than anything else.

Mental conditioning can help somewhat, but it won't help much. Leave AUS, PAK has lost several matches against SAF becaue of the batting of Pollock, Boucher, Symcox, Boje ..... even Robin Peterson, after getting better of Kallis, Smith, Kristen, AB, Amla or Cullinan. Tough, bad a$$ players who'll not throw the towel & made sure that PAK is in the game - bowling tight & taking catches, instead of waiting for the tail to gift wicket. Similarly, while chasing, several times I have seen PAK folding to SAF for last 5/6 wickets going down for 60/50 .... even 20 - that's because SAF will never allow a gift boundary, never will drop a sitter, never will miss a run out with a wrong call & they'll never allow you to relax, even when 10 is required in 5 overs with 5 wickets at hand.

These are matches that you don't lose for skills, neither for experience - these are matches where you have to count every ball & think every moment. And, this against every thinking Captain of any team - take your pick - Tubby, Arjuna, MSD, Ganguly, Clarke, Fleming, Mac........

In fact, PAK's performance is probably best against Steve's AUS; should have won the Hobart Test, won a WC match, won an ODI series in AUS & almost won a Test at Colombo - that's because, since 1900 (that's from Monty Noble, Clem Hill, Victor Trupmer, Armstrong, Herbi Taylor, Bardsley, Bradman, Hasset, Johnston, Benaud, Simpson, Lawry, Ian, Greg, Hughes, AB, Tubby, Steve, Ponting, Clarke, Smith - compared to this list, when I think Misbah taking PAK to AUS or next time Azhar will take ..... ), Steve Waugh was the most ordinary AUS Captain, when it comes to tactics.

 

[Tusker]

No, It's Pakistan after WI from 1975 to 1999 -

Made every Test Series competitive, including the 1983-84 one without Imran.
Won WC in 1992, made Final of that B&H WSC in 1985
Made Perth challenge Final over WI & AUS 1987
Won WSC in 1997
Made WSC Final in 1990, failed to make the final in 1981 with points tied with AUS, but, they they could get away with a fraction of better RR, because of playing last 2 matches.

Beg to disagree ... Eng won 3 Series outright in Aus between 1970 and 2000 compared to Zero by Pakistan. And India is the only Asian Team that came extremely close to winning a series in Aus ( See Clip in my previous post)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...team=7;template=results;type=team;view=series

Agreed with the last part, with a little correction - 2004, instead of 1970 (as if all that matches were before 1970s while 80s/90s doesn't exist .

Not sure what you mean by that

As far I know, a far better & experienced Indian side lost at home 4-2 in ODI after 2-0 lead

That side is certainly not better than the current sides lead by MSD and similarly Pak lost to India in Pak (again not sure whats the point)

& failed to save the Bangalore Test on Day 5 ........ against Sami, Rana Naved, Afridi & Kaneria ........... I am not even bothering to mention 1999 tour ..... India lost at Eden after having PAK 25/6 at first drinks...............

And I can list a whole lot many such incidents for many teams ... not sure what it proves. Are you trying to say that India is not all that great at home or surely not the India pakistan sey darta hai nonsense ?

 

[MMHS]

Beg to disagree ... Eng won 3 Series outright in Aus between 1970 and 2000 compared to Zero by Pakistan. And India is the only Asian Team that came extremely close to winning a series in Aus ( See Clip in my previous post)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...team=7;template=results;type=team;view=series



Not sure what you mean by that



That side is certainly not better than the current sides lead by MSD and similarly Pak lost to India in Pak (again not sure whats the point)



And I can list a whole lot many such incidents for many teams ... not sure what it proves. Are you trying to say that India is not all that great at home or surely not the India pakistan sey darta hai nonsense ?

I said the opposite - PAK got away with IND in many cases, because they were competing with similar mentality players. You tried to say that IND is now Sher, since 1970; was meek before 1970 - I just had my reservation between 1970 & 2004.

Regarding the AUS tour - you have to listen to Ian Chappell or Richie Benaud for that. Regarding the 1986 tour, I was a kid in AUS then - one of the weakest ever AUS side, which managed to lose a Series against Kiwis - it was actually under performance by IND that, AUS managed to end the 1986-87 Series 0-0 in India. You can check the archives of the then Sportstar & Sports week regarding that series.

For the ENG tour, it actually exposes you a bit - ENG won the Ashes in 1970, then 1987, against the same AUS side. In between that 1978 Ashes was against Packer reject AUS that Brearley won 5-1. But, apart from that, whenever they took big boys of Aussies it was 4-1 (stone dead 5-0 was written, 6th Test Thompson missed & Lillie got injured after 2/3 overs), 3-0 in 1979, 3-1 in 1982 & 4-1 in in 1992.

 

[Tusker]

I said the opposite - PAK got away with IND in many cases, because they were competing with similar mentality players. You tried to say that IND is now Sher, since 1970; was pu$$y before 1970 - I just had my reservation between 1970 & 2004.

Let me clarify my views on what I consider to be a puerile topic ... No team (including Bangladesh) is meek or deserves to be stereotyped that way. I realize that silly bravado and being Macho(now stupid) was in vogue back in those days and Indian cricketers didn't have that type of personalities but don't EVER equate soft spoken behavior to meek or a yob to a "Sher" otherwise you will be mistaking someone like Anil Kumble to be meek. I can assure you that you will be sorry!

Regarding the AUS tour - you have to listen to Ian Chappell or Richie Benaud for that. Regarding the 1986 tour, I was a kid in AUS then - one of the weakest ever AUS side, which managed to lose a Series against Kiwis - it was actually under performance by IND that, AUS managed to end the 1986-87 Series 0-0 in India. You can check the archives of the then Sportstar & Sports week regarding that series.

For the ENG tour, it actually exposes you a bit - ENG won the Ashes in 1970, then 1987, against the same AUS side. In between that 1978 Ashes was against Packer reject AUS that Brearley won 5-1. But, apart from that, whenever they took big boys of Aussies it was 4-1 (stone dead 5-0 was written, 6th Test Thompson missed & Lillie got injured after 2/3 overs), 3-0 in 1979, 3-1 in 1982 & 4-1 in in 1992.

See when you make blanket statements like "30 Yrs before 2000 ...." and someone responds with facts to disprove ... you cannot do cherry picking and claim that you were still correct. Shall we also discard the 1992 World Cup win then on exactly the same grounds ?

My views on Aussie tours is that in the past Asian teams suffered massively from diabolical umpiring. Even with DRS you will see marginal crucial decisions go against us but it is soooo much more level playing field now than ever before. For this reason alone I do not take past losses against Aus very seriously. One of the most biased nations ever even their commentators are soo overtly biased its not funny.

 

[MMHS]

Let me clarify my views on what I consider to be a puerile topic ... No team (including Bangladesh) is meek or deserves to be stereotyped that way. I realize that silly bravado and being Macho(now stupid) was in vogue back in those days and Indian cricketers didn't have that type of personalities but don't EVER equate soft spoken behavior to meek or a yob to a "Sher" otherwise you will be mistaking someone like Anil Kumble to be meek. I can assure you that you will be sorry!





See when you make blanket statements like "30 Yrs before 2000 ...." and someone responds with facts to disprove ... you cannot do cherry picking and claim that you were still correct. Shall we also discard the 1992 World Cup win then on exactly the same grounds ?

My views on Aussie tours is that in the past Asian teams suffered massively from diabolical umpiring. Even with DRS you will see marginal crucial decisions go against us but it is soooo much more level playing field now than ever before. For this reason alone I do not take past losses against Aus very seriously. One of the most biased nations ever even their commentators are soo overtly biased its not funny.

Your problem is you jumped into something without reading my initial post or not understanding the context. For example, the WC 1992 example came because you mentioned first about the 1985 B&H WSC, which for your information was a multi team tournament - I leave it for you for your pick about WC 1992 & B&H Cup 1985, shall we? Regarding 30 years comments, it shows your immaturity - that 1970-71 Ashes ended in Jan 1971, may be I should have mentioned, 29 years & 11 months ....

Regarding ENG's performance, those two (ENG - VS IND/PAK), can be compared only by those who watch cricket on a scorecard. ENG tours AUS for 5/6 Tests, that too starting the tour in mid to late OCT, before playing the 1st Test at Gabba in last week of November & last Test in mid of January. Still, most cases, few Tests that they have won against top AUS sides often are dead rubbers. For your satisfaction, I actually think that in last 40-45 years, IND is comparatively more successful than Poms in AUS - if IND/PAK regularly tours AUS for 5 Tests in every 4 years, with 2 months preparation, they'll do much, much better than what ENG has managed. And yes, I personally have written many times that two of the worst umpiring Series that I have seen is IND/PAK tours of AUS in 1991-92 & 1990 - that's only value addition from your post that I can care for.

Now for the first part, I don't think anyone here thinks Indian players were afraid to take PAK, rather you are the one who believes it & hence, you are the only poster I have noticed to mention it time & again. It's your inferiority complex that gets better of you to judge what is banter/leg pulling, and what's sports rivalry. Not even the craziest PAK fan would think that Sunny was afraid of Imran or Kapil was scared to bowl at Zaheer; but now I am not sure about one Indian at least. Grow up, in any sports, no team fears or intimidated by others physical structure - Neither Indian players of 80s or 70s were soft. Do some study on Kapil or Bedi or Venkatraghaban, Vishi, Jimmi Amarnath or Tiger Pataudi, you should learn that.

In recent times, I see lots of bullish comments from you regarding this generation, which was born about 14 months back - during India's run of 20 Test at home & in WI - you try to bring that in every post, without caring if it's appropriate or not. I hope, we'll be blogging still when IND starts their tours - 5 in ENG, 4 in AUS, 4 in SAF & 3 in NZ.

P.S.: Can anyone explain this gentleman regarding my initial post - what was the moral of the story. I'll not change my flag to make someone understand some basics of what is mentally stressing an opponent in a game & what is called allowing to get out of jail.

 

[Tusker]

Your problem is you jumped into something without reading my initial post or not understanding the context. For example, the WC 1992 example came because you mentioned first about the 1985 B&H WSC, which for your information was a multi team tournament - I leave it for you for your pick about WC 1992 & B&H Cup 1985, shall we? Regarding 30 years comments, it shows your immaturity - that 1970-71 Ashes ended in Jan 1971, may be I should have mentioned, 29 years & 11 months ....

not sure what context you are referring to because you have like one unrelated post in this thread before I first quoted your post#126. And I included ODI's because your post certainly includes a reference to ODIs when you mention Ireland. And Iam going to ignore the jibes. while it is very easy to respond and escalate but i would rather try and make a meaningful conversation.

Also I was mainly commenting about your opinion that Pak was next only to WI in Aus. Not sure what context has anything to do with responding to that point.

Regarding ENG's performance, those two (ENG - VS IND/PAK), can be compared only by those who watch cricket on a scorecard. ENG tours AUS for 5/6 Tests, that too starting the tour in mid to late OCT, before playing the 1st Test at Gabba in last week of November & last Test in mid of January. Still, most cases, few Tests that they have won against top AUS sides often are dead rubbers.

Pretty sure Eng won a few live games ..... while they do play a lot more cricket in Aus I don't think it will make much of a difference to Asian cricketers. Getting used to seam and bounce is very hard and then there is the atrocious umpiring. Too many odds to overcome.

For your satisfaction, I actually think that in last 40-45 years, IND is comparatively more successful than Poms in AUS -

Naah that isnt true .... sure we have had some great moments here and there but you cant ignore the fact that Eng have managed to win a Test Series there outright just recently.

they'll do much, much better than what ENG has managed. And yes, I personally have written many times that two of the worst umpiring Series that I have seen is IND/PAK tours of AUS in 1991-92 & 1990 - that's only value addition from your post that I can care for.

Yay you agree with me on something ... lol ... But 2008 Aus v Ind series takes the cake ... (Bucknor got fired after that )

Now for the first part, I don't think anyone here thinks Indian players were afraid to take PAK, rather you are the one who believes it & hence, you are the only poster I have noticed to mention it time & again. It's your inferiority complex that gets better of you to judge what is banter/leg pulling, and what's sports rivalry. Not even the craziest PAK fan would think that Sunny was afraid of Imran or Kapil was scared to bowl at Zaheer; but now I am not sure about one Indian at least. Grow up, in any sports, no team fears or intimidated by others physical structure -

Beg to disagree here .... I can show you plenty of posts by reputed posters to the contrary ... but I don't take them personally like you claim. On the contrary I love to read such jingoistic comments ... makes for some interesting conversations and readings when their views and deeply prejudiced stereotypes don't exactly pan out (to put it very mildly ).

Neither Indian players of 80s or 70s were soft. Do some study on Kapil or Bedi or Venkatraghaban, Vishi, Jimmi Amarnath or Tiger Pataudi, you should learn that.

Again ignoring the jibes ... Thanks for the advice I will say this : I know my cricket and not here to do a pissing contest on who knows more cricket.

In recent times, I see lots of bullish comments from you regarding this generation, which was born about 14 months back - during India's run of 20 Test at home & in WI - you try to bring that in every post, without caring if it's appropriate or not. I hope, we'll be blogging still when IND starts their tours - 5 in ENG, 4 in AUS, 4 in SAF & 3 in NZ.

I would like to see these supposedly bullish comments .... and where have I bought that up ?

P.S.: Can anyone explain this gentleman regarding my initial post - what was the moral of the story. I'll not change my flag to make someone understand some basics of what is mentally stressing an opponent in a game & what is called allowing to get out of jail.

change flag ? Moral of the Story ? take it easy ... you are reading too much into it.

 

[moghul]

Hard to believe there are few teams even worst than ours, at least in ranking. So there is still room far falling further, lets keep Misbah.

 

[Drreddymd]

Your problem is you jumped into something without reading my initial post or not understanding the context. For example, the WC 1992 example came because you mentioned first about the 1985 B&H WSC, which for your information was a multi team tournament - I leave it for you for your pick about WC 1992 & B&H Cup 1985, shall we? Regarding 30 years comments, it shows your immaturity - that 1970-71 Ashes ended in Jan 1971, may be I should have mentioned, 29 years & 11 months ....

Regarding ENG's performance, those two (ENG - VS IND/PAK), can be compared only by those who watch cricket on a scorecard. ENG tours AUS for 5/6 Tests, that too starting the tour in mid to late OCT, before playing the 1st Test at Gabba in last week of November & last Test in mid of January. Still, most cases, few Tests that they have won against top AUS sides often are dead rubbers. For your satisfaction, I actually think that in last 40-45 years, IND is comparatively more successful than Poms in AUS - if IND/PAK regularly tours AUS for 5 Tests in every 4 years, with 2 months preparation, they'll do much, much better than what ENG has managed. And yes, I personally have written many times that two of the worst umpiring Series that I have seen is IND/PAK tours of AUS in 1991-92 & 1990 - that's only value addition from your post that I can care for.

Now for the first part, I don't think anyone here thinks Indian players were afraid to take PAK, rather you are the one who believes it & hence, you are the only poster I have noticed to mention it time & again. It's your inferiority complex that gets better of you to judge what is banter/leg pulling, and what's sports rivalry. Not even the craziest PAK fan would think that Sunny was afraid of Imran or Kapil was scared to bowl at Zaheer; but now I am not sure about one Indian at least. Grow up, in any sports, no team fears or intimidated by others physical structure - Neither Indian players of 80s or 70s were soft. Do some study on Kapil or Bedi or Venkatraghaban, Vishi, Jimmi Amarnath or Tiger Pataudi, you should learn that.

In recent times, I see lots of bullish comments from you regarding this generation, which was born about 14 months back - during India's run of 20 Test at home & in WI - you try to bring that in every post, without caring if it's appropriate or not. I hope, we'll be blogging still when IND starts their tours - 5 in ENG, 4 in AUS, 4 in SAF & 3 in NZ.

P.S.: Can anyone explain this gentleman regarding my initial post - what was the moral of the story. I'll not change my flag to make someone understand some basics of what is mentally stressing an opponent in a game & what is called allowing to get out of jail.

So when he proved u wrong with facts like england and india has better records than pak u went on to blabber about some thing which has nothing to do what he said.what happens to the mentally strong players become pussies in aus and what makes mentally weak players of ind to perform above their weight.u can blabber all u want about pak as much as u wany but dont bring india into contexts which u dont know anything off

 

[Drreddymd]

No, It's Pakistan after WI from 1975 to 1999 -

Made every Test Series competitive, including the 1983-84 one without Imran.
Won WC in 1992, made Final of that B&H WSC in 1985
Made Perth challenge Final over WI & AUS 1987
Won WSC in 1997
Made WSC Final in 1990, failed to make the final in 1981 with points tied with AUS, but, they they could get away with a fraction of better RR, because of playing last 2 matches.


Agreed with the last part, with a little correction - 2004, instead of 1970 (as if all that matches were before 1970s while 80s/90s doesn't exist . As far I know, a far better & experienced Indian side lost at home 4-2 in ODI after 2-0 lead & failed to save the Bangalore Test on Day 5 ........ against Sami, Rana Naved, Afridi & Kaneria ........... I am not even bothering to mention 1999 tour ..... India lost at Eden after having PAK 25/6 at first drinks...............

So what psk lost 2:0 in pak and lost both one day series 3:2 and 4:1 .what has ind vs pak got to do with their performance in australia.are u sane? What are u blabbering about

 

[Drreddymd]

So what psk lost 2:0 in pak and lost both one day series 3:2 and 4:1 .what has ind vs pak got to do with their performance in australia.are u sane? What are u blabbering about

So for all the bravado pak csn muster againdt india they won one series against india in 1987 that to 1:0 in a 5 match series .inf won in pak 2:1 in a 3 test match series.the results between ind and pak tests show nothing of the bravado u r speaking of.

 

[EliteCynical]

Hard to believe there are few teams even worst than ours, at least in ranking. So there is still room far falling further, lets keep Misbah.

Actually after the England tour, I was reading posts about how Pak is the best team in the world & Yasir, the best bowler etc. The thing is that Pakistan is highly mercurial, so a performance like that of England should be taken with caution, along with elation. Similarly all is not lost after the Aus tour. It cannot get worse than this, so as fans, you should see an upward curve.