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Ravichandran Ashwin vs Graeme Swann vs Saeed Ajmal - Who is/was the better Test off-spinner?

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Who do you consider the best off spinner among the 3 in the test format? No discussions about their batting contribution/ LOI performances please.
 
Ashwin has better stats, gutsy bowler and clean bowler
Swann is a quitter
Ajmal is a chucker

Pointless thread.
 
Ajmal is a chucker. He shouldn't be anywhere near these discussions. Of the remaining two, it's Swann. If Ashwin improves his record in England & South Africa, both countries where he played very few matches in, then he can edge him out.
 
Ajmal doesnt even count because he was chucking them.
 
Agreed, Ajmal should not be considered.

Astonishingly, Ashwin has as many test wickets as Swann, in 17 fewer tests. I would have to say Ashwin. He has not done well in Australia but Swann was not much better there - fingerspinners tend not to do well there. Ashwin is world class at home but travels to most places pretty well too.
 
Why Ajmal???? Don't you know he is a chucker???
Ashwin vs Swann- My votes goes to Swann for taking wickets in more challenging conditions...He was also better bowler than Ashwin in ODIs
 
I had a feeling Swann was better and to confirm it just reviewed some of Swann's performances.

In Australia - 8 Matches, 22 Wickets @ 52.59
Bangladesh - 2, 16 @ 25.25
England - 32, 120 @ 28.94
India - 6, 28 @ 28.96
SA - 4, 21 @ 31.38
SL - 2, 16 @ 22.18
UAE - 3, 13 @ 25.07
WI - 3, 19 @ 24.05

Same numbers for Ashwin stand at:

In Australia - 6 Matches, 21 Wickets @ 54.71
Bangladesh - 1, 5 @ 19
England - 2, 3 @ 33.66
India - 26, 180 @ 20.87
SA - 1, 0 @ NA
SL - 3, 21 @ 18.09
UAE - 0, 0 @ 0
WI - 4, 17 @ 23.17

Not really overwhelming in terms of difference outside India, is it? If anything, the only thing that can be said now is that this discussion should be shelved off till Ashwin has played more games outside. And in India, they are not even on the same ballpark.

Overall, considering his continuous improvement as a spinner I think he probably is better than Swann. You would have to remember that Swann was pretty much an experienced and finished article when he came on to mainstream view.
 
Ashwin is probably better and more skilled. Also will leave every other off spinner post 2007 in the dust.

But man he had such a smooth, beautiful action.

And as clean as a bowling action can get really
 
Which Ajmal?

The one till 2013 who was a bowler or the chucker?
 
So 3 to Ashwin, 4 to Swann and none to Ajmal. Will be great to have a poll on this.
 
Ashwin has overtaken Swann now, and Ajmal cannot be considered.
 
Swann for me. I'm afraid Ashwin still has a lot to prove outside India. Ajmal isn't even worth mentioning in the conversation.
 
Ashwin is better than Swann now. Ajmal was a chucker so not interested in his figures,etc.
 
Swann for me.

Ashwin is excellent and will surpass him soon enough
 
Ajmal was miles better in LOIs.

In tests, I would say Ajmal, followed closely by Swann. Ashwin is ways behind because even though he's as good as these two in Asia and West Indies, he has had zero impact in the other four countries.
 
Bilal7 said:
Ajmal was miles better in LOIs.

In tests, I would say Ajmal, followed closely by Swann. Ashwin is ways behind because even though he's as good as these two in Asia and West Indies, he has had zero impact in the other four countries.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned, this isn't about LOIs or about batting prowess.

Any way, would like to know why you rate Ajmal more than Swann?

Purely on numbers.....Swann had better average in:

Australia (Ajmal averages 112 - lucky enough not to play more than 1 game (got dropped)...Swann played 8 tests on those graveyards for off break bowlers!!!)
South Africa
Sri Lanka (Ajmal has +10 average)
UAE
England and
Bangladesh

Swann didn't play in NZ but considering his consistency would have averaged better than Ajmal (~60).

Ajmal performed amazingly in West Indies and Zimbabwe though where he took 37 wickets @ 19!! Swann was unlucky not to play in latter and has done decently in WI (avg 24).

On the other hand Swann played 6 games against the best team against spin, India and you know how he did there. ;-)

For me, Swann is the clear winner among the 3.
 
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Ajmal was a chucker.. so lets DSQ him.

Ashwin >> Swann (in Asia)
Swann~~Ashwin (outside Asia)

Since, as a standard rule: ALL PERFORMANCES in ASIA COUNT FOR CRAP.

Swann >> Ashwin
(extra points to Swann for being a non-Asian and -ve points for the Indian on a Pakistani Cricket forum)
 
Metron said:
Ajmal was a chucker.. so lets DSQ him.

Ashwin >> Swann (in Asia)
Swann~~Ashwin (outside Asia)

Since, as a standard rule: ALL PERFORMANCES in ASIA COUNT FOR CRAP.

Swann >> Ashwin
(extra points to Swann for being a non-Asian and -ve points for the Indian on a Pakistani Cricket forum)
Click to expand...

Metron has Nailed it. As simple as it gets when it comes to how cricketing logic works. :))
 
Metron said:
Ajmal was a chucker.. so lets DSQ him.

Ashwin >> Swann (in Asia)
Swann~~Ashwin (outside Asia)

Since, as a standard rule: ALL PERFORMANCES in ASIA COUNT FOR CRAP.

Swann >> Ashwin
(extra points to Swann for being a non-Asian and -ve points for the Indian on a Pakistani Cricket forum)
Click to expand...

Wait. How is that?
 
Ashwin has improved a lot in the last year or so. He should end up with a much better career than Swan. Ajmal doesn't belong in this discussion.
 
Ashwin might be better than Swann but I would still go with Swann. Loved his bowling and he had such a beautiful action.
 
Swann. Had to bowl in England for most of his career. Ashwin needs to perform decently in a couple of places outside Asia/WI to be considered. Ajmal should not be considered at all.
 
Ashwin has 7 man of the series. Scary 5 wicket haul ratio which is on par with Murali's 5 wicket haul. You are going by comparing the worst of bowlers. Compare them when they are at their best. How many times Swann has actually run through sides.
 
Metron said:
Ajmal was a chucker.. so lets DSQ him.

Ashwin >> Swann (in Asia)
Swann~~Ashwin (outside Asia)

Since, as a standard rule: ALL PERFORMANCES in ASIA COUNT FOR CRAP.

Swann >> Ashwin
(extra points to Swann for being a non-Asian and -ve points for the Indian on a Pakistani Cricket forum)
Click to expand...

Hello there Inzamam...


On a serious note for a spinner it does hold a bit of weight. Asia is where conditions for spinner are easy so if you perform better away, you are definitely more skilled.
 
Ashwin easily. In ODI's Ajmal was better definitely but then he was allowed to chuck for quite a while.

Ashwin was always smart, he only lacked the skills. He's got plenty of it now and its a dangerous combination. People are talking about Kohli overtaking SRT but no one is seeing how quickly Ashwin is raking up numbers in the wicket column, he could be a serious contender to get close to Murali's tally.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Swann. Had to bowl in England for most of his career. Ashwin needs to perform decently in a couple of places outside Asia/WI to be considered. Ajmal should not be considered at all.
Click to expand...

Will you rate Asian fast bowlers as being far better bowlers than Non-Asian fast bowlers using the same logic ? :)
 
Ashwin's domination is similar to Steyn bullying weak teams at home. Both are quality bowlers but couldn't ask for better bowling conditions and more inept opposition.

Steyn had four of the world's best player of seam bowling on his team. Similarly Ashwin will never have to bowl to players like Kohli, Vijay, Pujara.
 
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Dislike the guy, but swann would definitely be my pick in Tests.

Ajmal for LOI.
 
Its between Swann or Ashwin.

Ashwin has to take a few fifers outside Asia to surpass Swann and claim the ATG bowler tag.

Till then its Swann.

Ajmal doesn't come into discussion.
 
Tusker said:
Will you rate Asian fast bowlers as being far better bowlers than Non-Asian fast bowlers using the same logic ? :)
Click to expand...

No I don't. Quality fast bowlers should do well in all conditions. Spinners need more assistance from the wicket to be successful.
 
Statsman said:
As I mentioned, this isn't about LOIs or about batting prowess.

Any way, would like to know why you rate Ajmal more than Swann?

Purely on numbers.....Swann had better average in:

Australia (Ajmal averages 112 - lucky enough not to play more than 1 game (got dropped)...Swann played 8 tests on those graveyards for off break bowlers!!!)
South Africa
Sri Lanka (Ajmal has +10 average)
UAE
England and
Bangladesh

Swann didn't play in NZ but considering his consistency would have averaged better than Ajmal (~60).

Ajmal performed amazingly in West Indies and Zimbabwe though where he took 37 wickets @ 19!! Swann was unlucky not to play in latter and has done decently in WI (avg 24).

On the other hand Swann played 6 games against the best team against spin, India and you know how he did there. ;-)

For me, Swann is the clear winner among the 3.
Click to expand...

Good post. It's very close between Ajmal and Swann, I personally rate the former higher because of the way he carried out bowling attack single-handedly after the spot-fixing debacle. But you make some good points for why Swann should be rated higher.
 
So basically the question is Ashwin Vs Swann. (chuckers do not count as bowlers in the first place.)


Maybe a few more tours and Ashwin's picture will become clearer?
 
Ab Fan said:
Its between Swann or Ashwin.

Ashwin has to take a few fifers outside Asia to surpass Swann and claim the ATG bowler tag.

Till then its Swann.

Ajmal doesn't come into discussion.
Click to expand...

Like Ashwin, Swann was pathetic in Australia too. So I don't understand how this "away" logic works for some here.

If anything, Ashwin being leagues above Swann in countries like India, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh should make the comparison extremely one-sided in Ashwin's favor.
 
Cricfan4eva said:
Hello there Inzamam...


On a serious note for a spinner it does hold a bit of weight. Asia is where conditions for spinner are easy so if you perform better away, you are definitely more skilled.
Click to expand...

Does that mean we should count for fast bowlers' Asia performance only?

On those lines somebody provide how to weigh batting performances.. or the same rules applies as for Spin bowlers: Performance in Asia don't Count??
 
Ashwin and Swann cancel each other out in Australia. Swann was part of a winning series there and Ashwin was not. Both got whitewashed at one point there. I give Swann the edge here.
Swann had an outstanding tour of South Africa and Ashwin did not but he has played just one test there so too soon to judge him there.
Ashwin has destroyed oppositions in India to a much bigger degree than Swann has in England.
Both have been very good in Sri Lanka though Ashwin won India a series there in 20 odd years.
Both were good in West Indies and Ashwin again won India a series unlike Swann who lost the series there due to a freakish session.

Ultimately, Ashwin needs to perform in South Africa and England to remove any and all doubt but he is already ahead of Swann IMO and I have not even talked about his batting and Swann's controversial decision to retire mid-tour.

Oh what's that? There was a third person in the convo too? Sorry, bowlers only. Javelin players can go elsewhere.
 
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Metron said:
Does that mean we should count for fast bowlers' Asia performance only?

On those lines somebody provide how to weigh batting performances.. or the same rules applies as for Spin bowlers: Performance in Asia don't Count??
Click to expand...

Every good spinner can bowl well on turners, every good pacer on green tracks and every good batsman can bat solidly on roads. That is an important base to have but a great player needs to perform in conditions that are not easy for them.
 
Bilal7 said:
Every good spinner can bowl well on turners, every good pacer on green tracks and every good batsman can bat solidly on roads. That is an important base to have but a great player needs to perform in conditions that are not easy for them.
Click to expand...

Again, So by your logic
Spinners : outside Asia,
Pacers: Asia,
Batsmen :??????
 
Bilal7 said:
Your answers are in my post. Read it again.
Click to expand...

Dude, your answer is without logic. It doesn't explain where a batsman's performance should be counted.
are we looking for the least worst performances to judge the greatness of a player??
 
Zak_Fan said:
Like Ashwin, Swann was pathetic in Australia too. So I don't understand how this "away" logic works for some here.

If anything, Ashwin being leagues above Swann in countries like India, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh should make the comparison extremely one-sided in Ashwin's favor.
Click to expand...

Swann has done extremely well in far lesser spin conditions like England and SA and won them games there.He averages 25 in Asia.

Let Ash do something worth memorable outside Asia before we make any conclusion only on basis of his impact in India and other lesser profile teams like SL and WI.

So until he gets a few fifer in those places (not asking him to average <30 everywhere) its Swann there without any sort of doubt.
 
Metron said:
Does that mean we should count for fast bowlers' Asia performance only?

On those lines somebody provide how to weigh batting performances.. or the same rules applies as for Spin bowlers: Performance in Asia don't Count??
Click to expand...

No one said only outside Asia performance counts. I said a good spinner will definitely perform in Asia, what makes him great is when he performs outside Asia too.
 
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