Proud my ancestors converted

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] bhai wrote this in response to a post on another thread.

My ancestors were conquered a lot later than yours. Who gave up everything. I till this day follow the culture and religion my ancestors followed for 3000 years, what about you?

I think it's important to clear this misconception which seems to be prevalent in the minds of many Indian Non-Muslims.

Firstly important to realise so many people cannot be forced to convert. Islam was seen as a progressive religion where women were given many rights such as being able to own their own property, land etc. Earn their own earnings and the level of respect for women in general was much higher than the religions of India where women set themselves on fire after the death of their husbands. This is just one example of many including charity, rights of the poor etc which made Islam more preferable to people.

I have respect for other religions and wont insult any other faith but as a Muslim for me worshipping idols is a great sin, the only sin which cannot be forgiven.

So even IF my ancestors were forced to convert, I'm so glad there were. I have no sadness or regret over this all, I am very happy it happened.

 

[Traveller55]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] bhai wrote this in response to a post on another thread.



I think it's important to clear this misconception which seems to be prevalent in the minds of many Indian Non-Muslims.

Firstly important to realise so many people cannot be forced to convert. Islam was seen as a progressive religion where women were given many rights such as being able to own their own property, land etc. Earn their own earnings and the level of respect for women in general was much higher than the religions of India where women set themselves on fire after the death of their husbands. This is just one example of many including charity, rights of the poor etc which made Islam more preferable to people.

I have respect for other religions and wont insult any other faith but as a Muslim for me worshipping idols is a great sin, the only sin which cannot be forgiven.

So even IF my ancestors were forced to convert, I'm so glad there were. I have no sadness or regret over this all, I am very happy it happened.

Sorry, but the first hand reports of official biographers of Mehmoud of Ghazni, Mohammed of Ghor, Ala-ud-din Khilji etc contradict that claim. They openly state that they force-converted hundreds of thousands of people, which 1000 years ago was a significant number.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sorry, but the first hand reports of official biographers of Mehmoud of Ghazni, Mohammed of Ghor, Ala-ud-din Khilji etc contradict that claim. They openly state that they force-converted hundreds of thousands of people, which 1000 years ago was a significant number.

Ok, for arguments sake I accept this.

Still fine by me if they forced my ancestors to stop worshipping stones and statues. I've only benefited.

 

[TM Riddle]

What is wrong with worshipping stones?

 

[TM Riddle]

I mean it's fine if you want to list out the virtues of your religion and how it makes you a better person and all that. Cool by me. But what's with this insulting attitude towards Hinduism?
Thats a disgusting attitude to have and you are supposed to be living in England , a developed Nation.

 

[KingKhanWC]

What is wrong with worshipping stones?

If someone want to worship them it's fine by me, I respect their rights and will not disrespect them but idol worship is a grave sin for a Muslim. We believe there is ONE God and we do not associate any other Gods or partners with him.

The point of the thread is to let Indian Non-Muslims such as joshila bhai know myself and most other Muslims from the sub continent are not worried by this history, it's a great thing which happened for us to be born into Muslim households. Personally I feel I still would have left any other religion and became a Muslim at some point in my life but it's better to be born into a Muslim family.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I mean it's fine if you want to list out the virtues of your religion and how it makes you a better person and all that. Cool by me. But what's with this insulting attitude towards Hinduism?
Thats a disgusting attitude to have and you are supposed to be living in England , a developed Nation.

I've not insulted Hinduism, stop being touchy. I'm trying to explain comments made in the OP have little importance to many Muslims from the sub continent as people like Joshila bhai think.

 

[TM Riddle]

No real evidence of works written by Muslim writers such as Khusrau and Barani in praise of their Kings? Waah! In one stroke this guy demolished the entire Indian medieval history.
I am at loss of words here.

 

[KingKhanWC]

No real evidence of works written by Muslim writers such as Khusrau and Barani in praise of their Kings? Waah! In one stroke this guy demolished the entire Indian medieval history.
I am at loss of words here.

Since you think you are a great historian, let me ask you the same question.

Do you accept there are many who converted by choice or do you think EACH and EVERYONE was forced?

 

[TM Riddle]

Speaking of forced conversion , An interesting case of Sikandar Shah.
He was a Muslim King of kashmir between 1389-1413 and under his orders a vehement persecution of Brahmans began. The Sultan ordered that all Brahmans and learned Hindus should become Muslims or leave the valley . Their temples were to be destroyed and the idols of gold and silver to be melted down in order to be used for currency.
Thousands of Brahmins were slaughtered for refusing to convert.
The situation changed only when Zainul Abidin came to power and had all those orders cancelled.
People should feel free to cross check this with other sources if they wish .

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I mean it's fine if you want to list out the virtues of your religion and how it makes you a better person and all that. Cool by me. But what's with this insulting attitude towards Hinduism?
Thats a disgusting attitude to have and you are supposed to be living in England , a developed Nation.

Looking down on others is a very English thing to do, it is part of what makes us Great Britain. Being a Developed Nation gives us that right, and if you believe in caste system, you should understand why.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Speaking of forced conversion , An interesting case of Sikandar Shah.
He was a Muslim King of kashmir between 1389-1413 and under his orders a vehement persecution of Brahmans began. The Sultan ordered that all Brahmans and learned Hindus should become Muslims or leave the valley . Their temples were to be destroyed and the idols of gold and silver to be melted down in order to be used for currency.
Thousands of Brahmins were slaughtered for refusing to convert.
The situation changed only when Zainul Abidin came to power and had all those orders cancelled.
People should feel free to cross check this with other sources if they wish .

Dude, nobody is interested in heroic folk stories which have been told to kids of a certain religion so they feel their ancestors were some kind of great resistors.

Your's and maybe mine too were no great resistance. A small amount of Muslims came one day and eventually Muslims ruled many parts of India for hundreds of years. These people put up a pathetic fight, let's not get away from this due to personal pride.

 

[TM Riddle]

Since you think you are a great historian, let me ask you the same question.

Do you accept there are many who converted by choice or do you think EACH and EVERYONE was forced?

Lol of course not. That's not how it works. IMO majority converted to get out of caste oppression and under the influence of Sufi saints who played a huge role in getting people coming into the fold of Islam.
Next comes the ones who were forcibly converted . Those were mostly around the NW regions of India.
Some of them also switched sides in order to get the political advantage of following the religion of rulers. For instance Kayamkhani muslim Rajputs from Rajasthan. Or the Ranghar Rajputs from western UP and Haryana(though in their case I think it was more due to Sufi influence) . Plenty of Ranghars migrated to Pakistan after partition.

 

[TM Riddle]

Dude, nobody is interested in heroic folk stories which have been told to kids of a certain religion so they feel their ancestors were some kind of great resistors.

Your's and maybe mine too were no great resistance. A small amount of Muslims came one day and eventually Muslims ruled many parts of India for hundreds of years. These people put up a pathetic fight, let's not get away from this due to personal pride.

Mere bhai I'm not propagating some Pundit Propaganda here. I'm quoting directly from an authentic source. How about you start doing some reading on the subject and then come up with a retort?
Oh mine was a great resistance. That I know for a fact.

 

[Traveller55]

Dude, nobody is interested in heroic folk stories which have been told to kids of a certain religion so they feel their ancestors were some kind of great resistors.

Your's and maybe mine too were no great resistance. A small amount of Muslims came one day and eventually Muslims ruled many parts of India for hundreds of years. .

Classic ignorance.
The genocides of Ghor, Bin Qasim, Ghazni, Khilji etc are not from Hindu sources. They are from official biographies of their own muslim courtiers. Ie, original muslim sources.

These people put up a pathetic fight, let's not get away from this due to personal pride

you mean the state of muslims today in face of overwhelming western superiority ?
As the saying goes- every dog has its day/even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometime. The age of islam, is drawing to a close. First goes the power (already done). Next will be mass appeal (already underway).

 

[cricketjoshila]

Mere bhai I'm not propagating some Pundit Propaganda here. I'm quoting directly from an authentic source. How about you start doing some reading on the subject and then come up with a retort?
Oh mine was a great resistance. That I know for a fact.

May be he will like to name the places or regions around the world which were conquered by Muslim invaders, yet the majority of population kept their original religion and culture. That will tell him about who put up a resistance who didnot.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Classic ignorance.
The genocides of Ghor, Bin Qasim, Ghazni, Khilji etc are not from Hindu sources. They are from official biographies of their own muslim courtiers. Ie, original muslim sources.



you mean the state of muslims today in face of overwhelming western superiority ?
As the saying goes- every dog has its day/even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometime. The age of islam, is drawing to a close. First goes the power (already done). Next will be mass appeal (already underway).

I don't know why a lot of people pretend that conversion to islam did not happen through coercion in many cases when the biographies of these monarchs actually praise them for converting the natives . when voluntary conversions did take place it was well after Islamic kingdoms had been established throughout the SC. Intially it was all forced.

 

[TM Riddle]

May be he will like to name the places or regions around the world which were conquered by Muslim invaders, yet the majority of population kept their original religion and culture. That will tell him about who put up a resistance who didnot.

I have no issues with People converting . But it's this ignorance which has been peddled by the likes of op , I have problems with. At least be man enough to call a spade a spade.

 

[TM Riddle]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Why did the Parsis and Iranis fled from Persia to India during medieval times?

 

[cricketjoshila]

I have no issues with People converting . But it's this ignorance which has been peddled by the likes of op , I have problems with. At least be man enough to call a spade a spade.

He wants to know about resistance. That will tell him about resistance. The majority of the subcontinent still follows the religion they followed 3000 years ago. The rest areas conquered by muslim invading armies, be it in persia or arab lands or africa or central asia or afghanistan left their original religion. What did the muslim invaders did is recorded history.

Similarly when the europeans conquered Americas they converted the entire continent, something they failed to do in India.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

May be he will like to name the places or regions around the world which were conquered by Muslim invaders, yet the majority of population kept their original religion and culture. That will tell him about who put up a resistance who didnot.

If all these places have kept their original religion and culture, why would you need a Hindutva movement which has culminated in a political party winning power on the promise to reclaim the Hindu heritage of the nation? That doesn't really make sense does it?

 

[cricketjoshila]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] Why did the Parsis and Iranis fled from Persia to India during medieval times?

Why did the jews flee?
[MENTION=146517]Traveller55[/MENTION]

Any idea about the spanish view on the muslim rule?

 

[Rayyman]

Agree with [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] bhai.

I'm happy as Muslim regardless of what happened in past. Each human gets their own choice of what religion they want and I choose Islam nobody is forcing me.

Some Indians need to stop being close-minded here.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If all these places have kept their original religion and culture, why would you need a Hindutva movement which has culminated in a political party winning power on the promise to reclaim the Hindu heritage of the nation? That doesn't really make sense does it?

The party won because the opposition was incompetent and corrupt. When statements like " muslims have the first right on countrys resources" are made then changes need to be made. In India every religion has equal rights. No one has first rights.

Lastly, when choice is between Rahul Gandhi and Narendra Modi, its easy to choose.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Agree with [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] bhai.

I'm happy as Muslim regardless of what happened in past. Each human gets their own choice of what religion they want and I choose Islam nobody is forcing me.

Some Indians need to stop being close-minded here.

Disagree. I think it's good that they get it off their chest, already we have seen a lot of derogatory remarks based on race and regions, so it's a good insight into their mindset and what might be underlying issues.

 

[kaayal]

The party won because the opposition was incompetent and corrupt. When statements like " muslims have the first right on countrys resources" are made then changes need to be made. In India every religion has equal rights. No one has first rights.

Lastly, when choice is between Rahul Gandhi and Narendra Modi, its easy to choose.

Can you share the link for the bolded part. Haven't read this tbh.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Agree with [MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] bhai.

I'm happy as Muslim regardless of what happened in past. Each human gets their own choice of what religion they want and I choose Islam nobody is forcing me.


Some Indians need to stop being close-minded here.

Do you also agree with KKWC that Indians are subservient as they got conquered by muslim armies? When his own region got conquered before mine and his own ancestors converted ( we dont know under what circumstances) while mine retained theirs.

Thats the context of discussion. Not who is happy who is not today.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The party won because the opposition was incompetent and corrupt. When statements like " muslims have the first right on countrys resources" are made then changes need to be made. In India every religion has equal rights. No one has first rights.

Lastly, when choice is between Rahul Gandhi and Narendra Modi, its easy to choose.

Sorry but that is just a cop out. If you aren't even going to acknowledge the BJP's own Hindutva constitution and their reasons given, then you should stop making silly boasts about holding onto your culture and religion. We see plenty of Indians in Britain remember, we can see very well how you hold onto these things.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Can you share the link for the bolded part. Haven't read this tbh.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.ti...im-on-resources-PM/amp_articleshow/754937.cms


Btw here is a muslim whose ancestors converted peacefully.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Sorry but that is just a cop out. If you aren't even going to acknowledge the BJP's own Hindutva constitution and their reasons given, then you should stop making silly boasts about holding onto your culture and religion. We see plenty of Indians in Britain remember, we can see very well how you hold onto these things.

India runs on Indian constitution and not BJPs constitution.

 

[TM Riddle]

For instance in Rajasthan , most of the conversions happened peacefully.

 

[Rayyman]

Do you also agree with KKWC that Indians are subservient as they got conquered by muslim armies? When his own region got conquered before mine and his own ancestors converted ( we dont know under what circumstances) while mine retained theirs.

Thats the context of discussion. Not who is happy who is not today.

Bro it doesn't matter what happened 100s of years ago. The only relation you have to those people is genetic.

For example, I am an ancestor of Genghis Khan. Yes, he was a great conqueror, but that doesn't give me any semblance of pride because I did not contribute to his greatness in any way.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The Janjua Rajputs are one example of peaceful conversion.

Keralite Muslims too.

 

[TM Riddle]

Bro it doesn't matter what happened 100s of years ago. The only relation you have to those people is genetic.

For example, I am an ancestor of Genghis Khan. Yes, he was a great conqueror, but that doesn't give me any semblance of pride because I did not contribute to his greatness in any way.

Interesting. You are a part Mongol?

 

[Gabbar Singh]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] bhai wrote this in response to a post on another thread.



I think it's important to clear this misconception which seems to be prevalent in the minds of many Indian Non-Muslims.

Firstly important to realise so many people cannot be forced to convert. Islam was seen as a progressive religion where women were given many rights such as being able to own their own property, land etc. Earn their own earnings and the level of respect for women in general was much higher than the religions of India where women set themselves on fire after the death of their husbands. This is just one example of many including charity, rights of the poor etc which made Islam more preferable to people.

I have respect for other religions and wont insult any other faith but as a Muslim for me worshipping idols is a great sin, the only sin which cannot be forgiven.

So even IF my ancestors were forced to convert, I'm so glad there were. I have no sadness or regret over this all, I am very happy it happened.

KK, interesting and honest thread.

One question, do you really respect other religions? I don't mean this in a 'you are a bad person for not respecting them' way but it's quite the opposite actually. Why bother giving something respect which you believe goes against the word of God? If the Koran, which Muslims believe is the word of god, explicitly forbids practice X, Y and Z then why would you respect a religion which incorporates X, Y and Z? Why respect something that promotes sinfulness?

 

[TM Riddle]

The Janjua Rajputs are one example of peaceful conversion.

Keralite Muslims too.

Janjuas and Ghorewahas both.

 

[www787]

What has happened in past few years in India shows that Hindu majority is insecure. Trying to pass laws that favor Hindu majority, politician given out statements against minority. Part of that insecurity is created by current radical hindu rulling party to get the votes and part come from what has had happened to India, invaded then divided into 3 different countries. As i see it, radicalism will rise further in India regardless of how rich of a country it will become.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Bro it doesn't matter what happened 100s of years ago. The only relation you have to those people is genetic.

For example, I am an ancestor of Genghis Khan. Yes, he was a great conqueror, but that doesn't give me any semblance of pride because I did not contribute to his greatness in any way.

Bro you are missing the context.

I support the Afghan people in their right to defend their land against invaders. You as a Indian have a mentality of letting invaders come in and take over, just like your ansectors. Afghans have more self respect.

Drones are allowed in, even the Americans themselves have stated this on many occasions and you being their lackey should accept their word all the time not when it suits you.

Your own army says that drones are not allowed. Still US drones continue their attacks.

My ancestors were conquered a lot later than yours. Who gave up everything. I till this day follow the culture and religion my ancestors follwed for 3000 years, what about you?

Is supporting Taliban allowed in UK?

This is the context. KKWC thinks Indians ate subservient, Bangladeshis pathetic and irrelevant. People are going to show him the mirror. When he got burnt he now tries to make it a Muslim vs others issue. Dont fall for it.

 

[Rayyman]

Interesting. You are a part Mongol?

Even if I am it doesn't matter just an example

 

[Lonewarrior]

KK, interesting and honest thread.

One question, do you really respect other religions? I don't mean this in a 'you are a bad person for not respecting them' way but it's quite the opposite actually. Why bother giving something respect which you believe goes against the word of God? If the Koran, which Muslims believe is the word of god, explicitly forbids practice X, Y and Z then why would you respect a religion which incorporates X, Y and Z? Why respect something that promotes sinfulness?

I make it simple for you bro,
Becoz Allah ( The GOD ) Said.

 

[CricFan2012]

Lots were converted for better trade deals as well

 

[kaayal]

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.ti...im-on-resources-PM/amp_articleshow/754937.cms


Btw here is a muslim whose ancestors converted peacefully.

Exact words from the link:
“We will have to devise innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority, are empowered to share equitably the fruits of development. These must have the first claim on resources,” he said in his address at the 52nd meeting of the National Development Council

He was refering the "minorities" in general including the OBC's, SC,ST etc. And muslims being the bigger minority he singled it out. If everyone were given first access to the Centre's resources, it would leave nothing for the minorities who probably need them the most, in a resource state already stretched to its capacity. He was refering to them as not well off groups that need to be uplifted.

I must say the media has done a great job for the opposition by misquoting him.

 

[TM Riddle]

Lots were converted for better trade deals as well

Malayalis.

 

[kaayal]

The Janjua Rajputs are one example of peaceful conversion.

Keralite Muslims too.

I don't know what my ancestors did and i don't care. What matters to me is my relationship with my Lord right now.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Exact words from the link:
“We will have to devise innovative plans to ensure that minorities, particularly the Muslim minority, are empowered to share equitably the fruits of development. These must have the first claim on resources,” he said in his address at the 52nd meeting of the National Development Council

He was refering the "minorities" in general including the OBC's, SC,ST etc. And muslims being the bigger minority he singled it out. If everyone were given first access to the Centre's resources, it would leave nothing for the minorities who probably need them the most, in a resource state already stretched to its capacity. He was refering to them as not well off groups that need to be uplifted.

I must say the media has done a great job for the opposition by misquoting him.

Obcs sc st are not minorities. They are hindus mostly.

I listened to that speech of his.

If he had said poor people should have first right, i would agree. But he didnot say that.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I don't know what my ancestors did and i don't care. What matters to me is my relationship with my Lord right now.

But you dont go around calling others ancestors as subservient, do you? According to kkwc indians are subservient and his view on indian muslims us well known.

Kerala muslims were the first muslims of SC. Converted peacefully and through traxe relations etc. I wonder if he even knows that muslims existed on these lands before muhammad qasim.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

India runs on Indian constitution and not BJPs constitution.

Another cop out. That's got no relation to the point I made, which was why there would need to be a Hindutva movement in the first place if - as you claimed - Hindus held onto their religion and culture.

 

[Nostalgic]

For example, I am an ancestor of Genghis Khan. Yes, he was a great conqueror, but that doesn't give me any semblance of pride because I did not contribute to his greatness in any way.

I think you contributed to his greatness in a very significant way.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Another cop out. That's got no relation to the point I made, which was why there would need to be a Hindutva movement in the first place if - as you claimed - Hindus held onto their religion and culture.

What movement? Bjp is in power bevause the others are poor and corrupt. If Modi had a credible competent opposition he may not have won.

 

[TM Riddle]

I think you contributed to his greatness in a very significant way.

)
What about you Nostalgic. How did they manage to convert you?

 

[Greenstorm]

Oh I see. Arians benefited a lot from the Canal reforms of British at the beginning of 20th century. One of the dominant groups in Punjab and parts of Sindh.

What about Awans ?

 

[CricketCartoons]

OP is wrong. It should be "reverted".

 

[TM Riddle]

What about Awans ?

They were classified under Martial race by the British. Excellent Soldiers. Tan Tai yong in his masterpiece 'Garrison State' have written about them.

 

[Musakhel]

I don't know how my ancestors converted but they were probably involved in the expansion of Islam in the subcontinent by sword or peacefully.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If conquerors like them forcefully converted every hindu, then there would've been no two nation theory, no hindus in the sub-continent.

The hindus didnot give up so easily.

 

[kaayal]

Obcs sc st are not minorities. They are hindus mostly.

I listened to that speech of his.

If he had said poor people should have first right, i would agree. But he didnot say that.

I will share another article without the jingoistic headlines from the times of India. He did talk about the upliftment of SC,ST, OBC's, minorities and women in the same speech you are refering to.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/Minorities-must-have-first-claim-on-resources-Manmohan-Singh/article16905924.ece/amp/

Stop reading the times. It's polluting everyones mind.

 

[Alam_dar]

Real Islam: Idolaters have to either accept Islam, or they should be slaughtered

Real Islam: Jizya is only allowed for "People of the Book" (i.e. Jews/Christians/Zoroastrians). If they pay Jizya, then they will not be compelled to change their religion.

Real Islam: The very of "there is no compulsion in Religion" was later "abrogated" by the verse of sword (i.e. to kill the Idolaters wherever they are found).


Therefore, actual Islamic Ruling is to kill all Hindus, all Buddhists, all Atheists ...


The largest Islam Fatwa Website is "Islam Question Answers" which is run by the Saudi Mufties. Let us see what they say:

//

https://islamqa.info/en/34770

The scholars explained that these two verses (i.e. the verse of No Compulsion) and other similar verses, have to do (only) with those from whom the jizyah may be taken (i.e. People of Book), such as Jews, Christians and Magians. They are not to be forced (to convert to Islam), rather they are to be given the choice between becoming Muslim or paying the jizyah.

Other scholars said that this (i.e. No compulsion in the religion) was applied in the beginning, but was subsequently abrogated by Allaah’s command to fight and wage jihad. So whoever refuses to enter Islam should be fought when the Muslims are able to fight, until they either enter Islam forcefully or pay the jizyah if they are among the people who may pay jizyah (i.e. People of the Book).

While the kuffaar should be compelled to enter Islam if they are not people from the people of the Book, because that will lead to their happiness and salvation in this world and in the Hereafter.

Obliging a person to adhere to the truth in which is guidance and happiness is better for him than falsehood. Just as a person may be forced to do the duty that he owes to other people even if that is by means of imprisonment or beating, so forcing the kaafirs to believe in Allaah alone and enter into the religion of Islam is more important and more essential, because this will lead to their happiness in this world and in the Hereafter. This applies unless they are People of the Book, i.e., Jews and Christians, or Magians, because Islam says that these three groups may be given the choice: they may enter Islam or they may pay the jizyah and feel themselves subdued.

Some of the scholars are of the view that others may also be given the choice between Islam and jizyah, but the most correct view is that no others should be given this choice, rather these three groups are the only ones who may be given the choice, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fought the kuffaar in the Arabian Peninsula and he only accepted their becoming Muslim (otherwise he killed them). And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

He did not say, “if they pay the jizyah”. The Jews, Christians and Magians are to be asked to enter Islam; if they refuse then they should be asked to pay the jizyah. If they refuse to pay the jizyah then the Muslims must fight them if they are able to do so. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

[al-Tawbah 9:29]

//

 

[cricketworm]

How can you be proud of one religion if you weren't exposed to 4200 other religions since birth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

"Thappa Kidhar hai"

 

[R3verse Swing]

I mean it's fine if you want to list out the virtues of your religion and how it makes you a better person and all that. Cool by me. But what's with this insulting attitude towards Hinduism?
Thats a disgusting attitude to have and you are supposed to be living in England , a developed Nation.

I can assure you even living in England, no faith is spared from ridicule, including Christianity.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I can assure you even living in England, no faith is spared from ridicule, including Christianity.

That is wrong. Criticism is fine, but ridicule? Personally prefer criticism which comes from insiders who intend to reform. Criticising someone else's religion while being proud of yours is hypocrisy as every religion has some dubious teachings/practices..more or less.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I can assure you even living in England, no faith is spared from ridicule, including Christianity.

Why should anyone's faith be ridiculed? Its his belief in his God. Let him be.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I will share another article without the jingoistic headlines from the times of India. He did talk about the upliftment of SC,ST, OBC's, minorities and women in the same speech you are refering to.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/Minorities-must-have-first-claim-on-resources-Manmohan-Singh/article16905924.ece/amp/

Stop reading the times. It's polluting everyones mind.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Saturday said "innovative plans" would have to be devised for the minorities, particularly Muslims, to empower them to share equitably the fruits of development.

"These must have the first claim on resources."


This is from the article you posted. I do not understand why not upliftment of the poor, why muslim sc st needs to be mentioned.

 

[Alam_dar]

Strange, religions want to have the right to "Preach", but they are not ready to give the right to "Criticize" them.

When it comes to criticism, then they prohibit it in name of "Respect of Religion" or by using the "Blasphemy" charges.

 

[TM Riddle]

I can assure you even living in England, no faith is spared from ridicule, including Christianity.

Like CC said a healthy criticism is fine but ridiculing and insulting to score cheap points is something which no progressive society would endorse.

 

[TM Riddle]

Strange, religions want to have the right to "Preach", but they are not ready to give the right to "Criticize" them.

When it comes to criticism, then they prohibit it in name of "Respect of Religion" or by using the "Blasphemy" charges.

There should definitely be a scope for criticism but mocking a religion just for the sake of it is plain wrong imo.

 

[DRsohail]

My ancestors were hindus as people say but yes i am proud and feel the same as th Op say,not disrespecting hinduism.
and have no problem with them following there religion but feel happy for myself.

 

[Alam_dar]

Like CC said a healthy criticism is fine but ridiculing and insulting to score cheap points is something which no progressive society would endorse.

Sir, I don't know about the Indian government and Hindu Dharam, but for sure Islamic Sharia does not even allow the healthy criticism.

In pure Islamic society (times of Sahaba), idolaters had no right even to stay "alive". In 9th year, the final orders came under which all the kuffar should be compelled to convert to Islam, otherwise they had to be killed (see my 2nd last post above for references from Quran and Hadith).

Only "the people of Book" were allowed to pay the Jizya and to follow their religion, but in a subdued manner where they were not allowed to preach or to convert any Muslim towards any other religion.

 

[Musakhel]

Real Islam: Idolaters have to either accept Islam, or they should be slaughtered

Real Islam: Jizya is only allowed for "People of the Book" (i.e. Jews/Christians/Zoroastrians). If they pay Jizya, then they will not be compelled to change their religion.

Real Islam: The very of "there is no compulsion in Religion" was later "abrogated" by the verse of sword (i.e. to kill the Idolaters wherever they are found).


Therefore, actual Islamic Ruling is to kill all Hindus, all Buddhists, all Atheists ...


The largest Islam Fatwa Website is "Islam Question Answers" which is run by the Saudi Mufties. Let us see what they say:

//

https://islamqa.info/en/34770

The scholars explained that these two verses (i.e. the verse of No Compulsion) and other similar verses, have to do (only) with those from whom the jizyah may be taken (i.e. People of Book), such as Jews, Christians and Magians. They are not to be forced (to convert to Islam), rather they are to be given the choice between becoming Muslim or paying the jizyah.

Other scholars said that this (i.e. No compulsion in the religion) was applied in the beginning, but was subsequently abrogated by Allaah’s command to fight and wage jihad. So whoever refuses to enter Islam should be fought when the Muslims are able to fight, until they either enter Islam forcefully or pay the jizyah if they are among the people who may pay jizyah (i.e. People of the Book).

While the kuffaar should be compelled to enter Islam if they are not people from the people of the Book, because that will lead to their happiness and salvation in this world and in the Hereafter.

Obliging a person to adhere to the truth in which is guidance and happiness is better for him than falsehood. Just as a person may be forced to do the duty that he owes to other people even if that is by means of imprisonment or beating, so forcing the kaafirs to believe in Allaah alone and enter into the religion of Islam is more important and more essential, because this will lead to their happiness in this world and in the Hereafter. This applies unless they are People of the Book, i.e., Jews and Christians, or Magians, because Islam says that these three groups may be given the choice: they may enter Islam or they may pay the jizyah and feel themselves subdued.

Some of the scholars are of the view that others may also be given the choice between Islam and jizyah, but the most correct view is that no others should be given this choice, rather these three groups are the only ones who may be given the choice, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fought the kuffaar in the Arabian Peninsula and he only accepted their becoming Muslim (otherwise he killed them). And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

He did not say, “if they pay the jizyah”. The Jews, Christians and Magians are to be asked to enter Islam; if they refuse then they should be asked to pay the jizyah. If they refuse to pay the jizyah then the Muslims must fight them if they are able to do so. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

[al-Tawbah 9:29]

//

When ummayads conquered sindh there was no Hanafi or Maliki ect yet they still took jizya from the idol worshippers.

 

[TM Riddle]

Sir, I don't know about the Indian government and Hindu Dharam, but for sure Islamic Sharia does not even allow the healthy criticism.

In pure Islamic society (times of Sahaba), idolaters had no right even to stay "alive". In 9th year, the final orders came under which all the kuffar should be compelled to convert to Islam, otherwise they had to be killed (see my 2nd last post above for references from Quran and Hadith).

Only "the people of Book" were allowed to pay the Jizya and to follow their religion, but in a subdued manner where they were not allowed to preach or to convert any Muslim towards any other religion.

My knowledge on that is rather limited so can't really comment.
But IMO a healthy criticism of religious beliefs is absolutely vital for a society to grow and progress. People should have right to question everything .

 

[Alam_dar]

My ancestors were hindus as people say but yes i am proud and feel the same as th Op say,not disrespecting hinduism.
and have no problem with them following there religion but feel happy for myself.

Sir, you are right but your 2nd Statement is wrong according to the rules of Islamic Sharia.

According to Islamic Sharia, if Muslims have the power, then they must attack the neighbouring Non Muslim countries, and then forcefully convert all the Idolaters into Muslims, and if they refuse, then they should be killed.

This rule of Sharia was practised during the times of Prophet and the Sahaba.

Only the People of the Book (i.e. Jews/Christians/Zoroastrians) were allowed to pay the Jizya and keep on practising their religion, but in a submissive way, in which they were not allowed to convert the Muslims towards Christianity etc.

 

[R3verse Swing]

If all these places have kept their original religion and culture, why would you need a Hindutva movement which has culminated in a political party winning power on the promise to reclaim the Hindu heritage of the nation? That doesn't really make sense does it?

Hammer to the head, to the nail, Captain.

Great point.

I wouldn't expect a response.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Like CC said a healthy criticism is fine but ridiculing and insulting to score cheap points is something which no progressive society would endorse.

The irony is that in a progressive society we are allowed to question etc.

To be honest, it only makes one stronger.

 

[DRsohail]

Sir, you are right but your 2nd Statement is wrong according to the rules of Islamic Sharia.

According to Islamic Sharia, if Muslims have the power, then they must attack the neighbouring Non Muslim countries, and then forcefully convert all the Idolaters into Muslims, and if they refuse, then they should be killed.

This rule of Sharia was practised during the times of Prophet and the Sahaba.

Only the People of the Book (i.e. Jews/Christians/Zoroastrians) were allowed to pay the Jizya and keep on practising their religion, but in a submissive way, in which they were not allowed to convert the Muslims towards Christianity etc.

That,s something i do not know .i have not heard that muslims are allowed to forcefully convert someone?

 

[Rayyman]

I think you contributed to his greatness in a very significant way.

I meant he is an ancestor of mine. sorry.

 

[TM Riddle]

The irony is that in a progressive society we are allowed to question etc.

To be honest, it only makes one stronger.

Nothing wrong with questioning . My point was regarding ridiculing just for the sake of it .

 

[IAJ]

Sura 109 (1-6):

Say: "Oh, you who disbelieve!
"I do not worship that which you worship,
"Nor do you worship That Which I worship.
"Nor will I worship that which you have been worshipping,
"Neither will you worship That Which I worship.
"To you your religion and to me mine»

 

[cricketjoshila]

I meant he is an ancestor of mine. sorry.

Bhai no response to my post on the context.

 

[Alam_dar]

When ummayads conquered sindh there was no Hanafi or Maliki ect yet they still took jizya from the idol worshippers.

Good question, but for sure Ummayads had little to do with the religion.

As compared to Ummayads, we have Quran which is asking for killing all the idolators,

As compared to Ummayads, we have Sahaba (Hadhrat Umar) who wanted to kill all the Majoos as he considered them kuffar, but then he allowed the Majoos to pay the Jizya while some Sahaba testified that Prophet counted Majoos among the People of the Book.

For example see this SAHIH Hadith from Sunnan Abu Dawud:

لم يكن عمر يأخذ الجزية من المجوس حتى شهد عبد الرحمن بن عوف أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أخذها من مجوس هجر .
Translation:
Umar didn't want to take Jizya from Majoos (but wanted to kill them), till the companion Abdul Rehman bin 'Auf told him that Prophet Muhammad indeed took Jizya from the Majoos of the area of Hajar.

This tradition has been authenticated by grand Mufti Imam Albani of Saudi Arabia:

http://dorar.net/h/0916f8e2ca3e8b9006f8ca7e4cf93e8c


Therefore, Quran and Ijma of Sahaba was to kill all the idolaters, and don't accept any Jizya from them, and they had only one way to save their life i.e. to accept Islam under compulsion.

 

[IAJ]

Bhai no response to my post on the context.

Do you in your eyes see it as a victory that your forefathers kept same religion for 3000 years, whereas those who converted to Islam were losers?

 

[troodon]

Here is just from my observation.

North Indian Muslims look mostly like Upper Caste Hindus. This shows mostly upper caste were converted in North India.

South Indian Muslims generally tend to look like Oppressed Class people like Dalits, Other Backward Castes, Dhobis etc.

To me, South Indian Muslims converted to escape Caste discrimination.
North Indian Muslims were either forced to convert or were given a ton of incentives by the Mughals and other Central Asian/Arab/Turk conquerors to accept Islam.

In North India you can see below..
There are Hindu Boras and Muslim Boras. Hindu Jats and Muslim Jats. Hindu Rajputs and Muslim Rajputs. Hindu Khatris and Muslim Khatris. Hindu Gujjars and Muslim Gujjars. Hindu Brahmins and Muslim Brahmins (**Cough** Syed **Cough**)......

In South India, you do not see any such thing. Most South Muslims cannot trace what caste their ancestors were. They completely left it generations ago. Most don't even want to talk about it. Barring a few Ashraf Muslims and their converted North Indian army, most South Muslims are sons of the southern soil.