Ravi Ashwin and Sanjay Manjrekar face off on Twitter

[King_Kohli]

In the news again Majrekar!

==

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Also Chaari, my heart aches to see simple, straightforward, cricketing assessments kick up a fuss these days&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834; <a href="https://t.co/7r7SNqpQq3">https://t.co/7r7SNqpQq3</a></p>— Sanjay Manjrekar (@sanjaymanjrekar) <a href="https://twitter.com/sanjaymanjrekar/status/1402120895418617859?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 8, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Former India cricketer Sanjay Manjrekar's comment that he doesn't consider off-spinner Ravichandran Ashwin as an all-time great was a "simple, straightforward" cricketing assessment that had created "a fuss", Manjrekar said on Tuesday. The cricketer-turned-commentator quote-tweeted a response by Ashwin to one of his tweets and wrote: "... my heart aches to see simple, straightforward, cricketing assessments kick up a fuss these days". After Manjrekar clarified the comments he made on a YouTube show regarding why he doesn't consider Ashwin an all-time great with a tweet on Sunday, Ashwin quote-tweeted Manjrekar's tweet with a meme from a Tamil film Aparachith.

"'All-time great' is the highest praise & acknowledgement given to a cricketer. Cricketers like Don Bradman, Sobers, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Virat etc are all time greats in my book. With due respect, Ashwin not quite there as an all-time great yet," Manjrekar had tweeted on Sunday.

The tweet came after Manjrekar told a website in a YouTube show he has "a few problems" with Ashwin being termed an all-time great.

"Ravichandran Ashwin, with due respect to him, I think he's a great guy at what he does, but when people start talking about him as one of the all-time greats, I have a few problems with that," Manjrekar had said.

"One basic problem that I have with Ashwin is that when you look at SENA (South Africa, England, New Zealand and Australia), the countries for batsmen and bowlers, places where Indians find themselves outside their comfort zone - it's amazing that he doesn't have a single five-wicket haul. Not one five-wicket haul in all these countries.

https://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/san...-tamil-meme-on-all-time-great-comment-2458964

 

[King_Kohli]

‘apdi solladha da chaari, manasellam valikirdhu’ (don’t say that, my heart is paining).

 

[adarsh_bang]

Why do you think he's not? At the very least, there is no earth shattering difference between the two.

In addition on a subjective level, I find Jadeja more wily and potent.

Look you're entitled to that opinion but when we're watching a test match, and things aren't going our way, would you feel more confident when Ash is thrown the ball or Jadeja?

His wickets, are the equivalent of soft runs.

He picked wickets when everyone was picking wickets. On turning tracks.
His batting is clutch, i agree, but his bowling in test match cricket isn't clutch.
It is consistent, yes. But it rarely turns the result of a game on it's head.

That, is Ashwin, certainly not Jadeja.

 

[cricketjoshila]

This is what stats does to you.

It confuses you.

Remove Ash's 2011 and 2015 Aus tours on the deadest of pitches and he has averaged 30s in every SENA series except SA 2013 (1 game - 0 wickets).

Post 2015, his numbers are sub 30 in SENA with very good WPM.

By the way, don't disagree with Sanjay technically.

His main reasoning is pretty weak tho. The kind you see from casual viewers and not an analyst.

Manju is a bitter man. His analysis is poor and he thinks he is better than the rest.

His comments on SRT, Kohli, Jadeja etc show how poor his analysis is.

 

[Mesozoic]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">‘All- time great’ is the highest praise & acknowledgement given to a cricketer. Cricketers like Don Bradman, Sobers, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Virat etc are all time greats in my book. With due respect, Ashwin not quite there as an all-time great yet. &#55357;&#56911;<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AllTimeGreatExplained?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AllTimeGreatExplained</a>&#55357;&#56841;</p>&m



dash; Sanjay Manjrekar (@sanjaymanjrekar) <a href="https://twitter.com/sanjaymanjrekar/status/1401524687704760322?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 6, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Shameless individual...

Still remember him go on about how Kohli doesn't belong to the Test level after we lost at the SCG in 2012. Then Kohli went onto top score for us in Perth and score a hundred in Adelaide.

Even Jadeja owned him a few years back after his "bits and pieces" comment.

 

[MP2011]

Shameless individual...

Still remember him go on about how Kohli doesn't belong to the Test level after we lost at the SCG in 2012. Then Kohli went onto top score for us in Perth and score a hundred in Adelaide.

Even Jadeja owned him a few years back after his "bits and pieces" comment.

Who even takes him seriously?

 

[Ab Fan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">‘All- time great’ is the highest praise & acknowledgement given to a cricketer. Cricketers like Don Bradman, Sobers, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Virat etc are all time greats in my book. With due respect, Ashwin not quite there as an all-time great yet. ��<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AllTimeGreatExplained?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AllTimeGreatExplained</a>��</p>— Sanjay Manjrekar (@sanjaymanjrekar) <a href="https://twitter.com/sanjaymanjrekar/status/1401524687704760322?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 6, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Manjrekar also posted 10 random names who he thinks belongs to all-time great list. Anderson was one of them in that. So, he probably doesn't feel Anderson is condition oriented bowler but Ashwin is.

 

[Mahee]

Both Sanjay and Ashwin are morons of highest order...the former one wants to trigger people and the latter one easily gets triggered...this is not the first time Ashwin behaved like this...he is definitely not an ATG, because of his inferior overseas record.

 

[BaankeJi]

Both Sanjay and Ashwin are morons of highest order...the former one wants to trigger people and the latter one easily gets triggered...this is not the first time Ashwin behaved like this...he is definitely not an ATG, because of his inferior overseas record.

Ashwin didn't get triggered this time. He laughed it off.

 

[Varun]

Shameless individual...

Still remember him go on about how Kohli doesn't belong to the Test level after we lost at the SCG in 2012. Then Kohli went onto top score for us in Perth and score a hundred in Adelaide.

Even Jadeja owned him a few years back after his "bits and pieces" comment.

Let's be real, Kohli was a nobody at test level as of Jan 2012 and if you remember the events of the time, and the 2011 that was for our test team, that opinion was quite valid.

However, Manjrekar constantly picking fights with everybody from Tendulkar to Jadeja and everyone in between speaks volumes about him.

 

[Proactive_]

Manjrekar is right. I don't see why there is any need of controversy in this.

In his 10 year International career, there has not been a single test match in SENA in which Ashwin has been the standout bowler, never has he run through the opposition batting line up in alien/unfavorable conditions like Warne and Murali or even the likes of other Asian spinners like Kumble, Harbhajan Chandra, Bedi, Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed etc did. This is exhibited in his mediocre statistics in the aforementioned countries where averages close to 40 with 0 five wicket hauls (a widely accepted benchmark of a dominant performance).

This doesn't mean that Ashwin isn't a good bowler. He is arguably the biggest home track bully in the history of cricket (and I mean it positively here). He has made sure that India is unbeatable in home conditions and is a handy batsman to boot.

But ATG? You got to be joking at this point.

 

[Ab Fan]

Manjrekar is right. I don't see why there is any need of controversy in this.

In his 10 year International career, there has not been a single test match in SENA in which Ashwin has been the standout bowler, never has he run through the opposition batting line up in alien/unfavorable conditions like Warne and Murali or even the likes of other Asian spinners like Kumble, Harbhajan Chandra, Bedi, Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed etc did. This is exhibited in his mediocre statistics in the aforementioned countries where averages close to 40 with 0 five wicket hauls (a widely accepted benchmark of a dominant performance).

This doesn't mean that Ashwin isn't a good bowler. He is arguably the biggest home track bully in the history of cricket (and I mean it positively here). He has made sure that India is unbeatable in home conditions and is a handy batsman to boot.

But ATG? You got to be joking at this point.

The discussion in which Manjarekar made his comment was about top 5 bowlers in the world. In that, he said that he has problems with people who rate Ashwin as all-time greats because his SENA performance isn't great.

However, in the same discussion, he rated Anderson as no.2 and calls him an all-time great even though he too is a condition dependent bowler. The problem here is not that he is just forming an opinion, he is an analyst and should have come with something more materialistic than just exposing his hypocrisy.

Honestly to begin with, he shouldn't have called out for Ashwin's greatness like this because if we are talking about last few years sample, his record is good even in SENA.

 

[Proactive_]

The discussion in which Manjarekar made his comment was about top 5 bowlers in the world. In that, he said that he has problems with people who rate Ashwin as all-time greats because his SENA performance isn't great.

However, in the same discussion, he rated Anderson as no.2 and calls him an all-time great even though he too is a condition dependent bowler. The problem here is not that he is just forming an opinion, he is an analyst and should have come with something more materialistic than just exposing his hypocrisy.

Honestly to begin with, he shouldn't have called out for Ashwin's greatness like this because if we are talking about last few years sample, his record is good even in SENA.

Let's be honest here, Anderson in Asia has easily been a far better bowler than Ashwin in SENA. He averages 27 in Asia for starters. Secondly, a 38 year old Anderson in Indian heat just out bowled the the likes of Bumrah and Ishant in the recently concluded series. Thirdly, he has been instrumental in a lot of English wins in Asia - Mumbai 2006, Kolkata 2012, Chennai 2021, Galle 2021 immediately come to mind. Instances where his performances came in clutch to seal the deal.

In all, Anderson might not have perfectly balanced records but he ticks far more boxes than Ashwin in unfavorable conditions which make a strong case for him to be in the discussion. Ashwin hasn't demonstrated anything of this sort in his 10 year career overseas to warrant that.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Manjrekar is right. I don't see why there is any need of controversy in this.

In his 10 year International career, there has not been a single test match in SENA in which Ashwin has been the standout bowler, never has he run through the opposition batting line up in alien/unfavorable conditions like Warne and Murali or even the likes of other Asian spinners like Kumble, Harbhajan Chandra, Bedi, Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed etc did. This is exhibited in his mediocre statistics in the aforementioned countries where averages close to 40 with 0 five wicket hauls (a widely accepted benchmark of a dominant performance).

This doesn't mean that Ashwin isn't a good bowler. He is arguably the biggest home track bully in the history of cricket (and I mean it positively here). He has made sure that India is unbeatable in home conditions and is a handy batsman to boot.

But ATG? You got to be joking at this point.

I don't wanna get into another discussion of Ashwin to be honest.

yes, Ashwin is not an ATG bowler.

But stop this intellectual dishonesty. lol.

In his 10 year International career, there has not been a single test match in SENA in which Ashwin has been the standout bowler,

Wrong.

Adelaide 2018, Edgbaston 2018, Melbourne 2020, Adelaide 2020 (before our batting got derailed).....

I am excluding Centurion 2018 where India was in a dominant position JUST due to Ashwin & Kohli...for the sole reaason Ashwin didn't do well in 2nd innings.

never has he run through the opposition batting line up in alien/unfavorable conditions like Warne and Murali

Melbourne 2020.

The spell that turned India's campaign around.

Wade (who was scoring fast), Smith, Labuschane (only God knows how that missed the stumps lol), Paine.

even the likes of other Asian spinners like Kumble, Harbhajan Chandra, Bedi, Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed etc did

Just naming all names means nothiing LOL.

Ashwin's overall 40 SENA average is due to 2 tours in Aus where he bowled with hopeless bowlers and on dead pitches.

Take that out, and his SENA average is in 30s. Heck, post 2015, his SENA average is sub 30.

By the way, did you know how those bowlers performed in Aus when it was hard?

Kumble - 67 average in 90s bowling with hopeless pacers
Bhajji - 73 average in Aus bowling in 2000s
Murali - 70 odd average
Swann - Got destroyed in 2013...but even in 2011, he averaged 39 (but did great to support the pace attack)

This is exhibited in his mediocre statistics in the aforementioned countries where averages close to 40 with 0 five wicket hauls (a widely accepted benchmark of a dominant performance).

The stats in SENA are sub 30 since 2015 and this INCLUDES playing with injury.

If you exclude the games where he was injured in SENA, he is averaging 20-25 in SENA this cycle LOL.

Doesn't make him ATG but repeating something 10,000 times doesn't make it true.

Accept you got it wrong and move on.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Manju is a bitter man. His analysis is poor and he thinks he is better than the rest.

His comments on SRT, Kohli, Jadeja etc show how poor his analysis is.

He is a weirdo imho.

I like people who call out spade a spade...but Manjrekar in the name of doing it completely messes it up.

 

[AMSS]

Manju is a complex ridden troll but Ashwin's twitter is uber-cringe. Not someone in control of his emotions. A match made in heaven.

 

[Proactive_]

I don't wanna get into another discussion of Ashwin to be honest.

yes, Ashwin is not an ATG bowler.

Glad to see we're starting on the right note here.

Adelaide 2018, Edgbaston 2018, Melbourne 2020, Adelaide 2020 (before our batting got derailed).....

Adelaide 2018 - Bumrah
Edgbaston 2018 - Ishant (But I'll admit this one is arguable)
Melbourne 2020 - Easily Bumrah
Adelaide 2020 - Not a standout performance, Bumrah and Umesh were arguably just as good

Again, even if you want to believe that these performances were "definitively" standout performances then it further underlines that Ashwin by all means hasn't had any since all of these consist of cute 2/3/4 wicket hauls; nothing of the ilk of a rampaging 6/7 wicket haul that changes the face of the game single handedly like ATGs do.

Just naming all names means nothiing LOL.

Ashwin's overall 40 SENA average is due to 2 tours in Aus where he bowled with hopeless bowlers and on dead pitches.

You are free to check their best performances in SENA, each one of them has had at least a couple of proper standout performances where they were unequivocally the best bowlers of the match. Ashwin hasn't had any. Even the ones you mention are very very arguable.

Take that out, and his SENA average is in 30s. Heck, post 2015, his SENA average is sub 30.

By the way, did you know how those bowlers performed in Aus when it was hard?

Kumble - 67 average in 90s bowling with hopeless pacers
Bhajji - 73 average in Aus bowling in 2000s
Murali - 70 odd average
Swann - Got destroyed in 2013...but even in 2011, he averaged 39 (but did great to support the pace attack)

All these bowlers faced far better Australian batting line ups - a little detail you forgot to add in. I'm sure there's a difference between facing the challenge of Hayden and Langer opening the batting than Joe Burns and Matthew Wade doing the same lol.

The stats in SENA are sub 30 since 2015 and this INCLUDES playing with injury.

If you exclude the games where he was injured in SENA, he is averaging 20-25 in SENA this cycle LOL.

Doesn't make him ATG but repeating something 10,000 times doesn't make it true.

Accept you got it wrong and move on.

Who would have thought that taking out of every unfavorable situation would make the performances seem good? I wonder why we don't do it for other ATGs, oh that's right.. because we don't need to.

Again, I reiterate that I'm not trying to undermine Ashwin here. He definitely a very useful all round player overseas. Hell I would argue that he is much closer to being an ATG all rounder than being an ATG bowler.
But purely on his bowling exploits over the course of a very lengthy sample set (>10 years) he easily comes up short in comparison to the ATGs. The best compliment I can pay him as a bowler is that he is the Mahela Jayawardene of spin bowling - untouchable in home conditions, serviceable at best overseas. Overall a highly regarded name in the sport.

 

[AMSS]

This SENA MENA nonsense gets too far too often.

A player from the subcontinent faces far superior teams in this so-called SENA region. The same is not true for someone like Anderson who mostly bowl to one strong batting line-up in the subcontinent. SL and Pak have been well below par as batting units the past 10-15 years. So it's not an equal and reciprocal comparison unless one is too dense or a troll.

Second, quicks from SENA countries can still get benefit from conditions in subcontinent. It swings in the mornings and all day in coastal venues like Mumbai and Colombo. Balls get scuffed and aid reverse.

OTOH, spinners in SENA countries are completely dependent on pitches. Unlike the quicks, they don't get help from moisture in air or reverse. So once again, it's not an apples to apples comparison at all.

 

[street cricketer]

Adelaide 2018 - Bumrah
Edgbaston 2018 - Ishant (But I'll admit this one is arguable)
Melbourne 2020 - Easily Bumrah
Adelaide 2020 - Not a standout performance, Bumrah and Umesh were arguably just as good

Adelaide 2018 - 1st dig: Ashwin runs through the top order in quick succession picking up Harris, Khawaja and Marsh, just before and after lunch, thereby setting up the game. Bumrah picks up Handscomb, Cummins and Starc.

2nd dig: Bumrah picks up Marsh, Paine and Cummins, while Ashwin gets Finch, Khawaja and the most important final wicket when the Lyon-Hazlewood partnership was threatening to engineer an unlikely victory for Australia, while bowling like a machine for 50 overs. Both Ashwin and Bumrah got 6 wickets each but Ashwin clearly had the biggest influence as he dismissed more specialist batsmen (5) compared to Bumrah (3).

Edgbaston 2018 -
Ashwin's wickets in 1st innings - Cook, Stokes, Buttler and Broad.
Ishant in 1st innings - Adil Rashid

Ishant is clearly the star of the 2nd innings as he picks up a 5fer but Ashwin lays down the marker for the 2nd innings by running through the top order while snaring Cook, Root and Jennings. Overall Ashwin clearly the best bowler in the game as he gets the most wickets, and key wickets as well.

Adelaide 2020 -
1st innings: Ashwin gets Smith, Head and Green.
Umesh gets Labuschagne, Cummins and Hazlewood while Bumrah gets the openers in Wade and Burns.

The 2nd innings doesn't matter because of the 36 disasterclass but Ashwin still gets the only wicket - Labuschagne.

Ashwin again with the best bowling performance in the team.

Melbourne 2020 -
This was Ashwin's best performance imo because it resulted in a crucial win in SENA after the 36 humiliation.

On a wicket with decent grass cover, there was a slight moisture underneath the grass cover in the early part of the 1st day and he fully utilised it, setting up the game in the 1st session by dismissing Smith once again, Wade who was going great guns and Paine afterwards. Bumrah dismissed Burns, Head, Starc and Lyon.

2nd dig: Ashwin gets Labuschagne and Hazlewood while Bumrah gets Smith and Cummins.

Bumrah gets one more wicket than Ashwin but it was Ashwin who got more specialist batsmen out and set up the game right from the first session on day 1 after the drubbing in the previous match.

In all of these matches, Ashwin clearly influenced matches the most. True, he didn't get 5fers but then again, it's harder to get 5fers in an attack when nearly all bowlers are equally potent as opposed to being part of an attack where you're the only star bowler or there are just 2 star bowlers.

Ashwin's definitely not yet there as an ATG bowler for me, but it's not like he has been always impotent in SENA. In Australia particularly, barring his first ever tour in 2011, he has matched or outbowled Lyon since then. The numbers might not look great due to dead pitches that has nothing for the spinners, particularly the infamous 2014 series, but he has bowled well in Aus except the 2011 tour and especially after 2015, he has developed into a potent bowler even in SENA conditions. I would rather criticise him for not bowling India to wins in Centurion and Southampton rather than his performances in Australia which have actually been good.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Adelaide 2018 - Bumrah
Edgbaston 2018 - Ishant (But I'll admit this one is arguable)
Melbourne 2020 - Easily Bumrah
Adelaide 2020 - Not a standout performance, Bumrah and Umesh were arguably just as good

Adelaide 2020

Ashwin 5 wickets at an avg of 14
Bumrah 2 wkts at an avg of 40
Umesh 3 wkts at an avg of 30

But yeah Ashwin wasn't the standout bowler.
Also keep in mind that only 12 aussie wickets fell in that match.
Secondly this was a Pink ball test, tailor made conditions for fast bowlers and still Ashwin outperformed them.

Melbourne 2020 - again, suitable conditions for fast bowlers, and Ashwin ended up with similar figures to Bumrah.

Secondly, the way you are comparing fast bowlers performance with spinners tell me that you don't exactly understand how spinners operate. The greatest spin bowler of all time(Shane Warne) averages the same as Shoaib Akhtar in tests with an inferior str rate, so plainly comparing stats of fast bowlers with spinners is naive.

Kumble used to take those big 6fers and 7fers because the fast bowlers in his team were quite incompetent.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Comparing fast bowlers stats with Spinners is not a good idea.
A good fast bowler will average the same as a great spinner which is quite evident by a thousand examples like Warne against Walsh or Akhtar, Kumble against Hoggard etc etc.

 

[Majid Khan]

Agree with Sanjay - let’s face it, cricketers like Bradman, Sobers, Hafeez, Tendulkar or Wasim Akram, Lillee, Warne were all a class above the rest and they were admired by multiple generations of cricket fans and still are today , and you just can’t automatically include anyone in that list because they have achieved X statistical milestone in runs or wickets.

 

[Devadwal]

Agree with Sanjay - let’s face it, cricketers like Bradman, Sobers, Hafeez, Tendulkar or Wasim Akram, Lillee, Warne were all a class above the rest and they were admired by multiple generations of cricket fans and still are today , and you just can’t automatically include anyone in that list because they have achieved X statistical milestone in runs or wickets.

Hafeez?

 

[Ab Fan]

Adelaide 2018 - 1st dig: Ashwin runs through the top order in quick succession picking up Harris, Khawaja and Marsh, just before and after lunch, thereby setting up the game. Bumrah picks up Handscomb, Cummins and Starc.

2nd dig: Bumrah picks up Marsh, Paine and Cummins, while Ashwin gets Finch, Khawaja and the most important final wicket when the Lyon-Hazlewood partnership was threatening to engineer an unlikely victory for Australia, while bowling like a machine for 50 overs. Both Ashwin and Bumrah got 6 wickets each but Ashwin clearly had the biggest influence as he dismissed more specialist batsmen (5) compared to Bumrah (3).

Edgbaston 2018 -
Ashwin's wickets in 1st innings - Cook, Stokes, Buttler and Broad.
Ishant in 1st innings - Adil Rashid

Ishant is clearly the star of the 2nd innings as he picks up a 5fer but Ashwin lays down the marker for the 2nd innings by running through the top order while snaring Cook, Root and Jennings. Overall Ashwin clearly the best bowler in the game as he gets the most wickets, and key wickets as well.

Adelaide 2020 -
1st innings: Ashwin gets Smith, Head and Green.
Umesh gets Labuschagne, Cummins and Hazlewood while Bumrah gets the openers in Wade and Burns.

The 2nd innings doesn't matter because of the 36 disasterclass but Ashwin still gets the only wicket - Labuschagne.

Ashwin again with the best bowling performance in the team.

Melbourne 2020 -
This was Ashwin's best performance imo because it resulted in a crucial win in SENA after the 36 humiliation.

On a wicket with decent grass cover, there was a slight moisture underneath the grass cover in the early part of the 1st day and he fully utilised it, setting up the game in the 1st session by dismissing Smith once again, Wade who was going great guns and Paine afterwards. Bumrah dismissed Burns, Head, Starc and Lyon.

2nd dig: Ashwin gets Labuschagne and Hazlewood while Bumrah gets Smith and Cummins.

Bumrah gets one more wicket than Ashwin but it was Ashwin who got more specialist batsmen out and set up the game right from the first session on day 1 after the drubbing in the previous match.

In all of these matches, Ashwin clearly influenced matches the most. True, he didn't get 5fers but then again, it's harder to get 5fers in an attack when nearly all bowlers are equally potent as opposed to being part of an attack where you're the only star bowler or there are just 2 star bowlers.

Ashwin's definitely not yet there as an ATG bowler for me, but it's not like he has been always impotent in SENA. In Australia particularly, barring his first ever tour in 2011, he has matched or outbowled Lyon since then. The numbers might not look great due to dead pitches that has nothing for the spinners, particularly the infamous 2014 series, but he has bowled well in Aus except the 2011 tour and especially after 2015, he has developed into a potent bowler even in SENA conditions. I would rather criticise him for not bowling India to wins in Centurion and Southampton rather than his performances in Australia which have actually been good.

Great post. Melbourne 2020 is the best Ashwin's performance for me as well. Edgabaston and Adelaide 2020 is up there as well but we didn't won. Adelaide 2018 I will rate below these three because the batting lineup was mediocre.

 

[Majid Khan]

Hafeez?

Ah well spotted, I meant Viv Richards and often mix them up.

 

[silentkiller187]

Manjeraker is right here, ATG status should only be given once a player retires, Ashwin is a brilliant cricketer dont get e wrong but he isnt even the best spinner of his generation at the moment, let alone ATG

 

[Devadwal]

Manjeraker is right here, ATG status should only be given once a player retires, Ashwin is a brilliant cricketer dont get e wrong but he isnt even the best spinner of his generation at the moment, let alone ATG

Who is the best spinner of this generation??

 

[sharmaji]

I see what you did there

Ah well spotted, I meant Viv Richards and often mix them up.

 

[silentkiller187]

Who is the best spinner of this generation??

Ravindra Jadeja

 

[sharmaji]

Two idiots air-punching.

Manjrekar may be right, but he need not have said that. He does these things, pull some players (Sachin, Jadeja, Ashwin) down or prop some players (Kohli, Gavaskar, Imran Khan) up with non-stop praise. He is in general, an insecure, bitter individual who can't get past his own failures as a cricketer.

Ashwin needs to grow up as well. He need not react to every opinion and comment about him. But then he is a product of these times, of a culture shaped by Kohli and Shastri who themselves are loud-mouths.

 

[King_Kohli]

Two idiots air-punching.

Manjrekar may be right, but he need not have said that. He does these things, pull some players (Sachin, Jadeja, Ashwin) down or prop some players (Kohli, Gavaskar, Imran Khan) up with non-stop praise. He is in general, an insecure, bitter individual who can't get past his own failures as a cricketer.

Ashwin needs to grow up as well. He need not react to every opinion and comment about him. But then he is a product of these times, of a culture shaped by Kohli and Shastri who themselves are loud-mouths.

Lol..Kohli never involved/reacted to on Social media.

 

[Proactive_]

Adelaide 2020

Ashwin 5 wickets at an avg of 14
Bumrah 2 wkts at an avg of 40
Umesh 3 wkts at an avg of 30

But yeah Ashwin wasn't the standout bowler.

It's because you're adding the stats of the second innings in which Aus. was chasing 90 odd runs. The game was dead after the 36 all out, a bit like how India raced to chase 50-0 in Ahmedabad (3rd Test) vs England recently even though the previous 3 innings yielded like 350 runs combined. Not a fair reflection of overall performance.

Also keep in mind that only 12 aussie wickets fell in that match.
Secondly this was a Pink ball test, tailor made conditions for fast bowlers and still Ashwin outperformed them.

As seen in the recent test at Ahmedabad, pink ball is in no way a detriment as compared to the red ball for spinners as well, it even might be beneficial:

Graphic suggests pink ball significant factor in low scoring third Test

https://wisden.com/series-stories/i...-significant-factor-in-low-scoring-third-test

Secondly, the way you are comparing fast bowlers performance with spinners tell me that you don't exactly understand how spinners operate. The greatest spin bowler of all time(Shane Warne) averages the same as Shoaib Akhtar in tests with an inferior str rate, so plainly comparing stats of fast bowlers with spinners is naive.

You seem to be confused. I don't see anywhere where I have directly equated the stats of spinners and pacers. I have only made the observation that Ashwin wasn't really the "standout" bowler in the aforementioned tests and the other bowlers also were just as much if not more deserving of the accolade.

Kumble used to take those big 6fers and 7fers because the fast bowlers in his team were quite incompetent.

Kumble also had to bowl much longer spells and return to bowl new spells to well settled batsmen. That's a far bigger challenge than bowling along with a good bowling attack. We all saw Ashwin's performances when he was a part of mediocre attacks overseas and it wasn't pretty in the least.

Kumble bagging 24 wickets at 29 in the 03/04 series against Australia with that Aussie batting line up and flat pitches to boot is an astronomically bigger achievement than whatever Ashwin's best has been overseas in his 10 year+ career.

 

[sharmaji]

Not necessarily on social media, but both he and Shastri have a history of reacting to any criticism and comments/opinions. They just don't stay quiet and let any comment pass by.

Lol..Kohli never involved/reacted to on Social media.

 

[street cricketer]

As seen in the recent test at Ahmedabad, pink ball is in no way a detriment as compared to the red ball for spinners as well, it even might be beneficial:

Graphic suggests pink ball significant factor in low scoring third Test

https://wisden.com/series-stories/i...-significant-factor-in-low-scoring-third-test

Except that this article was based on a test that happened on a bare and bone dry Ahmedabad wicket where Axar Patel's arm balls were literally unplayable.

Surely you aren't extrapolating those stats to pink ball tests that happen elsewhere, not least outside asia which have massively contrasting conditions with pitches that have a good amount of grass cover to keep the pink ball new. And it's reflected in the stats too.

In pink ball tests outside asia, pacers average 24 with the pink ball, in contrast to spinners who average 40.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Always get a feeling that this C grade batsman thought of himself as a gift of god to Indian cricket. One guy also has leaked his conversation with Manjrekar where he was making fun of Jadeja's english.

 

[krikit]

Ashwin is a very conditions dependent bowler compared to the other two good spinners in the world Jadeja and Lyon. While he is better at exploiting conditions than those two, on unhelpful pitches he is easily negated.

That is because he imparts the least amount of energy onto the ball. Even the likes of Moeen Ali and Jack Leach put much more revs onto the ball and possibly even Joe Root lol. Its likely to do with the fact that he is a lazy bum with all the athleticism of the 50 year old uncles playing cricket in the neighboring little grounds. Watching him run after the ball is one of the most hilarious sights in cricket. Jadeja and even Lyon are proper athletes. I suppose all that energy that he saves gets fed into that big brain of his.

He requires the pitch to provide the pace and bounce to magnify the small amount of spin that he is able to generate and when it does, he is effective, because he has a good amount of variations and decent control to generate good balls consistently. This is why he was successful in Melbourne 20, Edgbaston 18 and Adelaide 18. Those pitches had enough grass to provide the firmness and springiness but not so much that the ball starts to skid off it.

When the pitch can no longer provide this assistance, he becomes toothless to a much higher degree than either Jadeja and Lyon, even when the ball is turning from the surface, because it is very slow turn and most decent batsmen have little trouble in handling it. That is why he failed in Jo'burg, Southampton, Sydney, Chennai 17 etc. The pitches don't have the pace or bounce that Ashwin needs to amplify his deliveries.

Jadeja doesn't lose his effectiveness on these pitches because he is able to actually outthink the batsmen and while he doesn't have 10 different variations, he is able to vary his release points and revs enough to combine with the natural variation of the pitch and outfox the batsman. Lyon on the other hand imparts the most energy out on the ball of any finger-spinner I have seen. He puts a vicious amount of top-spin on his stock off-spiner, more than any other bowler in the world. His stock balls by themselves create the threat for the batsman and so every ball is a potential wicket taker and is great to watch when he's on song. His problem is that he only has that one stock ball. He doesn't have a single variation, he doesn't even vary his line / lengths, speed, revs, anything; across entire spells and so while those balls are threatening on even completely flaccid surfaces, they are predictable and easier to face the longer a series goes on.

Personally, I would pick both Lyon and Jadeja over Ashwin for an all conditions XI when considering their bowling skills alone. They would be equally effective in Indian conditions, while in overseas conditions, they would actually win some matches on their own and at least provide a semblance of control on unhelpful pitches instead of disappearing like Ashwin who additionally, also lacks the fitness to last as a single spinner in a 4 man attack. There is no question of Ashwin being compared with any ATG like Warne, Murali.

 

[Hitman]

Always get a feeling that this C grade batsman thought of himself as a gift of god to Indian cricket. One guy also has leaked his conversation with Manjrekar where he was making fun of Jadeja's english.

You are being generous calling him a C grade batsman. The guy has an ego the size of North Atlantic.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Ashwin is a very conditions dependent bowler compared to the other two good spinners in the world Jadeja and Lyon. While he is better at exploiting conditions than those two, on unhelpful pitches he is easily negated.

That is because he imparts the least amount of energy onto the ball. Even the likes of Moeen Ali and Jack Leach put much more revs onto the ball and possibly even Joe Root lol. Its likely to do with the fact that he is a lazy bum with all the athleticism of the 50 year old uncles playing cricket in the neighboring little grounds. Watching him run after the ball is one of the most hilarious sights in cricket. Jadeja and even Lyon are proper athletes. I suppose all that energy that he saves gets fed into that big brain of his.

He requires the pitch to provide the pace and bounce to magnify the small amount of spin that he is able to generate and when it does, he is effective, because he has a good amount of variations and decent control to generate good balls consistently. This is why he was successful in Melbourne 20, Edgbaston 18 and Adelaide 18. Those pitches had enough grass to provide the firmness and springiness but not so much that the ball starts to skid off it.

When the pitch can no longer provide this assistance, he becomes toothless to a much higher degree than either Jadeja and Lyon, even when the ball is turning from the surface, because it is very slow turn and most decent batsmen have little trouble in handling it. That is why he failed in Jo'burg, Southampton, Sydney, Chennai 17 etc. The pitches don't have the pace or bounce that Ashwin needs to amplify his deliveries.

Jadeja doesn't lose his effectiveness on these pitches because he is able to actually outthink the batsmen and while he doesn't have 10 different variations, he is able to vary his release points and revs enough to combine with the natural variation of the pitch and outfox the batsman. Lyon on the other hand imparts the most energy out on the ball of any finger-spinner I have seen. He puts a vicious amount of top-spin on his stock off-spiner, more than any other bowler in the world. His stock balls by themselves create the threat for the batsman and so every ball is a potential wicket taker and is great to watch when he's on song. His problem is that he only has that one stock ball. He doesn't have a single variation, he doesn't even vary his line / lengths, speed, revs, anything; across entire spells and so while those balls are threatening on even completely flaccid surfaces, they are predictable and easier to face the longer a series goes on.

Personally, I would pick both Lyon and Jadeja over Ashwin for an all conditions XI when considering their bowling skills alone. They would be equally effective in Indian conditions, while in overseas conditions, they would actually win some matches on their own and at least provide a semblance of control on unhelpful pitches instead of disappearing like Ashwin who additionally, also lacks the fitness to last as a single spinner in a 4 man attack. There is no question of Ashwin being compared with any ATG like Warne, Murali.

In helpful conditions that Ashwin has enjoyed, any newbie (but FC veteran) Ind/Pak/SL/BD and even Afghan spinner would get 5fers.

People get emotional and thread always gets derailed.

 

[Ab Fan]

It's because you're adding the stats of the second innings in which Aus. was chasing 90 odd runs. The game was dead after the 36 all out, a bit like how India raced to chase 50-0 in Ahmedabad (3rd Test) vs England recently even though the previous 3 innings yielded like 350 runs combined. Not a fair reflection of overall performance.




As seen in the recent test at Ahmedabad, pink ball is in no way a detriment as compared to the red ball for spinners as well, it even might be beneficial:

Graphic suggests pink ball significant factor in low scoring third Test

https://wisden.com/series-stories/i...-significant-factor-in-low-scoring-third-test






You seem to be confused. I don't see anywhere where I have directly equated the stats of spinners and pacers. I have only made the observation that Ashwin wasn't really the "standout" bowler in the aforementioned tests and the other bowlers also were just as much if not more deserving of the accolade.



Kumble also had to bowl much longer spells and return to bowl new spells to well settled batsmen. That's a far bigger challenge than bowling along with a good bowling attack. We all saw Ashwin's performances when he was a part of mediocre attacks overseas and it wasn't pretty in the least.

Kumble bagging 24 wickets at 29 in the 03/04 series against Australia with that Aussie batting line up and flat pitches to boot is an astronomically bigger achievement than whatever Ashwin's best has been overseas in his 10 year+ career.

I agree on the Kumble part. Taking an 8-fer on a flat Sydney wicket vs GOAT Australian batting lineup without literally any support is a massive achievement. It is arguably an ATG bowling performance.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Glad to see we're starting on the right note here.






Adelaide 2018 - Bumrah
Edgbaston 2018 - Ishant (But I'll admit this one is arguable)
Melbourne 2020 - Easily Bumrah
Adelaide 2020 - Not a standout performance, Bumrah and Umesh were arguably just as good

Again, even if you want to believe that these performances were "definitively" standout performances then it further underlines that Ashwin by all means hasn't had any since all of these consist of cute 2/3/4 wicket hauls; nothing of the ilk of a rampaging 6/7 wicket haul that changes the face of the game single handedly like ATGs do.








You are free to check their best performances in SENA, each one of them has had at least a couple of proper standout performances where they were unequivocally the best bowlers of the match. Ashwin hasn't had any. Even the ones you mention are very very arguable.



All these bowlers faced far better Australian batting line ups - a little detail you forgot to add in. I'm sure there's a difference between facing the challenge of Hayden and Langer opening the batting than Joe Burns and Matthew Wade doing the same lol.





Who would have thought that taking out of every unfavorable situation would make the performances seem good? I wonder why we don't do it for other ATGs, oh that's right.. because we don't need to.

Again, I reiterate that I'm not trying to undermine Ashwin here. He definitely a very useful all round player overseas. Hell I would argue that he is much closer to being an ATG all rounder than being an ATG bowler.
But purely on his bowling exploits over the course of a very lengthy sample set (>10 years) he easily comes up short in comparison to the ATGs. The best compliment I can pay him as a bowler is that he is the Mahela Jayawardene of spin bowling - untouchable in home conditions, serviceable at best overseas. Overall a highly regarded name in the sport.

Glad to you responded mate.

Let's go over your responses cos I have seen most of the test almost ball to ball.

Adelaide 2018 - Bumrah
Edgbaston 2018 - Ishant (But I'll admit this one is arguable)
Melbourne 2020 - Easily Bumrah
Adelaide 2020 - Not a standout performance, Bumrah and Umesh were arguably just as good

And we are off to GASLIGHTING right off the bat.

By the same token, let's look at how James Anderson performed:

Got manhandled in Ahmedabad 2012.
Monty and Swann did the demolition job in Mumbai.
Did well in Kolkata (with Monty picking 4 wickets in first innings and all chipping in in the second innings).
Did well in the only innings he bowled.

Remove Swann and Monty from that tour and Anderson would have had atrocious stats. lol.

Now coming back to addressing your concern,

Adelaide 2018 - Who bowled a gazzilion overs at 1.5 rpo to give the pacers the rest? Had Ashwin not done his job and picked 6 crucial wickets in that test, Bumrah couldn't have done well too. Mind you, Aus ALMOST won the test before Ash plucked the last wicket.

Edgbaston 2018 - ) Now you are being funny. If there's one test where Ashwin waged a CRAZY battle with others not pulling in their weight, it was Edgbaston. 2nd innings, for a large part, ONLY he looked like picking up the wicket.

Melbourne 2020 - LMAO......Again another comedy. The demolition job he did in the first innings was the biggest reason why we won the game. Of course, everyone will have to do well for us to win the test. 2nd innings, he took out Labu and derailed their rhythm. If you watched the game, you would see how the mood shifted once Ashwin removed Labu in 2nd innings while Smith was all at sea in 2nd innings.

Adelaide 2020 - Umesh came and took wickets later in the day after Ash did the damage. Yes it was important too but can't believe you will deny even this. He took 4 wickets that day lol.

Let's move on.

Again, even if you want to believe that these performances were "definitively" standout performances then it further underlines that Ashwin by all means hasn't had any since all of these consist of cute 2/3/4 wicket hauls; nothing of the ilk of a rampaging 6/7 wicket haul that changes the face of the game single handedly like ATGs do.

Check the number of games Ash played in SENA too.

Moreover, spinners can't change the game on their head in SENA if batsman and pacers don't do their job.

Or do I have to explain this basic fact to you?

If you wanna blame him for Centurion 2018, Southampton 2018 and Joberg 2013....thats fine.

But he won us 2 series in Aus (both with bat and ball in both series). Without him, there was no series win.

You are free to check their best performances in SENA, each one of them has had at least a couple of proper standout performances where they were unequivocally the best bowlers of the match. Ashwin hasn't had any. Even the ones you mention are very very arguable.

Oh yes I have.

And Ashwin has quite a few.

And Centurion 2018.....he had a gazzilion catches dropped. Went from an 8fer to 4fer.

But but but...in the end its just a 4fer...so won't rate that.

All these bowlers faced far better Australian batting line ups - a little detail you forgot to add in. I'm sure there's a difference between facing the challenge of Hayden and Langer opening the batting than Joe Burns and Matthew Wade doing the same lol.

Yes there is.

Which is why no one demeans them for having a bad series or two.

But on dead tracks with nothing for bowlers and having leaky pacers...its very very hard for spinners to thrive.

To put it in perpective:

If I were to ask you his performance in Aus 2014-15...you would call it awful.

Use Lyon's stats with Ash's stats.

But in reality both bowlers had similar stats in the games they played together.

And one was playing with a discplined attack while other had to deal with pacers who were leaking 3.5-4 rpo on the other end.

I note all this which is why historically I get proven right while all blind stat ninjas end up being wrong.

*Here's another stat*

Forget about all past bowlers.

All Ash's peers (non AUssies) who had to bowl in the same Aussie pitches had their careers derailed in a tour or two. While this guy is still going strong after 4 tours (where he clicked in 2 and did decently in 1).

Also Swann is ARGUABLY as good as any spinner of the past era except Warne & Murali. See his performance in Aus on the same pitches and mind you, he didn't have to play with hopeless pace attacks like Ash had to pre 2015.

Who would have thought that taking out of every unfavorable situation would make the performances seem good? I wonder why we don't do it for other ATGs, oh that's right.. because we don't need to.

Do you understand the FUNDAMENTAL point?

I didn't take out Ash's performance and included for other ATGs.

I took it out to show his stats.

AND then I added the performance of other spinners on harsh conditions in the same country and showed their stats.

By the way, Aus pitches in 2010-2015 were harder than any pitches of the past.

So much so that even Johnson and Ryan Harris officially started complaining about it.

Yeah pacers...complaining about how dead they were.

Again, I reiterate that I'm not trying to undermine Ashwin here. He definitely a very useful all round player overseas. Hell I would argue that he is much closer to being an ATG all rounder than being an ATG bowler.

You seriously expect people to believe this lol.

I am not undermining Ashwin but I will ignore ALL his contributions overseas (even series winning ones) and keep talking about how he is a complete failure.

But....I am not undermining him.

Just keeping it real.

But purely on his bowling exploits over the course of a very lengthy sample set (>10 years) he easily comes up short in comparison to the ATGs. The best compliment I can pay him as a bowler is that he is the Mahela Jayawardene of spin bowling - untouchable in home conditions, serviceable at best overseas. Overall a highly regarded name in the sport.

Nothing wrong with that view. Its your personal opinion.

But that doesn't mean he didn't do anything in SENA.

My bone of contention is NOT your view but how you selectively use data for those you like (Rahane) and dislike (Kohli, Ashwin).

Ponder over that.

And by the way, like [MENTION=143730]AMSS[/MENTION] pointed out, a spinner (unless he is Warne or Murali) can't do anything on alien conditions without support from others. He can fight and pick a few wickets but sooner or later, the lack of performance of others will catch up to him and he will tire out and leak runs. This is exactly what happened in 2015 (the hardest series for any spinner that I have personally witnessed - even current Ashwin won't average sub 35 in that series).

 

[Proactive_]

Glad to you responded mate.


Adelaide 2018 - Who bowled a gazzilion overs at 1.5 rpo to give the pacers the rest? Had Ashwin not done his job and picked 6 crucial wickets in that test, Bumrah couldn't have done well too. Mind you, Aus ALMOST won the test before Ash plucked the last wicket.

Edgbaston 2018 - ) Now you are being funny. If there's one test where Ashwin waged a CRAZY battle with others not pulling in their weight, it was Edgbaston. 2nd innings, for a large part, ONLY he looked like picking up the wicket.

Melbourne 2020 - LMAO......Again another comedy. The demolition job he did in the first innings was the biggest reason why we won the game.Of course, everyone will have to do well for us to win the test. 2nd innings, he took out Labu and derailed their rhythm. If you watched the game, you would see how the mood shifted once Ashwin removed Labu in 2nd innings while Smith was all at sea in 2nd innings.

Adelaide 2020 - Umesh came and took wickets later in the day after Ash did the damage. Yes it was important too but can't believe you will deny even this. He took 4 wickets that day lol.

Let's move on.

All the bolded parts are blatant opinionated narration and have nothing to do with objectivity. Sorry but if your best defense always is "I always watched every ball of every match so blindly believe my assessment" then sadly you're coming up a bit short here dude.

If these are Ashwin's Top 4 performances overseas then in any event I don't have anything else to add here. These are performances where one can't even be unanimous that Ashwin was without a doubt the best bowler of even his team let alone the match. Of course scorecards don't always show the entire story but a wide majority of the times they also
definitively show a lot and sadly Ashwin hasn't been the main protagonist of any story overseas thus far.

Moreover, spinners can't change the game on their head in SENA if batsman and pacers don't do their job.

That's non sense. There are a lot of 5-50s and 6-80s on record by spinners overseas that have shaped games. As I mentioned earlier, take any name out of the list of Asian spinners I posted before and take out their best performances in SENA, and then compare them with Ashwin's. It's night and day.

To put it in perpective:

If I were to ask you his performance in Aus 2014-15...you would call it awful.

Use Lyon's stats with Ash's stats.

But in reality both bowlers had similar stats in the games they played together.

And one was playing with a discplined attack while other had to deal with pacers who were leaking 3.5-4 rpo on the other end.

I note all this which is why historically I get proven right while all blind stat ninjas end up being wrong.

*Here's another stat*

Forget about all past bowlers.

All Ash's peers (non AUssies) who had to bowl in the same Aussie pitches had their careers derailed in a tour or two. While this guy is still going strong after 4 tours (where he clicked in 2 and did decently in 1).

Also Swann is ARGUABLY as good as any spinner of the past era except Warne & Murali. See his performance in Aus on the same pitches and mind you, he didn't have to play with hopeless pace attacks like Ash had to pre 2015.

I wonder why you're so fixated on just Australia but let me give you some cold hard facts here. Ashwin has played 20 tests in SENA.

20.

You mean to tell me that a close to ATG level bowler has never had a performance in these countries which can unanimously be regarded as the best in the match?

Chandra 6-38
Kumble 8-141, 6/53
Bedi 5-55 and 5-105
Mushtaq 6-78
Saqlain 6-46
Harbhajan 6-63

If these "lesser" spin bowlers can have performances like these overseas concerning which one doesn't need to write 15 lines of justification on why they are great; why can't Ashwin in a 10+ year career conjure up even one similar to these?

And I wish I had time to dig up more so that I could completely bury this non sense of "Spin bowlers can't change the game on their head in SENA" for good. Maybe one day.

Nothing wrong with that view. Its your personal opinion.

But that doesn't mean he didn't do anything in SENA.

My bone of contention is NOT your view but how you selectively use data for those you like (Rahane) and dislike (Kohli, Ashwin).

Ponder over that.

And by the way, like [MENTION=143730]AMSS[/MENTION] pointed out, a spinner (unless he is Warne or Murali) can't do anything on alien conditions without support from others. He can fight and pick a few wickets but sooner or later, the lack of performance of others will catch up to him and he will tire out and leak runs. This is exactly what happened in 2015 (the hardest series for any spinner that I have personally witnessed - even current Ashwin won't average sub 35 in that series).

Again, I didn't say Ashwin didn't do anything. I just said that his contributions are nowhere near the status that is being accorded to him. As I mentioned Jayawardene before - someone who also had a few good performances in alien conditions but overall is widely accepted to have been bang average facing those said conditions. Similar with Ashwin.

 

[subshakerz]

If a batsman from the subcontinent averaged over 50 yet never scored a ton in SENA, would any fan or pundit call him an all-time great, regardless of his average? No.

 

[Savak]

Manjrekar used to be a pretty humble civil commentar. Vast majority of Indian Commentators like Manjrekar, Gavaskar, Shastri etc used to be very humble but India's success in the last 6 years has made them very arrogant and large headed

 

[BalluBalleBaaz]

We can all safely say now Sanjay is being Sanjay.

 

[Mesozoic]

If a batsman from the subcontinent averaged over 50 yet never scored a ton in SENA, would any fan or pundit call him an all-time great, regardless of his average? No.

There are a number of reasons why Ashwin shouldn't be considered an ATG Test bowler (yet) but not having a 5fer in SENA is definitely not one of them.

 

[street cricketer]

Ashwin is a very conditions dependent bowler compared to the other two good spinners in the world Jadeja and Lyon. While he is better at exploiting conditions than those two, on unhelpful pitches he is easily negated.

That is because he imparts the least amount of energy onto the ball. Even the likes of Moeen Ali and Jack Leach put much more revs onto the ball and possibly even Joe Root lol. Its likely to do with the fact that he is a lazy bum with all the athleticism of the 50 year old uncles playing cricket in the neighboring little grounds. Watching him run after the ball is one of the most hilarious sights in cricket. Jadeja and even Lyon are proper athletes. I suppose all that energy that he saves gets fed into that big brain of his.

He requires the pitch to provide the pace and bounce to magnify the small amount of spin that he is able to generate and when it does, he is effective, because he has a good amount of variations and decent control to generate good balls consistently. This is why he was successful in Melbourne 20, Edgbaston 18 and Adelaide 18. Those pitches had enough grass to provide the firmness and springiness but not so much that the ball starts to skid off it.

When the pitch can no longer provide this assistance, he becomes toothless to a much higher degree than either Jadeja and Lyon, even when the ball is turning from the surface, because it is very slow turn and most decent batsmen have little trouble in handling it. That is why he failed in Jo'burg, Southampton, Sydney, Chennai 17 etc. The pitches don't have the pace or bounce that Ashwin needs to amplify his deliveries.

Jadeja doesn't lose his effectiveness on these pitches because he is able to actually outthink the batsmen and while he doesn't have 10 different variations, he is able to vary his release points and revs enough to combine with the natural variation of the pitch and outfox the batsman. Lyon on the other hand imparts the most energy out on the ball of any finger-spinner I have seen. He puts a vicious amount of top-spin on his stock off-spiner, more than any other bowler in the world. His stock balls by themselves create the threat for the batsman and so every ball is a potential wicket taker and is great to watch when he's on song. His problem is that he only has that one stock ball. He doesn't have a single variation, he doesn't even vary his line / lengths, speed, revs, anything; across entire spells and so while those balls are threatening on even completely flaccid surfaces, they are predictable and easier to face the longer a series goes on.

Personally, I would pick both Lyon and Jadeja over Ashwin for an all conditions XI when considering their bowling skills alone. They would be equally effective in Indian conditions, while in overseas conditions, they would actually win some matches on their own and at least provide a semblance of control on unhelpful pitches instead of disappearing like Ashwin who additionally, also lacks the fitness to last as a single spinner in a 4 man attack. There is no question of Ashwin being compared with any ATG like Warne, Murali.

Interesting points to which I somewhat agree. Ashwin does lack the pace on the ball, mainly because he is a front chest on spinner unlike guys like Lyon or Swann, who are side chest on spinners and so there's a lot more pivot and body into their bowling actions while Ashwin's action has much less body and all the power he puts into his deliveries are from his shoulder.

That said, he is very accurate and does manage to stem the flow of runs even on flat wickets even if he's not as potent as he's on wickets with some pace and bounce. He's also very clever and has numerous variations which he uses to his advantage, and it's why he has outbowled someone like Lyon even in Australia. Even though Lyon puts a lot more body into his deliveries and far more orthodox in his action than Ashwin, his lack of variations pegs him back.

In the matches they have played together in Australia,

Ashwin has 30 wickets at 35, ER: 2.74 SR: 78.5

Lyon has 25 wickets at 42, ER: 3.03 SR: 84.3

 

[Ab Fan]

Lyon is nothing more than a weak opposition bully. Just look at his record vs top teams at home. It is pretty awful. In SENA conditions vs South Africa, England and India, he has been pretty awful.

He has only bullied New Zealand, all thanks to his pacers who have a mental advantage vs Kiwi batsman and Lyon had to do just support job.

More importantly, three instances in my mind on a Day 5 pitch where he failed to take Australia cross the line are Headingley 2019, Sydney 2020 and GABBA 2021.

I would rate Lyon below Kumble, Ashwin, Herath and Swann, all four of them and about same level to Dan Vettori.

 

[MP2011]

Lyon is nothing more than a weak opposition bully. Just look at his record vs top teams at home. It is pretty awful. In SENA conditions vs South Africa, England and India, he has been pretty awful.

He has only bullied New Zealand, all thanks to his pacers who have a mental advantage vs Kiwi batsman and Lyon had to do just support job.

More importantly, three instances in my mind on a Day 5 pitch where he failed to take Australia cross the line are Headingley 2019, Sydney 2020 and GABBA 2021.

I would rate Lyon below Kumble, Ashwin, Herath and Swann, all four of them and about same level to Dan Vettori.

Lyon has gone down quite a bit during last few years. At one point, he genuinely rivalled Ashwin as best spinner in world, not any longer.

 

[Mamoon]

Ashwin is the greatest off-spinner of all time.

Muralitharan’s record should not be recognized because he was a blatant chucker. The biggest chucker the game has ever seen along with Ajmal.

It is a shame that ICC bowed down to political pressure and allowed a cheat like him to amass 800 illegal Test wickets.

 

[Ab Fan]

<B>Lyon has gone down quite a bit during last few years</B>. At one point, he genuinely rivalled Ashwin as best spinner in world, not any longer.

This is why longevity matters. Lyon has balanced stats everywhere but they are not great. The only place where he averages under 30 is New Zealand and he has played only 2 tests there. So, the stats could get a hit anytime.

In India and UAE, he had to play the lead role with bowl but unfortunately aside of that 8-fer on a rank turner in Bangalore, he doesn't have anything to boost for. In Sri Lanka, Ashwin has dominated and won his country a test series while Lyon didn't do anything in 2017 series loss of 0-3.

To conclude, Lyon is inferior to Ashwin everywhere except New Zealand and in South Africa, both are equally atrocious.

 

[Mamoon]

Lyon got rinsed at home by India twice. He cannot be considered at the same level as Ashwin anymore. In fact, he is not even at the same level as Jadeja.

He is probably only slighter better than Yasir.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

If James Anderson can be considered as an ATG then surely Ashwin can also be considered as an ATG?

 

[AMSS]

Ashwin has the chance to propel himself in the top 10 of all time wicket takers during this ENG tour. Currently Hearath sits at Number 10 with 433 wickets. Ashwin would need 25 wickets in 6 tests to overtake him. Tough ask given the conditions but very much doable.

 

[MP2011]

This is why longevity matters.

And people say longevity is overrated!

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Ashwin is the greatest off-spinner of all time.

Muralitharan’s record should not be recognized because he was a blatant chucker. The biggest chucker the game has ever seen along with Ajmal.

It is a shame that ICC bowed down to political pressure and allowed a cheat like him to amass 800 illegal Test wickets.

Both Murali and Ajmal were at least called and tested.

But Indian chuckers are untouchables.

Again, the thread will get deviated.

 

[Mesozoic]

Both Murali and Ajmal were at least called and tested.

But Indian chuckers are untouchables.

Again, the thread will get deviated.

ICC tests those who get reported for throwing by the umpires or the opponent players. If they start testing players based on the whims of emotional fans, they won't be left with much time to run the game.

 

[Mr Crickekter]

ICC tests those who get reported for throwing by the umpires or the opponent players. If they start testing players based on the whims of emotional fans, they won't be left with much time to run the game.

Whole world knows which players are reported and tested by your ICC

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

All the bolded parts are blatant opinionated narration and have nothing to do with objectivity. Sorry but if your best defense always is "I always watched every ball of every match so blindly believe my assessment" then sadly you're coming up a bit short here dude.

If these are Ashwin's Top 4 performances overseas then in any event I don't have anything else to add here. These are performances where one can't even be unanimous that Ashwin was without a doubt the best bowler of even his team let alone the match. Of course scorecards don't always show the entire story but a wide majority of the times they also
definitively show a lot and sadly Ashwin hasn't been the main protagonist of any story overseas thus far.





That's non sense. There are a lot of 5-50s and 6-80s on record by spinners overseas that have shaped games. As I mentioned earlier, take any name out of the list of Asian spinners I posted before and take out their best performances in SENA, and then compare them with Ashwin's. It's night and day.





I wonder why you're so fixated on just Australia but let me give you some cold hard facts here. Ashwin has played 20 tests in SENA.

20.

You mean to tell me that a close to ATG level bowler has never had a performance in these countries which can unanimously be regarded as the best in the match?

Chandra 6-38
Kumble 8-141, 6/53
Bedi 5-55 and 5-105
Mushtaq 6-78
Saqlain 6-46
Harbhajan 6-63

If these "lesser" spin bowlers can have performances like these overseas concerning which one doesn't need to write 15 lines of justification on why they are great; why can't Ashwin in a 10+ year career conjure up even one similar to these?

And I wish I had time to dig up more so that I could completely bury this non sense of "Spin bowlers can't change the game on their head in SENA" for good. Maybe one day.





Again, I didn't say Ashwin didn't do anything. I just said that his contributions are nowhere near the status that is being accorded to him. As I mentioned Jayawardene before - someone who also had a few good performances in alien conditions but overall is widely accepted to have been bang average facing those said conditions. Similar with Ashwin.

Sorry was super busy so couldn't get back to you.

Atleast we are making progress bud.

You didn't argue reg James Anderson and I appreciate that.

Before I continue to respond to your post in detail, I would like to point out the following (as this will be helpful as you read the rest of the reply):

James Anderson is an ATG (most would agree).

His performance in Asia is this.

0 5fers in India.
0 5fers in UAE (only place where he played Pakistan)
2 5fers in SL

You have been going ON & ON about Anderson outbowling Indian bowlers and affecting test defeats yet you forgot the notice he has ZERO 5fers in India.

Yet he outbowled other bowlers.

But Ashwin does the same and it's due to OTHER bowlers shining. ​

James Anderson kare tho chamatkar but Ashwin kare to balatkar.

Seeing the pattern here?

Remove the performance of others in the games Andesrson did well and it would have ben ALMOST impossible for him to do well too.

Yet he was the standout bowler.

You know why?

Cos he came in at a CRITICAL MOMENT and knocked the wind out of the opposition.

The same like how Ashwin did in SENA in quite a few tests and resulted in 2 series wins in Aus.

Now let's move to your posts:

All the bolded parts are blatant opinionated narration and have nothing to do with objectivity.

I am adding them as SUPPORTING arguments and not the main argument.

I guess calling Kohli's 2018 SA performance (hailed worldwide by everyone) as an overrated one is the epitome of objectivity.

Sorry but if your best defense always is "I always watched every ball of every match so blindly believe my assessment" then sadly you're coming up a bit short here dude.

lol.

Don't worry about me buddy.

I have a mountain of data and proof to back everything up.

If these are Ashwin's Top 4 performances overseas then in any event I don't have anything else to add here. These are performances where one can't even be unanimous that Ashwin was without a doubt the best bowler of even his team let alone the match. Of course scorecards don't always show the entire story but a wide majority of the times they also
definitively show a lot and sadly Ashwin hasn't been the main protagonist of any story overseas thus far.

Same way Anderson hasn't starred in any wins in India.

Let's continue cos things will get a lot more fun as you are going to get exposed to ACTUAL data.

I wonder why you're so fixated on just Australia but let me give you some cold hard facts here. Ashwin has played 20 tests in SENA.

20.

You mean to tell me that a close to ATG level bowler has never had a performance in these countries which can unanimously be regarded as the best in the match?

Good.....I like this.

You are making this statement cos you are either IGNORANT or you have other ideas in your mind.

I find it hard to believe the former but I am going to address this post.

Watch and learn buddy.

Do you know how many of the 20 tests India was ACTUALLY in the game and Ashwin actually got to bowl properly?


Let's do a country by country analysis.

New Zealand - 1 test

He bowled in 1 innings in TOTAL. That's it. 3 wickets. India lost by almost an innings.

SA - 3 tests

Joberg 2013 - Barely bowled in the first innings. Flopped in 2nd innings. Valid criticism.
2018 1st test - Barely bowled in first innings. Took 2 tail wickets. Barely bowled in 2nd innings.
2018 2nd test - Took a 4fer (should have been a LOT LOT more had we held to dollies). Second innings didn't fully do the job. 1 wicket.

This is some INCREDIBLE sample set lol.

Ashwin got to bowl properly in just 3 innings.

Flopped badly in 1. Did extraordinarily well in 1. Subpar in 1.

Eng - 5 tests

2014 Manchester Test - barely bowled. We got innings defeated.
2014 Oval test - 3 wickets in the first innings. We got innings defeated.
2018 Egbaston - Gun performance.
2018 Lords - Green track. Bowled in 1 innings. 10-15 overs. Wicketless. Innings defeat.
2018 Trent Bridge - Not sure how much he bowled. Was injured.
2018 Southampton - Flopped. Shouldn't have played.

This is also another great sample set. )

Southampton was the ONLY time you can blame him but the team management wanted to play him cos he was so damn good in the 1st test.

Then there's Aus where he played 4 tours (4 + 3 + 1 + 3 = 11 tests).

This makes his 20 tests.

The ONLY country where he actually got a proper shot to bowl was in Aus which is why that's the most talked about.

This isn't to say he hasn't made mistakes in other SENA countries but to harp about 20 tests without understanding ground realities is intellectual dishonesty which is my main issue with you.

Chandra 6-38
Kumble 8-141, 6/53
Bedi 5-55 and 5-105
Mushtaq 6-78
Saqlain 6-46
Harbhajan 6-63

If these "lesser" spin bowlers can have performances like these overseas concerning which one doesn't need to write 15 lines of justification on why they are great; why can't Ashwin in a 10+ year career conjure up even one similar to these?

Proactive: Ashwin doesn't have a 5fer in SENA. I will list out bowlers who have 5fers in SENA and call them better.

Also Proactive: James Anderson has uprooted trees in India. I don't wanna talk about his lack of 5fers in India. So what he has taken 600 wickets without a 5fer against India or Pakistan....atleast he bullied the hapless SL to get 5fers so thats the same as Ashwin getting 5fers in SENA )

Again, I didn't say Ashwin didn't do anything.

Yes you did.

You said he didn't do anything in SENA whcih is 100% wrong.

I just said that his contributions are nowhere near the status that is being accorded to him.

He ain't unanimously rated as an ATG.

He has made India INVINCIBLE in Asia, WI and won us 2 series in Aus (the most prestigious series of them all).

That's almost 80% of the games India play.

So he will be rated high for that.

Just cos he didn't pick a tailender wicket in Centurion, Edgabaston, Melbourne, etc to get a 5fer doesn't take the sheen away from what he did. I guess Pat Cummins shouldn't have slogged Jaddu in Melbourne and given Ash the wicket and he would be rated high by the 5fer gang. lol.

As I mentioned Jayawardene before - someone who also had a few good performances in alien conditions but overall is widely accepted to have been bang average facing those said conditions. Similar with Ashwin.

Feel free to hold those views personally.

No need to resort to blatant twisting of reality to conform the sequence of events to your world view.

 

[Proactive_]

James Anderson is an ATG (most would agree).

His performance in Asia is this.

0 5fers in India.
0 5fers in UAE (only place where he played Pakistan)
2 5fers in SL

You have been going ON & ON about Anderson outbowling Indian bowlers and affecting test defeats yet you forgot the notice he has ZERO 5fers in India.

Yet he outbowled other bowlers.

But Ashwin does the same and it's due to OTHER bowlers shining. ​

James Anderson's average in Asia: 27
R. Ashwin's average in SENA : 40

I'm not sure but I don't see any similarity here to even take the argument to the number of 5 fers. The notion of double standards is laughable. Sure it's one thing that Anderson would have loved to have on his CV - rip apart batting attacks in Asian conditions more often like Steyn did (although he did that recently in SL) but the fact remains that Anderson ticks far more boxes in Asia than Ashwin does overseas.

Has Anderson been a primary contributor in wins in Asia? - Yes
Has Anderson got his wickets at a very good average for a fast bowler in Subcontinent conditions? - Yes
Has Anderson displayed the longevity to significantly affect games in the Subcontinent across multiple tours? -Yes (Mumbai 2006 to Chennai 2021)


For Ashwin - Point 1 is arguable at best, Point 2 is an EASY No and Point 3 is a easy NO as well since he has been incredibly ineffective until the last 2-3 years in a 10+ year career.

Good.....I like this.

You are making this statement cos you are either IGNORANT or you have other ideas in your mind.

I find it hard to believe the former but I am going to address this post.

Watch and learn buddy.

Do you know how many of the 20 tests India was ACTUALLY in the game and Ashwin actually got to bowl properly?


Let's do a country by country analysis.

New Zealand - 1 test

He bowled in 1 innings in TOTAL. That's it. 3 wickets. India lost by almost an innings.

SA - 3 tests

Joberg 2013 - Barely bowled in the first innings. Flopped in 2nd innings. Valid criticism.
2018 1st test - Barely bowled in first innings. Took 2 tail wickets. Barely bowled in 2nd innings.
2018 2nd test - Took a 4fer (should have been a LOT LOT more had we held to dollies). Second innings didn't fully do the job. 1 wicket.

This is some INCREDIBLE sample set lol.

Ashwin got to bowl properly in just 3 innings.

Flopped badly in 1. Did extraordinarily well in 1. Subpar in 1.

Eng - 5 tests

2014 Manchester Test - barely bowled. We got innings defeated.
2014 Oval test - 3 wickets in the first innings. We got innings defeated.
2018 Egbaston - Gun performance.
2018 Lords - Green track. Bowled in 1 innings. 10-15 overs. Wicketless. Innings defeat.
2018 Trent Bridge - Not sure how much he bowled. Was injured.
2018 Southampton - Flopped. Shouldn't have played.

This is also another great sample set. )

Southampton was the ONLY time you can blame him but the team management wanted to play him cos he was so damn good in the 1st test.

Then there's Aus where he played 4 tours (4 + 3 + 1 + 3 = 11 tests).

This makes his 20 tests.

You know this is the EXACT reason why Ashwin doesn't deserve to be in the discussion for ATGs any time soon. Dennis Lillee played FOUR tests in Asia and a wide majority of the online cricketing community makes it a point to mention his lack of performances in Asian conditions (rightfully so) at every point to discredit his status as an ATG.

And now we have you writing 50 lines of text to somehow convince people that a TWENTY TEST sample set is not enough to cast judgement on R. Ashwin's (lack) of performances in alien conditions. and that he somehow isn't as bad as his figures show.

The reason I posted the figures of the yesteryear's bowlers was to underline the point that a sizable number of bowlers who are now widely regarded to have been worse than Ashwin have peak performances that far outweigh Ashwin's overseas. If they can, why can't Ashwin? Over a 10 year career no less?

Yes you did.

You said he didn't do anything in SENA whcih is 100% wrong.



He ain't unanimously rated as an ATG.

He has made India INVINCIBLE in Asia, WI and won us 2 series in Aus (the most prestigious series of them all).

That's almost 80% of the games India play.

So he will be rated high for that.

Sure, we are in agreement on that. Ashwin's performances at home are not in question, though Jadeja for all money is still a significantly better bowler on flat pitches.

Just cos he didn't pick a tailender wicket in Centurion, Edgabaston, Melbourne, etc to get a 5fer doesn't take the sheen away from what he did. I guess Pat Cummins shouldn't have slogged Jaddu in Melbourne and given Ash the wicket and he would be rated high by the 5fer gang. lol.

I wonder why only Ashwin is so unlucky that he could never pick up that "tailender", why didn't the likes of:

Kumble
Harbhajan
Herath
Mushtaq
Saqlain
Qadir
Chandra
Bedi
Prasanna

miss that tailender wicket.

Why does only poor Ashwin always have to be one to miss that elusive tailender wicket?

Feel free to hold those views personally.

No need to resort to blatant twisting of reality to conform the sequence of events to your world view.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[krikit]

You can call Lyon whatever names you want, but he turned in a match winning performance of 6/49 in England, something Ashwin has not been able to in his career so far including in that much hyped Edgbaston test the year before. He has his limitations but Lyon has had match winning innings in just about every country he has played while Ashwin hasn't. Even when he is not picking wickets like at the Gabba, he is still creating threat for the batsman and beating him almost every over whereas Ashwin gets played like a part-timer on his off-days.

 

[street cricketer]

You can call Lyon whatever names you want, but he turned in a match winning performance of 6/49 in England, something Ashwin has not been able to in his career so far including in that much hyped Edgbaston test the year before. He has his limitations but Lyon has had match winning innings in just about every country he has played while Ashwin hasn't. Even when he is not picking wickets like at the Gabba, he is still creating threat for the batsman and beating him almost every over whereas Ashwin gets played like a part-timer on his off-days.

Ashwin still outbowls him in Lyon's own home patch though. Wonder how.

Regarding the Edgbaston test, Ashwin did do very well as a spinner. If the much fabled Indian batting couldn't chase 190 runs in the final innings, then that's not the fault of the spinner.

 

[Ab Fan]

You can call Lyon whatever names you want, but he turned in a match winning performance of 6/49 in England, something Ashwin has not been able to in his career so far including in that much hyped Edgbaston test the year before. He has his limitations but Lyon has had match winning innings in just about every country he has played while Ashwin hasn't. Even when he is not picking wickets like at the Gabba, he is still creating threat for the batsman and beating him almost every over whereas Ashwin gets played like a part-timer on his off-days.

He got that 6-fer when England were chasing 398. That match is actually one of Steve Smith's greatest performance away from home.

 

[jusarrived]

I can't stand Manju but he's right on this one . Ashwin has done well even overseas recently, but overall hes always been above average. Batsmen these days have no clue how to play spin, the defensive game has completely disappeared thanks to T20s . This makes a lot of these good spinners like Ashiwn, lyon and Jadeja look a lot better than they are.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

James Anderson's average in Asia: 27
R. Ashwin's average in SENA : 40

I'm not sure but I don't see any similarity here to even take the argument to the number of 5 fers. The notion of double standards is laughable. Sure it's one thing that Anderson would have loved to have on his CV - rip apart batting attacks in Asian conditions more often like Steyn did (although he did that recently in SL) but the fact remains that Anderson ticks far more boxes in Asia than Ashwin does overseas.

Has Anderson been a primary contributor in wins in Asia? - Yes
Has Anderson got his wickets at a very good average for a fast bowler in Subcontinent conditions? - Yes
Has Anderson displayed the longevity to significantly affect games in the Subcontinent across multiple tours? -Yes (Mumbai 2006 to Chennai 2021)


For Ashwin - Point 1 is arguable at best, Point 2 is an EASY No and Point 3 is a easy NO as well since he has been incredibly ineffective until the last 2-3 years in a 10+ year career.



You know this is the EXACT reason why Ashwin doesn't deserve to be in the discussion for ATGs any time soon. Dennis Lillee played FOUR tests in Asia and a wide majority of the online cricketing community makes it a point to mention his lack of performances in Asian conditions (rightfully so) at every point to discredit his status as an ATG.

And now we have you writing 50 lines of text to somehow convince people that a TWENTY TEST sample set is not enough to cast judgement on R. Ashwin's (lack) of performances in alien conditions. and that he somehow isn't as bad as his figures show.

The reason I posted the figures of the yesteryear's bowlers was to underline the point that a sizable number of bowlers who are now widely regarded to have been worse than Ashwin have peak performances that far outweigh Ashwin's overseas. If they can, why can't Ashwin? Over a 10 year career no less?



Sure, we are in agreement on that. Ashwin's performances at home are not in question, though Jadeja for all money is still a significantly better bowler on flat pitches.



I wonder why only Ashwin is so unlucky that he could never pick up that "tailender", why didn't the likes of:

Kumble
Harbhajan
Herath
Mushtaq
Saqlain
Qadir
Chandra
Bedi
Prasanna

miss that tailender wicket.

Why does only poor Ashwin always have to be one to miss that elusive tailender wicket?






Pot. Kettle. Black.

This is fun.

James Anderson's average in Asia: 27
R. Ashwin's average in SENA : 40

I suppose you thought this was supposed to be a BIG REVEAL uh?

Like I didn't know it?

The ONLY reason Ashwin averages 40 in SENA is due to those initial crazy tours of Aus on the deadest pitches known to mankind.

Heck post 2015, Ashwin averages 28 odd in SENA which includes 2 tours to Aus. What about that lol.

Did you know how much Anderson averaged in Aus when he landed there first?

Whopping 86. And he was a pacer and not a spinner lol.

Second tour he was amazing. Third tour woeful. Fourth tour good.

Ashwin was bad in first tour. Pretty decent in second tour. Similar stats to Lyon in second tour in the games they played together (which is INCREDIBLE considering our awful pace attack).

Great in 3rd and 4th tours.

Argument to completely obliterate your point

You call Anderson ATG. All good there.

Overall, he averages 35 in Aus.....32 in NZ....34 in SA....33 in SL...

How the heck is he ATG then?

Proactive: You can't look at stats that way. He improved later on and gave impactful performance.

Then what about Ashwin?

Proactive: I will only consider overall stats in his case cos James Anderson kare to chamatkar. Ashwin kare to balatkar. )

I'm not sure but I don't see any similarity here to even take the argument to the number of 5 fers. The notion of double standards is laughable.

Yes...it's laughable when I read your posts. lol.

Sure it's one thing that Anderson would have loved to have on his CV - rip apart batting attacks in Asian conditions more often like Steyn did (although he did that recently in SL) but the fact remains that Anderson ticks far more boxes in Asia than Ashwin does overseas.

Everyone agrees Anderson ticks more boxes than Ashwin.

The topic ain't that or even Ashwin being an ATG.

The topic is about your blatant hypocrisy which I won't stop exposing lol.

Has Anderson been a primary contributor in wins in Asia? - Yes
Has Anderson got his wickets at a very good average for a fast bowler in Subcontinent conditions? - Yes
Has Anderson displayed the longevity to significantly affect games in the Subcontinent across multiple tours? -Yes (Mumbai 2006 to Chennai 2021)

1. Has Ashwin been a primary contributor in wins in Aus? - Yes.
2. Has Ashwin got his wickets at a very good average for a spinner in SENA? Yes (post 2015) even tho it's technically not 100% fair to compare averages for spinners vs pacers cos the later has more tools to succeed in harsher conditions
3. Has Anderson displayed the longevity to significantly affect games in the Subcontinent across multiple tours? -Yes (Mumbai 2006 to Chennai 2021)? - He has displayed longevity in Asia but doesn't have the body of work in SENA to be rated at the same level as Anderson.

For Ashwin - Point 1 is arguable at best,

Sure if you are Proactive who will be a complete hypocrite here. Dude, that guy won you 2 series in Aus.

There is a limit to comedy )

Point 2 is an EASY No

WRONG AS USUAL.

and Point 3 is a easy NO as well since he has been incredibly ineffective until the last 2-3 years in a 10+ year career.

See finally you are seeing some light. Maybe there is some hope buddy.

You know this is the EXACT reason why Ashwin doesn't deserve to be in the discussion for ATGs any time soon. Dennis Lillee played FOUR tests in Asia and a wide majority of the online cricketing community makes it a point to mention his lack of performances in Asian conditions (rightfully so) at every point to discredit his status as an ATG.

Yet Dennis Lillee is widely rated as an ATG by fans and pundits except some random folks in forums.

Regardless, let's bring an irrelevant and tangential argument to the debate cos we are running out of valid points.

What's next?

Comparison with George Lohman....hehe

And now we have you writing 50 lines of text to somehow convince people that a TWENTY TEST sample set is not enough to cast judgement on R. Ashwin's (lack) of performances in alien conditions. and that he somehow isn't as bad as his figures show.

When someone gives the answer in a line or two.

Le Proactive: Meh. I will ignore that and pretend I never read it and go on a rampage with convenient data to match my hypocrosy.

When some explains each and every point in a detailed manner.

Le Proactive: If you need 50 lines to explain his performance, it ain't all that.

You should take up a career in comedy. )

You are KILLING me man.

KILLING ME.

The reason I posted the figures of the yesteryear's bowlers was to underline the point that a sizable number of bowlers who are now widely regarded to have been worse than Ashwin have peak performances that far outweigh Ashwin's overseas. If they can, why can't Ashwin? Over a 10 year career no less?

Just cos they have a better peak performance than Ashwin in a SINGLE innings doesn't invalidate Ashwin's contribution in SENA.

Moreover, your cut off is a 5fer and Ash doesn't have that tho he has 4fers.

How convenient?

I wonder why only Ashwin is so unlucky that he could never pick up that "tailender", why didn't the likes of:

Kumble
Harbhajan
Herath
Mushtaq
Saqlain
Qadir
Chandra
Bedi
Prasanna

miss that tailender wicket.

Why does only poor Ashwin always have to be one to miss that elusive tailender wicket?

Maybe he will get it soon. Not like sample set is huge.

But keep wondering or else how will we keep the strawman alive?

Summary:

1. Look man, I don't have an issue with you. I actually like the refreshing take you bring on. EXCEPT when you are biased and get it horribly wrong about those whom you clearly dislike. lol.

2. I am not here to change your opinion. I know I can't.

3. I am not here to address your points (for others sake) cos only the most biased will agree with your stance.

4. The reason I am responding to each and every single point of you is to let you be aware of your hypocritical stance. For the last few years, I have seen you post here, slamming certain players with faulty/convenient data while exhibiting outrageous double standards when it comes to Kohli, Ashwin, Rahane, Moeen Ali, Jaddu. Just now had the chance to engage with you.

5. You can throw in as many deflections, tangents, faulty data you want and they will all be swatted away until you are left with no choice but to face the reality of the situation or just IGNORE the entire thread.

6. Now of course, we will see how Ashwin does in England in WTC and the subsequent series but our debate is about his performances UNTIL NOW. So let's hope you don't change the goalposts then.

 

[Proactive_]

The ONLY reason Ashwin averages 40 in SENA is due to those initial crazy tours of Aus on the deadest pitches known to mankind.

Failures are failures. Not always as a cricketer you would get ideal conditions to ply your trade, and it more than evens out when Ashwin gets to feast on tailor made conditions at home - doesn't mean that Ashwin doesn't have the skill to do so; he still gets credit for his performances at home and making India close to unbeatable at home. In the same breath - he deserves to have all his away performances (good or bad) recognized as well.

Heck post 2015, Ashwin averages 28 odd in SENA which includes 2 tours to Aus. What about that lol.

Awesome.

Noe let's take out other Asian spinners' best phases in SENA (or even just Australia if you insist) and compare them with Ashwin's peak until now?

For instance, Kumble was the highest wicket taker (from both sides) averaging around 29 on the flattest pitches of the century against arguably the greatest batting line up of all time in 2003-04. Ashwin is 10 years into his career and it's fair to say he hasn't had a performance overseas over a quarter as good as that.

Did you know how much Anderson averaged in Aus when he landed there first?

Whopping 86. And he was a pacer and not a spinner lol.

Second tour he was amazing. Third tour woeful. Fourth tour good.

Ashwin was bad in first tour. Pretty decent in second tour. Similar stats to Lyon in second tour in the games they played together (which is INCREDIBLE considering our awful pace attack).

Great in 3rd and 4th tours.

Argument to completely obliterate your point

You call Anderson ATG. All good there.

Overall, he averages 35 in Aus.....32 in NZ....34 in SA....33 in SL...

How the heck is he ATG then?

Except the fact that you ignore how Anderson is criticized very regularly for his inadequacies and less than ideal returns in various countries. But compared to Ashwin I have no hesitation in saying that he is much much closer to getting that ATG tag which you seem to agree on as well.

Yes...it's laughable when I read your posts. lol.

Everyone agrees Anderson ticks more boxes than Ashwin.

The topic ain't that or even Ashwin being an ATG.

The topic is about your blatant hypocrisy which I won't stop exposing lol.

So you're basically responding to the poster and not the post.

Gotcha.

1. Has Ashwin been a primary contributor in wins in Aus? - Yes.
2. Has Ashwin got his wickets at a very good average for a spinner in SENA? Yes (post 2015) even tho it's technically not 100% fair to compare averages for spinners vs pacers cos the later has more tools to succeed in harsher conditions
3. Has Anderson displayed the longevity to significantly affect games in the Subcontinent across multiple tours? -Yes (Mumbai 2006 to Chennai 2021)? - He has displayed longevity in Asia but doesn't have the body of work in SENA to be rated at the same level as Anderson.



Sure if you are Proactive who will be a complete hypocrite here. Dude, that guy won you 2 series in Aus.

There is a limit to comedy )

Well it's quite a stretch to say that Ashwin "won" India two series in Australia. There's like half a dozen people whose contributions was at least as significant if not more in making that possible. Yeah but go on with your delusions dude.

Yet Dennis Lillee is widely rated as an ATG by fans and pundits except some random folks in forums.

Regardless, let's bring an irrelevant and tangential argument to the debate cos we are running out of valid points.

What's next?

Comparison with George Lohman....hehe

It's only irrelevant when one doesn't have a reasonable reply

Oldest trick in the book dude.

Just cos they have a better peak performance than Ashwin in a SINGLE innings doesn't invalidate Ashwin's contribution in SENA.

Moreover, your cut off is a 5fer and Ash doesn't have that tho he has 4fers.

How convenient?

You can keep the criteria as 3-fers if you wish. That's not even the argument. The argument is that a bowler who averages 40 combined in 4 major cricketing opponents also has his peak performances that are clearly inferior to what a significant number of other Asian spinners have been able to contribute in those said conditions. That's the perfect combo of mediocrity. You can slice and dice it any way you want.

Maybe he will get it soon. Not like sample set is huge.

I'm pretty sure that 20 Tests is indeed a huge sample set in cricketing terms. How many professional cricketers even get to play 20 Tests, let alone overseas?

Summary:

1. Look man, I don't have an issue with you. I actually like the refreshing take you bring on. EXCEPT when you are biased and get it horribly wrong about those whom you clearly dislike. lol.

2. I am not here to change your opinion. I know I can't.

3. I am not here to address your points (for others sake) cos only the most biased will agree with your stance.

4. The reason I am responding to each and every single point of you is to let you be aware of your hypocritical stance. For the last few years, I have seen you post here, slamming certain players with faulty/convenient data while exhibiting outrageous double standards when it comes to Kohli, Ashwin, Rahane, Moeen Ali, Jaddu. Just now had the chance to engage with you.

5. You can throw in as many deflections, tangents, faulty data you want and they will all be swatted away until you are left with no choice but to face the reality of the situation or just IGNORE the entire thread.

6. Now of course, we will see how Ashwin does in England in WTC and the subsequent series but our debate is about his performances UNTIL NOW. So let's hope you don't change the goalposts then.

Data is data. You can choose to ignore it but that doesn't make the data disappear off the face of the earth.

Also, what I get from the discussion thus far is that you're more fixated on what my general views on cricket are rather than replying to the arguments that I've been putting forth regarding Ashwin's performances. You're conveniently accusing me of trying to degrade Ashwin when in my very first post in this thread I've given him his due credit as an all round cricket (both home and overseas).

You can be as much of a fan of Ashwin as you want but sadly the cricketing history isn't that forgiving, and it will question Ashwin on whatever his inadequacies are.

 

[Snowflake]

Didn't know not calling someone an ATG could cook up such a storm!

An ATG is not a title you can throw around just like that. Ashwin is not at a level where an ATG tag for him is undisputed. People need to chill and respect the difference of opinion.

Also, did Ashwin really respond to this on Twitter? If so, that would be super childish! I'll call someone out because they don't consider me an ATG!

 

[AMSS]

Didn't know not calling someone an ATG could cook up such a storm!

An ATG is not a title you can throw around just like that. Ashwin is not at a level where an ATG tag for him is undisputed. People need to chill and respect the difference of opinion.

Also, did Ashwin really respond to this on Twitter? If so, that would be super childish! I'll call someone out because they don't consider me an ATG!

Strange post. I see no ''storm'' but a back and forth between two posters with strong views. Presenting a counter argument isn't really disrespecting a different opinion. And no, Ashwin didn't respond to Manju not considering him an ATG. He did laugh it off with a meme but that's owing to Manju's history with Jadeja.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Problem is not whether it is true or not. Problem is the idea of belittling a player who was clearly not bragging about himself. This unnecessary bitterness on twitter against a current player is disagraceful. Be it is Yuvraj or Bhajji or Manju targeting Ashwin pointlessly is distasteful. I know Ashwin became notorious after mankading. But even otherwise there are some Indian players who are bitter about his success. He has more man of the series awards than any other players in Indian history.

 

[MP2011]

Problem is not whether it is true or not. Problem is the idea of belittling a player who was clearly not bragging about himself. This unnecessary bitterness on twitter against a current player is disagraceful. Be it is Yuvraj or Bhajji or Manju targeting Ashwin pointlessly is distasteful. I know Ashwin became notorious after mankading. But even otherwise there are some Indian players who are bitter about his success. He has more man of the series awards than any other players in Indian history.

This. Well said. Did Yuvraj too diss Ashwin? Thats strange and so unlike Yuvraj.

 

[Ab Fan]

This. Well said. Did Yuvraj too diss Ashwin? Thats strange and so unlike Yuvraj.

Yuvraj didn't diss Ashwin. He just said that Kumble and Harbhajan would have taken a lot more wickets had they bowled on these wickets in 2000s decade. It was a general view and not dissing Ashwin in particular.

 

[MP2011]

Yuvraj didn't diss Ashwin. He just said that Kumble and Harbhajan would have taken a lot more wickets had they bowled on these wickets in 2000s decade. It was a general view and not dissing Ashwin in particular.

That's as good as dissing Ashwin's achievements.

 

[Cover Drive Six]

Ashwin is not an ATG.
Manjrekar need to stop belittling players based on his wish list.
Ashwin need to show some maturity and stop responding to cry baby Manjrekar.
Of late Ashwin is involving in everything on social media, his YouTube videos PR stunts are cringeworthy.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Failures are failures. Not always as a cricketer you would get ideal conditions to ply your trade, and it more than evens out when Ashwin gets to feast on tailor made conditions at home - doesn't mean that Ashwin doesn't have the skill to do so; he still gets credit for his performances at home and making India close to unbeatable at home. In the same breath - he deserves to have all his away performances (good or bad) recognized as well.



Awesome.

Noe let's take out other Asian spinners' best phases in SENA (or even just Australia if you insist) and compare them with Ashwin's peak until now?

For instance, Kumble was the highest wicket taker (from both sides) averaging around 29 on the flattest pitches of the century against arguably the greatest batting line up of all time in 2003-04. Ashwin is 10 years into his career and it's fair to say he hasn't had a performance overseas over a quarter as good as that.




Except the fact that you ignore how Anderson is criticized very regularly for his inadequacies and less than ideal returns in various countries. But compared to Ashwin I have no hesitation in saying that he is much much closer to getting that ATG tag which you seem to agree on as well.




So you're basically responding to the poster and not the post.

Gotcha.



Well it's quite a stretch to say that Ashwin "won" India two series in Australia. There's like half a dozen people whose contributions was at least as significant if not more in making that possible. Yeah but go on with your delusions dude.



It's only irrelevant when one doesn't have a reasonable reply

Oldest trick in the book dude.




You can keep the criteria as 3-fers if you wish. That's not even the argument. The argument is that a bowler who averages 40 combined in 4 major cricketing opponents also has his peak performances that are clearly inferior to what a significant number of other Asian spinners have been able to contribute in those said conditions. That's the perfect combo of mediocrity. You can slice and dice it any way you want.




I'm pretty sure that 20 Tests is indeed a huge sample set in cricketing terms. How many professional cricketers even get to play 20 Tests, let alone overseas?






Data is data. You can choose to ignore it but that doesn't make the data disappear off the face of the earth.

Also, what I get from the discussion thus far is that you're more fixated on what my general views on cricket are rather than replying to the arguments that I've been putting forth regarding Ashwin's performances. You're conveniently accusing me of trying to degrade Ashwin when in my very first post in this thread I've given him his due credit as an all round cricket (both home and overseas).

You can be as much of a fan of Ashwin as you want but sadly the cricketing history isn't that forgiving, and it will question Ashwin on whatever his inadequacies are.

Failures are failures. Not always as a cricketer you would get ideal conditions to ply your trade, and it more than evens out when Ashwin gets to feast on tailor made conditions at home - doesn't mean that Ashwin doesn't have the skill to do so; he still gets credit for his performances at home and making India close to unbeatable at home. In the same breath - he deserves to have all his away performances (good or bad) recognized as well.

Yes but no one is arguing the Ashwin is blame-less here.

This is a generic para that adds nothing to be convo mate.

Awesome.

Noe let's take out other Asian spinners' best phases in SENA (or even just Australia if you insist) and compare them with Ashwin's peak until now?

Arre bhai...

There is a difference between players whose careers have ended and those whose hasn't.

If Ashwin's career had ended, and people took out his best performances and compared just that ignoring his bad ones, you would have a point.

Also there is something called as career trajectory.

Pant is called Gilly 2.0.

Steve Smith is called potential GOAT in tests.

Does that mean Pant is the same as Gilly? Or has the body of work of Gilly?

Or that Steve Smith is in the league of Tendu/Lara?

Of course not.

But the TRAJECTORY they are on....puts them on that league.

They may hit it.

Or they may fall short.

But they are rated for their trajectory.

Same goes for Ashwin.

He didn't do well in SENA.

Then he started doing well in SENA. Started off slow but built up steam and did very well in Aus 2020.

In fact, I use this very reason to claim he is not an ATG. If he flops in England and other SENA countries....would people consider him an ATG?

Of course not. Hence he ain't one.

For instance, Kumble was the highest wicket taker (from both sides) averaging around 29 on the flattest pitches of the century against arguably the greatest batting line up of all time in 2003-04. Ashwin is 10 years into his career and it's fair to say he hasn't had a performance overseas over a quarter as good as that.

Incredible series no doubt.

But you are talking as if Kumble had such series every now and then.

Dude had a similar story to Ashwin.

Struggled overseas before getting good.

By the way, the same series, Kumble had MOUNTAIN of runs to play with.

Ashwin barely had anything to defend.

What about that?

it's fair to say he hasn't had a performance overseas over a quarter as good as that.

You see, its ** like this why I will keep contesting all your points.

Your intellectual dishonesty is next level.

Ghanta fair.

Except the fact that you ignore how Anderson is criticized very regularly for his inadequacies and less than ideal returns in various countries. But compared to Ashwin I have no hesitation in saying that he is much much closer to getting that ATG tag which you seem to agree on as well.

No one is IGNORING the fact.

In fact, atleast they have a SET criteria with which they judge both Anderson and Ashwin.

Personally I might not agree with all their views but hey, they aren't being hypocrites.

You will praise Anderson for his performances in India, bleating about it in dozens of thread, while denigrating the same level of Ashwin performances in Aus.

So you're basically responding to the poster and not the post.

Posts have no substance and they have been countered with not just data but also using the same yardstick the poster uses for his preferred cricketers.

So time to focus on the poster who has a pattern of this behavior. lol.

Well it's quite a stretch to say that Ashwin "won" India two series in Australia. There's like half a dozen people whose contributions was at least as significant if not more in making that possible. Yeah but go on with your delusions dude.

Same way, Anderson GHANTA won anything in India.

Especially 2012.

Cook, Pietersen, Monty, Swann did great things and Anderson went and added his punch in the 3rd test (of a 4 test series lol).

Yet that doesn't stop you from exalting his performances.

Nothing against Anderson but just exposing the flimsy excuses you have.

On the contrary, Ashwin was the one leading the charge from test 1. He started the blows on test 2.....and saved test 3 before bowing out.

If you rate Anderson's 2012 and 2021 performances...while not rating Ashwin's 2018 and 2020 performances...that says a LOT about your delusions.

Not mine.

It's only irrelevant when one doesn't have a reasonable reply

Oldest trick in the book dude.

No.

Taking a tangential point when you don't have answers to counter is one of the OLDEST tricks in the book.

Are you seriously thinking I am unable to address your points when all your points (including cherry picked data) are actually getting falling like a pack of flies? lol.

You can keep the criteria as 3-fers if you wish. That's not even the argument. The argument is that a bowler who averages 40 combined in 4 major cricketing opponents also has his peak performances that are clearly inferior to what a significant number of other Asian spinners have been able to contribute in those said conditions. That's the perfect combo of mediocrity. You can slice and dice it any way you want.

REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM.

Reminds me of the Leanard-Sheldon-Penny scene in Big Bang theory. Haha.

Talk about tricks.

No one said their criteria is a 3fer. lol.

The argument was that Ashwin did the same in Aus as Anderson did in India yet one is exalted while other is mocked.

As for average of 40, keep bleating the same old nonsense bro.

I gave you the post 2015 stats.

Also Anderson averages 30-40 in multiple countries. Yet you rate him as ATG due to "context".

I'm pretty sure that 20 Tests is indeed a huge sample set in cricketing terms. How many professional cricketers even get to play 20 Tests, let alone overseas?

Yeah, I will NOT rate when Ashwin performs well.

I will NOT rate when he performs above average.

I will HARP on the instances when he flops.

And I will ignore the fact that in the 20 tests, he barely had few tests (except the Aus 2011 and 2015 series) where there was anything to bowl at.

Even if presented with data.

But I am a pillar of rationality.

No matter how much you slice and dice it, Ashwin is mediocre in SENA.

Also, what I get from the discussion thus far is that you're more fixated on what my general views on cricket are rather than replying to the arguments that I've been putting forth regarding Ashwin's performances. You're conveniently accusing me of trying to degrade Ashwin when in my very first post in this thread I've given him his due credit as an all round cricket (both home and overseas).

Are you getting that just now dude?

My main post is to talk about your hypocritical standpoint.

Ashwin's stats are clear.

His standing in cricket is clear (great at home/Asia while he has to prove himself more in SENA).

When you start your post saying a bowler has no standout performances...along with the history of weird posts.....obviously people will respond to it.

Moreover, if there's any doubt as to where you stand, look at the responses you have made in this thread.

You don't have to rate him or like him. But my posts are all focused on your bogus metrics and double standards.

You can be as much of a fan of Ashwin as you want but sadly the cricketing history isn't that forgiving, and it will question Ashwin on whatever his inadequacies are.

It will question Ashwin.

And so will I.

But who knows....10 years down the line, you may come back to PP and read your old posts and probably be shocked at how biased you were against some players.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Awesome.

Noe let's take out other Asian spinners' best phases in SENA (or even just Australia if you insist) and compare them with Ashwin's peak until now?

For instance, Kumble was the highest wicket taker (from both sides) averaging around 29 on the flattest pitches of the century against arguably the greatest batting line up of all time in 2003-04. Ashwin is 10 years into his career and it's fair to say he hasn't had a performance overseas over a quarter as good as that..

Adding to the previous post, Kumble's performance in 2004 is greater.

A few points:

1. It's not about peak but consistency of performance & impact.

2. This discussion ain't about Ashwin vs Kumble.

3. Meanwhile, do it for Bhajji (whoise name you included) and results will be comedy lol. There is no SENA performance of Bhajji thats in the same league as this.

Also a small point you conveniently forgot:

I mentioned post 2015 numbers that in response to THIS point of yours

James Anderson's average in Asia: 27
R. Ashwin's average in SENA : 40

You took it in a different direction.

Meanwhile, compare Ashwin's performance against his peers who had to face Aus in these dead pitches.

Heaven and earth difference.

"But but they are not good enough even tho Swann is in this list lol. So I will take past spinners, assume they would have NAILED it in this situation (even tho most of them averaged bad in most tours) and argue."

 

[Ab Fan]

Ashwin is having a similar career trajectory as Anderson and Kumble. They were poor in the first half at home but got better in the latter half of their career.

The one thing in which Anderson may have an edge is the fact that he is the only fast bowler to have 600+ test wickets to his name. So, he is way ahead of rest in longevity.

Kumble also had 600+ test wickets but unfortunately for him, it came in an era when Murali and Warne also had 800 and 700 test wickets and at a much lower average.

Ashwin is arguably more dominant at home than Kumble but it can be argued that the reason behind it is the difference in pitches of 2000s and 2010s till now. If Ashwin can deliver a few more standout performance overseas, then he should be rated as ATG in my opinion. His batting is Hadlee level.

 

[Proactive_]

Arre bhai...

There is a difference between players whose careers have ended and those whose hasn't.

If Ashwin's career had ended, and people took out his best performances and compared just that ignoring his bad ones, you would have a point.

Also there is something called as career trajectory.

Pant is called Gilly 2.0.

Steve Smith is called potential GOAT in tests.

Does that mean Pant is the same as Gilly? Or has the body of work of Gilly?

Or that Steve Smith is in the league of Tendu/Lara?

Of course not.

But the TRAJECTORY they are on....puts them on that league.

They may hit it.

Or they may fall short.

But they are rated for their trajectory.

Same goes for Ashwin.

He didn't do well in SENA.

Then he started doing well in SENA. Started off slow but built up steam and did very well in Aus 2020.

In fact, I use this very reason to claim he is not an ATG. If he flops in England and other SENA countries....would people consider him an ATG?

Of course not. Hence he ain't one.

Dude Ashwin will be 35 this September and is 10+ years into his career. You're talking about "trajectory" as if he's 28 and about to tear the world apart in the next 5 years

If his career were a basketball game he would be well into the fourth quarter here at this point, especially considering his dodgy fitness.

Incredible series no doubt.

But you are talking as if Kumble had such series every now and then.

Dude had a similar story to Ashwin.

Struggled overseas before getting good.

By the way, the same series, Kumble had MOUNTAIN of runs to play with.

Ashwin barely had anything to defend.

What about that?

Kumble took 13 wickets in 3 Tests @ 29 in SA in 96/97. He was 26-27 at that point. That's arguably a better performance than whatever Ashwin (who is close to 35) has managed to contribute overseas.

No one is IGNORING the fact.

In fact, atleast they have a SET criteria with which they judge both Anderson and Ashwin.

Personally I might not agree with all their views but hey, they aren't being hypocrites.

You will praise Anderson for his performances in India, bleating about it in dozens of thread, while denigrating the same level of Ashwin performances in Aus.

Where did I denigrate Ashwin's performance in Australia? I just made the very plausible observation that
he didn't really have that great of a performance there that you seem to think for some reason, even saying that Ashwin "won" India two series in Australia when he wasn't even the best Indian bowler in the two Australian tours (which was easily Bumrah).

Of course he had valuable contributions there but nowhere near to what other Asian spinners' peak performances have been overseas (another fair observation backed by stats).

Same way, Anderson GHANTA won anything in India.

Especially 2012.

Cook, Pietersen, Monty, Swann did great things and Anderson went and added his punch in the 3rd test (of a 4 test series lol).

Yet that doesn't stop you from exalting his performances.

Nothing against Anderson but just exposing the flimsy excuses you have.

On the contrary, Ashwin was the one leading the charge from test 1. He started the blows on test 2.....and saved test 3 before bowing out.

If you rate Anderson's 2012 and 2021 performances...while not rating Ashwin's 2018 and 2020 performances...that says a LOT about your delusions.

Not mine.

If there isn't a plausible difference between Ashwin's performance in SENA and Anderson's performance in Asia then why does the former average 40 and latter 27?

You are fair to think that Anderson didn't dominate Asian conditions like Steyn did but it's hilarious to say that there is any comparison to what Ashwin's performances have been in SENA. Anderson is on another level.


Are you seriously thinking I am unable to address your points when all your points (including cherry picked data) are actually getting falling like a pack of flies? lol.

No one said their criteria is a 3fer. lol.

The argument was that Ashwin did the same in Aus as Anderson did in India yet one is exalted while other is mocked.

As for average of 40, keep bleating the same old nonsense bro.

I gave you the post 2015 stats.

Also Anderson averages 30-40 in multiple countries. Yet you rate him as ATG due to "context".

As addressed multiple times before - you are free to think that Anderson isn't an ATG because he didn't dominate in Asian conditions, that's completely fair. But this ridiculous notion that Anderson's performances in Asia aren't any better than Ashwin's in SENA is simply hilarious. Sorry. Anderson averages 13 runs better and has better peak performances. End of the story.

You can keep coming out with your funny narrations like "Ashwin was the only one who looked like taking a wicket" and "Ashwin won India two test series in Australia"

Yeah, I will NOT rate when Ashwin performs well.

I will NOT rate when he performs above average.

I will HARP on the instances when he flops.

And I will ignore the fact that in the 20 tests, he barely had few tests (except the Aus 2011 and 2015 series) where there was anything to bowl at.

Even if presented with data.

But I am a pillar of rationality.

No matter how much you slice and dice it, Ashwin is mediocre in SENA.

Ok let's end your another strawman myth as well that Ashwin "hasn't got the opportunity to bowl enough in SENA"

Ashwin has bowled close to 883 overs in SENA averaging 40 taking 63 wickets.

Let's look at some of the "lesser" Asian spin bowlers:

Mushtaq Ahmed - 859 overs - 84 wickets @ 28
Saqlain - 503 overs - 40 wickets @ 34
R.Shastri - 723 overs - 47 wickets @ 34
Chandra - 832 overs - 71 wickets @ 31
Jadeja - 525 overs - 41 wickets @ 35
Iqbal Qasim - 348 overs - 29 wickets @ 31
Shivlal Yadav - 338 overs - 24 wickets @ 31
Shakib - 271 overs - 28 wickets @ 31

So you still mean 900 overs is not enough bowling Just keep bringing all these non sensical narrations dude. Only takes 10 mins to debunk.

Are you getting that just now dude?

My main post is to talk about your hypocritical standpoint.

Ashwin's stats are clear.

His standing in cricket is clear (great at home/Asia while he has to prove himself more in SENA).

When you start your post saying a bowler has no standout performances...along with the history of weird posts.....obviously people will respond to it.

Moreover, if there's any doubt as to where you stand, look at the responses you have made in this thread.

You don't have to rate him or like him. But my posts are all focused on your bogus metrics and double standards.



It will question Ashwin.

And so will I.

But who knows....10 years down the line, you may come back to PP and read your old posts and probably be shocked at how biased you were against some players.

There are no double standards. I've backed up all my assertions with facts not fiction like you have been to try to justify Ashwin's below average performances in alien conditions over the course of a TEN year career. That's real bias that you've been exhibiting.

As a matter of fact, I've said multiple times that Ashwin is a very useful all round cricketer in all conditions and that he is closer to being an ATG all rounder than an ATG bowler, that sounds bias to you?

 

[street cricketer]

[MENTION=145164]Proactive_[/MENTION] [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION]

Guys just settle the debate by having an arm wrestling match.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

[MENTION=145164]Proactive_[/MENTION] [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION]

Guys just settle the debate by having an arm wrestling match.

There is no debate.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Dude Ashwin will be 35 this September and is 10+ years into his career. You're talking about "trajectory" as if he's 28 and about to tear the world apart in the next 5 years

If his career were a basketball game he would be well into the fourth quarter here at this point, especially considering his dodgy fitness.








Kumble took 13 wickets in 3 Tests @ 29 in SA in 96/97. He was 26-27 at that point. That's arguably a better performance than whatever Ashwin (who is close to 35) has managed to contribute overseas.




Where did I denigrate Ashwin's performance in Australia? I just made the very plausible observation that
he didn't really have that great of a performance there that you seem to think for some reason, even saying that Ashwin "won" India two series in Australia when he wasn't even the best Indian bowler in the two Australian tours (which was easily Bumrah).

Of course he had valuable contributions there but nowhere near to what other Asian spinners' peak performances have been overseas (another fair observation backed by stats).




If there isn't a plausible difference between Ashwin's performance in SENA and Anderson's performance in Asia then why does the former average 40 and latter 27?

You are fair to think that Anderson didn't dominate Asian conditions like Steyn did but it's hilarious to say that there is any comparison to what Ashwin's performances have been in SENA. Anderson is on another level.


Are you seriously thinking I am unable to address your points when all your points (including cherry picked data) are actually getting falling like a pack of flies? lol.





As addressed multiple times before - you are free to think that Anderson isn't an ATG because he didn't dominate in Asian conditions, that's completely fair. But this ridiculous notion that Anderson's performances in Asia aren't any better than Ashwin's in SENA is simply hilarious. Sorry. Anderson averages 13 runs better and has better peak performances. End of the story.

You can keep coming out with your funny narrations like "Ashwin was the only one who looked like taking a wicket" and "Ashwin won India two test series in Australia"







Ok let's end your another strawman myth as well that Ashwin "hasn't got the opportunity to bowl enough in SENA"

Ashwin has bowled close to 883 overs in SENA averaging 40 taking 63 wickets.

Let's look at some of the "lesser" Asian spin bowlers:

Mushtaq Ahmed - 859 overs - 84 wickets @ 28
Saqlain - 503 overs - 40 wickets @ 34
R.Shastri - 723 overs - 47 wickets @ 34
Chandra - 832 overs - 71 wickets @ 31
Jadeja - 525 overs - 41 wickets @ 35
Iqbal Qasim - 348 overs - 29 wickets @ 31
Shivlal Yadav - 338 overs - 24 wickets @ 31
Shakib - 271 overs - 28 wickets @ 31

So you still mean 900 overs is not enough bowling Just keep bringing all these non sensical narrations dude. Only takes 10 mins to debunk.









There are no double standards. I've backed up all my assertions with facts not fiction like you have been to try to justify Ashwin's below average performances in alien conditions over the course of a TEN year career. That's real bias that you've been exhibiting.

As a matter of fact, I've said multiple times that Ashwin is a very useful all round cricketer in all conditions and that he is closer to being an ATG all rounder than an ATG bowler, that sounds bias to you?

Ok let me address your post in a concise manner this time cos its getting boring and you are missing the point again and again.

Dude Ashwin will be 35 this September and is 10+ years into his career. You're talking about "trajectory" as if he's 28 and about to tear the world apart in the next 5 years

Wrong mate.

Reason 1 - Spinners usually mature late.

Reason 2 - Some players are destined to be ATGs (Sachin, Lara, Ponting, Kohli, etc). Some players become ATGs (Sanga, Anderson). The latter usually become ATGs in their late 30s. Ashwin may or may not. Time will tell. Heck, the fact that there is even a debate about it right now among experts is proof of that.

Kumble took 13 wickets in 3 Tests @ 29 in SA in 96/97. He was 26-27 at that point. That's arguably a better performance than whatever Ashwin (who is close to 35) has managed to contribute overseas.

Sure, if you are Proactive.

Wrong too.

By the way, Kumble averaged 48 in SA 1996 away series. He averaged 25 in 1992 SA series. Maybe you are referring to that.

I don't know enough about that series to comment about that. Looks a great performance. Did you notice one thing: You don't even know the details of that series properly yet its better than what Ashwin has done till date.

Where did I denigrate Ashwin's performance in Australia? I just made the very plausible observation that
he didn't really have that great of a performance there that you seem to think for some reason, even saying that Ashwin "won" India two series in Australia when he wasn't even the best Indian bowler in the two Australian tours (which was easily Bumrah).

"No standout performance in SENA."

"Kumble's some series in SA is better than what Ashwin has done even tho I don't even remember the series."

"Anderson has outbowled Indian bowlers and won series in India inspite of no 5fers but Ashwin doesn't even have a standout performance and no 5fers".

Do I have to explain a simple point a MILLION time for you to get?

I clearly gave the example of you using Anderson's contribution in 2012 where he came to the fore in 3rd test and compared it with Ashwin who was right on the money from ball 1. If you rate Anderson's performance in India (which you do), then stop this whole charade of "no standout performance".

Your OWN logic has been used against you. End of the topic.

You are fair to think that Anderson didn't dominate Asian conditions like Steyn did but it's hilarious to say that there is any comparison to what Ashwin's performances have been in SENA. Anderson is on another level.

Anderson > Ashwin (overall).

Issue ain't that.

But your comedy logic and hypocrisy is the issue.

Ok let's end your another strawman myth as well that Ashwin "hasn't got the opportunity to bowl enough in SENA"

Ashwin has bowled close to 883 overs in SENA averaging 40 taking 63 wickets.

Let's look at some of the "lesser" Asian spin bowlers:

Mushtaq Ahmed - 859 overs - 84 wickets @ 28
Saqlain - 503 overs - 40 wickets @ 34
R.Shastri - 723 overs - 47 wickets @ 34
Chandra - 832 overs - 71 wickets @ 31
Jadeja - 525 overs - 41 wickets @ 35
Iqbal Qasim - 348 overs - 29 wickets @ 31
Shivlal Yadav - 338 overs - 24 wickets @ 31
Shakib - 271 overs - 28 wickets @ 31

So you still mean 900 overs is not enough bowling Just keep bringing all these non sensical narrations dude. Only takes 10 mins to debunk.

Wrong again mate.

Out of the 900 overs, Ashwin bowled 339 on the deadest picthes (2011 and 2015) with minimal fast bowling support.

In the other 561 overs, this happened:

Career: 32.80 average. 71 SR.
Post 2015: 466 overs. 29 average. 71 SR.

Compare that to performance of overseas spinners in Aus.

Swann 52.
Kumble 37.
Bhajji lol.
Murali 70 odd.
Saqlain 34

They didn't bowl on these same dead pitches. And didn't always have a horrible pace attack. But they bowled to way better batsman. But if you follow cricket, you will know how much easy it is for scoring runs on dead pitches.

England scored a gazzilion in India when the pitch was dead in Chennai day 1-2....and then couldn't buy a run later on in any of the future pitches. Even struggled against NZ at home.

Dead pitches are a real deal which is why I argue against those who put down Kumble due to some performances in SL and Pak on absolutely dead pitches. Any tom, dick and harry can smash you on those tracks.

Must have taken a lot of time to compile those stats eh

Oh well.

There are no double standards. I've backed up all my assertions with facts not fiction like you have been to try to justify Ashwin's below average performances in alien conditions over the course of a TEN year career. That's real bias that you've been exhibiting.

You can't even address your double standards reg how your rate Anderson's performance in India vs Ashwin's in Aus.

"No standout performance by Ash" vs "Anderson outbowling indian bowlers" - That argument alone says a volume.

As a matter of fact, I've said multiple times that Ashwin is a very useful all round cricketer in all conditions and that he is closer to being an ATG all rounder than an ATG bowler, that sounds bias to you?

Making crazy claims and throwing a bone at the end doesn't mean your claims are right mate.

I agree with your final premise. Ashwin ain't an ATG. He is more closer to being an ATG AR (or cricketer) than a bowler. This has been my view for a long time too.

The issue is the other claims you make in this thread plus your past claims like ......how he was a mudpit bowler, how he can't bowl in SENA, etc, etc....all while using a different yardstick for another bowler.

 

[Rajdeep]

Though I dont like Sanjay Manjrekar but he is right in saying Ashwin is not an ATG. Yes he had a good recent Australia series but his overall avg in Eng, SA and Aust is very poor to be considered as a great of the game. He is a very good bowler in Sub continent no doubt but to become an ATG he need to perform everywhere. I think in the history of cricket, there has only been 2 real ATG spinners - Warne and Murali, even then there is a caveat on the later.