Remembrance

[Robert]

Siegfried Sassoon -

I found him in the guard-room at the Base.
From the blind darkness I had heard his crying
And blundered in. With puzzled, patient face
A sergeant watched him; it was no good trying
To stop it; for he howled and beat his chest.
And, all because his brother had gone west,
Raved at the bleeding war; his rampant grief
Moaned, shouted, sobbed, and choked, while he was kneeling
Half-naked on the floor. In my belief
Such men have lost all patriotic feeling

 

[Captain caveman]

Peace is the only solution!

RIP to all the fallen.

 

[Saj]

Always amazes me how some folk in the UK don't realise that many Asians lost their lives in the Wars.

 

[Kroll]

Always amazes me how some folk in the UK don't realise that many Asians lost their lives in the Wars.

That's a bit of an inconvenience for the white British and right wing as they want to champion their own agendas.

More British Asians are coming to know of the contribution made by subcontinent soldiers but of course they had no choice and they had to fight for the monarch of the Empire.

 

[Kroll]

Remembrance Sunday disrupted by fireworks in Salford

A man who disrupted a Remembrance Sunday event with fireworks had to be rushed away from angry veterans by police.

The fireworks exploded in the sky as hundreds of people stood in silence at 11:00 GMT and listened to the Last Post at the cenotaph in Eccles, Salford.

A man had set them off from a window ledge in a disused pub across the road.

Angry veterans began shouting, "Get him out!" and trying to break down the pub door before officers took the man away.

Greater Manchester Police (GMP) said a 38-year-old man had been arrested on suspicion of a public order offence and was being questioned.

Traffic cones thrown
Some members of the crowd attempted to climb up to the window from which a man, believed to be a squatter at the pub, had ignited the fireworks.

A police officer blocked the door while shouting into his radio as he struggled to hold back the crowd, before reinforcements arrived.

The man, wearing what appeared to be army-style fatigues, then appeared at the window to remonstrate with the crowd.

Traffic cones were thrown up at him and he retreated back inside.

When police reinforcements arrived, the man was handcuffed with his head held down and rushed out of the pub to a waiting police car.

A large crowd remained at the scene while a team of police officers guarded the entrance.

A group of people, who appeared to be squatting at the pub, remained inside.

A GMP spokeswoman said officers were called shortly after 11:05 to reports of a disturbance at a pub on Church Street.

"Initial inquiries suggest that a firework was thrown through the window of the pub", she said.

No injuries were reported, she added.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-50367340

 

[ElRaja]

More British Asians are coming to know of the contribution made by subcontinent soldiers but of course they had no choice and they had to fight for the monarch of the Empire.

who told you that?

my grandfather served in the British army of his own choice, as did a fair few others from our area, but many didn't.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">What an honour, I’ve interviewed one of the oldest surviving Muslim war veteran, 99-year-old Inayet Ali.<br>It’s often forgotten that 4 million people volunteered for the Indian Army to support Britain in its war effort and fight against fascism.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/RemembranceSunday?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#RemembranceSunday</a> .<br>More on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/C4News?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#C4News</a> <a href="https://t.co/dkXDpySERb">pic.twitter.com/dkXDpySERb</a></p>— Darshna Soni (@darshnasoni) <a href="https://twitter.com/darshnasoni/status/1193492121677901824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 10, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Robert]

Always amazes me how some folk in the UK don't realise that many Asians lost their lives in the Wars.

Sure, hundreds of thousands of Indians and Afghans all along the Great War trench system for instance, and the valiant Indian Army in WW2.

It’s good to see all the Commonwealth representatives at the parade.

 

[Markhor]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vH3-Gt7mgyM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Millions of working class and poor folk died at the behest of a power hungry imperial elite. RIP.

 

[irfan]

Millions of working class and poor folk died at the behest of a power hungry imperial elite. RIP.

so true but you'll also find that the so called upper classes & elite were disproportionately affected by this war: approx 12% of ordinary soldiers (working class) were killed but 17% of the Officer class were also killed, the Prime Minister at the time Herbert Asquith lost a son, while future PM Bonar Law lost two. Anthony Eden lost two brothers & many other politicians lost relatives, compare that to recent wars instigated by UK where this class/power elite remained untouched.

 

[Slog]

who told you that?

my grandfather served in the British army of his own choice, as did a fair few others from our area, but many didn't.

why did they?

was there any other reason but monetary? just curios not trying to take a dig.

I just cannot imagine being so loyal to the colonising crown to want to lay down your life for it

 

[ElRaja]

why did they?

was there any other reason but monetary? just curios not trying to take a dig.

I just cannot imagine being so loyal to the colonising crown to want to lay down your life for it

its a mix of a few things

firstly, its an archaic view, but to the best of my understanding being landowners they saw other professions as being beneath them, and soldering was considered an honourable job for a landowners son. there was no way they were going to be allowed to do any job that involved working in the service of another individual.

secondly my grandfather was a bit of an anglophile, he was the first in the village to learn how to read and write english, according to elders in the village he had an understanding of history too, so to him it didn't matter whether the rulers were white or brown, they were all feudal and imperialist in nature but he pbly admired certain elements of the brits.

finally, it was also probably a sense of adventure, to get to see the world, until you are in a war, the idea of war can be quite romantic, especially when the only english accounts were pro war propoganda, this isnt just in india, but in the british isles too.

this is mostly conjecture and my understanding from what elders have told me, he died in the war.

 

[Bewal Express]

We had the 2min silence and the kids were very respectful. What was interesting was that they were angry about the rainbow poppies and their attempt to link a separate issue with the rememberence.

 

[rahulrulezz]

its a mix of a few things

firstly, its an archaic view, but to the best of my understanding being landowners they saw other professions as being beneath them, and soldering was considered an honourable job for a landowners son. there was no way they were going to be allowed to do any job that involved working in the service of another individual.

secondly my grandfather was a bit of an anglophile, he was the first in the village to learn how to read and write english, according to elders in the village he had an understanding of history too, so to him it didn't matter whether the rulers were white or brown, they were all feudal and imperialist in nature but he pbly admired certain elements of the brits.

finally, it was also probably a sense of adventure, to get to see the world, until you are in a war, the idea of war can be quite romantic, especially when the only english accounts were pro war propoganda, this isnt just in india, but in the british isles too.

this is mostly conjecture and my understanding from what elders have told me, he died in the war.

Sorry, your last line got me. Your grandfather died in that war?

 

[ElRaja]

Sorry, your last line got me. Your grandfather died in that war?

in ww2, and his family was never officially notified of his death, rumours of his existence swirled for decades since some of the men who came back said he got made a pow, he escaped, etc, etc, until i managed to track down his war record about ten years ago.

 

[rahulrulezz]

in ww2, and his family was never officially notified of his death, rumours of his existence swirled for decades since some of the men who came back said he got made a pow, he escaped, etc, etc, until i managed to track down his war record about ten years ago.

If you don’t mind, would you mind telling what exactly happened. Was he actually made a POW, and shiv front did he fight in.

What did elders of the village say when he enrolled himself into the war.

 

[Nostalgic]

its a mix of a few things

firstly, its an archaic view, but to the best of my understanding being landowners they saw other professions as being beneath them, and soldering was considered an honourable job for a landowners son. there was no way they were going to be allowed to do any job that involved working in the service of another individual.

secondly my grandfather was a bit of an anglophile, he was the first in the village to learn how to read and write english, according to elders in the village he had an understanding of history too, so to him it didn't matter whether the rulers were white or brown, they were all feudal and imperialist in nature but he pbly admired certain elements of the brits.

finally, it was also probably a sense of adventure, to get to see the world, until you are in a war, the idea of war can be quite romantic, especially when the only english accounts were pro war propoganda, this isnt just in india, but in the british isles too.

this is mostly conjecture and my understanding from what elders have told me, he died in the war.

I recall us discussing this on my intro thread years ago...

Both my grandfathers were WWII vets, as were both my wife’s grandfathers. In our part of the country (what is now Rawalpindi division), it wasn’t uncommon for the men of entire villages to be away serving. My paternal village was unique in that most of the men were in the navy, my grandfather being the odd one out, having been in the army.

In addition to the reasons you listed, I wonder if it had something to do with the arid landscape not being the breadbasket Eastern Punjab was, so not everyone could stay and live off and work the land, so the army was the default avenue for those seeking escape. In addition to the land not being conducive to agriculture, it wasn’t as if the area was a hub of industry either. A favorite anecdote of my maternal family is that my maternal grandfather, being the eldest son of the eldest son, was earmarked to control the land, and dropped out of school: the other boys, brothers and cousins etc, were made to attend school, after which many of them left for the army, most as non-commissioned but a notable few went off to Dehradun for the military academy. The family hit upon hard times, and my grandfather had to enlist in the military after all, but since school hadn’t been considered necessary for him, he had to be non-commissioned. Two cousins who had attended Dehradun went on to make generals in the Pakistan Army, and were both heroes of the 1965 war. My grandfather had been like an elder brother to them, so they socialized with him openly, which their fellow officers found very odd.

Another possible reason for heavy recruitment around that part of the country was the whole “martial race” theory, which I suspect many of the locals eagerly bought into. @KB may be able to shed more light on this theory, which I think lingered on in official thinking even after Pakistan came into existence.

 

[sweep_shot]

Prominent Canadian ice hockey commentator Don Cherry has been fired for controversial comments on new immigrants and Remembrance Day poppies.

Cherry complained on-air this weekend that he rarely sees people he believes to be newcomers wearing the symbol.

His remarks prompted widespread condemnation from the hockey world.

On Monday, the Sportsnet network said that in the wake of the remarks "it is the right time for him to immediately step down".

"During the broadcast, he made divisive remarks that do not represent our values or what we stand for," Sportsnet president Bart Yabsley said in a statement.

Cherry is a former ice hockey player and coach who launched his career as a commentator for the game in the 1980s.

He has built his celebrity through his appearance on Coach's Corner, a segment of Hockey Night in Canada - a television staple in the country since 1952.

What did Cherry say?

Speaking on the Hockey Night in Canada show on Saturday, Cherry singled out Toronto immigrants for not wearing poppies.

"At least you can pay a couple bucks for a poppy," he said.

"You people... you love our way of life, you love our milk and honey, at least you can pay a couple bucks for a poppy or something like that," Cherry said.

"These guys paid for your way of life that you enjoy in Canada, these guys paid the biggest price."

Why do people wear poppies?

The origins of the poppy as an emblem of remembrance lie with the opening lines of the World War One poem In Flanders Fields by Canadian officer John McCrae: "In Flanders fields the poppies blow, between the crosses, row on row."

Poppies are predominantly worn in the UK and Commonwealth nations such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. They are also used to a lesser extent in the US.

What was the reaction?

The words prompted a backlash online, including calls for the 85-year-old to resign from his lengthy television career.

On Sunday, the National Hockey League, television co-host Ron MacLean, Hockey Canada, and network Sportsnet issued statements censuring Cherry's remarks.

MacLean called the comments "hurtful and prejudiced" and apologised for failing to intervene.

He apologised to viewers for mishandling "a divisive moment" after he gave the remarks a thumbs-up.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan tweeted a thread highlighting Canadian veterans from minority groups, saying he hoped "we can turn this into a moment where we can learn about all who have served".

The Canadian Broadcast Standards Council, a national self-regulatory organisation, said on Monday it received so many complaints following the broadcast that it would no longer accept any more on the issue.

Who is Cherry?
Cherry has been on Canadian television screens for decades and is well known for his sports punditry, his flamboyant, custom-made suits and his blunt manner.

He has also long been a fierce supporter of Canada's military, military families and their causes.

But unapologetic remarks on issues from fighting in hockey and female sports reporters in dressing rooms to French-Canadians and "pinkos" that "ride bicycles and everything" have frequently landed him in hot water.

His sometimes outrageous comments have previously prompted viewer complaints.

In 2004, amid a debate around whether hockey players should wear visors to prevent injury, Cherry said the gear was only worn by "Europeans and French guys", widely seen as a slight.

A few years later, he cheered the election of late Toronto Mayor Rob Ford by telling opponents of the controversial politician: "Put that in your pipe, you left-wing kooks."

And in 2011, Cherry called a trio of former hockey enforcers - the sport's on-ice fighters - "turncoats" and "hypocrites" after they criticised aspects of violence in the sport.

Cherry offered a rare mea culpa for those remarks.

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50241256.

 

[Robert]

Millions of working class and poor folk died at the behest of a power hungry imperial elite. RIP.

While class after class at Eton and Harrow went straight into the trenches too. Everybody fought. The Blackadder view of safe Lord Melchett eating well in nice digs while sending men to die is wrong, as seventy British Generals died.

Young Officers such as Macmillan and Hume worked in the muck alongside the miners and farmhands and gained respect for them, and so the One Nation Tory was born.

 

[ElRaja]

If you don’t mind, would you mind telling what exactly happened. Was he actually made a POW, and shiv front did he fight in.

What did elders of the village say when he enrolled himself into the war.

sure. i remember finding the records and being a bit sad that he had died in action, however later research made me realise being a Japanese pow was literal horror, so in some ways it wasn't as bad as when i initially found out. the lesser of two evils if you will.

his war record has his battalion, regiment, and date of death, and this in of itself can be fairly useful, however when i searched these records i found that the actual battle he was involved in is fairly extensively covered, it was known as operation krohcol.

in a nutshell it was britains response to the japanese invasion of thailand, the timing of which had taken the brits by surprise a few days earlier. however after crossing the frontier, for some reason command decided to not take a strategically important ridge (which was the initial objective) but wait for the morning, further delays meant they didn't get close until mid-day the next day where they were ambushed by the waiting japanese.

the majority of my grandfathers regiment perished, it was the first day of the counter offensive into japanese thailand which ultimately failed, and thailand allied itself to japan until the end of the war.

the elders didnt think much of it, since as [MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] mentions it was a fairly common. however when the reality of what had happened dawned on my great grand mother it pretty much broke her heart, apparently she spent her time, day in day out, sitting on a "charpai" looking at the gate waiting for her son to come home until she hunched over and lost her sight. as they say its usually the mothers who lose most in war.

 

[ElRaja]

I recall us discussing this on my intro thread years ago...

Both my grandfathers were WWII vets, as were both my wife’s grandfathers. In our part of the country (what is now Rawalpindi division), it wasn’t uncommon for the men of entire villages to be away serving. My paternal village was unique in that most of the men were in the navy, my grandfather being the odd one out, having been in the army.

In addition to the reasons you listed, I wonder if it had something to do with the arid landscape not being the breadbasket Eastern Punjab was, so not everyone could stay and live off and work the land, so the army was the default avenue for those seeking escape. In addition to the land not being conducive to agriculture, it wasn’t as if the area was a hub of industry either. A favorite anecdote of my maternal family is that my maternal grandfather, being the eldest son of the eldest son, was earmarked to control the land, and dropped out of school: the other boys, brothers and cousins etc, were made to attend school, after which many of them left for the army, most as non-commissioned but a notable few went off to Dehradun for the military academy. The family hit upon hard times, and my grandfather had to enlist in the military after all, but since school hadn’t been considered necessary for him, he had to be non-commissioned. Two cousins who had attended Dehradun went on to make generals in the Pakistan Army, and were both heroes of the 1965 war. My grandfather had been like an elder brother to them, so they socialized with him openly, which their fellow officers found very odd.

Another possible reason for heavy recruitment around that part of the country was the whole “martial race” theory, which I suspect many of the locals eagerly bought into. @KB may be able to shed more light on this theory, which I think lingered on in official thinking even after Pakistan came into existence.

agree with most of this, rajputs still buy into the martial race thing, and i am told are vastly over represented in pakistani armed forces officer class. someone told me more than half of nishan-e-haider awardees are rajputs, i havnt confirmed this tbh, my own maternal grandfather ended up in intelligence for pakistan.

 

[Saj]

Sure, hundreds of thousands of Indians and Afghans all along the Great War trench system for instance, and the valiant Indian Army in WW2.

It’s good to see all the Commonwealth representatives at the parade.

But the ignorance of some won't allow them to accept this or believe that it happened.

 

[Nostalgic]

sure. i remember finding the records and being a bit sad that he had died in action, however later research made me realise being a Japanese pow was literal horror, so in some ways it wasn't as bad as when i initially found out. the lesser of two evils if you will.

his war record has his battalion, regiment, and date of death, and this in of itself can be fairly useful, however when i searched these records i found that the actual battle he was involved in is fairly extensively covered, it was known as operation krohcol.

in a nutshell it was britains response to the japanese invasion of thailand, the timing of which had taken the brits by surprise a few days earlier. however after crossing the frontier, for some reason command decided to not take a strategically important ridge (which was the initial objective) but wait for the morning, further delays meant they didn't get close until mid-day the next day where they were ambushed by the waiting japanese.

the majority of my grandfathers regiment perished, it was the first day of the counter offensive into japanese thailand which ultimately failed, and thailand allied itself to japan until the end of the war.

the elders didnt think much of it, since as [MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] mentions it was a fairly common. however when the reality of what had happened dawned on my great grand mother it pretty much broke her heart, apparently she spent her time, day in day out, sitting on a "charpai" looking at the gate waiting for her son to come home until she hunched over and lost her sight. as they say its usually the mothers who lose most in war.

My paternal grandfather saw action against the Japanese in Java, my wife’s paternal grandfather in Burma. One lasting consequence was that my grandfather could never bring himself to buy Japanese electronics or vehicles. The electronics were easy enough to avoid, vehicles much less so. Not only was most public transportation Japanese, so were all the vehicles a middle-class family could afford: German or American vehicles were mostly the domain of the rich. My parents’ first vehicle was a Honda Accord (why it had to be this make and model is a story in itself, which I’ll share some other day), but it was a while before my grandfather consented to ride in it.

 

[KB]

I recall us discussing this on my intro thread years ago...

Both my grandfathers were WWII vets, as were both my wife’s grandfathers. In our part of the country (what is now Rawalpindi division), it wasn’t uncommon for the men of entire villages to be away serving. My paternal village was unique in that most of the men were in the navy, my grandfather being the odd one out, having been in the army.

In addition to the reasons you listed, I wonder if it had something to do with the arid landscape not being the breadbasket Eastern Punjab was, so not everyone could stay and live off and work the land, so the army was the default avenue for those seeking escape. In addition to the land not being conducive to agriculture, it wasn’t as if the area was a hub of industry either. A favorite anecdote of my maternal family is that my maternal grandfather, being the eldest son of the eldest son, was earmarked to control the land, and dropped out of school: the other boys, brothers and cousins etc, were made to attend school, after which many of them left for the army, most as non-commissioned but a notable few went off to Dehradun for the military academy. The family hit upon hard times, and my grandfather had to enlist in the military after all, but since school hadn’t been considered necessary for him, he had to be non-commissioned. Two cousins who had attended Dehradun went on to make generals in the Pakistan Army, and were both heroes of the 1965 war. My grandfather had been like an elder brother to them, so they socialized with him openly, which their fellow officers found very odd.

Another possible reason for heavy recruitment around that part of the country was the whole “martial race” theory, which I suspect many of the locals eagerly bought into. @KB may be able to shed more light on this theory, which I think lingered on in official thinking even after Pakistan came into existence.

There is a fair amount of work on this (especially relevant is the work of Tan Tai Yong - The Garrison State).

During the 19th century, the Punjab supplanted north-central India as the principal recruiting ground for the Indian Army. Important here was Punjab's loyalty in the 1857 revolt and the crucial role that Punjabis played in suppressing the mutineers. In the aftermath, to prevent a recurrence, more Punjabi troops were recruited to act as a counterpoise.

Later in the nineteenth century, in a context where fear of Russian invasion began to dominate thinking, the belief in “Martial Races,” that certain tribes were inherently courageous and warlike, became especially prominent.

On a more mundane level, it was also cheaper for Britain to employ Punjabi soldiers in the Frontier region. The proximity of Punjab to the Frontier meant that compared with Indians from further afield - who had be paid extra allowances - Punjabi soldiers could be paid local rates to serve in the Frontier.

It is, however, important to remember that recruitment was restricted mainly to a few key regions within the province. In the case of Punjabi Muslims it was the region of the Potwar Plateau (specifically the districts of Rawalpindi, Jhelum and Attock) that supplied the bulk of the troops.

Why was recruitment restricted by and large to certain districts? Nostalgic is quite correct to state that this area was not as propitious for agriculture as the irrigated lands of the Canal Colonies. To this material factor, we may note an ideological one: some are likely to have bought in to the idea of martial races. Some would have been aware that their tribes had a long history of military involvement which pre-dated the British (think of the Gakhars).

On ‘pull’ factors, regiments and companies were organised such that recruits were drawn mainly from the same locality. This was seen as protecting tribal solidarity but it meant that recruiting officers looked to the same sources that had supplied the regiment originally. It was also seen as an insurance policy: keeping the tribes compartmentalised so that they could act in counterpoise to one another: ’divide and rule’.

Finally, as a concluding note, we might consider some of the consequences that flowed from Punjab’s position as the ‘sword arm’ of India. First, the intensity of the partition violence in 1947 is likely to be explained to some extent by the militarised nature of society in parts of Punjab and the presence of a large number of demobilised soldiers. Secondly, as the key labour market for the military, a nexus of interests developed between the bureaucracy, landed notables and the army. According Tan Tai Yong the foundations were therefore already in place for a civil-military alliance to take control of the state apparatus at the time of Pakistan's birth.

 

[ElRaja]

My paternal grandfather saw action against the Japanese in Java, my wife’s paternal grandfather in Burma. One lasting consequence was that my grandfather could never bring himself to buy Japanese electronics or vehicles. The electronics were easy enough to avoid, vehicles much less so. Not only was most public transportation Japanese, so were all the vehicles a middle-class family could afford: German or American vehicles were mostly the domain of the rich. My parents’ first vehicle was a Honda Accord (why it had to be this make and model is a story in itself, which I’ll share some other day), but it was a while before my grandfather consented to ride in it.

that's not surprising tbh, whoever in my experience had any sort of military contact with the empire of japan thoroughly detested them. i wont repeat it here but i've heard some very strong views from those who had loved ones who fought against them.

 

[Nostalgic]

There is a fair amount of work on this (especially relevant is the work of Tan Tai Yong - The Garrison State).

During the 19th century, the Punjab supplanted north-central India as the principal recruiting ground for the Indian Army. Important here was Punjab's loyalty in the 1857 revolt and the crucial role that Punjabis played in suppressing the mutineers. In the aftermath, to prevent a recurrence, more Punjabi troops were recruited to act as a counterpoise.

Later in the nineteenth century, in a context where fear of Russian invasion began to dominate thinking, the belief in “Martial Races,” that certain tribes were inherently courageous and warlike, became especially prominent.

On a more mundane level, it was also cheaper for Britain to employ Punjabi soldiers in the Frontier region. The proximity of Punjab to the Frontier meant that compared with Indians from further afield - who had be paid extra allowances - Punjabi soldiers could be paid local rates to serve in the Frontier.

It is, however, important to remember that recruitment was restricted mainly to a few key regions within the province. In the case of Punjabi Muslims it was the region of the Potwar Plateau (specifically the districts of Rawalpindi, Jhelum and Attock) that supplied the bulk of the troops.

Why was recruitment restricted by and large to certain districts? Nostalgic is quite correct to state that this area was not as propitious for agriculture as the irrigated lands of the Canal Colonies. To this material factor, we may note an ideological one: some are likely to have bought in to the idea of martial races. Some would have been aware that their tribes had a long history of military involvement which pre-dated the British (think of the Gakhars).

On ‘pull’ factors, regiments and companies were organised such that recruits were drawn mainly from the same locality. This was seen as protecting tribal solidarity but it meant that recruiting officers looked to the same sources that had supplied the regiment originally. It was also seen as an insurance policy: keeping the tribes compartmentalised so that they could act in counterpoise to one another: ’divide and rule’.

Finally, as a concluding note, we might consider some of the consequences that flowed from Punjab’s position as the ‘sword arm’ of India. First, the intensity of the partition violence in 1947 is likely to be explained to some extent by the militarised nature of society in parts of Punjab and the presence of a large number of demobilised soldiers. Secondly, as the key labour market for the military, a nexus of interests developed between the bureaucracy, landed notables and the army. According Tan Tai Yong the foundations were therefore already in place for a civil-military alliance to take control of the state apparatus at the time of Pakistan's birth.

Thanks, insightful as always!

Could you also comment on the dynamics between the Pashtuns of the trans-Indus districts (later NWFP) and the Raj in that period (post-1857 to pre-1947) vis-a-vis military recruitment, especially considering the British-Afghan conflict and insurgencies in Waziristan and elsewhere in the tribal belt?

 

[rahulrulezz]

sure. i remember finding the records and being a bit sad that he had died in action, however later research made me realise being a Japanese pow was literal horror, so in some ways it wasn't as bad as when i initially found out. the lesser of two evils if you will.

his war record has his battalion, regiment, and date of death, and this in of itself can be fairly useful, however when i searched these records i found that the actual battle he was involved in is fairly extensively covered, it was known as operation krohcol.

in a nutshell it was britains response to the japanese invasion of thailand, the timing of which had taken the brits by surprise a few days earlier. however after crossing the frontier, for some reason command decided to not take a strategically important ridge (which was the initial objective) but wait for the morning, further delays meant they didn't get close until mid-day the next day where they were ambushed by the waiting japanese.

the majority of my grandfathers regiment perished, it was the first day of the counter offensive into japanese thailand which ultimately failed, and thailand allied itself to japan until the end of the war.

the elders didnt think much of it, since as [MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] mentions it was a fairly common. however when the reality of what had happened dawned on my great grand mother it pretty much broke her heart, apparently she spent her time, day in day out, sitting on a "charpai" looking at the gate waiting for her son to come home until she hunched over and lost her sight. as they say its usually the mothers who lose most in war.

Oh man. Thank you for sharing this. I went through the Operation Krohcol in details and reading about the operation, it felt as if I was walking very close to your grand father.

Hearing about your great great grand mother makes me so sad.

Thank you again for sharing this personal experience.

 

[Nostalgic]

agree with most of this, rajputs still buy into the martial race thing, and i am told are vastly over represented in pakistani armed forces officer class. someone told me more than half of nishan-e-haider awardees are rajputs, i havnt confirmed this tbh, my own maternal grandfather ended up in intelligence for pakistan.

Historically, Punjabis, in particular from the plateau, and Pashtuns have been vastly overrepresented in the Pakistani military. I believe they’ve recently been making a concerted effort to be more representative. I heard there are implicit divisional quotas in place now.

The Nishan-e-Haiders were and probably still are a source of pride for Potohar: prior to the two awarded after Kargil, four of the eight awardees were from this region.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Always amazes me how some folk in the UK don't realise that many Asians lost their lives in the Wars.

Why would they? Remembrance is about remembering fallen British troops and that is what tugs at the heart strings of the British people who are honouring their dead. If Asians or Africans want to remember their dead, they can just as easily do so in Asia and Africa. Perhaps they do already, I'm not really aware of it if they do.

 

[Robert]

Why would they? Remembrance is about remembering fallen British troops and that is what tugs at the heart strings of the British people who are honouring their dead. If Asians or Africans want to remember their dead, they can just as easily do so in Asia and Africa. Perhaps they do already, I'm not really aware of it if they do.

Because we should also remember the sacrifice of the Empire troops who fought with the British Tommies.

 

[Robert]

sure. i remember finding the records and being a bit sad that he had died in action, however later research made me realise being a Japanese pow was literal horror, so in some ways it wasn't as bad as when i initially found out. the lesser of two evils if you will.

his war record has his battalion, regiment, and date of death, and this in of itself can be fairly useful, however when i searched these records i found that the actual battle he was involved in is fairly extensively covered, it was known as operation krohcol.

in a nutshell it was britains response to the japanese invasion of thailand, the timing of which had taken the brits by surprise a few days earlier. however after crossing the frontier, for some reason command decided to not take a strategically important ridge (which was the initial objective) but wait for the morning, further delays meant they didn't get close until mid-day the next day where they were ambushed by the waiting japanese.

the majority of my grandfathers regiment perished, it was the first day of the counter offensive into japanese thailand which ultimately failed, and thailand allied itself to japan until the end of the war.

the elders didnt think much of it, since as [MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] mentions it was a fairly common. however when the reality of what had happened dawned on my great grand mother it pretty much broke her heart, apparently she spent her time, day in day out, sitting on a "charpai" looking at the gate waiting for her son to come home until she hunched over and lost her sight. as they say its usually the mothers who lose most in war.

Lions led by donkeys. Singapore was lost in the same way.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Because we should also remember the sacrifice of the Empire troops who fought with the British Tommies.

I grew up my whole life here, I never saw any attempts to connect Remembrance with foreign troops who fought under the British flag. Perhaps we should make the connection, but in reality we don't. I've watched a few war films in my time and only ever seen heroic Brits and Americans on screen. That's probably as good an indicator as any as to who we think was important to remember.

 

[KB]

Thanks, insightful as always!

Could you also comment on the dynamics between the Pashtuns of the trans-Indus districts (later NWFP) and the Raj in that period (post-1857 to pre-1947) vis-a-vis military recruitment, especially considering the British-Afghan conflict and insurgencies in Waziristan and elsewhere in the tribal belt?

This is not something, unfortunately, I know much about. Certainly, Pathans were considered part of the "martial races" and well represented in the Indian army. In 1921 the Frontier represented 0.7% of the total Indian population but in 1929 contributed 3.5% of the troops in the Indian army. Nevertheless, this pales in comparison to the Punjab, where the corresponding figures were 6.5% and 54%!

To fast forward into more recent times, according to Shuja Nawaz recruitment is no longer so restricted to the Salt Range tracts. Comparing figures between 1991 and 2005, he notes that Central Punjab now outpaces Northern Punjab in recruitment flows. Overall the proportion of soldiers from Punjab had declined from 64% in 1991 to 43% in 2005. There was a significant increase in the intake from Sindh (9% to 23%) drawn mainly from the rural areas. Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (or NWFP and FATA as they were known in 2005) showed a modest increase from 21% to 22%.

 

[Technics 1210]

I read this thread with absolute shock and horror.

So much talk about WW2, when Remembrance day was actually a WW1 tradition.

Alas! The brainwashing is strong.

 

[Saj]

Because we should also remember the sacrifice of the Empire troops who fought with the British Tommies.

Exactly. Well said.

 

[irfan]

I read this thread with absolute shock and horror.

So much talk about WW2, when Remembrance day was actually a WW1 tradition.

Alas! The brainwashing is strong.

exactly that's what the poppy represented, but then all WW1 veterans died out so they shifted the attention to WW2 and then to other conflicts as the generation passed away as well.

 

[Robert]

I grew up my whole life here, I never saw any attempts to connect Remembrance with foreign troops who fought under the British flag. Perhaps we should make the connection, but in reality we don't. I've watched a few war films in my time and only ever seen heroic Brits and Americans on screen. That's probably as good an indicator as any as to who we think was important to remember.

Well this year the British Legion put different coloured faces on their appeal media. The Commonwealth representatives are always at the Cenotaph and the Beeb picked Johnson Beharry VC out of the parade.

Often the Gurkhas march and there were plenty of old Caribbean veterans in the march this year.

 

[Robert]

I read this thread with absolute shock and horror.

So much talk about WW2, when Remembrance day was actually a WW1 tradition.

Alas! The brainwashing is strong.

It’s an all-war tradition, as much about Iraq and Afghanistan as WW1. All the Great War veterans are gone. WW2 is passing out of living memory too.

 

[Technics 1210]

It’s an all-war tradition, as much about Iraq and Afghanistan as WW1. All the Great War veterans are gone. WW2 is passing out of living memory too.

I can assure you WW2 will not be out of living memory for centuries to come. As for Iraq and Afghanistan, the government would have the public forget about these 2 wars if it were up to them.

 

[Robert]

I can assure you WW2 will not be out of living memory for centuries to come. As for Iraq and Afghanistan, the government would have the public forget about these 2 wars if it were up to them.

Living memory passes when the last person who saw an event closes their eyes for the last time. After that, history books and files.