Aman
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Replace Kohli with KW, and we'll probably get the same results in Tests.
LOI's he is one of the GOAT's and would still manage to score runs and win matches.
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Ravindra Jadeja now ranked seventh in ICC Test Bowler rankings [Oct 2016]
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LOI's he is one of the GOAT's and would still manage to score runs and win matches.
street cricketer
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So Philander = Jadeja?
sensible-indian-fan
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NZ drew 1-1 with Pak in UAE in 2014.
NZ drew 1-1 with SL in SL in 2012.
NZ didn't win in India last time cos no team does. Since 1990, we have lost just 3 series at home. SA (2000), Aus (2004) and Eng (2012).
I am not ignoring any of the points.
The questions I asked you were simple and straightforward yet you chose to never answer them.
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sensible-indian-fan
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Great...so you will be willing to ignore a side''s achievement done against multiple teams but make excuses like this when reality is a bit different to your thought process.
NZ can't play spin but due to 1 guy they magically drew series against good teams.
McCullum was key in UAE but he had little role to play in this drawn test which was crucial for the series draw.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/742613.html
Latham and Taylor did it.
What about it?
Why didn't NZ even do well in 1 test against India
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sensible-indian-fan
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Mccullum was HUGE no doubt. Without him, NZ wouldn't have won in UAE.
To say if he was there, NZ would have even come close to drawing this series is absurd.
He was there in 2012 and NZ STILL got whitewashed.
What next?
That Mccullum hadn't reached his peak by then?
Well...that's true....but Rossy was damn good then who helped NZ draw series in SL but couldn't save a whitewash here.
So what next?
To say if he was there, NZ would have even come close to drawing this series is absurd.
He was there in 2012 and NZ STILL got whitewashed.
What next?
That Mccullum hadn't reached his peak by then?
Well...that's true....but Rossy was damn good then who helped NZ draw series in SL but couldn't save a whitewash here.
So what next?
Gabbar Singh
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7/48 for Sir Jadeja today.
Ab Fan
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Jadeja's best ever performance..
7-48 and two great catches on a pitch conducive for batsmen.
7-48 and two great catches on a pitch conducive for batsmen.
sensible-indian-fan
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This was a gun spell of bowling on a super flat pitch.
Preyed on batsmen and Moeen's wicket allowed him to simply run through the English lineup.
Preyed on batsmen and Moeen's wicket allowed him to simply run through the English lineup.
ShoonyaSifar
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Likely to move to top 3 now? Should gain t least 30 points after this 10-fer
Bilal7
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Better than Ashwin on flat tracks and outside the subcontinent.
Romali_rotti
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This would be some achievement if Jadeja sneaks into top 3 in bowling rankings.
Zak_Fan
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Jadeja is probably the best leggie on flat decks.
Sin Nombre
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Continuing the discussion from earlier, I still Jadeja will be the one spinner if we go with four bowlers on unhelpful pitches away from home.
Outside the subcontinent and WI, yes.
That said, Ashwin was unlucky in this match. Would have had much better numbers if we applied Amir logic of dropped catches.
sensible-indian-fan
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Jaddu would be my pick on pitches where spinners don't have a chance to get wickets and are needed for over-rate and containment purposes. And he would be my number 1 pick as a support bowler cos what he can do...very few spinners in the history of the game can do.
Anyways, who do you think bowled better today?
Ash or Jaddu?
Bilal7
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He was awful in the first innings.
No matter how well he performs no one seems to rate Jadeja.
For all you know, he might be dropped for the next Test which is in 2 months time. After all, Kohli dropped him and picked Mishra in the West Indies even though Jadeja had scarcely believable match figures of 58-35-56-7 in the last Test that he had played.
Today's performance was one of the best performances I have seen by an Indian spinner given that the track offered very little help to the spinners. In the past, many of our great spinners have failed to force a result on such tracks and undoubtedly, without Jadeja, Ashwin & Mishra would have failed as well.
For all you know, he might be dropped for the next Test which is in 2 months time. After all, Kohli dropped him and picked Mishra in the West Indies even though Jadeja had scarcely believable match figures of 58-35-56-7 in the last Test that he had played.
Today's performance was one of the best performances I have seen by an Indian spinner given that the track offered very little help to the spinners. In the past, many of our great spinners have failed to force a result on such tracks and undoubtedly, without Jadeja, Ashwin & Mishra would have failed as well.
sensible-indian-fan
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Jaddu ain't getting dropped. Kohli has made some super botch ups in the past dropping many players but he learns from his mistakes and he knows what's Jaddu's real value now.
Jaddu is an excellent bowler who is UNLIKE traditional spinners.
He is not a hunter. He lays down the trap and waits for the batsmen to fall into it.
That trap could work on non responsive pitches...it could work on turners...it could not work at all. There is not much predictability with Jaddu when it comes to wickets and because of that, people are not able to categorize him as a good bowler or bad bowler and hence resort to classifying him as XYZ pitch bowler (based on what pitches they feel he would do well).
Truth is he is no specific track bully. He can be lethal in rank turners or go wicket-less there. He can be lethal in flat tracks or go wicket-less there. His number of wickets are not guaranteed on any track.
But what he GUARANTEES is supreme support. There is no better support bowler than Jaddu in the world.
A very very complex bowler to rate which is why we see a massive disparity in views.
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jeetu
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No.6 now
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Rank [/td][td]Name [/td][td]Rat. [/td][td]Country [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]R. Ashwin [/td][td]904 [/td][td]IND [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]H.M.R.K.B. Herath [/td][td]867 [/td][td]SL [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]D.W. Steyn [/td][td]844 [/td][td]SA [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]J.M. Anderson [/td][td]818 [/td][td]ENG [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]J.R. Hazlewood [/td][td]815 [/td][td]AUS [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]R.A. Jadeja [/td][td]813 [/td][td]IND [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]S.C.J. Broad [/td][td]804 [/td][td]ENG [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]M.A. Starc [/td][td]787 [/td][td]AUS [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]Yasir Shah [/td][td]781 [/td][td]PAK [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]N. Wagner [/td][td]755 [/td][td]NZ [/td][/tr]
[/table]
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Rank [/td][td]Name [/td][td]Rat. [/td][td]Country [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]R. Ashwin [/td][td]904 [/td][td]IND [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]H.M.R.K.B. Herath [/td][td]867 [/td][td]SL [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]D.W. Steyn [/td][td]844 [/td][td]SA [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]J.M. Anderson [/td][td]818 [/td][td]ENG [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]J.R. Hazlewood [/td][td]815 [/td][td]AUS [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]R.A. Jadeja [/td][td]813 [/td][td]IND [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]S.C.J. Broad [/td][td]804 [/td][td]ENG [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]M.A. Starc [/td][td]787 [/td][td]AUS [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]Yasir Shah [/td][td]781 [/td][td]PAK [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]N. Wagner [/td][td]755 [/td][td]NZ [/td][/tr]
[/table]
sensible-indian-fan
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leatherface58
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Should have been Man of the Match and this is not some "Bowler lives matter" crap. He turned the draw into victory with some amazing bowling on a flat pitch with some rough in it.
Agree. A match-winning 10-fer on a pitch in which no other spinner managed more than 2 deserved MOTM.
Navdeep Srivastava
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Agree with you , taking 7 wickest for 48 runs on a flat wicket is a amazing performance and deserve MOM
He will up to at least 4 and most likely 3 after today's performance.
FlickedOffHips
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Pakistanis complaining about the turning nature of Indian pitches. Now I've read it all.
Sin Nombre
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Ash bowled better on but Jadeja was better in the final 2 sessions.
In England, both should play. Given how good Bhuvi is under clouds as a bowler, while being a decent bat as well, we can afford to go with 5 bowlers there. We just need Kohli and the openers to click.
Same for Durban/Sydney.
So essentially, we are talking about the other 3 venues in SA (Centurion, Joburg and Newlands), NZ and MCG, Gabba and WACA in Oz.
Unless we somehow develop a fast bowling all rounder in the next 12 months (and that would mean giving Pandya or Shardul test matches now), we will be forced to go with a 4-man bowling attack with just one spinner. At this point, I think that has to be Jadeja.
sensible-indian-fan
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1. Since we are discussing the lone spinner for overseas tests, I asked that question about who bowled better. I get your point but let me explain my point of view.
2. We may have a difference of opinion here but watching both spinners at play, Ash was better than Jaddu (and all other bowlers) in both session 1 and 2 by a significant margin. He didn't bowl much on session 3. But Jaddu was more effective. To take a 7fer in an innings where other spinners couldn't take more than 2 is a huge achievement. As others have mentioned, he was my MOM too. Turned a draw into a win. Did what others couldn't do.
3. Now as for his 7fer, if we are going to base that as one of the supporting reasons why he has to be picked for overseas as the lone spinner (cos he knows how to pick wickets on flat tracks or keeps it tight).....then we have to honestly analyze that performance. Can you name just 3 dismissals in that 7fer where he worked out the batsmen and got them out? Fact is there isn't.
Cook got out to a wide ball...Jennings got out to a nothing ball....Root tried to sweep a full ball.....Moeen threw his wicket away....Stokes was on backfoot and done in by the grip on the pitch (that rare ball where pitch helped)...then you had the 2 tails who Jaddu cleaned up beautifully towards the end of the day.
This doesn't mean Jaddu bowled crap and was lucky. We have to understand what kind of a bowler Jaddu is to see why he was successful here. In this pitch, Jaddu's style of bowling is incapable of working out batsmen and getting the wickets (random wickets sure....consistent wickets no). What he did was he laid the trap. Kept it fast and tight, preyed on the insecurities and fears of the batsmen and let them crumble to their own doom. The same bowling on the same pitch in maybe some other situation would have made him go wicketless or maybe take 2 odd wickets. You just have to see Jaddu's innings by innings breakdown to see that his wicket columns will fluctuate from innings to innings regardless of pitch. In Rajkot, he picked 3 wickets in first innings (best bowler on show from our side) but in 2nd innings, he was attacked as well as went wicketless. You just cannot find any trends because Jaddu lays the trap. If it clicks, it clicks. Or else, he could go home with virtually nothing. That's why he is a great support bowler (due to his accuracy) but cannot be relied upon as the main spinner.
4. Ash on the other hand wasn't the best bowler on show in the first innings (it was Jaddu). But the 2nd innings, he almost did what no other spinner from either side could do - get consistent wickets through guile on this pitch instead of false shots or slogging. Cook (dropped, popped), Jenning (edged), Moeen (outside edge), Stokes (don't remember exactly but looked like taking him out anytime), Rashid (edged - Pappu could have caught it but not in position)....he could have walked away with a 5fer and there would be 1000 articles about how he is slowly proving people wrong but sometimes, luck doesn't go your way. And this luck isn't the Ishant Sharma coulda woulda shoulda luck (in the past where he used to bowl back of the length) where you have oohs and aahs every game but don't get wickets. Ash got the edges but wickets didn't fall. To be fair to Jaddu, he could have got Buttler through a proper method (ball popped out) but Rahul missed out a chance. What you saw yesterday, was one of the finest exhibitions of spin bowling by Ash. But as luck would have it, he now runs the risk of losing his number 1 spot after bowling one of his top spells. Nasser was gutted he couldn't get a wicket....when he deserved a 5fer.
5. It all comes down to this....one spinner is a hunter....another is a cunning trap setter. While trap setters are good, they don't make things happen. They let others fall to their doom. In overseas tests, majority of the times, we need spinners who can make things happen. They are more likely to get you those breakthroughs to win the game. Jaddu's economy couldn't get us a Wellington win but a couple of crucial wickets could have. Same way, his economy in Lord's didn't help us win...Ishant Sharma magical spell did. You take any overseas test Jaddu played, his economy couldn't prevent a defeat (in NZ or Eng)....neither could it help us get a win. It's NOT his fault. That's his style of bowling.
6. Bottomline is either Jaddu plays as 2nd spinner overseas or doesn't play at all. If Ashwin doesn't click, then get someone like Kuldeep (attacking spinner who makes things happen) in and go for it. If he too doesn't click, get someone else. Yasir won Pakistan 2 tests in England cos he took wickets by powering through. That's what we need from a spinner overseas (do damage whenever you can).
If you suggest Jaddu to be the lone spinner on a pukka green seamer that has NO chance of becoming brown and turning later on (like Lord's)..a track where spinner is unlikely to get wickets but can keep things tight and help with over rate....that's something I completely agree with. Always have.
Agreed above. Jadeja, for all his value to the Indian team, cannot afford to be the lone spinner.
But my take is: Kohli should play both Ashwin and Jadeja regardless of country or pitch anyway. After that, depending on the track, he can go for either 3 seamers or 2 seamers and an extra all rounder.
Thing is, Ashwin and Jadeja together can bring in equivalence to an extra batsman (i.e. - if you dropped one of them instead) even on green tracks. I do not think more than 3 seamers in an Indian team is going to be very useful in any condition. Every team has its modus operandi and playing culture. A mostly seam attack is simply just not the indian way.
But my take is: Kohli should play both Ashwin and Jadeja regardless of country or pitch anyway. After that, depending on the track, he can go for either 3 seamers or 2 seamers and an extra all rounder.
Thing is, Ashwin and Jadeja together can bring in equivalence to an extra batsman (i.e. - if you dropped one of them instead) even on green tracks. I do not think more than 3 seamers in an Indian team is going to be very useful in any condition. Every team has its modus operandi and playing culture. A mostly seam attack is simply just not the indian way.
Cricfan4eva
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Who would've thought Indians will dominate no.1 and 2 in bowlers rankings. 
Agree 100% . IND needs to play both because that IS our strength ! Ashwin & Jaddu playing without each other reduces each ones effectiveness massively . And they are pretty good for lower order bats. Playing an all seam attack is futile if the seamers aren't good.
We saw the same with ENG playing 3 spinners in Moeen , Rash & Ansari/Batty in the first 2-3 tests. The 3rd spinners were nowhere near good ! Same thing with INDIA.. If the 4th seamer is not one who can bowl with control(I dont think India have that many) its better to play a spinner who'll give you control.
Sin Nombre
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I am talking about the 7-9 test matches that we play in each cycle where the right decision in the absence of a genuine strike bowler (one we have never had in history) or a fast bowling all rounder (Kapil and Irfan for a few years) is to play the lone spinner and the extra batsman.
Do we want that lone spinner to be Ashwin or Jadeja for those matches? Depending on whether we trust the seamers to take 20 wickets or not, my answer would vary.
Saurav
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Actually Jaddu is better on turners as he gets quick turn and is nagging.As we saw in Durban too.Ashwin is more useful when there isnt much turn but there is bounce.
However Ashwin will still be my spinner in all tracks.But Jadeja has confirmed his spot as support/backup bowler even for overseas.Jayant needs to do more in his bowling.Mishra is useless
sensible-indian-fan
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I was referring to pitches where there is nothing for spinners...pitches where spinners are there for containment and over rate purposes only. Jaddu is the best spinner for those conditions.
Otherwise, I would play Ash and Jaddu for all conditions. If Kuldeep clicks big, then Ash and Kuldeep.
Saurav
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If there is nothing for the spinners,dont play them.We have enough pacers and part timers can chip in with containment overs
All the bowlers should have realistic chance of taking wickets,specially if we play 4 bowlers
sensible-indian-fan
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Yeah...something to think about.
Etherealistic
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Jaddu's fielding more than makes up for his failure in batting/bowling. When all these 3 areas of his game is at the top level, he's a cricketer to look out for. He's a rockstar as Shane Warne calls him. 
Sin Nombre
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Our "enough pacers and part-timers" are going to leak runs like Yasir Shah.
Also, who are these part-timers in the test squad?
The spinner will bowl a lot in such conditions so that the pacers can ball one 5 over spell per session.
One of the biggest reasons for the failures of India away on flat pitches is that Dhoni would make them ball 20+ overs every day and Indian pacers break down very quickly.
Saurav
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Our pacers dont do well on flat pitches away even if they bowl 1 over spell
If fitness is an issue then address that rather than looking for a jugaad.Can play an extra seamer if pitches help pacers
If they dont help anyone yeah play your best bowlers including spinners
FlickedOffHips
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Jaddu's fielding more than makes up for his failure in batting/bowling. When all these 3 areas of his game is at the top level, he's a cricketer to look out for. He's a rockstar as Shane Warne calls him.
i don't think I've seen a game where all three aspects have come together. That's a frightening sight. Akela hi jita dey ga.
His batting in the first innings at Mohali & bowling (cleaning Faf & Amla) in both innings, then bowling in the second innings at Delhi. Fifty & catches in the second innings (except the Mishra googly he had a hand in all 9 wickets) at Chennai & of course the 7fer, Jadeja for me is the more complete package in tests (in India) than even Ashwin. The batting of Ashwin & his variations generally make him a better, especially his batting, but if it were a road we were playing on (outside India) & having the option to choose only one I'd pick Jadeja ahead of Ashwin because of what he brings to the table.
Ashwin will be a more consistent batter, Jadeja the more consistent bowler & fielder, & even if he doesn't pick too many wickets he'll keep it reasonably tight.
Sin Nombre
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I would disagree.
Our pacers start well and get worse as the series progressed under Dhoni's captaincy. See the last few series in Eng, SA, NZ.
We are going to play a 4-test series in SA this time rather than the usual 2 so we need to protect our pacers.
Ideally, assuming it is a flat away track, and Kohli actually wants to try to win the test with the resources we have, we go with 4 pacers + 1 spinner (likely Jadeja) and trust the 6 batsmen to score enough. Even Ishant is a decent bowler if you use him in moderation.
first 10 overs: pacer 1 + pacer 2
next 50 overs: Jadeja on one end + pacer 3/4/1/2 rotation
next 20 overs (assuming there is reverse swing): pacer 1/2/3/4 rotation
Hopefully, Bumrah or someone else can grow into that pacer 2 role to support Shami.
Etherealistic
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Absolutely, he could be the best all rounder ever from India if all 3 aspects come together. His bowling has improved, batting has shown improvement specially in Tests, best fielder in the team ahead of Kohli, Rahane. Hope he can replicate the same in LOIs.
No, I don't believe he is the 7th best bowler in world cricket. As ICC says, he is the very best!
ShoonyaSifar
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Irrespective of how he does away from home, what a transformation as a bowler and a valuable contributor with the bat at number 8. He can still do better as a batsman in tests and should target a test batting average of 35+ which he is fully capable of.
sensible-indian-fan
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He has bowled extremely well this season.
Subtle variations in pace, trajectory and lengths.
Subtle variations in pace, trajectory and lengths.
Drreddymd
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Sif how do u rate jaddu and ashwin chances of becoming main spinner for india outside of india
sensible-indian-fan
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We should play 5 bowlers with 2 spinners.
Jaddu is an automatic choice right now. Has improved a lot.
Ashwin if he sorts his injury should play or else he won't do well at all.
Kuldeep is always in the mix.
Can't say how everything is going to play out in December SA tour.
Players transform, lose form, develop issues, get injured.....but these 3 are going to fight for the 1/2 spots for overseas tests which is always good.
I think we (team, pacers, spinners) may do well overseas. Signs are good.
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Arsalan Pro
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Congats!!!
Although his real test would be outside Asia.
Although his real test would be outside Asia.
By December, Ashwin's injury will be sorted out for sure.
Drreddymd
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5 bowler strategy will work but our batting becomes very lite and if it is a green mamba u dont need 2 spinners.
I am asking about 1 spinner if u want to select one
Drreddymd
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Absolutely. Indian spinners has to improve their performance to a very higher level so as to be effective outside of india.
I am surprised that maharaj of sa bowled so well in aus and nz. He won a match in nz with his bowling.
I want my spinners to have that kind of performances
sensible-indian-fan
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If its one spinner, right now, it has to be Jaddu.
Come December, we have to see who stands where.
We will play 5 bowlers on most pitches. 95% sure.
Drreddymd
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Even on green mambas sif?
Duplessis has clearly hinted his preferences for what type of pitch he needs.
sensible-indian-fan
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Yes I was talking about current ability vs potential ability.
sensible-indian-fan
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It wont be green mambas always. If it is, then Jaddu may be safer due to his economical bowling.
Even if it is green mambas, other tours wont be the same.
Drreddymd
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Why do u think maharaj was successful in aus, nz while our bowlers appear toothless
sensible-indian-fan
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I haven't watched him much but from initial impression...he doesn't seem to be a big turner of the ball...is very accurate and uses subtle variations.
Also you have to account for the fact that NZ prepared slow pitches to counter SA's spin weakness. Those pitches may not be Asian turners but NZ did take 2 proper spinners on their playing XI. Even Duminy got a 4fer in one innings (to be fair I have seen Duminy sometimes bowl well even in non responsive pitches).
When we tour, we will likely not get such pitches (seamer turned flatty it will be).
So right now, too early to compare. This Maharaj guy may be really good.
As for his performance in Aus, he took a 3fer in one innings where Aus collapsed and then went for 1/94 (tailender) in another. There is absolutely no real sample set to say he succeeded in Aus. He has done well in whatever chances he got in Aus but data is too less.
Also in our last tour, both Ash and Jaddu were nowhere close to the spinners they are now. So you just have to wait for the overseas tours to see what's what. Also comparison must be meaningful taking into account pitches, contribution and bowling quality.
Bhaijaan
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Going from strength to strength. Jadeja's bowling better than ever before and is deservingly ranked #1 in tests. While he doesn't take nearly as many 5fers or 10fers like Ashwin, he rarely goes through rough patches either during a match. If he's not taking wickets, he's always keeping the run flow dry.
FreePalestine
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He is a good player. I have watched him more this season. Very consistent bowler. Still remains to be seen if he can be effective out of asia, but regardless, still a good player.
Very few spinners are, of the lot who've been successful, like Keshav, most of them have had decent pace attack & more than decent bating to back them up. There are certain places like Australia or the green tracks in New Zealand where spinners are even less effective than say SA or England.
The point of a lot depends on the pitches, but equally or perhaps to a lesser extent the quality of your team. Keshav playing for WI wouldn't have picked up as many wickets as he did with SA, that's not necessarily true for pacers in Asia though as opening is a much tougher, unless we disk out slow roads. I do expect Jadeja to do better than his last outings, at the same time pitches & our pacers/batters need to step up if he's to be more effective than in the past.
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