Police station burnt down by mobs over alleged blasphemy in Swat Pakistan

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Videos went viral on social media on Thursday after a mob lynched a man over allegations of desecrating the holy Quran and set the body on fire in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa’s Swat.

Some individuals had made announcements in the marketplace that a person had desecrated the Quran in the valley’s Madyan area, locals told Aaj News on the condition of anonymity due to security concerns.

A group of people then apprehended the alleged perpetrator and handed him over to the police. Later, announcements were made from mosques and the enraged mob rushed to the police station, dragged the suspect from custody, and killed him.

Aaj News tried to contact the district police officer, superintendent of police, and the station house officer, to get the official version of the incident. But no one picked up the phone.

The mob then set the police station on fire, as well as a police mobile van, completely destroying the station and the vehicle. The police managed to escape from the station. Additional police forces have been summoned to control the situation.

The alleged perpetrator has been identified as a resident of Sialkot, Punjab, who was staying at a hotel in Madyan as a tourist.

Locals added that announcements were made not only from mosques but also through loudspeakers in the marketplace.


 
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Thai is terrible ,just watch the visual of mobs burnt the man.

How can they do that ? No one from public have heart to save the man .
 
Thai is terrible ,just watch the visual of mobs burnt the man.

How can they do that ? No one from public have heart to save the man .
This is ridiculous! How can a person be dragged from police custody and be killed? Not even the police could control the mob?
 
Thai is terrible ,just watch the visual of mobs burnt the man.

How can they do that ? No one from public have heart to save the man .
The answer to your question is a very depressing one.

Anyone from the public who tried to step in would have been lynched too and been condemned for eternity as someone who supported blasphemy.

These violent mobs cannot be reasoned with. Their ideology is cancerous and dangerous.
 
The answer to your question is a very depressing one.

Anyone from the public who tried to step in would have been lynched too and been condemned for eternity as someone who supported blasphemy.

These violent mobs cannot be reasoned with. Their ideology is cancerous and dangerous.
Yes right but Pakistan needs to get rid of this law .
 
The mentality has already been deeply ingrained in the people. Getting rid of the law won't get rid of the mentality. The culture of mob justice both in Pakistan and India is just sad.
Yes its subcontinent problem Only solution is education.

People's need to change the mentality
 
Yes its subcontinent problem Only solution is education.

People's need to change the mentality
I feel the same. You don't hear similar things happening in the west. What is the Justice system there for? Justice should be left to the courts and courts alone. No one has the right to take law into their hands. Also, I find it utterly ridiculous that Indians and Pakistanis on PP love throwing dirt on each other regarding this particular issue since the situation is the same in both the countries.​
 
This cannot be happening. More and more incidents like this are coming to light these days. Religious extremism is never the way you would want to go. Society will collapse.

How can police be a spectator and let those people do whatever they want to do.
 
Yes right but Pakistan needs to get rid of this law .
Eventually.

But the lynchers weren't following the law anyway.

The law however flawed it is actually exists to prevent these things.

In an unstable society like Pakistan it's better the police or courts deal with blasphemy.
 
Yes its subcontinent problem Only solution is education.

People's need to change the mentality
It is a subcontinent problem when it comes to people.

But I've noticed in many cases Indian police is able to eventually disperse mobs ( not all cases of courses as sometimes police are complicit).

In Pakistan it seems that the police dont even try
 
Entire mob need to be jailed and maybe even executed.

What they did had nothing to do with Islam. Torturing someone is not allowed in Islam.
 
The only solution for this is to put the entire mob who participated to be "executed" in open ground.

But will someone dare?

The judicial system in Pakistan is cowardly. They won't do it because So-called Islamic Scholars won't let this happen because they are the main cause of this violence. Hang them first who promote extremism.
 
The victim's mother has made a statement disowning her victim son due to fear of other family members being killed by bloodthirsty mob. It's a shame she can't even seem like mourning.
 
This is what happens in a society where might is right. No one has faith in the law agencies and take the law into their own hands. Each one of the guys that did this must also face the same treatment
 
The worst thing that has ever happened to Pakistan is this ridiculous blasphemy law and how incompetent government has always been against it that they can't protect the victim and can't stop the wild animals of mob. They ruin the religion with their extremism. The same barbaric mob will never come out for the country or for any other matter against the corrupt mafia who are destroying Pakistan.

That is why you need Leaders who focus on education, that is the only solution to these jahil fanatics in our society. As long as we have ridiculous Leaders, this is never going to change in the long run
 
Pakistan is a lost cause, it was doomed from the day it was formed...

Why do you folks never let an opportunity go to show your bharatacharan bias to just ridicule the neighbour? We do obviously have fanatics in society won't dispute that but India has its own kind as well and simply disregarding that it doesn't exist is absolutely idiotic which is a far too common sight among Indian nationalist. Mob lynching happens in India as well, dozens of cases in just a few years. E.g is this news article from last year...."Muslim man lynched in India ‘for taking a banana’ at Hindu temple event. Mob ties the 22-year-old to a pole and beats him to death over allegations he stole ‘prasad’ or religious offering." see how ridiculous this is killing over a banana, you folks are doomed too by your logic? There been way too many just over a cow so spare us the ridiculous lies
 
Why do you folks never let an opportunity go to show your bharatacharan bias to just ridicule the neighbour? We do obviously have fanatics in society won't dispute that but India has its own kind as well and simply disregarding that it doesn't exist is absolutely idiotic which is a far too common sight among Indian nationalist. Mob lynching happens in India as well, dozens of cases in just a few years. E.g is this news article from last year...."Muslim man lynched in India ‘for taking a banana’ at Hindu temple event. Mob ties the 22-year-old to a pole and beats him to death over allegations he stole ‘prasad’ or religious offering." see how ridiculous this is killing over a banana, you folks are doomed too by your logic? There been way too many just over a cow so spare us the ridiculous lies


- Pakistan has been to the IMF for a record 22 times,

- No Pakistani PM has ever completed a full term,

- Pakistan have almost no economy,

- Pakistan has almost no money, just staying afloat thanks to borrowed money,

- Pakistan is considered a joke in the international Arena.


I am in no way insulting Pakistan, just stating the facts, the country is finished, no coming back from the ditch this big.

Pakistan will just go the way it is, firstly it was being used and abused by the US, now a lap dog of China, nothing more.


But hey don't let reality hit you in the face, just keep doing your thing and whine about what is happening in the neighboring country about CAA, Hindutva or whatever else cause that sure will help Pakistan dig its way out of the unrevivable mess it is in.

Only contribution Pakistan has provided the world is, what you should not do as a country...
 
The answer to your question is a very depressing one.

Anyone from the public who tried to step in would have been lynched too and been condemned for eternity as someone who supported blasphemy.

These violent mobs cannot be reasoned with. Their ideology is cancerous and dangerous.

Yes , this kind of ideology is dangerous , but this is not Islam ideology , Islam does not allow people to take matters in there own hands and be judge . There is a law , police , court and judge , for a reason , and the law should be followed with proper protocol.

I hope these people are identified and hanged.
 
The worst thing that has ever happened to Pakistan is this ridiculous blasphemy law and how incompetent government has always been against it that they can't protect the victim and can't stop the wild animals of mob. They ruin the religion with their extremism. The same barbaric mob will never come out for the country or for any other matter against the corrupt mafia who are destroying Pakistan.

That is why you need Leaders who focus on education, that is the only solution to these jahil fanatics in our society. As long as we have ridiculous Leaders, this is never going to change in the long run
So you are saying no such laws should be there ? Is law the issue , or people not allowing law to take course is the issue? And what alternate practical solution do you have for this law , or alternate?
 

PML-N’s Ahsan Iqbal decries Swat mob lynching, demands committee to probe vigilantism​

Planning Minister Ahsan Iqbal on Saturday condemned the lynching of a man in Swat, lamenting how religion is being weaponised to justify “street justice” and “vigilantism”.

A man was killed by a mob over alleged desecration of the Holy Quran in the Madyan area of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa’s Swat district on Thursday night. Eight people were injured in the unrest.

The police had moved the suspect of the alleged desecration incident to the police station, a police official said, but a charged mob attacked the police station and took the suspect away.

“People set fire to the police station and a mobile vehicle,” the DPO said, adding that the suspect was “torched”. Videos making the rounds on social media showed a mob circling a body on fire in the middle of the road, as well as people gathered in huge numbers outside a police station.

Addressing the incident during the budget debate in the National Assembly (NA) today amid interruptions by Deputy Speaker Ghulam Mustafa Shah, Ahsan said Parliament had to take stern notice of “mob justice”, as it had brought Pakistan “to the brink of destruction”.

“Another mob lynching has happened in Swat and Pakistan is under scrutiny for it,” he said.

“If this was an isolated incident we could move past it, but similar incidents have happened in Sialkot, Jaranwala and Sargodha,” he added, referring to incidents where those accused of desecration were lynched by vigilante mobs.

The minister also referred to an attempt on his life in 2018, where he was shot by a supporter of the religio-political party Tehreek-i-Labbaik Pakistan. “I am grateful that I got a new lease on life after an extremist shot me,” he said. “Even now the bullet is in my body.”

“We must take notice of this incident as our nation is on the brink. We have now reached a point where we are using religion to justify mob violence and street justice, flagrantly violating the Constitution, the law and the state,” he lamented.

He added that in Islam, “even the bodies of heretics must be shown respect”, further stating that it is forbidden to burn bodies. “Not only are mobs killing people, but they are setting the bodies on fire and making a spectacle out of it. It’s shameful.

“What are we showing the world with this?” he asked as the deputy speaker tried to cut him off. Despite the interruptions he continued, saying: “We need to think about where we stand in the world […] we are a backwards country. If we do not take notice of this, we will fall into anarchy.”

Ahsan concluded his address by demanding that a committee be formed to probe these incidents. “It is the ulema’s responsibility to understand how religion has been weaponised to justify mob violence. There must be a committee in place to tackle these incidents so we can be a civilised country.”

Deputy Speaker Shah said that as a member of the cabinet, Ahsan should confer with Interior Minister Mohsin Naqvi and work with him to form the committee. “You should coordinate with your colleague and bring these issues to the [Khyber Pakhtunkhwa] chief minister,” he said.

“Please bring this up at cabinet and not here,” he added.

 
The worst thing that has ever happened to Pakistan is this ridiculous blasphemy law and how incompetent government has always been against it that they can't protect the victim and can't stop the wild animals of mob. They ruin the religion with their extremism. The same barbaric mob will never come out for the country or for any other matter against the corrupt mafia who are destroying Pakistan.

That is why you need Leaders who focus on education, that is the only solution to these jahil fanatics in our society. As long as we have ridiculous Leaders, this is never going to change in the long run
Seeing the mob violence if anything blasphemy law is better just the punishment shouldn’t be death.
 
- Pakistan has been to the IMF for a record 22 times,

- No Pakistani PM has ever completed a full term,

- Pakistan have almost no economy,

- Pakistan has almost no money, just staying afloat thanks to borrowed money,

- Pakistan is considered a joke in the international Arena.


I am in no way insulting Pakistan, just stating the facts, the country is finished, no coming back from the ditch this big.

Pakistan will just go the way it is, firstly it was being used and abused by the US, now a lap dog of China, nothing more.


But hey don't let reality hit you in the face, just keep doing your thing and whine about what is happening in the neighboring country about CAA, Hindutva or whatever else cause that sure will help Pakistan dig its way out of the unrevivable mess it is in.

Only contribution Pakistan has provided the world is, what you should not do as a country...

Funny how when you presented the fact about mob lynching in India you started your response with typical Pakistan IMF, Pakistan loan etc etc, the usual Bhatyiya response when you hurt their feelings with facts. Stick to topic instead of crying about random cr*p. India was reported not to have toilets for over 730 million by reputable sources not too long ago, India gets bheek in millions from Gates Foundation just to build toilets for millions, India has been reported among the worst countries in latest Global Hunger Index etc etc so we can keep going about other pointless issues, so stick to the same topic. You said mob lynching doesn't happen in India and just a simple Google search will tell you it happens many times so keep your Bharatiyacharan feels or whatever the word is for you nationalist in check and stick to topic
 
Seeing the mob violence if anything blasphemy law is better just the punishment shouldn’t be death.

Won't dispute that. We do have absolute nut job extremists in our society who we would love to get rid of. Pakistanis do realize that and unlike our neighbours we don't hide our struggle behind fake idiotic nationalism that is a far too common sight among our neighbours
 
So you are saying no such laws should be there ? Is law the issue , or people not allowing law to take course is the issue? And what alternate practical solution do you have for this law , or alternate?

Law should be there for anyone ridiculing and mocking any religious deities, be it of any religion. Even Islam forbids from mocking other religions and their God, but not a punishment by mob and neither a punishment of death by government. When Prophet himself never ridiculed or cursed the people who mocked him then who are these fanatics getting their feelings hurt. This law has taken an extreme turn in Pakistan sadly and anyone questioning it gets targeted by extremist in our society. We are not proud of them and many Pakistanis curse them and hopefully with time and education we will get rid of this menace mob mindset.

I wouldn't go to India and mock Hindu Lords among Hindus, that obviously should be illegal. Respecting other people beliefs and what they hold dear should be bare minimum as a human being
 
Law should be there for anyone ridiculing and mocking any religious deities, be it of any religion. Even Islam forbids from mocking other religions and their God, but not a punishment by mob and neither a punishment of death by government. When Prophet himself never ridiculed or cursed the people who mocked him then who are these fanatics getting their feelings hurt. This law has taken an extreme turn in Pakistan sadly and anyone questioning it gets targeted by extremist in our society. We are not proud of them and many Pakistanis curse them and hopefully with time and education we will get rid of this menace mob mindset.

I wouldn't go to India and mock Hindu Lords among Hindus, that obviously should be illegal. Respecting other people beliefs and what they hold dear should be bare minimum as a human being
Punishment by mob is law no where . Punishment by death or imprisonment is made by law makers , it is subjective thing.

So , you agree that the issue is the mindset of people , not the law in place.
 
Some individuals had made announcements in the marketplace that a person had desecrated the Quran in the valley’s Madyan area, locals told Aaj News on the condition of anonymity due to security concerns.

A group of people then apprehended the alleged perpetrator and handed him over to the police. Later, announcements were made from mosques and the enraged mob rushed to the police station, dragged the suspect from custody, and killed him.
This bit really makes me despair for Pakistan. The level of organisation and the fact that the cops had him in custody but couldn't protect him makes it so much more sad.

With all the announcements and organisation, the cops had plenty of time to prepare but either couldn't or they wouldn't. Tough to say what's worse.
 
Really alarming that these incidents happen in broad daylight and the perpetrator are common janta, not some fringe elements.
These things happen in other parts of the subcontinent but never at this scale. In Pakistan there is something similar to this every 6 months or so.

Pakistan has failed not because of the economy or corruption but because of the masses who are jahil, violence hungry and enjoy inflicting pain on others.
 
Blasphemy law and mob justice is like gun violence in America, everyone knows it’s wrong but no one has the balls to speak out loud against it and certainly no one has balls to even dream of removing it.

It’s a sorry situation for Pakistan, but a country is defined by its people and unfortunately for Pakistanis, they aren’t the brightest bulb out there and will continue to suffer at the hands of their masters.
 
Really alarming that these incidents happen in broad daylight and the perpetrator are common janta, not some fringe elements.
These things happen in other parts of the subcontinent but never at this scale. In Pakistan there is something similar to this every 6 months or so.

Pakistan has failed not because of the economy or corruption but because of the masses who are jahil, violence hungry and enjoy inflicting pain on others.


Everything is interconnected, economy, religion, education, corruption etc etc all is interconnected.

People often make a mistake of blaming one thing without understanding the deeper relation between each of them and how they impact the other.

Unfortunately for Pakistan the only way forward is if they have a complete reboot of their entire nation, otherwise things will only get worse for them.
 
Blasphemy law and mob justice is like gun violence in America, everyone knows it’s wrong but no one has the balls to speak out loud against it and certainly no one has balls to even dream of removing it.

It’s a sorry situation for Pakistan, but a country is defined by its people and unfortunately for Pakistanis, they aren’t the brightest bulb out there and will continue to suffer at the hands of their masters.
That's a false comparison. Hundreds of thousands even millions of Americans protest against gun violence and have campaigned for stricter gun controls. Many laws have been passed by Democratic States some successful some stuck down by the courts.

Action against blasphemy - legal or extra-legal is different. No one in Pakistan dates speak against it. The one guy who spoke up against it - his assassin is revered and worshipped as a martyr.
 
Everything is interconnected, economy, religion, education, corruption etc etc all is interconnected.

People often make a mistake of blaming one thing without understanding the deeper relation between each of them and how they impact the other.

Unfortunately for Pakistan the only way forward is if they have a complete reboot of their entire nation, otherwise things will only get worse for them.
I've never heard of a country having a hard reboot like that. Pakistan is unique in that it doesn't seem to have one thing going for it - the political and military leadership is terrible, civil society is broken, education is down in the dumps, social indicators are disastrous, the best and brightest are leaving or have left...I could go on.

Even say Nigeria which could be considered a similar basket case 20 years ago now has established a firm Democratic governance over the last 20-25 years and has it's oil reserves to build on as a base. Whether it'll climb out of the hole it's dig for itself is debatable but there's something to be optimistic about.
 
That's a false comparison. Hundreds of thousands even millions of Americans protest against gun violence and have campaigned for stricter gun controls. Many laws have been passed by Democratic States some successful some stuck down by the courts.

Action against blasphemy - legal or extra-legal is different. No one in Pakistan dates speak against it. The one guy who spoke up against it - his assassin is revered and worshipped as a martyr.

Obviously you can’t compare the two like to like. Freedom of expression and speech in America is 100 years ahead of a state like Pakistan.

But you won’t see any candidate win federal elections if they have gun ban before elections in their manifesto.

It’s similar in a way that in America it’s a political suicide, in Pakistan it’s a literal suicide for anyone speaking against these things.
 
I've never heard of a country having a hard reboot like that. Pakistan is unique in that it doesn't seem to have one thing going for it - the political and military leadership is terrible, civil society is broken, education is down in the dumps, social indicators are disastrous, the best and brightest are leaving or have left...I could go on.

Even say Nigeria which could be considered a similar basket case 20 years ago now has established a firm Democratic governance over the last 20-25 years and has it's oil reserves to build on as a base. Whether it'll climb out of the hole it's dig for itself is debatable but there's something to be optimistic about.

It’s not looking good for Pakistan. I don’t see them improving in our lifetime.
Rwanda is a perfect example, in 80s or 90s they had major ethnic clashes where many died.

They learned from that and decided to reboot. Now they are one of the most flourishing nations in Africa and their capital Kigali is supposed to be the greenest and cleanest city in the entire world.
 
That's a false comparison. Hundreds of thousands even millions of Americans protest against gun violence and have campaigned for stricter gun controls. Many laws have been passed by Democratic States some successful some stuck down by the courts.

Action against blasphemy - legal or extra-legal is different. No one in Pakistan dates speak against it. The one guy who spoke up against it - his assassin is revered and worshipped as a martyr.
So , the law should be repelled , anyone abusing Islam , quran or prophet , disrespecting them should be let go ?
 
So , the law should be repelled , anyone abusing Islam , quran or prophet , disrespecting them should be let go ?
Yes. Let your God punish them. If your faith is true, the punishment will be terrible. More than anything humans can come up with.
 
Yes. Let your God punish them. If your faith is true, the punishment will be terrible. More than anything humans can come up with.

Nice , now , we can see your true opinion.

Have you read constitution of Pakistan ?

Also , I would like to ask your opinion on other countries through ages which had blasphemy laws?
 
Nice , now , we can see your true opinion.

Have you read constitution of Pakistan ?

Also , I would like to ask your opinion on other countries through ages which had blasphemy laws?
No I haven't though India punishes blasphemy as well (though not with the same severity Pakistan does). For example, India banned the book 'Satanic Verses' before any Islamic country did.

If it helps, I'm an atheist who doesn't believe in the concept of blasphemy. I do however have a lot of respect for the religious and their beliefs and do not think anyone has the right to insult them.

Punishments if any, need to be deeply thought out in the nature of restrictions and controls than bans and more severe stuff like criminal penalties.
 
No I haven't though India punishes blasphemy as well (though not with the same severity Pakistan does). For example, India banned the book 'Satanic Verses' before any Islamic country did.

If it helps, I'm an atheist who doesn't believe in the concept of blasphemy. I do however have a lot of respect for the religious and their beliefs and do not think anyone has the right to insult them.

Punishments if any, need to be deeply thought out in the nature of restrictions and controls than bans and more severe stuff like criminal penalties.

Good to know that , that you know that blaspheme laws are not Muslim Monopoly.

The main purpose of punishment for in Islamic jurisprudence as well as Christian I suppose is deterrence. All the legislations which approved of blaspheme laws must have done so after debates , so I presume they were hard thought out.

In Islam disrespecting ( not criticizing ) is considered a grave sin , so the punishment is hard , so that others do not do that.

The issue here has been the mob mindset , which is wrong. There is court , police etc , mob taking charge and harming or killing anyone whether Hindu , Muslim , christian , atheist etc is absolutely wrong. The court should adjudicate the matter according to evidences.
 
I've never heard of a country having a hard reboot like that. Pakistan is unique in that it doesn't seem to have one thing going for it - the political and military leadership is terrible, civil society is broken, education is down in the dumps, social indicators are disastrous, the best and brightest are leaving or have left...I could go on.

Even say Nigeria which could be considered a similar basket case 20 years ago now has established a firm Democratic governance over the last 20-25 years and has it's oil reserves to build on as a base. Whether it'll climb out of the hole it's dig for itself is debatable but there's something to be optimistic about.
Civil society isn't broken.

There is a chapter in Anatol Lieven wonderful book to describe Pakistan - 'Weak State, Strong Society'
 
Loudspeakers were ‘used to instigate people’ in Swat mob lynching case

Some motorcyclists used loudspeakers in addition to announcements in mosques to instigate people in the Swat mob lynching case, a police official said on Sunday.

“As per my reports, announcements were made in the mosques. A few opposed the request. But some people on motorcycles carried loudspeakers and made the announcement in streets,” Swat DPO Zahidullah Khan said while appearing on Aaj Exclusive aired on Aaj News.

On Thursday night, a violent mob lynched a man and set his body on fire over allegations of desecrating the holy Quran. The crowd also torched the police station from where they dragged him to the streets.

The alleged accused has been identified as a resident of Sialkot, Punjab, who was staying at a hotel in Madyan as a tourist.

The DPO confirmed that at least 23 suspects were arrested after a “grand operation” in the city and its nearby areas. They were named in the first information report and identified through the CCTV footage and social media videos.

A case was registered under sections 302 (punishment for murder), 324 (attempted murder), 353 (assault or criminal force to deter public servant from discharge of his duty), 341 (punishment for wrongful restraint), 427 (mischief causing damage to the amount of fifty rupees), 436 (mischief by fire or explosive substance with intent to destroy house), 186 (obstructing public servant in discharge of public functions), 149 (every member of unlawful assembly guilty of offence committed in prosecution of common object) and 148 (rioting, armed with deadly weapon) of the Pakistan Penal Code and Section 7 of the Anti-Terrorism Act against those involved in the incident.

When asked, he said that it would be premature to say that any specific group or lobby was involved in the incident as people from different schools of thought and age groups were found involved in it. He added that there were no reports of personal enmity.

“These are early days, let police complete the investigation. We are working on it and we are trying to punish people involved in it.”

Human rights activist Zigar Sher, who joined the show via video link, said that such incidents mostly occurred in summer seasons. He also mentioned the area’s conservative society, describing it as “favourable” where people’s religious sentiments were provoked for chaos and used for personal use.

He highlighted that it has not been ascertained whether blasphemy was committed or not. Sher lamented that all the key evidence had gone after the police station was torched.

The human rights activist was wary of the investigation and outcome, saying that the institutions might refrain from taking action in fear of riots.

Peter Jacob, the executive director of the Centre for Social Justice, called for fair trial and investigation and mentioned that suspects were released by courts in similar cases because of their young age.

The Swat DPO clarified that police were trying to present evidence and ensure conviction of the suspects if found guilty. “The case was registered against 49 known and 2,500 unknown accused named in the FIR,” he said and added that suspects have to be identified through technical evidence and human intelligence.“

In response to a question, he defended the SHO’s decision to take the man to the police station. Khan termed it a “split-second decision”.

In the discussion, the human rights activist raised some basic questions over the incidents like the cause and motive behind the alleged blasphemy.

“Who made the announcement? This incident did not occur all of a sudden. If he had the intention why did he wait for two days? The cruel irony is that reality never comes out in such cases,” he said and called for strategies to deal with such cases.

Jacob, the minority community member, shares some statistics. “So far, 100 people have been killed over blasphemy allegations since 1994 till to date and 700 people are in Punjab jail. Thousands of people have been victims of false allegations and this year’s statistics show over 85% of victims belong to the religion of Islam,” he said and lamented that people do not talk about the issue.

When asked about the government’s decision to start the counterterrorism campaign Azm-i-Istehkam, DPO Khan called for a holistic approach to counter-militancy and reforms.

According to him, there was no presence of the banned terrorist group Taliban in Swat.


 
So , the law should be repelled , anyone abusing Islam , quran or prophet , disrespecting them should be let go ?

Law must be repealed. As long as they aren't screaming in your face, why do you mind what they do in their own personal space? They have a right to opinion. Allah doesn't need your protection.
 
Good to know that , that you know that blaspheme laws are not Muslim Monopoly.

The main purpose of punishment for in Islamic jurisprudence as well as Christian I suppose is deterrence. All the legislations which approved of blaspheme laws must have done so after debates , so I presume they were hard thought out.

In Islam disrespecting ( not criticizing ) is considered a grave sin , so the punishment is hard , so that others do not do that.

The issue here has been the mob mindset , which is wrong. There is court , police etc , mob taking charge and harming or killing anyone whether Hindu , Muslim , christian , atheist etc is absolutely wrong. The court should adjudicate the matter according to evidences.
Oh I honestly don't believe that Muslims have a monopoly on blasphemy punishments. They've just followed on previous tradition. After all, it was the ancient Greeks who forced Socrates to drink hemlock for impiety.

Let me pose you a question in return though. Do you believe that the Catholic Church was right to condemn Galileo for heresy? Or more broadly that humans have any right to decide what is heresy or blasphemy on behalf of God?
 
Civil society isn't broken.

There is a chapter in Anatol Lieven wonderful book to describe Pakistan - 'Weak State, Strong Society'
I haven't read that book but however relevant to it's time, it's about 15 years old now and to an observer like me, it feels like the trials and tribulations of the last decade and a half have drained what little clarity and resistance was left in civil society.

The remnants are deeply fractured and are unable to offer the least opposition to the steady slide downwards of the political system and the State itself.

It's telling that the only worthwhile resistance to the blatant rejection of the overwhelming popular mandate in the recent elections has come from deeply partisan Imran fans. Not from wider civil society.
 
I haven't read that book but however relevant to it's time, it's about 15 years old now and to an observer like me, it feels like the trials and tribulations of the last decade and a half have drained what little clarity and resistance was left in civil society.

The remnants are deeply fractured and are unable to offer the least opposition to the steady slide downwards of the political system and the State itself.

It's telling that the only worthwhile resistance to the blatant rejection of the overwhelming popular mandate in the recent elections has come from deeply partisan Imran fans. Not from wider civil society.
Most of the population isn't really impacted by the government but a unique combination of bridari, kinship and local leaderships. It's why in many cases the ruling party just appoints one of those people as their representatives.

They are functioning happily. Function being the key word.
 
Oh I honestly don't believe that Muslims have a monopoly on blasphemy punishments. They've just followed on previous tradition. After all, it was the ancient Greeks who forced Socrates to drink hemlock for impiety.

Let me pose you a question in return though. Do you believe that the Catholic Church was right to condemn Galileo for heresy? Or more broadly that humans have any right to decide what is heresy or blasphemy on behalf of God?
Galileo had it easy.

 
Oh I honestly don't believe that Muslims have a monopoly on blasphemy punishments. They've just followed on previous tradition. After all, it was the ancient Greeks who forced Socrates to drink hemlock for impiety.

Let me pose you a question in return though. Do you believe that the Catholic Church was right to condemn Galileo for heresy? Or more broadly that humans have any right to decide what is heresy or blasphemy on behalf of God?
Yes , throughout history such laws were in place , the reason is that no right is deemed to be absolute .

I think Galileo was just imprisoned and died a natural death.

Well according to text of bible Galileo was against those text. Science was not that developed. If the laws at that time was based on Bible as a Christian nation , then it was justified. Speaking against God is subject to death according to bible. So if I was living at that time under those laws , I would not have spoken or done anything to endanger my life.

So , Blaspheme laws are based on Texts or scriptures , not one consensus of followers. God himself will not come down and punish or reward people. God works through his creation and through natural causes.
 
Law must be repealed. As long as they aren't screaming in your face, why do you mind what they do in their own personal space? They have a right to opinion. Allah doesn't need your protection.
What Allah wants he has mentioned in his scripture and through his representative on Earth that are prophets.

So, you talk about Laws , not on what Allah wants.

So in that case you want in a Muslim majority country people to disrespect Islam and be given free hand to do so , is that practical? Suppose for argument sake you repeal the law , will that help the situation , because it is not the law that was activated but the mob killed the person.

Where was the law allowed to work or take its course.
 
What Allah wants he has mentioned in his scripture and through his representative on Earth that are prophets.

So, you talk about Laws , not on what Allah wants.

So in that case you want in a Muslim majority country people to disrespect Islam and be given free hand to do so , is that practical? Suppose for argument sake you repeal the law , will that help the situation , because it is not the law that was activated but the mob killed the person.

Where was the law allowed to work or take its course.
I'd say the law if anything, is a symptom or maybe even a side effect of a deeper malaise in society. If there is enough education, awareness and self-confidence in the followers of a religion to be able to say 'I don't care what that idiot Charb depicts or writes about my prophet and my god. I know they're divine and great,' there will be no motivation to severely punish blasphemy and heresy. Consequently, there will be no lynchings and as a side effect, no capital punishment for these crimes.

The efforts in religious and other education should be to create that confidence and awareness in followers of the religion. Let's start with repealing these laws and work our way down to the point where a devotee will just ignore the provocateurs who try to make fun of their religion, prophets and gods.
 
I'd say the law if anything, is a symptom or maybe even a side effect of a deeper malaise in society. If there is enough education, awareness and self-confidence in the followers of a religion to be able to say 'I don't care what that idiot Charb depicts or writes about my prophet and my god. I know they're divine and great,' there will be no motivation to severely punish blasphemy and heresy. Consequently, there will be no lynchings and as a side effect, no capital punishment for these crimes.

The efforts in religious and other education should be to create that confidence and awareness in followers of the religion. Let's start with repealing these laws and work our way down to the point where a devotee will just ignore the provocateurs who try to make fun of their religion, prophets and gods.

If the people have no laws for respect and dignity of Islam and prophet , then what is the point of having religious clause in constitution ?

Now , why you have criminal laws in place ? For you your life and property is important , same way for a Muslim the dignity of His prophet and God is important. And that is why the laws are in place.

Devotees are not allowed to ignore the provocateurs. Islam is a practical religion , which adheres to practical solutions. Its not what Hindus and Christians have made there religions. It is alive with its jurisprudence. It is not weak that when people ask questions , we hide saying it is not a religion but way of life.
 
If the people have no laws for respect and dignity of Islam and prophet , then what is the point of having religious clause in constitution ?

Now , why you have criminal laws in place ? For you your life and property is important , same way for a Muslim the dignity of His prophet and God is important. And that is why the laws are in place.

Devotees are not allowed to ignore the provocateurs. Islam is a practical religion , which adheres to practical solutions. Its not what Hindus and Christians have made there religions. It is alive with its jurisprudence. It is not weak that when people ask questions , we hide saying it is not a religion but way of life.
If that is your belief, by logical consequence, you're actually supporting the lynchings. If it is the duty of every Muslim to punish insults to the prophet and God, then they should not be waiting for some uncertain justice and law but acting immediately.

Had they not acted, it's perfectly possible the guilty person(assuming he did actually commit the blasphemous acts attributed to him) may have escaped punishment given the tortuous and corrupted workings of the justice system in underdeveloped countries like ours.

So did they actually fulfil their religious obligations by joining together and lynching the guy? Would letting him remain in police custody and potentially escape due to international pressure have been the greater sin?
 
If that is your belief, by logical consequence, you're actually supporting the lynchings. If it is the duty of every Muslim to punish insults to the prophet and God, then they should not be waiting for some uncertain justice and law but acting immediately.

Had they not acted, it's perfectly possible the guilty person(assuming he did actually commit the blasphemous acts attributed to him) may have escaped punishment given the tortuous and corrupted workings of the justice system in underdeveloped countries like ours.

So did they actually fulfil their religious obligations by joining together and lynching the guy? Would letting him remain in police custody and potentially escape due to international pressure have been the greater sin?

No , I no where supported lynchings , I supported the law . Lynchings are done by mob.

The enforce shariah is NOT duty of every Muslim , it is duty of courts. For example if you see a murderer , you being a citizen should inform the police and be witness in the court , not just go out and kill that person. The courts and judge is there for a reason.

If he had escaped justice , so be it , if he could prove that he did not commit the act , and in the above case it could have been . Justice should have been allowed to prevail after proper investigation.

What religious obligation ? Jihad against injustice is also religious obligation , but for that you have soldiers , for leading salah you have imam , same way for adjudicating you have judge. A crowd cannot be judge.
 
No , I no where supported lynchings , I supported the law . Lynchings are done by mob.

The enforce shariah is NOT duty of every Muslim , it is duty of courts. For example if you see a murderer , you being a citizen should inform the police and be witness in the court , not just go out and kill that person. The courts and judge is there for a reason.

If he had escaped justice , so be it , if he could prove that he did not commit the act , and in the above case it could have been . Justice should have been allowed to prevail after proper investigation.

What religious obligation ? Jihad against injustice is also religious obligation , but for that you have soldiers , for leading salah you have imam , same way for adjudicating you have judge. A crowd cannot be judge.
What a perfect way to escape any responsibility. 👏
A law that weaponizes criminals is an unjust law, a weak law a pathetic law.
 
No , I no where supported lynchings , I supported the law . Lynchings are done by mob.

The enforce shariah is NOT duty of every Muslim , it is duty of courts. For example if you see a murderer , you being a citizen should inform the police and be witness in the court , not just go out and kill that person. The courts and judge is there for a reason.

If he had escaped justice , so be it , if he could prove that he did not commit the act , and in the above case it could have been . Justice should have been allowed to prevail after proper investigation.

What religious obligation ? Jihad against injustice is also religious obligation , but for that you have soldiers , for leading salah you have imam , same way for adjudicating you have judge. A crowd cannot be judge.
I see you've chosen your particular, narrow interpretation of verses in the Quran and the Hadiths - i.e. that blasphemy needs to be punished on earth and by humans BUT only by the law.

It's a very specific interpretation but surely you're aware that there are learned scholars who have made interpretations on both sides of your choice.

I'm not very knowledgeable but from past discussions on this subject, I have learnt that there are famous scholars who have chosen to interpret Quran 4:140 as requiring believers only to ignore blasphemy and mockery and leave punishment to god.

Ofcourse, there are equally famous scholars who have chosen to interpret verses like the infamous 5:33 and 34 as the duty of every Muslim who hears someone commit blasphemy to immediately exact fatal retribution.

You have chosen to follow scholars who prescribe the middle path. Just be aware that not just us unbelievers...not even all Muslims agree with you. Given that, would it not be wiser to err on the side of mercy even to blasphemers?
 
The only solution for this is to put the entire mob who participated to be "executed" in open ground.

But will someone dare?
I got a better idea.

Don't kill them, use them for testing medicines till their body has nothing left, whilst being locked up permanently. It will not only help humanity as the studies on humans will be accurate in comparison to testing on animals and most importantly, their suffering will be legendary, I am getting excited just picturizing it..

:kakmal
 
What a perfect way to escape any responsibility. 👏
A law that weaponizes criminals is an unjust law, a weak law a pathetic law.

There is a law that demands that people convicted of theft should be jailed.

If a victim of a robbery decides to tie up the robber in his basement for life, would you criticise the law itself?
 
There is a law that demands that people convicted of theft should be jailed.

If a victim of a robbery decides to tie up the robber in his basement for life, would you criticize the law itself?
Huh??? First of all, theft and robbery are not the same thing.
If you are going to debate with legal terms, Be accurate!
Try again!
 
Huh??? First of all, theft and robbery are not the same thing.
If you are going to debate with legal terms, Be accurate!
Try again!
They can be used synonymously when speaking informally and it's easy to understand the point that was being made.

However you can pick one of the two terms that meet your legal standards, consider my post as being edited and then answer it please.
 
There is a law that demands that people convicted of theft should be jailed.

If a victim of a robbery decides to tie up the robber in his basement for life, would you criticise the law itself?
You've gotten to the root of it. Law rarely runs ahead of societal opinion on right and wrong but it occasionally must. When dowry was banned in India and/or Pakistan, I don't think society in general accepted it as wrong enough to ban. But to just say society doesn't believe dowry is wrong and anyway it's difficult to enforce, so lets not ban it would have been wrong even at the time.

I think in this case the law is wrong and the underlying societal opinion is wrong. They're related but separate. Killing people for blasphemy is wrong either through either law or mob action. The appropriate thing to start with would be to repeal the law and continue to work to change underlying societal opinion. It's worked in other cases like Sati, child marriage and is beginning to work on dowry.
 
They can be used synonymously when speaking informally and it's easy to understand the point that was being made.

However you can pick one of the two terms that meet your legal standards, consider my post as being edited and then answer it please.
There are basic human rights that cannot be denied even to a criminal. No law empowers a person to lock a another to lock someone for life, there are basic rights of self defense.

Any law that gets easily exploited and abused time and time again, should be thrown away and do not have have any moral basis.
 
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You've gotten to the root of it. Law rarely runs ahead of societal opinion on right and wrong but it occasionally must. When dowry was banned in India and/or Pakistan, I don't think society in general accepted it as wrong enough to ban. But to just say society doesn't believe dowry is wrong and anyway it's difficult to enforce, so lets not ban it would have been wrong even at the time.

I think in this case the law is wrong and the underlying societal opinion is wrong. They're related but separate. Killing people for blasphemy is wrong either through either law or mob action. The appropriate thing to start with would be to repeal the law and continue to work to change underlying societal opinion. It's worked in other cases like Sati, child marriage and is beginning to work on dowry.
The reverse approach needs to be done in Pakistan.

Firstly the law needs to stay but the mob justice needs to be eradicated.

Secondly false accusations of blasphemy need to be considered a bigger blasphemy. There are many rabble rousing mullahs who for a few rupees can make analogies from the loudspeaker that the true blasphemer is the one that makes false allegations of blasphemy...or something to those lines.

Finally the burden of proof for a successful conviction should be raised higher and higher slowly and incrementally until the law becomes something that is written in legal text books but nobody gets convicted (apart from a very very high bar that is set and imo should remain).

Removing the law would create anarchy. In Pakistan these twisted zealots have created a position where questioning the law makes one a blasphemer!
 
The reverse approach needs to be done in Pakistan.

Firstly the law needs to stay but the mob justice needs to be eradicated.

Secondly false accusations of blasphemy need to be considered a bigger blasphemy. There are many rabble rousing mullahs who for a few rupees can make analogies from the loudspeaker that the true blasphemer is the one that makes false allegations of blasphemy...or something to those lines.

Finally the burden of proof for a successful conviction should be raised higher and higher slowly and incrementally until the law becomes something that is written in legal text books but nobody gets convicted (apart from a very very high bar that is set and imo should remain).

Removing the law would create anarchy. In Pakistan these twisted zealots have created a position where questioning the law makes one a blasphemer!
I guess you'd know the right approach to getting rid of this heinous law and practice better than me (though if I remember right, you're not a Pakistani resident either). I'm well aware of the fate of Salman Taseer

Can there a constituency to turn it into a lesser crime or civil case though?

India has it's own horrific problems with Cow vigilantes lynching folks and criminal laws against cow slaughter but they're being actively fought and the worst sentence that's been passed so far from my knowledge is a 7 year jail term in (no surprises as to the most backward state) Uttar Pradesh.

It's a pity the subcontinent is going from bad to worse on this stuff. We can't just give up saying the laws only reflect society. We have to fight both - societal prejudices and the unjust laws.
 
There are basic human rights that cannot be denied even to a criminal. No law empowers a person to lock a another to lock someone for life, there are basic rights of self defense.

The blasphemy law, i will skip pointing directly to the obvious source and the way it empowers madness and terror in communities because someone among moderators gets triggered and will end up deleting the posts.
Any law that gets easily exploited and abused time and time again, should be thrown away and do not have have any moral basis.

It doesn't get exploited time and time again. It makes the headlines because it's jarring and shocking when people resort to mob 'justice.'
 
I guess you'd know the right approach to getting rid of this heinous law and practice better than me (though if I remember right, you're not a Pakistani resident either). I'm well aware of the fate of Salman Taseer

Can there a constituency to turn it into a lesser crime or civil case though?

India has it's own horrific problems with Cow vigilantes lynching folks and criminal laws against cow slaughter but they're being actively fought and the worst sentence that's been passed so far from my knowledge is a 7 year jail term in (no surprises as to the most backward state) Uttar Pradesh.

It's a pity the subcontinent is going from bad to worse on this stuff. We can't just give up saying the laws only reflect society. We have to fight both - societal prejudices and the unjust laws.
Yes that's right I'm not a resident but I'm aware of this issue in great detail having debated it to death with friends and family members at home.

Hindu militancy is not a serious threat in India like the corresponding Islamic fundamentalist are in Pakistan. You guys are able to tackle these things a lot better.
 
There are basic human rights that cannot be denied even to a criminal. No law empowers a person to lock a another to lock someone for life, there are basic rights of self defense.

The blasphemy law, i will skip pointing directly to the obvious source and the way it empowers madness and terror in communities because someone among moderators gets triggered and will end up deleting the posts.
Any law that gets easily exploited and abused time and time again, should be thrown away and do not have have any moral basis.
I asked if the thread title got changed because I remember the last title says a man got burned down. Guess what happened to that comment?
 
So you are saying no such laws should be there ? Is law the issue , or people not allowing law to take course is the issue? And what alternate practical solution do you have for this law , or alternate?
Of course the law is an issue!

Blasphemy laws are a laughably archaic concept in the civilized world - of which Pakistan doesn't seem to want to be a part of.
 
We also have same issue regarding mob lynching .

Its subcontinent problem as I said earlier .

As long as a large percentage of the society believes that mob law serves a purpose, then you can't expect to live in a civilised country. Unless of course, you want to live in a country where everyone holds the same views.
 
As long as a large percentage of the society believes that mob law serves a purpose, then you can't expect to live in a civilised country. Unless of course, you want to live in a country where everyone holds the same views.
Right
 
Of course the law is an issue!

Blasphemy laws are a laughably archaic concept in the civilized world - of which Pakistan doesn't seem to want to be a part of.

But in this case the laws were not allowed to take effect, just imagine despite having laws mob killed a person without any kind of investigation , if there is no law in place , will the mob would have been controlled?
 
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