PakPassion Debate: India vs Pakistan fast-bowlers [all formats] (tyron_woodley v kingpin786)

[MenInG]

So all set for the first (of many debates on PakPassion)

We have [MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] v [MENTION=151924]Kingpin786[/MENTION]

'discussing' which of India and Pakistan has better fast bowlers in all formats at the moment!

Over to you gentleman - post as many times as you like.

Other PPers - please bide your time

Once the debate is over, we will allow all to have their say in it.

 

[Kingpin786]

so in my opinion pakistan fast bowling is ahead in limited overs and india have slight edge in tests but when you look for variety or all formats combined pakistan is ahead because pakistan have both good left armers
and right armers ,swing bowlers,genuine fast bowlers,seamers, india have an attac which has limtations but it is disciplined

 

[Kingpin786]

what are your thoughts [MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION]

 

[tyron_woodley]

so in my opinion pakistan fast bowling is ahead in limited overs and india have slight edge in tests but when you look for variety or all formats combined pakistan is ahead because pakistan have both good left armers
and right armers ,swing bowlers,genuine fast bowlers,seamers, india have an attac which has limtations but it is disciplined

we are talking about emerging talents here right? if you are talking about main team bowlers then I disagree. Bumrah, shami, saini, ishant, umesh is a better bunch for test, t20 and probably odi as well.

I thought this was about talents from domestic circuit?

 

[MenInG]

we are talking about emerging talents here right? if you are talking about main team bowlers then I disagree. Bumrah, shami, saini, ishant, umesh is a better bunch for test, t20 and probably odi as well.

I thought this was about talents from domestic circuit?

Its an overall debate on international and domestic talent in all formats.

 

[Kingpin786]

we are talking about emerging talents here right? if you are talking about main team bowlers then I disagree. Bumrah, shami, saini, ishant, umesh is a better bunch for test, t20 and probably odi as well.

I thought this was about talents from domestic circuit?

in both pakistan is ahead shami umesh and bhuvi and ishant all average 30+ in odis while we have shinwari shaheen amir hasan junaid etc

 

[Kingpin786]

when we look at indian bowlers they are very good against weak batting lineups across all formats on other hand pakistani pacers have tedency to perform against any batting lineup

 

[Kingpin786]

I think we have reache a conclusion pakistan fastbowlers>> indian fastbowlers

 

[MenInG]

Reminder

Only the two debatees are allowed to post in here.

 

[tyron_woodley]

when we look at indian bowlers they are very good against weak batting lineups across all formats on other hand pakistani pacers have tedency to perform against any batting lineup

look at the bowling averages from the last 4 -5 years. india has been dominant in tests, odi and t20.

Pakistani bowlers haven't played enough games to warrant their supposed superiority in bowling.

indian bowlers have comprehensively outplayed many teams and the stats over the last 4/5 years don't lie.

 

[tyron_woodley]

ishant shami umesh all average under 25 over the past 4 years in tests.
bumrah averages 20 and is the best bowler in all formats. One bad series in n.z post injury isn't going to sully his reputation. He is a feared bowler.

pakistan have talents at the moment who have potential to be good but none barring shaheen would be a starter in top teams. remember I haven't even included bhuvi who averages 26 in tests and is a far better bowler than almost all pakistanis. His record is top notch and he was sorely missed vs n.z. He is the bes exponent of swing condtions.

shaheen I am not even sure gets into the Indian test team.
shaheen would get into the odi team but not over shami or bumrah. Would be the third first change pacer. shami averages 24 in odi.

 

[tyron_woodley]

would say this. Indian main team bowlers are better but in terms of domestic talents pakistan have shown the ability to integrate more youth into the team. Again that was more out of necessity rather than a gradual process of promoting youth into the top team.

Indian bowlers don't need their youngsters at the moment as many are still in their primes and have don't nothing wrong.

Sample size for lot of the Pakistani bowlers is the shorter formats is too small to compare.

 

[tyron_woodley]

in odi; my rankings would be:

bumrah
shami
shaheen
amir (debatable)
bhuvi
umesh
saini

hasan ali is dilapidated now. career over. junaid khan is terrible and his action questionable. rest are too young. Guys like rauf is more of a t20 specialist. shinwari has played no quality team and has endurance issues.

 

[Kingpin786]

in odi; my rankings would be:

bumrah
shami
shaheen
amir (debatable)
bhuvi
umesh
saini

hasan ali is dilapidated now. career over. junaid khan is terrible and his action questionable. rest are too young. Guys like rauf is more of a t20 specialist. shinwari has played no quality team and has endurance issues.

How can you take someone like saini over usman shinwari
Who has 2 5fers and averages below 25 while saini has not done any thing in odis besides umesh and bhuvi are worse than junaid and hasan a

 

[Kingpin786]

ishant shami umesh all average under 25 over the past 4 years in tests.
bumrah averages 20 and is the best bowler in all formats. One bad series in n.z post injury isn't going to sully his reputation. He is a feared bowler.

pakistan have talents at the moment who have potential to be good but none barring shaheen would be a starter in top teams. remember I haven't even included bhuvi who averages 26 in tests and is a far better bowler than almost all pakistanis. His record is top notch and he was sorely missed vs n.z. He is the bes exponent of swing condtions.

shaheen I am not even sure gets into the Indian test team.
shaheen would get into the odi team but not over shami or bumrah. Would be the third first change pacer. shami averages 24 in odi.

They average less than 25 because the weak batting lineups they face what happened to those bowlers against nz in bowling friendly conditions if we have look at the teams india faced before nz
Bangladesh
Sauth africa with weaker batting lineup
Windies
Australia batters lineup in that series is weakest austalian batting lineup i have ever seen

 

[tyron_woodley]

They average less than 25 because the weak batting lineups they face what happened to those bowlers against nz in bowling friendly conditions if we have look at the teams india faced before nz
Bangladesh
Sauth africa with weaker batting lineup
Windies
Australia batters lineup in that series is weakest austalian batting lineup i have ever seen

again team india destroyed australia. played really well in England and south africa go look up the bowling average sin those series. india played the same south africa that destroyed australia 3 - 1 at home. ABd morkel steyn all played.

india bowling was top notch. It's the batting that let them down.

averages over the past 4 years has been under 25. India has the best bowlers period.

pakistan bowling got smashed around by a much weaker south african side. A depleted south african side.

Pakistani bowling was beyond trash vs australia.

 

[tyron_woodley]

How can you take someone like saini over usman shinwari
Who has 2 5fers and averages below 25 while saini has not done any thing in odis besides umesh and bhuvi are worse than junaid and hasan a

umesh is better than junaid and hasan now. hasan is finished. junaid is a chucker and isn't even the best player in his domestic team.
bhuvi is better than both. He has far better credentials. Average isn't everything.

philander has a better average than wasim and waqar. so philander greater than both?

 

[Kingpin786]

again team india destroyed australia. played really well in England and south africa go look up the bowling average sin those series. india played the same south africa that destroyed australia 3 - 1 at home. ABd morkel steyn all played.

india bowling was top notch. It's the batting that let them down.

averages over the past 4 years has been under 25. India has the best bowlers period.

pakistan bowling got smashed around by a much weaker south african side. A depleted south african side.

Pakistani bowling was beyond trash vs australia.

you did not get my point that indian pacers have inflated bowling stats because of playing against teams which have very weak batting line up and ind tour of nz proved my point besides pakistani bowling perfrmed well in england and decent in sa it was our batting which was disappointing

 

[Kingpin786]

again team india destroyed australia. played really well in England and south africa go look up the bowling average sin those series. india played the same south africa that destroyed australia 3 - 1 at home. ABd morkel steyn all played.

india bowling was top notch. It's the batting that let them down.

averages over the past 4 years has been under 25. India has the best bowlers period.

pakistan bowling got smashed around by a much weaker south african side. A depleted south african side.

Pakistani bowling was beyond trash vs australia.

you did not get my point that indian pacers have inflated bowling stats because of playing against teams which have very weak batting line up and ind tour of nz proved my point besides pakistani bowling perfrmed well in england and decent in sa it was our batting which was disappointing

 

[Kingpin786]

umesh is better than junaid and hasan now. hasan is finished. junaid is a chucker and isn't even the best player in his domestic team.
bhuvi is better than both. He has far better credentials. Average isn't everything.

philander has a better average than wasim and waqar. so philander greater than both?

how can you say that he is a spray gun hasan at his worst= umesh at his best

 

[tyron_woodley]

how can you say that he is a spray gun hasan at his worst= umesh at his best

in tests? not even close. umesh is miles ahead.
In odi his career is over so not worth comparing.

umesh doesn't play t20 and hasan isn't effective in t20.

 

[tyron_woodley]

you did not get my point that indian pacers have inflated bowling stats because of playing against teams which have very weak batting line up and ind tour of nz proved my point besides pakistani bowling perfrmed well in england and decent in sa it was our batting which was disappointing

Indian bowling attack especially fast bowlers average the best over the past 4 years vs all teams in all conditions included.
In tests.

in odi india also won everywhere. Fast bowling is the reason why india is number 1 in tests. india played all top teams.

what happened in 2017 vs australia. india wrecked them. india destroyed England 4 0 at home.

even away to look up the averages. bumrah shami and ishant averaged under 25 vs England, South Africa and Australia away from home. Bowlers were always class.


Pakistanis struggled vs a weak south africa side away from home. Got smashed around the park. pakistam have 1 class bowler and that's shaheen. We all saw what happened vs australia. I don't need to even go there.


right now india is far ahead in bowling. India batting cost them the game vs n.z.

don't forget india also play way more games than any other t3am. So fatigue is bound to happen. That's the reason why they lost to n.z away.

Pakistani bowling was horrible vs south africa and australia and ok vs England.

in test, odi and t20 indian fast bowling is superior.

 

[Kingpin786]

in tests? not even close. umesh is miles ahead.
In odi his career is over so not worth comparing.

umesh doesn't play t20 and hasan isn't effective in t20.

Not at all even in tests hasan is netter he can swing the ball both ways can reverse swing the ball in his short test career he bowled well in uae was decent in england and saon the other hand yadav is a hometrack bulley

 

[Kingpin786]

Indian bowling attack especially fast bowlers average the best over the past 4 years vs all teams in all conditions included.
In tests.

in odi india also won everywhere. Fast bowling is the reason why india is number 1 in tests. india played all top teams.

what happened in 2017 vs australia. india wrecked them. india destroyed England 4 0 at home.

even away to look up the averages. bumrah shami and ishant averaged under 25 vs England, South Africa and Australia away from home. Bowlers were always class.


Pakistanis struggled vs a weak south africa side away from home. Got smashed around the park. pakistam have 1 class bowler and that's shaheen. We all saw what happened vs australia. I don't need to even go there.


right now india is far ahead in bowling. India batting cost them the game vs n.z.

don't forget india also play way more games than any other t3am. So fatigue is bound to happen. That's the reason why they lost to n.z away.

Pakistani bowling was horrible vs south africa and australia and ok vs England.

in test, odi and t20 indian fast bowling is superior.

Well bumrah averages 25+ against eng and abass's average is better than england and the australian team against which your bowlers have atg level stats abas got a10fer against same team and by the way hasan'averages better than bumrah and shami

 

[Kingpin786]

Indian bowling attack especially fast bowlers average the best over the past 4 years vs all teams in all conditions included.
In tests.

in odi india also won everywhere. Fast bowling is the reason why india is number 1 in tests. india played all top teams.

what happened in 2017 vs australia. india wrecked them. india destroyed England 4 0 at home.

even away to look up the averages. bumrah shami and ishant averaged under 25 vs England, South Africa and Australia away from home. Bowlers were always class.


Pakistanis struggled vs a weak south africa side away from home. Got smashed around the park. pakistam have 1 class bowler and that's shaheen. We all saw what happened vs australia. I don't need to even go there.


right now india is far ahead in bowling. India batting cost them the game vs n.z.

don't forget india also play way more games than any other t3am. So fatigue is bound to happen. That's the reason why they lost to n.z away.

Pakistani bowling was horrible vs south africa and australia and ok vs England.

in test, odi and t20 indian fast bowling is superior.

Well bumrah averages 25+ against eng and abass's average is better than england and the australian team against which your bowlers have atg level stats abas got a10fer against same team and by the way hasan'averages better than bumrah and shami

 

[MenInG]

Reminder

Only the two debatees are allowed to post in here.

Please note.

 

[Kingpin786]

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] do you know in india tour of england 2020 mohammad shami got 16 wickets giving away 622 runs in tests which means his average at that tour was 38.875 is it good

 

[tyron_woodley]

Not at all even in tests hasan is netter he can swing the ball both ways can reverse swing the ball in his short test career he bowled well in uae was decent in england and saon the other hand yadav is a hometrack bulley

hasan has done nothing to warrant anything worthy of note. He is a mediocre bowler. Atleast umesh is king in Asian conditions. He is untouchable there. hasan is a terrible bowler. he ha slpst his pace, swing ability and is more of a liability now.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Well bumrah averages 25+ against eng and abass's average is better than england and the australian team against which your bowlers have atg level stats abas got a10fer against same team and by the way hasan'averages better than bumrah and shami

bumrah averages 25 plus vs England? are you sure about that?

All this tells me is that abbas is mediocre bowler in non seaming conditons.

all you can say is Pakistani bowlers have been better in swing conditons. indian bowlers ar3 whether on every other type of wicket. flat? turning and bouncy wickets favour indian bowlers.

3-1 india.

 

[Kingpin786]

bumrah averages 25 plus vs England? are you sure about that?

All this tells me is that abbas is mediocre bowler in non seaming conditons.

all you can say is Pakistani bowlers have been better in swing conditons. indian bowlers ar3 whether on every other type of wicket. flat? turning and bouncy wickets favour indian bowlers.

3-1 india.

yes bumrah averages 25.9 vs england and there is another stat that shows mohammad shami averages 35+ in first innings

 

[Kingpin786]

hasan has done nothing to warrant anything worthy of note. He is a mediocre bowler. Atleast umesh is king in Asian conditions. He is untouchable there. hasan is a terrible bowler. he ha slpst his pace, swing ability and is more of a liability now.

not at all hasan is very good in asian conditions and slightly better than umesh in swinging conditions

 

[Kingpin786]

bumrah averages 25 plus vs England? are you sure about that?

All this tells me is that abbas is mediocre bowler in non seaming conditons.

all you can say is Pakistani bowlers have been better in swing conditons. indian bowlers ar3 whether on every other type of wicket. flat? turning and bouncy wickets favour indian bowlers.

3-1 india.

do you know when shami toured australia in 2014 to 2015 he averaged around 36 in tests and in his last tour in australia vs australia he averaged around 26 do you know what was the cause of that differnce, it was not quality of pitches that boosted shami's average but absence of smith and warner resulted his average drop from 36 to 26

 

[tyron_woodley]

do you know when shami toured australia in 2014 to 2015 he averaged around 36 in tests and in his last tour in australia vs australia he averaged around 26 do you know what was the cause of that differnce, it was not quality of pitches that boosted shami's average but absence of smith and warner resulted his average drop from 36 to 26

nope. pakistan played weak teams and still got hammered. Their bowling figures have been beyond mediocre barring shaheen. That's why you see so many changes. When have the performed vs australia, south africa and even new zeland?

Pakistan's bowling got decimated by n.z in u.a.e btw. India never lost at home to any team.

 

[tyron_woodley]

yes bumrah averages 25.9 vs england and there is another stat that shows mohammad shami averages 35+ in first innings

that's his first tour there. He only played 2 games or 3 max. We all saw how good he played vs australia and south africa.

Same thing was said about shami and bumrah in odi. Smith and warner's absence helped them win. What happened vs india in the recent series when smith and warner were pr3sent? bumrah and shami both played outstandingly well to dismantle a full strength Australian side. Mind you we were without 2 key players in that series.

 

[Kingpin786]

nope. pakistan played weak teams and still got hammered. Their bowling figures have been beyond mediocre barring shaheen. That's why you see so many changes. When have the performed vs australia, south africa and even new zeland?

Pakistan's bowling got decimated by n.z in u.a.e btw. India never lost at home to any team.

By the way abbass averages 14.xx against same australian team which was bullied by mumrah and shami and 16.xx against england against which bumrah averaged 25.9 and shami averaged 38+

 

[Kingpin786]

that's his first tour there. He only played 2 games or 3 max. We all saw how good he played vs australia and south africa.

Same thing was said about shami and bumrah in odi. Smith and warner's absence helped them win. What happened vs india in the recent series when smith and warner were pr3sent? bumrah and shami both played outstandingly well to dismantle a full strength Australian side. Mind you we were without 2 key players in that series.

Against south africa shaheen averaged 26.6 bumrah averaged 25.2 amir averaged 23.xx and you say pakistani bowlers did not perform well against sauth africa

 

[Kingpin786]

that's his first tour there. He only played 2 games or 3 max. We all saw how good he played vs australia and south africa.

Same thing was said about shami and bumrah in odi. Smith and warner's absence helped them win. What happened vs india in the recent series when smith and warner were pr3sent? bumrah and shami both played outstandingly well to dismantle a full strength Australian side. Mind you we were without 2 key players in that series.

Against south africa shaheen averaged 26.6 bumrah averaged 25.2 amir averaged 23.xx and you say pakistani bowlers did not perform well against sauth africa

 

[Kingpin786]

that's his first tour there. He only played 2 games or 3 max. We all saw how good he played vs australia and south africa.

Same thing was said about shami and bumrah in odi. Smith and warner's absence helped them win. What happened vs india in the recent series when smith and warner were pr3sent? bumrah and shami both played outstandingly well to dismantle a full strength Australian side. Mind you we were without 2 key players in that series.

this thread is about fast bowling not about batting and bowling combined and in recent odi series against australia bumrah took 1 wicket in three matches while shami took 7 wickets at an average of 29.7 and his economies were 7.7,6.3,and 7.57 besides indian batting was reason for wiinning that series not bowling

 

[Kingpin786]

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] these are bumrah's bowling averages in odis against top 6 teams excluding india
england 45.3
newzealand 36.84
australia 34.83
south africa 19.16
pakistan 48.75
an here are mohammad amir's stats in odis
england 43.50
australia 26.75
newzealand 33.15
south africa 50.25
india 32.62

you can see even amir averages better than bumrah against top teams except south africa actually bumrah is best bowler when it comes to bullying weak batting lineups and get better average

 

[MenInG]

[MENTION=151924]Kingpin786[/MENTION] and [MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION]

If you at some point want to rest your case, please do so and allow the other the final word on the argument - we will then open the floor to other posters

 

[Kingpin786]

So in my opinion in lois pakistani pacers are ahead in tests indian acers have slight edge but current indian attack is good one but not a great one thier stats are inflated by bullying teams which have weak batting lineups
Thats all from my side

 

[MenInG]

So in my opinion in lois pakistani pacers are ahead in tests indian acers have slight edge but current indian attack is good one but not a great one thier stats are inflated by bullying teams which have weak batting lineups
Thats all from my side

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] all yours now to conclude

 

[MenInG]

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] all yours now to conclude

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION]

Pls post your final argument and we will conclude this debate for others to add their remarks too

 

[tyron_woodley]

By the way abbass averages 14.xx against same australian team which was bullied by mumrah and shami and 16.xx against england against which bumrah averaged 25.9 and shami averaged 38+

huge differ3nce. India won away and at home. Pakistam won only at home. One game was a draw. You guys drew cause of your poor bowling.

abbas's figures away vs australia was 55. at home 14. He is as mediocre as they come.

 

[MenInG]

OK Thanks both.

Thread is now open for discussion by ALL members.

 

[tyron_woodley]

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] these are bumrah's bowling averages in odis against top 6 teams excluding india
england 45.3
newzealand 36.84
australia 34.83
south africa 19.16
pakistan 48.75
an here are mohammad amir's stats in odis
england 43.50
australia 26.75
newzealand 33.15
south africa 50.25
india 32.62

you can see even amir averages better than bumrah against top teams except south africa actually bumrah is best bowler when it comes to bullying weak batting lineups and get better average

.
Amir doesn't play test matches. his workload is less. The only reason bumrah averages that high vs n.z was cause he came back from injury. He has also only played 5 games vs pakistan.

like I said before. Stats isn't everything. philander averages better than wasim. so is he better than wasim?


No one would pick amir over n bumrah.

bumrah shami bhuvi would be our main 3.

who is Pakistan's top 3 bowlers in odi?


amir?
shaheen?
don't say shinwari. He hasn't played against anyone worthy.

 

[Mesozoic]

So in my opinion in lois pakistani pacers are ahead in tests indian acers have slight edge but current indian attack is good one but not a great one thier stats are inflated by bullying teams which have weak batting lineups
Thats all from my side

There's zero evidence on how Pakistani pacers are ahead of Indian ones in LOIs. They got murdered in each of their last series' in England and Australia and in the Asia cup vs India. They were quite average in
SAF and NZ as well last time around.

 

[Kingpin786]

.
Amir doesn't play test matches. his workload is less. The only reason bumrah averages that high vs n.z was cause he came back from injury. He has also only played 5 games vs pakistan.

like I said before. Stats isn't everything. philander averages better than wasim. so is he better than wasim?


No one would pick amir over n bumrah.

bumrah shami bhuvi would be our main 3.

who is Pakistan's top 3 bowlers in odi?


amir?
shaheen?
don't say shinwari. He hasn't played against anyone worthy.

it is fact that bumrah is good bowler but he is some times hyped too much and his stats against quality batting lineups prove my point

 

[Ab Fan]

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] these are bumrah's bowling averages in odis against top 6 teams excluding india
england 45.3
newzealand 36.84
australia 34.83
south africa 19.16
pakistan 48.75
an here are mohammad amir's stats in odis
england 43.50
australia 26.75
newzealand 33.15
south africa 50.25
india 32.62

you can see even amir averages better than bumrah against top teams except south africa actually bumrah is best bowler when it comes to bullying weak batting lineups and get better average

Amir is nowhere close to Bumrah as an ODI bowler. Just look at Bumrah's economy. It's phenomenal in this era after bowling plenty of overs in death overs.

In an era where Boult, Cummins, Rabada have economy over 5 which has to be considered good, Bumrah has it around 4.4. Both Bumrah and Shami are superior all formats bowler than Amir.

Amir averages 29 in ODI cricket with just 80 wickets. If he can have a full fledged ODI career, he will become an equivalent to Zaheer Khan who had 280 odi wickets at similar average but just like Amir he used to up his game in World Cups.

Bumrah and Shami are well ahead.

 

[ethan hunt]

Amir is nowhere close to Bumrah as an ODI bowler. Just look at Bumrah's economy. It's phenomenal in this era after bowling plenty of overs in death overs.

In an era where Boult, Cummins, Rabada have economy over 5 which has to be considered good, Bumrah has it around 4.4. Both Bumrah and Shami are superior all formats bowler than Amir.

Amir averages 29 in ODI cricket with just 80 wickets. If he can have a full fledged ODI career, he will become an equivalent to Zaheer Khan who had 280 odi wickets at similar average but just like Amir he used to up his game in World Cups.

Bumrah and Shami are well ahead.

Amir has starred in 2 world tournament wins for Pakistan in white ball cricket that pretty much seals his status in white ball cricket , the others have lot to prove.

 

[Ab Fan]

Amir has starred in 2 world tournament wins for Pakistan in white ball cricket that pretty much seals his status in white ball cricket , the others have lot to prove.

Neither of the two World tournament wins were as big as World Cup. So, talking about them is pointless. Amir is not remembered as a WT20 winner for Pakistan or a Champions Trophy winner. His legacy still remains intact as a youngster who deliberately bowled a no ball in pursuit of money which ruined his legacy.

Let's talk about Amir's stats:-

80 ODI wickets @29 avg
Test average of over 30 with only 117 wickets and retired.

These stats are irrelevant with no test legacy. He can be considered a very very good ODI bowler but to reach Zaheer Khan level, a WC winner, he needs to atleast take 200 wickets at about similar average.

 

[ethan hunt]

Neither of the two World tournament wins were as big as World Cup. So, talking about them is pointless. Amir is not remembered as a WT20 winner for Pakistan or a Champions Trophy winner. His legacy still remains intact as a youngster who deliberately bowled a no ball in pursuit of money which ruined his legacy.

Let's talk about Amir's stats:-

80 ODI wickets @29 avg
Test average of over 30 with only 117 wickets and retired.

These stats are irrelevant with no test legacy. He can be considered a very very good ODI bowler but to reach Zaheer Khan level, a WC winner, he needs to atleast take 200 wickets at about similar average.

Wrong . I am talking about his white ball legacy. He raised his game in the biggest India , Pakistan match since Mohali . Doesnt get bigger than a world tournament final between India and Pakistan , Bumrah choked in that game , plain and simple , while Amir delivered as he so often has done in big games.

 

[Kingpin786]

There's zero evidence on how Pakistani pacers are ahead of Indian ones in LOIs. They got murdered in each of their last series' in England and Australia and in the Asia cup vs India. They were quite average in
SAF and NZ as well last time around.

in last 10 odis indian pace attack averages 55.7 per wicket while in last 10 odis pakistan pace attack averages 26.18 per wicket now

 

[Kingpin786]

Amir is nowhere close to Bumrah as an ODI bowler. Just look at Bumrah's economy. It's phenomenal in this era after bowling plenty of overs in death overs.

In an era where Boult, Cummins, Rabada have economy over 5 which has to be considered good, Bumrah has it around 4.4. Both Bumrah and Shami are superior all formats bowler than Amir.

Amir averages 29 in ODI cricket with just 80 wickets. If he can have a full fledged ODI career, he will become an equivalent to Zaheer Khan who had 280 odi wickets at similar average but just like Amir he used to up his game in World Cups.

Bumrah and Shami are well ahead.

bumrah and shami struggle against quality batting lineups i

 

[Ab Fan]

bumrah and shami struggle against quality batting lineups i

In which format?

 

[Kingpin786]

In which format?

Bumrah in odis and shami in tests and odis

 

[Ab Fan]

Bumrah in odis and shami in tests and odis

In test cricket, I would like to tell you one major point. This is an era of HTBullying, everyone is a top dog at home and about fairly good away. Anderson, Broad, Boult, Rabada, Shami, Starc all average over 30 away from home.

For Shami though, the bigger problem is he has played very few tests at home and many away. Shami has played 16 tests at home and 33 away. In contrast, Boult or Starc or Anderson/Broad play about 40% of their tests at home.

If Shami would have played that many at home, his overall average in test would have been an even better 25. We do point out the inflated stats story of Ash-Jadeja that it's because they play so many tests in Asia and very few matches in SENA because they get rotated but this needs to be remembered for Shami also. His home average is 21. Umesh Yadav home average is 24.

This has been a major reason why I have rated Shami very high in our previous discussions too. He is not an ATG but certainly in the same league as Anderson, Broad, Boult, Philander, Wagner, Starc and Hazelwood. Everyone has disparity in their away stats. Even Rabada averages 30 away from home and you know what will his number be if you do nitpicking to it.

Ishant Sharma is another underrated case. He has been a phenomenal bowler away from home in past five years and has been doing well at home also. The Indian fast bowling has done brilliantly in past 5 years and the only reason India don't have series wins in SENA is because Indian batting simply hasnt done justice.

 

[Ab Fan]

Bumrah in odis and shami in tests and odis

As far as ODI cricket is concerned, ODIs today are simply not about nitpicking with the stats. It's the impact which matters and with plenty of bilaterals where 300 has become a casual total, you would hardly be able to come to conclusion by nitpicking of stats.

Bumrah in ODIs is among the best death overs bowler the game has seen. During the World Cup, he used to bowl almost five of his final overs in the 40th overs. It becomes very hard to talk about such bowlers performance by looking only at stats. His world cup performance was phenomenal and there were several instances from the South African game to England game and to Australia one when he hardly allowed opposition to get runs. This is why Bumrah's greatness in LO cricket is appreciated and rated highly. He had a bad two series post injury but that means zilch in an overall context condition being he gets back to his best.

He is the second best LO bowler of this generation and only behind Starc.

Coming to Shami,I am not sure how relevant do nitpicking of bilateral performances are but do you know his world cup performance overall? He averages 15 in the World Cup and is well ahead of any LOI bowler as far as WC average is concerned bar Starc. Trent Boult who is rated magnificently in ODIs averages about 21.

Over the course of 5-6 years, the best LOI bowlers have been Starc, Bumrah, Shami and Boult. Amir is clearly behind them because he doesn't have enough LO wickets and averages about 30 which is much lesser to even be in consideration.

 

[Kingpin786]

As far as ODI cricket is concerned, ODIs today are simply not about nitpicking with the stats. It's the impact which matters and with plenty of bilaterals where 300 has become a casual total, you would hardly be able to come to conclusion by nitpicking of stats.

Bumrah in ODIs is among the best death overs bowler the game has seen. During the World Cup, he used to bowl almost five of his final overs in the 40th overs. It becomes very hard to talk about such bowlers performance by looking only at stats. His world cup performance was phenomenal and there were several instances from the South African game to England game and to Australia one when he hardly allowed opposition to get runs. This is why Bumrah's greatness in LO cricket is appreciated and rated highly. He had a bad two series post injury but that means zilch in an overall context condition being he gets back to his best.

He is the second best LO bowler of this generation and only behind Starc.

Coming to Shami,I am not sure how relevant do nitpicking of bilateral performances are but do you know his world cup performance overall? He averages 15 in the World Cup and is well ahead of any LOI bowler as far as WC average is concerned bar Starc. Trent Boult who is rated magnificently in ODIs averages about 21.

Over the course of 5-6 years, the best LOI bowlers have been Starc, Bumrah, Shami and Boult. Amir is clearly behind them because he doesn't have enough LO wickets and averages about 30 which is much lesser to even be in consideration.

even in world cup he did not pick wickets against settled top orders for example finch and warner, and roy and baistow he picked up top order wickets of weak batting lineups or those who struggled through out the tournament for example guptil infact bumrah is yet to bowl a wordclass spell in odi cricket
likes of stark and boult have multiple wordclass spells amir has one that he bowled in ct 2017

 

[tyron_woodley]

even in world cup he did not pick wickets against settled top orders for example finch and warner, and roy and baistow he picked up top order wickets of weak batting lineups or those who struggled through out the tournament for example guptil infact bumrah is yet to bowl a wordclass spell in odi cricket
likes of stark and boult have multiple wordclass spells amir has one that he bowled in ct 2017

amir is a good odi bowler but you have to be out of your mind to choose him over bumrah. No one would except a Pakistani.

 

[tyron_woodley]

even in world cup he did not pick wickets against settled top orders for example finch and warner, and roy and baistow he picked up top order wickets of weak batting lineups or those who struggled through out the tournament for example guptil infact bumrah is yet to bowl a wordclass spell in odi cricket
likes of stark and boult have multiple wordclass spells amir has one that he bowled in ct 2017

shami averages better than amir in all formats. bumrah dint get wickets because batsmen are too afraid of him and refuse to play shots vs him. They defend vs him at any costs. That's called fear factor.

 

[tyron_woodley]

btw amir ouisde England and n.z where there is swing he is an absolute dud cannon fodder. He is a good exponent of swing conditons. I will give you that but bumrah is only 26. He can get even better with swing. Bumrah is almost on par with him I swing conditons and is vastly superior everywhere else.e

 

[Kingpin786]

shami averages better than amir in all formats. bumrah dint get wickets because batsmen are too afraid of him and refuse to play shots vs him. They defend vs him at any costs. That's called fear factor.

Well in case of bumrah it is not fear factor amir had similar patch before wc 2019 where his economy was good but he was not getting wickets shami has better stats because he bullies weak batting lineups i have mentioned his stats against better bowling lineps in my previous posts i hope you have seen those posts

 

[Pakpak]

btw amir ouisde England and n.z where there is swing he is an absolute dud cannon fodder. He is a good exponent of swing conditons. I will give you that but bumrah is only 26. He can get even better with swing. Bumrah is almost on par with him I swing conditons and is vastly superior everywhere else.e

He averages 28 outside England and Aus and NZ. Hardly a dud.

 

[Saurav]

Well in case of bumrah it is not fear factor amir had similar patch before wc 2019 where his economy was good but he was not getting wickets shami has better stats because he bullies weak batting lineups i have mentioned his stats against better bowling lineps in my previous posts i hope you have seen those posts

Shami averages 25 vs Eng and NZ,19 v SA ,only v Aus its 36

 

[Titan24]

Bumrah and Shami are really good in Tests and ODIs while Ishant has been good in tests for last 2-3 seasons but other than that the bench strength is mediocre.

Bhuveneshwar who is considered a top Indian bowler in white ball cricket averages 34.60 while Umesh who is part of the bench strength is pretty average as well.

I havent seen a lot of young pacers as well currently to get really excited about. Saini, Khaleel have not left much impact while Deepak Chahar who can be decent with new ball, is mediocre with old ball. Tyagi, Nagarkot, Mavi are quite far from international cricket by the looks of it and not sure how they will develop.

For Pakistan in tests Abbas has been really good in UAE, Eng and Pakistan and averages 20 after 18 matches with bowl, Shaheen is also growing pretty well in tests and currently averages 27. In ODIs Amir is ranked 7th and Shaheen has a tremendous record for his age along with some records already. Pakistan also has much better bench strength in my opinion and some young prospects to look forward to that have actually created some impact in international cricket.

So while Bumrah and Shami are top class bowlers, other than them there arent many which can be called top class and form rather an ordinary bench strength at the moment.

If we talk about starting pacers in tests, India is ahead at the moment as Pak's pace bowling is really inexperienced. In ODIs its a close call, India does have more experience and pacer have consistent performances behind them but Shaheen has really stood up and bench strength of Pak is also decent along with Amir leading the attack who has tremendous economy and can rise upto occasion.

 

[Titan24]

[MENTION=150610]tyron_woodley[/MENTION] these are bumrah's bowling averages in odis against top 6 teams excluding india
england 45.3
newzealand 36.84
australia 34.83
south africa 19.16
pakistan 48.75
an here are mohammad amir's stats in odis
england 43.50
australia 26.75
newzealand 33.15
south africa 50.25
india 32.62

you can see even amir averages better than bumrah against top teams except south africa actually bumrah is best bowler when it comes to bullying weak batting lineups and get better average

Bumrah has surprisingly ordinary average record against top sides in ODIs.

 

[Kingpin786]

Shami averages 25 vs Eng and NZ,19 v SA ,only v Aus its 36

well if you please provide his bowling averages against above mentioned teams in test cricket

 

[Titan24]

.
Philander averages better than wasim. so is he better than wasim?

Its different to determine a better pacer in tests as conditions vary hugely and overseas performances come into play big time especially when comparing two pacers with average under 25.

 

[Kingpin786]

Bumrah has surprisingly ordinary average record against top sides in ODIs.

i think india's tour of australia will decide how good a bowler bumrah is as his tests stats are inflated because of his performanes against windies and weak australia though he did good job against south africa and england but he was not able to dismantle these two as he did to former two

 

[Saurav]

well if you please provide his bowling averages against above mentioned teams in test cricket

That was ODIs since you talked about WC in your post.Got confused

Even in Tests,they are equal except against Eng where Amir has done well.But then he struggled v SL who were strong batting side before 2015 and recently beat SA in SA.Do tell me why performances vs them should be ignored

 

[tyron_woodley]

He averages 28 outside England and Aus and NZ. Hardly a dud.

that is a literally a dud. I am pretty sure she averages over 30 vs south africa.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Bumrah and Shami are really good in Tests and ODIs while Ishant has been good in tests for last 2-3 seasons but other than that the bench strength is mediocre.

Bhuveneshwar who is considered a top Indian bowler in white ball cricket averages 34.60 while Umesh who is part of the bench strength is pretty average as well.

I havent seen a lot of young pacers as well currently to get really excited about. Saini, Khaleel have not left much impact while Deepak Chahar who can be decent with new ball, is mediocre with old ball. Tyagi, Nagarkot, Mavi are quite far from international cricket by the looks of it and not sure how they will develop.

For Pakistan in tests Abbas has been really good in UAE, Eng and Pakistan and averages 20 after 18 matches with bowl, Shaheen is also growing pretty well in tests and currently averages 27. In ODIs Amir is ranked 7th and Shaheen has a tremendous record for his age along with some records already. Pakistan also has much better bench strength in my opinion and some young prospects to look forward to that have actually created some impact in international cricket.

So while Bumrah and Shami are top class bowlers, other than them there arent many which can be called top class and form rather an ordinary bench strength at the moment.

If we talk about starting pacers in tests, India is ahead at the moment as Pak's pace bowling is really inexperienced. In ODIs its a close call, India does have more experience and pacer have consistent performances behind them but Shaheen has really stood up and bench strength of Pak is also decent along with Amir leading the attack who has tremendous economy and can rise upto occasion.

You don't know that because india never needed to test their bench strength as much as pakistan did in odi or tests. All the top players have performed really well over the years. In tests india is well ahead.

Pakistan had no choice but to promote their youth to the starting 11 out of necessity as their main players dint perform consistently. This applies in both odi and tests.

India never tried out their youngsters yet. There is plenty of talent in indian fast bowling. It has changed tremendously post 2015. However to get integrated into the Indian side will be hard for atleast another 3 years. Saini still has barely played so it's difficult to judge. He actually did quite well overall despite what the averages suggest.

 

[Pakpak]

that is a literally a dud. I am pretty sure she averages over 30 vs south africa.

Eh? Since when it's 28 in such a batting heavy era being a dud?

I feel sorry for the one debating you

 

[sweep_shot]

Indian fast bowling has recently become good while Pakistani fast bowling was always good.

I have to say Pakistani fast bowling has been better historically.

India primarily wins a lot due to Kohli and Rohit.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Eh? Since when it's 28 in such a batting heavy era being a dud?

I feel sorry for the one debating you

wait? odi or tests? in odi amir averages 50 plus Australia away. 7
amir averages 55 in odi in the u.a.e
he averages 71 vs n z away since 2016
43 vs England
73 vs zimbawe
51 vs south africa

 

[tyron_woodley]

Indian fast bowling has recently become good while Pakistani fast bowling was always good.

I have to say Pakistani fast bowling has been better historically.

India primarily wins a lot due to Kohli and Rohit.

that's like pakistan primarily wins because of babar and haris sohail.

australia with warner and finch.

india bowling is better. period. India is top 2 in all formats because of their bowling strength. You can only dominate the rankings with good bowling.

t20 india is supposedly ranked 4th but that's rubbish. India is easily the strongest t20 team if they actually pick their right team.

 

[tyron_woodley]

wait? odi or tests? in odi amir averages 50 plus Australia away. 7
amir averages 55 in odi in the u.a.e
he averages 71 vs n z away since 2016
43 vs England
73 vs zimbawe
51 vs south africa

averages 30 vs australia which is good surprisingly.

 

[Kingpin786]

That was ODIs since you talked about WC in your post.Got confused

Even in Tests,they are equal except against Eng where Amir has done well.But then he struggled v SL who were strong batting side before 2015 and recently beat SA in SA.Do tell me why performances vs them should be ignored

no i talked about all formats i mentioned bumrah's stats particularly in odis

 

[tyron_woodley]

no i talked about all formats i mentioned bumrah's stats particularly in odis

bumrah has done well enough to be number 1 for a reason. if amir was that good he would have been number 1. I know who I would pick in my team between the two and his name definitely isn't amir.

At home on batting paradises he averages 30 plus sure. That's expected. N.z was another batting paradise.

amir stat pads by playing in viable conditions that are conducive to swing bowling.

look at his averages vs south africa, England and in u.a.e though. it's shocking.