POTW: narendranva1970

[MenInG]

These awards are the toughest ones to give in Time Pass & Sports - fact is that no opinion is perfect (by its very definition) and something sensitive like India/Pakistan issues are never black and white in nature.

But this post in the poll thread comparing Imran Khan and N Modi caught our attention as an honest attempt to analyse the issue.

Well done to [MENTION=144893]narendranva1970[/MENTION] for expressing his views on the subject with some degree of moderation!

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...r-job-for-his-country&p=10494180#post10494180

Either you detest Modi/Imran or adore Modi /Imran. They bring out polarized views on many things..

It is tough to be a neutral to look into their policies.

Both have charisma and ability to pull people for a cause, it is not easy to fill up a 30,000 crowd in Washignton or 50,000+ crowd in Houston.

Both have started their career with passion for a cause, Modi with strong social work with RSS and Imran after cricket worked towards a cancer hospital..

Both have leanings over fundamentalism, Modi with RSS background and Imran with Islam ideology..

Both have a perception of clean image – no major headlines on corruption/scandal on them..
Both are looked as saviors of their country by their followers..

With Modi, he has a track record of 3 times chief minister, with people voting him back to power, and also wining the prime ministerial election again shows atleast people appreciation of his good work..

While Imran Khan have won power just a year back, is yet to face people on his performance..

With Modi, he has taken a lot of strong and bold measures like demonetization, GST / bankruptcy code, striking off non-filing companies and many more.. However the verdict of his actions on economy is still not out..

While Imran too has brought reforms, it is more out of compulsion than a clear thought out process..
With my reading of Pak newspapers over last 20 years, tells me, Imran come out as sincere person
and is more like Gen.Musharaff in the initial years.

However, Imran does not seems to have freedom like Modi..

On the negatives, Modi comes off like a bigot, narcissist while
Imran comes off like a loose mouth and exhibits lack of clarity in approach.. He is more like, let us try this option, and see whether it works or not..
In conclusion, I believe both have their country interest in heart and will do course corrections when things go wrong .
On the question, who is doing better for the economy, definitely Modi has done a lot in killing black economy.
The issue is black economy functions as a lubricant in an inefficient economic system. Killing it abruptly will have its own side effects unless you correct and streamline bureaucracy, tax reforms etc.,
However, on tax compliance and structural changes his work will definitely bring rewards for the Indian economy in the future.

For Imran, his hands are tied and he is restrained by IMF/lenders and he needs to be maverick to bring a change..
Is he delivering on that ? No. In 1991, India faced with similar situations with minority government, PV NArashimha Rao has set India on a path to glory with bold economic reforms..

Imran is yet to do something..
So, at the moment, Modi is a winner here..

 

[Napa]

I do not agree with everything said, but well argued overall.

 

[KingKhanWC]

"Both have leanings over fundamentalism, Modi with RSS background and Imran with Islam ideology.."

Comparing an RSS extremist to Imran being a Muslim is pathetic. No need to read further.

 

[irfan]

So you give a POTW award to a post that evaluates Modi which doesn't even mention his role in the Gujarat massacres?

 

[Swashbuckler]

Don't agree. Modi is a fundamentalist, not Imran. Imran might be socially RW but come on, we can't draw comparison with an extremist Hindutva icon. No religion should be compared to Hindutva, I would be similarly shocked if Hinduism were compared to the extremist versions of Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc. Modi does not 'come off' like a bigot, he is a bigot. Modi has a clean image only for his followers, not for the rest of us. Modi did damage in Gujarat and not just to the social fabric, ask the tribals. Some of Modi's economic decisions have backfired causing untold misery on our citizens. Modi is a warmonger, dead people are cannon fodder for his political ambition. Modi's war against corruption and black money has been a spectacular failure, his cheerleaders led by a pliable media hide the facts and spread fake news boosting his image which he quite frankly doesn't deserve. He is an excellent event manager, a great seller of fiction, most of his accomplishments can be attributed to his PR team's salesmanship.

I have a lot more to add about flaws in that post but won't because this is your POTW thread and it would be extremely rude of me. About Imran, Pak posters will be better placed to answer. I don't know whether the admins here want to strike some balance because this Indo-Pak tension is spilling over to some of the threads which can sometimes be polarizing/hateful. I would only recommend that don't encourage normalization of bigotry just because you want to compensate for the pro-Pak tilt (understandable and perfectly fine) here. It is a Pakistani forum and I personally do think it should represent Pak pov more, I have no problem as long as people are courteous and know where to draw the line, moderators here are quite good at their jobs most of the time.

Reading such undeserved praise for Modi makes me uncomfortable, a man at war against his own people be it Kashmiris, Assamese, Dalits, minorities, dissenters, opposition leaders, farmers and others. There are brave, selfless and principled citizens standing up to this Indian government and paying the price, the least the international community can do is encourage balanced discussion about India. Please do not fall for Nagpur's propaganda.

 

[Finisher]

Sorry both dont have a clean image

 

[Bilal_103]

Yah some post of the week. Comparing the butcher of Gujrat to Imran Khan bravo

 

[narendranva1970]

Thanks a lot guys, greatly appreciate your kind words.

After a long time of being a silent spectator, I have started writing here.

I have nothing but welfare of both countries at heart and will be happy, if some of the misconceptions about both countries go away.

 

[SakunaPataka]

"Both have leanings over fundamentalism, Modi with RSS background and Imran with Islam ideology.."

Comparing an RSS extremist to Imran being a Muslim is pathetic. No need to read further.

Its not just being a Muslim.... he supported Taliban and AQ. Also Pakistan as a country was one of the first to officially recognize Taliban rule in Afghanistan circa 2002. ( I could go on and on )

when compared to that RSS are practically saints.

 

[MenInG]

So you give a POTW award to a post that evaluates Modi which doesn't even mention his role in the Gujarat massacres?

Its an opinion - it doesnt mean we agree with him or he is right.

That's for you to judge.

The POTW award is for his effort to explain his views.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Thanks a lot guys, greatly appreciate your kind words.

After a long time of being a silent spectator, I have started writing here.

I have nothing but welfare of both countries at heart and will be happy, if some of the misconceptions about both countries go away.

Even though I don't agree with the post, it's nice to read such posts.

Its not just being a Muslim.... he supported Taliban and AQ. Also Pakistan as a country was one of the first to officially recognize Taliban rule in Afghanistan circa 2002. ( I could go on and on )

when compared to that RSS are practically saints.

First of all, the Taliban government was the government that was overthrown by the United States forces.

People mock Khan but his stance on certain things remains unhinged and these are

1. A dialog is the only way forward to solve critical situations
2. No state terrorism - no drones, no judge, jury, executioner kind of actions
3. Creating a better environment and growth through clean energy

Indian media and Indian perceptions about Pakistan are shockingly bad. No wonder anytime someone from the region visits Pakistan they are surprised. Not everyone in Pakistan is an ISI agent or hates India. Even now most of the sane voices in Pakistan maintain that Indians are amazing people and they are being led by a leader who has created hate against Pakistan part of the Indian constitution.

 

[MP2011]

Don't agree. Modi is a fundamentalist, not Imran. Imran might be socially RW but come on, we can't draw comparison with an extremist Hindutva icon. No religion should be compared to Hindutva, I would be similarly shocked if Hinduism were compared to the extremist versions of Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc. Modi does not 'come off' like a bigot, he is a bigot. Modi has a clean image only for his followers, not for the rest of us. Modi did damage in Gujarat and not just to the social fabric, ask the tribals. Some of Modi's economic decisions have backfired causing untold misery on our citizens. Modi is a warmonger, dead people are cannon fodder for his political ambition. Modi's war against corruption and black money has been a spectacular failure, his cheerleaders led by a pliable media hide the facts and spread fake news boosting his image which he quite frankly doesn't deserve. He is an excellent event manager, a great seller of fiction, most of his accomplishments can be attributed to his PR team's salesmanship.

I have a lot more to add about flaws in that post but won't because this is your POTW thread and it would be extremely rude of me. About Imran, Pak posters will be better placed to answer. I don't know whether the admins here want to strike some balance because this Indo-Pak tension is spilling over to some of the threads which can sometimes be polarizing/hateful. I would only recommend that don't encourage normalization of bigotry just because you want to compensate for the pro-Pak tilt (understandable and perfectly fine) here. It is a Pakistani forum and I personally do think it should represent Pak pov more, I have no problem as long as people are courteous and know where to draw the line, moderators here are quite good at their jobs most of the time.

Reading such undeserved praise for Modi makes me uncomfortable, a man at war against his own people be it Kashmiris, Assamese, Dalits, minorities, dissenters, opposition leaders, farmers and others. There are brave, selfless and principled citizens standing up to this Indian government and paying the price, the least the international community can do is encourage balanced discussion about India. Please do not fall for Nagpur's propaganda.

Well said, Swashy.

Most fake and dangerous person that guy is! And illiterates just fall over each other to eulogize him.

 

[MP2011]

As for Imran, he is still a newcomer in power. However even after decades, he won't match the event manager in being so horrendously bad.

 

[ahsan17]

Its not just being a Muslim.... he supported Taliban and AQ. Also Pakistan as a country was one of the first to officially recognize Taliban rule in Afghanistan circa 2002. ( I could go on and on )

when compared to that RSS are practically saints.

When did he support Taliban and AQ?

 

[barah_admi]

The following should be enough to exclude this from POTW contention - "Both have leanings over fundamentalism, Modi with RSS background and Imran with Islam ideology.."

I would like the poster or the awarding body (@mening) to explain how Imran khan's views as a Muslim has led to the oppression of HIndus, their territory taken from them, blackout of ALL information imposed and destruction of property and civil liberties.

We, however, have reems of evidence regarding Modi, his extremist ideology and how it has been put into action.

I have to ask the tough questions because no one else seems to.

 

[ahsan17]

The following should be enough to exclude this from POTW contention - "Both have leanings over fundamentalism, Modi with RSS background and Imran with Islam ideology.."

I would like the poster or the awarding body (@mening) to explain how Imran khan's views as a Muslim has led to the oppression of HIndus, their territory taken from them, blackout of ALL information imposed and destruction of property and civil liberties.

We, however, have reems of evidence regarding Modi, his extremist ideology and how it has been put into action.

I have to ask the tough questions because no one else seems to.

There does seem to be an obvious false equivalence. When you hear IK talk, he mentions Islam here and there but it doesn't appear to be at the core of his leadership. Modi OTOH has been a lifelong RSS member under whom intolerance seems to have gone through the roof.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The following should be enough to exclude this from POTW contention - "Both have leanings over fundamentalism, Modi with RSS background and Imran with Islam ideology.."

I would like the poster or the awarding body (@mening) to explain how Imran khan's views as a Muslim has led to the oppression of HIndus, their territory taken from them, blackout of ALL information imposed and destruction of property and civil liberties.

We, however, have reems of evidence regarding Modi, his extremist ideology and how it has been put into action.

I have to ask the tough questions because no one else seems to.

Since when fundamentalism meant extremism?

 

[narendranva1970]

My view is IK come out as one - who does not condemn fundamentalist in hard way. He defended Taliban/and sometimes terrorists .

In that view, he is similar to Modi, He too does not control loudmouths in his parties, though he never utters anything gross..

Both view them as a manipulative tool to woo their audiences..


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cused-over-defence-of-pakistan-blasphemy-laws

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/11/07/imran-khan-and-pakistans-hardliners/

 

[barah_admi]

There does seem to be an obvious false equivalence. When you hear IK talk, he mentions Islam here and there but it doesn't appear to be at the core of his leadership. Modi OTOH has been a lifelong RSS member under whom intolerance seems to have gone through the roof.

It is not just intolerance, that is too small a word for what Modi has been involved in, during a near 20 year political career.

 

[barah_admi]

My view is IK come out as one - who does not condemn fundamentalist in hard way. He defended Taliban/and sometimes terrorists .

In that view, he is similar to Modi, He too does not control loudmouths in his parties, though he never utters anything gross..

Both view them as a manipulative tool to woo their audiences..


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cused-over-defence-of-pakistan-blasphemy-laws

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/11/07/imran-khan-and-pakistans-hardliners/

In what way did he defend the taliban? And what was his ultimate point if he did so?

Khan's stance on Afghanistan, the Taliban and the US invasion has stayed both honest and consistent. He has said, time and time again, that the only way to resolve the issue is to come to the negotiating table. And be under no illusion, the US has negotiated with the Taliban for over 10 years now at various locations around the globe. That is the only path to peace...if you and others want peace.

This is entirely different to Modi putting in policies which has led to murder, false imprisonment and rape. You can not equate the two. it is both dishonest and immoral.

 

[narendranva1970]

In what way did he defend the taliban? And what was his ultimate point if he did so?

Khan's stance on Afghanistan, the Taliban and the US invasion has stayed both honest and consistent. He has said, time and time again, that the only way to resolve the issue is to come to the negotiating table. And be under no illusion, the US has negotiated with the Taliban for over 10 years now at various locations around the globe. That is the only path to peace...if you and others want peace.

This is entirely different to Modi putting in policies which has led to murder, false imprisonment and rape. You can not equate the two. it is both dishonest and immoral.

Imran has defended and justified Taliban holy war under Islamic laws. Please read the article below

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/14/imran-khan-taliban-afghanistan-islam

I have said, he has leanings of fundamentalism..

With regards to Modi, it is unfortunate that most of people on this side of border presume that Modi as butcher and a Nazi.. In their imagination, Modi is seen as bollywood villain.. They believe it his policy (on Kashmir) to quote your word - leading to murder, false imprisonment, rape and so on..

It is not so..



Kashmir is a strategic land - and three nuclear powers will go to any lengths to defend their control of this land.

With regard to Indian government policy on article 370, any government with majority with national interest would have done so..

Remember it was Vajpayee, the moderate who has conducted the nuclear test.

It was during congress government in early 90s Kashmiris faced severe oppression, compared to that period, current handling of the situation is quite soft.. If was during congress govt, India faced lot of pressure from UNHRC and India won them with strong diplomacy..

 

[SakunaPataka]

Even though I don't agree with the post, it's nice to read such posts.



First of all, the Taliban government was the government that was overthrown by the United States forces.

People mock Khan but his stance on certain things remains unhinged and these are

1. A dialog is the only way forward to solve critical situations
2. No state terrorism - no drones, no judge, jury, executioner kind of actions
3. Creating a better environment and growth through clean energy

Indian media and Indian perceptions about Pakistan are shockingly bad. No wonder anytime someone from the region visits Pakistan they are surprised. Not everyone in Pakistan is an ISI agent or hates India. Even now most of the sane voices in Pakistan maintain that Indians are amazing people and they are being led by a leader who has created hate against Pakistan part of the Indian constitution.

When did he support Taliban and AQ?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/14/imran-khan-taliban-afghanistan-islam

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...taliban-against-western-liberals-third-blood/

Last sentence: "He has previously said he supports the Taliban being allowed to open offices in Pakistani cities"

He has also supported ISI role in training AQ and under jihadi groups. There is a reason why he is known as Taliban Khan.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Last sentence: "He has previously said he supports the Taliban being allowed to open offices in Pakistani cities"

He has also supported ISI role in training AQ and under jihadi groups. There is a reason why he is known as Taliban Khan.

Totally supports the point that I said. He wants a dialog with the people who want violence.

The CIA founded, funded, aided the freedom movement against USSR. Funny how people keep throwing it in our face this thing. And, I'm assuming you are an Indian so supporting freedom movement in a country shouldn't even be a problem based on what Indra Gandhi said and did in the past.

 

[ahsan17]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/14/imran-khan-taliban-afghanistan-islam

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...taliban-against-western-liberals-third-blood/

Last sentence: "He has previously said he supports the Taliban being allowed to open offices in Pakistani cities"

He has also supported ISI role in training AQ and under jihadi groups. There is a reason why he is known as Taliban Khan.

Why does opening offices mean supporting Taliban? Wasn't US trying to get Pakistan to coordinate with Taliban for a peace deal? Opening an office is consistent with working towards a peace deal.

 

[ahsan17]

The CIA founded, funded, aided the freedom movement against USSR. Funny how people keep throwing it in our face this thing. And, I'm assuming you are an Indian so supporting freedom movement in a country shouldn't even be a problem based on what Indra Gandhi said and did in the past.

These guys are true hypocrites. They will talk about "good terrorist bad terrorist" when they themselves had their good terrorists in Bangladesh and LTTE.

 

[JaDed]

These guys are true hypocrites. They will talk about "good terrorist bad terrorist" when they themselves had their good terrorists in Bangladesh and LTTE.

LTTE killed our PM...

 

[ahsan17]

LTTE killed our PM...

But they were supported at one time. But my point mainly revolves around support for groups in Bangladesh, which were freedom fighters aka "good terrorists".

 

[JaDed]

But they were supported at one time. But my point mainly revolves around support for groups in Bangladesh, which were freedom fighters aka "good terrorists".

Not denying, just saying LTTE became terrorist in late 80s, BD ones probably didnt coz they managed to get a country, am sure if LTTE had managed to get a homeland India would be dealing with them too atleast BJP would had not sure abt congress.

 

[barah_admi]

Imran has defended and justified Taliban holy war under Islamic laws. Please read the article below

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/14/imran-khan-taliban-afghanistan-islam

I have said, he has leanings of fundamentalism..

With regards to Modi, it is unfortunate that most of people on this side of border presume that Modi as butcher and a Nazi.. In their imagination, Modi is seen as bollywood villain.. They believe it his policy (on Kashmir) to quote your word - leading to murder, false imprisonment, rape and so on..

It is not so..



Kashmir is a strategic land - and three nuclear powers will go to any lengths to defend their control of this land.

With regard to Indian government policy on article 370, any government with majority with national interest would have done so..

Remember it was Vajpayee, the moderate who has conducted the nuclear test.

It was during congress government in early 90s Kashmiris faced severe oppression, compared to that period, current handling of the situation is quite soft.. If was during congress govt, India faced lot of pressure from UNHRC and India won them with strong diplomacy..

Now you are going back on the very post that made you POTW....that is what happens when falsehood is faced with truth.

Let me counter some of the "points" you put forward.

You posted an article from The Guardian, in which IK states that someone fighting for the freedom of their land are also fighting a Jihad, he actually wrongly quotes a Quranic verse out of context YET where does he mention the Taliban? Unless you equate all those fighting for freedom in Afghanistan as the taliban, something which even the US does not do. Do you?

Then you go onto this atrocity, and I quote

"They believe it his policy (on Kashmir) to quote your word - leading to murder, false imprisonment, rape and so on..

It is not so.."

Are you serious? I am not here to defend any previous Indian government actions on Kashmir, they have all been monsters but Modi has escalated far beyond almost anything else. He has, by imposing the current pain upon the Kashmiri people, broken 11 UN resolutions. By estimation of one of the UN rapporteurs to Kashmir, it is unprecedented in the history of democracies for there to be a COMPLETE information blackout. No one has ever come across this, in his own words (I urge you to read his report) there have bee instances of limitations of two-way communications but a complete black out? Also a complete black out of one way communication such as TV? Unheard of.

WHy do you think this has happened? Is it so Modi, the RSS and the Indian army can march in and hand out chai and biscuits and have some dosa for breakfast?

According to even western liberal outlets such as your beloved Guardian, thousands of political opponents have been arrested without charge, hundreds of civilians...how many will be killed? How many more will be imprisoned? What is the state of the women and children, who were already previously raped, kidnapped, tortured and murdered....don't believe me? Read the UN reports on Jammu and Kashmir...don't believe me? Read eye witness testimonies...don't believe me? Read what Human Rights Watch Asie has to say on the matter.

Tell me, which policy has Imran Khan brought and perpetuated through the army and non army thugs of a similar nature? What has he done on the Azad Kashmir side of things? What has he inflicted on the minorities in other parts of Pakistan?

 

[narendranva1970]

Now you are going back on the very post that made you POTW....that is what happens when falsehood is faced with truth.

Let me counter some of the "points" you put forward.

You posted an article from The Guardian, in which IK states that someone fighting for the freedom of their land are also fighting a Jihad, he actually wrongly quotes a Quranic verse out of context YET where does he mention the Taliban? Unless you equate all those fighting for freedom in Afghanistan as the taliban, something which even the US does not do. Do you?

Then you go onto this atrocity, and I quote

"They believe it his policy (on Kashmir) to quote your word - leading to murder, false imprisonment, rape and so on..

It is not so.."

Are you serious? I am not here to defend any previous Indian government actions on Kashmir, they have all been monsters but Modi has escalated far beyond almost anything else. He has, by imposing the current pain upon the Kashmiri people, broken 11 UN resolutions. By estimation of one of the UN rapporteurs to Kashmir, it is unprecedented in the history of democracies for there to be a COMPLETE information blackout. No one has ever come across this, in his own words (I urge you to read his report) there have bee instances of limitations of two-way communications but a complete black out? Also a complete black out of one way communication such as TV? Unheard of.

WHy do you think this has happened? Is it so Modi, the RSS and the Indian army can march in and hand out chai and biscuits and have some dosa for breakfast?

According to even western liberal outlets such as your beloved Guardian, thousands of political opponents have been arrested without charge, hundreds of civilians...how many will be killed? How many more will be imprisoned? What is the state of the women and children, who were already previously raped, kidnapped, tortured and murdered....don't believe me? Read the UN reports on Jammu and Kashmir...don't believe me? Read eye witness testimonies...don't believe me? Read what Human Rights Watch Asie has to say on the matter.

Tell me, which policy has Imran Khan brought and perpetuated through the army and non army thugs of a similar nature? What has he done on the Azad Kashmir side of things? What has he inflicted on the minorities in other parts of Pakistan?

Modi is not a saint, neither is Imran.

Please read about Balochi oppression after Imran coming to power..

https://www.hrw.org/tag/balochistan
https://unpo.org/article/21536

Counter terrorism is an ugly business. It is so for India and so it is for Pakistan

 

[Kriketer]

Weak pick and terrible comparison between the two. A fascist who allowed murder of 3,000 civilians, spreads social religious hatred, carries nonstop propaganda/hate for his PM campaign, allows army to invade another country over false drama, and puts severe curfew for months with countless human rights violations can't be compared with a leader who wants peace and progress only through dialogues.

 

[barah_admi]

Modi is not a saint, neither is Imran.

Please read about Balochi oppression after Imran coming to power..

https://www.hrw.org/tag/balochistan
https://unpo.org/article/21536

Counter terrorism is an ugly business. It is so for India and so it is for Pakistan

You really have to stop now....whatever may be happening in Balochistan is no where near what is happening in Kashmir...it isn't even close by any comparison whatsoever. You're backtracking is becoming sickening now and the fact that you are even a POTW is a stain on this site.

 

[rhony]

Decent attempt at the comparison between two charismatic leaders. Modi is a nationalist and a fundamentalist. His Godra record aside which was done to protect millions of Muslims in the rest of the country will always be a blot but rest of India and the world seems to have moved on. There has been no discrimination or appeasement for minorities either. He has been good for India and I see him being the PM for another term. Modinomics seem impulsive in the short term but people have to realize that India isn't big enough to dictate the flow of world economy yet. There is only so much a country like India can do when the western world is playing games with China on the trade front. No country will escape the recession. I firmly believe if Kashmir was a Hindu majority state and if the Kashmiris demanded freedom, he would do exactly what he did now. It's not about religion. It's about national interests.

Imran is suave, charismatic but is still a newbie. Imran will be a much more powerful leader in the world if Pakistan is a trillion dollar economy. At present his words are heard as they are being delivered with pin point precision but they Won't have any influence. It remains to be seen how he will accept his fate.