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POTW: Swashbuckler

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Pakistan batsmen's inability to handle bounce is something we have discussed many times but why do we struggle so much?

Congratulations to this weeks POTW winner [MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION] for an excellent attempt at explaining this problem.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...o-poor-against-bounce&p=10285037#post10285037

All teams and players have their nemesis somewhere, same applies to batting units. Indians have generally struggled against conventional swing, SENAW against spin, Bangladesh against seam, Australia also against swing, England against reverse swing etc.

But Pakistan is an unusual team because right throughout its history bounce+pace has been an Achilles heel, even for great Pakistani batsmen like Zaheer Abbas, Miandad, Younis etc. That is a main reason why PCT couldn't conquer Australia and South Africa when they had brilliant bowling units to get the hosts out cheaply twice. Overall they have been excellent against spin, ok against seam, good against swing in fact easily best apart from England/South Africa (mainly 2004-12) and comfortably ahead of India even in recent times.

We saw in the recently concluded South Africa tour where the batsmen were relatively at ease against exaggerated lateral movement pitched up. But when the SA bowlers pitched it halfway down the pitch (as low as 135+, forget express pace like Akhtar, Lee) even the well set batsmen started gifting wickets. To make matters worse most of the wicket taking deliveries weren't well directed bouncers, I am sure many Australian and Indian batsmen would have been ruthless in punishment of those kind of half trackers. Duanne Olivier made his name just by exploiting this weakness which wasn't limited to 1 or 2 batsmen but almost the entire unit, he didn't have other major tools at his disposal. The Lankans were at ease against him in the next series. Today again we saw a surrender against the rising deliveries. These were batsmen in their prime, not 38 year olds with declining reflexes and hand-eye.

My question is why is it the case? The way I understand cricket, simulating swing, seam and spin are harder in net sessions. Simulating steep bounce is very straightforward. You don't even need a proper net session, remember how we used to play gully cricket, when the tennis ball was dipped in water suddenly it would start bouncing steeply. Also there are specifically designed hard plastic balls which can help even low grade gully players learn to tackle bounce. For international teams I am sure they have the best equipment to generate bounce in training sessions. Of all the types of bowling it is my belief that learning to negotiate bounce should be the easiest. Lots of practice and courage are the key ingredients. Technique isn't tested that much unlike against spin, seam or swing, many high quality batsmen who initially struggled against bounce found a way around it without a big change in technique like Steve Waugh, Ganguly, Chanderpaul, Sehwag. Also with bouncers many modes of dismissals are eliminated: bowled, LBW, stumping completely and caught behinds (and straight of the wicket) are rarer.

Indian batsmen were vulnerable against this kind of bowling till 60s/70s, but gradually improved despite shortage of Garners, Holdings, Ambroses and Morkels in our setup or WACA/Gabba/Wanderers kind of domestic pitches. We couldn't improve much against swing because of lack of quality swing bowlers in our domestics. We have deteriorated against spin of late because more of our pitches in FC are too much in favor of seamers resulting in shortage of high quality domestic spinners. Batting against seam has improved for the reason mentioned above. This suggests that handling bounce can be easily set right in the nets under purview of the coach.

The possible conclusions are that-

1) Pak cricket system hasn't identified the problem or considers this a small/non-factor.

2) There is something wrong in the way Pakistani batsmen are groomed in nets, maybe a fault in the training methodology right from junior cricket.

3) Pakistani bowlers (including the ATGs) don't use bouncers as much as other teams, relying more on LBWs and bowleds. Maybe this is an issue stemming from domestics played on low bouncing pitches. If bowlers don't use this weapon, batsmen too aren't sufficiently trained or made aware of their deficit. By the time they make it to internationals and play in SENA it is too late and then begins the mental hurdle. That makes way for my 4th point.

4) After being shielded from pace+bounce at a lower level, when the transition to internationals is made, post first encounter with this kind of bowling the battle becomes mental. There is a culture of fear for the batsmen against short pitched bowling, they are afraid of getting hit, so mental conditioning should be better to solve the problem.
For Indians, Gavaskar, Vishwanath and Amarnath led the way forward and forced a change in batting psychology. If you read about our cricket history before that a common recurring theme is Indian batsmen being afraid of the quicks and backing away towards the legside. This can be logically explained because our 60s/70s batsmen were shielded from physical injury in Ranji/Duleep and when they made their debuts the jarring experience with tall pacy quicks had a lifelong impression. Swing, seam can dismiss a batsman, make him look like a fool but with short pitched stuff there is a fear of getting badly injured.
 
Pakistan batsmen's inability to handle bounce is something we have discussed many times but why do we struggle so much?

Congratulations to this weeks POTW winner [MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION] for an excellent attempt at explaining this problem.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...o-poor-against-bounce&p=10285037#post10285037
What pakistan is best against spin in recent times????what a joke
They lost to srilanka and new Zealand at their home(uae)they can't even chase 150 in 4th innings how can they are best against spin in recent times can you please explain me???
 
Thank you for the POTW recognition :).

What pakistan is best against spin in recent times????what a joke
They lost to srilanka and new Zealand at their home(uae)they can't even chase 150 in 4th innings how can they are best against spin in recent times can you please explain me???

I never said that or made any mention of it in my post. I said overall Pakistan have been excellent against spin, 'overall' in the context of my statement was over the years, i.e. throughout Pakistan's cricket history. And that is true, even the highly rated and feared Indian spin quartet was nullified by Pakistani batsmen in the 70s and early 80s. There are a few exceptions of Pakistan struggling against spinners, but more often than not they have dominated them. During Pakistan's incredible test run in UAE till 2 years back, check the treatment overseas spinners received at the hands of Pakistani batsmen, guys like Younis and Misbah were stupendous.

I used 'recent times' in the context of Pakistanis being better than Indians against swing, this is backed by the contrast in performance by the two teams in England this decade. I think you misread that part.
 
One of the best posters on the site, although I usually read his stuff more on TP than on cricket. Well deserved recognition.
 
This is a very well thought post and quite a good read

Good job Swashy
 
Top top, brilliant analysis.

Our batsmen not improving to the short-ball even after playing international cricket for at least over a year (in case of Hafeez over 16 years, 20 years for Malik!) does not give a good signal.

Failure of Grant Flower and the batsmen both (for not trying to nip out this weakness in practice).

On another note, the umpires allowing 4 to 5 head-high bouncers an over was also unfair on Pakistani batsmen.
 
Thank you for the POTW recognition :).



I never said that or made any mention of it in my post. I said overall Pakistan have been excellent against spin, 'overall' in the context of my statement was over the years, i.e. throughout Pakistan's cricket history. And that is true, even the highly rated and feared Indian spin quartet was nullified by Pakistani batsmen in the 70s and early 80s. There are a few exceptions of Pakistan struggling against spinners, but more often than not they have dominated them. During Pakistan's incredible test run in UAE till 2 years back, check the treatment overseas spinners received at the hands of Pakistani batsmen, guys like Younis and Misbah were stupendous.

I used 'recent times' in the context of Pakistanis being better than Indians against swing, this is backed by the contrast in performance by the two teams in England this decade. I think you misread that part.
How many series they won in England playing swing better than india in recent times??? when was the last time pak won the series in England(swinging coditions)can you tell me please???
 
Thank you for the POTW recognition :).



I never said that or made any mention of it in my post. I said overall Pakistan have been excellent against spin, 'overall' in the context of my statement was over the years, i.e. throughout Pakistan's cricket history. And that is true, even the highly rated and feared Indian spin quartet was nullified by Pakistani batsmen in the 70s and early 80s. There are a few exceptions of Pakistan struggling against spinners, but more often than not they have dominated them. During Pakistan's incredible test run in UAE till 2 years back, check the treatment overseas spinners received at the hands of Pakistani batsmen, guys like Younis and Misbah were stupendous.

I used 'recent times' in the context of Pakistanis being better than Indians against swing, this is backed by the contrast in performance by the two teams in England this decade. I think you misread that part.
Basically you are saying pak batsmen play spin and swing better than india???
I agree with swing ???but spin come on india hasn't lost and draw a series in almost 6 years at home
 
How many series they won in England playing swing better than india in recent times??? when was the last time pak won the series in England(swinging coditions)can you tell me please???

Pakistan may not have won in England in recent times but they have performed better, even with the bat. Our last 3 tours to England read 0-4, 1-3, 1-4. Dravid shone in 2011, Vijay (inconsistently) in 2014 and Kohli in 2018, except one or two other knocks (Rahane Lord's, Pujara Rose Bowl) our batting was pants. Pakistan drew the series in 2016 and 2018, the former was a classic series for a neutral like me. In the controversial 2010 series Pakistan lost 1-3. It isn't just about won series, Pakistan have matched England toe to toe while India has been crushed in the 2010s. Our bowling in 2014 was good, in 2018 excellent but batsmen couldn't come to the party.

Pakistan last won a series in England in 1996 while India did it in 2007. But you have to remember that our 2007-10 team was possibly the greatest in our history. Our 2000s team had the services of fab 4, Ganguly, Zaheer, Kumble, Harbhajan etc, so of course our overseas showings were better. On the other hand Pakistan had its weaker teams (by historical standards) post 2000 but still performed well in England.

Again historically speaking Pakistan has the best record in England among Asian teams. If I recall correctly Pakistan has 8-9 double centuries in England, India just 2 (Gavaskar, Dravid) despite the rich batting history. Batting average for Pakistan in England too is higher than India's.

Basically you are saying pak batsmen play spin and swing better than india???
I agree with swing ???but spin come on india hasn't lost and draw a series in almost 6 years at home

I never compared the 2 countries against spin. I just said that Pakistanis have historically been excellent against spin, barring exceptions. India too has been exceptional in this regard, though of late there has been a fall in standard compared to our highs of 90s and 2000s. Pujara is an exception and can be counted as one of the greatest ever against spin bowling, no matter what the surface. We have been on a terrific home run because other teams too have declined against spin (Pak was one team that could have challenged us in 2013-16 period), besides we have an excellent spin attack and Pujara to see us through. We have also been very clutch and different players have stepped up at various points of time to help us win crucial moments.
 
Pakistan may not have won in England in recent times but they have performed better, even with the bat. Our last 3 tours to England read 0-4, 1-3, 1-4. Dravid shone in 2011, Vijay (inconsistently) in 2014 and Kohli in 2018, except one or two other knocks (Rahane Lord's, Pujara Rose Bowl) our batting was pants. Pakistan drew the series in 2016 and 2018, the former was a classic series for a neutral like me. In the controversial 2010 series Pakistan lost 1-3. It isn't just about won series, Pakistan have matched England toe to toe while India has been crushed in the 2010s. Our bowling in 2014 was good, in 2018 excellent but batsmen couldn't come to the party.

Pakistan last won a series in England in 1996 while India did it in 2007. But you have to remember that our 2007-10 team was possibly the greatest in our history. Our 2000s team had the services of fab 4, Ganguly, Zaheer, Kumble, Harbhajan etc, so of course our overseas showings were better. On the other hand Pakistan had its weaker teams (by historical standards) post 2000 but still performed well in England.

Again historically speaking Pakistan has the best record in England among Asian teams. If I recall correctly Pakistan has 8-9 double centuries in England, India just 2 (Gavaskar, Dravid) despite the rich batting history. Batting average for Pakistan in England too is higher than India's.



I never compared the 2 countries against spin. I just said that Pakistanis have historically been excellent against spin, barring exceptions. India too has been exceptional in this regard, though of late there has been a fall in standard compared to our highs of 90s and 2000s. Pujara is an exception and can be counted as one of the greatest ever against spin bowling, no matter what the surface. We have been on a terrific home run because other teams too have declined against spin (Pak was one team that could have challenged us in 2013-16 period), besides we have an excellent spin attack and Pujara to see us through. We have also been very clutch and different players have stepped up at various points of time to help us win crucial moments.
Pakistan hasn't won a series in England for almost 2decades
2decades is not recent times i think yes they play swing better but where is the results???
In 2018 they played just 2 matches and completely surrendered in 2nd match?
 
Congratulations to [MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION]. Another commendable post. Keep them coming :)
 
Swashbuckling post. Thanks for your contribution.
 
Babar and Shan play the short ball well. Problem I think is that Shan failed on the slow UAE tracks so he wasn't selected. A mistake in my opinion. That guy would do better on pitches where the ball comes on better.
 
Pakistan may not have won in England in recent times but they have performed better, even with the bat. Our last 3 tours to England read 0-4, 1-3, 1-4. Dravid shone in 2011, Vijay (inconsistently) in 2014 and Kohli in 2018, except one or two other knocks (Rahane Lord's, Pujara Rose Bowl) our batting was pants. Pakistan drew the series in 2016 and 2018, the former was a classic series for a neutral like me. In the controversial 2010 series Pakistan lost 1-3. It isn't just about won series, Pakistan have matched England toe to toe while India has been crushed in the 2010s. Our bowling in 2014 was good, in 2018 excellent but batsmen couldn't come to the party.

Pakistan last won a series in England in 1996 while India did it in 2007. But you have to remember that our 2007-10 team was possibly the greatest in our history. Our 2000s team had the services of fab 4, Ganguly, Zaheer, Kumble, Harbhajan etc, so of course our overseas showings were better. On the other hand Pakistan had its weaker teams (by historical standards) post 2000 but still performed well in England.

Again historically speaking Pakistan has the best record in England among Asian teams. If I recall correctly Pakistan has 8-9 double centuries in England, India just 2 (Gavaskar, Dravid) despite the rich batting history. Batting average for Pakistan in England too is higher than India's.



I never compared the 2 countries against spin. I just said that Pakistanis have historically been excellent against spin, barring exceptions. India too has been exceptional in this regard, though of late there has been a fall in standard compared to our highs of 90s and 2000s. Pujara is an exception and can be counted as one of the greatest ever against spin bowling, no matter what the surface. We have been on a terrific home run because other teams too have declined against spin (Pak was one team that could have challenged us in 2013-16 period), besides we have an excellent spin attack and Pujara to see us through. We have also been very clutch and different players have stepped up at various points of time to help us win crucial moments.

Very good post. The 2010 series you mentioned could have been 2-2 as well. One game we let England go from 102-7 to about 500 after dropping countless catches.

Sadly I think every team will target us when it comes to short bowling and we can't seem to handle it at all. This WC I am convinced we will probably lose every game the way you're going.
 
Babar and Shan play the short ball well. Problem I think is that Shan failed on the slow UAE tracks so he wasn't selected. A mistake in my opinion. That guy would do better on pitches where the ball comes on better.

I am not sure who they would slot him for, Imam and Fakhar won't be dropped. They will bring in Malik for Sohail and won't drop Hafeez either.
 
I am not sure who they would slot him for, Imam and Fakhar won't be dropped. They will bring in Malik for Sohail and won't drop Hafeez either.

Yeah I know that. And those changes won't make any difference. Malik is no better than any of these batters are against the short ball. Haris got a scorcher of a ball that would
have got a lot of batsmen out. I think Pakistan, if they bat first on monday, should just play a bit more cautiously in the first 5 overs and have backup plans for pitches that are not ultra flat. Pakistan-England series had the easiest batting conditions that have been observed in over 13 years. Looks like CWC pitches are going to be a bit more challenging than that.
 
Very good post. The 2010 series you mentioned could have been 2-2 as well. One game we let England go from 102-7 to about 500 after dropping countless catches.

I believe it was the one where Broad scored 170.

1-3 was a tremendous result considering 3 players including the captain were busy fixing, when such key players had their minds in areas other than giving their best for their country the campaign was already screwed. Just before that series Pakistan also drew a series against a still formidable Australia in England, and it was more surprising since Australia had the mental hold over PCT both home and away for the last 12 odd years.

It is a testament to how smoothly PCT adjusts to English conditions, in the last 20 years a WC final, CT/WT20 triumph, multiple closely fought test series, the 2010 one when there was mutiny/turmoil within the camp. PCB and Ijaz Butt especially scored a massive self goal by antagonizing ECB, because England would have been a natural venue to host Pakistan's matches, not just the conditions but also a large, passionate contingent of PCT fans in the country.

Sadly I think every team will target us when it comes to short bowling and we can't seem to handle it at all. This WC I am convinced we will probably lose every game the way you're going.

Don't lose hope yet, Pakistan may not qualify to semis but can still hold their heads high and give joy to fans in the coming days. Our start in 2003 WC was way worse, coming fresh from a shellacking in NZ, we narrowly avoided an upset against Netherlands, got humiliated by Australia and then 'boom' 8 consecutive victories. I am not comparing the personnel of that Indian team and this Pakistani team but who knows there could be future stars in the making in the current Pakistan team. They may still shine and carry over the memories, experience to future assignments.

I believe that against teams like SA, Eng, Aus, NZ maybe even Ind you will be bombarded with short pacy stuff. The funny thing in these situations is other mistakes crop up when one chooses to extensively focus on one deficit. We were flummoxed by swing in England in 2014 and then gave heaps of gifts to the spinners, Ponting had a major flaw against spin in India but even the quicks took advantage of his mental state and repeatedly got his scalp. Pakistan may still avoid capitulation against short bowling but don't be surprised if new, weird modes of dismissal open up, they may yet make heroes out of spinners and mediocre trundlers.
 
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India were always good against swing. They struggled against bounce. This was the case till Tendulkar, Ganguly era.
Just check scorecard against Australia in Australia in 90's and in England in same time period.
India have failed recently against England because:1.) They have concentrated on playing bounce better thereby weakening their technique against swing and 2.) They don't have the same temperament.

Also, India always had good swing bowlers (e.g. Venkatesh Prasad, Pathan, etc). What they didn't have was someone who could hit the deck hard. Only recently we are seeing a few bowlers who could extract bounce from pitch.
 
India were always good against swing. They struggled against bounce. This was the case till Tendulkar, Ganguly era.

Our record in England paints a different picture. Better record in Australia despite Australia being a more dominant test team for majority of its history and our bowlers being better in English conditions than the Aussie ones.

Just check scorecard against Australia in Australia in 90's and in England in same time period.

90s Australia was damn good, 90s England not that impressive. Anyway we lost every time in SENAW between 1986 to 2001, we were a pathetic touring side back then.

Let us stick to Pakistan here, that is what the topic is about.
 
Our record in England paints a different picture. Better record in Australia despite Australia being a more dominant test team for majority of its history and our bowlers being better in English conditions than the Aussie ones.



90s Australia was damn good, 90s England not that impressive. Anyway we lost every time in SENAW between 1986 to 2001, we were a pathetic touring side back then.

Let us stick to Pakistan here, that is what the topic is about.

You talked about India in your post. And I misunderstood several other statements to be about India when they were about Pakistan. My mistake, moving on.
 
Our record in England paints a different picture. Better record in Australia despite Australia being a more dominant test team for majority of its history and our bowlers being better in English conditions than the Aussie ones.



90s Australia was damn good, 90s England not that impressive. Anyway we lost every time in SENAW between 1986 to 2001, we were a pathetic touring side back then.

Let us stick to Pakistan here, that is what the topic is about.

How many series pakistan won from 1986 to 2001???in england Australia and southafrica
 
How many series pakistan won from 1986 to 2001???in england Australia and southafrica

3 consecutive series wins in England (87, 92, 96)
A legendary drawn series in West Indies (88)
Drawn series in South Africa (97-98)
Test win in Sydney (95 or 96)

Pakistan has never won a test series in either SA or Aus, won in WI for the first time in 2017.
 
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