Realistically how big is the gap between the Indian Test team and the Pakistan Test team?

[Saj]

Contrasting fortunes of late for both Test teams.

One is under the established leadership of Virat Kohli, while the other has a new captain in Babar Azam.

Many feel that the Pakistan Test team is going through yet another re-building phase without too many world-class players, whereas India looks to have introduced some new and very capable players

What are your thoughts on the gap between the Indian Test side and the Pakistan side?

Perhaps you think the gap is small or even non existent, or maybe you think the gap is huge and ever-increasing?

 

[Mamoon]

The gap is humungous. India has been the better Test side since the 2006-2007 period, but the gap today is at an all-time high.

A player by player comparison paints a very sorry picture.

Rohit/Gill/KL Rahul/Shaw/Agarwal vs Masood/Abid/Imam/Fakhar

Pujara vs Azhar

Kohli (c) vs Babar (c)

Rahane vs Haris

Vihari vs Fawad

Pant (wk) vs Rizwan (wk)

Ashwin vs Yasir

Jadeja vs Shadab/Zafar

Bumrah vs Shaheen

Shami vs Abbas

Then you have Indian pacers like Ishant, Yadav and B Kumar while Pakistan have Naseem, Musa, Sohail etc.

India basically wins every direct comparison which sums up the embarrassing gulf between the two sides.

The only saving grace for Pakistan at the moment is that Rizwan’s glove work is better than Pant’s, but it is only a matter of time before Pant improves his keeping skills and he will continue to go from strength to strength as a batsman.

The bitter reality is that there is no comparison between the two cricket nations in any format. The gap between talent, skill, application and mental strength is incredibly huge.

 

[Shafi]

Looks like 10-0 for India. If you mark player by player we will loose in every department. Our best player Babar is nowhere near Kohli, Pant is well ahead of Rizwan, Shaheen is just a starter to Bumra. Our other players are just rubbish and not even complete against B grade players.

 

[Snowflake]

India is the better team for sure. But we cannot measure by how much unless the two teams play against each other. The transitive law does not apply in cricket.

 

[TeamPak95]

Currently, they beat us in all departments minus Rizwan's keeping vs Pant's. Post Aane Do series, minus the CT17 final, 2014 Asia Cup match, and perhaps Amir's 2016 Asia Cup spell, the gap between the two teams is equivalent to the gap between the T-rex and the guy hiding in the porta potty from Jurassic Park I.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The main difference is still the batting as it has been for a couple of decades now. Their bowling is slightly better, but not so much in it. The Indian team also have a more professional approach due to exposure to higher quality cricket both domestically and internationally due to their financial clout.

 

[Rana]

The gap didn’t seem much in New Zealand

Quite a gap in Australia

Pakistan a far better side in England

We just don’t really know in Asia.

 

[Devadwal]

The gap didn’t seem much in New Zealand

Quite a gap in Australia

Pakistan a far better side in England

We just don’t really know in Asia.

In South africa india >>>>Pakistan
In West Indies India >>>> Pakistan
In Asia india >>>>≥>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pakistan

 

[NishanKonar]

Main difference is in bowling attacks. Its totally the reverse. India now has a pace attack capable of taking 20 wickets overseas while Pakistan's pace attack is woefully lacking ( much like India's attack of the 90s ) except in England

Batting wise the gap is not so much. Indian batting is better in Australia & South Africa but Pakistan will do slightly better in England

 

[Varun]

Right at this moment, the Indian 'Test' Team is a Mobile Hospital Unit.

 

[Kroll]

There is no comparison unfortunately.

As well as man for man, India is way better in all aspects of cricket - batting, fielding, bowling. Their performances in Australia showing they're much stronger mentally as well.

I don't like seeing threads like these as its just embarrassing.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

The same question being asked in every thread - regardless of whether it is related to India or Pakistan or not.

Good to have one place for this debate, even though I suspect this thread won't stop debate on others despite the noble intention of the OP.

The gap is big - with Pakistan trailing due to three factors:
1. Mindset
2. Strategy
3. Leadership

They are punching far far below their weight.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

The gap is humungous. India has been the better Test side since the 2006-2007 period, but the gap today is at an all-time high.

A player by player comparison paints a very sorry picture.

Rohit/Gill/KL Rahul/Shaw/Agarwal vs Masood/Abid/Imam/Fakhar

Pujara vs Azhar

Kohli (c) vs Babar (c)

Rahane vs Haris

Vihari vs Fawad

Pant (wk) vs Rizwan (wk)

Ashwin vs Yasir

Jadeja vs Shadab/Zafar

Bumrah vs Shaheen

Shami vs Abbas

Then you have Indian pacers like Ishant, Yadav and B Kumar while Pakistan have Naseem, Musa, Sohail etc.

India basically wins every direct comparison which sums up the embarrassing gulf between the two sides.

The only saving grace for Pakistan at the moment is that Rizwan’s glove work is better than Pant’s, but it is only a matter of time before Pant improves his keeping skills and he will continue to go from strength to strength as a batsman.

The bitter reality is that there is no comparison between the two cricket nations in any format. The gap between talent, skill, application and mental strength is incredibly huge.

And then some of our fans want India to take Pakistan to be the "Final Frontier that must be conquered" before the Indian Test Team can be called an ATG.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Three Quarters of the Indian team is injured. Atleast pakistan team goes out on the field to play.

 

[liam26]

But but but India cannot be considered an ATG side unless it wins series against Great Pakistan..

 

[Savak]

Beating India now will be sweeter and will actually mean something this time .

 

[Junaids]

Contrasting fortunes of late for both Test teams.

One is under the established leadership of Virat Kohli, while the other has a new captain in Babar Azam.

Many feel that the Pakistan Test team is going through yet another re-building phase without too many world-class players, whereas India looks to have introduced some new and very capable players

What are your thoughts on the gap between the Indian Test side and the Pakistan side?

Perhaps you think the gap is small or even non existent, or maybe you think the gap is huge and ever-increasing?

India has a team which was very good, in which all the top players except Bumrah are already in decline, which is obvious from how injury-prone they are. And their administration is good - lots of India A overseas Tests, but their coach is as poor as Pakistan's.

Pakistan has an outgoing Chief Selector who has discarded the team of 20-somethings that he inherited, and replaced them with kids and mediocre geriatrics. But underneath that there is actually more potential in the 21-26 age range for Pakistan (Shaheen, Shadab, Faheem, Saud Shakeel) and there is also more potential in the younger age group (Rohail, Naseem) than in its Indian counterparts.

In national team sport, when you don't have an outstanding generation often your best bet is to discard the older players and groom the next generation.

I would cite the example of Italy in football. They were the 1982 World Cup winners, but the 1986 team was beaten in the Round of Sixteen and clearly was not going to be a viable 1990 team for when they hosted the World Cup. And they simply had to at least reach the last four when they would host it in 1990.

So Italy took a young, inexperienced team to Euro'88, knowing that many of the 22 and 24 year olds they were taking weren't as good as excluded guys aged 30 and 32, but that in 1990 they would have improved while the older players would have got worse.

In 1990 they came 3rd. In 1994 they came 2nd.

And it happened because they allowed 1988 to be a time when they would groom guys aged 22-25, rather than just picking the best players. And that generation gave them 6 years of excellent service from 1988 to 1994, getting better and better.

This is what Pakistan should have been doing since Inzamam/Arthur's last Test in early 2019. The only Indian players who will still be top players by the 2023 World Test Championship Final are Gill, Kohli, Pant and Bumrah. And they need to find 7 good enough players to support them.

For me, Pakistan finds itself in the same situation. The generation of 30-something year olds is not a winning generation.

So move on.

Not to kids, which is even more destructive, just find a base of guys in their twenties who will perform well enough in the 2021-23 World Test Championship cycle, and still be young enough for the 2023-25 cycle.

 

[Hasan123]

The gap is massive. You are genuinely delusional if you can't admit India is a much better team than Pakistan. I don't understand why Pakistan fans tremble at the fact at admitting it. Pakistan cricket will never change if you can't admit how far behind we are the best test team in the last few years.

 

[Local.Dada]

Gotta say I am pleasantly surprised by junaids post. It isn’t way out there as I originally expected considering the subject of this thread

 

[Buffet]

India has a team which was very good, in which all the top players except Bumrah are already in decline, which is obvious from how injury-prone they are. And their administration is good - lots of India A overseas Tests, but their coach is as poor as Pakistan's.

Pakistan has an outgoing Chief Selector who has discarded the team of 20-somethings that he inherited, and replaced them with kids and mediocre geriatrics. But underneath that there is actually more potential in the 21-26 age range for Pakistan (Shaheen, Shadab, Faheem, Saud Shakeel) and there is also more potential in the younger age group (Rohail, Naseem) than in its Indian counterparts.

In national team sport, when you don't have an outstanding generation often your best bet is to discard the older players and groom the next generation.

I would cite the example of Italy in football. They were the 1982 World Cup winners, but the 1986 team was beaten in the Round of Sixteen and clearly was not going to be a viable 1990 team for when they hosted the World Cup. And they simply had to at least reach the last four when they would host it in 1990.

So Italy took a young, inexperienced team to Euro'88, knowing that many of the 22 and 24 year olds they were taking weren't as good as excluded guys aged 30 and 32, but that in 1990 they would have improved while the older players would have got worse.

In 1990 they came 3rd. In 1994 they came 2nd.

And it happened because they allowed 1988 to be a time when they would groom guys aged 22-25, rather than just picking the best players. And that generation gave them 6 years of excellent service from 1988 to 1994, getting better and better.

This is what Pakistan should have been doing since Inzamam/Arthur's last Test in early 2019. The only Indian players who will still be top players by the 2023 World Test Championship Final are Gill, Kohli, Pant and Bumrah. And they need to find 7 good enough players to support them.

For me, Pakistan finds itself in the same situation. The generation of 30-something year olds is not a winning generation.

So move on.

Not to kids, which is even more destructive, just find a base of guys in their twenties who will perform well enough in the 2021-23 World Test Championship cycle, and still be young enough for the 2023-25 cycle.

Spon on as always. The only missing information here is Pakistan needs to pick pacers with height.

 

[Buffet]

The Indian test team is struggling to put 11 fit players. Pakistan did not have that issue. With this trend of injuries, the gap won't exist pretty soon.

 

[Ab Fan]

India has a team which was very good, in which all the top players except Bumrah are already in decline, which is obvious from how injury-prone they are. And their administration is good - lots of India A overseas Tests, but their coach is as poor as Pakistan's.

Pakistan has an outgoing Chief Selector who has discarded the team of 20-somethings that he inherited, and replaced them with kids and mediocre geriatrics. But underneath that there is actually more potential in the 21-26 age range for Pakistan (Shaheen, Shadab, Faheem, Saud Shakeel) and there is also more potential in the younger age group (Rohail, Naseem) than in its Indian counterparts.

In national team sport, when you don't have an outstanding generation often your best bet is to discard the older players and groom the next generation.

I would cite the example of Italy in football. They were the 1982 World Cup winners, but the 1986 team was beaten in the Round of Sixteen and clearly was not going to be a viable 1990 team for when they hosted the World Cup. And they simply had to at least reach the last four when they would host it in 1990.

So Italy took a young, inexperienced team to Euro'88, knowing that many of the 22 and 24 year olds they were taking weren't as good as excluded guys aged 30 and 32, but that in 1990 they would have improved while the older players would have got worse.

In 1990 they came 3rd. In 1994 they came 2nd.

And it happened because they allowed 1988 to be a time when they would groom guys aged 22-25, rather than just picking the best players. And that generation gave them 6 years of excellent service from 1988 to 1994, getting better and better.

This is what Pakistan should have been doing since Inzamam/Arthur's last Test in early 2019. <B>The only Indian players who will still be top players by the 2023 World Test Championship Final are Gill, Kohli, Pant and Bumrah</B>. And they need to find 7 good enough players to support them.

For me, Pakistan finds itself in the same situation. The generation of 30-something year olds is not a winning generation.

So move on.

Not to kids, which is even more destructive, just find a base of guys in their twenties who will perform well enough in the 2021-23 World Test Championship cycle, and still be young enough for the 2023-25 cycle.

Jadeja is there as well who is as fit as anyone you would like to have. His backup is someone as good as Pandya.

Siraj is another pacer whose age is 26 and he is another lethal pacer we have for the future.

Honestly, we have our backups ready for Pujara and Rahane, we just need to phase them out conveniently. But currently, they are doing pretty fine to be dropped. Guys like KL, Pandya, Mayank, Vihari, Kuldeep are basically our backups.

 

[Junaids]

Jadeja is there as well who is as fit as anyone you would like to have. His backup is someone as good as Pandya.

Siraj is another pacer whose age is 26 and he is another lethal pacer we have for the future.

Honestly, we have our backups ready for Pujara and Rahane, we just need to phase them out conveniently. But currently, they are doing pretty fine to be dropped. Guys like KL, Pandya, Mayank, Vihari, Kuldeep are basically our backups.

Jadeja is 32 years old, so he will be 36 when the 2025 World Test Championship comes around.

And his away record is:

Batting average 32.52
Bowling average 32.44

It's a very similar record to Shadab Khan, and when you limit it to outside Asia, it's worse than Shadab's record.

I see how you can persist with a 21 year old with this record, but a 32 year old? I'm not so sure.

 

[Junaids]

I guess what I'm saying is that it's a big gap currently between a team full of old but high quality players and a team with old mediocrities.

But that should be a trigger for Pakistan to try to jump the starting gun and get the next generation (born 1994-2000) in place.

But not kids born after 2000 or geriatrics born before 1990

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

Jadeja is there as well who is as fit as anyone you would like to have. His backup is someone as good as Pandya.

Siraj is another pacer whose age is 26 and he is another lethal pacer we have for the future.

Honestly, we have our backups ready for Pujara and Rahane, we just need to phase them out conveniently. But currently, they are doing pretty fine to be dropped. Guys like KL, Pandya, Mayank, Vihari, Kuldeep are basically our backups.

Look, India are, as a sum if it's parts, streets ahead of Pakistan on all formats. However, one of India's biggest issues is that the international cricket economy is fully dependent on it. The amount of churns that the top level Indian players go through is currently absolutely ridiculous. And these guys will now play atleast an extra four games in the IPL as well. On top of that there's the ever present problem on how/when to phase out the legendary seniors in the current team, creating a log jam of talent that can't play for India 'at the correct point of their development.

So, whilst India will remain one of the top teams in the world, they have their own issues.

Pakistan, through some sensible management, selection and development of a core set of 20 somethings, can only improve from the current transitional motley crew we have.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

As trump would say... it’s yyuuugge.
Pakistan just don’t have the bowling currently to challenge any top side anywhere.
No plans and no consistency to build enough pressure.

 

[pillionrider]

If Pakistan were to tour India today they would get the battering of a lifetime.

But if the same two test sides face off at a neutral venue, Pak would still lose the series but win several sessions. They'd perhaps even get into winning positions, but eventually lose.

Pak collectively pulls extra ability out of thin air when playing India and so man-by-man comparisons can be skewed. But they'd get thrashed in India because they'd terribly intimidated and I don't see any star player who can rise above the crowds and odds.

 

[Itachi]

Pakistan is unpredictable when cornered. So it'll be difficult to ascertain the outcome. No one knows which side of Pakistan will show up.

 

[Gilly]

Bigger than what Pakistan think and not as big as India think.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Contrasting fortunes of late for both Test teams.

One is under the established leadership of Virat Kohli, while the other has a new captain in Babar Azam.

Many feel that the Pakistan Test team is going through yet another re-building phase without too many world-class players, whereas India looks to have introduced some new and very capable players

What are your thoughts on the gap between the Indian Test side and the Pakistan side?

Perhaps you think the gap is small or even non existent, or maybe you think the gap is huge and ever-increasing?

The problem is, Pakistan not being able to play any homes games for a long time. Pakistani players not being able to participate in IPL, which is unfortunate. As much as I hate to say it, I am no fan of IPL, but IPL has played a huge role in India developing their players..

I hope Pakistan can unearth more Babar Azams and decent bowlers, no true cricket fan would want Pakistan to go the WI way, I really crave to watch another Wasim Akram, Saeed Anwar etc...

 

[Colorblind Genius]

The problem is, Pakistan not being able to play any homes games for a long time. Pakistani players not being able to participate in IPL, which is unfortunate. As much as I hate to say it, I am no fan of IPL, but IPL has played a huge role in India developing their players..

I hope Pakistan can unearth more Babar Azams and decent bowlers, no true cricket fan would want Pakistan to go the WI way, I really crave to watch another Wasim Akram, Saeed Anwar etc...

To some extent I agree but I think IPL does not have as big of a role as you may think it has in the development of Indian TEST players.

What really makes the difference in India is the organized cricket played at the school level.

And the best part is, most of your school level kids play with regulation leather/hardball in the very well organized inter-school tournaments.

They get good coaching, and they have lots of heroes to emulate, and then, no wonder, once in while you get a school kid's name popping up for scoring a triple century in a school game.

I mean, to be able to have developed this kind of stamina and focus at such an early level, speaks volumes.
And this happens WAY BEFORE IPL is put in the equation of a player's career.

I think what IPL does is, it instill a sense of bravery and confidence in batsman, that you can after ANY bowler and smack him out of the park. And once those mental shackles are broken, the player becomes super confident to face the same bowlers either in TESTS or in ODIs. However, the basic batting technique, skill and stamina has already been build in the player long before he plays IPL. Thanks again to India's excellent school cricket system.

 

[Savak]

As unfair the exclusion of the Pakistani players from the IPL is and the blatant discrimination by the IPL Franchise owners who are showing their ultra nationalistic colours where they will give $2-3 million to anyone but a Pakistani player, the PCB will have to find a way to get better and better quality of cricket from the PSL to help Pakistan's limited overs team catch up with the rest of the world.

Even now, comparing the IPL and the PSL in the UAE, its a first world league vs a fourth world league, the quality of batting on display in the IPL in the UAE and the innovative stroke play, it shows that the players playing in the IPL give their life, heart and soul to prepare for the league because it is the difference between living a life or poverty and enjoying a $2-3 million paycheque, for that kind of payout ofcourse a local player will get a 6 pack, train his behind off, practice and improvise the impossible shots to full blooded yorkers.

Pakistan's limited overs thinking and execution has still not moved away from the 80's and 90's

 

[Bhaijaan]

The gap didn’t seem much in New Zealand

Quite a gap in Australia

Pakistan a far better side in England

We just don’t really know in Asia.

Most accurate reply.

 

[JaDed]

If Junaids isn’t able to color the gap then there defn is a big gap.

Irrespective with new domestic structure and improved economy it should be in place next 5-10 years and gap will reduce.

Just keep retired PCT players away.. hopefully Afridi doesn’t apply to be the u-19 coach.

 

[Giannis]

India is the better team by a country mile but I think if Pakistan gets a good coach then they can at least give India a fight.

 

[Giannis]

If Junaids isn’t able to color the gap then there defn is a big gap.

Irrespective with new domestic structure and improved economy it should be in place next 5-10 years and gap will reduce.

Just keep retired PCT players away.. hopefully Afridi doesn’t apply to be the u-19 coach.

Coach? He's going to be in the U19 team lol.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

As unfair the exclusion of the Pakistani players from the IPL is and the blatant discrimination by the IPL Franchise owners who are showing their ultra nationalistic colours where they will give $2-3 million to anyone but a Pakistani player, the PCB will have to find a way to get better and better quality of cricket from the PSL to help Pakistan's limited overs team catch up with the rest of the world.

Even now, comparing the IPL and the PSL in the UAE, its a first world league vs a fourth world league, the quality of batting on display in the IPL in the UAE and the innovative stroke play, it shows that the players playing in the IPL give their life, heart and soul to prepare for the league because it is the difference between living a life or poverty and enjoying a $2-3 million paycheque, for that kind of payout ofcourse a local player will get a 6 pack, train his behind off, practice and improvise the impossible shots to full blooded yorkers.

Pakistan's limited overs thinking and execution has still not moved away from the 80's and 90's

Would PSL franchises give more money to Indian players in current environment and invite them to play?
PSL is creating good money as per Pakistan economy, why run after Millions in India.

England and New Zealand took a political stance in 2003 WC and refused to play matches against Zimbabwe.
Pakistan i believe skipped one Asia cup due to Political tensions with India.
So why time and again, this thing about discrimination comes up.

 

[Jadejagoat]

Pakistan has way more talent than any country including India. They just don't pick their best players due to politics and nepotism. Hence the poor results. When they sort it out, they would blow away Sena and India.

 

[observer1]

The biggest takeaway is India play as a solid unit. Pakistan don't.

We saw a solid shift under Mickey and Sarfraz however I feel the team didn't evolve/improve after his replacement. We just took a step sideways and never dealt with the serious issues the team faces.

 

[Robert]

The Indian bowling has more strength, it keeps things tight when wickets aren’t coming. The Pakistan bowling is skilled but seems to let the pressure off at key moments.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

If Junaids isn’t able to color the gap then there defn is a big gap.

Irrespective with new domestic structure and improved economy it should be in place next 5-10 years and gap will reduce.

Just keep retired PCT players away.. hopefully Afridi doesn’t apply to be the u-19 coach.

Why reservations for Lala? He would make the boys tagda and play fearless cricket

 

[kingusama92]

Just put it like this.

India is playing chess while Pakistan is playing checkers. Especially these days with Misbah-Waqar at the helm.

The man-to-man comparisons are obvious, but tactically and fitness-wise India is miles ahead too. It's a poor state of affairs and I don't see this gap closing until they become serious about their coaching and analytics starting in domestic cricket. The sport is way too modern for a "hope and pray" approach.

 

[sharmaji]

Not much in my opinion. PCT just needs to get its team management in order.

If India is trying to be a dominant force like Australia, then I'd say Pakistan should emulate New Zealand. Smaller country, limited resources available for cricket, but generates smart world-class athletes. I wish someone in PCB management studies the NZ cricket model and adopts some of their strategies for PCT.

I feel Pak is already on a path to recovery, with home series (where it should defeat all opposition teams 3-0 or 2-0) and emergence of world-class players like Babar, Shaheen Shah Afridi and Rizwan.

 

[Indiafan]

The main difference is still the batting as it has been for a couple of decades now. Their bowling is slightly better, but not so much in it. The Indian team also have a more professional approach due to exposure to higher quality cricket both domestically and internationally due to their financial clout.

This is wrong. Our bowling is head and shoulder above Pakistan, and above our batting. Our pace bowlers have been averaging between 20 to 25, both home and away individually, in last 5 + years (Includes Bumrah, Shami, Ishant, Yadav and Bhuvi all averaging 25 or below both home and away). Hattricks in all formats, Concussion substitutes in almost every test series we played. This is not even mentioning spinners like Ashwin and Jadeja who average similarly

Meanwhile Pakistan has Abbas averaging below 30 and even their best well over 30s and others averaging above 40 and 50

Stats blow what you said away

In fact Pakistan has sometimes batted better in England and NZ than India, its India's bowling which are miles better than Pakistan ATM

 

[Indiafan]

I guess what I'm saying is that it's a big gap currently between a team full of old but high quality players and a team with old mediocrities.

But that should be a trigger for Pakistan to try to jump the starting gun and get the next generation (born 1994-2000) in place.

But not kids born after 2000 or geriatrics born before 1990

Except we won and drew in Australia with bowler like Siraj and Siani, batsmen like Gill and Pant and Vihari. All young players

Nice try though

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

The gap is not huge. The difference though is how India is persisting with players and providing them chances to grow in spite of their initial failures like Vihari and Mayank Agarwal. Compare this to Pakistan who gave debut to Abdullah Shafique in a wrong format and once he failed have banished him from the team and did not even get picked in PSL.

 

[ChTab]

The gap between both teams is massive, IMO if Pakistan & India play a 5 match test series anywhere in the world India will demolish Pakistan by 4-0 or maybe 5-0, not only that 2 or 3 matches would end as innings defeat.

 

[RyanRyan10]

India - Pakistan = Pakistan - Bangladesh

 

[Jadejagoat]

The gap is not huge. The difference though is how India is persisting with players and providing them chances to grow in spite of their initial failures like Vihari and Mayank Agarwal. Compare this to Pakistan who gave debut to Abdullah Shafique in a wrong format and once he failed have banished him from the team and did not even get picked in PSL.

Totally agreed. It's all about giving chances. Opportunities. Also Pakistan have more talent in their domestic system. Just don't get chances.

Bowling department is clearly where Pakistan excels in general. Talent wise, they are ahead of Sena and India as well in bowling. They haven't nurured them yet.

India's bowling is ATG level and is currently top 2. However Pakistan imo has potential to be way better. Pakistan bowlers are all young. They just need guidance. A better coaching system will help the Pakistani side topple big sides easily. Had the stuck with Arthur, I reckon they would be number 2 in the world.

Nurturing players should be easy for Pakistan. Surprised they just don't give more chances to the young bowlers. Husnain, Rauf are all test ready easily.

 

[ChTab]

The main difference is still the batting as it has been for a couple of decades now. Their bowling is slightly better, but not so much in it. t.

I don't agree with you, main difference is bowling. Pakistan have failed to claim 20 wickets in a match in last 5 test matches, the last time they did get 20 wickets it was against bangladesh at pindi & if you want to count away games only Pakistan haven't been able to get 20 wickets since the 3rd test vs South Africa which started in January 2019, all these things implies that we have a pathetic bowling attack. Although our batting not great but still is capable of putting up decent runs just like what they have done in NZ. Batting did put up fight with half decent scores on difficult pitches but our bowling was pathetic even in friendly bowling conditions. So India's bowling is miles ahead of Pakistan's bowling but I do agree with you that the Indian team does have a more professional approach due to exposure to higher quality cricket both domestically and internationally.

 

[Jadejagoat]

India's bowlig. Is better than any version of Pakistan's goat bowling attack. That's the reality we live in.

India batting is worse than Pakistan currently.

 

[bones]

I recently visited Pakistan, came back on new year's day actually. Based on my short experience I've got to say that almost none of the guys I spoke to showed any interest in cricket and very few played including the kids. In the place we're from, Sahiwal, there used to be 5/6 matches simultanously on the ground in front of our house but this time there was 1. I always go Pakistan in the christmas holidays so it's nothing to do with the weather.

Pakistan as a nation seems to me (this is just my opinion) lost a lot of it's love for cricket. You're never going to get the level of play back until the talent pool increases and the talent pool won't increase unless you get kids playing which they're not. So this gap in quality between Pakistan and everyone else will stay for a few a years.

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

Totally agreed. It's all about giving chances. Opportunities. Also Pakistan have more talent in their domestic system. Just don't get chances.

Bowling department is clearly where Pakistan excels in general. Talent wise, they are ahead of Sena and India as well in bowling. They haven't nurured them yet.

India's bowling is ATG level and is currently top 2. However Pakistan imo has potential to be way better. Pakistan bowlers are all young. They just need guidance. A better coaching system will help the Pakistani side topple big sides easily. Had the stuck with Arthur, I reckon they would be number 2 in the world.

Nurturing players should be easy for Pakistan. Surprised they just don't give more chances to the young bowlers. Husnain, Rauf are all test ready easily.

Not sure if you're serious. I don't agree that Hasnain or Rauf are test ready and that we have the most talent in the world. All I want to say is that we can perform way better if there's more consistency in selection in general.

 

[ChTab]

I recently visited Pakistan, came back on new year's day actually. Based on my short experience I've got to say that almost none of the guys I spoke to showed any interest in cricket and very few played including the kids. In the place we're from, Sahiwal, there used to be 5/6 matches simultanously on the ground in front of our house but this time there was 1. I always go Pakistan in the christmas holidays so it's nothing to do with the weather.

Pakistan as a nation seems to me (this is just my opinion) lost a lot of it's love for cricket. You're never going to get the level of play back until the talent pool increases and the talent pool won't increase unless you get kids playing which they're not. So this gap in quality between Pakistan and everyone else will stay for a few a years.

That's completely true, when I was growing up & whenever I went to any ground in my hometown there were 6 or 7 teams playing simultaneously at one ground this was the case till 2011 probably at that time Lahore incident was only 2 years old so people were still passionate about the game at that time. Now that incident is about 12 years old a full generation of people have grown up in this time & they haven't been able to watch cricket matches in grounds, nowadays you will see almost all of these grounds completely empty. also our education system & parents are to blame for this as well along with the easy access of smartphones in our society. I'm blaming parents & education system because they never allow kids to have a bit of extra time for these sort of activities, normally a student is forced to spend about 12 to 15 hours of his/ her day amongst book which includes 6 to 7 hrs of school 2 to 3 hrs of tuition & around 3 hours of study at home which is compulsory if you have strict parents & these hours are for kids who haven't completed their SSC yet. Number of hours spent amongst books will increase when these kids go to colleges & universities. So our parents & education system deserves a massive blame in our downfall in cricket and other sports.

 

[ex-q-zit]

Pakistan has way more talent than any country including India. They just don't pick their best players due to politics and nepotism. Hence the poor results. When they sort it out, they would blow away Sena and India.

Firstly, please can you elaborate based on which study you say Pakistan has more talent than any other country. Even if you go into the past yes pakistan had exciting pace bowlers in 80s and 90s and early 2000s. But talent doesn't just mean bowlers. India for that matter always had a better batting unit throughout.

Secondly, even if we accept Pak has loads of talented palyers who aren't guven opportunities, cricket isn't just about talent. You also need several other qualities such as attitude, discipline, mental toughness etc.

To give you a few examples Jonathan Trott was an exciting english cricketer who scored loads of runs but retired prematuredly due to depression. Vinod Kambli had more talent than Sachin Tendulkar but without the much needed discipline his career derailed. Hanuma Vihari and Ashwin do not have as many centuries as a Fawad Alam or Azhar Ali nor the batting "talent" but then showed the grit and determination to play out 40 odd overs which Pakistan failed to do against NZ.

 

[jusarrived]

If not for our captain clueless the gap would have been much bigger . Indias batting is still a worry, but once Virat goes we should see a more settled and solid batting lineup

 

[JaDed]

I recently visited Pakistan, came back on new year's day actually. Based on my short experience I've got to say that almost none of the guys I spoke to showed any interest in cricket and very few played including the kids. In the place we're from, Sahiwal, there used to be 5/6 matches simultanously on the ground in front of our house but this time there was 1. I always go Pakistan in the christmas holidays so it's nothing to do with the weather.

Pakistan as a nation seems to me (this is just my opinion) lost a lot of it's love for cricket. You're never going to get the level of play back until the talent pool increases and the talent pool won't increase unless you get kids playing which they're not. So this gap in quality between Pakistan and everyone else will stay for a few a years.

PSL will help there, inter city rivalry is huge, will not help test cricket though..

 

[UzmanBeast]

PSL will help there, inter city rivalry is huge, will not help test cricket though..

PSL will help develop interest and bring revenue towards the T20 team, and given that we have a few T20 World Cups on the way, the board will really like the attention from fans. As far as test cricket is concerned, you are right to say that the PSL will do nothing.

To improve our test rankings, there is an approach we must follow. It is an approach that India followed many years ago. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but India made their home into a fortress by creating pitches which oppositions stood no chance on. Very rarely did India lose test matches at home, and it has probably been around 5 years since they've lost a test match at home.

Having that strong home ground factor means that your team can improve in native conditions, where they know what lines and lengths to bowl. That means that your players over time gained experience in home games. Before 2018, India didn't really compete overseas except for in South Africa. Their away situation was better than ours at the moment, but they weren't a world-class away team. They focused on making themselves the best team at home.

Now, fast forward about 3 years, and India is reaping the rewards of the team they built on the back of home performances. They have a class side, and that approach is what Pakistan should be targetting in my opinion.

 

[dildilpak]

PSL will help develop interest and bring revenue towards the T20 team, and given that we have a few T20 World Cups on the way, the board will really like the attention from fans. As far as test cricket is concerned, you are right to say that the PSL will do nothing.

To improve our test rankings, there is an approach we must follow. It is an approach that India followed many years ago. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but India made their home into a fortress by creating pitches which oppositions stood no chance on. Very rarely did India lose test matches at home, and it has probably been around 5 years since they've lost a test match at home.

Having that strong home ground factor means that your team can improve in native conditions, where they know what lines and lengths to bowl. That means that your players over time gained experience in home games. Before 2018, India didn't really compete overseas except for in South Africa. Their away situation was better than ours at the moment, but they weren't a world-class away team. They focused on making themselves the best team at home.

Now, fast forward about 3 years, and India is reaping the rewards of the team they built on the back of home performances. They have a class side, and that approach is what Pakistan should be targetting in my opinion.

I dont really see how India really benefitted from tailored pitches. If anything, Indian test pitches in the last few years have gone the other way - there is something in there for everybody. This came about as a result of their pace bowling arsenal & their finger spinners who dont really need a traditional crumbling or dustbowl Indian wicket to succeed.

The reason India is succeeding overseas is simply because of the vast improvement in their pace bowlers. They always had good batting, now with their potent bowling force they are a more complete team now.

 

[Rafa]

PSL will help there, inter city rivalry is huge, will not help test cricket though..

Has IPL helped to develop inter-city rivalries ? And if it has then which ones are intense rivalries ?

 

[UzmanBeast]

I dont really see how India really benefitted from tailored pitches. If anything, Indian test pitches in the last few years have gone the other way - there is something in there for everybody. This came about as a result of their pace bowling arsenal & their finger spinners who dont really need a traditional crumbling or dustbowl Indian wicket to succeed.

The reason India is succeeding overseas is simply because of the vast improvement in their pace bowlers. They always had good batting, now with their potent bowling force they are a more complete team now.

The pitches played a huge factor. When big teams came to India, they made dust bowls and spun those teams away. When smaller teams came, they made pitches that could assist pacers, and that's how their pace attack developed. Their pacers also learned how to toil hard on dead wickets, and where to bowl.

 

[StreetSmart]

The gap is humungous. India has been the better Test side since the 2006-2007 period, but the gap today is at an all-time high.

A player by player comparison paints a very sorry picture.

Rohit/Gill/KL Rahul/Shaw/Agarwal vs Masood/Abid/Imam/Fakhar

Pujara vs Azhar

Kohli (c) vs Babar (c)

Rahane vs Haris

Vihari vs Fawad

Pant (wk) vs Rizwan (wk)

Ashwin vs Yasir

Jadeja vs Shadab/Zafar

Bumrah vs Shaheen

Shami vs Abbas

Then you have Indian pacers like Ishant, Yadav and B Kumar while Pakistan have Naseem, Musa, Sohail etc.

India basically wins every direct comparison which sums up the embarrassing gulf between the two sides.

The only saving grace for Pakistan at the moment is that Rizwan’s glove work is better than Pant’s, but it is only a matter of time before Pant improves his keeping skills and he will continue to go from strength to strength as a batsman.

The bitter reality is that there is no comparison between the two cricket nations in any format. The gap between talent, skill, application and mental strength is incredibly huge.

I use to hate your comments against the Pakistan team but now realizing you are absolutely right about everything regarding the team and their future. The way our cricket is declining soon cricket will be as same as our hockey.

 

[dildilpak]

The pitches played a huge factor. When big teams came to India, they made dust bowls and spun those teams away. When smaller teams came, they made pitches that could assist pacers, and that's how their pace attack developed. Their pacers also learned how to toil hard on dead wickets, and where to bowl.

Somebody correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think India has had those kind of pitches even for bigger teams in the last few years.

 

[StreetSmart]

There is simply no comparison because we don't select players on Merit, our cricketing system is corrupt, our players are with limited techniques and their salaries are nothing as compared to what BCCI is paying to their cricketers. So I am sorry there is no comparison and there will be no comparison.

 

[cricketAXEpert]

Contrasting fortunes of late for both Test teams.

One is under the established leadership of Virat Kohli, while the other has a new captain in Babar Azam.

Many feel that the Pakistan Test team is going through yet another re-building phase without too many world-class players, whereas India looks to have introduced some new and very capable players

What are your thoughts on the gap between the Indian Test side and the Pakistan side?

Perhaps you think the gap is small or even non existent, or maybe you think the gap is huge and ever-increasing?

There is a big gap and it is expected, India has improved greatly by improving there First class structure and they are playing test matches a plenty against top sides.
Pakistan had a weak first class for a long time, current changes will take time to bear fruit.
India did not get where it is today overnight they started by winning at home. Pakistan had no international Cricket at Home. UAE was never home plus conditions in UAE changed the way Pakistan played. Batsmen forgot how to bat against bounce and Bowlers learned to bowl in UAE conditions. Like Yasir Shah he broke records in UAE but is only a shadow of his self outside. Sarfraz he tries to sweep pace bowlers (why because it works in UAE where bounce is low)

Pakistan gets too few tests that too mostly against weaker sides. Not getting enough tests meant Pakistan could not give ample chances to players who sat on the Bench Example Fawad Alam. Lack of matches allowed sub standard players like Asad Shafiq to play 1 good innings per season and stay in the side (he played 77 tests without ever becoming a reliable batsman). We failed to develop our players due to sheer lack of Tests and quality opposition both the Bowlers & batsmen couldn't rise above mediocrity.

Last but not the least Poor selections and Nepotism. That was ruined many a careers

 

[Buffet]

Somebody correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think India has had those kind of pitches even for bigger teams in the last few years.

Eng had scores of

537
477
400
283
..
..

Aus scored 450+
SA scored 431

In it was all about dustbowls, none of these teams will score 250+ with Ashwin and Jadeja.

Here are pacers contributions in the last 5 years at home,

Umesh - 70+ wickets avg of 24
Shami - 50+ wickets avg 22
Ishant - 35 wickets avg 25
BHuvi - 18 wickets avg of 20

--------------------------------------------

Pacers have taken 170-180 wickets collectively with avg below 25 in that dustbowl.


Dustbowl theory is old and not true. India is simply too strong at home. Visiting teams would have to play out of their skin to win a test in India. It can be done, but the story of dustbowl misses the point about how Eng lost badly despite scoring 400+ many times on flat tracks and how the pacers have been doing the job for India at home.

 

[JaDed]

Has IPL helped to develop inter-city rivalries ? And if it has then which ones are intense rivalries ?

Yeah, yours truly got into one in a bad way in college, more mature now.

1)Chennai-Bangalore
2)Mumbai-Chennai
3)Mumbai-Bangalore

Honestly lol Bangalore has 0 IPL wins lol.

 

[andy0204]

Yeah, yours truly got into one in a bad way in college, more mature now.

1)Chennai-Bangalore
2)Mumbai-Chennai
3)Mumbai-Bangalore

Honestly lol Bangalore has 0 IPL wins lol.

I would like to add Kolkata in that list.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

The pitches played a huge factor. When big teams came to India, they made dust bowls and spun those teams away. When smaller teams came, they made pitches that could assist pacers, and that's how their pace attack developed. Their pacers also learned how to toil hard on dead wickets, and where to bowl.

What nonsense lol.

So confidently wrong.

I dont really see how India really benefitted from tailored pitches. If anything, Indian test pitches in the last few years have gone the other way - there is something in there for everybody. This came about as a result of their pace bowling arsenal & their finger spinners who dont really need a traditional crumbling or dustbowl Indian wicket to succeed.

The reason India is succeeding overseas is simply because of the vast improvement in their pace bowlers. They always had good batting, now with their potent bowling force they are a more complete team now.

Yep....

Dharmashala...probably the paciest pitch in India was served up against Aussies. It was a decider which India won comfortably.

England pitches were flat where their pacers looked toothless while ours were uprooting trees.

Against SA, the pitches were flat but our pacers were hitting their bats with speed and venom.

These newbie posters are laughable.

It's just a chore to pick apart and destroy each of their points one by one...so it's better to ignore them.

Eng had scores of

537
477
400
283
..
..

Aus scored 450+
SA scored 431

In it was all about dustbowls, none of these teams will score 250+ with Ashwin and Jadeja.

Here are pacers contributions in the last 5 years at home,

Umesh - 70+ wickets avg of 24
Shami - 50+ wickets avg 22
Ishant - 35 wickets avg 25
BHuvi - 18 wickets avg of 20

--------------------------------------------

Pacers have taken 170-180 wickets collectively with avg below 25 in that dustbowl.


Dustbowl theory is old and not true. India is simply too strong at home. Visiting teams would have to play out of their skin to win a test in India. It can be done, but the story of dustbowl misses the point about how Eng lost badly despite scoring 400+ many times on flat tracks and how the pacers have been doing the job for India at home.

Yeah...

Our pacers did well against all teams at home.

There were a few dust bowls (2015 Mohali, Nagpur....2017 Pune, maybe Bangalore) but vast majority of the pitches were flat or had something for everyone.

 

[Extreme Pace]

Massive gap right, particularly in terms of bowling. I just can't see the current Pakistani attack being able to pick 20 Indian wickets on most tracks.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

PSL will help develop interest and bring revenue towards the T20 team, and given that we have a few T20 World Cups on the way, the board will really like the attention from fans. As far as test cricket is concerned, you are right to say that the PSL will do nothing.

To improve our test rankings, there is an approach we must follow. It is an approach that India followed many years ago. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but India made their home into a fortress by creating pitches which oppositions stood no chance on. Very rarely did India lose test matches at home, and it has probably been around 5 years since they've lost a test match at home.

Having that strong home ground factor means that your team can improve in native conditions, where they know what lines and lengths to bowl. That means that your players over time gained experience in home games. Before 2018, India didn't really compete overseas except for in South Africa. Their away situation was better than ours at the moment, but they weren't a world-class away team. They focused on making themselves the best team at home.

Now, fast forward about 3 years, and India is reaping the rewards of the team they built on the back of home performances. They have a class side, and that approach is what Pakistan should be targetting in my opinion.

Agree with your fundamental premise.

Just that pitches weren't tailored to be dust bowls.

It was on the spin side (2012 series which we lost, 2013 series and 2015 series).

Then it started getting flatter and flatter.

The key is not to prepare dust bowls or super spin tracks and win.

We used to go hardcore on that in 90s and it didn't help us. We never won anything overseas.

The key is to prepare pitches that aren't that extreme but closer to your strengths so you win some games...and then slowly open up other types of pitches.

Going to extremes will actually lose you games unless you have a legendary batting or bowling lineup.

Ironically, 2 out of 3 losses Indian team faced in 2010s came in dust bowl/super heavy spin tracks (Pune 2017 and Mumbai 2012).

 

[Indiafan]

The pitches played a huge factor. When big teams came to India, they made dust bowls and spun those teams away. When smaller teams came, they made pitches that could assist pacers, and that's how their pace attack developed. Their pacers also learned how to toil hard on dead wickets, and where to bowl.

How do I know you havent watched a single match? Because the dust bowl and spin comments are out dated by at least 10 years

I have quoted stats before but because people like you ignore

65 to 70% of wickets in India are taken by PACERS. EVERY SINGLE one of out PACERS average below 25 in India in past 5+ years. And all these against BIG teams

It is a good idea to at least have some basic checks before making random assertions


Dustbowls and big spinning pitches have not been a part of Indian home game for decades

 

[Indiafan]

Totally agreed. It's all about giving chances. Opportunities. Also Pakistan have more talent in their domestic system. Just don't get chances.

Bowling department is clearly where Pakistan excels in general. Talent wise, they are ahead of Sena and India as well in bowling. They haven't nurured them yet.

India's bowling is ATG level and is currently top 2. However Pakistan imo has potential to be way better. Pakistan bowlers are all young. They just need guidance. A better coaching system will help the Pakistani side topple big sides easily. Had the stuck with Arthur, I reckon they would be number 2 in the world.

Nurturing players should be easy for Pakistan. Surprised they just don't give more chances to the young bowlers. Husnain, Rauf are all test ready easily.

There is absolutely no evidence of Pakistan having more talent. Just making random assertions without proof is just wild fantasies. i can also make a claim that India has more talent than every other country combined but Kohli is not giving chances

 

[RajBan]

Somebody correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think India has had those kind of pitches even for bigger teams in the last few years.

That's true. That is one good thing about Kohli. He did not get into a comfort zone with doctored pitches unlike his predecessor. He has basically taken Ganguly's approach a notch ahead in terms of getting sporting pitches that has helped the bowling line-up to grow and apply. With dust bowls between 2011-2015 Ashwin and Jadeja used to get wickets while sleep walking and pacers used to act as a backup cast with not much role to play. Consequently we used to have pathetic performances when travelling to SENA as Ashwin, Jadeja would be completely ineffective and pacers suddenly asked to bowl long consistent spells on helpful pitches which they were not familiar with. Kohli ensured that we end this farce and gets the credit for grooming all condition bowling line up. I don't like Kohli as a captain because I feel he has under achieved with the resources he had due to his lack of tactical acumen but this is one thing he deserves every piece of credit.

 

[Jadejagoat]

There is absolutely no evidence of Pakistan having more talent. Just making random assertions without proof is just wild fantasies. i can also make a claim that India has more talent than every other country combined but Kohli is not giving chances

Yes India and Sena do. But Pakistan talent is better. They just don't get opportunities. It's all about talent and opportunities.

Rauf, Husnain, Gul etc are all quality bowlers who aren't given chances in test cricket.

Then they have Wasim khan, Waqas Maqsood etc who have done well in domestics.

 

[Jadejagoat]

Shaheen
Naseem
Gul
Rauf
Dilbar Hussain

So many fast bowlers. They are blessed. If they had better coaching staff and personnel to help themz Pakistan would wreak havoc. Lucky for India and Sena, Misbah is in charge.

 

[AMSS]

Yes India and Sena do. But Pakistan talent is better. They just don't get opportunities. It's all about talent and opportunities.

Rauf, Husnain, Gul etc are all quality bowlers who aren't given chances in test cricket.

Then they have Wasim khan, Waqas Maqsood etc who have done well in domestics.

I have always believed that pakistan may talent bohat hay. Once they sort out the internal squibbles....

 

[UzmanBeast]

How do I know you havent watched a single match? Because the dust bowl and spin comments are out dated by at least 10 years

I have quoted stats before but because people like you ignore

65 to 70% of wickets in India are taken by PACERS. EVERY SINGLE one of out PACERS average below 25 in India in past 5+ years. And all these against BIG teams

It is a good idea to at least have some basic checks before making random assertions


Dustbowls and big spinning pitches have not been a part of Indian home game for decades

Granted that the pacers have done well, but spinner play the bigger role when touring teams come to India, especially if they're SENA teams who lack quality spinners (barring Nathan Lyon).

My point in my previous post was that India has made a fortress at home to support their performances and build a very formidable team.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Agree with your fundamental premise.

Just that pitches weren't tailored to be dust bowls.

It was on the spin side (2012 series which we lost, 2013 series and 2015 series).

Then it started getting flatter and flatter.

The key is not to prepare dust bowls or super spin tracks and win.

We used to go hardcore on that in 90s and it didn't help us. We never won anything overseas.

The key is to prepare pitches that aren't that extreme but closer to your strengths so you win some games...and then slowly open up other types of pitches.

Going to extremes will actually lose you games unless you have a legendary batting or bowling lineup.

Ironically, 2 out of 3 losses Indian team faced in 2010s came in dust bowl/super heavy spin tracks (Pune 2017 and Mumbai 2012).

A dust bowl might be overstepping the line, and I agree. But it should definitely be a pitch that supports spinners.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Somebody correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think India has had those kind of pitches even for bigger teams in the last few years.

Yeah, they haven't. I was incorrect. Their spinners excelled when the pitches were older and condusive to spin.