Maybe for Pakistanis.
For others, Sachin, Gavasker, kapil, Dravid and Shewag.
Indian greats are laxman, Azharuddin, vengsarkar, vishwanath, Bedi,...
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Rahul Dravid: An all-time great?
- Thread starter cricketjoshila
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Maybe for Pakistanis.
For others, Sachin, Gavasker, kapil, Dravid and Shewag.
Indian greats are laxman, Azharuddin, vengsarkar, vishwanath, Bedi,...
Ab Fan
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Since 90s.
Aman
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Mercurial
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Sorry, forgot Gavaskar.
Sachin and Gavaskar are the two ATG batsmen from India till date.
Bhaijaan
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Yoni ain't no ATG either. Same points as mentioned for Dravid except for of course the non existent ATG knocks. His stats are inflated by his runs on the most lifeless pitches of Pakistan and UAE. He is like a rich man's Cheteshwar Pujara.
Pakistan does not have a single ATG batsman to their name going by the definition of their own online posters.
Dravid is a borderline case given by the sheer size of his achievements across tests and ODIs. His one day achievements are never highlighted but the guy has 10k runs to his name. That counts for something.
The subcontinent combined has produced two ATG batsmen till date I.e., Gavaskar and Tendulkar.
Buffet
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Problem with this argument is that pretty much Dravid's entire career is higher than peak performance by YK in the ODI format. That's a big gap here to put them in the same category in ODI format.
Buffet
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Add another great test against McGrath/Warne in India when Indians were behind in a big way.
Another great tests agaisnt Steyn, Morkel and Ntini in India.
Surely, Dravid's performance took a dip against two best bowling units during his career, but that's expected. He still has 4-5 good knocks.
Bogey team would mean gone missing no matter where the game is played.
Rishta Aunty
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Lol what? Apart from the argument about Dravid, there's absolutely no way that Gavaskar is not an ATG. He'd probably make it as an opener into an all-time XI.
Why Kapil is not an ATG? He has so many memorable performances against Windows and overall in test and Odi. He was no 1 ODI all rounder in 80s, one of the top 4 test allrounders in test during his days. First Asian captain to win the world cup, inspired generation of cricketers. He is one of the reasons why cricket is no 1 sports in India now.
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Lefthanded
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The idea of an all-time XI, even it is democratically tallied, is a ridiculous marker of ATG-ness.
5 batsmen, 1 keeper, 1 all-rounder, 3 seamers and a spinner.
Only 5 batsmen should get that honour?
And how long has Test cricket been around that only 5 people can be all-time great batsmen?
And if we're serious about an all-time great list, how many people are we disqualifying who have played any of us were born? More than XI players have stats that easily exceed that stats of most that people on Pakpassion would pick.
Let me have a go at the top 6: Don, Hobbes, Hutton, Hammond, G. Pollock and Sobers.
Or you could pick your own six and say, ah but these 6 weren't all-time greats.
5 batsmen, 1 keeper, 1 all-rounder, 3 seamers and a spinner.
Only 5 batsmen should get that honour?
And how long has Test cricket been around that only 5 people can be all-time great batsmen?
And if we're serious about an all-time great list, how many people are we disqualifying who have played any of us were born? More than XI players have stats that easily exceed that stats of most that people on Pakpassion would pick.
Let me have a go at the top 6: Don, Hobbes, Hutton, Hammond, G. Pollock and Sobers.
Or you could pick your own six and say, ah but these 6 weren't all-time greats.
blackanhyellow
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No one is saying that.
But to pick an all time XI, you need candidates.
So for every spot in the XI you would have numerous candidates. If a player is in contention for a spot in all time XI he should be an all time great. If the player is a world class player, but you couldn't make an argument for having him as a candidate in an all time XI, then is that player truly an all time great?
But then I found out today that there is something called secondary tier atg lol.
So if such a category exists, Dravid would surely be in it as he may not be top tier like Lara, Viv, Sobers but he was an outstanding player.
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No one from Pak tho. But outside they do. Particularly people who followed his career.
Buffet
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I personally don't think that your criterion is a bad one. I have used that to separate really top players who are in like top 25-30 players in history. You have to be a contender for a spot in All time XI otherwise it's simply not possible to be in top 25-30.
Having said that, ATG tag is subjective and it depends on how strictly you define your criterion. Normally, you have ATG players widely recognized as ATG.
I have seen only in PP that Miandad is some time not considered ATG. Outside of PP, I have rarely seen anyone saying that Miandad was not an ATG player. Clearly, Miandad won't find a spot in all time XI, but it doesn't stop him from being widely regarded as an ATG player. I do consider him an ATG player myself.
What?
Joseph Gomes
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Sehwag is most definitely not considered an ATG outside India, he was terrible outside Asia.
He was India's player of prev century. Found a spot in top 50 of many pundits and ex cricketers all time great players. One of the best all rounders ever played the game. First Asian captain to win the world cup and hero for generation of cricket players in India. You want me to add more?
He finds opener spot of many analysts ATG 2nd or 3rd 11.
IndianFan2018
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Yes Dravid ATG, PPers also agree 31 to 4 voting as of now 
Syed1
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Greatest Indian batsman after Kohli.
Got it. My mistake.
LastManstanding
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As expected few insecure Sachin fans are trying to downplay Dravid's achievement and career. Wonder whether I have seen it before?
Dravid along with Laxman taught India how to win. He was the architect of India's wins when Ganguly took over the captaincy. Dravid averaged over 100 in the 21 matches India won under Ganguly. Whether it was Leeds, Candy, Bulawayo, Adelaide or port of Spain, there was only one constant.
India won 15 Tests abroad during Dravid's career (excluding matches in Bangladesh and Zimbabwe), and in those games he scored 1577 runs at 65.70 - both aggregate and average is higher than Tendulkar's.
He has scored century in all the 10 test playing nations. I don't know whether the stat still holds true or not but till last two years of his career, he was averaging more overseas than at home.
His twin innings at Kingston in 2006 alone puts him in the ATG category.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...ndia-4th-test-india-tour-of-west-indies-2006/
Yes he had slow start to his odi career. Didn't know how to rotate strike and didn't have power game to clear infield. However, the tour to New Zealand in 1998-99, saw a changed Dravid come back into the Indian team and establish himself in both formats. He upped his strike rate, learned to rotate the strike and pierce the gaps better.
From his debut in 1996 till the end of 1998 he played in 65 matches, scoring 1709 runs at a middling average of 31.64 and a below-par strike rate of 63.48.
Since the start of 1999, he played in 274 matches scoring 9056 runs with an average of 41.35 and a strike-rate of 72.84.
If those numbers don't make you a great of the game, I don't know what will.
He might not have the talent and flamboyance of Lara or Tendulkar but he won matches for his country and that's what should matter.
Dravid along with Laxman taught India how to win. He was the architect of India's wins when Ganguly took over the captaincy. Dravid averaged over 100 in the 21 matches India won under Ganguly. Whether it was Leeds, Candy, Bulawayo, Adelaide or port of Spain, there was only one constant.
India won 15 Tests abroad during Dravid's career (excluding matches in Bangladesh and Zimbabwe), and in those games he scored 1577 runs at 65.70 - both aggregate and average is higher than Tendulkar's.
He has scored century in all the 10 test playing nations. I don't know whether the stat still holds true or not but till last two years of his career, he was averaging more overseas than at home.
His twin innings at Kingston in 2006 alone puts him in the ATG category.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...ndia-4th-test-india-tour-of-west-indies-2006/
Yes he had slow start to his odi career. Didn't know how to rotate strike and didn't have power game to clear infield. However, the tour to New Zealand in 1998-99, saw a changed Dravid come back into the Indian team and establish himself in both formats. He upped his strike rate, learned to rotate the strike and pierce the gaps better.
From his debut in 1996 till the end of 1998 he played in 65 matches, scoring 1709 runs at a middling average of 31.64 and a below-par strike rate of 63.48.
Since the start of 1999, he played in 274 matches scoring 9056 runs with an average of 41.35 and a strike-rate of 72.84.
If those numbers don't make you a great of the game, I don't know what will.
He might not have the talent and flamboyance of Lara or Tendulkar but he won matches for his country and that's what should matter.
IndianFan2018
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I am fan of both Sachin and Dravid, can't say only Dravid helped India win matches...so did Sachin
To rate Dravid .. not necessary to ignore the FACT that Sachin too was match winner for India
Even after scoring more than 20 k International runs for India, this is what few desi fans think about
....can't help it 
big_gamer007
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Definite ATG. A tier below ponting, Lara, viv, Sachin but if you consider only top tier as ATG then only 6 batsmen will be ATG..
Dravid for his era was pretty useful in ODI as well, his role was of an anchor and he played it pretty well.. People compare his ODI record with players of today and think he must have been bad but if you watched cricket back then he was a decent player..
Dravid for his era was pretty useful in ODI as well, his role was of an anchor and he played it pretty well.. People compare his ODI record with players of today and think he must have been bad but if you watched cricket back then he was a decent player..
Insecure Sachin fans? This thread was started by a sachin fan and many sachin fans have voted for dravid as an ATG, as far as I can see only one troll (too hungry for attention) is making statements against dravid and just based on that you typed this long post and even insulted sachin fans, it seems to me that you are the insecure one
LastManstanding
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You missed the prefix "few".
Even that is wrong, because I only see one troll, and there was no need to bring sachin fans to make your point, that was very insecure of you.
LastManstanding
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I believe the thread is about Dravid, so bringing his odi and test stats to make my point that he was a match winner for India and an ATG is completely justifiable.
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And I had no problem with that part of your post, but you typed that just because of one troll and you started by name calling sachin fans, if you had typed the same post without the first line then it would have been a lot better
LastManstanding
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What makes you think I am not a Sachin fan? If you aren't an insecure fan ( and believe me there are many in India) I don't know why that statement is bothering you so much.
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What are you going on about? Why are you dragging this? Where did I say wether you are a sachin fan or not? What does this have to do with our conversation? I simply raised an objection to your name calling of sachin fans for no reason, there was no need to mention sachin fans in this thread, you called a "few" sachin fans insecure while displaying your own insecurity.
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His statistics aren't ATG level.
barah_admi
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I think Ponting did that BUT Dravid is certainly an ATG test batsman, no doubt about it. His ODI batting however left a lot to be desired, much like Younis.
Adijazz1706
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Dravid sucks in Aus SA and SL so no ATG tag for him unfortunately. Dravid vs YK is a better comparison than YK vs Sachin which is going on in the other thread
soso_killer
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First and foremost Steve Waugh is a first tier great, no ifs and buts. Australia haven't produced men since.
Not sure what to make of Dravid really, but what I do know is that I definitely rate him above Sanga. Sanga is not anywhere near great IMO, let's not abuse the word. You can't have zero impact on the game and get away with it. I can't remember one series away where he left a blue print.
Not sure what to make of Dravid really, but what I do know is that I definitely rate him above Sanga. Sanga is not anywhere near great IMO, let's not abuse the word. You can't have zero impact on the game and get away with it. I can't remember one series away where he left a blue print.
soso_killer
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I rate YK above Sangakkara.
Only the most blinkered Dravid Fan will consider him a ODI ATG.
Varun
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Dravid scored 10,000 ODI runs and never once did Indian fans complain about his SR as Pakistani fans have done with Younis. He was apt for the era he played in, and also captained and kept wickets for a while.
The ODI calibre is what makes the likes of Dravid and Sangakkara better than the likes of Cook - who are below par in the one format they're good at, are woeful in ODIs, and don't play T20s at all.
Won us a match in Australia which your team has not done since... let me check.....1995. That's almost 25 years.
Adijazz1706
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Not his fault, how many 4-5 test series did Sanga play away? Probably 0. Most were 2 match series with a few having 3 matches. If Sachin couldn't get 500 in any 5 match series u can't expect Sanga to get 300 in 3 matches
cricketjoshila
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How many series did Sanga complete in Aus?
sensible-indian-fan
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Dravid is an ATG.
Hilarious to see any arguments otherwise.
Played two knocks that turned a series on its head.
2001 and 2004.
Plus was the architect of so many wins.
Hilarious to see any arguments otherwise.
Played two knocks that turned a series on its head.
2001 and 2004.
Plus was the architect of so many wins.
Chrish
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Dravid’s godly series in England facing broad and Anderson in their pomp alone makes him worthy of consideration.
Adijazz1706
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01 was Laxman, Dravid was support cast, 04 Test was against Gillespie, Brad Williams, Bichel and McGill, lollypop Test attack
hadi123
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Yes, in Tests. Just such a great person as well as player, coming from a Pakistani 
sensible-indian-fan
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worthy response.As if such knocks are played by others even once in their career.
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Hitman
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No it wasn't. It was a horrendously scratchy knock, much like Sachin's knock in the SF at the 2011 WC. He was also dropped on 10 at the slips. His best knock against Australia was his 180 odd at Kolkata against a full strength Aussie attack. Beautiful innings, and just as vital as Laxman's knock in the same innings innings keeping in mind the context of the game.
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Cuts_and_cuts_hard
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How is this even a question haha
Great away tours:
1997 vs SA
1997 vs WI
2002 vs Eng
2003 vs Aus
2002 vs NZ on some of the toughest greentops ever vs peak Bond
2006 vs WI
2011 vs Eng
2003 Aus attack was depleted, agree. But in they still had Gillespie and Macgill who were high quality bowlers. Rlative to other bowling attacks at the time, it was still a good bowling lineup.
And no, 2006 WI were NOT a minnow. They were a mediocre team , yes. But Jerome Taylor, while inconsistent, was about as dangerous as anyone when he got a pitch to his liking. And the pitch in the Jamaica test was one of the worst I have ever seen. No one else could have scored those 2 fifties like Dravid did on that wicket.
Great away tours:
1997 vs SA
1997 vs WI
2002 vs Eng
2003 vs Aus
2002 vs NZ on some of the toughest greentops ever vs peak Bond
2006 vs WI
2011 vs Eng
2003 Aus attack was depleted, agree. But in they still had Gillespie and Macgill who were high quality bowlers. Rlative to other bowling attacks at the time, it was still a good bowling lineup.
And no, 2006 WI were NOT a minnow. They were a mediocre team , yes. But Jerome Taylor, while inconsistent, was about as dangerous as anyone when he got a pitch to his liking. And the pitch in the Jamaica test was one of the worst I have ever seen. No one else could have scored those 2 fifties like Dravid did on that wicket.
soso_killer
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No man, that's an excuse. Over a 13 year period (Jan 2000- Dec 2013) Sri Lanka played 12 fewer Tests India and SA. Played 20 odd more than Pakistan. A much more unstable country losing it's best players for various reasons, yet YK had more impact on the game.
All well and good bashing Zimbabwe and Bangladesh but that doesn't make anyone great.
AssassinatedDevil
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I thought that it's common knowledge amongst cricket fans that Dravid is an ATG. Must've been wrong.
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Ab Fan
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Agreed. Conditions in 2006 WI were really tough for batsmen and so were conditions in NZ 2002 both of which Dravid was brilliant enough.
barah_admi
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See the post below mine....
HuzaifaE
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Next thread: "was Wasim Akram good at cricket?"
soso_killer
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Dravid didn't have a great tour to SA, never did. Classic case of misleading stats, none of the Indian bats did. SA won the first two Tests by 280+ runs. You don't lose by such margins when one of your best players is having a great tour. He scored a ton and an 80 in the third Test. Failed in 4 other innings.
This is almost similar to Tendulkar in SA, he'd fail in each tour and register a 130+ somewhere. Difference between the two is that Dravid did it once.
That's why I have always been of the opinion that both SRT and Dravid were big let downs for that side. That team should have done way better away from home.
jeeteshssaxena
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Indian bowling lineup is responsible for that team not winning overseas.
Our batters have always done well, except some tours.
He might have scored the runs but will he make it to any conversation on picking an ATG 11 in odi's, whether he is selected or not he will always be in conversation for no. 3 spot in test matches for a GOAT 11. That for me is the standard that needs to be met to be considered ATG. And dravid does not meet that standard.
Ab Fan
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Dravid has an under par record in SA quite like Smith in India. However, Dravid has been highly responsible for India winning series in Pakistan(270 in series decider) and also went on to drew a series in Australia(which is in itself a big achievement for an Asian team). He also has been the standout performer in the series drawn in England 2002 and won the series in WI in 2006 where conditions were really tough for batting.
If this much of series defining performances aren't enough, then we can look further to England 2011 in extremely swinging conditions where he looked at a different level to any other Indian batsmen and smashed four hundreds in that series. He remained unbeaten in quite a few innings. So, we cant even say that his runs didnt helped them won any match or series.
soso_killer
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Since when is beating the Windies an achievement?
Like I stated before that Australian side was depleted.
Ab Fan
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Defeating WI in 2006 was as tough for an Asian side as defeating Bangladesh is now for a non Asian side. We have seen how England and Australia had hard time in their last series vs Bangladesh. In 2006 series, conditions were very tough to bat on and that is what makes that batting performance special.
Australian side was depleted. So what? South Africa started winning series after series against Australia only after McGrath and Warne were retired. Cook won England the series in Australia 2010 against one of Australia's weakest bowling attack too. No one won against that Australia which had McGrath and Warne both, let alone an Asian side.
soso_killer
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Can't lose two consecutive matches by 300 runs including being bowled out for 60 and blame the bowlers, that doesn't fly. Yes Indian bowlers let the team down from time to time, but so did the Indian bats. Especially the likes of Tendulkar and Dravid. How do you expect to win away when your two best batsmen turn up for one match or not turn up at all in a three plus match series?
Our bowlers have let us down to, that didn't stop SA performing and winning away. Great players always find a way to win against adversity. This is where we've lacked ourselves in WC's. I watch that ODI team time and again, can't help but feel like giving up on life. Must have been the same for Indian fans as well. To watch your best players not turning up and making waves away from home against the best teams is disappointing for me.
soso_killer
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Australia started beating us when we weren't great either. Evens out really.
Besides India toured when those guys retired and didn't do great as well.
I'm sorry but if a team consisting of Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly, Sehwag beating the Windies away is considered an achievement then I see no point in having this conversation.
You mention England and Australia struggling in Bangladesh, but that India side is way superior to the current teams you've mentioned. That team wasn't far of from being great. The England of 2009-20012 would walk with the current Bangladesh side. South Africa of 2007-2014 would walk all over the current Bangladesh side. And no, that wouldn't be considered an achievement.
These are the two teams India should be measuring themselves, not the current shells that Australia and England are. Why sell are very good team short to suit a narrative? That Indian side was a bloody good team, no amount of excuses will change that. As such they should have achieved more.
Ab Fan
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The win against WI wasnt a great achievement obviously. I was pointing out from a batsmen( Dravid) perspective and this is why I mentioned given the conditions were so tough to bat on, that performance by Dravid, not Indian team, was special.
I did mentioned you about win in Pakistan against a very good Pakistan side in 2005 and series draw in England 2002 and Australia 2003. All these series had some major performances by Rahul Dravid.
As for India's overall performance, apart from above mentioned performances, won a series in England in 2007. Against a strong South African batting lineup in 2011, drew a series in SA with standout performance by SRT. India also performed really well in Australia 2007 but due to some ridiculous umpiring lost a won match in Sydney. Somewhere around 2008-09 also won one series in NZ. India between 2007-2010 was also a team tough to beat.
India also won the series against that ATG Australian side in 2001 tour who smashed everyone out there home and away both.
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Ab Fan
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To illustrate clearly, India between 2007-2010:-
1)Won a series in England 2007
2)Won a series in New Zealand 2008
3)Lost a series in Australia 2007 which should have been won if not for Sydney test
4) Drew a series in South Africa 2010 against an ATG South African team(a team which had KSSAA).
This is excellent performance by an Asian side perspective in non Asian countries.
1)Won a series in England 2007
2)Won a series in New Zealand 2008
3)Lost a series in Australia 2007 which should have been won if not for Sydney test
4) Drew a series in South Africa 2010 against an ATG South African team(a team which had KSSAA).
This is excellent performance by an Asian side perspective in non Asian countries.
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soso_killer
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A Pakistan series can be included, not the Windies. Else we might as well include YK double ton against Zimbabwe as well, that was a clutch knock under the circumstances irrespective of the opposition.
But we aren't talking about JP Dumminy or a Cullinan. We're talking about two very good players. So no, the Windies series counts for nothing. We get mocked all the time for beating.
The Indian team winning sporadically is Testament to how inconsistent everyone was, including the batsmen. As much as I admire Tendulkar gutsing it out with Steyn, that remains our weakest attack since readmission. It's the only tour Tendulkar showed consistency, but credit where it's due.
That team should have done way more away, the batsmen needed to show spine. I am completely against the notion that India didn't have the tools or personnel to win away, I take exception to that. Anyway I digress, don't want to hijack this thread.
Dravid was a quality player else we wouldn't be having this conversation. He is definitely ahead of Sangakkara, way ahead in my book. But if I was picking a team, would I choose a Dravid or the versatile Amla? Amla is not even considered a great.
Cuts_and_cuts_hard
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We should. I donot like it when great knocks against supposed weak teams are discounted. Those games have to be won and players desrve huge credit for coming up clutch in them.
Howevr, the reason I give Dravid xtra points for the 2006 series is because the Jamaica test was one of the best prformances on an almost unplayable pitch I have ever seen. Incredible skill to bat on s surface like that.
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2009.
Ab Fan
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WI and Zim is a very poor analogy. WI was a level ahead always. It is still okay if you exclude WI. But even then, I have mentioned three more series where Dravid played a pivotal role away from home and won/drew the series- Pakistan, Australia, England and this is when we exclude his brilliance in England in 2011.
From an Indian team on a whole point of view, India's performance between 2007-2010 was actually better than England between 2009-2012.
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Rishta Aunty
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Gotta say, I'm surprised this thread has even gone on for so long. Anyone doubting Dravid's place as an ATG, doesn't understand classical batsmanship.
sshakir411
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To me Rahul was better to watch than Sachin, Laxman, and Ganguly. He also seemed mentally strong and played some really gritty innings. But he was a tier below Sachin...actually all Indian batsmen were. If I had to rank based on my preference it would be Sachin > Rahul > Sehwag > Ganguly > Laxman.
There's this one innings I remember of Dravid that I watched as a kid. 50 off 22 balls against New Zealand in 2003...was a great innings.
There's this one innings I remember of Dravid that I watched as a kid. 50 off 22 balls against New Zealand in 2003...was a great innings.
Bhaijaan
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Happy birthday to a very special person.
The greatest thing a cricketer or any sports person could achieve is not just great records but the genuine love and respect of the fans.
There is a no comparison.
Thank you for serving our nation dear Rahuk Dravid.
You were part of my childhood and many 90s kids. We were all a lucky bunch to have grown up watching a remarkable cricketer like you.
Your gap will never be filled. We miss you.
Felt nostalgic seeing some of the tributes pouring in for Dravid today.
The greatest thing a cricketer or any sports person could achieve is not just great records but the genuine love and respect of the fans.
There is a no comparison.
Thank you for serving our nation dear Rahuk Dravid.
You were part of my childhood and many 90s kids. We were all a lucky bunch to have grown up watching a remarkable cricketer like you.
Your gap will never be filled. We miss you.
Felt nostalgic seeing some of the tributes pouring in for Dravid today.
Bhaijaan
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Many thanks for fans of all nations who voted on this poll. Dravid deserves all the respect.
Hasan123
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Dravid is an all time great. Not even a question.
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