Pakistan v England | 4th T20I | NSK | 25 September 2022 | Pre-Match Discussion

[MenInG]

So what happens now?

Surely changes need to be made? We cannot give away 200+ and then hope the batters can fashion a miracle?

 

[Marooned]

Mentally the players need a shift.

They need to come out of openers or bust mentality. Every single batsman should believe in themselves and show the kind of hunger Babar Rizwan have shown. You are in the team not just to make up numbers but the middle order batsmen, the whole lot of them look like fish out of water whenever they come to bat.

Their confidence is low and that is the 1st thing that should change.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Pakistani middle order will struggle really hard in Australia.

90mph back of length, teams know how to get rid of them!

 

[IAJ]

Embarrasing to see England both bat and bowl better in these conditions.

In two matches bowlers have given away more than 400 runs, that over 10 runs/over. This is not acceptable at all.

But credit goes to English batsmen who just destroyed the bowlers today.

England are fielding a second string team, I think we would have competed better against their first team to be honest. These new set of batsmen show no respect and start hitting from ball 1.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Can't play spin, can't play pace, can't score from 1 down onwards, can't keep inexperienced opposition from hitting sixes.

Outside the field, can't fill a commentary panel with competent people either.

It's all going a bit pear shaped here.

 

[IAJ]

Mentally the players need a shift.

They need to come out of openers or bust mentality. Every single batsman should believe in themselves and show the kind of hunger Babar Rizwan have shown. You are in the team not just to make up numbers but the middle order batsmen, the whole lot of them look like fish out of water whenever they come to bat.

Their confidence is low and that is the 1st thing that should change.

That is a good point, but you need proper proper techinque and cricketing shots in your repertoire and we don't have that kind of players.

Both teams hit 6 sixes each, but England hit 27 fours whereas Pakistan managed only 11. And we mostly hit the 6s against Rasheed and Ali who are not in good form.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

This is the best possible test before world cup for Pakistan. Playing against England and testing their strengths and weaknesses. It is upto Pakistan's TM to learn from this and not repeat these mistakes in the World Cup. They lost the match but found a new batsman in Shan Masood.

 

[PakEngFan]

We need to get rid of usman in both games he comes on to ball and completely releases whatever pressure is created. If Shadab is fit then play him.

 

[NeVerMind]

This is the best possible test before world cup for Pakistan. Playing against England and testing their strengths and weaknesses. It is upto Pakistan's TM to learn from this and not repeat these mistakes in the World Cup. They lost the match but found a new batsman in Shan Masood.

Problem is that we need to find 3 other batsmen to replace Chacha, Happy Heart and Haider and that ain't going to happen...

 

[mon858]

Problem is that we need to find 3 other batsmen to replace Chacha, Happy Heart and Haider and that ain't going to happen...

they can try Saim Ayub and Asif Ali, and then Shadab can be promoted once back.

 

[asadee]

Its unfair to club Haider with Ifti Khush and Asif

 

[hitthestump]

Can't play spin, can't play pace, can't score from 1 down onwards, can't keep inexperienced opposition from hitting sixes.

Outside the field, can't fill a commentary panel with competent people either.

It's all going a bit pear shaped here.

The reality of Pakistan's team is finally being exposed here.

We are incredibly average but for Babar, Rizwan and Shaheen.

Without those three we are associate nation level.

 

[Markhor]

Was at work today so mercifully didn't see the carnage today. However it confirmed my fears about our attack which bar Nawaz, nobody has an ER of below 8 in T20Is.

Defensive bowling skills are crucial in this format, and sadly it appears despite playing with and against many of these English batters in PSL, we seem unable to restrict them.

 

[hitthestump]

they can try Saim Ayub and Asif Ali, and then Shadab can be promoted once back.

We are literally just going round in circles. Throwing Ayub under the bus too isn't going to help anyone.

If someone has Malik's number they should see what he's up to. While they're at it might be a good idea to get Ramiz on his hands and knees to see if Hafeez wants to come out of retirement.

 

[hitthestump]

Was at work today so mercifully didn't see the carnage today. However it confirmed my fears about our attack which bar Nawaz, nobody has an ER of below 8 in T20Is.

Defensive bowling skills are crucial in this format, and sadly it appears despite playing with and against many of these English batters in PSL, we seem unable to restrict them.

Agreed. It's a shame Imad rubs people up the wrong way because he should absolutely be in the squad.

 

[Energy]

We need to get rid of usman in both games he comes on to ball and completely releases whatever pressure is created. If Shadab is fit then play him.

Agree with this, and noted it too. Despite the wickets he's going to get spanked 10rpo every game.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Babar and Rizwan must rest for next game.

 

[Rana]

England resting their gun openers whilst ours will never rest and just want to occupy the crease for as long as they can

 

[Dr_Bassim]

They wont rest even if Pakistan plays Uganda.

Because if someone else wins the game, the myth will be busted that Babar Rizwan playing slowly at top is essential for Pakistan to win.

 

[NeVerMind]

They wont rest even if Pakistan plays Uganda.

Because if someone else wins the game, the myth will be busted that Babar Rizwan playing slowly at top is essential for Pakistan to win.

Nobody else will win the game...in over 80 innings, only one 50 between Chacha, Asif and Happy Heart...

If they rest Babar and Riz, not that I am advocating they should play every match (I wanted Shaan and Haider to open the innings), we will not cross 120 runs... I had a look again at that T20 match against Zimbabwe where we couldn't chase 119 and it is a sorry read...Riz failed, Babar top scored at a run a ball 40 odd and the rest folded like a pack of cards...

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Nobody else will win the game...in over 80 innings, only one 50 between Chacha, Asif and Happy Heart...

If they rest Babar and Riz, not that I am advocating they should play every match (I wanted Shaan and Haider to open the innings), we will not cross 120 runs... I had a look again at that T20 match against Zimbabwe where we couldn't chase 119 and it is a sorry read...Riz failed, Babar top scored at a run a ball 40 odd and the rest folded like a pack of cards...

Too small sample size.

Give them remaining 5 games and ask Babar and Rizwan to sit out.

At least make a sample size 5 to 7 games instead of playing the FAMED DUO every game.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Some changes need to be made to the bowling lineup for sure. Fast bowling seems a bit one dimensional. Maybe bring in Wasim Jr and Shadab back (if he is fit) or the new young spinner. Also, hopefully they rest Iftikhar and bring in Asif Ali.

 

[NeVerMind]

Its unfair to club Haider with Ifti Khush and Asif

Well he has more 50s than those 3 combined but still looks awful... Couldn't even perform in the PSL...

 

[heddie19]

What gun openers?

Bairstow is injured, roy is out due to poor performances.

 

[Bilal7]

1) Rizwan
2) Babar
3) Shan
4) Haider
5) Shadab
6) Amir Jamal
7) Asif
8) Naseem
9) Wasim
10) Abrar
11) Hasnain

Time to rotate. Some players need rest and others need match practice.

 

[PakPremi]

I would be prepared to try Haris as a batsman in place of Khushdil or Iftikhar. Nasim comes back for Dhani. And Usman dropped for the debutant spinner Abrar.

 

[NeVerMind]

Too small sample size.

Give them remaining 5 games and ask Babar and Rizwan to sit out.

At least make a sample size 5 to 7 games instead of playing the FAMED DUO every game.

Best team without Babar and Riz based on the current squad:

1. Shaan
2. Haider
3. Chacha
4. Happy Heart
5. Haris
6. Asif
7. Shadab
8. Nawaz
9. Wasim Jnr
10. Rauf
11. Naseem

If this team scores more than 150 plus, let alone beat England, I'll eat my hat!

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Best team without Babar and Riz based on the current squad:

1. Shaan
2. Haider
3. Chacha
4. Happy Heart
5. Haris
6. Asif
7. Shadab
8. Nawaz
9. Wasim Jnr
10. Rauf
11. Naseem

If this team scores more than 150 plus, let alone beat England, I'll eat my hat!

Not asking them to beat England.

But at least, we would get an idea of who our best players are sans Babar and Rizwan.

I dont even rate Shans knock today.

Much easier to score when you have "no pressure" and match is gone at 28/4.

Shan was never intending to win the match.

It was a "batting outing for him".

 

[NeVerMind]

Not asking them to beat England.

But at least, we would get an idea of who our best players are sans Babar and Rizwan.

I dont even rate Shans knock today.

Much easier to score when you have "no pressure" and match is gone at 28/4.

Shan was never intending to win the match.

It was a "batting outing for him".

But the likes of Chacha and Happy Heart (and Asif Ali if he was playing) have one 50 between them and that was 3 years ago! Even if they tried to have a "batting outing" as you term it, they wouldn't be able to do that as they don't have the ability. They ain't going to turn into Afridi, Razzaq and Azhar Mehmood, even if you play them for another 3 years.

But happy for the experiment to take place. Unlike some, I don't have any agenda against anyone (I think that's a sub-continent thing as in hell with anyone, as long as I am proved right). I want my team to do well so happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Usman Chadda]

But the likes of Chacha and Happy Heart (and Asif Ali if he was playing) have one 50 between them and that was 3 years ago! Even if they tried to have a "batting outing" as you term it, they wouldn't be able to do that as they don't have the ability. They ain't going to turn into Afridi, Razzaq and Azhar Mehmood, even if you play them for another 3 years.

But happy for the experiment to take place. Unlike some, I don't have any agenda against anyone (I think that's a sub-continent thing as in hell with anyone, as long as I am proved right). I want my team to do well so happy to be proved wrong.

We will fold for less than 100 every game with such an ‘experiment’. The middle order being rubbish is certainly not due to lack of opportunities.

 

[NeVerMind]

We will fold for less than 100 every game with such an ‘experiment’. The middle order being rubbish is certainly not due to lack of opportunities.

That's the point I am making. The two matches against Sri Lanka in the Asia Cup final, the first and today's match against England. Ample opportunities, even to score what some term "soft runs". Forget a 50 from a middle over player, can some one tell me when Chacha, Happy Heart and Asif "Tully baaz" Ali scored a combined score of 50 in one match? Anyone?

 

[Dr_Bassim]

We will fold for less than 100 every game with such an ‘experiment’. The middle order being rubbish is certainly not due to lack of opportunities.

Then put the "burden of proof" on the team.

Let them crash to less than 100 in ALL 5 GAMES and we will have our answer.

5 games.

That's all I am asking.

5 games without Babar and Rizwan. They will open anyway at the World Cup. We aren't going to find new openers.

But they won't do "this experiment".

Because they want to live the "hero way" where Babar and Rizwan are heroes for winning everything by themselves.

The fantasy is often always better than reality.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Then put the "burden of proof" on the team.

Let them crash to less than 100 in ALL 5 GAMES and we will have our answer.

5 games.

That's all I am asking.

5 games without Babar and Rizwan. They will open anyway at the World Cup. We aren't going to find new openers.

But they won't do "this experiment".

Because they want to live the "hero way" where Babar and Rizwan are heroes for winning everything by themselves.

The fantasy is often always better than reality.

Why would anyone in their right mind try this out, when we all know what the result is going to be?

I don’t quite follow? Experimentation for the sake of experimentation shouldn’t be done, experimentation for the sake of improvement should definitely be looked at. What is the point of chucking in five hapless batsmen with zero confidence, against the likes of Mark Wood, going to achieve?

 

[Anis Shivani]

This is why I advocated trying the top 5 batters from the national T20 cup, the top 3 fast-bowling all rounders, and the top 3 spinners in this series, and giving the main players a rest. Pakistan is not going anywhere in the world cup. The team needs a total overhaul. Yesterday was an illusion, and there will be fewer and fewer of these superhero performances from the top two going forward. Babar's days as a captain are numbered, he won't be your T20 captain in a year. It's an excuse that there is NO middle-order batting in Pakistan. Babar and Rizwan, for all their show about sacrifice, especially the latter, are being very selfish by hogging the spotlight. This is a team sport, but they're playing as if they are the only two reliable batsmen. Unless you play the replacements how will you choose from the best? I wouldn't be surprised if Rizwan plays all seven games. That would be the height of selfishness. Same for Babar. They have such strong statistics because they play relatively risk-free cricket, get to play the most balls, and accumulate a whole bunch of runs. Qasim Akram, Saim Ayub, Sahibzada Farhan, Sharjeel Khan, Omair bin Yousuf, Kamran Ghulam, all should have been playing. Education matters. A person of limited education like Babar can only think so far. Let him be a batsman. Babar's idea of experiment is bringing back Usman Qadir! They prevented Haider Ali from playing the national T20 cup without giving him a single game in the Asia Cup.

 

[fight_club]

Why would anyone in their right mind try this out, when we all know what the result is going to be?

I don’t quite follow? Experimentation for the sake of experimentation shouldn’t be done, experimentation for the sake of improvement should definitely be looked at. What is the point of chucking in five hapless batsmen with zero confidence, against the likes of Mark Wood, going to achieve?

On the Contrary the Question is other way around, "Why the heck did they not tried this option for out loud"

The unending chorus of "Middle order" is playing out like a broken record, Guess what both these batsmen have played substantial amount of their cricket in the "Middle order" now batsmen don't grow on tree and in Pakistan the tolerance for "Tree" itself is petty fickle, So why don't these gentlemen both of who possess supreme temperament and great inning building and holding ability ever try moving down ??

Because that will give them less deliveries to play with. In T20 you can look to attack in Powerplay play loafted shots so, why not experiment with openers who can do it and even if they get out these guys can do the repair job and provide solidity to the innings

I am sure Sherlock holms would have committed suicide being so clueless ever if he has given a task to crack Pakistan batting strategy

 

[Rana]

Harris has to play

Asif Ali as well

I would like Jamal and Abrar to play too.

Would potentially like to see if Khushdil is any decent at no.4

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Why would anyone in their right mind try this out, when we all know what the result is going to be?

I don’t quite follow? Experimentation for the sake of experimentation shouldn’t be done, experimentation for the sake of improvement should definitely be looked at. What is the point of chucking in five hapless batsmen with zero confidence, against the likes of Mark Wood, going to achieve?

For the "sake of experimentation" ?

We continuously harp about lack of middle order batsmen while the openers seem to be in "supreme touch".

Are you not interested in finding 2 other batsmen who can play in the team and chase targets?

Are you going to be one of those like the chorus which "buries its head in the sand" and resignedly puts forward the statements that "Babar and Rizwan are only capable and we are going to hope they get lucky and win every match on their own"?

This 7 match series was supposed to test what is our middle order.

What is the point of Babar and Rizwan playing every match?

We need to find out what the rest of them are capable of. Clearly, this doesn't suit the narrative of the fans and team psyche.

Hence the stubborn behavior to keep playing these two.

 

[Justcrazy]

There is no quick fix , its a long term process. Pakistan are playing two middle order batsmen short , over relying on bogus power hitters.

This mentality of hyping average players and taging them as power hitters needs to be shed. You need proper batsmen who can handle high pace and quality spin.

 

[Kianig89]

very tough for Pakistan, outplayed in bowling and batting and lack of options as well,

 

[Shafi]

We need a proper tough mind professional head coach. Saqlain will be silent all the way to suppots Babar's stupidity. Looks like this 7 match series is a waste so will be NZ tri-series.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Problem is that we need to find 3 other batsmen to replace Chacha, Happy Heart and Haider and that ain't going to happen...

Well Haider got a fearsome bouncer at 97 mph , anyone would have got out



Haider got only two inns so far.. Yes Chacha, Khushdil , asif ali been playing for more than a year and still struggling because they are limited to gully cricket literally

 

[ask_analyse_act]

There is no quick fix , its a long term process.

Pakistan are playing two middle order batsmen short , over relying on bogus power hitters.

This mentality of hyping average players and taging them as power hitters needs to be shed.

You need proper batsmen who can handle high pace and quality spin.

Exactly , you can see a bunch of ppers here who buy that logic and keep hyping and repeating the names and threads around for Asif Ali, Khusdil, Chacham, Sharjeel, Azam Khan and so on..

These powerhitters are no where near any intl quality hitters.. Not all teams are gifted with quality hitters like Buttler, Pandya, Stoinis , Miller etc. but they put proper batsman in there and develop their power hitting ability...

What Pakitan have is chickens in the name of hitters ( fake hitters) and asking them to run like cheetahs lol..

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Harris has to play

Asif Ali as well

I would like Jamal and Abrar to play too.

Would potentially like to see if Khushdil is any decent at no.4

You are crazy, asking for Sharjeel, Azam to comeback , now Asif ali to be back and Khusdil at no.4

All of the above , including Chacha should all go home.. No where near intl quality...

Invest in proper batsman like Haider and Masood.
Guys from domestic like Ghulam, Shafique, Hurraira, Haseebullah, Saim Ayub, Hasan Nawaz etc.

Or else be happy with where they are now.. Rinse and repeat AA, KS, IA

 

[Shafi]

Knowing Babar it will be same team.

 

[Shafi]

You are crazy, asking for Sharjeel, Azam to comeback , now Asif ali to be back and Khusdil at no.4

All of the above , including Chacha should all go home.. No where near intl quality...

Invest in proper batsman like Haider and Masood.
Guys from domestic like Ghulam, Shafique, Hurraira, Haseebullah, Saim Ayub, Hasan Nawaz etc.

Or else be happy with where they are now.. Rinse and repeat AA, KS, IA

Bro, Haider himself looks like worse than Khusdil.

 

[MenInG]

Not sure what the thinking from Pakistan is on Haider Ali but wonder if exposing him to more failures is a good idea?

 

[Moiz14]

Babar
Rizwan
Haider
Shan
Nawaz
Asif
Aamir Jamal
Haris Rauf
Dahani
Husnain
Abrar

I think they shouldn't get too worried.. Shaheen, Naseem and Shadab will be back soon.. Let the boys like dahani and abrar and Haider play and learn.. Our team isn't bad at all.. Bad days come in cricket.. Line and lengths need improvement in next match, I don't think any other country has the bowling attack like ours.. Our bowlers have done it 8 out of 10 times.. Shan has come into his groove at 4 which is good.. Khushdil and
Usman Qadir don't give much hope.. Shadab will replace usman eventually but this aamir Jamal needs to be tried in place of Khushdil.. If he comes good with bat, he can be the best replacement as he can be our 6th bowling option and fast bowling all-rounder in aus which is needed.. Don't come too hard on Haider guys.. Just 2 games... He is a good player.. Look at the rope we have given to asif, Khushdil and ifti.. I think we should give Haider all 7 games and number 3 and then see.. He'll come good..
All is not bad.. Just some tweaking required

 

[Rana]

You are crazy, asking for Sharjeel, Azam to comeback , now Asif ali to be back and Khusdil at no.4

All of the above , including Chacha should all go home.. No where near intl quality...

Invest in proper batsman like Haider and Masood.
Guys from domestic like Ghulam, Shafique, Hurraira, Haseebullah, Saim Ayub, Hasan Nawaz etc.

Or else be happy with where they are now.. Rinse and repeat AA, KS, IA

When did I ever say Azam khan?

 

[adi_62941]

Seems like babar and rizwan has taken all batsmen responsibility and execpt them, all are assigned a job of either hit a 6 or block a ball and just survive in the middle while anchor role has to be played by babar or rizwan otherwise we are not gonna win.

I think babar or rizwan should be rested for a match or two and they should try some new combo and give more responsibility to chacha or happyheart in order to make their place valueable and let them take responsibility. What i have seen is that asif, khushdil or even chacha are coming on grease when only they need 4s and 6s and not anchoring the innings.

The confidence and body language of these players are also extremely down maybe due to media and ex-cricketer's criticism. Here comes a role of coaches to make them feel good and boost their confidence however our pakistani coaches are extremely bad in management roles.

So overall we are going into this t20 WC only hoping that either babar or rizwan will win us match or shaheen do some wonders with a help of shadab otherwise no chance

 

[Asif321]

Jamal should debut , Haider or khush goes out.
Naseem back for dahani

 

[Kriketer]

We know for a fact Rizwan and Babar are good at the top. To test rest of our toothless batting brigade both openers should be seated and then see who will charge Pakistan. I expect Shaan to play sensibly but the rest will really get tested and might value their wicket more before playing their usual gully cricket shots to get out. Fakhar must be part of the batting lineup, he's just missing the mojo which can come back with one good knock, atleast we know he can bat unlike rest of tape ball cricketers like Chacha, Happy heart...these two shouldn't be part of any batting lineup, too many outings for them without any solid performance!

 

[Fenrir]

Khushdil should be dropped.Haider is technically better than Khushdil but he has lost confidence.He is young and should be persisted with.Needs to play domestic cricket to get his form back.

 

[MenInG]

Aaqib Javed questioning selection:

"What is the role of Iftikhar Ahmed in Pakistan team?"

"Shoaib Malik is currently the best choice on number four position. Why he is not getting chance?"

"On what performances, Haider Ali was reselected? He failed to perform in PSL but still, he came in the national squad"

 

[Rana]

Aaqib Javed questioning selection:

"What is the role of Iftikhar Ahmed in Pakistan team?"

"Shoaib Malik is currently the best choice on number four position. Why he is not getting chance?"

"On what performances, Haider Ali was reselected? He failed to perform in PSL but still, he came in the national squad"

Khich ke rakh inna nu Aqib sir!

 

[skassoc48]

Agree 100% more sensible post

 

[TeymurBlake]

Bring in Aamer Jamal for Khushdil Shah, bring in Abrar Ahmed for Usman Qadir, Asif Ali for Iftikhar Ahmed, Mohammad Haris for Haider Ali and finally Wasim Jnr for Dhani.

 

[Omer2002]

Abrar shud play instead of usman who is a spray gun...jamal also but not for a batter but for a bowler

 

[hitthestump]

Agree it's time for some debutants. There isn't anything to lose by rolling the dice now and they get a bit of rope.

Rizwan and Babar need to sit out too. They've played a lot of cricket and the middle order needs some exposure.

 

[James]

What gun openers?

Bairstow is injured, roy is out due to poor performances.

Hales is top class.

Having stellar second string subs up there like Salt and Jacks is also quite the luxury.

 

[ZafarKhan2022]

The real victory is in Pakistan completing its role as a host without any untoward incidents. That would be a victory leading to small progress in the nation’s macroeconomic objectives. Whoever wins the series is immaterial.

 

[moghul]

Not realistic but ideally this should be the playing 11 in the first match in T20 WC

1-Rizwan
2-Sharjeel
3-Babar
4-Shaan
5-Fakkar
6-Saim Ayub
7-Shadab
8-Imad
9-Shaheen
10-Rauf
11-Amir

Bench:

Naseem
Husnain
Nawaz
Haris
Asif

 

[ChTab]

What was the point of selecting 17 players for a 7 match series if you're not going to test your bench strength. So far Pakistan has played with roughly same XI in all 3 games they will play more or less the same team in 4th & rest of the T20I's.

 

[sweep_shot]

England have surprised me. I thought they would be significantly weaker without Morgan, Stokes, and Butler.

I expect Pakistan to win this one and make it 2-2.

 

[James]

The prospects of Pakistan at the moment (in T20I cricket) seem to rest on the shoulders of the Rizwan and Babar partnership. If they get off to a stormer together, Pakistan are in the game. But if they both get out cheaply, I don’t see a clear Plan B within the team for winning the match in a different way.

 

[Usman Chadda]

On the Contrary the Question is other way around, "Why the heck did they not tried this option for out loud"

The unending chorus of "Middle order" is playing out like a broken record, Guess what both these batsmen have played substantial amount of their cricket in the "Middle order" now batsmen don't grow on tree and in Pakistan the tolerance for "Tree" itself is petty fickle, So why don't these gentlemen both of who possess supreme temperament and great inning building and holding ability ever try moving down ??

Because that will give them less deliveries to play with. In T20 you can look to attack in Powerplay play loafted shots so, why not experiment with openers who can do it and even if they get out these guys can do the repair job and provide solidity to the innings

I am sure Sherlock holms would have committed suicide being so clueless ever if he has given a task to crack Pakistan batting strategy

Wrong.

The middle-order batters have had enough games where they had ample opportunity to prove their mettle, they failed horribly at each step.

Stop blaming Babar and Rizwan for the failures of a few pathetic batsmen, just to seem ‘diffferent’.

 

[Fenrir]

England have surprised me. I thought they would be significantly weaker without Morgan, Stokes, and Butler.

I expect Pakistan to win this one and make it 2-2.

England is excellent bench strength in LOI cricket,they can rest or replace any player they want.