Proud my ancestors converted

[cricketjoshila]

And I did give you the example of APJ Abdul Kalam. And BTW keep in mind that the BJP has been in power for barely 10% of the 70.5 yrs.




Is that why Pakistan has been ruled by the Military for decades ... ohh the cheek to say "checks and balances" )


Any chance you are going to answer my simple question ? Does Pakistan even officially allow minorities to become the PM/President of the country ?

I dont think you have the guts to answer that simple question because you know what that means. Your best options are to keep shifting the Goal posts lol

Many muslims have been Justices of SC in India and some have been CJIs. From the top of my head atleast 4 CJIs have been muslim.

 

[Tusker]

Dont really follow the thread

But yes I am proud that my ancestors converted to what I consider the right path.

Mughals and other Muslim empires ruled India for centuries and on multiple occassions. If they wanted they could have systematically reduced the population of Hindus through ethnic cleansing and expulsion over a considerable period of 500 years plus .

You need to understand how this "ruling" was actually done ... just because they were in power at Delhi doesnt mean that they had control of Entire Indian Subcontinent. The Maratha and Vijayanagara Empires are great examples. Even closer to Delhi they would enter into agreements with smaller kings in surrounding regions as long as they paid them or provided Military support. India was too big and too many Kings with enough fire power to over throw them all. they certainly did not have the resources to undertake such expeditions. But wherever they had complete control there was havoc wreaked.

 

[Tusker]

Waffle.

Post #210



Still no sign/axamples. Just cries of goal posts moving. It’s not the goal posts that are moving, it’s the Indian blood that is boiling.

I will not bother asking again, since the answer and desperation is clear.

Next!

So you dont agree that Kalam was appointed by BJP ? Is that what is told in Pakistan ?

 

[R3verse Swing]

So you dont agree that Kalam was appointed by BJP ? Is that what is told in Pakistan ?

Why are you wasting your time in responding? I requested examples in post #210. You are limping with an answer.

 

[Tusker]

Why are you wasting your time in responding? I requested examples in post #210. You are limping with an answer.

Which part of "BJP appointed Kalam" do you not understand ? Should I write that in Urdu right to left ?

 

[Robert]

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indians and Pakistanis fighting and a Brit enjoying.

Where have we seen this before?

 

[R3verse Swing]

Which part of "BJP appointed Kalam" do you not understand ? Should I write that in Urdu right to left ?

A. P. J. Abdul Kalam eh? He left office in 25 July 2007 under Manmohan Singh. He also happens to be dead!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam

Ha ha ha!

One more time - Appointed Muslim AFTER BJP were in power. I am writing in English, left to right.

Try again!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Compare brit pakistanis with brit indians. What is the problem? Cant compete?

I stated that your ancestors were converted to islam while my followed the same religion for 3000 years. None of that is untrue. Please prove otherwise.

Tell me which religion my ancestors followed 3000 years ago before you claim they were converted.

You're Indian not a Brit. Again I find it funny Indians with 1/3 of the worlds poor and over a billion people earning less than Pak Brits would want to bring up wealth of people. Again wealth of anyone has little t do with their ability for combat.

HOW DO YOU KNOW my anscestors were forced to convert? lol How do you know YOUR ansecestors weren't forced to convert? You dont even know youre own history, let alone mine.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Compare brit pakistanis with brit indians. What is the problem? Cant compete?

I stated that your ancestors were converted to islam while my followed the same religion for 3000 years. None of that is untrue. Please prove otherwise.

Tell me which religion my ancestors followed 3000 years ago before you claim they were converted.

I'll compare for you. Brit Pakistanis are quite open and prepared to share opinions on all matters which crop up, sport, world issues, politics, religion etc. British Indians tend to keep quiet, and very few of them will even discuss their life as Indians in the UK. This is quite a good indicator of the difference between the two communities in general I feel.

 

[Tusker]

A. P. J. Abdul Kalam eh? He left office in 25 July 2007 under Manmohan Singh. He also happens to be dead!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam

Ha ha ha!

One more time - Appointed Muslim AFTER BJP were in power. I am writing in English, left to right.

Try again!

See this is why you should stay away from these discussions. The way it works is you need to look at who appointed him and the start date .. not the end date lol. The name is right there in that link. Let me make it easier for you Manmohan Singh had nothing to do with Kalams Appointment.

But don't let that stop you from coming up with more comedy material

 

[R3verse Swing]

See this is why you should stay away from these discussions. The way it works is you need to look at who appointed him and the start date .. not the end date lol. The name is right there in that link. Let me make it easier for you Manmohan Singh had nothing to do with Kalams Appointment.

But don't let that stop you from coming up with more comedy material

Nice try, clearly you do not understand what AFTER means, also he was not appointed by the BJP for President, he had the support of the BJP.

The joke is on you, pal.

 

[Tusker]

Nice try, clearly you do not understand what AFTER means, also he was not appointed by the BJP for President, he had the support of the BJP.

The joke is on you, pal.

So Congress appointed Kalam when BJP was in power? Is that your understanding ? )

 

[R3verse Swing]

So Congress appointed Kalam when BJP was in power? Is that your understanding ? )

It pays to read. You cited Kalam in reference to his Presidential post. Did BJP appoint him President? No. Now go read the link. You cannot even understand simple English. Post 210 as reminder.

Comeback when you do your homework. If I were you, by now I would be Googling for other examples. No wait, there are none.

Just wondering whether Modi apologists can help Tusker here. Hehehe.

 

[troodon]

What is this Proud of ancestors because they converted?

99% inherit religion because they are born into it. These same guys defend religion to death if someone says anything about their religion.

If you are proud of your converted ancestor, then you are not proud of the forefathers and mothers of that converted ancestor. Totally silly.

Its not like when Arabs and Turks showed up in India, we had no culture and civilized cities. They were more motivated and hungry for the riches of Subcontinent. We let several of those conquerors plunder us, kill us and rule us.

I have no respect for any blood thirsty conquerors who attack other kingdoms out of greed or to spread religion or to enslave locals.

Its not like we invited those 7th century Arabs/Turks and Central Asians to come and kill/plunder us. No need to glorify shameful part of the history.

This is like 27th century Afghans trying to glorify US invasion of Afghanistan. Countries, kingdoms need to mind their own business.

 

[Tusker]

It pays to read. You cited Kalam in reference to his Presidential post. Did BJP appoint him President? No.

So who appointed Kalam according to you? Google tells me it was not Manmohan or Congress ... But Google can be wrong you know .... so who was it ?

 

[KingKhanWC]

What is this Proud of ancestors because they converted?

99% inherit religion because they are born into it. These same guys defend religion to death if someone says anything about their religion.

If you are proud of your converted ancestor, then you are not proud of the forefathers and mothers of that converted ancestor. Totally silly.

Its not like when Arabs and Turks showed up in India, we had no culture and civilized cities. They were more motivated and hungry for the riches of Subcontinent. We let several of those conquerors plunder us, kill us and rule us.

I have no respect for any blood thirsty conquerors who attack other kingdoms out of greed or to spread religion or to enslave locals.

Its not like we invited those 7th century Arabs/Turks and Central Asians to come and kill/plunder us. No need to glorify shameful part of the history.

This is like 27th century Afghans trying to glorify US invasion of Afghanistan. Countries, kingdoms need to mind their own business.

Dont be ashamed, the Muslims who ruled gave India many great things. Indians clearly aren't ashamed as they would remove all traces of Muslim rule now Hindtuva extremists are in power.

I defend my religion on here because I find the critics to be lacking basic understanding of it and I dont enjoy coming on a forum which is dominated by Pakistani Muslims to see hate against my religon from the idotic posters on here.

There is no need to apologise or sugarcoat, If my ansecestors worhsipped idols, I have no respect for love for them. Its something Islam is totally against, so there is no need for any Muslim to apologise for feeling this way.

 

[R3verse Swing]

So who appointed Kalam according to you? Google tells me it was not Manmohan or Congress ... But Google can be wrong you know .... so who was it ?

Duh!

Must I soon feed you everything? President is not appointed in India. Also read my post carefully, I said he Kalam was President under Manmohan Singh, nowhere did I state Singh appointed Kalam.

Anyway, here goes . . .

The President of India is a formal head of the state of India and the Prime Minister and the Council of Ministers. The President enjoys legislative, executive, judiciary and emergency powers. He is not appointed by anyone, rather he is elected indirectly.

Election process

Whenever the office becomes vacant, the new President is chosen by an electoral college consisting of the elected members of both houses of Parliament (M.P.s), the elected members of the State Legislative Assemblies(Vidhan Sabha) of all States and the elected members of the legislative assemblies (M.L.A.s) of two Union Territories (i.e., National Capital Territory (NCT) of Delhi and Union Territory of Puducherry). The election process of President is more extensive process than Prime Minister who is also elected indirectly (not elected by people directly) by the Lok Sabha members only. Whereas President being constitutional head with duties to protect, defend and preserve the constitution and rule of law in a constitutional democracy with constitutional supremacy, is elected in an extensive manner by the members of Lok Sabha, Rajya Sabha and state legislative assemblies in a secret ballot procedure.

All in the link I cited above. In English, left to right.

The above is all irrelevant anyway, because here is what I had asked you initially:

I wonder how many Muslims were appointed prominent/chief/law making/military positions in GOI since BJP were in power.

You are an embarrassment to Modi, and that's saying something. Don't even understand the political structure/process of your own country.

Ouch!

 

[troodon]

Dont be ashamed, the Muslims who ruled gave India many great things. Indians clearly aren't ashamed as they would remove all traces of Muslim rule now Hindtuva extremists are in power.

I defend my religion on here because I find the critics to be lacking basic understanding of it and I dont enjoy coming on a forum which is dominated by Pakistani Muslims to see hate against my religon from the idotic posters on here.

There is no need to apologise or sugarcoat, If my ansecestors worhsipped idols, I have no respect for love for them. Its something Islam is totally against, so there is no need for any Muslim to apologise for feeling this way.

Aaan!!
Please man!
If Americans give technology to Afghans, bring democracy there and spread Christianity there, should the future Afghans be proud of what Americans did?

This is same as South/Central American Native Indians being proud of what Spanish did. After Spanish brought civilization, Christianity and ended tribal worshiping. Who cares how many thousands the Spanish butchered in their conquest.

What is wrong with idol worshiping? As if it is a sin. What difference does it make whether you worship a cow or Goat or a tree or a stone or an invisible Sky God?

 

[R3verse Swing]

Dont be ashamed, the Muslims who ruled gave India many great things. Indians clearly aren't ashamed as they would remove all traces of Muslim rule now Hindtuva extremists are in power.

I defend my religion on here because I find the critics to be lacking basic understanding of it and I dont enjoy coming on a forum which is dominated by Pakistani Muslims to see hate against my religon from the idotic posters on here.

There is no need to apologise or sugarcoat, If my ansecestors worhsipped idols, I have no respect for love for them. Its something Islam is totally against, so there is no need for any Muslim to apologise for feeling this way.

I would add further to bold emphasis by saying Islam contributed so much more to the world, including the Western world today. Example, Islam pulled Europe out of the dark ages.

 

[Tusker]

Duh!

Must I soon feed you everything? President is not appointed in India. Also read my post carefully, I said he Kalam was President under Manmohan Singh, nowhere did I state Singh appointed Kalam.

Anyway, here goes . . .



All in the link I cited above. In English, left to right.

The above is all irrelevant anyway, because here is what I had asked you initially:



You are an embarrassment to Modi, and that's saying something. Don't even understand the political structure/process of your own country.

Ouch!

So BJP had no say at all in him becoming President?

 

[R3verse Swing]

So BJP had no say at all in him becoming President?

BJP did not appoint him, that was your claim. Don't change the subject.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Aaan!!
Please man!
If Americans give technology to Afghans, bring democracy there and spread Christianity there, should the future Afghans be proud of what Americans did?

This is same as South/Central American Native Indians being proud of what Spanish did. After Spanish brought civilization, Christianity and ended tribal worshiping. Who cares how many thousands the Spanish butchered in their conquest.

What is wrong with idol worshiping? As if it is a sin. What difference does it make whether you worship a cow or Goat or a tree or a stone or an invisible Sky God?

Yes if those are happy with what they inherited. Everyone has killed, Hindu rulers were killing their own, dont forget this and the caste system.

God has certain charatercistics. None of these are living beings or stones. For Muslims to worship something which can be hurt, broken, feel pain etc is going against the charactericis of the Almighty, we would be reducting him to part of Creation when he's the Creator.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I would add further to bold emphasis by saying Islam contributed so much more to the world, including the Western world today. Example, Islam pulled Europe out of the dark ages.

The European rennainsance was built on the back of knowledge taken from Al-Andalusia. Columbus wasn't the first to 'discover' America, Muslims and some say even the Chinese got there much before him. Europeans have distorted history in thier favour and so have the Indians who cant accept the fact Islam bought better things for their people.

 

[Tusker]

BJP did not appoint him, that was your claim. Don't change the subject.

So who nominated him without BJPs approval?

 

[troodon]

Yes if those are happy with what they inherited. Everyone has killed, Hindu rulers were killing their own, dont forget this and the caste system.

God has certain charatercistics. None of these are living beings or stones. For Muslims to worship something which can be hurt, broken, feel pain etc is going against the charactericis of the Almighty, we would be reducting him to part of Creation when he's the Creator.

Every society has good and bad. That does not give Foreign conquerors a right to attack these societies, kill, plunder, enslave and give these societies their own culture.

If this is the case, what Europeans did to native Americans of North America is justified. After all, the Amerindian tribes were constantly fighting each other and eliminating each other. The white man came, gave them Christianity and in the process made the US and Canada the best among the world. Who cares how many Amerindians have died.

What Almighty is, what his/her attributes are is subjective to each culture. Nobody has any proof that their book or messiah is the true one.
Hindus do not consider an idol as God. Hindus consider the idol as an image of God which they can concentrate and meditate upon.

 

[R3verse Swing]

The European rennainsance was built on the back of knowledge taken from Al-Andalusia. Columbus wasn't the first to 'discover' America, Muslims and some say even the Chinese got there much before him. Europeans have distorted history in thier favour and so have the Indians who cant accept the fact Islam bought better things for their people.

Yup. Spot on.

Even today people tend to forget that Islam's contribution is prevalent in Lexicons worldwide.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Every society has good and bad. That does not give Foreign conquerors a right to attack these societies, kill, plunder, enslave and give these societies their own culture.

If this is the case, what Europeans did to native Americans of North America is justified. After all, the Amerindian tribes were constantly fighting each other and eliminating each other. The white man came, gave them Christianity and in the process made the US and Canada the best among the world. Who cares how many Amerindians have died.

What Almighty is, what his/her attributes are is subjective to each culture. Nobody has any proof that their book or messiah is the true one.
Hindus do not consider an idol as God. Hindus consider the idol as an image of God which they can concentrate and meditate upon.

You are comparing societies with civilisations. False comparison.

Also, conquest is a human trait, not a religious one.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Every society has good and bad. That does not give Foreign conquerors a right to attack these societies, kill, plunder, enslave and give these societies their own culture.

If this is the case, what Europeans did to native Americans of North America is justified. After all, the Amerindian tribes were constantly fighting each other and eliminating each other. The white man came, gave them Christianity and in the process made the US and Canada the best among the world. Who cares how many Amerindians have died.

What Almighty is, what his/her attributes are is subjective to each culture. Nobody has any proof that their book or messiah is the true one.
Hindus do not consider an idol as God. Hindus consider the idol as an image of God which they can concentrate and meditate upon.

Not all Empires applied the same ethics or were all seen as invaders. So many would not convert but resist.

Since when I have asked you to accept or believe what I do? It's what I believe which matters not what others think.

 

[Tusker]

So who nominated him without BJPs approval?

Ahhh the silence ....

 

[JaDed]

What is this Proud of ancestors because they converted?

99% inherit religion because they are born into it. These same guys defend religion to death if someone says anything about their religion.

If you are proud of your converted ancestor, then you are not proud of the forefathers and mothers of that converted ancestor. Totally silly.

Its not like when Arabs and Turks showed up in India, we had no culture and civilized cities. They were more motivated and hungry for the riches of Subcontinent. We let several of those conquerors plunder us, kill us and rule us.

I have no respect for any blood thirsty conquerors who attack other kingdoms out of greed or to spread religion or to enslave locals.

Its not like we invited those 7th century Arabs/Turks and Central Asians to come and kill/plunder us. No need to glorify shameful part of the history.

This is like 27th century Afghans trying to glorify US invasion of Afghanistan. Countries, kingdoms need to mind their own business.

Very true, but it does happen around the world.

 

[Tusker]

What is this Proud of ancestors because they converted?

99% inherit religion because they are born into it. These same guys defend religion to death if someone says anything about their religion.

If you are proud of your converted ancestor, then you are not proud of the forefathers and mothers of that converted ancestor. Totally silly.

Its not like when Arabs and Turks showed up in India, we had no culture and civilized cities. They were more motivated and hungry for the riches of Subcontinent. We let several of those conquerors plunder us, kill us and rule us.

I have no respect for any blood thirsty conquerors who attack other kingdoms out of greed or to spread religion or to enslave locals.

Its not like we invited those 7th century Arabs/Turks and Central Asians to come and kill/plunder us. No need to glorify shameful part of the history.

This is like 27th century Afghans trying to glorify US invasion of Afghanistan. Countries, kingdoms need to mind their own business.

Well said.

 

[pillionrider]

Islam pulled Europe out of the dark ages.

Oh. How did they do that?

And why do many modern Europeans think Islam wants to take Europe back into the dark ages.

The European rennainsance was built on the back of knowledge taken from Al-Andalusia. Columbus wasn't the first to 'discover' America, Muslims and some say even the Chinese got there much before him. Europeans have distorted history in thier favour and so have the Indians who cant accept the fact Islam bought better things for their people.

Yup. Spot on.

Even today people tend to forget that Islam's contribution is prevalent in Lexicons worldwide.

The Arabs you're talking about used existing Greek (mostly) and (some) Indian advancements in science as a base.

They improved, advanced and innovated on some of them. That is definitely true. However, they did so, not for the advancement of science or the human species but for religious reasons. To help with finding the direction to Mecca, for example.

The scientific achievements of the Arabs is the triumph of a race rather than a religion. They just happened to be Muslim at the time. I think it was Tyson, the astronomer who once pointed out that, if religion hadn't hindered scientific processes in the Arab region, they would probably have overtaken the Jews in terms of Nobel Laureates.

Christian monks contributed heavily to modern scientific progress. But we would all laugh at anyone who twisted this to say Christianity contributed to Science. Same goes for Indian contributions (mostly millennia ago) being referred to as Hindu contributions.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Oh. How did they do that?

And why do many modern Europeans think Islam wants to take Europe back into the dark ages.

If you want a comprehensive answer on Islam and European dark age, probably better to make a separate thread, it's probably a subject in itself.

 

[TM Riddle]

Arabs did help Europe usher in Renaissance but they heavily drew upon existing Indian ideas . Still it won't be fair to totally discredit them. They did their job quite well.

 

[TM Riddle]

Wait , why have we suddenly started discussing Arab achievements in science and art? Have KKWC finally claimed middle eastern ancestry in order to distance himself from kufar of subcontinent? Nice move boi

 

[Romali_rotti]

So even IF my ancestors were forced to convert, I'm so glad there were. I have no sadness or regret over this all, I am very happy it happened.

Awwww that's so cute you are glad your ancestors may have been forced to convert. You have no regrets of course because you weren't going through the hell, anxiety, sadness and anger that your ancestors may have felt.

There is nothing wrong with you being happy with who you are currently, however one thing I find funny is you muslims showing so much love for the Arabs, you do realize they look down on muslims from the sub continent pretty terribly, especially those darker skinned Indian, Pakistani and Bangla muslim crowd... Moral of the story is be happy with who you are but don't try to appease to a crowd that thinks lowly of you and that feels you are not on their same level..


That is all....

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Awwww that's so cute you are glad your ancestors may have been forced to convert. You have no regrets of course because you weren't going through the hell, anxiety, sadness and anger that your ancestors may have felt.

There is nothing wrong with you being happy with who you are currently, however one thing I find funny is you muslims showing so much love for the Arabs, you do realize they look down on muslims from the sub continent pretty terribly, especially those darker skinned Indian, Pakistani and Bangla muslim crowd... Moral of the story is be happy with who you are but don't try to appease to a crowd that thinks lowly of you and that feels you are not on their same level..


That is all....

It is true that there are racist Arabs just as there are racist Indians and Pakistanis, but one of the great social factors of Islam is that racism is obliterated by those that follow it sincerely.

 

[Varun]

It is true that there are racist Arabs just as there are racist Indians and Pakistanis, but one of the great social factors of Islam is that racism is obliterated by those that follow it sincerely.

Arab Muslims look down upon sub-continental and African Muslims. Whether they follow Islam sincerely is irrelevant, but they have done well for themselves and their citizens regardless. It is upto sub-continental Muslims to recognize the ground reality and stop regarding the Arabs as a superior species.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Arab Muslims look down upon sub-continental and African Muslims. Whether they follow Islam sincerely is irrelevant, but they have done well for themselves and their citizens regardless. It is upto sub-continental Muslims to recognize the ground reality and stop regarding the Arabs as a superior species.

No Muslim can regard anyone as a superior race, black, white, yellow or brown, this is only a view put forward by Hindutvas usually, and their reasons are self-evident. Racial equality is there in the scriptures, and it's one of the reasons why Islam spread to all corners of the earth, with so many Muslims of different hues.

That's not to say there aren't racist Arabs, as I have already acknowledged, but that is usually those who stray from the path of religion. In fact I don't know of any religion which espouses racism, although I admit I don't know that much about Hinduism caste system or Judaism.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Arab Muslims look down upon sub-continental and African Muslims. Whether they follow Islam sincerely is irrelevant, but they have done well for themselves and their citizens regardless. It is upto sub-continental Muslims to recognize the ground reality and stop regarding the Arabs as a superior species.

If Modi was more like Ghandi I’m sure sub continental Muslims would feel more of a affinity to the country of Qutb and Shah Jan
Under the Mughal empire , India were second to none in their gdp

But Modi himself goes to Dubai and Ramallah, which shows he thinks they’re superior too

 

[Varun]

No Muslim can regard anyone as a superior race, black, white, yellow or brown, this is only a view put forward by Hindutvas usually, and their reasons are self-evident. Racial equality is there in the scriptures, and it's one of the reasons why Islam spread to all corners of the earth, with so many Muslims of different hues.

That's not to say there aren't racist Arabs, as I have already acknowledged, but that is usually those who stray from the path of religion. In fact I don't know of any religion which espouses racism, although I admit I don't know that much about Hinduism caste system or Judaism.

You're repeating the idealistic scenarios you've read in a book, I'm speaking of the situation on the ground. To make it understandable for you, 99% Arabs have 'strayed from the book' and ill-treat Muslims from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other nations such as Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, and to a lesser extent, Egypt and the like. There is little reason for sub-continental Muslims to put them on a pedestal in any case, ideally both parties have little to do with each other besides the guest workers residing in those countries.

If Modi was more like Ghandi I’m sure sub continental Muslims would feel more of a affinity to the country of Qutb and Shah Jan
Under the Mughal empire , India were second to none in their gdp

But Modi himself goes to Dubai and Ramallah, which shows he thinks they’re superior too

Good lord. Modi came to power three short years ago, and 25 years from now will probably be a Wikipedia entry while four or five other PMs would have ruled over India. Sub-continental Muslims' reverance of Arab Muslims has little to do with this, they've been regarding Arab Muslims as superior Muslims for decades, spanning the time when the likes of Saudi Arabia have been channeling funds for some creative pursuits in these countries. Other reasons I can think of are:

1. The holy cities of Mecca and Madinah are in the Arab world. Proximity = greater respect to Arabs.

2. The Holy Quran is in Arabic. Arabs speak arabic = better than 'us'.

3. Being increasingly focused upon as a minority here in India and other parts of the world, they need an identity. Sticking to the Arabs and showing faith to Palestine-like causes gives them such identity.

And other such plastic reasons.

 

[Romali_rotti]

No Muslim can regard anyone as a superior race, black, white, yellow or brown, this is only a view put forward by Hindutvas usually, and their reasons are self-evident. .

lol, I wonder how many Pakistani & Indian muslims will allow their daughter to marry a black African muslim ... Dont get me started on the Arabs, spent so much time with them to know how poorly they look down the people from the sub continent. A lot of those dark skinned Muslims from Kerala who went to fight in Syria were told to clean toilets, be sex slaves etc instead of actually taking part in the fight because of their skin tone.... No matter how hard you muslims from the sub continent try to appease the arab muslims you still wont be good enough for them..

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You're repeating the idealistic scenarios you've read in a book, I'm speaking of the situation on the ground. To make it understandable for you, 99% Arabs have 'strayed from the book' and ill-treat Muslims from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other nations such as Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, and to a lesser extent, Egypt and the like. There is little reason for sub-continental Muslims to put them on a pedestal in any case, ideally both parties have little to do with each other besides the guest workers residing in those countries.

Since you are talking about there being little reason for sub-continental Muslims putting Arabs on a pedestal, I feel it is only right to point out that those who go to the middle east to work are usually lower class manual labourers who are probably treated like dirt at home in their own countries. Please refer to the many threads on PP where these issues are constantly raised.

My view is that subcontinental Muslims are probably more at ease with their religion as they know that racism is denounced in Islam. I'm not sure that is the case with Hinduism with the entrenched caste system or Judaism.

 

[Varun]

Since you are talking about there being little reason for sub-continental Muslims putting Arabs on a pedestal, I feel it is only right to point out that those who go to the middle east to work are usually lower class manual labourers who are probably treated like dirt at home in their own countries. Please refer to the many threads on PP where these issues are constantly raised.

My view is that subcontinental Muslims are probably more at ease with their religion as they know that racism is denounced in Islam. I'm not sure that is the case with Hinduism with the entrenched caste system or Judaism.

The guest workers' treatment in Arab states is only one symptom of the problem, and these are not the only ones who give the Arabs an imaginary higher stature: all their compatriots back home also do so, rich or poor.

They cannot be at ease with their religion and it is no coincidence that they value Palestine more than Xinjiang, and Yemen more than Afghanistan. They would be at ease if they were to remain in their moderate, historically entrenched Sufi strain of the religion rather than get involved in the meddling between 'powers' that were artificially set up in the last 50 years.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

You're repeating the idealistic scenarios you've read in a book, I'm speaking of the situation on the ground. To make it understandable for you, 99% Arabs have 'strayed from the book' and ill-treat Muslims from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other nations such as Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, and to a lesser extent, Egypt and the like. There is little reason for sub-continental Muslims to put them on a pedestal in any case, ideally both parties have little to do with each other besides the guest workers residing in those countries.



Good lord. Modi came to power three short years ago, and 25 years from now will probably be a Wikipedia entry while four or five other PMs would have ruled over India. Sub-continental Muslims' reverance of Arab Muslims has little to do with this, they've been regarding Arab Muslims as superior Muslims for decades, spanning the time when the likes of Saudi Arabia have been channeling funds for some creative pursuits in these countries. Other reasons I can think of are:

1. The holy cities of Mecca and Madinah are in the Arab world. Proximity = greater respect to Arabs.

2. The Holy Quran is in Arabic. Arabs speak arabic = better than 'us'.

3. Being increasingly focused upon as a minority here in India and other parts of the world, they need an identity. Sticking to the Arabs and showing faith to Palestine-like causes gives them such identity.

And other such plastic reasons.

I agree with you
India has a rich Muslim heritages which Muslims should embrace more instead of trying to set up little enclaves and giving bayah to Wahhabism and Al qaeda and becoming their outside princes and princesses

 

[shaz619]

People have so much free time

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The guest workers' treatment in Arab states is only one symptom of the problem, and these are not the only ones who give the Arabs an imaginary higher stature: all their compatriots back home also do so, rich or poor.

They cannot be at ease with their religion and it is no coincidence that they value Palestine more than Xinjiang, and Yemen more than Afghanistan. They would be at ease if they were to remain in their moderate, historically entrenched Sufi strain of the religion rather than get involved in the meddling between 'powers' that were artificially set up in the last 50 years.

I agree, it would be better to stop looking for bad examples of racist Arabs, Indians or Pakistanis, and concentrate on the real message of religion instead. Glad you agree with me after all.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I should add of course, that I am not religious so if India wants to develop warmer ties with brotherly neighbour Pakistan rather than cosy up to Israel, that would be fine by me.

 

[Varun]

I should add of course, that I am not religious so if India wants to develop warmer ties with brotherly neighbour Pakistan rather than cosy up to Israel, that would be fine by me.

India has relations with both Israel and Palestine, and as with all diplomatic relations worldwide these have fluctuated through the course of time. The current Prime Minister has visited both countries in the last year. Likewise, Netanyahu and M Abbas have also visited India in the last few months.

Many aspects of India - Pakistan relations have little to do with India - Israel or India - Palestine relations, or for that matter, with Pakistan - Saudi relations.

 

[Gilly]

I should add of course, that I am not religious so if India wants to develop warmer ties with brotherly neighbour Pakistan rather than cosy up to Israel, that would be fine by me.

Would someone who follows Islam sincerely accept warmer ties with Israel?.

 

[shaz619]

What's the score so far lads, who's winning and taking full control of Kashmir? India or Pakistan? some very spicy posts from both sides thus far

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Would someone who follows Islam sincerely accept warmer ties with Israel?.

No idea, I suspect some will and some won't, and vice versa for sincere Jewish folk.

 

[Slog]

Would someone who follows Islam sincerely accept warmer ties with Israel?.

Israel issue is not a religious issue. It's a humanitarian issue based on land mass.

So not sure what's the premise of the question even

 

[R3verse Swing]

Israel issue is not a religious issue. It's a humanitarian issue based on land mass.

So not sure what's the premise of the question even

Beautifully put.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Beautifully put.

Israel is also a religious issue. Al Aqsa and Jerusalem are not just land/property disputes. I would say religion of Jews and Muslims is the central theme in the conflict.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Israel is also a religious issue. Al Aqsa and Jerusalem are not just land/property disputes. I would say religion of Jews and Muslims is the central theme in the conflict.

I wouldn't say you are not wrong because I know you are wrong.

Go read the Torah. Jews were banished from the promised land, never to return until the Messiah returns [Jesus]. This is why Jews were spread across Europe for over 2000 years. Guess what, Israel is not mentioned in the Torah. Surprised? You should be.

When you are done with the Torah, read the Balfour Declaration, and if you have time after that, the Benjamin H. Freedman's 1961 speech at the Willard Hotel - available as Transcript and Video.

Israel is a political movement, not a religious one. There is no religious issue. Orthodox Jews support not only Islam (and vice versa), but oppose the Zionist movement that is Israel.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I wouldn't say you are not wrong because I know you are wrong.

Go read the Torah. Jews were banished from the promised land, never to return until the Messiah returns [Jesus]. This is why Jews were spread across Europe for over 2000 years. Guess what, Israel is not mentioned in the Torah. Surprised? You should be.

When you are done with the Torah, read the Balfour Declaration, and if you have time after that, the Benjamin H. Freedman's 1961 speech at the Willard Hotel - available as Transcript and Video.

Israel is a political movement, not a religious one. There is no religious issue. Orthodox Jews support not only Islam (and vice versa), but oppose the Zionist movement that is Israel.

politics and religion are not mutex. but fine if you believe that religion is not central to the conflict. not going to change the truth.

 

[R3verse Swing]

politics and religion are not mutex. but fine if you believe that religion is not central to the conflict. not going to change the truth.

Religion is not central to the conflict, it never was. Your ignorance will never change the truth.

Please go back to defending Modi and India.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Religion is not central to the conflict, it never was. Your ignorance will never change the truth.

Please go back to defending Modi and India.

You are half right. It wasn't central. But it is central now. Have you ever been to Israel? I have.

 

[srh]

I am grateful too that my ancestors revert to Islam. If they had not reverted to Islam then I Insha Allah would have reverted to Islam. I just cannot vision in creating idols myself or by other humans and then believing that those idols actually created me and other humans.

 

[R3verse Swing]

You are half right. It wasn't central. But it is central now. Have you ever been to Israel? I have.

Have you read the Torah? No.

Have you read the Balfour declaration? No.

Have you read Benjamin H. Freedman's speech? No.

I do not need to go to Israel, any more than you need to visit Pakistan to get an idea why the nation was created.

 

[DeadBall]

I am proud my ancestors lived long enough to give birth to their offspring, otherwise I would not be here.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Have you read the Torah? No.

Have you read the Balfour declaration? No.

Have you read Benjamin H. Freedman's speech? No.

I do not need to go to Israel, any more than you need to visit Pakistan to get an idea why the nation was created.

Yes, hamas is a secular organization and zionism is irreligious movement.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Yes, hamas is a secular organization and zionism is irreligious movement.

Hamas did not exist decades until after Israel. Go do your homework.

Your hatred of Islam, Muslims, and Pakistan is evident. So much so it has clouded your feeble quest for knowledge and truth.

Enjoy Israel!

 

[CricketCartoons]

Hamas did not exist decades until after Israel. Go do your homework.

Your hatred of Islam, Muslims, and Pakistan is evident. So much so it has clouded your feeble quest for knowledge and truth.

Enjoy Israel!

That is why I said religion was not central in the past, but is now. Read carefully.

Don't know how highlighting the religious basis of the conflict can help you come to that conclusion, but I will neither accept nor deny your accusations.

 

[R3verse Swing]

That is why I said religion was not central in the past, but is now. Read carefully.

Don't know how highlighting the religious basis of the conflict can help you come to that conclusion, but I will neither accept nor deny your accusations.

Now you say religion is not central? Back-pedlar.

I detect Stockholm syndrome. You support Israel at any cause because they are bullies!

Bless.

 

[R3verse Swing]

politics and religion are not mutex. but fine if you believe that religion is not central to the conflict. not going to change the truth.

Few moments later

That is why I said religion was not central in the past, but is now. Read carefully.

The only person that's needs to read, is CricketCartoon himself.

Undermining himself. A typical Modi apologist trait.

 

[Varun]

I am grateful too that my ancestors revert to Islam. If they had not reverted to Islam then I Insha Allah would have reverted to Islam. I just cannot vision in creating idols myself or by other humans and then believing that those idols actually created me and other humans.

Good for you, but Islam requires a lot of hardwork. It seems to me there are so many rules and regulations to follow, dawn through dusk. You have to second guess yourself every step of the way, like many of the threads that sprout here from time to time: Is this haram? Is that halal? Do I have to pray at that 4 AM time slot also? Should I really fast for a whole month?

None of that with the idols! If I want to step out for a vodka, I can. If I want to stop eating altogether, I can. If I want to avoid temples all year long, I can. If I want to...you get the picture.

But to each their own.

 

[English August]

I'll compare for you. Brit Pakistanis are quite open and prepared to share opinions on all matters which crop up, sport, world issues, politics, religion etc. British Indians tend to keep quiet, and very few of them will even discuss their life as Indians in the UK. This is quite a good indicator of the difference between the two communities in general I feel.

Agreed. This explains why Indian restaurants in the UK are called Indian restaurants. And Pakistani restaurants are also called Indian restaurants. And Bangladeshi restaurants too are called Indian restaurants.

This conclusively proves that Indians are embarrassed about their Indian heritage but Pakistanis are super proud of their Pakistani heritage.

Well played!

 

[CricketCartoons]

Few moments later



The only person that's needs to read, is CricketCartoon himself.

Undermining himself. A typical Modi apologist trait.

Do you need my help in understanding the difference between IS and WAS?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Agreed. This explains why Indian restaurants in the UK are called Indian restaurants. And Pakistani restaurants are also called Indian restaurants. And Bangladeshi restaurants too are called Indian restaurants.

This conclusively proves that Indians are embarrassed about their Indian heritage but Pakistanis are super proud of their Pakistani heritage.

Well played!

Maybe you don't understand how sales pitch works. When you are selling to a customer you have to give them what they want. A diner at an Indian restaurant expects service, and to be waited on hand and foot. For them it is the recreation of the days of the British Raj where Indian servants scurried to fulfil every whim of the Lordly Brits. They don't want to go to a restaurant to be met by uppity desis who think too much of themselves as might be the case with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

Thus it makes perfect sense for Pakistanis to offer the British people an experience which fits their perceptions, otherwise why go into business in the first place?

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

I think PK compliments this thread very nicely. Alot of the ideas presented here by posters have been smartly explored in it.

 

[pillionrider]

Maybe you don't understand how sales pitch works. When you are selling to a customer you have to give them what they want. A diner at an Indian restaurant expects service, and to be waited on hand and foot. For them it is the recreation of the days of the British Raj where Indian servants scurried to fulfil every whim of the Lordly Brits. They don't want to go to a restaurant to be met by uppity desis who think too much of themselves as might be the case with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

Thus it makes perfect sense for Pakistanis to offer the British people an experience which fits their perceptions, otherwise why go into business in the first place?

So you're saying: Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are normally very proud and self-respecting people. Except when it comes to earning some money and running a business. At that point, they shed all of these lofty principles and prostrate before the diner.

Congrats on taking pride in this.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So you're saying: Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are normally very proud and self-respecting people. Except when it comes to earning some money and running a business. At that point, they shed all of these lofty principles and prostrate before the diner.

Congrats on taking pride in this.

What has pride got to do with it? Business is about providing a service, and you have to give the customer what they want. If the British public prefer to be served by Indians, then it would be pretty stupid to call a restaurant anything else which would confuse that image.

 

[pillionrider]

What has pride got to do with it? Business is about providing a service, and you have to give the customer what they want. If the British public prefer to be served by Indians, then it would be pretty stupid to call a restaurant anything else which would confuse that image.

Alright, so the first time the diner walks in, he does so having been deliberately confused by the proud Pakistani who probably sniggers to himself in the kitchen at the delightful con job he pulled.

But what happens next. According to you, his pride and lack of servility will be evident and the diner will therefore not return because he came there expecting the opposite.

All Indian-named Pakistani restaurants should therefore have shut shop within a few weeks. This is evidently not the case.

So after sniggering in the kitchen our Pakistani hero obviously has done something to convince the patron he is Indian.

Using your words, he must have been servile.

Once again, congrats on taking pride in this and a second Hearty Congrats for it not even occurring to you

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Alright, so the first time the diner walks in, he does so having been deliberately confused by the proud Pakistani who probably sniggers to himself in the kitchen at the delightful con job he pulled.

But what happens next. According to you, his pride and lack of servility will be evident and the diner will therefore not return because he came there expecting the opposite.

All Indian-named Pakistani restaurants should therefore have shut shop within a few weeks. This is evidently not the case.

So after sniggering in the kitchen our Pakistani hero obviously has done something to convince the patron he is Indian.

Using your words, he must have been servile.

Once again, congrats on taking pride in this and a second Hearty Congrats for it not even occurring to you

I don't know why you are failing to grasp a simple explanation and why you are drawing elaborate pictures of whatever is going on in your head.

Who said service is a bad thing? The Pakistani and Bangladeshi owners are merely recognising that British diners associate good service with Indians and so the restaurant owners are obviously going to sell them the dream. Isn't that what all good business is at the end of the day?

How do you think McDonalds sells the McAloo Tikki in India? Do you think they are sniggering behind the customers back about how these veggies can't eat a proper Big Mac? Grow up.

 

[pillionrider]

I don't know why you are failing to grasp a simple explanation and why you are drawing elaborate pictures of whatever is going on in your head.

Who said service is a bad thing? The Pakistani and Bangladeshi owners are merely recognising that British diners associate good service with Indians and so the restaurant owners are obviously going to sell them the dream. Isn't that what all good business is at the end of the day?

How do you think McDonalds sells the McAloo Tikki in India? Do you think they are sniggering behind the customers back about how these veggies can't eat a proper Big Mac? Grow up.

The fact that you've now started running around in circles suggests you have finally grasped the embarrassing reality of proud Pakistani/Bangladeshi restaurateurs.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The fact that you've now started running around in circles suggests you have finally grasped the embarrassing reality of proud Pakistani/Bangladeshi restaurateurs.

If you call giving a patient and detailed explanation of the answer you requested running round in circles, then it's pointless going further. Let's just hurl general criticisms instead. You are clearly hurt by the reality and are striking out in response. Better?

 

[troodon]

Agreed. This explains why Indian restaurants in the UK are called Indian restaurants. And Pakistani restaurants are also called Indian restaurants. And Bangladeshi restaurants too are called Indian restaurants.

This conclusively proves that Indians are embarrassed about their Indian heritage but Pakistanis are super proud of their Pakistani heritage.

Well played!

Pak grocery stores are called indo-Pak grocery stores in US. They are never called Pakistani grocery stores.