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PoTW : DHONI183

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MS Dhoni copped a lot of flak from friends and foe - but this post which we chose as POTW is as good a defense of the Indian stalwart as can be found.

Congratulations to [MENTION=6745]DHONI183[/MENTION] for winning the POTW

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?286784&p=10426751#post10426751

There has been a lot of criticism on Dhoni´s batting, and especially his approach, over the last few years. I´ve always kept quite and not defended him, because often it was justified too I must admit. I was amongst those who argued with Indian posters over here that his innings against England a couple of weeks ago made absolutely no sense at all, because what´s point in defending the indefensible? However, it seems that it has become quite a trend to blame him for everything going wrong in this world, from global warming to the crisis in the Middle East. His case is like that daughter-in-law who´s scolded one day for serving only one bread to her mother-in-law and thus leaving her hungry; and when she serves her a couple of those the next day, she´s scolded again because the sudden increase has caused the woman stomach ache! Hell, three years ago, he was even criticised heavily for making 15 not out off nine balls in the World T20 Semi-Final, as if nine balls is a great sample size!

I´d like to be told how exactly was MS or his innings at fault for the semi-final defeat? Those of you who´re after him for batting slowly, do you even realise how foolish it would´ve looked on his part if he had taken a risk and got out, whilst Jadeja was going berserk at the other end? Would you´ve forgiven him if he´d left Jadeja alone to bat alongside the tail-enders in the middle of a partnership which looked great to be winning the match altogether? We can all talk about taking calculated risks all day, but do you realise that it just takes one bad shot, mistimed or mis-hit, and the innings is done for you, and the tail would´ve been left to partner Jadeja? At least I would´ve been very disappointed if he´d done that.

Australia´s Carey is a prime example here. He has been one of the stars of the tournament. A revelation if you like. Battled the initial collapse beautifully with Smith in the Semi-Final when they were 14/3 at one stage. Stitched together a brilliant partnership with Smith. Australia looked on course to be getting a total around 260, or even over perhaps. He played a terrible shot, was caught at deep mid-wicket, Australia collapsed to 222. And mind you, he still had Maxwell and Stoinis to come, yet the shot proved to be the turning point of the match. We can make it simple and ask both Smith and Jadeja: did Smith prefer Carey´s shot or did Jadeja prefer MS minimising every risk at the other end? In fact, leave this comparison aside and let Jadeja be the judge: how relieved was he that he was batting with a partner at the other end who almost carried a guarantee of not getting out (given the number of wickets lost), or did he feel being put under pressure by MS´ slow scoring rate? I think you´ll have your answer! Returning to the point about taking calculated risks towards the last few overs. Jadeja´s innings in times of quality and value was miles, miles ahead of MS´ innings, but remember that the moment the last five overs started, MS right away became the more key wicket of the two, simply because he has a greater hitting ability, on papers at least, and has finished matches for India time and time again batting with the lower-order or the tail, whereas Jadeja has hardly ever done that. So it became all the more important for MS to have not preferred to take risks and to have left it to Jadeja, especially given that that had been the plan working for them throughout the partnership.

As for slow scoring, a former Indian cricketer even put the blame on MS for Pandya´s shot, implying that MS´ slow scoring put pressure on him. So let me get this straight: Pandya, who himself had made 32 off 62 deliveries by that stage, felt being under pressure to go for his shots because of MS?! Does that even make sense? What I gather is that Steve Smith is allowed to make 85 off 119 balls, Carey too can get away with a 46 off 70 balls, Williamson is louded for his 67 off 95, Taylor is praised for his 74 off 90 balls, both Pant and Pandya are allowed to scrap through to 32 each off 56 and 62 balls respectively, but MS isn´t allowed to make 50 off 72 even when the team found itself at 71/5 and then finally at 92/6 at one stage.

Another rather striking thing here is the favouritsm in the media and amongst the former cricketers and experts. All in unison have expressed the thought that Pant should be forgiven for his horrible shot (and Pandya too) because of him being young, naïve and inexperienced. I don´t oppose this, and it´s a noble and quite a romantic thought, but when was the last time when an Indian batsman got so much leniency despite playing such a poor shot at such a crucial stage? Was Dhoni forgiven for his failure in the Indian Oil Cup Final and then the TVS Cup Final back in 2005, when he had been playing only since half a year? Was he forgiven for his mindless shot in the Mumbai Test Match 2006? Was he forgiven for playing a stupid shot of Brett Lee in an ODI in Malaysia in 2006, despite it being a big no-ball? Was MS not grilled for his slow start against the West Indies in the ICC Champions Trophy 2006, despite having fully made up for it later in the innings to have allowed India to get a fighting total? Were people not asking for his head following the first-round exit in the ODI World Cup 2007? I tell you, he WAS NOT! So why this special sympathy for Pant (and also Pandya)? A lot of these very experts questioned his technique and also his commitment for the national team altogether!

Now, people are even blaming him for not batting up the order himself, totally overlooking that Kohli is the captain of the team. As a senior member of the side, to give inputs whenever asked by the captain, or to give ideas with regards to whom to bowl or where the fielders should be placed is entirely different to saying that "Send me up the order!" in a world cup semi-final, when the coach, the batting consultant, captain and the whole team management has made up its mind to assign to you a role to bat lowest down the order - not lower, but lowest of all the recognised batsmen. In fact, Manjrekar pointed out a scene in his analysis during the semi-final itself, where MS voiced his thought with regards to what line and length to bowl, and Kohli shook his head in negation. MS immediately walked back to his keeping position. So it doesn´t work like that, unless of course you´re hell-bent on blaming him for everything that goes wrong. In fact, I´d be the first one to criticise him for batting so low if it comes out one day that they all wanted him to bat higher up the order but he himself refused to do so. Also, for those who´re ready to blame him by accepting that he chooses the batting order, do they also praise him for example for sending Pandya up the order in a couple of games where he batted really well? So you can´t have both ways!

India didn´t lose because of MS or his slow batting, neither did they necessarily lose because of him not batting up the order. It was a strategic miss by all means, but it just takes one good ball or a bad shot for a batsman to get out, and this could very well have happened. India lost because they did not have another MS in the team batting in the middle-order. One more batsman with a calm head like him and the ability to soak up the pressure, and the match was India´s all the way.

If this was his last international appearance, if he retires now or gets dropped, so be it. I´ll take it. I take pride in the fact that he was only one of the two batsmen on one of the biggest stages of cricket, who were willing to play for the team and fought tooth and nail to get their team over the line. We can call him Mr. Cool all that we want to, but pressure does take toll on everyone. The moment India lost early wickets, he knew right away that this match could well come down to him. He was hardly seated even for a minute. Walking to and fro, checking and examining his bat, its wood again and again. He knows, he knew that the blame of a loss will ultimately fall on his shoulders. It was a sad sight to witness in a sense. However, again, if this turns out to be his last match, it just defines his career and his value to the team. Fighting a collapse, stitching together a partnership and then requiring to score at almost an impossible rate with the tail. Many he won, many he lost, but it would ultimately be his dismissal which would decide the match, and so indeed it happened. For a great part of his career, Tendulkar would be India´s first and the last hope. Dhoni wasn´t the first hope of course, but often he was India´s last hope. I take pride in this and move on in life! I know he tried, he gave it his best shot on Wednesday, and that´s what matters to me. It never mattered to me beyond that. :)
 
Funny how dhoni fans are quick to claim credit for their hero, how he handles the field placements in close games, how he is the pseudo captain then. How he advises the bowlers and they implement this advice only because he told them to. But hey when dhoni comes in at 7 instead of his regular 5, it's kohli's idea, its shastri's idea, its bangar's idea. Dhoni has no say in it.

Also you left out a big detail of why dhoni was blamed for the defeat, Ross Taylor was on 22 when dhoni dropped his catch. He went on to score 74. We lost by 18 runs.
 
Funny how dhoni fans are quick to claim credit for their hero, how he handles the field placements in close games, how he is the pseudo captain then. How he advises the bowlers and they implement this advice only because he told them to. But hey when dhoni comes in at 7 instead of his regular 5, it's kohli's idea, its shastri's idea, its bangar's idea. Dhoni has no say in it.

Also you left out a big detail of why dhoni was blamed for the defeat, Ross Taylor was on 22 when dhoni dropped his catch. He went on to score 74. We lost by 18 runs.
Dude, that didn't even carry..
 
Dude, that didn't even carry..

it carried, he dropped the catch. You don't drop something that didn't carry.

This is cricinfo commentary for the ball:
Taylor jabs at it and nicks it behind. Just about carries to Dhoni, but he didn't stretch forward enough to snaffle the low chance. The ball bobbles out of his gloves
 
it carried, he dropped the catch. You don't drop something that didn't carry.

This is cricinfo commentary for the ball:
Taylor jabs at it and nicks it behind. Just about carries to Dhoni, but he didn't stretch forward enough to snaffle the low chance. The ball bobbles out of his gloves
What does that tell you?
 
LOL

1st of all you cant compare NZ batting vs MS as NZ were batting first and not chasing.

Dhoni has been pathetic for some time. That innings vs ENG cant be defended. That was one of the worst batting displays EVER seen on a cricket pitch.
 
Nah don't agree. Problem with Indians is we are too emotional. Dhoni is being turned into some sort of hero. He's a professional player who played past his expiry date because of money invested on him.

Pandya is a hitter he should not be sent above dhoni.
You did not groom pant for 2 years and then in world cup semi final send him at danger situation. If pant was groomed for 2 years would make sense for him to come up the order.

Dhoni should come at 4 and stabilize innings like he can do better than newbie pant and hitter pandya. Then when 70 are needed of 10 overs newbie pant and hitter pandya can get them as they are better power hitter than dhoni.

Whole strategy was wrong. Planning was wrong. Indians in general start worshipping humans and then think with heart and not brain. ODI is game of world cups groom players in bilaterals but lack of planning made us lose.
 
Potw : Dhoni183

Wow wow, never saw this coming! Unbelievable! I´ve been blown away! My post about possibly Dhoni´s last international match/innings gets awarded by the wonderful people over here. It can hardly get ever more fitting and romantic than this. It never can.

Hugely grateful to PakPassion for this honour. My health and other activities may not allow me to be too active over here in my daily life, but come a big tournament (be it cricket or even soccer), I come back and enjoy the few weeks as if I´m on a trip to abroad or something. This fun is just too addictive!

Thanks everyone once again! :)
 
Potw : Dhoni183

Guys, I fully respect the difference in opinion and the disagreeing views. You all are most welcome to keep them coming. I don´t think that I´ll add more of my insight on this than I already have. However, whilst making a point, please consider that the post has addressed the innings from different angles. To select a part of it to make your point, whilst overlooking the whole context of the post, is a little unfair. To disagree is your right, but read the post carefully and try to understand the different angles addressed in it.
 
What does that tell you?

It tells me you don't read what doesn't suit your viewpoint. Literally the next words are that the ball barely carried because grandpa didn't stretch forward as he should have.

That would be taken by every other keeper at the wc.
 
It tells me you don't read what doesn't suit your viewpoint. Literally the next words are that the ball barely carried because grandpa didn't stretch forward as he should have.

That would be taken by every other keeper at the wc.
So how is it a dropped catch if he never got to it?
 
Guys, I fully respect the difference in opinion and the disagreeing views. You all are most welcome to keep them coming. I don´t think that I´ll add more of my insight on this than I already have. However, whilst making a point, please consider that the post has addressed the innings from different angles. To select a part of it to make your point, whilst overlooking the whole context of the post, is a little unfair. To disagree is your right, but read the post carefully and try to understand the different angles addressed in it.

You make a good case for why he wasn't at fault for the loss. But you ignore what led to the criticism. This isn't the first time dhoni failed to win a game, he failed or miscalculated fair few times even at his peak.

The problem is what happened in the semi is what has been happening for a few years now. He had a style of play that worked in the past, it doesn't now because he isn't good enough. But he hasn't been dropped, the only reason he is still in the team is because he has political backing off the field. Many don't like it. Which is the reason for harsh criticism.
 
So you are blind when it suits you. The ball popped out of the glove, that is a drop.
Dude, it never carried to him in the first place.

The hate for Dhoni has gotten ridiculous, he's still one of the best keepers in the game.

Should be blaming your captain for your failures in the WC, he looked like he had seen a ghost when he came out to bat.
 
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Dude, it never carried to him in the first place.
Please my friend do explain to me how does a ball reach the gloves, not get held by the keeper but isn't a drop. It reached the gloves of dhoni, you can find the replay and check it yourself, it wasn't easy but that was because grandpa didn't want to put forth the effort.
 
Dude, it never carried to him in the first place.

The hate for Dhoni has gotten ridiculous, he's still one of the best keepers in the game.

Should be blaming your captain for your failures in the WC, he looked like he had seen a ghost when he came out to bat.

He routinely gave away multiple byes every game this world cup, made a hash of catches and stumpings. He wouldn't be in the top 5 of keepers this worldcup. He was once a great keeper now he is a shadow of that keeper whose every game is now eroding whatever good reputation that keeper built.
 
You make a good case for why he wasn't at fault for the loss. But you ignore what led to the criticism. This isn't the first time dhoni failed to win a game, he failed or miscalculated fair few times even at his peak.

The problem is what happened in the semi is what has been happening for a few years now. He had a style of play that worked in the past, it doesn't now because he isn't good enough. But he hasn't been dropped.....

This too has been briefly mentioned in my post, sir. Read the first few sentences. Cheers! :)
 
Funny how dhoni fans are quick to claim credit for their hero, how he handles the field placements in close games, how he is the pseudo captain then. How he advises the bowlers and they implement this advice only because he told them to. But hey when dhoni comes in at 7 instead of his regular 5, it's kohli's idea, its shastri's idea, its bangar's idea. Dhoni has no say in it.

Also you left out a big detail of why dhoni was blamed for the defeat, Ross Taylor was on 22 when dhoni dropped his catch. He went on to score 74. We lost by 18 runs.

Stop crying for once please. Shami gave credit to Dhoni for his hattrick. Now show us where did team management say that it was Dhoni's idea to bat at 7? Knowing you I can bet that you would have still cried had Dhoni came on to bat at 5.

Fact is you are trying to put the blame of semi final loss on Dhoni and you have nothing to prove that. Your golden boys Pant and Pandya after getting set and eating up deliveries were the real culprits. Pant played a stupid shot. And Pandya Ji played a pathetic inning of 32 from 62 balls. Had Dhoni not stayed there with Jadeja he would not have been able to play that inning because our tail is longer than the tongues of Dhoni haters.

Pant and Pandya are not fit enough to tie the shoe laces of peak Dhoni, yuvi and raina. They used to chase targets for fun where as guys like Pant and Pandya will always go for glory shots and gift their wickets away.

Also OP did ask a question which biased Dhoni haters are trying to avoid again and again. Let me ask this again 'How is Dhoni responsible for India's semi final loss?'

Congrats [MENTION=6745]DHONI183[/MENTION] :inti
 
Stop crying for once please. Shami gave credit to Dhoni for his hattrick. Now show us where did team management say that it was Dhoni's idea to bat at 7? Knowing you I can bet that you would have still cried had Dhoni came on to bat at 5.

Fact is you are trying to put the blame of semi final loss on Dhoni and you have nothing to prove that. Your golden boys Pant and Pandya after getting set and eating up deliveries were the real culprits. Pant played a stupid shot. And Pandya Ji played a pathetic inning of 32 from 62 balls. Had Dhoni not stayed there with Jadeja he would not have been able to play that inning because our tail is longer than the tongues of Dhoni haters.

Pant and Pandya are not fit enough to tie the shoe laces of peak Dhoni, yuvi and raina. They used to chase targets for fun where as guys like Pant and Pandya will always go for glory shots and gift their wickets away.

Also OP did ask a question which biased Dhoni haters are trying to avoid again and again. Let me ask this again 'How is Dhoni responsible for India's semi final loss?'

Congrats [MENTION=6745]DHONI183[/MENTION] :inti

Please do show me where i have said this. They aren't anywhere near peak dhoni's ability, but this isn't 2011 nor is this peak dhoni.

Dhoni isn't the sole responsible party for the loss, the 2 idiots, 1 who leads this team on paper and the other drunk who coaches it bear bigger responsiblity. But he would be the clear 3rd biggest person at fault.

Regarding the credit part, my point wasn't that dhoni did not deserve credit for giving suggestions to bolwers, but that he basically is the captain in all but name but somehow is being assumed to be some hapless youngster with no say in where he bats, are you telling me that dhoni if he told shastri and kohli that he wants to bat no 5 would be told no?

The fact is he allowed a 21 year old, a no 7 batsman and whatever kartik is, were told to bat before him in a semi final chase where india were struggling and he allowed it. Where he should have taken responsibility being the most experienced guy in the team, he hid behind others.

He dropped a guy who went on to score 74 runs on 22. We lost the game by 18 runs.
 
This post is good but it’s a bit too emotional rather than rational.

Dhoni made the match into a far more difficult situation than it should have been. You cannot claim that he was soaking up pressure when consistently leaving so many deliveries outside off. There was no need for a total that started off at 4.5 runs per over to reach a point of 8-9 by the end of it especially with a guy at one point end who had been at the crease for around 35 overs.

Jadeja, Pant and Pandya made him look useful because they contributed around 60% of the total, it’s not the other way around.
 
Thank you guys for the appreciations.
[MENTION=134981]Bhaag Viru Bhaag[/MENTION] your comment about the Indian batting´s tail being longer than the tongues of Dhoni haters made me chuckle. It seriously did:))! I hope it didn´t offend anyone. Anyway, I thought of briefing addressing a few points.

1. A respected member of the forum "lolled" at myself having drawn comparison between MS´ innings and the innings of batsmen who were actually batting first, for example a couple of New Zealand batsmen. It´s a valid "lolling" of course, but one which has been addressed satisfactorily in the fourth paragraph itself of my post. A careful reading of the post reveals that I pointed out a couple of more example which came whilst batting second, and also draws out a solid reason in its last sentence.

2. As for MS having not walked out himself to bat higher up the order. Let me draw our attention to the relevant part from my post......

DHONI183 said:
..... Now, people are even blaming him for not batting up the order himself, totally overlooking that Kohli is the captain of the team. As a senior member of the side, to give inputs whenever asked by the captain, or to give ideas with regards to whom to bowl or where the fielders should be placed is entirely different to saying that "Send me up the order!" in a world cup semi-final, when the coach, the batting consultant, captain and the whole team management has made up its mind to assign to you a role to bat lowest down the order - not lower, but lowest of all the recognised batsmen. In fact, Manjrekar pointed out a scene in his analysis during the semi-final itself, where MS voiced his thought with regards to what line and length to bowl, and Kohli shook his head in negation. MS immediately walked back to his keeping position. So it doesn´t work like that, unless of course you´re hell-bent on blaming him for everything that goes wrong. In fact, I´d be the first one to criticise him for batting so low if it comes out one day that they all wanted him to bat higher up the order but he himself refused to do so. Also, for those who´re ready to blame him by accepting that he chooses the batting order, do they also praise him for example for sending Pandya up the order in a couple of games where he batted really well? So you can´t have both ways! ....

I don´t deny that Dhoni fans might indeed be quite quick to take credit for all the on-field decisions when India bowl. Fans of any players can be hard to tolerate, no doubt, as the fans of a certain great from Mumbai come to my mind. I´m not one of them. However, I wonder whether it is the fans who give him all the credit or the players themselves in their post-match statements? Even more importantly, is it the fans or the commentators, analysts and cameramen who´re quick to point out on our TV screens that MS helped Kohli in setting the field, placing a certain fielder, and giving inputs to bowlers as to where to bowl?

A) The thing is, MS helping out his captain during India´s bowling innings is based on two-year evidence. It´s a fact, not an assumption.

B) However, Dhoni having made the decision not to bat higher up the order is based on agenda-driven assumptions. How can you assume, without evidence, that the captain, the coach and the team management wanted him to bat up the order but he refused?

C) Secondly, how can you assume, without evidence, that it wasn´t the case that MS indeed wanted to bat up the order but that the captain, the coach and the team management dismissed his idea, and instead opted to attack with Pant and Pandya?

D) What it shows is that the assumption is based on the fact that MS is a senior player of the team. So alright, this makes sense to blame a non-captain senior player for the wrong decisions made. Now, hold on to this logic:

Can we now blame Tendulkar for having not opened the innings in the ODI World Cup 2007 - a move which heavily cost India as they exited the tournament from the very first round? Can we blame the great man for having elected to bowl first against Australia in the ODI World Cup Final 2003? Can we blame him for bowling Prasad only three overs in the ICC Champions Trophy Final 2000, when he was clearly the best Indian bowler on the day?

E) Obviously not, because that will be plain stupid. So what this criticism ultimately reveals is that it is done not because he was a non-captain senior player of the team, but because he´s MS Dhoni. I´m watching cricket since two decades now, and have read about matches from the past. Never in the history of the game has a non-captain senior player of the team ever been blamed or criticised for not batting up the order. How else do you explain this, except pointing out that all this is a result of his name being MS Dhoni?

3. My friend [MENTION=96424]RWAC[/MENTION] made a point on Tuesday on the phone which hasn´t been dealt with in my post on his innings. I thought that it´ll be best anyway if I write it out instead of making my point on the phone itself.

So, his point was that MS could´ve shown more intent in his running between the wickets in his innings, in order to keep the required run-rate in check. Firstly, if you remove two boundaries from his innings, it makes for a reading of 40 runs off 70 balls. Without the help of any boundaries, how many times do you see a batsman getting four runs of every seven balls? It´s quite good innings if you minus the boundaries. The real reason behind his slow innings was actually the lack of boundaries. As to why he couldn´t go for boundaries and why he couldn´t take risks, please read my original post. The reason behind him cutting down on all the risks has already been laid out in my post.
 
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