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PM Imran Khan asks Western Governments to penalize abuse against Prophet PBUH
- Thread starter MenInG
- Start date
The West also has a commitment to free speech. "Holocaust denial" is indeed a crime in many Western European countries, and is indeed a lessening of free speech. It was also an event in which 6 million specifically targeted people died, hence the laws.
If criticism or making fun of religious figures is also disallowed, it will mark another weakening of free speech protections. Other religions will demand equal protections. Jim Carrey portrayed God Ganesh in a sex act in an SNL skit, would that also be banned?
Cpt. Rishwat
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Imran is not in a position to tell hindus what they should find offensive, he is speaking on behalf of Muslims here. Western govts will ultimately decide their own course anyway.
rockyboy2018
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What is the reaction like in Arab countries? Did they shut down French consulates over there?
Yes, but when restricting free speech Western governments also have to take into account the fact that many of their citizens are Christians, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists etc. Pretty sure IK knows that when he asks Western governments to change their laws.
Nikhil_cric
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False equivalence. I'm sure you are allowed to criticise the Jewish religion, prophets etc.
topspin
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Nope. It's illegal as it falls under the category of anti-Semitism.
Nikhil_cric
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My bad . I take it back. That's quite disappointing to hear.
KingKhanWC
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Its worse than this.
Now in many European countries, criticising Israeli policies will land you in the anti-semitism pond.
Imran makes a fair request, as Islamaphobia is only causing huge divide in the world , along with hatred & discrimination against people who follow the Prophet(pbuh). Nobody should use freedom of speech to spread hate but only to state historical or scientific facts.
There are not laws against anti-semitism. It is not illegal to criticize Yahweh etc.
Bigboii
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Oh man sometimes I feel like giving him one of those punjabi curses...
Shut up and work make sure the economy grows and only than will people care about what you have to say
Other than that you make the whole of Pakistan look foolish
, last time I checked most world leaders don't pull the twitter stunts this man pulls
Shut up and work make sure the economy grows and only than will people care about what you have to say
Other than that you make the whole of Pakistan look foolish
, last time I checked most world leaders don't pull the twitter stunts this man pulls
James
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Mockery of Moses, Yahweh etc is not illegal.
Antisemitism becomes illegal if it is proven to be an aggravating factor in a crime, such as an assault or an act of vandalism.
James
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What you were told is not strictly true. (See my post above.)
PetroDollars
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if anti-semitism is illegal then how comes so many conspiracy theorists use it in the UK? especially on YT
That’s not true. You can and it has been done. You can make fun or criticize jewish religion. Books have been written in it. Films have been made on it. You can’t deny the Holocaust. Which I believe is not correct. But you can make fun of religion Judaism or Christianity. Has anyone not seen life of Brian
Savak
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Mocking and making fun of all religions should be declared a criminal act. Every freedom is eventually subject to certain restrictions. No one should have the right to deeply injure and hurt the religious sentiments of others.
Richard Dawkins criticizes the god of Jews openly including on live tv. I don’t think it is illegal to criticize Jewish God or their stories. Considering how much Europeans have done bad to Jews, they take extra care so as to not create any unwanted hatred towards them. Same goes for Black people too. White people bend over backwards to show how much they have changed since their days of oppression a few centuries ago.
Imran is pretty naive. Why would any non-Muslim care about Prophet PBUH and Islam? To them, prophet PBUH is just another historical figure open for criticism. Same should apply to everyone.
Imran is pretty naive. Why would any non-Muslim care about Prophet PBUH and Islam? To them, prophet PBUH is just another historical figure open for criticism. Same should apply to everyone.
Hindus consider Cow as sacred. But that does not stop non-Hindus from killing it and consuming its meat. We all will laugh if Modi requests all nations to respect cow and stop cow slaughter.
Mocking should be avoided, not sure if it should be illegal. Sometimes criticism becomes sarcasm, which is mocking.
It is essential to allow criticism of religions, and religion has often been a tool of the elite to perpetuate inequality.
Imran should tell Muslims to be indifferent to things that they believe are nuisance, only then these noises will become irrelevant. The more Muslims react to such poke , there will be somebody or the other who will either play them out or take it as a challenge.
Conversely he can ask Muslim right wing clerics in his country and across the Islamic world to stop making fun and belittling of other religions and set an example for others to follow.
Conversely he can ask Muslim right wing clerics in his country and across the Islamic world to stop making fun and belittling of other religions and set an example for others to follow.
miandadrules
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The fact of the matter is, all this crying offence is purely to deflect criticism of Muhammad. Much of the so called “mocking” is highlighting what it states in widely accepted Islamic cannon.
Believers will cry offence when you highlight from Islamic sources what they say about the life of Muhammad.
But to know any of this, you’d have to actually study what you so proudly proclaim to be true.
The fact of the matter is, that overwhelming majority of Muslims haven’t even read the primary text once, in a language they understand.
I’m not saying studying the material, simply to have read it once.
Believers will cry offence when you highlight from Islamic sources what they say about the life of Muhammad.
But to know any of this, you’d have to actually study what you so proudly proclaim to be true.
The fact of the matter is, that overwhelming majority of Muslims haven’t even read the primary text once, in a language they understand.
I’m not saying studying the material, simply to have read it once.
Varun
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This. He should ask the populace to be a little more secure in their outlook, and not react when a random Hans from Denmark goes on a social media power trip.
Also sorry to say, Pakistan doesn't have much clout in these matters. Leave it to the likes of Saudi Arabia or Turkey to do the heavy lifting if this indeed is a concern.
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All those wishing to refer to the Prophet of Islam - are asked to Add PBUH at end of his name.
This is a polite request.
This is a polite request.
SpiritOf1903
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Saudi Arabia, good joke. Why can't Imran have a view.?.
Meanwhile Hindu-phobia is getting recognition now, though clearly not all religions have followers as zealous as Muslims
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/17/alabama-yoga-ban-public-schools-christian-groups
OMB
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Alabama christian group is worried about yoga? Lol
Cpt. Rishwat
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If they don't care about Prophet PBUH and Islam, why do they feel the need to insult or caricature him? It is worth pointing out that insulting Islam or criticising it as a religion is not considered taboo for Muslims. The line seems to be drawn at mocking the Prophet PBUH himself.
Varun
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Yes. They have some actual clout they can deploy: "Hey Netherlands, will you cut that out? No? Fine, no oil for you starting tomorrow. Go cry to Russia and see what happens."
What can Pakistan do?
Major
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Why is Imran comparing the tragedy of Holocaust with criticism of Islam?
The problem with Imran and most muslims are is that not they cannot tolerate abuse, they cannot tolerate criticism of the religion and that's quite narrow minded.
Every personality and everything will have supporters and critics alike. People like Einstein, Newton have critics. Our religious personalities are much bigger than that, and whether we like it or not we will have to live with such critics.
Only thing you could do is not highlight them.
Now comparing the Holocaust with criticism of Islam doesn't make any sense.
Holocaust is an event that took place. Now one thing that makes us aware of Holocaust is due to media. Movies and TV shows depict those events that educate us about the Holocaust.
Islam and its important personalities aren't allowed (by todays religious fanatics) to be depicted in media, how do you expect the west or others to learn about it?
People dont read text info now adays. Plus, had the holocaust be told in books, no one would had cared about it.
You cannot allow the depiction (for good cause) of Islamic personalities, yet you cry about the holocaust being respected. It gets respected due to its knowledge being shared through media.
The problem with Imran and most muslims are is that not they cannot tolerate abuse, they cannot tolerate criticism of the religion and that's quite narrow minded.
Every personality and everything will have supporters and critics alike. People like Einstein, Newton have critics. Our religious personalities are much bigger than that, and whether we like it or not we will have to live with such critics.
Only thing you could do is not highlight them.
Now comparing the Holocaust with criticism of Islam doesn't make any sense.
Holocaust is an event that took place. Now one thing that makes us aware of Holocaust is due to media. Movies and TV shows depict those events that educate us about the Holocaust.
Islam and its important personalities aren't allowed (by todays religious fanatics) to be depicted in media, how do you expect the west or others to learn about it?
People dont read text info now adays. Plus, had the holocaust be told in books, no one would had cared about it.
You cannot allow the depiction (for good cause) of Islamic personalities, yet you cry about the holocaust being respected. It gets respected due to its knowledge being shared through media.
Major
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because it draws attention.
Its not about mocking the Prophet of Islam only, other Prophets also get mocked aswell.
It is done to get the attention of others.
Family guy does this alot. Family guy makes fun of Jesus on purpose for attention and even goes one step further by asking people to ok write your angry letters on the following address.
You stop giving them the attention it dies out.
South Park made cartoons of the Prophet and made jokes about it. Yet, it couldnt get the attention it wanted and it died out. Once the attention isn't gather, they dont poke more towards it as it kills the purpose than.
SpiritOf1903
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They're already losing money on oil.
Varun
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Let's not even start talking about Pakistan's finances.
SpiritOf1903
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Does Pakistan have major trade agreements with aforementioned countries?
Varun
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I don't know where you're going with this.
My simple point was Pakistan's hurt feelings will be restricted to tweets. If you want to hit them where it hurts, you're best off leaving it to the countries with clubs in hand.
I'm not going to mention the C-word. Needless to say, there won't be any sentiments expressed against them - tweets or otherwise. And yes, you have major trade agreements with the country in question.
Nope. In some Arab countries (you can guess which), it is actually illegal to push for a boycott of French goods and people are encouraged to support France
Hint: it is the same country which is now the only country in the world where it is illegal to call Israel an occupier
Cpt. Rishwat
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I was answering guna who was claiming that non-Muslims don't care about Islam or the Prophet PBUH. So if they want to draw attention to it, would appear they do care. They care that Muslims care if you can fathom that.
Local.Dada
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What Imran Khan should be saying to the Muslims of the world (since he is the self appointed representative) is
“The prophet (pbuh) is one of the greatest humans ever to walk this planet. Just because some idiot says something offensive, it doesn’t devalue the message delivered by the prophet (pbuh) or Islam. In fact this is the challenge to the Muslim youth to become role models ,influencers and to show the world how Islamic values and the prophet (pbuh) have influenced them to become these outstanding world citizens which makes people look at Islam with glowing respect and admiration”
Now that would have been a great message. This is pointless because don’t think anyone sees Imran as a voice of Islam.
“The prophet (pbuh) is one of the greatest humans ever to walk this planet. Just because some idiot says something offensive, it doesn’t devalue the message delivered by the prophet (pbuh) or Islam. In fact this is the challenge to the Muslim youth to become role models ,influencers and to show the world how Islamic values and the prophet (pbuh) have influenced them to become these outstanding world citizens which makes people look at Islam with glowing respect and admiration”
Now that would have been a great message. This is pointless because don’t think anyone sees Imran as a voice of Islam.
When the west didn't listen before there is no reason why they will do so now. Real question is why does IK think they will listen to him? Only way for Muslim countries is to build there economy so powerful that banning western will have great effect on them. Burning your own country is not the answer.
IK continues to disappoint.
No religion, ideology or historical figure is beyond reproach. Of course 'but the Holocaust...!' will always be used, but there's two things to say to that. Firstly, I am against it there being laws against denying it and whatever, but at least that is combating deliberate misinformation, usually by the far right (terrorism), which most users would be against. Secondly, it is a verifiable historical event. It is not the same as mocking a historical event that some people happen to revere.
He needs to stop this nonsense and focus on extremism in Pakistan.
No religion, ideology or historical figure is beyond reproach. Of course 'but the Holocaust...!' will always be used, but there's two things to say to that. Firstly, I am against it there being laws against denying it and whatever, but at least that is combating deliberate misinformation, usually by the far right (terrorism), which most users would be against. Secondly, it is a verifiable historical event. It is not the same as mocking a historical event that some people happen to revere.
He needs to stop this nonsense and focus on extremism in Pakistan.
maverick85
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Good for IK. He's calling it out and speaking against it. Although the power dynamics on the world stage is the least to be desired..
maverick85
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The context used are caricatures othering the Jews during the lead up to the Holocaust. All students in the UK learn this in high school level history. We're shown newspaper excerpts ran at the time showing caricatures of Jews with features that are untasteful.
SpiritOf1903
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Thanks for the long-winded reply. Admiral you spend do much time on a Pakistani forum to mock the nation. Bravo.
The economies of Saudi, Turkey, UAE, Qatar, Malaysia, Bahrain are pretty good. I am not very sure though they will like to ban the Western world.
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The government has decided to bring a unanimous resolution on Monday (today) against the publication of blasphemous caricatures in the Western countries.
For this purpose, opposition Chamber was contacted through the speaker's office.
Sources said that the matter would be considered in the Business Advisory Committee and a final draft would be prepared with the signatures of the government and opposition members. Later, the resolution will be tabled in the lower house.
Before the committee meeting, all opposition members will be given a briefing.
The Business Advisory Committee will meet at 1pm on Monday (today) after which the National Assembly meeting will be held at 2pm.
After the passage of the resolution, the lawmakers will be given a limited time period to express their views.
The NA Secretariat has also issued a 12-point agenda for the meeting which also includes two call attention notices.
NA Speaker Asad Qaiser has also summoned Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid to give a policy statement on the law and order situation in the country in the wake of Namoos-e-Risalat matter.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2295541/resolution-against-blasphemous-sketches-to-be-tabled-in-na
For this purpose, opposition Chamber was contacted through the speaker's office.
Sources said that the matter would be considered in the Business Advisory Committee and a final draft would be prepared with the signatures of the government and opposition members. Later, the resolution will be tabled in the lower house.
Before the committee meeting, all opposition members will be given a briefing.
The Business Advisory Committee will meet at 1pm on Monday (today) after which the National Assembly meeting will be held at 2pm.
After the passage of the resolution, the lawmakers will be given a limited time period to express their views.
The NA Secretariat has also issued a 12-point agenda for the meeting which also includes two call attention notices.
NA Speaker Asad Qaiser has also summoned Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid to give a policy statement on the law and order situation in the country in the wake of Namoos-e-Risalat matter.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2295541/resolution-against-blasphemous-sketches-to-be-tabled-in-na
Robert
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Presumably you have never seen a Mel Brooks film. Or an episode of Family Guy.
Holocaust denial is a crime in a few nations only, which participated in the Holocaust.
As [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] points out, the line is crossed when religious hate aggravates crime.
CricketCartoons
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The west will not listen, but that doesn't mean you don't speak up. At least west will be aware, even if they don't change.
Indiafan
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Its telling that everyone ignored this post. Will Pakistan ban cow slaughter to respect Hindus? Or is it always a one way street where one religion keeps making demands but never concedes anything in return?
CricketCartoons
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Hindus do not have ownership over cows. Cows belong to anyone who owns it. But Islamic theology and Islamic figures belong only to muslims, and non muslims have no business using them for their entertainment.
maverick85
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I don't think Pakistanis are Holocaust deniers. That's the speciality of white nationalists who actually directed the Holocaust.
The difference is, Jews are extant people, whereas IK wants the West to criminalise caricatures of a long-dead, historical figure. While they shouldn't be banned (but are incredibly distasteful), society would likely be against caricatures of ethnicities in general.
A stupid post if you follow your logic.
So if one doesn’t own anything they cannot or should not talk about it? So I see a car that belongs to somebody else I cannot say anything, make a comment?
What if a Muslim says something that others deem offensive, what then? I mean we know what happened to Mr Rushdi but would we see the same reaction Carte Blanche?
The issue is less on what people say - it’s the disproportionate reaction that inevitably follows and that’s what needs addressing. There is another thread where the PM looks to relate the way women dress to mitigate violent attacks on women.
Again, same issue, as an outsider this tells me that people in Pakistan are the problem and not what seemingly riles them.
But his claim is if you ban deniers then you must ban cartoonists, so if Pakistan ban cartoonists then they must also ban deniers.
Giannis
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People in Pakistan don't even know what the holocaust is but even if it was a big deal there I'm sure Imran Khan would have no issue with banning it although it's pretty useless, it's almost the equivalent of Australia banning any discussion about Lacrosse. Also Imran Khan's first wife had Jewish heritage, so he's not anti semitic at all.
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You do know that drawing a cartoon of a prophet in the west is no big deal, so why should they ban it then, thats using your logic.
Cpt. Rishwat
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Conversely, the people of Pakistan won't be a problem if you don't rile them. For example, instead of drawing pictures of the Prophet PBUH, you could say "Hello Mr Pakistani, are you keeping well on this fine day? Would you care to swap one of your samosas for a jam scone?"
I think there would be no problems then.
So basically people of Pakistani origins are special snowflakes that need their precious feelings protected - otherwise they are prone to uncontrollable reactions - doesn’t sound like a great example of humankind.
Or to flip this on the head, given the requests for special treatment - I assume in Pakistan the same curtosy, protection and self respect is shown to non Muslims? After all if holy figures in Islam are to be protected - surely the same applies to other faiths?
I think you misread what I wrote. I am saying you can make fun of jewish religion . As an example Mel brooks, Larry David, family guy and so on
BreadPakoda
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There's a country to the East as well but I doubt IK will say anything. And that's why all this will remain a drameybaazi.
Adil_94
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Looool imran delusional focusing on something like this when the economy is struggling
Cpt. Rishwat
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So you think a great example of humankind is to insult religious figures of a people rather than offer them pleasantries and refreshments?
miandadrules
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Maybe you should ask the Ahmedi’s of Pakistan.
Robert
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Ah, that’ll teach me to post on a iPhone SE screen.
Robert
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Seems like an attempt to pacify religious constituencies after the TLP crackdown.
My personal view is that while the cartoons are distasteful the solution is simple - ignore them. However Muslims who feel so strongly on this issue, while entitled to raise their objections in a democratic society (where absolute freedom of speech doesn't exist), they've gotta do better than "our feelings are hurt, please ban the mean cartoons !"
Pakistan, like many Muslim nations, have no political or economic leverage against the West to make such demands. It cannot behave like China who wield their economic clout to silence criticism of their actions in Xinjiang or Hong Kong.
Ultimately Muslim nations, and minority Muslim communities in the West must focus on matters they actually control to build the lobbying power needed before seeking acceptance of their cultural values from others. Matters like investing in education and encouraging children (including girls) to pursue their studies to build a high skilled labour force; investing in R&D to develop high-tech industries of the future; making it easier to create and invest in businesses; strengthening civil institutions; and bridging the internal divisions that has made many parts of the Muslim World a cesspit of despair, hatred and violence - dependent on outside aid to even function.
Otherwise unfortunately the penniless will always only be in a position to ask for crumbs.
My personal view is that while the cartoons are distasteful the solution is simple - ignore them. However Muslims who feel so strongly on this issue, while entitled to raise their objections in a democratic society (where absolute freedom of speech doesn't exist), they've gotta do better than "our feelings are hurt, please ban the mean cartoons !"
Pakistan, like many Muslim nations, have no political or economic leverage against the West to make such demands. It cannot behave like China who wield their economic clout to silence criticism of their actions in Xinjiang or Hong Kong.
Ultimately Muslim nations, and minority Muslim communities in the West must focus on matters they actually control to build the lobbying power needed before seeking acceptance of their cultural values from others. Matters like investing in education and encouraging children (including girls) to pursue their studies to build a high skilled labour force; investing in R&D to develop high-tech industries of the future; making it easier to create and invest in businesses; strengthening civil institutions; and bridging the internal divisions that has made many parts of the Muslim World a cesspit of despair, hatred and violence - dependent on outside aid to even function.
Otherwise unfortunately the penniless will always only be in a position to ask for crumbs.
90MPH
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Seems like a calculated deflection tactic on the part of IK.
He wants to hold on to power at the end of the day and focusing on these issues when the economy is stalled may work out for him politically..
I would rather he focus more to get the Pak economy going along with investment in education, exports etc.
Truth be told I expected more to be done with him 3 years in charge. Not all his fault but progress seems very slow.
He wants to hold on to power at the end of the day and focusing on these issues when the economy is stalled may work out for him politically..
I would rather he focus more to get the Pak economy going along with investment in education, exports etc.
Truth be told I expected more to be done with him 3 years in charge. Not all his fault but progress seems very slow.
Cpt. Rishwat
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I think they would agree with me, drawing caricatures of the Prophet PBUH is not an admirable course for humankind.
Bewal Express
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As I said before the CV crisis, don't always assume that the future is linear. We have Muslims have more than enough resources and IA we too will get leaders that make others dance to our tune.
miandadrules
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Do you know the definition of a fact?
Gharib Aadmi
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Those same western countries find it outrageous when people deny the Holocaust, or when a country like Iran has Holocaust cartoons.
Also if you post any Holocaust denial stuff on Facebook, and other social media platforms, its removed.
Same thing with any thing that's deemed racist.
So why cant Muslims ask for there to be no tolerance on mocking religion.
Gharib Aadmi
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Why cant western countries just let it go when Iran mocks the Holocaust? Or people deny the Holocaust. Tolerance goes both ways. If they want to mock Muslims fine, but then they should not complain when Muslims say things they deem taboo.
Gharib Aadmi
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He is saying its illegal in western countries to say anything about the Holocaust. You can literally go to jail in multiple countries. Facebook does not allow you to deny the Holocaust. Entire western world condemned Iran's Holocaust cartoons.
So if we can restrict free speech for Holocaust, then why not for mocking religion?
That is an outright lie, there is no such law.
If tolerance goes both ways why does Pakistan the country Imran leads have different tolerances?.
Gharib Aadmi
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial
Per this 16 countries in Europe have laws against Holocaust denial.
Yes. Holocaust and Prophet PBUH are historical facts. No one in their right minds should mock them. There is no reason for it. Both are sensitive issues. The irony though is both religions claim to be the best and consider the other religions or non believers as trash. And yet they claim to be victims at every turn. This irony is what the foreign press is mocking. They don't need to but they will as this shows that all it takes to bring a billion muslims to their knees is a cartoon. The insecurities are in full display to the point that a Prime minister of a country with 200+ million population is arguing like a child. Is that all it takes to rile the muslims up? Because if that's the case, the liberal world will continue to mock it. That's another irony. It's the liberals that are playing this game joining the right wing.
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