"Playing pace was not a problem for Pakistani batsmen of 1970s" : Michael Holding

[Loralai]

Did anyone catch Michael Holding discussing Pakistani batsmen from 1970s playing against pace. He mentioned Miandad, Mushtaq Mohammad and Majid Khan all being very comfortable against high quality fast bowling? Interesting comment and makes you think about the extent to which our standards of batsmanship have declined.

No doubt there were many superb batsmen in those days even on Pakistan's domestic scene. Quality players like Nasir Valika, the late Azmat Rana, Talat Mirza, Aftab Baluch, the late Saleem Pervaiz and Agha Zahid were wonderful players of pace and were so light on their feet. The best of the lot was Shafiq Ahmed (who played six tests). Nowadays, each of these players would be a shoo-in in our starting eleven.

 

[Markhor]

Fewer teams led to hard, competitive cricket. I feel nowadays domestic matches are played with little intensity because there's so many one sided matches so players just go through the motions.

Sheffield Shield matches in the 90s were almost Test standard with so many guys on the bench who could easily have played for any other Test nation. That's what we need to aspire to but you won't get that level of competitiveness with a bloated system of 16 FC teams with only 3-4 teams of any real quality.

What also helped back then was county cricket exposure as a young player could gain experience of different tactics by rubbing shoulders with some of the best captains of the game, as well as playing in different conditions.

I'm hoping Wasim Khan can use his County contacts to help in that regard.

 

[Loralai]

Fewer teams led to hard, competitive cricket. I feel nowadays domestic matches are played with little intensity because there's so many one sided matches so players just go through the motions.

Sheffield Shield matches in the 90s were almost Test standard with so many guys on the bench who could easily have played for any other Test nation. That's what we need to aspire to but you won't get that level of competitiveness with a bloated system of 16 FC teams with only 3-4 teams of any real quality.

What also helped back then was county cricket exposure as a young player could gain experience of different tactics by rubbing shoulders with some of the best captains of the game, as well as playing in different conditions.

I'm hoping Wasim Khan can use his County contacts to help in that regard.

I agree to a certain extent - guys like Agha Zahid and Nasir Valika never played county cricket but domestic cricket in Pakistan was good enough at that stage to produce good quality batsmen who could have enjoyed international careers of substance. It is only because of real excellence they could not forge careers (after all, how can you replace likes of Sadiq Mohammad, Majid Khan, Mushtaq Mohammad, Wasim Raja, Mohsan Khan, Asif Iqbal, Miandad, Zaheer etc) It is therefore not surprising we were able to win matches. Pitches were actually better in Pakistan too and there were some really quick bowlers around in the first class leagues

Unfortunately county cricket standard is not what it used to be but I agree that it would still be a useful way of improving standards of our batsmanship which is currently at the poorest it has been in our history.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

We can create fast paced pitches in Pakistan. It's just that the curators have been so poorly treated that they have no reason to.

We should see that changing with new management.

 

[Theo_14]

Just shows how Pakistan cricket has declined over the years. The biggest concern is how consistent Pakistan cricket has been in delivering the same issues ie losing at least 4 wickets by 100 runs in test cricket, not chasing big scores and not delivering in big games that require a game plan etc.

Our 'rivals' India on the other hand are on a complete different level.

 

[Banter]

Both West Indies and Pakistan were able to take advantage of English county cricket as a finishing school for their top talents. Now that is not the case anymore, and both teams' dismal domestic cricket setup is reflected in their team's test performances.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

We can create fast paced pitches in Pakistan. It's just that the curators have been so poorly treated that they have no reason to.

We should see that changing with new management.

Hope those wickets do not lead to matches getting over in two days like last season. Also our bats get into tuk tuk mode as their standard batting mode.

 

[Loralai]

Both West Indies and Pakistan were able to take advantage of English county cricket as a finishing school for their top talents. Now that is not the case anymore, and both teams' dismal domestic cricket setup is reflected in their team's test performances.

Agree to a certain extent but many Pakistani batsmen who never played county cricket were excellent players of pace.

Haroon Rashid was such a good player of pace that after a century in Queensland even Viv Richards praised his technique (http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1970S/1976-77/PAK_IN_AUS/PAK_QLD_08-10JAN1977.html)

 

[KB]

The quality of Pakistan’s batting was certainly superior in the 1970s compared with the current lamentable standards.

Nevertheless, even in the 1970s Pakistani batting was susceptible in crunch situations. It was in this decade that the appellation ‘Panickstan’ was first used after a 4th innings collapse in Australia, which was by no means an isolated even in the decade. It is in fact a theme that reappears in Imran Khan's autobiography.

That this tendency towards batting vulnerability in pressing circumstances has existed across the generations suggests something deeper in its cricket structure or cricket culture which predisposes its batting to collapse like mud huts in a monsoon.

 

[Abid Z]

Did anyone catch Michael Holding discussing Pakistani batsmen from 1970s playing against pace. He mentioned Miandad, Mushtaq Mohammad and Majid Khan all being very comfortable against high quality fast bowling? Interesting comment and makes you think about the extent to which our standards of batsmanship have declined.

No doubt there were many superb batsmen in those days even on Pakistan's domestic scene. Quality players like Nasir Valika, the late Azmat Rana, Talat Mirza, Aftab Baluch, the late Saleem Pervaiz and Agha Zahid were wonderful players of pace and were so light on their feet. The best of the lot was Shafiq Ahmed (who played six tests). Nowadays, each of these players would be a shoo-in in our starting eleven.

Yes, he was mentioning the ability of former pak players being able to play fast bowling well due to their experience on fast home pitches which have now disappeared. He of course didn’t mention that cricket was a much smaller sport and county cricket had a huge hand in helping overseas players develop their game but it’s obviously a factor.

Nowadays everybody says pitches are flatter and more batting friendly so batsmen aren’t able to develop their techniques as well as those in the past and are therefore more vulnerable to bounce and lateral movement. Nothing much to disagree with there.

 

[Abdullah719]

Again reiterating the same point. Says Karachi pitches used to have decent pace and bounce.

 

[Loralai]

Pakistani batsmen have been found all at sea against quality fast bowlers like Cummins and Starc. Do not be misled by the high batting averages recorded during this series. Players like Imam and Fawad simply not up to international standard. Once again I come back to this thread and comments made by Michael Holding.

We once had such talent that likes of Shafiq Ahmed and Nasir Valika could not get places in Pakistan team, and fearless batsmen like Majid Khan and Waseem Raja ready to take on fast bowlers. How times change.

 

[Kianig89]

Indeed it is Pak batsmen have been schooled by Cummins n Co.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Pakistani batsmen have been found all at sea against quality fast bowlers like Cummins and Starc. Do not be misled by the high batting averages recorded during this series. Players like Imam and Fawad simply not up to international standard. Once again I come back to this thread and comments made by Michael Holding.

We once had such talent that likes of Shafiq Ahmed and Nasir Valika could not get places in Pakistan team, and fearless batsmen like Majid Khan and Waseem Raja ready to take on fast bowlers. How times change.

LOL you guys love talking in truisms because its much easier than actually analyzing things as they are. The 70s were 50 years ago. The players of that era were a completely different breed. They grew up in a completely different system and played cricket much differently than it is today.

But to say that they were somehow the embodiment of everything Pakistan cricket should be is a gross over exaggeration. For one thing, none of the players you mentioned were as good as Babar Azam. And for all their fearlessness, most of them were snakes who consistently bit each other's backs to get to the captaincy. Everyone knows full well how all the senior players banded against a young Javed Miandad when he became captain or how Mushtaq was ousted despite being one of the most naturally gifted and tactically sharp captains Pakistan ever had.

The entire team was about Karachi-Lahore. And this ugliness would rear its head consistently in selection. It wasn't like today when players from various corners of the country were part of the team and the national set-up.

And since you are so wistful about 1970s, let me remind you that Pakistan won one away away series in the entire decade. And that too in New Zealand against a third-tier New Zealand side that was probably the worst test team in the world at the time.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Pakistani batsmen have been found all at sea against quality fast bowlers like Cummins and Starc. Do not be misled by the high batting averages recorded during this series. Players like Imam and Fawad simply not up to international standard. Once again I come back to this thread and comments made by Michael Holding.

We once had such talent that likes of Shafiq Ahmed and Nasir Valika could not get places in Pakistan team, and fearless batsmen like Majid Khan and Waseem Raja ready to take on fast bowlers. How times change.

LOL you guys love talking in truisms because its much easier than actually analyzing things as they are. The 70s were 50 years ago. The players of that era were a completely different breed. They grew up in a completely different system and played cricket much differently than it is today.

But to say that they were somehow the embodiment of everything Pakistan cricket should be is a gross over exaggeration. For one thing, none of the players you mentioned were as good as Babar Azam. And for all their fearlessness, most of them were snakes who consistently bit each other's backs to get to the captaincy. Everyone knows full well how all the senior players banded against a young Javed Miandad when he became captain or how Mushtaq was ousted despite being one of the most naturally gifted and tactically sharp captains Pakistan ever had.

The entire team was about Karachi-Lahore. And this ugliness would rear its head consistently in selection. It wasn't like today when players from various corners of the country were part of the team and the national set-up.

And since you are so wistful about 1970s, let me remind you that Pakistan won two away away series in the entire decade. Both in New Zealand against a third-tier New Zealand side that was probably the worst test team in the world at the time. Failed to win two series in Australia, two series in England, failed to win in West Indies.

So much for being fearless against pace....

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

LOL you guys love talking in truisms because its much easier than actually analyzing things as they are. The 70s were 50 years ago. The players of that era were a completely different breed. They grew up in a completely different system and played cricket much differently than it is today.

But to say that they were somehow the embodiment of everything Pakistan cricket should be is a gross over exaggeration. For one thing, none of the players you mentioned were as good as Babar Azam. And for all their fearlessness, most of them were snakes who consistently bit each other's backs to get to the captaincy. Everyone knows full well how all the senior players banded against a young Javed Miandad when he became captain or how Mushtaq was ousted despite being one of the most naturally gifted and tactically sharp captains Pakistan ever had.

The entire team was about Karachi-Lahore. And this ugliness would rear its head consistently in selection. It wasn't like today when players from various corners of the country were part of the team and the national set-up.

And since you are so wistful about 1970s, let me remind you that Pakistan won one away away series in the entire decade. And that too in New Zealand against a third-tier New Zealand side that was probably the worst test team in the world at the time.

delete

 

[The Scorer]

Imperceptibly Pakistan batsman have become defensive over the years, they use paly pace very well, Majid, Zaheer, Haroon Rashid. Yes they sometimes collapsed but they could also destroy bowling. They have fallen under the mistaken view that to be "professional" you have to be defensive, to avoid collapses you have to be defensive. The prominence of figures like Misbah and Azhar ali has not helped. Also the terrible wickets in Dubai where all you have to do is bat attritionally has ingrained bad habits into the batsman. And left them to think they are better than they are.

They need to learn of play on good wickets and start playing shots again. Otherwise every time they play against a team with good fast bowlers on a good pitch they will be rolled over.

 

[Markhor]

LOL you guys love talking in truisms because its much easier than actually analyzing things as they are. The 70s were 50 years ago. The players of that era were a completely different breed. They grew up in a completely different system and played cricket much differently than it is today.

But to say that they were somehow the embodiment of everything Pakistan cricket should be is a gross over exaggeration. For one thing, none of the players you mentioned were as good as Babar Azam. And for all their fearlessness, most of them were snakes who consistently bit each other's backs to get to the captaincy. Everyone knows full well how all the senior players banded against a young Javed Miandad when he became captain or how Mushtaq was ousted despite being one of the most naturally gifted and tactically sharp captains Pakistan ever had.

The entire team was about Karachi-Lahore. And this ugliness would rear its head consistently in selection. It wasn't like today when players from various corners of the country were part of the team and the national set-up.

And since you are so wistful about 1970s, let me remind you that Pakistan won two away away series in the entire decade. Both in New Zealand against a third-tier New Zealand side that was probably the worst test team in the world at the time. Failed to win two series in Australia, two series in England, failed to win in West Indies.

So much for being fearless against pace....

I agree there's a tendency to romanticise the glorious past, which wasn't as glorious as we assume. However I must take issue with the bolded. Drawing 1-1 away to Australia in 1977 under Mushtaq remains our best ever Test series result in Australia.

That Australian team with G Chappell, Lillee and Thomson hammered England in the 1974 Ashes and beat world champions West Indies 5-1 in 1975/76. Failing to beat a Packer-depleted Australia in 1979 was disappointing - though Sarfraz's MCG performance is unforgettable.

Pakistan bravely fought in the West Indies in 1977 when they began putting together their fearsome pace attack, and should've beaten them in the 1st Test (and drawn the series) but for appalling umpiring as WI held out in their 2nd inns 9 wickets down. In Mushtaq's PP interview, he said umpire Douglas Hang Sue told him he couldn't give Pakistan any decisions as he was scared for his life.

Beating New Zealand in 1979 was an excellent achievement. That team with Richard Hadlee would go unbeaten in home series in the 1980s (with some help from Fred Goodall and co).

Overall though, yes given the talent that side had, Pakistan underachieved in the 70s with a backdrop of intrigues and politicking. However we must divide the 70s into Intikhab Alam's era and Mushtaq Mohammad's.

Inti was a defensive and unimaginative captain, who only remained in post as he was, as we've seen for decades, an establishment yes-man. The bottle jobs in England 1971 and Australia 1972/73 was criminal !

Mushy however began the era of more aggressive, flamboyant Pakistan cricket. Babar for all his gifts, does not compare to Javed Miandad or Zaheer Abbas vs spin, they butchered India's great spinners famously in 1978/79. Compare Mushy's intent in overseeing two T20 style chases in that series to Babar's negativity vs Australia.

Finally, despite Javed Miandad's tactical acumen, was always an awful man manager hence was mutinied against not once but twice in 1982 and 1993.

 

[Sarwar89]

I agree there's a tendency to romanticise the glorious past, which wasn't as glorious as we assume. However I must take issue with the bolded. Drawing 1-1 away to Australia in 1977 under Mushtaq remains our best ever Test series result in Australia.

That Australian team with G Chappell, Lillee and Thomson hammered England in the 1974 Ashes and beat world champions West Indies 5-1 in 1975/76. Failing to beat a Packer-depleted Australia in 1979 was disappointing - though Sarfraz's MCG performance is unforgettable.

Pakistan bravely fought in the West Indies in 1977 when they began putting together their fearsome pace attack, and should've beaten them in the 1st Test (and drawn the series) but for appalling umpiring as WI held out in their 2nd inns 9 wickets down. In Mushtaq's PP interview, he said umpire Douglas Hang Sue told him he couldn't give Pakistan any decisions as he was scared for his life.

Beating New Zealand in 1979 was an excellent achievement. That team with Richard Hadlee would go unbeaten in home series in the 1980s (with some help from Fred Goodall and co).

Overall though, yes given the talent that side had, Pakistan underachieved in the 70s with a backdrop of intrigues and politicking. However we must divide the 70s into Intikhab Alam's era and Mushtaq Mohammad's.

Inti was a defensive and unimaginative captain, who only remained in post as he was, as we've seen for decades, an establishment yes-man. The bottle jobs in England 1971 and Australia 1972/73 was criminal !

Mushy however began the era of more aggressive, flamboyant Pakistan cricket. Babar for all his gifts, does not compare to Javed Miandad or Zaheer Abbas vs spin, they butchered India's great spinners famously in 1978/79. Compare Mushy's intent in overseeing two T20 style chases in that series to Babar's negativity vs Australia.

Finally, despite Javed Miandad's tactical acumen, was always an awful man manager hence was mutinied against not once but twice in 1982 and 1993.

Within Test cricket in 70 odd years we have only had 2 or 3 tactically astute captains

Kardar ( very good)
Mushtaq muhammad ( excellent)
Imran ( excellent)
Salim malik ( very good)

If my memory serves me well i think all of them never lost home test series as captain

 

[andy0204]

Within Test cricket in 70 odd years we have only had 2 or 3 tactically astute captains

Kardar ( very good)
Mushtaq muhammad ( excellent)
Imran ( excellent)
Salim malik ( very good)

If my memory serves me well i think all of them never lost home test series as captain

I would like to add Akram as he also never lost a test series at home as captain.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I agree there's a tendency to romanticise the glorious past, which wasn't as glorious as we assume. However I must take issue with the bolded. Drawing 1-1 away to Australia in 1977 under Mushtaq remains our best ever Test series result in Australia.

That Australian team with G Chappell, Lillee and Thomson hammered England in the 1974 Ashes and beat world champions West Indies 5-1 in 1975/76. Failing to beat a Packer-depleted Australia in 1979 was disappointing - though Sarfraz's MCG performance is unforgettable.

Pakistan bravely fought in the West Indies in 1977 when they began putting together their fearsome pace attack, and should've beaten them in the 1st Test (and drawn the series) but for appalling umpiring as WI held out in their 2nd inns 9 wickets down. In Mushtaq's PP interview, he said umpire Douglas Hang Sue told him he couldn't give Pakistan any decisions as he was scared for his life.

Beating New Zealand in 1979 was an excellent achievement. That team with Richard Hadlee would go unbeaten in home series in the 1980s (with some help from Fred Goodall and co).

Overall though, yes given the talent that side had, Pakistan underachieved in the 70s with a backdrop of intrigues and politicking. However we must divide the 70s into Intikhab Alam's era and Mushtaq Mohammad's.

Inti was a defensive and unimaginative captain, who only remained in post as he was, as we've seen for decades, an establishment yes-man. The bottle jobs in England 1971 and Australia 1972/73 was criminal !

Mushy however began the era of more aggressive, flamboyant Pakistan cricket. Babar for all his gifts, does not compare to Javed Miandad or Zaheer Abbas vs spin, they butchered India's great spinners famously in 1978/79. Compare Mushy's intent in overseeing two T20 style chases in that series to Babar's negativity vs Australia.

Finally, despite Javed Miandad's tactical acumen, was always an awful man manager hence was mutinied against not once but twice in 1982 and 1993.

I agree that the 1977 draw in Australia was a terrific performance...easily our best ever in Australia, especially because it led to the coming of age of Imran Khan as a bowler and showed everyone why Mushtaq was such an outstanding captain. The drawn series in West Indies was also a great achievement albeit not nearly as great as the 1988 drawn series. But at the end of the day, Pakistan did not win either series and for all the talent and flamboyance of that 70s side they could not win where it mattered most.

And I don't agree re: New Zealand because up until that point New Zealand had been a pretty pathetic side. Probably the worst in the world at the time. I don't think they even won a single series in the entire decade. It was only after the Pakistan series that they began to experience a resurgence at home which continued into 80s and where they had Hadlee really starting to come into his own, along with a whole host of guys (none of whose names I remember besides John Wright) who did well in New Zealand.

I agree completely on Inti---that probably explains why he has managed to stay involved in Pakistan cricket for so long---but I did not compare Babar to Miandad or the Asian Bradman, who were (and are) in a league of their own. And they didn't just butcher India's spinners in that series...they pretty much ended the careers of Bedi and Prasanna, who were never the same after the mauling they received in that series. I don't think Prasanna even played a test match after that series.

But I have to disagree again re: Miandad. The senior players never gave him a chance to become a man manager because they never gave him a chance to be captain. He could have been groomed into a proper leader but all the toxicity that surrounded him never allowed that to happen. I am fairly certain that the entire experience had a massive impact on a young Miandad at the time and massively shaped the blunt, unapologetic, street-fighter type of an individual he went on to become later in his career. And the fact that there was another mutiny in 1993 isn't necessarily a damning indictment of him because even then the team was full of snakes and characterless cheats...guys who would go on to define themselves as the next generation of highly skilled and gifted underperformers.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Within Test cricket in 70 odd years we have only had 2 or 3 tactically astute captains

Kardar ( very good)
Mushtaq muhammad ( excellent)
Imran ( excellent)
Salim malik ( very good)

If my memory serves me well i think all of them never lost home test series as captain

Kardar was probably the greatest leader in the history of Pakistan cricket but I am not sure how good he was tactically. I would say the same for Imran. Without Miandad, Imran would never have been as effective or as successful as he sometimes was.

Mushtaq was a complete captain; tactically astute and a great leader. Salim Malik was probably one of the most naturally gifted Pakistani cricketers ever. But he was too much of a snake and characterless cheat to take his career seriously, let alone whatever limited time he had with the captaincy. But he could have been a very good captain if he didn't have such glaring character flaws.

The biggest and most glaring omission from your list is Misbah-ul-Haq. Another outstanding leader, albeit not always the sharpest tactically.

 

[topspin]

Pakistan's batting was at it's peak in the 70s.

I can bet bottom dollar that Misbah would never have made it during this era. We're literally scraping the barrel for crease occupiers (Misbah, Azhar Ali, Imam, Fawad Alam etc).

 

[Sarwar89]

Kardar was probably the greatest leader in the history of Pakistan cricket but I am not sure how good he was tactically. I would say the same for Imran. Without Miandad, Imran would never have been as effective or as successful as he sometimes was.

Mushtaq was a complete captain; tactically astute and a great leader. Salim Malik was probably one of the most naturally gifted Pakistani cricketers ever. But he was too much of a snake and characterless cheat to take his career seriously, let alone whatever limited time he had with the captaincy. But he could have been a very good captain if he didn't have such glaring character flaws.

The biggest and most glaring omission from your list is Misbah-ul-Haq. Another outstanding leader, albeit not always the sharpest tactically.

Agree on Misbah somehow i skipped his name , never lost in UAE and got the best from a squad which was not gifted with highest skills.

I think some players around Salim Malik were not clean either.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Agree on Misbah somehow i skipped his name , never lost in UAE and got the best from a squad which was not gifted with highest skills.

I think some players around Salim Malik were not clean either.

Yeah. And the fact that he dragged Pakistan out of the depths of the 2010 spot-fixing scandal makes it all the more special.

They weren't. And many were lucky to get away. But I don't think anyone can deny that Salim Malik was one of the most crooked ones of them all.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I remember during a trip to India in the 80s, I got the chance to watch highlights of Majid Khan on video cassette and was thinking boy he has all the time to play his shots and also looked very stylish.... Even though I wasn't much into cricket back then he caught my imagination and became a favorite of mine...