Pakistan's reluctance to play proper specialist spinners in ODI Cricket

[Farabi]

So you have issue with everyone giving you an Analysis, but you who has watched cricket since the 90s cant providde an analysis on Sajid khan or Noman Ali

If they are world class LOI spinners we would have known already. Have they played for shaheens any time? If they are not even considered good enough for that team how can you push them for main team? Wouldn't you want to Test them if they are good enough at some level? So far the only proof is their boat load of wickets on doctored pitches.

One of the biggest advantage for guys like LYon, Prabath is they don't play LOIs, leagues. Batmsen will get more familiar against you and start thrashing you even in Tests. Guys like Ashwin, Jadeja who have been playing IPL for 14 years played for various franchisees. Batsmen got used to them in the nets. It takes a sting out of your bowling when batsmen are more familiar. If these two guys get exposed at this level , Pakistan will lose the Test home advantage as well.

Both of them are far better batsmens then Sajid and Nauman. You can't be serious. Sajid Khan has 1 list A 50 and you want him at 7? Kushdil has multiple centuries. Are you saying both Sajid and Nauman are better batsmen?

If those guys are so good why do they never get picked for domestic teams for List A games?

Since most of these questions and comments are basically different flavors of the same thought, I figured I’d just bundle them up into one response to save time.

1. Not getting picked for List A isn’t a career death sentence. Pakistani domestic selectors have a long history of making, let’s say, *questionable* decisions. A quality bowler is a quality bowler, and Test cricket is the real proving ground. It’s not like they’re using an orange instead of a cricket ball in List A, or playing on AstroTurf. So let’s not overthink that one. The basics are exactly the same like having control, variation and intelligence.

2. Nauman Ali and Sajid Khan aren’t world-class batters nor are they “ideal for no7” but do they need to be? The real question is whether they offer a better balance than Khushdil Shah, who is a legside hack, and Abrar in the tail who can’t even hold a bat. If you swap them in at 7 and 8, does the batting lineup actually take a hit? That’s for you to decide. I know my answer but answer yourself!

 

[BouncerGuy]

Abrar is a specialist spinner. People might not rate him high but he has done a good job so far in limited-over cricket. I think, we need to trust him more not because he is the sole specialist spinner in the lineup but because he is good enough. Biggest miss for me is a specialist all-rounder. Khushdil is no all-rounder. Hack picked on the basis of BPL.

 

[thickedge]

Leg spinners are the riskiest of players in ODI format due to the fielding restrictions and bowling to RHB. Unless you have absolute control such as Shane Warne, leggies rarely make the top of any bowling list as they are super high risk

We have gone with an average Leg spinner. Our specialist spinner should be invested in Sufyan Muqim

Left arm wrist spin is unusual and teams won't have had time to figure him out. His deliveries angling into RHB and being difficult to pick wrongun for LHB bring more opportunities for wickets into play.

Abrar telegraph's his wrongun that even an average RHB like DeZorbi started picking him and carting him. I could even pick it and I was watching at 360p quality.

Muqim, Sajid then Abrar should be our pecking order.

We have Abrar, and 2 part timers. Go figure

 

[pratiktc]

Pak needs to invest time and money in Shadab rehab.

A fit and in form Shadab at #7 suddenly makes this Pak XI look so much more balanced and high quality

 

[RidiculousMan]

Both of them are far better batsmens then Sajid and Nauman. You can't be serious. Sajid Khan has 1 list A 50 and you want him at 7? Kushdil has multiple centuries. Are you saying both Sajid and Nauman are better batsmen?

Khushdil is but Faheem is not.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Since most of these questions and comments are basically different flavors of the same thought, I figured I’d just bundle them up into one response to save time.

1. Not getting picked for List A isn’t a career death sentence. Pakistani domestic selectors have a long history of making, let’s say, *questionable* decisions. A quality bowler is a quality bowler, and Test cricket is the real proving ground. It’s not like they’re using an orange instead of a cricket ball in List A, or playing on AstroTurf. So let’s not overthink that one. The basics are exactly the same like having control, variation and intelligence.

2. Nauman Ali and Sajid Khan aren’t world-class batters nor are they “ideal for no7” but do they need to be? The real question is whether they offer a better balance than Khushdil Shah, who is a legside hack, and Abrar in the tail who can’t even hold a bat. If you swap them in at 7 and 8, does the batting lineup actually take a hit? That’s for you to decide. I know my answer but answer yourself!

1.Adil Rashid is a good LOI Bowler. Not a great test match bowler. Same way Lyon is a good Test match bowler. Not a good LOI bowler. This is why you test these bowlers at lower level. May be your shaheen team would have picked them if they were that good.

2) Forget about world-class batters. Are they world class bowlers first? Until october 15th, 2024 Sajid khan and Nauman had no real international record to speak of. The day the giant fans, heaters came on to the ground.

On october 14th records of Noman Ali and Sajid

Sajid 8 tests 25 wickest 38.16 avge
Noman 15 tests 47 wickets 33.53 avge

You are expecting them to replicate their performance on those wickets with white ball on flat wickets.

 

[Justcrazy]

Both of them are far better batsmens then Sajid and Nauman. You can't be serious. Sajid Khan has 1 list A 50 and you want him at 7? Kushdil has multiple centuries. Are you saying both Sajid and Nauman are better batsmen?

They are better with bat , but do not look confident right now. That is the main concern. Just look at the number 7 of other teams , almost all have a solid batsman. Does Faheem look close to them?

 

[khyberlion]

They are better with bat , but do not look confident right now. That is the main concern. Just look at the number 7 of other teams , almost all have a solid batsman. Does Faheem look close to them?

Off course faheem etc are not better than other no 7s for other teams, but he's comfortably better than Sajid and Nauman.

 

[khyberlion]

Since most of these questions and comments are basically different flavors of the same thought, I figured I’d just bundle them up into one response to save time.

1. Not getting picked for List A isn’t a career death sentence. Pakistani domestic selectors have a long history of making, let’s say, *questionable* decisions. A quality bowler is a quality bowler, and Test cricket is the real proving ground. It’s not like they’re using an orange instead of a cricket ball in List A, or playing on AstroTurf. So let’s not overthink that one. The basics are exactly the same like having control, variation and intelligence.

2. Nauman Ali and Sajid Khan aren’t world-class batters nor are they “ideal for no7” but do they need to be? The real question is whether they offer a better balance than Khushdil Shah, who is a legside hack, and Abrar in the tail who can’t even hold a bat. If you swap them in at 7 and 8, does the batting lineup actually take a hit? That’s for you to decide. I know my answer but answer yourself!

Kushdil is a leg side hack and shouldn't be in the team that doesn't change the fact he provides far better balance at 7. I can't believe you think having Sajid or Nauman provides better balance at 7. I thought you were all about stats? Nauman and Sajid have 1 fifty combined while Kushdil has 8 centuries. Yet the Nauman and Sajid are better at 7. At this point you are being dishonest with due respect.

 

[Savak]

Yet again NZ spinners i.e. Bracewell, Phillips, Satner out bowling Pakistani spinners.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Moronic.

NZ part timers have scythed through them

 

[Farabi]

Kushdil is a leg side hack and shouldn't be in the team that doesn't change the fact he provides far better balance at 7. I can't believe you think having Sajid or Nauman provides better balance at 7. I thought you were all about stats? Nauman and Sajid have 1 fifty combined while Kushdil has 8 centuries. Yet the Nauman and Sajid are better at 7. At this point you are being dishonest with due respect.

You’re leaving out the full proposal or removing also Abrar/Rauf. So whatever you lose with dropping Khusdil, you gain by dropping a specialist pacer or spinner.

Also, today was a vindication of what I said.

Instead of worrying about batting at tail and no7, what we should have been worried about is getting the opposition team out on relatively flat pitches.

Our bowling is toothless. We should have bet on Sajid and Nauman.

It was a gut punch to see a left arm Santner and off spinner Bracewell spinning a web yet again, doing what Sajid and nauman can also do. It’s overthinking by fans like @jnaveen1980 and @Major

If you’re chasing 250, maybe you can live with Sajid and Nauman vs Rauf/Abrar and Khusdil. If we are going to think defensively, then we DESERVE this humiliation.

 

[Major]

You’re leaving out the full proposal or removing also Abrar/Rauf. So whatever you lose with dropping Khusdil, you gain by dropping a specialist pacer or spinner.

Also, today was a vindication of what I said.

Instead of worrying about batting at tail and no7, what we should have been worried about is getting the opposition team out on relatively flat pitches.

Our bowling is toothless. We should have bet on Sajid and Nauman.

It was a gut punch to see a left arm Santner and off spinner Bracewell spinning a web yet again, doing what Sajid and nauman can also do. It’s overthinking by fans like @jnaveen1980 and @Major

If you’re chasing 250, maybe you can live with Sajid and Nauman vs Rauf/Abrar and Khusdil. If we are going to think defensively, then we DESERVE this humiliation.

can you stop tagging me?

You are being illogical, dont even know spin bowling and think Sajid is some spinner. Check his List A avgs atleast.

 

[Farabi]

can you stop tagging me?

You are being illogical, dont even know spin bowling and think Sajid is some spinner. Check his List A avgs atleast.

Sure! Of course the spin bowling of Abrar and Khusdil is better!
And left arm spinners and off spinners have no role to play in ODIs.
You have no clue buddy.

 

[khyberlion]

You’re leaving out the full proposal or removing also Abrar/Rauf. So whatever you lose with dropping Khusdil, you gain by dropping a specialist pacer or spinner.

Also, today was a vindication of what I said.

Instead of worrying about batting at tail and no7, what we should have been worried about is getting the opposition team out on relatively flat pitches.

Our bowling is toothless. We should have bet on Sajid and Nauman.

It was a gut punch to see a left arm Santner and off spinner Bracewell spinning a web yet again, doing what Sajid and nauman can also do. It’s overthinking by fans like @jnaveen1980 and @Major

If you’re chasing 250, maybe you can live with Sajid and Nauman vs Rauf/Abrar and Khusdil. If we are going to think defensively, then we DESERVE this humiliation.

Sajid was outbowled by Salman in Australia. He cost Peshawar a QEA Final because he didn't get a custom match pitch.

He needs to get into domestic teams first before international. What happened to you backing domestic performers? The only reason you are suggesting Sajid and Nauman is because of the custom made pitches. You even compared him to Phillips lol. I will leave it at that.

 

[Farabi]

Sajid was outbowled by Salman in Australia. He cost Peshawar a QEA Final because he didn't get a custom match pitch.

He needs to get into domestic teams first before international. What happened to you backing domestic performers? The only reason you are suggesting Sajid and Nauman is because of the custom made pitches. You even compared him to Phillips lol. I will leave it at that.

When someone has already performed at the highest level, why would I look at low fidelity data. Agha and Abrar look lesser bowlers on same custom pitches, ein fact Agha doesn’t even touch the ball.

Test bowling is about getting opposition out which is exactly what was needed here in middle overs.

Anyway, let’s agree to disagree and move on.

I think spin will be key in this tournament and I don’t agree Khusdil, Agha, and Abrar as a combo will win it for us.

Where you’re right is that they would have been a gamble because of all the reasons you all mentioned, but I still think it was a gamble worth taking.

I belong to the camp that believes if top6 can’t win it for you, forget the tail. Focus on getting opposite team out. Be aggressive.

 

[khyberlion]

can you stop tagging me?

You are being illogical, dont even know spin bowling and think Sajid is some spinner. Check his List A avgs atleast.

When someone has already performed at the highest level, why would I look at low fidelity data. Agha and Abrar look lesser bowlers on same custom pitches, ein fact Agha doesn’t even touch the ball.

Test bowling is about getting opposition out which is exactly what was needed here in middle overs.

Anyway, let’s agree to disagree and move on.

I think spin will be key in this tournament and I don’t agree Khusdil, Agha, and Abrar as a combo will win it for us.

Where you’re right is that they would have been a gamble because of all the reasons you all mentioned, but I still think it was a gamble worth taking.

I belong to the camp that believes if top6 can’t win it for you, forget the tail. Focus on getting opposite team out. Be aggressive.

Sajid is not the answer not matter how you want to twist it. At no 7 anyone will take Kushdil over Sajid Khan regardless of how rubbish Kushdil is. Abrar bowled well today but was rubbish last 2 games.

I won't read much into Sajid or Nauman performance on custom made pitches. They won't be able to contain or take wickets in limited overs hence no one picks them in domestics.

 

[mon858]

Nz spinners average turn: 4.9
Pakistan spinners average turn: 2.5
If we did have another specialist spinner we would have to shorten batting or replace a pacer since they are getting smoked anyway.
I would have reconsidered Shadab over Khushdil to be honest.

 

[Farabi]

Sajid is not the answer not matter how you want to twist it. At no 7 anyone will take Kushdil over Sajid Khan regardless of how rubbish Kushdil is. Abrar bowled well today but was rubbish last 2 games.

I won't read much into Sajid or Nauman performance on custom made pitches. They won't be able to contain or take wickets in limited overs hence no one picks them in domestics.

I get it—Sajid isn’t an ideal No. 7, and we all know that. But cricket is about smart trade-offs.

On these pitches, you can’t beat a top team without wicket-taking spinners in the middle overs. Set batters, especially with the new rules, will tear the bowling apart.

Agha and Abrar aren’t even that effective on tailor-made pitches, and at best, they’re just okay bowlers. I don’t see many other options.

Sure, they could have tried Sufiyan M, but he can’t hold a bat. Arafat M was another choice, but he’s still new.

At least Nauman and Sajid have proven themselves in one format, offer *something* with the bat, and give us a sliver of hope that they might do something.

This was a desperate situation.

Anyway, Pakistan is on its way out now, thanks to Khusdil, Agha, and Abrar as the spin attack. It was a terrible idea, and some of us saw it coming.

 

[khyberlion]

I get it—Sajid isn’t an ideal No. 7, and we all know that. But cricket is about smart trade-offs.

On these pitches, you can’t beat a top team without wicket-taking spinners in the middle overs. Set batters, especially with the new rules, will tear the bowling apart.

Agha and Abrar aren’t even that effective on tailor-made pitches, and at best, they’re just okay bowlers. I don’t see many other options.

Sure, they could have tried Sufiyan M, but he can’t hold a bat. Arafat M was another choice, but he’s still new.

At least Nauman and Sajid have proven themselves in one format, offer *something* with the bat, and give us a sliver of hope that they might do something.

This was a desperate situation.

Anyway, Pakistan is on its way out now, thanks to Khusdil, Agha, and Abrar as the spin attack. It was a terrible idea, and some of us saw it coming.

Yes if they picked Sajid and Nauman wee would have been champions and no both of them haven't proven anything other than taking wickets on custom made pitches. You do know you can't made them in an ICC tournament as they prepare the pitches. Even then both of them were outbowled by Jamal warrican.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Shadab's take on PCT's spin department

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[GoUgandaCranes]

Saal ho gaya hai, kisi nay kaha tha surgery krni hai cricket team ki after the T20 WC.

I'm just waiting to see what is the next statement that will be delivered emphatically

 

[Nado_]

In these conditions having two spinners is a must. But what I can’t understand is how we have one of the worst spin attacks, even New Zealand have better spin attack than us. What has gone wrong ? I think we wasted many years on Shadab and Nawaz who in my opinion were two fraud spinners who had a fluke psl on rank turners. Shadab had a really good Googly but perhaps he just didn’t want to work hard. Given our history we always used to boast one of or if not the best spin attacks, look at AFG spinners , why can’t we have spinners on their level. Something has gone wrong.

 

[Farabi]

Yes if they picked Sajid and Nauman wee would have been champions and no both of them haven't proven anything other than taking wickets on custom made pitches. You do know you can't made them in an ICC tournament as they prepare the pitches. Even then both of them were outbowled by Jamal warrican.

On the same so-called “custom pitches” where Abrar, Agha, Sajid, and Nauman all played, Sajid and Nauman were by far the more effective spinners—so much so that Agha didn’t even bother to touch the ball much because he knew he would be wasting time. That’s just the stone cold reality. The rest is wishful thinking and narratives people are convincing each other of with baseless assumptions.

On these pitches, Sajid and Nauman would have given teams like NZ a challenge and something to prepare for.

In the last game, Pakistan had NZ on the mat until the duo of Khusdhil and Agha’s shameful “spin bowling” gave them a red carpet back into the game.

You need to focus on getting them out. If you hate Sajid and Nauman, then play someone else but play actual spinners!

 

[Savak]

Wasted an opportunity to pick Sufiyan Muqeem. Our dumb selectors and team management went for Imam instead.

 

[mon858]

Wasted an opportunity to pick Sufiyan Muqeem. Our dumb selectors and team management went for Imam instead.

Ego. Would have proven them wrong if they did it and played spinner even if he did well. And if opener failed again would have looked bad also. So they went with safe option.

All in mindset, safety first, fear of losing, fear of backlash, fear of getting dropped, etc.

I think Agha Salman should be white ball captain. At least he had right mind set. Maybe even all format captain and build a fresher team around him with fresh coaching/selection setup.

 

[Aami]

Facts are facts. We cant play 2 specialist spinners in the same side its either Abrar or Moqeem?

Playing both will mean Mr Hack/axe Afridi batting at 7.

If, however, you bring in a seaming all rounder in Faheem at 7 to act as a 3rd seamer, then one of 3 main fast men will need to sit down.

I know, another combination would be keeping Khushdil at 7 and dropping one of Afridi, Naseem or Haris (just 2 fast bowlers) but I cant see that happening.

 

[khyberlion]

On the same so-called “custom pitches” where Abrar, Agha, Sajid, and Nauman all played, Sajid and Nauman were by far the more effective spinners—so much so that Agha didn’t even bother to touch the ball much because he knew he would be wasting time. That’s just the stone cold reality. The rest is wishful thinking and narratives people are convincing each other of with baseless assumptions.

On these pitches, Sajid and Nauman would have given teams like NZ a challenge and something to prepare for.

In the last game, Pakistan had NZ on the mat until the duo of Khusdhil and Agha’s shameful “spin bowling” gave them a red carpet back into the game.

You need to focus on getting them out. If you hate Sajid and Nauman, then play someone else but play actual spinners!

On those custom made pitches they bowled most of the over and still failed to win against WI and that too in a test format which is their best format.

Please don't drag the conversation needlessly. They are competing for a specialist spinner not with Kushdil or Salman. No one would ever pick them for the no 7 spot even in domestics. They should be competing with Abrar not Kushdil or Salman. You have got it all wrong.

 

[jnaveen1980]

If the pitches are like this even Salman Agha can shine. Lot of times Srilankan part timers can be as dangerous as specialists on slow turners like this. So far Pakistan has played on flat pitches. In UAE their spinners should enjoy a bit more.