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Rahul Dravid: An all-time great?

Rahul Dravid: An all-time great?

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cricketjoshila

cricketjoshila

ODI Captain
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I hold the opinion that Rahul Dravid is a ATG and almost undisputedly. Normally thats the opinion i have got everywhere, including some PP threads about batsmen.

But on another thread [MENTION=131506]blackanhyellow[/MENTION] says Dravid isnt a ATG, so thought why not have a detailed discussion.
[MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION]
[MENTION=142702]UN talkz[/MENTION]

Can we have a poll?
 
Is the Sun the centre of the Solar System?

Rahul Dravid IS an ATG.

He not only epitomised, but defined batting at #3 in Tests.
 
If Dravid is an ATG so are the following:

Miandad
Sehwag
Allister Cook
Sangakarra

etc...

Yes if you use this standard he is an atg.

But if you are considering a world XI and you cant make an argument of why a certain player should be picked over their competition then imo he shouldnt be an ATG.
 
Certified Bonafide ATG, anyone who thinks otherwise shouldn't be taken seriously
 
If there's a 'cricket fan' who doesn't think Rahul Dravid is an ATG, he's clearly been following the wrong sport. It's like asking if Paolo Maldini is an ATG in football; a man who defined his position on the field/team.
 
Oh man.

How many people here would argue for a spot in a world XI for Dravid?

How can he be an ATG if he is not a candidate for an all time test XI?

Not saying he has to be picked, but would he even be a candidate?

Like I said if Dravid is an ATG, so is Sanga, Cook, Miandad, Sehwag.
 
Dravid is a great player but would be make a 1st or 2nd alltime test xi?

If yes (this is where debate emerges), he's in.

If not, against that criteria, he wouldn't be. That said, some may consider that criteria too stringent.
 
blackanhyellow said:
Oh man.

How many people here would argue for a spot in a world XI for Dravid?

How can he be an ATG if he is not a candidate for an all time test XI?

Not saying he has to be picked, but would he even be a candidate?

Like I said if Dravid is an ATG, so is Sanga, Cook, Miandad, Sehwag.
Click to expand...
"
Not saying he has to be picked, but would he even be a candidate?"
Obviously he will be, one of the best players of swing, worlds best batsman for taking the shine off the new ball(remember he has played most no. of balls in international cricket).
Yes would not be an automatic choice for no. 3 but this is bcoz there are some very good players. Even wasim won't be elected as first choice.
 
blackanhyellow said:
If Dravid is an ATG so are the following:

Miandad
Sehwag
Allister Cook
Sangakarra

etc...

Yes if you use this standard he is an atg.

But if you are considering a world XI and you cant make an argument of why a certain player should be picked over their competition then imo he shouldnt be an ATG.
Click to expand...

Miandad and Sangakkara are ATGs.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
"
Not saying he has to be picked, but would he even be a candidate?"
Obviously he will be, one of the best players of swing, worlds best batsman for taking the shine off the new ball(remember he has played most no. of balls in international cricket).
Yes would not be an automatic choice for no. 3 but this is bcoz there are some very good players. Even wasim won't be elected as first choice.
Click to expand...


Legit candidates are ATGs.
Obviously only a select few are AT X1 candidates.
 
blackanhyellow said:
Oh man.

How many people here would argue for a spot in a world XI for Dravid?

How can he be an ATG if he is not a candidate for an all time test XI?

Not saying he has to be picked, but would he even be a candidate?

Like I said if Dravid is an ATG, so is Sanga, Cook, Miandad, Sehwag.
Click to expand...

Cook and Sehwag are behind G Smith and M Hayden as openers.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
"
Not saying he has to be picked, but would he even be a candidate?"
Obviously he will be, one of the best players of swing, worlds best batsman for taking the shine off the new ball(remember he has played most no. of balls in international cricket).
Yes would not be an automatic choice for no. 3 but this is bcoz there are some very good players. Even wasim won't be elected as first choice.
Click to expand...

Being world class, or being one of the best number 3 of your generation isnt the same thing as all time great.
 
I can make 2 or even 3 all time eleven without mcgrath, wasim, imran, waugh, hadlee etc etc but that won't make them any less than an atg.
 
blackanhyellow said:
Being world class, or being one of the best number 3 of your generation isnt the same thing as all time great.
Click to expand...
I will go on to say that he is amongst the top 3 batsman of swing bowling ever.
A 50+avg and also a 50+ away avg is a sure shot atg stuff.
The best subcontinent batsman in england
 
The sheer name gives you a sense of dependence, calm and a feeling that everything will be all right. He is known as ‘The Wall’ for reasons, he truly deserve. If there was one cricketer ever, whom you could ask to get you out of trouble, it had to be that man - Rahul Dravid.

main-qimg-628597c90ddd89b6a850c3669c3933d6-c.jpg
 
Yes, he is an ATG, he has some of the most breathtaking strokes and is a very good all-round cricketer.
 
Not only an ATG but the man was a batting perfectionist and a genius.

One of the best ever. Even well past his prime he showed the whole world his class against Anderson/Broad at their prime.
 
blackanhyellow said:
If they are so are sehwag, cook, and every other world class batsmen.
Click to expand...

Sanga was a specialist keeper and an ATG batsman.

Miandad was a gun ODI batsman and finisher who won a World Cup with his batting.

Cook was embarrassing in ODIs and Sehwag with an average of 35 was nothing special. Both of them don't even average 50 in tests and 40 in ODIs which should be the minimum for a batsman to be called an ATG.
 
blackanhyellow said:
Sure then Smith and Hayden can be ATGs too, since we are just giving away that title to all world class batsmen.
Click to expand...

Many consider Smith as an ATG and when we consider his captaincy, he is truly an ATG. Same for M Hayden.

Sehwag and Cook aren't. They are world class only. Most Englishman pick KP ahead of Cook who himself is not an ATG.
 
Rahul Dravid is an undisputed ATG of the game. May be 2nd tier of ATGs..Contributed so much for Indian cricket as well as world cricket.
 
The_Odd_One said:
Sanga was a specialist keeper and an ATG batsman.

Miandad was a gun ODI batsman and finisher who won a World Cup with his batting.

Cook was embarrassing in ODIs and Sehwag with an average of 35 was nothing special. Both of them don't even average 50 in tests and 40 in ODIs which should be the minimum for a batsman to be called an ATG.
Click to expand...

Not talking about ODIs. Talking about tests.

Therefore Cook must be an ATG. Sanga is, Sehwag, Miandad, Chanderpaul, Jayawardene, Younis Khan, Clarke, etc...

Apparently being world class in your generation is equal to being an ATG :smith
 
Cook would just avg over 40 if he played in 90s and he is hailed as an ATG here,lol.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Hayden is borderline ATG. Smith is world class though.
Click to expand...

You dont have to agree with me clearly the posters here dont, but you get where I am coming from though right?

Theres ATG, which is the cream of the crop, then there is world class or best in their respective era cricketers.

If we start labeling every world class batsman as an ATG, kind of changes the definition of "all time great"
 
He's the most significant person to represent Team India since Kapil Dev. He was India's best batsman in the period in which it enjoyed most overseas success. Kept wickets and floated around the batting order in ODIs to improve team balance.. case in point being WC 2003. Great at home and overseas, impeccable defense.. sure he had his failures in a couple of countries but by no means he consistently struggled against any particular type of bowling. Bonus points from me for the Multan declaration as well. A definite ATG.
 
cricketjoshila said:
No it is not. There are second tiers ATGs like Waqar Donald Pollock Dravid Sanga steve Waugh etc and they are above the likes of a Hayden or Cook or Laxman or Amla etc.
Click to expand...

To be honest this is the first I am hearing of this term "Second tier".

To me your either world class or your an ATG.

If hypothetically there is a secondary tier, then yes I agree I would put Dravid in that list.
 
blackanhyellow said:
You dont have to agree with me clearly the posters here dont, but you get where I am coming from though right?

Theres ATG, which is the cream of the crop, then there is world class or best in their respective era cricketers.

If we start labeling every world class batsman as an ATG, kind of changes the definition of "all time great"
Click to expand...

World class is not best of your era.

Even ATGs are not equal. There are tiers among them.

Its amazing that you think Waqar was a ATG but Dravid is not.
 
Proactive_ said:
He's the most significant person to represent Team India since Kapil Dev. He was India's best batsman in the period in which it enjoyed most overseas success. Kept wickets and floated around the batting order in ODIs to improve team balance.. case in point being WC 2003. Great at home and overseas, impeccable defense.. sure he had his failures in a couple of countries but by no means he consistently struggled against any particular type of bowling. Bonus points from me for the Multan declaration as well. A definite ATG.
Click to expand...

The taboo question, so brace yourself :yk

RD or SRT?
 
blackanhyellow said:
To be honest this is the first I am hearing of this term "Second tier".

To me your either world class or your an ATG.

If hypothetically there is a secondary tier, then yes I agree I would put Dravid in that list.
Click to expand...

Ofcourse there is a second tier. I named a few of them. They are ATGs but not as good as Tendulkar viv Sobers ponting lara Wasim Marshall Mcgrath Ambrose Lillee Hadlee.

You got the drift?
 
cricketjoshila said:
Ofcourse there is a second tier. I named a few of them. They are ATGs but not as good as Tendulkar viv Sobers ponting lara Wasim Marshall Mcgrath Ambrose Lillee Hadlee.

You got the drift?
Click to expand...

It doesnt make sense to have a greatest of something, then have a second tier of greatest of something. Wouldnt the second tier of the greatest of something be the "second greatest of something"?
 
13000+ Test runs @ over 50. ATG Test batsman. Not even a question about it. IMO would make the top list of all time batsmen, if and when I ever make such a list.

Extremely overrated ODI player, considering the amount of ODI's he played for his country.
 
Proactive_ said:
He's the most significant person to represent Team India since Kapil Dev. He was India's best batsman in the period in which it enjoyed most overseas success. Kept wickets and floated around the batting order in ODIs to improve team balance.. case in point being WC 2003. Great at home and overseas, impeccable defense.. sure he had his failures in a couple of countries but by no means he consistently struggled against any particular type of bowling. Bonus points from me for the Multan declaration as well. A definite ATG.
Click to expand...

Good Post but When u mentioned Multan Declaration and give Bonus Point you clear your intention behind ur post that not to Praise Dravid but to mock Someone
Grow Up
 
What’s with the first tier and second tier ATGs? Why complicate things?
Nerds. :sarf2
 
blackanhyellow said:
It doesnt make sense to have a greatest of something, then have a second tier of greatest of something. Wouldnt the second tier of the greatest of something be the "second greatest of something"?
Click to expand...

ATG means All time great, basically a player who will be considered a great of the game in any era. The greatest will be called GOAT.

Waqar Younis or Rahul Dravid both are 2nd tier ATGs.
 
BA56 said:
13000+ Test runs @ over 50. ATG Test batsman. Not even a question about it. IMO would make the top list of all time batsmen, if and when I ever make such a list.

Extremely overrated ODI player, considering the amount of ODI's he played for his country.
Click to expand...

He was the wkt keeper and no.7

So 10k odi runs as WK @39 is good.
 
MultanKaSultan said:
Good Post but When u mentioned Multan Declaration and give Bonus Point you clear your intention behind ur post that not to Praise Dravid but to mock Someone
Grow Up
Click to expand...

If I have to mock someone.. I'll name them.. straight up. I got nothing to fear. That declaration was all about Dravid's ballsy decision preferring the team cause over individual records.
 
All-time greats(since 1990s):-

Australia:-

Glenn Mcgrath
Shane Warne
Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Matthew Hayden(debatable)

South Africa:-

Dale Steyn
Jacques Kallis
Allan Donald
Shaun Pollock
Graeme Smith(debatable)
AB de Villiers(debatable)

England:-

None
KP(debatable)

New Zealand:-

None

West Indies:-

Brian Lara
Curtly Ambrose
Courtney Walsh(debatable)

India:-

Sachin Tendulkar
Rahul Dravid

Sri Lanka:-

Murali
Sangakkara

Pakistan:-

Wasim
Waqar

Virat Kohli and Steven Smith will go down as top tier ATGs when they call it off.
 
I concede Dravid is a "second tier ATG". Definitely not "first tier ATG".

So much time wasted :bhajji
 
Ab Fan said:
All-time greats(since 1990s):-

Australia:-

Glenn Mcgrath
Shane Warne
Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Matthew Hayden(debatable)

South Africa:-

Dale Steyn
Jacques Kallis
Allan Donald
Shaun Pollock
Graeme Smith(debatable)
AB de Villiers(debatable)

England:-

None
KP(debatable)

New Zealand:-

None

West Indies:-

Brian Lara
Curtly Ambrose
Courtney Walsh(debatable)

India:-

Sachin Tendulkar
Rahul Dravid

Sri Lanka:-

Murali
Sangakkara

Pakistan:-

Wasim
Waqar

Virat Kohli and Steven Smith will go down as top tier ATGs when they call it off.
Click to expand...

Steve Waugh....
 
Nope.

Like someone mentioned here no one considers him for a spot in world XIs. He has legendary knocks to his name and performed superb in many away tours but you don't particularly recall him dominating or bullying a great bowling line up. He grinded his way to the top which does make him the poster boy for all grinders like him who made it there with hard work despite not the natural flair.

He had one great Aussie tour and that was in absence of McGrath, Warne.

He sadly never had a good tour of South Africa. He sucked there if I have to put it bluntly.

He was great in England.

Like Hashim Amla, Ponting he had a good long peak when he was truly among the best in the world. But not much there outside the peak.

The reason Tendulkar and Lara are both rated the best in their era is because they both resurrected their careers from bad runs time and again and were able to dominate the game.

For me, Dravid needed to do a lot better in Aus and RSA.
 
A 2nd tier ATG along with the likes of Waqar, Sanga and Waugh. Even there, I will place him among the weaker ones.
 
Pakpassion tends to overrate Dravid for some reason. If it was Tendulkar or Kohli with his record, no one would excuse their Test struggles in South Africa and Sri Lanka.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
Nope.

Like someone mentioned here no one considers him for a spot in world XIs. He has legendary knocks to his name and performed superb in many away tours but you don't particularly recall him dominating or bullying a great bowling line up. He grinded his way to the top which does make him the poster boy for all grinders like him who made it there with hard work despite not the natural flair.

He had one great Aussie tour and that was in absence of McGrath, Warne.

He sadly never had a good tour of South Africa. He sucked there if I have to put it bluntly.

He was great in England.

Like Hashim Amla, Ponting he had a good long peak when he was truly among the best in the world. But not much there outside the peak.

The reason Tendulkar and Lara are both rated the best in their era is because they both resurrected their careers from bad runs time and again and were able to dominate the game.

For me, Dravid needed to do a lot better in Aus and RSA.
Click to expand...

I think Dravid is very highly respected in Western countries. His performance away from home is what makes people put him in the ATG books. Some of them are:-

2002 tour to England
2003 tour to Australia
2006 tour to West Indies
2011 tour to Australia

But yes against top quality bowling attacks(McGrath, Warne, Steyn, Donald, Pollock, Murali), he didnt do that well except one or two rare knocks.
 
BlackShadow said:
Ponting was a master in both formats. If Dravid was anywhere near as good an ODI player, he too would make the 1st tier ATG list.
Click to expand...

That's why I compared Dravid and Ponting in test format.Dravid is without doubt ATG test batsmen IMO.Those who are ATG in test format are generally rated as ATG batsmen overall(Regardless of Limited overs performance).Dravid was not a bad Limited overs player either.
 
blackanhyellow said:
If Dravid is an ATG so are the following:

Miandad
Sehwag
Allister Cook
Sangakarra

etc...

Yes if you use this standard he is an atg.

But if you are considering a world XI and you cant make an argument of why a certain player should be picked over their competition then imo he shouldnt be an ATG.
Click to expand...

Only Sangakkara is an ATG out of those four imo.
 
blackanhyellow said:
If Dravid is an ATG so are the following:

Miandad
Sehwag
Allister Cook
Sangakarra

etc...

Yes if you use this standard he is an atg.

But if you are considering a world XI and you cant make an argument of why a certain player should be picked over their competition then imo he shouldnt be an ATG.
Click to expand...

All of the above names are recognised by many ex players and pundits as ATGs in the game.
 
Proactive_ said:
He's the most significant person to represent Team India since Kapil Dev. He was India's best batsman in the period in which it enjoyed most overseas success. Kept wickets and floated around the batting order in ODIs to improve team balance.. case in point being WC 2003. Great at home and overseas, impeccable defense.. sure he had his failures in a couple of countries but by no means he consistently struggled against any particular type of bowling. <B>Bonus points from me for the Multan declaration as well.</B>A definite ATG.
Click to expand...

Are bhai bhai bhai :dw
 
Last edited:
SA and Aus are big holes in his CV, had 1 great Test in SA and 1 great series against a depleted Aus bowling attack in 03-04, otherwise he was always rubbish there. Inzy has the same bogey teams as Dravid
 
What's all this rubbish about him not being a good ODI player? He had a very specific role and he fulfilled it brilliantly. His solidity and ability to rotate strike was among the main enabling factors in India becoming an incredibly efficient ODI batting unit that didn't collapse like the 90's. And I feel he get's quite a lot of unfair slack about his strike rate too. In his prime: Just copying this from cricinfo:

Jan 1999 to Dec 2005 210 7134 42.97 71.97 10/ 53

That's an outstanding average, one of the highest in fact in the period, and a very acceptable strike rate too. Just throwing out some career averages of some other players in that period rated as very good ODI players and even match winners in comparison:
Jacques Kallis 70.69
Inzamam-ul-Haq 75.61
Mohammad Yousuf 75.28
Sourav Ganguly 76.00

And this is forgetting that he actually kept wickets for a 3 year period in ODI's at his prime, something that has strongly affected both Sangakkara's and AB's numbers. And add in the fact that he was sensational in World Cups (Averages a ridiculous 61.42) and this should be a complete non-debate.

People forget that Dravid sacrificed a lot of abandon and adventure for the benefit of the team in both Tests and ODI's. This is a man that scored a 50 in 20 odd balls in an ODI once; it's not that he can't bat aggressively, but he chose not to. Only increases my admiration and respect for him. Add in the way that he carried himself, he should be a textbook example of an inspiration to any upcoming Pakistani cricketer. He's the one Indian cricketer that I absolutely admire.
 
Ab Fan said:
His performance away from home is what makes people put him in the ATG books. Some of them are:-

2002 tour to England
2003 tour to Australia
2006 tour to West Indies
2011 tour to Australia

But yes against top quality bowling attacks(McGrath, Warne, Steyn, Donald, Pollock, Murali), he didnt do that well except one or two rare knocks.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? He was awful down under in 2011
 
He was definitely an Indian ATG , and maybe an international one too but in Tier 2 along with Ponting , Pietersen and Kallis.
 
For me he is definitely an ATG due to his largely great Test record

But some people here also put attention on ODIs. If those people are consistent then he isnt an international ATG.

Basically whoever says YK is an ATG then RD should also be an ATG and vice versa
 
Slog said:
For me he is definitely an ATG due to his largely great Test record

But some people here also put attention on ODIs. If those people are consistent then he isnt an international ATG.

Basically whoever says YK is an ATG then RD should also be an ATG and vice versa
Click to expand...

YK was downright garbage in ODIs though. Dravid played a specific role in a pre T20 era in ODIs. He prevented batting collapse around him if top 3got out cheaply. He was not a great ODI batsman but good for his role.

People who miss out on ATG across formats are downright terrible in at least one format (Cook), or don't have much impact overall in any format (Clarke). Some are borderline ATG but not quite there (Amla, KP). I wouldn't pay match attention to strike rate for ODI batsmen pre-2000 debut, it wasn't even discussed that much like it is now.
 
I don't think I have ever seen a more technically sound batsman in my lifetime then Dravid, he was a very scientific cricketer when it came to his cricket IQ and approach to the game. In my eyes he is an ATG, not every one gets into the ATG World XI but that doesn't mean you can't be a great because there are many factors to look at in terms of balance, combination, conditions etc. I thinks he does well in any era.
 
Undoubtedly an ATG, but overrated by Pakistan fans due to the stomach ache that Tendulkar caused them for two decades.
 
freelance_cricketer said:
What are you talking about? He was awful down under in 2011
Click to expand...

I think think you meant England 2011.

West Indies were a minnow so I'm not gonna count that.

So basically 3 great away tours. 1 of them against a depleted Aussie attack.

That's not a lot.

Dravid didn't live up to the expectations on many tours as a great batsman.

I understand his 20 of 80 deliveries kind of knocks were helpful in seeing off the new ball in many occasions but at the end of the day you got a make it count by scoring big.

It was painful seeing Dravid killing momentum at the other end.

A great servant. A great batsman. But never a spectacular batsman. You wouldn't pay to watch Dravid really.


Having said that he has more ATG knocks to his name than Sangakkara and Kallos combined.
 
Who on earth thinks Dravid isn't an all time great? :facepalm:
 
Lol. 24-2.

Btw Younis Khan is not an ATG. He went for fishing when Pakistan played their toughest tours. He played all easier tours. Even the last End and Aus tours, he was dancing in the crease almost entire series except couple of innings.

Dravid has played many great test innings away from home while series was alive, some of the great innings where one he played in NZ in late 90s, one in SA when Donald and Pollock were at peak tho that was a dead rubber, Adelide double century won the test in Aus for the first time in 20 yrs, 270 against Pak in famous 2004 series, so many other great innings including the one at home against Warne and McGrath. Sorry pls don’t put Dravid and Younis in same line. Dravid was comparable with Sachin, some even thought better than Sachin. Younis can no way be compared with Sachin.
 
I don't think he is an ATG.

Sachin is the only ATG batsman India has produced till date.
 
Ab Fan said:
All-time greats(since 1990s):-

Australia:-

Glenn Mcgrath
Shane Warne
Ricky Ponting
Adam Gilchrist
Matthew Hayden(debatable)

South Africa:-

Dale Steyn
Jacques Kallis
Allan Donald
Shaun Pollock
Graeme Smith(debatable)
AB de Villiers(debatable)

England:-

None
KP(debatable)

New Zealand:-

None

West Indies:-

Brian Lara
Curtly Ambrose
Courtney Walsh(debatable)

India:-

Sachin Tendulkar
Rahul Dravid

Sri Lanka:-

Murali
Sangakkara

Pakistan:-

Wasim
Waqar

Virat Kohli and Steven Smith will go down as top tier ATGs when they call it off.
Click to expand...
Richard Hadlee?
 
freelance_cricketer said:
I think think you meant England 2011.

West Indies were a minnow so I'm not gonna count that.

So basically 3 great away tours. 1 of them against a depleted Aussie attack.

That's not a lot.

Dravid didn't live up to the expectations on many tours as a great batsman.

I understand his 20 of 80 deliveries kind of knocks were helpful in seeing off the new ball in many occasions but at the end of the day you got a make it count by scoring big.

It was painful seeing Dravid killing momentum at the other end.

A great servant. A great batsman. But never a spectacular batsman. You wouldn't pay to watch Dravid really.


Having said that he has more ATG knocks to his name than Sangakkara and Kallos combined.
Click to expand...

Fair Enough. How do you rate Younis Khan in tests?

I personally rate him very highly. Consistent, prolific scorer, scores when chips are down and scores big and has done it in all countries.
 
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