Ravindra Jadeja now ranked seventh in ICC Test Bowler rankings [Oct 2016]

[sensible-indian-fan]

your question was how were the pitches against NZ.
The answer is simple really. It doesn't matter as NZ are pathetic against spin anyway. They've been whitewashed by Bangladesh on numerous occasions, that was even before Bangladesh even became Bangladesh. That's all that matters .

Tour Pakistan, then we'll talk.

So you will not answer the question even after 5 times?

If NZ were so pathetic against spin, how did they LEVEL the series against Pakistan in UAE?

Now before you say "its the flat tracks" let me quote what you just said.

IT SHOULD NOT matter cos they are rubbish against spin so flattish spin tracks shouldn't matter.

Also....NZ spinners were Craig, Santner, Sodhi and Jeetan. Santner averages 29 (playing only outside Asia) before that tour.

1. Indian batsmen couldn't play ATG Tahir (who average 40s in tests), Harmer and co.....but could magically play Santner and co so well that they had to average in 50s in this tour? In the same pitches where our spinners averaged great. This is NOT about NZ batting but purely about Indian batting.

How did that happen?

Tour Pakistan, then we'll talk.

We would love but unfortunately can't.

But since you talk about that, here's another teaser:

2. Explain how NZ spinners averaged the same in India as they did in UAE tour against the best spin playing team in the world...yet the horrible rank turner bully Indian spinners averaged great?

----

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

your question was how were the pitches against NZ.
The answer is simple really. It doesn't matter as NZ are pathetic against spin anyway. They've been whitewashed by Bangladesh on numerous occasions, that was even before Bangladesh even became Bangladesh. That's all that matters .

Tour Pakistan, then we'll talk.

NZ drew their last series in Pakistan and Sri Lankan . So no they are not exactly as pathetic against spin as you suggest. Find another excuse now lol

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

That's all that matters.
No team was on top, SA misread a pitch in Australia expecting a juicy deck and dropped a spinner.
We nearly paid the price. SA are very familiar with those conditions. Pitches are misread all the time. It's nothing new really.

That's not all that matters but its ok. We will accept it.

If you really thought India was not on top in Bangalore, then wow.

Moving on...

I have listed out so many other COMPLETED games where tracks were proper (you can verify it on Google) and Jaddu did great.

Can you answer away every other instance of how this rank turner bully Jaddu fluked his way into averaging great in normal tracks?

 

[street cricketer]

If India doctored all the pitches in that series, wouldn't words have fell on Kohli's ears that Bangalore was a rank turner as well from the curator..

I mean what's the use of preparing a track to suit home advantage but not informing the team captain who is actually going to play on it.

 

[Someguy]

The most unaccepatable words to indian flat track nully batsman are "bouncy tracks". Until and unless India stops its cheap tactics to play maximium home games with doctored tracks right after a whitewash, there will remain big question mark on all the results and averages of its players. No wonder then, that when wisdon published its list of the top innings in cricket hx, taking into account strength of opposition, pitch conditions, match situation etc, Tendulker was no where to be found. Every cricket follower knows about indian tactics and it continues to make the "performences" less credible.

 

[Buffet]

rankings are based on recent performance, wasn't philander ranked number one or two in world for some time? no one said he has to prove his worth. outside those green mambas. why only Indian/asians have to prove there worth in alien conditions but not for others?

Plenty of PPers said that Vern had to do well in different conditions to be rated high.

 

[Bilal7]

Yes just like how you said Abdur Rehman is much better than Ashwin in 2013.

Harmer, Tahir and others only clicked in rank turners. They averaged awful (50-70) when they got normal pitches in SA series (Delhi and Bangalore) where Jaddu averaged 15.

Abdul Rehman was better than Ashwin in 2013, lol. Those normal pitches come around only when the series is dead and buried so that the pitches don't come under too much criticism. Harmer would have been averaging under 28 had he been playing in India.

If Jadeja's wickets carry less weight because of the pitches he's played on in India, don't the runs scored by Indian batsmen in the same conditions count for much more that their actual statistics? But no, no one will give credit to the Indian batsmen either because screw logic.

Indian batsmen don't score on rank turners. They score in the dead rubbers which are played on much better batting tracks.

 

[Bilal7]

That's not all that matters but its ok. We will accept it.

If you really thought India was not on top in Bangalore, then wow.

Moving on...

I have listed out so many other COMPLETED games where tracks were proper (you can verify it on Google) and Jaddu did great.

Can you answer away every other instance of how this rank turner bully Jaddu fluked his way into averaging great in normal tracks?

Is Jadeja a better spinner than Ashwin, Bhajjan, Kumble, etc? Being an Ashwin-apologist is fine but you're kidding me if you're defending Jadeja's sub-20 average.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The most unaccepatable words to indian flat track nully batsman are "bouncy tracks". Until and unless India stops its cheap tactics to play maximium home games with doctored tracks right after a whitewash, there will remain big question mark on all the results and averages of its players. No wonder then, that when wisdon published its list of the top innings in cricket hx, taking into account strength of opposition, pitch conditions, match situation etc, Tendulker was no where to be found. Every cricket follower knows about indian tactics and it continues to make the "performences" less credible.

Its amusing how you go to every thread and try to post the same thing again and again and again

I dont see any question mark beside the stats of Indian players in any official stat book?Did you?

Did you miss out the Wisden issue where Tendulkar was ranked the 2nd best Test and ODI batsman of all time?

When did you start representing every cricket follower?When did you start deciding what is credible what is not?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Is Jadeja a better spinner than Ashwin, Bhajjan, Kumble, etc? Being an Ashwin-apologist is fine but you're kidding me if you're defending Jadeja's sub-20 average.

Ashwin Bhajji Kumble all have 200 plus wickets.Compare them with Jaddu when he has 200 plus wickets. Thats where the concept of sample size comes in.

And why will the number one ranked bowler in the world need any apologist?

 

[Bilal7]

Ashwin Bhajji Kumble all have 200 plus wickets.Compare them with Jaddu when he has 200 plus wickets. Thats where the concept of sample size comes in.

And why will the number one ranked bowler in the world need any apologist?

Nothing would change whether Jadeja cultivates 400 wickets on his custom-made tracks or whether he doesn't get to pick a single wicket for the rest of his career. No intelligent cricket fan will mention him in a discussion about the best spinners from India, Asia or the world if he doesn't prove himself in a variety of conditions.

 

[OS_89]

Abdul Rehman was better than Ashwin in 2013, lol. Those normal pitches come around only when the series is dead and buried so that the pitches don't come under too much criticism. Harmer would have been averaging under 28 had he been playing in India.



Indian batsmen don't score on rank turners. They score in the dead rubbers which are played on much better batting tracks.

Pujara and Vijay have scored on those rank turners repeatedly.

Anyway, it's beside the point, which is that playing on so many supposedly "rank turners" affects their batting stats negatively.

 

[Bilal7]

Pujara and Vijay have scored on those rank turners repeatedly.

Anyway, it's beside the point, which is that playing on so many supposedly "rank turners" affects their batting stats negatively.

And Pujara and Vijay are rated as very good players of spin by almost all cricket fans, no? Yes, it does negatively affect their batting stats but its not like they are all averaging 50+ everywhere else over a couple of tours in each country. It helps them by ensuring that they don't get overrated like the Australian batsmen.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Nothing would change whether Jadeja cultivates 400 wickets on his custom-made tracks or whether he doesn't get to pick a single wicket for the rest of his career. No intelligent cricket fan will mention him in a discussion about the best spinners from India, Asia or the world if he doesn't prove himself in a variety of conditions.

Who will decide what Jadeja is?Who will decide who is intelligent?Me?you?Neither of us.We can debate and discuss all we want,but we are not the ones who will shape any opinion.There are people out there whose opinion have far more worth and reach and they will decide it.So making outlandish statements like no intelligent fans etc etc etc doesnt mean anything.

90% of Lillees wickets have been in Australia or England he didnt do anything in SC or WI,he is still one of the greatest fast bowlers to have played in the game.Why?Because every cricket expert out there says so.And thats what matters.

If Jadeja takes 400 test wickets with his avg anywhere close to what it is now,he may will be considered a great of the game.You or Me or anyone else posting on here wont change that.

 

[Bilal7]

Who will decide what Jadeja is?Who will decide who is intelligent?Me?you?Neither of us.We can debate and discuss all we want,but we are not the ones who will shape any opinion.There are people out there whose opinion have far more worth and reach and they will decide it.So making outlandish statements like no intelligent fans etc etc etc doesnt mean anything.

90% of Lillees wickets have been in Australia or England he didnt do anything in SC or WI,he is still one of the greatest fast bowlers to have played in the game.Why?Because every cricket expert out there says so.And thats what matters.

If Jadeja takes 400 test wickets with his avg anywhere close to what it is now,he may will be considered a great of the game.You or Me or anyone else posting on here wont change that.

I am a fan of the game, and along with other fans, decide who is a great and who is a HTB.

 

[street cricketer]

Nothing would change whether Jadeja cultivates 400 wickets on his custom-made tracks or whether he doesn't get to pick a single wicket for the rest of his career. No intelligent cricket fan will mention him in a discussion about the best spinners from India, Asia or the world if he doesn't prove himself in a variety of conditions.

But Jadeja averages 25 in South Africa.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I am a fan of the game, and along with other fans, decide who is a great and who is a HTB.

And the opinion of fans is influenced by ones who shape that opinion.And those shaping the opinion decide who is a great who is a HTB.

You are kidding yourself if you think anonymous fans decide who is a great and who is not.

And you speak only for yourself not for other fans who number in millions and millions.

 

[cricketjoshila]

But Jadeja averages 25 in South Africa.

Almost every expert out there considers Abdul Qadir a brilliant Leggie,many Pakistanis consider him to be a great.

But look up his stats and they fall flat.

So all these stat crunching and discussion here is good for academic purposes,but will mean zilch when a Sunil Gavaskar will stand up and say that Qadir was one of the best spinners he faced.

Thats the reality.

 

[Bilal7]

But Jadeja averages 25 in South Africa.

Yes, he also has a five-for there.

And the opinion of fans is influenced by ones who shape that opinion.And those shaping the opinion decide who is a great who is a HTB.

You are kidding yourself if you think anonymous fans decide who is a great and who is not.

And you speak only for yourself not for other fans who number in millions and millions.

Yes and I am entitled to speak just as I like and you should stop telling other members to stop letting their opinions be heard. Most intelligent posters don't need someone to tell them how to think, their intelligence allows them to make their own judgments.

 

[street cricketer]

Yes, he also has a five-for there.

Isn't that enough?

 

[Ankit007]

Thanks to India's square turning pitches, Mr. R. Jadeja is now the 7th best bowler in test cricket!! These guys are going to mess up all bowling stats with their ridiculous turners. Jadeja is not even the 7th best bowler in India, much less wc.

I would say he is #8. Only starc is better. rest is fine

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Is Jadeja a better spinner than Ashwin, Bhajjan, Kumble, etc? Being an Ashwin-apologist is fine but you're kidding me if you're defending Jadeja's sub-20 average.

If you think defending Jaddu means claiming he is as good as his average....then what can I do?

Jaddu has ATG stats. Name 1 Indian who even remotely refers to him that way.

What he is NOT is a mediocre spinner.

And yeah right...Abdur Rehman a great support bowler was better than Ashwin in 2013 who was a lead bowler.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Jaddu is extremely under-rated.

People don't understand why he has such an average.

Jaddu when he clicks, he picks up a bunch of wickets.

When he doesn't click, he keeps it so tight that he leaks very few runs. On a Nagpur patta in 2012, his match figures were 3/117. Other spinners gave away those runs in 1 innings alone. So he just needs a few wickets to maintain his average.

Since he is not a strike bowler, he is not rated as high as his average (which is fair enough).

But he is no lulloo. The perfect support bowler really.

The wrong misconception is that he picks a lot of wickets on turners and goes missing otherwise. You breakdown his stats and you can see his average is 19.xx even on verifiable proper tracks. That's due to the above reasons I gave.

Needs to improve a bit though. Was a touch disappointed with his bowling in the NZ series. He has bowled way better in the past on normal tracks.

And here's a fact: Jaddu will retire with a test career average of 23 or less. Haha.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Abdul Rehman was better than Ashwin in 2013, lol. Those normal pitches come around only when the series is dead and buried so that the pitches don't come under too much criticism. Harmer would have been averaging under 28 had he been playing in India.

I don't know how you do such generalization but let's look at the facts:

India home tours

WI 2011 - 3 test matches - 0 rank turners
NZ 2012 - 3 test matches - 0 rank turners
Eng 2012 - 4 test matches - 1 rank turner (2nd test)
Aus 2013 - 4 test matches - 2 rank turners (2nd test wasn't a rank turner - 3rd test was a batting paradise where Dhawan smashed 187 - dead rubber 4th test was a rank turner - what happened to the theory that normal tracks are prepared only when series is won)
SA 2015 - 4 test matches - 2 rank turners (2nd and 4th test - this one series is the basis of your generalization right? Then why the track for 2nd pitch wasn't a rank turner)
NZ 2016 - 3 test matches - 0 rank turners (I guess 2nd test Kolkata pitch where pacers were running havoc and spinners were playing supporting role was a spitting rank turner)

Anything else bro?

This is what happens with "narrative".

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

^Also the WI 2013 series

----

I guess I am done with this thread.

This is a never ending topic and since I know every little detail about Indian home games and Indian test performances in the last few years, I can do these debates with my eyes closed.

But after a while, it gets boring.

What soso_killer, Aman and Bilal don't seem to realize is that others actually ACCEPT their fundamental point.

You have to perform in tough conditions to be rated super high without any questions.

Heck if Younis Khan and Sanga after all their achievements can still be questioned reg their overseas performance (at times), who the hell are Ashwin and Jaddu.

We get that. No one is denying it.

But that doesn't mean you have to make untrue claims about Ashwin - Jaddu dismissing all of their achievements.

When you fall into the trap of believing a narrative, then its hard for you to look at the world as it is. You start PERCEIVING reality as it suits your narrative and all of this happens subconsciously.

And then when tough questions and facts are posed, you get into all sorts of tangles because your ego doesn't want to let go of the narrative built up in your head.

Just look at every 2nd thread. A claim would be made, that claim would be countered with examples of situations diametrically opposite to the one in the claim which would lead to the said posters to get all tangled up at which point they will move on to the next claim.

Falling prey to narrative while being passionate about a topic is something which happens to all of us.

But after a certain point of time, you have to realize what's reality and what's not. Its upto the said persons to realize it. There is no point in arguing.

I do hope people introspect and see what's going on. Rest is upto them.

All the best.

 

[AlizeeFan]

I don't know how you do such generalization but let's look at the facts:

India home tours

WI 2011 - 3 test matches - 0 rank turners
NZ 2012 - 3 test matches - 0 rank turners
Eng 2012 - 4 test matches - 1 rank turner (2nd test)
Aus 2013 - 4 test matches - 2 rank turners (2nd test wasn't a rank turner - 3rd test was a batting paradise where Dhawan smashed 187 - dead rubber 4th test was a rank turner - what happened to the theory that normal tracks are prepared only when series is won)
SA 2015 - 4 test matches - 2 rank turners (2nd and 4th test - this one series is the basis of your generalization right? Then why the track for 2nd pitch wasn't a rank turner)
NZ 2016 - 3 test matches - 0 rank turners (I guess 2nd test Kolkata pitch where pacers were running havoc and spinners were playing supporting role was a spitting rank turner)

Anything else bro?

This is what happens with "narrative".

Doesn't matter, here are actual WOULD have been averages of spinners

 

[AlizeeFan]

^ and since most of the bowlers have their lowest averages in India (check would have been averages column) and lower overall career aveage, it show how pitches and quality of opposition are giving unfair advantage to Indian bowlers.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Jadeja would be harmless on those lifeless UAE tracks.

Yeah, just like all other spinners.

 

[Red Devil]

Doesn't matter, here are actual WOULD have been averages of spinners

Lol most of these bowlers have played 1 or 2 matches in UAE. Useless stats.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Lol most of these bowlers have played 1 or 2 matches in UAE. Useless stats.

and they have played like 100 in India?

Still doesn't explain how their averages are lowest (would have been) in India

 

[AlizeeFan]

Lol most of these bowlers have played 1 or 2 matches in UAE. Useless stats.

Just to add most of these common bowlers have bowled total ~730 overs in UAE and ~810 in India.

 

[Red Devil]

and they have played like 100 in India?

Still doesn't explain how their averages are lowest (would have been) in India

I get your point, bro. But you don't even need any stats to prove that pitches in India are more conducive to spin than UAE. All you have to do is watch the last two games between Pak and WI, anybody with an iota of cricketing knowledge will come to the same conclusion.

 

[AlizeeFan]

I get your point, bro. But you don't even need any stats to prove that pitches in India are more conducive to spin than UAE. All you have to do is watch the last two games between Pak and WI, anybody with an iota of cricketing knowledge will come to the same conclusion.

Then why are stats not consistent with this assumption? Because this is true for few matches but not for long period of time and certainly not for overall career of a player to make statements like Jadeja would have been ineffective in lifeless pitches of UAE.

Anyone with iota of cricketing knowledge would look at all performances of a player and not last two games like what you are doing.

If Bishoo, Tahir and Craig can run through this Pakistani batting line up in UAE, then Jadeja would have ensured that opposition is bowled out below 100 more often in UAE

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I get your point, bro. But you don't even need any stats to prove that pitches in India are more conducive to spin than UAE. All you have to do is watch the last two games between Pak and WI, anybody with an iota of cricketing knowledge will come to the same conclusion.

Agreed.

Its just that Jaddu won't be useless in UAE. Won't run through teams but will do fine. But with a LOT of hard work and overs.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Then why are stats not consistent with this assumption? Because this is true for few matches but not for long period of time and certainly not for overall career of a player to make statements like Jadeja would have been ineffective in lifeless pitches of UAE.

Anyone with iota of cricketing knowledge would look at all performances of a player and not last two games like what you are doing.

If Bishoo, Tahir and Craig can run through this Pakistani batting line up in UAE, then Jadeja would have ensured that opposition is bowled out below 100 more often in UAE

You are making good points but when you carried away, people may tune out and not see the good points.

UAE pitches are harder than India without a doubt. The stats for the last 2 years data shows the difference even though the stats of last 5 years doesn't. The pitches for the last WI series were really hard. The averages of certain spinners are similar due to a customary collapse of Pakistan (Tahir, Bishoo, Mark Craig).

Bishoo apart from the 8fer is averaging 100 I guess. Roston 200. Lyon 140 (he created no collapse so that's his UAE average).

But its also true that Pakistan when they are put under the pump with relentless good bowling starts doing weird stuff. That's why Indian spinners can get them out eventually. For me, bowling out Pakistan in UAE is a bloody hard task. Other teams can be bowled out in UAE relatively easily.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Agreed.

Its just that Jaddu won't be useless in UAE. Won't run through teams but will do fine. But with a LOT of hard work and overs.

His performance would not be any different than what he is doing in India. Averages would be similar as he will still be able to stop runs, SR will be higher as wickets won't come quickly, number of wickets will be higher.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

His performance would not be any different than what he is doing in India. Averages would be similar as he will still be able to stop runs, SR will be higher as wickets won't come quickly, number of wickets will be higher.

Average will be higher for sure.

SR will be higher.

But they will not be bad.

Same goes for Ashwin.

 

[AlizeeFan]

You are making good points but when you carried away, people may tune out and not see the good points.

UAE pitches are harder than India without a doubt. The stats for the last 2 years data shows the difference even though the stats of last 5 years doesn't. The pitches for the last WI series were really hard. The averages of certain spinners are similar due to a customary collapse of Pakistan (Tahir, Bishoo, Mark Craig).

Bishoo apart from the 8fer is averaging 100 I guess. Roston 200. Lyon 140 (he created no collapse so that's his UAE average).

But its also true that Pakistan when they are put under the pump with relentless good bowling starts doing weird stuff. That's why Indian spinners can get them out eventually. For me, bowling out Pakistan in UAE is a bloody hard task. Other teams can be bowled out in UAE relatively easily.

Yes apart from few good bowling innings they haven't got success. But they haven't managed that good inning even in India. There are no customary collapses.

Apart from Lyon taking 7 wickets in Delhi, I don't remember other bowlers running through Indian batting line up.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Average will be higher for sure.

SR will be higher.

But they will not be bad.

Same goes for Ashwin.

Averages won't be higher. Why it would be when most of the bowlers have their lowest average in UAE?

Overall this impression is based on averages of Indian bowlers in India and overseas bowlers in UAE.

They see overseas bowlers struggling in UAE, they feel oh this will be extremely difficult for Indian bowlers who are running through sides in India.

What they ignore is that overseas spinners struggle even more in India than they do in UAE so there are more chances that Indian bowlers would do better in UAE.

 

[AlizeeFan]

1. Level of ease in UAE for Pakistani bowlers - 7
2. Level of ease in UAE for overseas bowlers - 4
3. Level of ease in India for overseas bowlers - 2.5
4. Level of ease in India for Indian bowlers - 9.5

Conclusion - only consider 2 and 4 and pass the comment that Indian bowlers will be useless in UAE.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Yes apart from few good bowling innings they haven't got success. But they haven't managed that good inning even in India. There are no customary collapses.

Apart from Lyon taking 7 wickets in Delhi, I don't remember other bowlers running through Indian batting line up.

India doesn't collapse like Pakistan for no reason. Atleast usually.

Overseas spinners performances ares more spread out against India while its more uneven against Pakistan. If Pakistan doesn't collapse much, these spinners will average more in UAE which will perfectly reflect the gap between Indian and UAE tracks.

----

The biggest problem that most posters have is that they don't under cricket is NOT a linear game.

If a bowler averages 15 in a rank turner, that does not mean he will average 30 in a normal track.

He could average 20-25 in a normal track or he could average 100 in a normal track.

Me and Indian Willow said this over a year back and many didn't understand it. Now we could see that phenomena playing out where normal tracks change Ashwin and Jaddu's series averages much but it tripled the opposition bowler's series averages.

Indian spinners have time and again proved that they can pick wickets on normal Asian tracks.

They will pick wickets in UAE too but at a higher average and SR.

Also taking 20 wickets of other teams in UAE is WAY different to taking 20 wickets of Pakistan. Even Pak spinners would huff and puff to get 20 Pak wickets in UAE just like the Indian spinners. But a series in UAE would sure have been fun.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Averages won't be higher. Why it would be when most of the bowlers have their lowest average in UAE?

Overall this impression is based on averages of Indian bowlers in India and overseas bowlers in UAE.

They see overseas bowlers struggling in UAE, they feel oh this will be extremely difficult for Indian bowlers who are running through sides in India.

What they ignore is that overseas spinners struggle even more in India than they do in UAE so there are more chances that Indian bowlers would do better in UAE.

Read my last post.

You seem to be going in the opposite direction as them.

Two ends of a spectrum really.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Me and Indian Willow said this over a year back and many didn't understand it. Now we could see that phenomena playing out where normal tracks change Ashwin and Jaddu's series averages much but it tripled the opposition bowler's series averages.

*normal tracks against NZ didn't change...

 

[AlizeeFan]

India doesn't collapse like Pakistan for no reason. Atleast usually.

Overseas spinners performances ares more spread out against India while its more uneven against Pakistan. If Pakistan doesn't collapse much, these spinners will average more in UAE which will perfectly reflect the gap between Indian and UAE tracks.

Also taking 20 wickets of other teams in UAE is WAY different to taking 20 wickets of Pakistan. Even Pak spinners would huff and puff to get 20 Pak wickets in UAE just like the Indian spinners. But a series in UAE would sure have been fun.

1. Level of ease in UAE for Pakistani bowlers - 7
2. Level of ease in UAE for overseas bowlers - 4
3. Level of ease in India for overseas bowlers - 2.5
4. Level of ease in India for Indian bowlers - 9.5

Conclusion - only consider 2 and 4 and pass the comment that Indian bowlers will be useless in UAE.

For ex - Take a look at last 2 matches like Red Devil mentioned

Avg of Indian spinners - 19
Avg of Pakistani spinners - 27
Avg of WI spinners - 54
Avg of NZ spinners - 58

 

[AlizeeFan]

Overseas spinners performances ares more spread out against India while its more uneven against Pakistan. If Pakistan doesn't collapse much, these spinners will average more in UAE which will perfectly reflect the gap between Indian and UAE tracks.

If and buts and would have been and should have been don't mean anything.

If India had quality batting line up against spin like we had 10 years back, overseas spinners would have struggled to pick 20 wickets every time.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

For ex - Take a look at last 2 matches like Red Devil mentioned

Avg of Indian spinners - 19
Avg of Pakistani spinners - 27
Avg of WI spinners - 54
Avg of NZ spinners - 58

If and buts and would have been and should have been don't mean anything.

If India had quality batting line up against spin like we had 10 years back, overseas spinners would have struggled to pick 20 wickets every time.

Stats is one thing and interpreting stats is another thing.

There is no ifs and buts in my point and I will explain to you how.

Taking out the collapse of Pakistan against WI, the average of WI spinners in the recent series is a WHOPPING 130.

Across 3 innings.

Fact 1 - Pakistan's sudden collapses is NOT a UAE pitch problem. It is a Pakistan problem.

Fact 2 - If not for such collapses, the averages of overseas spinners in UAE would be woeful. Which conclusively proves that UAE pitches are harder than India. So that side of the argument is not right.

Fact 3 - The opposite argument that Indian spinners won't do well in UAE is also not right. Why? Because if Pakistan can collapse against no-name lulloo spinners in UAE, they can do so against Indian spinners too and more often. But when they play well, they will make it hard for the Indian spinners too. That's why a series would be fun.

Fact 4 - Taking 20 Pakistan wickets in UAE is different from taking 20 wickets of NZ, Eng, Aus or any other team in UAE. Lack of quality spin game, scoreboard pressure ALSO plays a role in helping Pak spinners get the wickets. If Indian spinners have to bowl to those teams in UAE, they too can pick wickets but will have to toil hard for each wicket.

I rest my case.

 

[FreePalestine]

Jaddu is extremely under-rated.

People don't understand why he has such an average.

Jaddu when he clicks, he picks up a bunch of wickets.

When he doesn't click, he keeps it so tight that he leaks very few runs. On a Nagpur patta in 2012, his match figures were 3/117. Other spinners gave away those runs in 1 innings alone. So he just needs a few wickets to maintain his average.

Since he is not a strike bowler, he is not rated as high as his average (which is fair enough).

But he is no lulloo. The perfect support bowler really.

The wrong misconception is that he picks a lot of wickets on turners and goes missing otherwise. You breakdown his stats and you can see his average is 19.xx even on verifiable proper tracks. That's due to the above reasons I gave.

Needs to improve a bit though. Was a touch disappointed with his bowling in the NZ series. He has bowled way better in the past on normal tracks.

And here's a fact: Jaddu will retire with a test career average of 23 or less. Haha.

I'll admit I haven't seen as much of him as you probably have. Interesting thoughts!

Just wondering, how different do you think Jadeja's test career average would be, if he played the same number of matches for Pakistan, playing mainly on UAE tracks?

 

[Zak_Fan]

Those bashing Jadeja here would be first ones to avoid the questions like "What would Yasir average if he played 15 Tests in Australia/NZ?".

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I'll admit I haven't seen as much of him as you probably have. Interesting thoughts!

Just wondering, how different do you think Jadeja's test career average would be, if he played the same number of matches for Pakistan, playing mainly on UAE tracks?

He is a very different kind of bowler.

Looks like a useless darter but has can do way better than darters on normal spin tracks.

As for UAE, I can't give you a specific number but he should average in 20s (mid 20s or high 20s at most) as long as there is a main spinner bowling. He is a great support bowler who takes charge at times.

I will give a recent example of Jaddu's performance on a flat track.

Recently India held Duleep Trophy as Day Night tests.

One of the 4 games assisted pacers a lot before flattening out. Rest of the games were high scoring.

Game 1 - India Green vs India Red

http://www.espncricinfo.com/duleep-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1044939.html

Kuldeep Yadav (who is in national radar and is deemed as our future) outperformed all the other spinners (Ohja, Shreyas Gopal, Jalaj).

Took 9/115 in the game.

Game 2 - India Blue vs India Red

http://www.espncricinfo.com/duleep-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1044941.html

Match called off due to rain. Batting team scored 285/5.

Kuldeep Yadav took 4/78.

Game 3 - India Blue vs India Green

http://www.espncricinfo.com/duleep-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1044943.html

India Blue scored 707. Other team got bundled out for 250 odd in both innings. Spinners did well both sides. Gave away lots of runs but picked up wickets too.

Kuldeep's team wasn't playing this game.

Game 4 - Finals - India Blue Vs India Red

Jaddu decides to play this game. So does Mishra.

India Blue pile on 693/6 in 1st innings.

Mishra 2/171
Kuldeep Yadav 1/214

India Red get bowled out for 356.

Jaddu 5/95
Karn Sharma 2/85

India Blue bat again and score 179/5 dec

Kuldeep 3/62
Mishra 1/24

India Red bat finally and get bowled out for 161

Jaddu 5/76
Karn Sharma 3/33

Stats of spinners in that final:

Kuldeep averages 69 with 4 wickets
Mishra averages 65 with 3 wickets
Karn Sharma (Jaddu's partner) averages 23 with 5 wickets
And Jaddu averages 17.1 with 10 wickets.

Sure, he got a bit of scoreboard pressure to play with but to close out a game with a 10fer on THAT track.....its just that Jaddu is DIFFERENT.

Generic run of the mill darters can never do the things Jaddu does. He keeps pegging away and tries to either get batsmen to make mistakes or beats the edges by a small margin. A few batsmen in that game tried to take on Jaddu and got out too.

So you can see....he would do very fine in UAE pitches too. Where he exactly stands as a spinner we will know in due course of time. He is not as good as his stats but he is a very special bowler in his own way.

Though needs to improve a bit now. A bit down in form right now I feel.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

^Outside Asia...Jaddu will be average for most part.

He is NOT a complete spinner. But a weapon in Asia (and any flattish spin track).

If he plays outside Asia, it should be as a support spinner to the main spinner in a 5 bowler lineup.

 

[endymion248]

I don't mind India preparing dustbowls. It makes for entertaining cricket, no different than Green Mambas for England or SA. All pitches are fine except Phattas.

As for Jadeja, the main problem is that he doesn't play when conditions don't suit him as he is the 2nd spinner. So his ranking/averages are inflated because of that. If he did play in unfavourable conditions, his average would be around 30-35 which reflects his quality as a bowler.

 

[Slog]

Those bashing Jadeja here would be first ones to avoid the questions like "What would Yasir average if he played 15 Tests in Australia/NZ?".

Nice to see you left out England there because well having won Pakistan 2 matches there Yasir has shown he can do well in England

Shame can't say same amount Ashwin, let alone Jadeja

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I don't mind India preparing dustbowls. It makes for entertaining cricket, no different than Green Mambas for England or SA. All pitches are fine except Phattas.

As for Jadeja, the main problem is that he doesn't play when conditions don't suit him as he is the 2nd spinner. So his ranking/averages are inflated because of that. If he did play in unfavourable conditions, his average would be around 30-35 which reflects his quality as a bowler.

8 out of 20 tests were outside Asia. Only 1 of those tests were in WI. Rest were in SA, NZ and Eng.

That's a better breakup than even Ashwin and Yasir.

Still Jaddu maintains 23 average.

That's due to the kind of bowler he is. Gives very less runs during high scoring games and picks regular wickets so the averages get maintained.

He averages 41 outside India (but he didn't get to play any tests in Bangladesh or SL where he would average sub 20 with ease). In India he averages 17 and in WI, he averages 15 (played 1 game only).

If Jaddu tours all countries as a main bowler, he would still maintain an average of 25 overall atleast. Maybe high 20s at most. Rating wise, its different.

 

[Ab Fan]

What is wrong with Jadeja being the 7th ranked bowler?

Vernon Philander was also ranked no.1 test bowler in year end ranking.Isn't he a Green track bully?

As expected, unnecessary insecurity among fans out there.

 

[Ab Fan]

Hafeez was also ranked as no.1 odi bowler in 2011/2012 I guess.

 

[endymion248]

8 out of 20 tests were outside Asia. Only 1 of those tests were in WI. Rest were in SA, NZ and Eng.

That's a better breakup than even Ashwin and Yasir.

Still Jaddu maintains 23 average.

That's due to the kind of bowler he is. Gives very less runs during high scoring games and picks regular wickets so the averages get maintained.

He averages 41 outside India (but he didn't get to play any tests in Bangladesh or SL where he would average sub 20 with ease). In India he averages 17 and in WI, he averages 15 (played 1 game only).

If Jaddu tours all countries as a main bowler, he would still maintain an average of 25 overall atleast. Maybe high 20s at most. Rating wise, its different.

I wouldn't call 7/20 a lot. It's a fact that Ashwin plays all of India's tests in conditions that don't suit spin and Jadeja only plays when the captain feels it necessary.

No Jadeja isn't a 25 average bowler. At best 27-30.

And you yourself made this argument in the past that Jadeja's average is low because he doesn't play in unfavorable conditions.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I wouldn't call 7/20 a lot. It's a fact that Ashwin plays all of India's tests in conditions that don't suit spin and Jadeja only plays when the captain feels it necessary.

No Jadeja isn't a 25 average bowler.

And you yourself made this argument in the past that Jadeja's average is low because he doesn't play in unfavorable conditions.

7/20 is 35% of tests.

That's what is the breakup for any Asian spinner when it comes to games in and outside Asia.

When he tours overseas properly, it will rise. I have maintained it for long. But the average will still be around 25-30 for the reasons I mentioned in this thread.

I am talking about average of Jaddu. Not quality or rating (which are determined by impact in different situations and not mere overall stats).

Jaddu played as lead spinner in SA, NZ and Eng in many games where Ashwin was dropped for his Joberg screw up.

 

[street cricketer]

I wouldn't call 7/20 a lot. It's a fact that Ashwin plays all of India's tests in conditions that don't suit spin and Jadeja only plays when the captain feels it necessary.

No Jadeja isn't a 25 average bowler. At best 27-30.

And you yourself made this argument in the past that Jadeja's average is low because he doesn't play in unfavorable conditions.

Nope.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

7/20 is 35% of tests.

That's what is the breakup for any Asian spinner when it comes to games in and outside Asia.

When he tours overseas properly, it will rise. I have maintained it for long. But the average will still be around 25-30 for the reasons I mentioned in this thread.

I am talking about average of Jaddu. Not quality or rating (which are determined by impact in different situations and not mere overall stats).

Jaddu played as lead spinner in SA, NZ and Eng in many games where Ashwin was dropped for his Joberg screw up.

But Ashwin played in the dead bouncy Aussie pattas for 6 tests while Jaddu didn't play there.

So overall Ashwin played in harder conditions than Jaddu but Jaddu played more outside Asia tests (excl WI).

 

[endymion248]

But Ashwin played in the dead bouncy Aussie pattas for 6 tests while Jaddu didn't play there.

So overall Ashwin played in harder conditions than Jaddu but Jaddu played more outside Asia tests (excl WI).

You can't compare to other Asian spinners because other Asians dont play Eng/Aus/SA as often as India does for obvious reasons. India doesn't play the other Asian teams almost at all. Just look at how many tests Ashwin has played in Aus/ENG and compare to Jadeja who was active over that whole period.

Jadeja has a low average because he has been shielded from bad conditions. This is a situation unique to second spinners.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

You can't compare to other Asian spinners because other Asians dont play Eng/Aus/SA as often as India does for obvious reasons. India doesn't play the other Asian teams almost at all. Just look at how many tests Ashwin has played in Aus/ENG and compare to Jadeja who was active over that whole period.

Jadeja has a low average because he has been shielded from bad conditions. This is a situation unique to second spinners.

I can see where you are coming from and I agree with it.

Overall, Ashwin played in much tougher conditions if we take a ground by ground breakdown.

But what I am saying is from the period Ashwin was dropped (after Joberg) till Southampton (Eng), Jaddu was the lead and sole spinner who played regardless of the conditions. That was a bad decision but that's another topic.

He played 7 tests out of 20 outside Asia.

The larger point is that Jaddu is (and will be) a bowler whose stats will be better than what he actually is.

The reason for that is cos he is economical on all pitches and picks wickets - when you take 3/117 on a patta in a game that has been drawn...you aren't that impactful but you haven't destroyed your stats like how other spinners would do...that is why Jaddu will always have good stats...if he plays in Aus in future, his average will get bumped up.....but when he plays in Bangladesh, SL and WI, it will be adjust....overall he would be around 25-30. Its very unlikely he would average 30+ as a spinner when he is averaging 23 playing 35% of his games outside Asia (as the lead and sole spinner).

 

[endymion248]

I can see where you are coming from and I agree with it.

Overall, Ashwin played in much tougher conditions if we take a ground by ground breakdown.

But what I am saying is from the period Ashwin was dropped (after Joberg) till Southampton (Eng), Jaddu was the lead and sole spinner who played regardless of the conditions. That was a bad decision but that's another topic.

He played 7 tests out of 20 outside Asia.

The larger point is that Jaddu is (and will be) a bowler whose stats will be better than what he actually is.

The reason for that is cos he is economical on all pitches and picks wickets - when you take 3/117 on a patta in a game that has been drawn...you aren't that impactful but you haven't destroyed your stats like how other spinners would do...that is why Jaddu will always have good stats...if he plays in Aus in future, his average will get bumped up.....but when he plays in Bangladesh, SL and WI, it will be adjust....overall he would be around 25-30. Its very unlikely he would average 30+ as a spinner when he is averaging 23 playing 35% of his games outside Asia (as the lead and sole spinner).

Yes but what was his average in that period where he was sole spinner outside Asia? 40+ iirc, which isn't that different from what other spinners average outside Asia (despite getting destroyed as you say).

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Yes but what was his average in that period where he was sole spinner outside Asia? 40+ iirc, which isn't that different from what other spinners average outside Asia (despite getting destroyed as you say).

Yes...you are right.....but 2 things:

1. Jaddu is NOT supposed to average the same as other spinners bcos he is nowhere as complete as them. Any other spinner with his limitation would average 60 to 80 outside Asia but Jaddu's economy and strikes here and there pegs it back to 40.

2. Jaddu more than makes up for those stats when he goes back at home. He averages 17 in India. Even Ashwin doesn't average as good as him. Nor did Kumble average that in India in 90s.

Economical bowling + sufficient strikes = Good averages.

Jaddu will be always average well in India, SL, Bang and most likely WI.

Will be bad outside Asia (barring spin tracks - like in SA he averages 25 cos he got to play in Durban track).

Hence his career average will always be solid REGARDLESS of his impact.

 

[street cricketer]

Ashwin has bowled 249 overs in Eng, SA, Aus or NZ since Jaddu's debut.

Jaddu has bowled 307 overs in the same time frame.

Jadeja was the first choice spinner for India under Dhoni after Ashwin's Jo'burg debacle. It has changed under Kohli though.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Nice to see you left out England there because well having won Pakistan 2 matches there Yasir has shown he can do well in England

Shame can't say same amount Ashwin, let alone Jadeja

Spinners do well in England, let Ashwin have the same opportunity.

 

[Saurav]

Nice to see you left out England there because well having won Pakistan 2 matches there Yasir has shown he can do well in England

Shame can't say same amount Ashwin, let alone Jadeja

Yasir averaged 41 in England

Ashwin 33,Jadeja 46

And this is when we had literally no score to defend.Were getting shot out for under 150 most times

 

[Slog]

Yasir averaged 41 in England

Ashwin 33,Jadeja 46

And this is when we had literally no score to defend.Were getting shot out for under 150 most times

Come back when he wins India a test Match there. Yasir won 2

 

[Someguy]

What dispicable pitches india is making.. andd they get mad when i say they r making dust trackss. This is bringing disrepute to the game icc should step in and det a standard for international pitches

 

[endymion248]

Yes...you are right.....but 2 things:

1. Jaddu is NOT supposed to average the same as other spinners bcos he is nowhere as complete as them. Any other spinner with his limitation would average 60 to 80 outside Asia but Jaddu's economy and strikes here and there pegs it back to 40.

2. Jaddu more than makes up for those stats when he goes back at home. He averages 17 in India. Even Ashwin doesn't average as good as him. Nor did Kumble average that in India in 90s.

Economical bowling + sufficient strikes = Good averages.

Jaddu will be always average well in India, SL, Bang and most likely WI.

Will be bad outside Asia (barring spin tracks - like in SA he averages 25 cos he got to play in Durban track).

Hence his career average will always be solid REGARDLESS of his impact.

So you do agree that, while he is similar (or worse) to other spinners outside Asia, it's the fact that he gets to play in India (and be second choice to Ashwin outside) which allows him to average under 25 which more talented players like Herath or Swann couldn't manage?
In that situation, how can we say that he wouldn't have similar averages to them (ie in the 30s) if he played in similar conditions?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

So you do agree that, while he is similar (or worse) to other spinners outside Asia, it's the fact that he gets to play in India (and be second choice to Ashwin outside) which allows him to average under 25 which more talented players like Herath or Swann couldn't manage? In that situation, how can we say that he wouldn't have similar averages to them (ie in the 30s) if he played in similar conditions?

I am explaining how Jaddu can average great by being an Indian spinner (who gets to play most of his games in Asia and tour overseas) in response to your first post here:

As for Jadeja, the main problem is that he doesn't play when conditions don't suit him as he is the 2nd spinner. So his ranking/averages are inflated because of that. If he did play in unfavourable conditions, his average would be around 30-35 which reflects his quality as a bowler.

There is a difference between playing in unfavourable conditions (like an Indian touring) AND being born in a country where its relatively harder for spinners to succeed.

Swann averages 29 cos he is from England where he plays majority of his games. Jaddu would average 30s or more if he was from Eng. Herath averages 30s cos in the 1st half of his career, he wasn't that good.

But Jaddu as an Indian or SL or even Pakistani....Jaddu would average 20s cos he would keep his average low in Asian conditions (vast majority of his games) and minimize damage in overseas conditions. Impact wise, he won't be as good as his stats suggest but good enough (for Asian conditions).

Reasoning given in above posts.

---

By the way, as I explained above, Jaddu played 7 overseas tests as a lead spinner and NOT as a second choice. But now he is a second choice. Important difference to be noted.

 

[endymion248]

I am explaining how Jaddu can average great by being an Indian spinner (who gets to play most of his games in Asia and tour overseas) in response to your first post here:



There is a difference between playing in unfavourable conditions (like an Indian touring) AND being born in a country where its relatively harder for spinners to succeed.

Swann averages 29 cos he is from England where he plays majority of his games. Jaddu would average 30s or more if he was from Eng. Herath averages 30s cos in the 1st half of his career, he wasn't that good.

But Jaddu as an Indian or SL or even Pakistani....Jaddu would average 20s cos he would keep his average low in Asian conditions (vast majority of his games) and minimize damage in overseas conditions. Impact wise, he won't be as good as his stats suggest but good enough (for Asian conditions).

Reasoning given in above posts.

---

By the way, as I explained above, Jaddu played 7 overseas tests as a lead spinner and NOT as a second choice. But now he is a second choice. Important difference to be noted.

Noted.

 

[Sin Nombre]

All I have noted from this thread is that Rahane and Kohli are top 5 test batsmen at the moment. If you think Jadeja is over-ranked, you also have to consider at the same time that Rahane and Kohli are underranked.


Also Jadeja averages 25 in SA and 20 in WI; that's a better away record than most other bowlers.

 

[soso_killer]

So you will not answer the question even after 5 times?

If NZ were so pathetic against spin, how did they LEVEL the series against Pakistan in UAE?

Now before you say "its the flat tracks" let me quote what you just said.

IT SHOULD NOT matter cos they are rubbish against spin so flattish spin tracks shouldn't matter.

Also....NZ spinners were Craig, Santner, Sodhi and Jeetan. Santner averages 29 (playing only outside Asia) before that tour.

1. Indian batsmen couldn't play ATG Tahir (who average 40s in tests), Harmer and co.....but could magically play Santner and co so well that they had to average in 50s in this tour? In the same pitches where our spinners averaged great. This is NOT about NZ batting but purely about Indian batting.

How did that happen?



We would love but unfortunately can't.

But since you talk about that, here's another teaser:

2. Explain how NZ spinners averaged the same in India as they did in UAE tour against the best spin playing team in the world...yet the horrible rank turner bully Indian spinners averaged great?

----

NZ are pathetic without McCullum, that much is obvious. He was the one who enabled a draw in the UAE. KW played second fiddle.

It's ironic that you accuse me of avoiding your question when you've deliberately ignored my points and questions as well. When last did NZ win a series in Asia?

And why would Indian batting have anything to do with how NZ tackle spin? That doesn't make sense to me.
This NZ side is mentally weak and it's there for all to see.

 

[soso_killer]

But Jadeja averages 25 in South Africa.

Philander averages 20 and 22 in India and UAE

 

[Aman]

NZ are pathetic without McCullum, that much is obvious. He was the one who enabled a draw in the UAE. KW played second fiddle.

It's ironic that you accuse me of avoiding your question when you've deliberately ignored my points and questions as well. When last did NZ win a series in Asia?

And why would Indian batting have anything to do with how NZ tackle spin? That doesn't make sense to me.
This NZ side is mentally weak and it's there for all to see.

McCullum was really something else, the fact the team is a shell of the team it is now without him is testament to just how great of a leader he was. Played one of the all time great captains knocks to win us a series against India, then there's his amazing innings against Pakistan in the UAE and fastest ever 100 against Aus.

The team we have now is a bunch of quitters, a lot of that has to do with KW's timid attitude. He's simply not a strong enough individual to lead a struggling side.

 

[soso_killer]

McCullum was really something else, the fact the team is a shell of the team it is now without him is testament to just how great of a leader he was. Played one of the all time great captains knocks to win us a series against India, then there's his amazing innings against Pakistan in the UAE and fastest ever 100 against Aus.

The team we have now is a bunch of quitters, a lot of that has to do with KW's timid attitude. He's simply not a strong enough individual to lead a struggling side.

I know R. Taylor lost the captaincy in controversial circumstances, but why not give the captaincy back to him in order to alleviate pressure on your best batsman? KW needs to concentrate on his batting, not sure he is tough enough or has the know how to galvanize the group.

Another candidate should be Watling, he looks mentally strong and a fighter. He's a gutsy character.

 

[Sin Nombre]

Philander averages 20 and 22 in India and UAE

Philander is a very good bowler.

 

[Abdullah719]

I know R. Taylor lost the captaincy in controversial circumstances, but why not give the captaincy back to him in order to alleviate pressure on your best batsman? KW needs to concentrate on his batting, not sure he is tough enough or has the know how to galvanize the group.

Another candidate should be Watling, he looks mentally strong and a fighter. He's a gutsy character.

Taylor looks like he should be dropped himself, so not too sure about that.

 

[Aman]

I know R. Taylor lost the captaincy in controversial circumstances, but why not give the captaincy back to him in order to alleviate pressure on your best batsman? KW needs to concentrate on his batting, not sure he is tough enough or has the know how to galvanize the group.

Another candidate should be Watling, he looks mentally strong and a fighter. He's a gutsy character.

Taylor is struggling for form.

I get the feeling KW will probably step down after this summer. His form has taken a beating and after his post match interview, he isn't the type of cricketer you want to be leading a side. You can tell he takes the losses very personally and that are bearing over him heavily. Kane himself said he was struggling with the workload before the Zimbabwe series. It's just too much for him too early. To be leading a struggling side in all formats at 26, and to be expected to carry the batting at 3 would be way too much for most.

Watling would make a great captain, but he's struggling for runs at the moment too. There aren't many good options atm, IMO they should split it across formats.

 

[Chrish]

McCullum was really something else, the fact the team is a shell of the team it is now without him is testament to just how great of a leader he was. Played one of the all time great captains knocks to win us a series against India, then there's his amazing innings against Pakistan in the UAE and fastest ever 100 against Aus.

The team we have now is a bunch of quitters, a lot of that has to do with KW's timid attitude. He's simply not a strong enough individual to lead a struggling side.

Do you think Kohli would make a better captain than KW in side like NZ?