"Putting in a fight" should not be a standard. Only winning counts.

[Madplayer]

When Pakistan displayed dogged resistance and scored 450 in the 1st test against Australia in December of 2016, the record threatening chase provided relief to the Pakistani fans despite the eventual loss. However, the antics that followed defined everything that is wrong with the Pakistani mindset. A pompous cake cutting ceremony to celebrate the resilient knock of Asad shafiq when defeat was stamped on the players' foreheads was unbecoming of a team that boasts about a glorious legacy.

Time and time again we have seen Pakistani team management and fans go gaga over moral victories after clear defeats. This very attitude is the problem and makes defeat acceptable. Defeat is never acceptable. There is always shame in defeat and it is high time that Pakistanis start feeling that way.

The statement that "defeat doesn't feel so bad when you put in a fight" is acceptable only when you are in a habit of winning. When you know that you win more often than not, a defeat once in a while when you give it your everything doesn't taste as bitter as it normally would. The apparatchiks running the show need to come to this realization as quickly as possible. Losing a match, any match, must cause an excruciating pain which no moral victories could provide relief to. "Putting in a fight" should not be a standard. Only winning counts.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Spot on.

These 'blessings in disguise' and 'fighting spirit' nonsense has been going on for a long time.

It is results business and that is another SENA defeat for Pakistan. It must have implications.

 

[ARK Rafay]

Yes. Enough of this winning hearts. This is not Zimbabwe team. Pakistan has history of playing and winning top class matches. Time and time again we've fallen short and collapsed under pressure. Fight is what Naseem and Shaheen putted in the end. It was not their responsibility to get a draw for Pakistan in the last 15 overs with the bat. But the rest of the batsman. I'm so sorry to say it's not enough. Players and characters are made when they get their teams across finish line.

 

[James Steven]

That's what I said in a post. "Putting fight" etc is a very Zimbabwe and Associate-esque thing to do.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Pakistani fans lol. This is a great performance. I'm unsure of Australia, but no other test team can win in NZ at this point in time. You were without your best batsman and up against GOAT NZ side in side. In fact they are the #1 side in the world. Nothing to be ashamed of

 

[Usman Chadda]

Pakistani fans lol. This is a great performance. I'm unsure of Australia, but no other test team can win in NZ at this point in time. You were without your best batsman and up against GOAT NZ side in side. In fact they are the #1 side in the world. T

These lads do well when they have nothing to lose. An iota of pressure, and they are so mentally fragile, that they end up losing six wickets in one session to hand the match on a platter.

Pakistan won at most two sessions in this game, you don't deserve to even compete in a test if that's the case.

 

[waleed88]

When Pakistan displayed dogged resistance and scored 450 in the 1st test against Australia in December of 2016, the record threatening chase provided relief to the Pakistani fans despite the eventual loss. However, the antics that followed defined everything that is wrong with the Pakistani mindset. A pompous cake cutting ceremony to celebrate the resilient knock of Asad shafiq when defeat was stamped on the players' foreheads was unbecoming of a team that boasts about a glorious legacy.

Time and time again we have seen Pakistani team management and fans go gaga over moral victories after clear defeats. This very attitude is the problem and makes defeat acceptable. Defeat is never acceptable. There is always shame in defeat and it is high time that Pakistanis start feeling that way.

The statement that "defeat doesn't feel so bad when you put in a fight" is acceptable only when you are in a habit of winning. When you know that you win more often than not, a defeat once in a while when you give it your everything doesn't taste as bitter as it normally would. The apparatchiks running the show need to come to this realization as quickly as possible. Losing a match, any match, must cause an excruciating pain which no moral victories could provide relief to. "Putting in a fight" should not be a standard. Only winning counts.

That has not been because that one performance wasn't very good. It's because the team didn't play as a team and relied on individual brilliance. Too many times in our innings there have been only one or two batsmen that scored for Pakistan. When you have the game lost inside of 3 days that is when the need arises. Sure it doesn't get rid of the performances that were put in that were outstanding. Both Fawad and Rizwan were very very good. It means the team needs to play better as a team and accountability needs to be in order for those big names that haven't performed in a while.

 

[James Steven]

Pakistani fans lol. This is a great performance. I'm unsure of Australia, but no other test team can win in NZ at this point in time. You were without your best batsman and up against GOAT NZ side in side. In fact they are the #1 side in the world. Nothing to be ashamed of

Most of the good teams in NZ managed to draw at least one Test.

 

[Madplayer]

Pakistani fans lol. This is a great performance. I'm unsure of Australia, but no other test team can win in NZ at this point in time. You were without your best batsman and up against GOAT NZ side in side. In fact they are the #1 side in the world. Nothing to be ashamed of

Pakistan has everything to be ashamed of by losing so many test matches in SENA countries.

"The opposition was too good and we are glad we could compete well" is a defeatist mindset. There is nothing to be glad about in losing.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Pakistan has everything to be ashamed of by losing so many test matches in SENA countries.

"The opposition was too good and we are glad we could compete well" is a defeatist mindset. There is nothing to be glad about in losing.

it is just a sport, played for entertainment. Losing a game is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Yk313]

Think part of the problem lies in the mentality of the fans who are happy to gloss over the glaring shortcomings when some rearguard action makes the scoreline watchable.

The problem is exacerbated by the fans hitting ‘reset’ mentally and getting hooked by the game.

A good example would be Brisbane 2016. All the while that the score was out of reach and wickets were tumbling, we were resigned to it being a loss.

When the scoreline got interesting, fans reassessed the chances and regained optimism. However, losing from that position meant that they only compared the loss from the point of where their interest had been reawakened, not from the start of the test match. Hence, the feeling of so close, yet so far which lead to the nausea inducing notion of heroic losses and moral victories.

Edgbaston (16), Sydney (10), Hamilton (16), UAE (18), Old Trafford (20), Oval Bay (20).... and counting.

Let’s not think about the capitulation over the last few overs alone. Let’s be honest with ourselves. Did we really deserve to win or draw on the basis of our performance over the 5 days? Did we field over best XI? Did we know where to bowl to each batsman (they certainly did)? And a multitude of other questions which we know and no point repeating them here.

Do not think about these answers from the moment just before Rizwan’s wicket. Think of the entire Test match. Or read Rizwan’s comments at closing. We seem to have a level-headed and honest cricketer.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Well, inside the dressing room I don’t blame them celebrating knocks like Fawad Alam’s or Asad Shafiq’s in 2016. You need some kind of moral victory to keep the spirits high, othewise these losses create a loser’s mentality.

It shouldn’t be a standard for fans, but the coaches need to create an illusion within the dressing room that we fought very well. I don’t think it’s an illusion either, it’s the truth. Kane’s second slowest ever half century, and slowest ever century. Lots of catches not taken and DRS reviews missed, still we took it into the last 5 overs of the 5th day against the number 1 Test side and GOAT NZ side in their own backyard, after they demolished the GOAT/second GOAT Indian side just last year inside 4 days twice. All this without Babar.

Obviously a win is what we wanted, and a draw would have kept a series win on the cards, but we played some fantastic cricket. Our bowling did well, Rizwan looks a million dollars, Fawad had an amazing fairytale innings after 11 years in the wilderness, and Faheem Ashraf proved all his haters wrong. Our top order collapsed, but add Babar back into the side and there’s twice as much stability all of a sudden. I don’t think we did as badly as some are making it out to be.

Putting in a fight does count, because it’s better than getting rolled over. Finally, take this loss as a positive - some selection decisions will be easier for the SA series.

 

[imranyounus]

Imagine if it was 150 all out on 4th day vs surviving till second last over.

 

[Madplayer]

Well, inside the dressing room I don’t blame them celebrating knocks like Fawad Alam’s or Asad Shafiq’s in 2016. You need some kind of moral victory to keep the spirits high, othewise these losses create a loser’s mentality.

It shouldn’t be a standard for fans, but the coaches need to create an illusion within the dressing room that we fought very well. I don’t think it’s an illusion either, it’s the truth. Kane’s second slowest ever half century, and slowest ever century. Lots of catches not taken and DRS reviews missed, still we took it into the last 5 overs of the 5th day against the number 1 Test side and GOAT NZ side in their own backyard, after they demolished the GOAT/second GOAT Indian side just last year inside 4 days twice. All this without Babar.

Obviously a win is what we wanted, and a draw would have kept a series win on the cards, but we played some fantastic cricket. Our bowling did well, Rizwan looks a million dollars, Fawad had an amazing fairytale innings after 11 years in the wilderness, and Faheem Ashraf proved all his haters wrong. Our top order collapsed, but add Babar back into the side and there’s twice as much stability all of a sudden. I don’t think we did as badly as some are making it out to be.

Putting in a fight does count, because it’s better than getting rolled over. Finally, take this loss as a positive - some selection decisions will be easier for the SA series.

Like i've mentioned in the OP, "we lost but we put in a good fight" argument should only be acceptable when you win more matches than you lose. When you almost always lose in these conditions, moral victories only mask your shortcomings.

 

[Madplayer]

it is just a sport, played for entertainment. Losing a game is nothing to be ashamed of.

Its their profession.

 

[wajid]

I will be quite happy if everybody is putting up a fight. The fact is less than half of playing team showed any intention to fight......If everyone puts up a fight and we still lose then atleast we can make peace with the fact that this is our ceiling. With this kind of performances everyone remains hanged on 'what if'?

 

[Madplayer]

Imagine if it was 150 all out on 4th day vs surviving till second last over.

At least that wouldnt have given false moral victories.

Look i know they did well to take it to the final few overs. But whenever this happens, we begin to forget what put us in the situation where we had to survive against all odds to save a test match. And we lose more than we win anyway so these moral victories are useless. We should always ask, where is the win?

 

[Suleiman]

It’s not about shame, but more about professionalism and gunning to be the best.

It’s okay to see silver linings and appreciate them. It’s not okay to do a parade about them when you’ve clearly lost the game or in some cases the game hasn’t even been decided before the cake rolls in ready to be cut. What the hell is that? Eating cakes as pro players and celebrating hundreds MID TESTS at times. Are you a 7 year old having a birthday party?

Same can be said about some of our guys taking off helmet and yelling after scoring a mere 50. Yeah raise the bat, but why are you celebrating as if you made a hundred.

I hate this term, but this is a symptom of minnow mentality. Their expectation of themselves has reached rock bottom that anything positive provokes over the top celebrations for the simplest positives.

At the same time the gulf between us and other teams has widened so much that subconsciously our players realize it too, hence celebrating any minor victory regardless of the result of the match.

People keep talking about mindset, but a strong mindset doesn’t come from magic. It is the byproduct of your belief (which comes from actually performing vs top opposition) and standard that you hold yourself to as a player and a person... but if you know deep inside you’re not an international level player then you can’t really fake a strong mindset no matter who you are.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Like i've mentioned in the OP, "we lost but we put in a good fight" argument should only be acceptable when you win more matches than you lose. When you almost always lose in these conditions, moral victories only mask your shortcomings.

I know, but what do you want? For Misbah to tell the entire team they suck? You need to keep a high morale in the dressing room. That’s why these cakes are cut. Otherwise, next time, Rizwan or Faheem will go into a shell and be afraid to fight. It’s Shafiq’s midget mentality that he’s never kicked on.

As for fans, why do you expect us to perform well without our best player, that too against the number 1 side in the world? We are ranked 7th in Test cricket. We’re pretty bad. Focus on the future and do your job as a fan calling out the injustices and putting pressure on Misbah to make the right selection calls.

We were actually successful in this regard, we got Asad Shafiq dropped. It’s only a matter of time before some more heads roll too.

 

[Energy]

Funny part is 'putting in a fight' never even results in a draw. it results in a loss. Only in Pakistan.

 

[DeadBall]

Some of these players like Haris, Yasir etc look so lazy, stupid, indifferent or disinterested that they should just put "verified intelligent living organism" next to their names every time they are on screen just to reassure the viewers.

 

[Energy]

Some of these players like Haris, Yasir etc look so lazy, stupid, indifferent or disinterested that they should just put "verified intelligent living organism" next to their names every time they are on screen just to reassure the viewers.

Yasir usually dives over the ball belly first so I'd give him that. Never seen him stop anything going past though.

 

[Mamoon]

Only mediocre teams with limited winning potential cares about fight, positives and blessings in disguise.

Pakistan fits the bill.

 

[Savak]

The match was a certain draw at tea time before Pakistan chocked under pressure given that they were now expected to draw the game

 

[Shazzam]

I know, but what do you want? For Misbah to tell the entire team they suck? You need to keep a high morale in the dressing room. That’s why these cakes are cut. Otherwise, next time, Rizwan or Faheem will go into a shell and be afraid to fight. It’s Shafiq’s midget mentality that he’s never kicked on.

As for fans, why do you expect us to perform well without our best player, that too against the number 1 side in the world? We are ranked 7th in Test cricket. We’re pretty bad. Focus on the future and do your job as a fan calling out the injustices and putting pressure on Misbah to make the right selection calls.

We were actually successful in this regard, we got Asad Shafiq dropped. It’s only a matter of time before some more heads roll too.

Come on dude these are professional cricketers. They should not need some cake to make them want to perform more. They got selected out of many fighting for there spots. The least they could do is try to perform the job they are paid to do by being more responsible. Misbah should not need to tell them there short comings, they should know already. As professional cricketers they should have a proper atmosphere. Not this kindagarden one your spouting.

 

[Energy]

The match was a certain draw at tea time before Pakistan chocked under pressure given that they were now expected to draw the game

Sums it up perfectly. We're considered as a team that can lose from any position. The whole world is aware now.

 

[Hasan123]

This is the right mentality to have. Yes there was some fight today but some people are forgetting how we throughly outplayed for most of the game. Let's be honest , New Zealand on another day wrap this up quicker than they did. We need to se better performances across the full test not just 1 day.

 

[ChTab]

Definitely only wining should be the target or at least getting draws in away test @ SENA. It doesn't matter if you lost the game by putting up a fight or loose a test match by scoring 36 runs in 2nd inns, the end result is same. Nobody will remember in 2 to 5 years that you put up a fight & lost the match, people will only remember it if you avoid the defeat.

 

[Cric1234]

Definitely only wining should be the target or at least getting draws in away test @ SENA. It doesn't matter if you lost the game by putting up a fight or loose a test match by scoring 36 runs in 2nd inns, the end result is same. Nobody will remember in 2 to 5 years that you put up a fight & lost the match, people will only remember it if you avoid the defeat.

Indeed in the last 4 tours of SENA only rain had saved us in England from a complete 10-0 whitewash we’ve lost 7 out of 9 so far with the other 2 rain affected draws where 1 was an certain loss with the other in the balance.

With our mentally weak team unable to finish matches it’s likely it would’ve been a loss aswell.

Theres always positives to take out of losses unfortunately outside Asia we’ve forgotten the art of winning and that is a worrying sign.

 

[DandyFellow]

In the long run winning is an integral part of any sport but to achieve a goal you have to go through certain transformations. The fight put in today was a step in the right direction because it provided some idea to the top order on how to perform.
For winning test matches, the team needs to contribute individually and collectively. With only few players showing up it is extremely difficult to get wins. In the process, we forget to appreciate the players who do better because others let the team down and we lost. In simple words you can not win if your top 4 fails. With all the mediocrity, it is really surprising that Pakistan took the match to last 5 overs of the test. Mediocrity aside sometimes you need to be positive to move ahead in life and there are positives to take from the performance in late middle order.

 

[Abid Z]

Like i've mentioned in the OP, "we lost but we put in a good fight" argument should only be acceptable when you win more matches than you lose. When you almost always lose in these conditions, moral victories only mask your shortcomings.

But your whole premise is entirely misplaced. Good teams fight, good teams push the opposition, good teams focus on the positives and the core of good players.

This team is made up of mostly bits and pieces and veterans but the core is strong. Rizwan,ssa, babar and Naseem are truly world class (Naseem unproven as yet).

Once you get a core clicking you can really focus on the ability to take 20 wickets. We’ve always had the ability to take 20 wickets until about the last 7/8 years. Due to that our performances have always been sketchy.

I think this loss against a very good nz side shows that once we get the bowling right and yes it’s almost there then future matches will be closer than this one. I know they scored 450 + and declared but there were moments when the bowling really put a lot of pressure on nz. We just never had that in Australia and that’s where the matches were lost. This is why a fight is important and nothing to do with legacy or history. In the present we have good bench strength. We lacked this in Australia.

 

[Osman]

The fact that there was a cake cutting ceremony when Asad Shafiq made a 100 in a losing cause sums up the mentality of guys like him, Abid Ali, Khurram Manzoor. These guys have such low standards. I remember the final test of the NZ series in 2018 in UAE when Shafiq hit one of his impactless 100s (and then unsurprisingly got out soon after and left the team in a hole again) - how he was retweeting all these posts from his fan girls who were posting screenshots of him with quotes like "form is temporary class in permanent" and all that nonsense.

Some of these guys are so mediocre yet heroes in their own head. Can you imagine this happening in the days of Imran Khan, Wasim Akram etc. Would never be allowed

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

Look, I agree that there shouldn't be anything to celebrate. Pakistan have lost this game, and whilst ultimately victory and defeat come from Allah, the team has to have a winning mindset. The problem with Fawad and Rizwan's gutsy knocks are how they become the narrative. They completely will paper over the cracks of *that* first innings approach from Azhar and Fawad himself. It'll will paper over the cracks of a non existent opening pair. It'll paper over the cracks of Abbas and Yasir's lack of effectiveness.

I completely understand that positive need to be taken into the second test. You need an emotional base to build from and InshAllah maybe this rearguard action may be it. However, given that the game was lost, there absolutely should be no celebrations, but a steely desire to do better. I know that Rizwan has that, as probably does Shaheen. But does Misbah have that singleminded thinking? Will he make the changes necessary (Abid, Yasir benched for Babar and Sohail Khan). Will he actually inspire the team to build on this? The jury is definitely out.

 

[Madplayer]

But your whole premise is entirely misplaced. Good teams fight, good teams push the opposition, good teams focus on the positives and the core of good players.

You forgot the most important thing which comes before all of the things which you mentioned and which is the perfectly placed premise of this thread - Good teams win matches. Everything else is secondary and should never be a cause of celebration unless you have a habit of winning and once in a while you lose a close match after putting in a good fight. If losing is your habit, whats the point of finding solace in "we fought well"? Thats minnow mentality. Only winning counts.

 

[Madplayer]

Look, I agree that there shouldn't be anything to celebrate. Pakistan have lost this game, and whilst ultimately victory and defeat come from Allah, the team has to have a winning mindset. The problem with Fawad and Rizwan's gutsy knocks are how they become the narrative. They completely will paper over the cracks of *that* first innings approach from Azhar and Fawad himself. It'll will paper over the cracks of a non existent opening pair. It'll paper over the cracks of Abbas and Yasir's lack of effectiveness.

I completely understand that positive need to be taken into the second test. You need an emotional base to build from and InshAllah maybe this rearguard action may be it. However, given that the game was lost, there absolutely should be no celebrations, but a steely desire to do better. I know that Rizwan has that, as probably does Shaheen. But does Misbah have that singleminded thinking? Will he make the changes necessary (Abid, Yasir benched for Babar and Sohail Khan). Will he actually inspire the team to build on this? The jury is definitely out.

This is a good, balanced post.

 

[Abid Z]

You forgot the most important thing which comes before all of the things which you mentioned and which is the perfectly placed premise of this thread - Good teams win matches. Everything else is secondary and should never be a cause of celebration unless you have a habit of winning and once in a while you lose a close match after putting in a good fight. If losing is your habit, whats the point of finding solace in "we fought well"? Thats minnow mentality. Only winning counts.

I didn’t forget it. I just chose not to dwell on it because of the obvious fact that before a good team becomes a good team you need a pathway or roadmap to become a good team. To do that you need a core of players whose names I’ve mentioned. Then you need to know that you can push the opposition while maintaining a good bench. I don’t think anybody is celebrating this loss but for once in a long time we can see a core of players emerging that can fight and slowly push out the passengers in the team.

 

[Madplayer]

I didn’t forget it. I just chose not to dwell on it because of the obvious fact that before a good team becomes a good team you need a pathway or roadmap to become a good team. To do that you need a core of players whose names I’ve mentioned. Then you need to know that you can push the opposition while maintaining a good bench. I don’t think anybody is celebrating this loss but for once in a long time we can see a core of players emerging that can fight and slowly push out the passengers in the team.

If the bolded part is the case then thats what the thread is asking for.

But be honest here, didnt the fans think the same about various new players since last 8-10 years? That a good core of players is developing? But those players never kicked on and the "positives of a few good fighting performances" never translated into victories. In fact they became a coping mechanism for the team management as well as the fans. The pinnacle of it was the cake cutting incident mentioned in the OP. And even today fans on social media were saying that today's defeat doesnt feel bad. Standards have definitely fallen in my opinion.

 

[Saj]

I think this we tried hard nonsense has come into Pakistan cricket in the last few years, ever since we became mediocre in every format.

Losing is a bad habit and Pakistan have got used to losing.

So in order to paper over the cracks we resort to so and so did well and we tried hard, we fought hard nonsense.

The mindset needs to change and change very quickly.

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

I think this we tried hard nonsense has come into Pakistan cricket in the last few years, ever since we became mediocre in every format.

Losing is a bad habit and Pakistan have got used to losing.

So in order to paper over the cracks we resort to so and so did well and we tried hard, we fought hard nonsense.

The mindset needs to change and change very quickly.

You can't ever guarantee victory, but with a positive mindset (I.e. "InshAllah we WILL win", as opposed to "InshAllah, we'll do our best") you'll win more than you lose.

That mindset is set by the 'tone from the top'. It comes from that bloody minded mentality to win at all costs. It's clear that Rizwan definitely has that mindset. His skill set, allied with that talent allows him to perform in tests (albeit not in white ball cricket).

Shaheen is a lion and he definitely has that mindset too Alhamdulillah .

However, do the openers have the same mindset? Does Azhar? Centrally and of most importance, does Misbah?

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

I think this we tried hard nonsense has come into Pakistan cricket in the last few years, ever since we became mediocre in every format.

Losing is a bad habit and Pakistan have got used to losing.

So in order to paper over the cracks we resort to so and so did well and we tried hard, we fought hard nonsense.

The mindset needs to change and change very quickly.

Also bro, you raise a very relevant point here. It would be good to see Misbah addressed with this question in his next presser, in lieu of his coaching record. Thanks

 

[Omer2002]

That wicket was flat and we had the advantage of using it first thats the most disappointing part. Then if shaheen and naseem can bat for 8 overs why couldnt the top order. There was no seam no swing no nothing yet azhar played such a wide ball in first over and dont get me started on the top three dismissals.

Faddy and Rizwan showed great fight no doubt but not to take anything away from their innings the pitch was flat only way getting out was short pitch deliveries or maybe uneven bounce...

So basically i am a very disappointed fan because i know when there is movement in the wicket we have no chance in batting anyways..

Finally now that we have lost the first test i think.they need to continue with the 5 man bowling attack for last tests

 

[Saj]

Too many passengers in the team with a weak mindset who look to perform once every few matches and just enough to keep them in the selection reckoning.

Far too many cricketers who just look to do enough to get selected for the next tour instead of looking to lead and inspire.

 

[Kaka4pope]

Not sure what else Rizwan can say, he realises reliability of the team is low across all 3 areas, even with Azam back.

Also decision to bowl first, wasn’t vindicated by the dropped chances but he knew his batters would've been worried about a collapse on the first morning.

 

[Osman]

Please call them out?

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Obviously only a win counts, but this is still a good effort from Pakistan B without Babar. Monumental efforts from Fawad and Rizwan.

But yes it doesn't change the fact that Shaan, Abid and Azhar should be criticized to the core as they have been there for sometime now.

Things are this bad for our top order that even a 40 year old Hafeez would have done better than Azhar, Haris.

 

[Pakpak]

The fact that there was a cake cutting ceremony when Asad Shafiq made a 100 in a losing cause sums up the mentality of guys like him, Abid Ali, Khurram Manzoor. These guys have such low standards. I remember the final test of the NZ series in 2018 in UAE when Shafiq hit one of his impactless 100s (and then unsurprisingly got out soon after and left the team in a hole again) - how he was retweeting all these posts from his fan girls who were posting screenshots of him with quotes like "form is temporary class in permanent" and all that nonsense.

Some of these guys are so mediocre yet heroes in their own head. Can you imagine this happening in the days of Imran Khan, Wasim Akram etc. Would never be allowed

Wow the first I'm hearing of this. This is truly pathetic and mediocre and no wonder why the guy has had thoroughly mediocre career. If I was a coach and my player did it I'd throw the kitchen sink at him.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

I generally feel that the current Pakistani team is aiming to be a "diloun ki champion" instead of a team chasing sporting glory. The mentality that was previously associated with Pakistani players just doesn't exist in these bunch of players.

England was our fierce rival and the rivalry was deeply linked with the colonial past with umpires, captains, and even journalists trading blows with each other but now it has watered down to such a level that there's a high chance that players from the English team would be eating together with the Pakistani players even during a test match.

I guess we have become the kiwi team of the 90's where we are the second team of most cricket fans except fans from a certain region. A team that's capable to do well in ICC tournaments and produce moments of brilliance but cannot sustain high levels of performance in a grueling test series.

Add to that most of the guys are actually likable. Abbas looks like someone who whispers lullabies to his cats before tucking them in. Rizwan feels like that bloke who stops his car and helps old people so they can cross the streets. Shan in spectacles looks like a guy fired from an accounting firm because he refused to help the rich in evading taxes. Haris looks like the friendly neighborhood uncle who has three daughters that are best friends with your daughters and he carpools them to school. Azhar looks like the doctor who's worked for doctors without borders for so long that he really doesn't believe in any kind of geographical borders. Yasir is that plump overweight relative whose house you love going to because he has the best sense of humor on the entire planet and the only fear you have meeting him is that they'll feed you so much that you'll have to spend the entire next two days in the gym burning those calories. Even Babar the captain is such a mellow gentleman and a stark polar opposite in comparison to our past prime batsmen who were known to throw more tantrums a day than the runs that they scored. Abid, Shaheen, & Fawad also look like guys whom you'd trust your car keys with and they'd not only return the car on time, they'd also top up the fuel in the tank and put a thankyou note on the bonnet as a bonus.

While sportsmanship and decency are good, they need to understand that we can win matches and be competitive and still maintain this jovial spirit. Getting banged in the head with a bouncer and smiling back at the bowler and giving them fist bumps isn't really showing intent to win which shows mental frailty.

Compete hard, be strong, show sportsmanship but also show mettle and fight for your country.

 

[Titan24]

Add to that most of the guys are actually likable. Abbas looks like someone who whispers lullabies to his cats before tucking them in. Rizwan feels like that bloke who stops his car and helps old people so they can cross the streets. Shan in spectacles looks like a guy fired from an accounting firm because he refused to help the rich in evading taxes. Haris looks like the friendly neighborhood uncle who has three daughters that are best friends with your daughters and he carpools them to school. Azhar looks like the doctor who's worked for doctors without borders for so long that he really doesn't believe in any kind of geographical borders. Yasir is that plump overweight relative whose house you love going to because he has the best sense of humor on the entire planet and the only fear you have meeting him is that they'll feed you so much that you'll have to spend the entire next two days in the gym burning those calories. Even Babar the captain is such a mellow gentleman and a stark polar opposite in comparison to our past prime batsmen who were known to throw more tantrums a day than the runs that they scored. Abid, Shaheen, & Fawad also look like guys whom you'd trust your car keys with and they'd not only return the car on time, they'd also top up the fuel in the tank and put a thankyou note on the bonnet as a bonus.

Nice guys xi.

 

[Birdman]

Well, inside the dressing room I don’t blame them celebrating knocks like Fawad Alam’s or Asad Shafiq’s in 2016. You need some kind of moral victory to keep the spirits high, othewise these losses create a loser’s mentality.

It shouldn’t be a standard for fans, but the coaches need to create an illusion within the dressing room that we fought very well. I don’t think it’s an illusion either, it’s the truth. Kane’s second slowest ever half century, and slowest ever century. Lots of catches not taken and DRS reviews missed, still we took it into the last 5 overs of the 5th day against the number 1 Test side and GOAT NZ side in their own backyard, after they demolished the GOAT/second GOAT Indian side just last year inside 4 days twice. All this without Babar.

Obviously a win is what we wanted, and a draw would have kept a series win on the cards, but we played some fantastic cricket. Our bowling did well, Rizwan looks a million dollars, Fawad had an amazing fairytale innings after 11 years in the wilderness, and Faheem Ashraf proved all his haters wrong. Our top order collapsed, but add Babar back into the side and there’s twice as much stability all of a sudden. I don’t think we did as badly as some are making it out to be.

Putting in a fight does count, because it’s better than getting rolled over. Finally, take this loss as a positive - some selection decisions will be easier for the SA series.

It's funny how the fans want the coach to create an illusion, these are grown men and professionals for god's sake. They don't need coach to tell them they did not finish the job. They should know where they messed up and should fix it. Coach should tell them the truth and should create a plan so they don't keep repeating their mistakes. These are not 12 year old kids.

 

[silent ischemia]

To win a Test you need to take 20 wickets but unfortunately you don't have the resources to do so in the current conditions

 

[Thunderbolt14]

It's funny how the fans want the coach to create an illusion, these are grown men and professionals for god's sake. They don't need coach to tell them they did not finish the job. They should know where they messed up and should fix it. Coach should tell them the truth and should create a plan so they don't keep repeating their mistakes. These are not 12 year old kids.

Well, I’m glad you’re not a coach.

 

[unemployedgm]

I agree. Fighting is a minimum requirement. It's expected.

 

[unemployedgm]

Too many passengers in the team with a weak mindset who look to perform once every few matches and just enough to keep them in the selection reckoning.

Far too many cricketers who just look to do enough to get selected for the next tour instead of looking to lead and inspire.

Saj, your point is noted and fair. But is that they are weak mentally, or the system of selection in Pakistan is so untrustworthy that players are living on a knife's edge. Is it possible for players to excel at the highest level when they can miss out on a decade of cricket with no rationale? I think it becomes hard to walk out into the middle perform and explore the full extent of your talent when your Coach, Captain, and Chief Selector can drop you at a moments notice without explanation.

The financial disparity of being a domestic player and an international player is such that the vast majority of players are hanging on rather than becoming the best versions of themselves because the structure and the system simply doesn't allow it. Fawad's century to me is almost like a triple century, because he's literally playing for his life. He's not just playing the situation, the bowler, the captain, and the pitch. He's literally fighting against a cricket establishment. That is really hard. He was able to come out the other side because he was tough as nails. The vast majority of people are quite frankly not that tough.

 

[UzmanBeast]

To win a Test you need to take 20 wickets but unfortunately you don't have the resources to do so in the current conditions

A team can only go as far as the selections permit. If we had selected a proper bowling attack and gone in with more batting, we would have won.

What gave the management the idea of playing Yasir Shah on this pitch? Even if there was a need of a spinner, we should have gone with an all-rounder.

Naseem has himself to blame for his own bowling, because he gave the likes of Williamson and Taylor runs to settle in.

Our slips stand too far, another area where the team needs to improve and something the management needs to point out.

Batsmen like Haris are making the same mistakes and no technical adjustment is being made. Management makes no plans against particular players like using the short ball to Woakes.

Fielding is poor as usual, and we need a proper coach.

A lot of issues are from the management, such as having poor support systems for players and idiotic selections. But mistakes like bowling full and nicking the ball down the leg side or forgetting to move the feet is up to our players to fix.

 

[guna]

For a middle tier team, Pakistani fans sure set the bar really high. This was a brilliant performance by Pakistan in a lost cause. The presence if Babar Azam in place of Haris Sohail would have made the match even closer.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Like i've mentioned in the OP, "we lost but we put in a good fight" argument should only be acceptable when you win more matches than you lose. When you almost always lose in these conditions, moral victories only mask your shortcomings.

You gotta start from somewhere, no?
You can’t tun in 180 overnight, can you?

I think we should get behind this effort and support/encourage the fight. This may perhaps act as an incentive to others and they are encouraged to step up their game.

Having a critique is a good way to identify the short comings and improving from there, BUT a fair and balanced encouragement could also play a great role. A continuous critique and discouragement creates frustration and then it backfires.

There is a little spark of hope, why step on it?

Let’s be wise and generous and learn how to use carrots and a stick in a balanced way.

Why live in the glories of the past?
Let’s be bitterly honest with ourselves. We ARE a pretty low tier test quality team - and at this level, putting up a fight is better than having the game finished in two days.

Our top order is the Achilles heel, we need to come up with some solutions as how to improve it rather than just switching the names or changing the batting order.

Our lower order batsmen (who are our actually our bowlers) bat as if they are playing cricket reserved for mental ret@rd$*.
Together with their bowling they must need to improve at least 10% of their batting ability.


Again, this was a gripping test match from the entertainment POV, and had our eyes glued to the screen - and this is what it’s all about.

Victory is definitely sweet but it doesn’t hurt as bad if you die fighting!

 

[sharmaji]

lol this was so funny!!

You're very creative. And funny. This cracked me up.

Add to that most of the guys are actually likable. Abbas looks like someone who whispers lullabies to his cats before tucking them in. Rizwan feels like that bloke who stops his car and helps old people so they can cross the streets. Shan in spectacles looks like a guy fired from an accounting firm because he refused to help the rich in evading taxes. Haris looks like the friendly neighborhood uncle who has three daughters that are best friends with your daughters and he carpools them to school. Azhar looks like the doctor who's worked for doctors without borders for so long that he really doesn't believe in any kind of geographical borders. Yasir is that plump overweight relative whose house you love going to because he has the best sense of humor on the entire planet and the only fear you have meeting him is that they'll feed you so much that you'll have to spend the entire next two days in the gym burning those calories. Even Babar the captain is such a mellow gentleman and a stark polar opposite in comparison to our past prime batsmen who were known to throw more tantrums a day than the runs that they scored. Abid, Shaheen, & Fawad also look like guys whom you'd trust your car keys with and they'd not only return the car on time, they'd also top up the fuel in the tank and put a thankyou note on the bonnet as a bonus.

 

[Saj]

Saj, your point is noted and fair. But is that they are weak mentally, or the system of selection in Pakistan is so untrustworthy that players are living on a knife's edge. Is it possible for players to excel at the highest level when they can miss out on a decade of cricket with no rationale? I think it becomes hard to walk out into the middle perform and explore the full extent of your talent when your Coach, Captain, and Chief Selector can drop you at a moments notice without explanation.

The financial disparity of being a domestic player and an international player is such that the vast majority of players are hanging on rather than becoming the best versions of themselves because the structure and the system simply doesn't allow it. Fawad's century to me is almost like a triple century, because he's literally playing for his life. He's not just playing the situation, the bowler, the captain, and the pitch. He's literally fighting against a cricket establishment. That is really hard. He was able to come out the other side because he was tough as nails. The vast majority of people are quite frankly not that tough.

The system produces the type of players we have at the moment. This will take a few years to change and hopefully have an impact.

The majority of players we have are simply not good enough and will perform once in a while but will more often than not fail.

Poor selections over the years, faith in the wrong players, poor levels of fitness, throwing players in too soon are all issues that are adding to the problems.

 

[unemployedgm]

The system produces the type of players we have at the moment. This will take a few years to change and hopefully have an impact.

The majority of players we have are simply not good enough and will perform once in a while but will more often than not fail.

Poor selections over the years, faith in the wrong players, poor levels of fitness, throwing players in too soon are all issues that are adding to the problems.

I don't disagree. But as someone who watches a lot of Domestic Cricket and Cricket Internationally there is enough talent in Pakistan to be far better than they are right now. All the things you discussed are negatives in our long-term growth but there is enough talent to build a winning team across the three formats. But there isn't enough talent to overcome a lack of alignment and poor selection.

Examples:

1. When you select Muhammad Musa out of turn it becomes difficult to win because he's not out there playing on merit.

2. When you ask Imam ul Haq to play 10 test matches with a Domestic FC average of 35 it becomes difficult to win.

3. When Shan Masood plays 24 Test Matches with a Domestic FC average of less than 35 it becomes difficult to win.

In Pakistan, we don't know how to Identify Talent.
In Pakistan, we don't know how to Evaluate Talent.
In Pakistan, we don't know how to Project Talent.
In Pakistan, we don't know how to Develop Talent.
In Pakistan, we don't know how to Integrate Talent.
In Pakistan, we don't know how to Construct a Roster in Any Format. No one could tell you why we won the 1992 World Cup, Appeared in the 1999 World Cup Final, Won the 2020 World Cup in 2009, or Won the Champions Trophy in 2017. No one can tell you how this happened.
In Pakistan, we don't know how to Construct a Batting, a Bowling, or a Fielding Lineup.
In Pakistan, we don't think about Cricket in the Right Way. Everything that we do is a reaction to a negative result. Our approach and thought process around the game is very limited. It lacks a high degree of intellectual discourse. Those people end in positions of power. I'm not talking about Wasim Khan because he's in his position on merit.

But after the First Innings failure, Younis Khan (The Batting Coach) advised that our strategy was to build partnerships. THAT IS NOT A STRATEGY!!! In Cricket we are used to saying things that under the surface don't mean anything. Building Partnerships sounds nice, but at any point are we trying not to build partnerships. Did anyone ever think about How We Go About Building a Partnership? I have a lot of respect for Younis Khan the batsman, but there is far more nuance and complexity to Batting than building partnerships. But this is how we think. We are very basic in our approach and in the way we think about the game. The game of cricket is far or at least should be far more complex. To simplify complex ideas you need very smart people. People who are critical thinkers. People who can take an idea like Building Partnerships and break it down into a curriculum that can be taught.

The saving grace for our cricket is that the rest of the world's approach to cricket is also very basic. For all there advancements, Australia asked Matthew Wade to open in place of David Warner. Wade has never opened in FC Cricket. He is 32 and averages 30 odd in Test Cricket. Yes our way of thinking about cricket may be the most egregious but the world is not so far ahead.

 

[happydavy]

Everything in life is a process. You can't become the winner from day 1, you need to take a few blows, fight it out, show perseverance and if you stick to it, then you will emerge winners finally. Pakistan has a young team, with limited resources and exposure, and they played well. Whether they are able to build from this point, will determine their success. So while this loss is no cause for celebration, it is a reason to be hopeful. I am esp impressed by the captain, I had never seen him bat but if his 2 innings are any indication, then he might just be the right guy to lead. Problem is pakistan cricket is controlled by PCB, which in turn is controlled by fans and this forum. The amount of negativity on this forum for their team, the constant criticism of selectors/coach/administration needs to change.

 

[Birdman]

Well, I’m glad you’re not a coach.

Believe it or not I am a coach and have coached many successful D-1 athletes.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Believe it or not I am a coach and have coached many successful D-1 athletes.

And you never support your players after a defeat? I’m not talking about cake cutting which is going overboard, I’m strictly talking about keeping the morale high.

You say you’ve coached many successful D-1 athletes, is that in team games or individual sports? Morale is important - I can’t fathom a coach ragging on his players during defeats. Critical analysis is important, and so is telling the players like it is, but there’s a way of going about it.

In context of this thread, you have never, to any of your players consoled them for “putting in a fight” after a tough loss?

 

[Madplayer]

You gotta start from somewhere, no?
You can’t tun in 180 overnight, can you?

I think we should get behind this effort and support/encourage the fight. This may perhaps act as an incentive to others and they are encouraged to step up their game.

Having a critique is a good way to identify the short comings and improving from there, BUT a fair and balanced encouragement could also play a great role. A continuous critique and discouragement creates frustration and then it backfires.

There is a little spark of hope, why step on it?

Let’s be wise and generous and learn how to use carrots and a stick in a balanced way.

Why live in the glories of the past?
Let’s be bitterly honest with ourselves. We ARE a pretty low tier test quality team - and at this level, putting up a fight is better than having the game finished in two days.

Our top order is the Achilles heel, we need to come up with some solutions as how to improve it rather than just switching the names or changing the batting order.

Our lower order batsmen (who are our actually our bowlers) bat as if they are playing cricket reserved for mental ret@rd$*.
Together with their bowling they must need to improve at least 10% of their batting ability.


Again, this was a gripping test match from the entertainment POV, and had our eyes glued to the screen - and this is what it’s all about.

Victory is definitely sweet but it doesn’t hurt as bad if you die fighting!

I disagree completely because this approach has failed. Pakistani fans and management have been doing this since last 10 years now. Where are the results? How many decades more are needed before this "we gotta start somewhere" part ends? Players keep changing but mindset remains same. The "we put in a good fight" argument has become a coping mechanism for all of us after all defeats (which is now more often than not). It is better to tell the players as it is.

That they are losing games left right and centre which should hurt them as if their hearts were being stabbed.

That only winning counts and moral victories are a thing of minnows.

That they should be happy with moral victories if they truly believe they are on the level of zimbabwe or Afghanistan.

I'd rather that the players slap their own faces after every loss rather than finding solace in the absolutely useless illusion of "putting up a fight".

ONLY WINNING COUNTS. NOTHING ELSE.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

I disagree completely because this approach has failed. Pakistani fans and management have been doing this since last 10 years now. Where are the results? How many decades more are needed before this "we gotta start somewhere" part ends? Players keep changing but mindset remains same. The "we put in a good fight" argument has become a coping mechanism for all of us after all defeats (which is now more often than not). It is better to tell the players as it is.

That they are losing games left right and centre which should hurt them as if their hearts were being stabbed.

That only winning counts and moral victories are a thing of minnows.

That they should be happy with moral victories if they truly believe they are on the level of zimbabwe or Afghanistan.

I'd rather that the players slap their own faces after every loss rather than finding solace in the absolutely useless illusion of "putting up a fight".

ONLY WINNING COUNTS. NOTHING ELSE.

Again, if you want to choose to live in a fantasy world then my guest, otherwise, go ahead and turn Shaheen Shah into Wasim Akram, Abbas into Waqar Yonus, Naseem into Shoaib Akhtar, Yasir into Mushtaq, Shaan into Saeed Anwar, Abid into Amir Sohail, Azhar into Inzi, Harris into Yonus, Faheem into Razzaq. And make sure you do it all overnight. And boom! you will probably start seeing some victories.
Otherwise, keep dreaming about "victories that count".

However, if you want to be more honest to yourself then,
You will probably need to come down to earth and have a realistic approach from this team. It's a very low tier test team. Accept that to start off with.

You sow a seed of lemon and claim that only harvesting apples from this tree counts then good luck.

The other option is, if you want to see victories only, then follow Pakistan vs Zim and Afghanistan and Somlia games, and you will perhaps feel better living in your glass house of fantasies. There will be more victories to witness.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

That they are losing games left right and centre which should hurt them as if their hearts were being stabbed.

It does. You’re not the only one hurt.

 

[Madplayer]

Again, if you want to choose to live in a fantasy world then my guest, otherwise, go ahead and turn Shaheen Shah into Wasim Akram, Abbas into Waqar Yonus, Naseem into Shoaib Akhtar, Yasir into Mushtaq, Shaan into Saeed Anwar, Abid into Amir Sohail, Azhar into Inzi, Harris into Yonus, Faheem into Razzaq. And make sure you do it all overnight. And boom! you will probably start seeing some victories.
Otherwise, keep dreaming about "victories that count".

However, if you want to be more honest to yourself then,
You will probably need to come down to earth and have a realistic approach from this team. It's a very low tier test team. Accept that to start off with.

You sow a seed of lemon and claim that only harvesting apples from this tree counts then good luck.

The other option is, if you want to see victories only, then follow Pakistan vs Zim and Afghanistan and Somlia games, and you will perhaps feel better living in your glass house of fantasies. There will be more victories to witness.

If i wanted to see victories against zimbabwe, i wouldnt have made this thread. Basically what you've said is that Pakistan is a low level team and the minnow mentality of "moral victories" fits well with Pakistan because simply put its a bad team. The second reason you gave was that we cant turn them into a great team overnight. But who talked about doing it overnight? It has been a decade of these pathetic performances masked by "good efforts and fights". A decade at the very least. So there goes that argument. And hence, this mask of "its okay you fought well" needs to be torn down even if we are minnows and it needs to be replaced with "Its not enough. Where is the win?". An attitude shift is needed where nothing less than a win would be acceptable.

 

[Madplayer]

It does. You’re not the only one hurt.
View attachment 105739View attachment 105738

Good. Hope they win the next match now.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

When South Africa lost the third test against Australia in 2014 with 4 over to go, that was something that merits consolation. Graeme Smith came out to bat with a broken arm against Harris, Johnson and Pattinson with Johnson at his quickest. The reason why that should be commended because their winning streak of series had finally ended after 5 years I think. That's when you say I am proud of my team, they have done well for quite a long and it's okay to be knocked down "ONCE A WHILE".

Why it is not good for us is we have been awful for far too long and the spineless performances of our team have only increased since 2017. We have been way too meek and surrender at every possible point. Going down with a fight should be a minimum not the maximum. The people who would be giving laurels to our team now is the root cause why our team is so content with being so poor. Our bar ends where it should be starting. The sooner we get rid of the cornered tigers **, the better. You should be fighting to win every single time not just occasionally. The cornered tigers mentality has only caused more harm to Pak cricket than good.

It is a smack in the face of all the people who are involved in cricket in Pakistan, whether it's the root system or the highest level. Every person present or past who has played a role in punching the team down is to be blamed whether it's the chairman(past and current) or the talent scout or the captain or anyone and everyone.
I hope positive changes are made so we could cultivate a better team and a better system.

On the positive side, Fawad Alam, Rizwan, Shaheen and Fahim's efforts should be commended for punching back and fighting man to man against a very good test side. Otherwise everyone else was a prey hiding for his life.

And everyone who was criticizing Younis Khan for his coaching and his antics of writing on the notebook should note that the fourth inning performance of no. 5 and below had handprints of Younis written all over him. We hadn't drawn a single test batting last since 2016 and that's when MisYou used to play.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

If i wanted to see victories against zimbabwe, i wouldnt have made this thread. Basically what you've said is that Pakistan is a low level team and the minnow mentality of "moral victories" fits well with Pakistan because simply put its a bad team. The second reason you gave was that we cant turn them into a great team overnight. But who talked about doing it overnight? It has been a decade of these pathetic performances masked by "good efforts and fights". A decade at the very least. So there goes that argument. And hence, this mask of "its okay you fought well" needs to be torn down even if we are minnows and it needs to be replaced with "Its not enough. Where is the win?". An attitude shift is needed where nothing less than a win would be acceptable.

Again, do you have a solution?

Or you just look yearn for victories perhaps because you don't understand the concept that "Hope is not a plan"?
Which one is it?

Most of us had realistic expectations before the Test series even began. We all knew that 0-2 was on the cards.
Take a look at the poll that was created after the first innings of NZ, and most of us had a realistic expectations that Pakistan probably won't win.
Many of us even though the game won't even go into the 5th day.

The team put an effort that was above and beyond the expectations. You are entitled to your opinion but IMO, it's ridiculous to not appreciate this effort but rather act like a novice and be there to "count the victories".

I would be a lot more frustrated and disappointed if the game had ended in day three with Pakistan having it's tail betwee it's legs.
We fought hard and we died battling. That counts in my books!

 

[Colorblind Genius]

You said that “an attitude shift is needed”.
It sure does, but how?

And what you don’t seem to (or don’t want to) understand is that change in attitude alone is not enough. Be realistic and acknowledge that we simply LACK IN SKILL AND TALENT.

If this team had superior or better skills then an attitude shift would’ve automatically happened.

Our guys are under confident for a reason! They lack in quality, and an attitude shift (even if that happened) is not enough.