"Royal Couple who visited Pakistan had exactly same Presidential security as NZ squad" : Wasim Khan

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"Royal Couple who visited Pakistan had exactly same Presidential security as NZ squad" : Wasim Khan

Wasim Khan speaking today:

At 3am of the first ODI I received a call from the ESI head of security Mr Reg Dickason who is the security consultant for NZC informing me that a report had landed on the NZ Govt desk through their govt security agencies stating that there was a threat on the NZ team and that threat was direct and imminent on that particular day.

I arrived in Lahore later that day for more clarification from Dickason and he stated that information had emanated from 5 eyes and had reached the NZ PM office and that it was serious and that we needed to address immediately.

We then met with local security agencies and intelligence of Pakistan to ascertain if there was any threat. They made it very very clear that as far as they were concerned there was absolutely nothing that they had picked up to suggest any immediate threat to the NZ team.

I then received phone calls from David White of NZC about the report and that the PM of NZ had directed that the NZ squad and support staff return to NZ immediately.

I can categorically tell you that despite our requests the report was deemed to be confidential information which couldn’t be shared with anybody which was hugely disappointing for us considering that this was now threatening the tour. What we would have ideally liked to have done even if that information had gone to our security agencies for some intelligence to be shared and for us to mitigate any potential threats that they deemed possible within that report and try and deal with it collectively so we could keep the tour on.

We have seen in the past places like Bangladesh where attacks have happened but tours have continued based on reports by security experts. As far as we are concerned the security expert for NZ had maintained and continues to maintain that Pakistan is safe in terms of our security protocols that we have in place both from a plan and roll out perspective.

The Royal Couple, Prince William and Kate Middleton who visited Pakistan last year had exactly the same Presidential security as the New Zealand squad. There are 3 elements – the hotel is protected as a fortress so the players are secure, the route to and from the ground was the royal couple and other presidents and prime-ministers who have travelled to Pakistan have received the same level of security and provisions that are set in place for routes that they have to travel. Whilst the NCOC had agreed that 25% of fans would be allowed in, there were 9 checkpoints to get into the ground. Those checkpoints ensured the complete safety of fans even before they arrived. We gave fans notice to expect 2 and a half to 3 hours delay to get into the ground so that everything could be checked out. Everything was in place from our side and those plans and protocols were given a clean bill of health by the security expert who maintains to this day that was exactly what was put in place and as secure as possible.

What happens here when threat levels increase is that embassies and High Commissions change their travel advisory. Considering there was a supposed threat in that report, the countries that were privy to that report have not changed their travel advisories since that report was produced.

Any credible information in that report should have been shared and this is a very dangerous precedent when countries are unilaterally making decisions that can potentially have long-term consequences for countries. We expected some dialogue and discussion between NZ intelligence and our intelligence so at that level they could discuss what type of threat had been perceived so that we could try and mitigate that to ensure the tour continued. Had that information been shared we may have been able to enlighten the NZ government a little bit on what the information on the ground here was and what we could potentially do to mitigate that.

The NZ team had been practising for 3 days and were happy travelling to and from the Pindi stadium and the feedback we were getting from the players was that the security was excellent and there were no complaints there. Everything was running along smoothly as far as we were concerned.

We continue to have foreign visitors from all over the world coming into Pakistan into our beautiful country. They continue to visit and go in the north of Pakistan, into various places to visit the scenic and tourist areas in the North. For us there is despondency and disappointment and also potential ramifications and repercussions long term. We have worked very hard from a journey we started 5 years ago to get to where we are now and over the last 2 and a half to 3 years we have seen Test cricket return in what is probably the busiest season we have ever had in Pakistan cricket history with NZ, England due to arrive and also with West Indies and Australia due to come for the longest period in terms of touring Pakistan.

We continue to have good relationships with the cricket Board but what has to happen at an international level now is that we need to really look at this situation where countries can make a unilateral decision without any discussion with the host nations. This is going to cost us millions of dollars, this has severely affected us from a cricket credibility perspective and has set us back. ECB are meeting today to make a decision on whether they will tour Pakistan or not. We know what the guidance is and we are aware of the fact that from the security perspective there is a clean bill of health and we certainly hope that England will be touring and that will be announced later today. We certainly believe they should be coming and we hope that they will be coming based on what the competent authorities here in Islamabad is saying and what the security expert is saying. The same security expert who provided guidance to the ECB to go to Bangladesh 6 weeks after the bomb blast there which killed 12 people.

They are saying that Five Eyes Alliance had the security information and the report but they didn’t give the detailed information to Reg Dickason as it was deemed highly confidential that could only be shared amongst those 5 countries. Dickason spoke with the security agencies of the 5 countries just to verify that content was in those reports that pertained to a potential threat because they all received the same report and he confirmed to NZC that was the case.

The PM to PM spoke as a last-ditch effort to try and create some dialogue. What we were wanting first and foremost was discussions. Sure don’t share the report with PCB but share it with our intelligence and lets try and see whether we can mitigate any potential issues or challenges because our security had not picked up anything. There’s no issue about us playing NZ, lets also remember that NZ are saying that it was guidelines and guidance provided to them from their Govt. We’ve had a good relation ship with NZC in the past but this has created potential tensions right now due to the way this was done as it was disrespectful in many ways but there certainly wont be any danger of us not fulfilling our obligations at the ICC T20 World Cup.

Our understanding is that from a security perspective the travel advisory is an indicator of threat levels. As it stands at the moment the advisory has not changed. There was no security breach or perceived threat, the threat that was within that report was what we are saying should’ve been shared with our intelligence at that level so that we can try and mitigate it. This sets a very dangerous precedent as if countries can unilaterally abandon tours, then it does affect relationships. Where does it leave us as a sport. If the potential threats cannot be discussed at a high level – government to government level then we have a real problem in cricket. This is something that needs to be discussed amongst the members to ensure that from a very basic courteous and respect level this isn’t allowed to happen.

If there was a threat then surely that threat is also open to the civilians of Pakistan. So are we saying that the lives of the civilians in Pakistan are any less important or that the threat only applies to sportspeople. What we are saying is share that information lets work collectively as a cricket family, lets find a solution and see if we can mitigate because at the moment there is an inequality and that inequality is that in some cases it’s one rule for one and another rule for others and that has to stop. This has hit us very hard, the consequence of this are going to be far-reaching, financially and cricket-wise and the abruptness of how this happened, you can understand the emotions.

There is inequality in cricket. We have done everything that was asked of us, we have shown solidarity in cricket, our players have gone through hardship, 14 days quarantine in New Zealand, we toured after the mosque attack in New Zealand. We have done everything that we possibly could. We expect fair treatment the other way as well. It’s easy to walk out of countries like Pakistan without any reason without dialogue, without any discussion and that has to stop because the inequality has to stop in world cricket and unless we do that we aren’t going to have an even playing field both in treatment and in finances.

We can’t request compensation from ICC as this was a bilateral series. Ramiz Raja and I will be taking this issue up at the ICC level but also NZC and this is something we will be looking to have discussion more broadly over when we sit at the ICC table. We were owed the respect to at least have some dialogue. We all want to see a peaceful world and a harmonious world and a safe world. If we can’t share intelligence outside a circle then it’s going to make it very hard for countries to be able to deal with and mitigate any threats. We have a duty to the fans to play against NZ in the T20 World Cup and our job should be to go out there and win that match.

Ramiz Raja has written to NZC and that is something privately we have taken up with NZC and their Chairman. This will also be picked up with the ICC. The biggest issue we have right now is to stop anything like this being allowed to happen unilaterally. What we can do is for the ICC and us to have a discussion. Once the security agencies are involved the argument is that this gets escalated to government level and then it’s out of our hands as a cricket Board. What we have to try and work out is when reports are generated and are shared with cricket Boards that the Boards are allowed to sit down and discuss what the issues are within the report and work collectively and sort them out. If we didn’t go to NZ after the Bangladesh attack and said sorry we aren’t going what would have been the implications for NZC. The consequences of us not going to England last year what would have been the consequences financially. This is what I mean by inequality and making sure that everyone is on an equal field based not just on financial clout but based on the fact that there’s an equal clout and respect across all the members of ICC and so that we have an equal consistent policy and procedure that is followed when incidents like this occur again and make sure that something like this can’t happen again because if it happens again then it’s going to continue to put those Cricket Boards in perilous positions and we find ourselves in that position today.

We feel a lack of respect as a proud nation of 230 million people who love their cricket and who have sacrificed a lot over the last 12 years to get cricket back and it can be pulled from under our feet in the space of 8-9 hours without any reason, without any discussion or debate or sharing of information, that’s the issue we have. If that information had been shared and a mutual agreement had come to pass without our security agencies that there was a credible threat and we ascertained that and it couldn’t be mitigated then I think that is the stage you mutually agree but at least you’ve explored it and you’ve exhausted the options.

As it stands at the moment, we have no plans to move our home series abroad. It’s taken us a long time to return and we are adamant that we remain safe but we always have to have contingency and backup plans. But as it stands right now there is no conversation about us playing our home series abroad.

We have reached out to both Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and there was a strong willingness to come and play but because it’s such short notice logistically it’s very difficult for them and Bangladesh’s players are dispersed around the country and the Sri Lanka squad are going to Oman soon. So it’s not been possible to put anything in place in this short period of time but it has been explored by our Chairman and is something that has been looked in the last 24 hours.
 
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Wasim Khan speaking today:

At 3am of the first ODI I received a call from the ESI head of security Mr Reg Dickason who is the security consultant for NZC informing me that a report had landed on the NZ Govt desk through their govt security agencies stating that there was a threat on the NZ team and that threat was direct and imminent on that particular day.

I arrived in Lahore later that day for more clarification from Dickason and he stated that information had emanated from 5 eyes and had reached the NZ PM office and that it was serious and that we needed to address immediately.

We then met with local security agencies and intelligence of Pakistan to ascertain if there was any threat. They made it very very clear that as far as they were concerned there was absolutely nothing that they had picked up to suggest any immediate threat to the NZ team.

I then received phone calls from David White of NZC about the report and that the PM of NZ had directed that the NZ squad and support staff return to NZ immediately.

I can categorically tell you that despite our requests the report was deemed to be confidential information which couldn’t be shared with anybody which was hugely disappointing for us considering that this was now threatening the tour. What we would have ideally liked to have done even if that information had gone to our security agencies for some intelligence to be shared and for us to mitigate any potential threats that they deemed possible within that report and try and deal with it collectively so we could keep the tour on.

We have seen in the past places like Bangladesh where attacks have happened but tours have continued based on reports by security experts. As far as we are concerned the security expert for NZ had maintained and continues to maintain that Pakistan is safe in terms of our security protocols that we have in place both from a plan and roll out perspective.

The Royal Couple, Prince William and Kate Middleton who visited Pakistan last year had exactly the same Presidential security as the New Zealand squad. There are 3 elements – the hotel is protected as a fortress so the players are secure, the route to and from the ground was the royal couple and other presidents and prime-ministers who have travelled to Pakistan have received the same level of security and provisions that are set in place for routes that they have to travel. Whilst the NCOC had agreed that 25% of fans would be allowed in, there were 9 checkpoints to get into the ground. Those checkpoints ensured the complete safety of fans even before they arrived. We gave fans notice to expect 2 and a half to 3 hours delay to get into the ground so that everything could be checked out. Everything was in place from our side and those plans and protocols were given a clean bill of health by the NZ security expert.

Totally agree.

Their reluctance to share this evidence is alarming.
 
Yes really odd stuff.

Royal couple visited not too long ago with similar security but, ofcourse their security personnel are not as good as the intelligence of the NZ. Like any other country multiple diplomats of other countries live in Pakistan and go out to eat, to enjoy nature, shopping etc with not even 1/10th of the security that was given to NZ team. Just recently hosted number of armies, journalists and diplomats evacuating from Afg.

No country will give this kind of security (Or over importance) to a sports team in the world and if they are going to jump up and down based upon every intel even after this then what exactly one can say.
 
Yes really odd stuff.

Royal couple visited not too long ago with similar security but, ofcourse their security personnel are not as good as the intelligence of the NZ. Like any other country multiple diplomats of other countries live in Pakistan and go out to eat, to enjoy nature, shopping etc with not even 1/10th of the security that was given to NZ team. Just recently hosted number of armies, journalists and diplomats evacuating from Afg.

No country will give this kind of security (Or over importance) to a sports team in the world and if they are going to jump up and down based upon every intel even after this then what exactly one can say.

I just hope that England make all the necessary considerations before making their decision.
 
The PCB is being very soft, they should have made the stance clear. NZCB needs to be tried, legally sued for damages or be asked to make the intelligence public and to prove its authenticity
 
No doubt about it, I don't mind if they have to evacuate because they are in danger, but not providing the details is a shameful way to handle things. Basically destroyed cricket in our nation for another decade minimum and provided no details of the threat.
 
More quotes added.

More to come.
 
What is Reg Dickasons background?

This guy is onto a real money earner with his security analysis business. He seems to be well respected by the English.
 
100% agree with everything that's been said.

It's exactly what I and many others have been repeating. It's a complete joke what NZ did and it reeks of unprofessionalism.

I have a strong feeling NZ was let down by its security officials in Pakistan and is now pretending that's how they were supposed to handle things. They simply don't have appropriate diplomatic training and didn't manage the situation wisely or tactfully.

You can get the same result (i.e. leaving) while keeping the other side in confidence and protecting Pakistanis too.
 
These Kiwis seem very feminine. Sorry to say.

If you are still scared after getting this type of security, I have to call you a bunch of sissies.
 
The Royal Couple did not receive any threats. If the MI6 or any other British intelligence were alerted, the couple would have fled Pakistan quicker than the New Zealand team.

This is not about whether Pakistan provided adequate security or not; this is about New Zealand getting alerted of a potential terrorist act.

They did what they had to do to protect themselves. The moaning and groaning of PCB, Pakistani media and Pakistani supporters mean absolutely nothing.
 
Just because every threat isn’t made public doesn’t mean threats aren’t being received. I’m sure the royal couple also received death threats, difference is they didn’t flee the country as they trusted the security which was being provided.
 
The Royal Couple did not receive any threats. If the MI6 or any other British intelligence were alerted, the couple would have fled Pakistan quicker than the New Zealand team.

This is not about whether Pakistan provided adequate security or not; this is about New Zealand getting alerted of a potential terrorist act.

They did what they had to do to protect themselves. The moaning and groaning of PCB, Pakistani media and Pakistani supporters mean absolutely nothing.

My only question is what made the threat that NZ allegedly received “credible”. It does not take much to send empty threats online nowadays for instance. What do you think might have happened?
 
Full quotes from today's press conference added.
 
The problem with sharing intelligence is that it can reveal the source.

Then how are we to justify the credibility of this evidence?

Do you see the loophole we eventually get stuck in?
 
My only question is what made the threat that NZ allegedly received “credible”. It does not take much to send empty threats online nowadays for instance. What do you think might have happened?

The issue is that given Pakistan’s history, image, complete lack of credibility and even its present (blatantly supporting a terrorist organization like Taliban), teams will always be vary.

Even if the get a passive rumor and there is only a 0.1% chance of an act of terrorism, teams will always fear the worst when it comes to Pakistan and will never give us the benefit of doubt.

This is something PCB, Pakistani and Pakistani fans must acknowledge and accept - it is actually very easy to scare off teams when they are in Pakistan.

Even an anonymous prank call can create an emergency situation among the visiting team’s camp.

We don’t know whether New Zealand received genuine intel or if they panicked based on a rumor. We will probably never know. However, they did what they had to do to protect their players from any potential harm. It is always better to be safe than sorry.

Pakistan needs to get over this entitled attitude. We need to stop pretending that the cricketing world is obliged to help us out and tour Pakistan.

No one knows Pakistan anything. They are well within their rights to decide what is best for them even if it means never touring Pakistan again.

After all, Pakistani is responsible for the situation that it finds itself in. This situation is entirely self-inflicted and is a consequence of Pakistan’s foreign and domestic policies. You reap what you sow.
 
Then how are we to justify the credibility of this evidence?

Do you see the loophole we eventually get stuck in?

Think of the situation of Shakil Afridi. He is rotting in prison because it was revealed that he helped Western intelligence agencies.

Sources will not be willing to provide information if they feel their identity cannot be kept secret. The intelligence agencies are interested in getting the best information for which they want to assure their sources that their identity will not be revealed. Justifying their credibility to others is a secondary consideration.
 
The issue is that given Pakistan’s history, image, complete lack of credibility and even its present (blatantly supporting a terrorist organization like Taliban), teams will always be vary.

Even if the get a passive rumor and there is only a 0.1% chance of an act of terrorism, teams will always fear the worst when it comes to Pakistan and will never give us the benefit of doubt.

This is something PCB, Pakistani and Pakistani fans must acknowledge and accept - it is actually very easy to scare off teams when they are in Pakistan.

Even an anonymous prank call can create an emergency situation among the visiting team’s camp.

We don’t know whether New Zealand received genuine intel or if they panicked based on a rumor. We will probably never know. However, they did what they had to do to protect their players from any potential harm. It is always better to be safe than sorry.

Pakistan needs to get over this entitled attitude. We need to stop pretending that the cricketing world is obliged to help us out and tour Pakistan.

No one knows Pakistan anything. They are well within their rights to decide what is best for them even if it means never touring Pakistan again.

After all, Pakistani is responsible for the situation that it finds itself in. This situation is entirely self-inflicted and is a consequence of Pakistan’s foreign and domestic policies. You reap what you sow.

You have ZERO clue about any foreign policy. Stop blaming Pakistan and look around at your history books. Perhaps, you can learn a fact or two to understand why Pakistan is the way it is.
 
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People are overlooking the security arrangements inplace. One of the world most powerful military were involved in ensuring all ends were covered. The country prime minister was also briefed in the task.

Pakistan are well within their right to question the hastiness shown by NZ.
 
The issue is that given Pakistan’s history, image, complete lack of credibility and even its present (blatantly supporting a terrorist organization like Taliban), teams will always be vary.

Even if the get a passive rumor and there is only a 0.1% chance of an act of terrorism, teams will always fear the worst when it comes to Pakistan and will never give us the benefit of doubt.

This is something PCB, Pakistani and Pakistani fans must acknowledge and accept - it is actually very easy to scare off teams when they are in Pakistan.

Even an anonymous prank call can create an emergency situation among the visiting team’s camp.

We don’t know whether New Zealand received genuine intel or if they panicked based on a rumor. We will probably never know. However, they did what they had to do to protect their players from any potential harm. It is always better to be safe than sorry.

Pakistan needs to get over this entitled attitude. We need to stop pretending that the cricketing world is obliged to help us out and tour Pakistan.

No one knows Pakistan anything. They are well within their rights to decide what is best for them even if it means never touring Pakistan again.

After all, Pakistani is responsible for the situation that it finds itself in. This situation is entirely self-inflicted and is a consequence of Pakistan’s foreign and domestic policies. You reap what you sow.

The last para is a harsh reality.
 
Think of the situation of Shakil Afridi. He is rotting in prison because it was revealed that he helped Western intelligence agencies.

Sources will not be willing to provide information if they feel their identity cannot be kept secret. The intelligence agencies are interested in getting the best information for which they want to assure their sources that their identity will not be revealed. Justifying their credibility to others is a secondary consideration.

True, but then again, this sets a dangerous precedent.

Intelligence agencies being involved in sports is quite alarming, but then again, cricket boards are going to follow what their governments tell them.

We can hope that no other team should have to experience what Pakistan did, but in truth, teams have.

South Africa made losses when England and Australia doubted their capability of providing isolation from the COVID-19 cases. South Africa to this day believes in their quarantine measures, but England and Australia don't. So is South Africa wrong for believing in the infrastructure they set aside for the series, which was deemed sufficient by the panel that visited?

Like I said, some very twisted stuff is going to start happening.

Expect this WT20 to be heavily politicized.
 
Plenty of valid points by Wasim Khan especially regarding just packing your bags and leaving without sharing the security evidence.

Good point also about if there was a security threat then is that just for NZ cricketers and nobody else.

And also no travel restrictions have been put to Pakistan by any of the Five Eyes countries - Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States.
 
This was a hoax call if there was ever one.

Which is why the PCB needs to come down hard on the NZCB demanding full compensation with interest. The Pakistani govt should come down with full force against the NZ govt.
 
Think of the situation of Shakil Afridi. He is rotting in prison because it was revealed that he helped Western intelligence agencies.

Sources will not be willing to provide information if they feel their identity cannot be kept secret. The intelligence agencies are interested in getting the best information for which they want to assure their sources that their identity will not be revealed. Justifying their credibility to others is a secondary consideration.

Intelligence is shared all the time even with enemies. Pakistan and 5 eyes have done a ton of intelligence sharing. The source does not need to be revealed. Just what the intelligence was. They were providing intelligence to the Taliban just a few weeks back.

The intelligence in this case isn't sensitive like the OBL, we are talking about a cricket team here. The interests of both parties are not diverging in this case.

If they cannot provide the intelligence in this case then it's safe to assume either the intelligence is bad, or it implicates third countries such as India whom they don't want implicated.
 
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Excellent detailed statement which covers all the bases. I like his thought process, and I hope he and Ramiz follow through the way they say they will.
 
New Zealand must be forced to reveal the intelligence that is the least they can do is share where the threat was , perplexing why they cannot share this with the relevant authority in pakistan .
 
What has a visit last year by different people got to do with the price of fish?

The Pakistan v New Zealand tour as I understand it was cancelled on 17 September 2021 due to a threat being detected on 17 September 2021 regarding an attack on the New Zealand team to take place on 17 September 2021.

So what has a royal visit a year earlier got to do with anything?
 
This is not a war, just a game of cricket. No matter how much security is provided a player or a team can decide whether they want to play or not. The game isn't worth taking such risks. We don't know if it was a hoax or not but you cannot blame someone for being safe than sorry. Yes it is difficult times for Pakistan and it is sad that the series got cancelled but you cannot blame the players or the team.
 
What has a visit last year by different people got to do with the price of fish?

The Pakistan v New Zealand tour as I understand it was cancelled on 17 September 2021 due to a threat being detected on 17 September 2021 regarding an attack on the New Zealand team to take place on 17 September 2021.

So what has a royal visit a year earlier got to do with anything?

Lets break this down

1. Do you actually believe that the NZ cricket squad are bigger targets than the Royals? and do you feel that there was no threat to their lives when they toured Pakistan?

2. Do you think that the same security provided to the Royal Couple which saw them carry out their tour of Pakistan without a problem would have not been enough for the NZ squad?
 
What has a visit last year by different people got to do with the price of fish?

The Pakistan v New Zealand tour as I understand it was cancelled on 17 September 2021 due to a threat being detected on 17 September 2021 regarding an attack on the New Zealand team to take place on 17 September 2021.

So what has a royal visit a year earlier got to do with anything?

Wasim is perfectly within his rights to mention this, as long as people like you mention the Sri Lanka attacks.

His response shoots down the first two points in your other thread.

1. Clearly the British government at that point in time gave consideration and respect to Pakistan's capability to offer foolproof security. Despite people like you claiming that it has dented Pakistan's image for a generation ( however long that is). If the Royal Visit (one year ago) is not relevant then the Sri Lanka attack should not be either. Ten years have elapsed since then, there is a new regime in charge, terrorism has subsided significantly and the threat from the Afghan border has diminished. The country should no longer be judged on it.

2. You claim in your other thread that nobody gives the slightest consideration to Pakistans intelligence-gathering agencies - Yet they were deemed competent enough to provide security to arguably two of the most important people in the western world. Since the fall of Kabul have aided Britain in ensuring the same passage of service personnel & people looking to flee.

Wasims statement is spot on.
 
Lets break this down

1. Do you actually believe that the NZ cricket squad are bigger targets than the Royals? and do you feel that there was no threat to their lives when they toured Pakistan?

2. Do you think that the same security provided to the Royal Couple which saw them carry out their tour of Pakistan without a problem would have not been enough for the NZ squad?
You're asking the wrong question, with all due respect.

1. There was no identified threat against the Royal Couple, so the level of security was irrelevant.
2. Once there is an identified specific threat against a specific target, no level of security justifies taking the risk of remaining present. You remove the target from the area.
 
You're asking the wrong question, with all due respect.

1. There was no identified threat against the Royal Couple, so the level of security was irrelevant.
2. Once there is an identified specific threat against a specific target, no level of security justifies taking the risk of remaining present. You remove the target from the area.

You remove the threat?
 
You're asking the wrong question, with all due respect.

1. There was no identified threat against the Royal Couple, so the level of security was irrelevant.
2. Once there is an identified specific threat against a specific target, no level of security justifies taking the risk of remaining present. You remove the target from the area.

In response to 1:

The level of security provided was relevant because otherwise they would not have been comfortable touring at all. Reason being, if a threat did emerge and they were not able to 'remove themselves from the area' then they would have been subject to that threat - a risk they would not take if they believed the security was inadequate.

In response to 2:

This comes down to how credible the threat against NZ team was. As you said, it should be a specific threat against a specific target. How specific was it? Or was it just in response to the overall situation across the Western border? Even if they had a credible threat, what a lot of people are trying to say is NZC should have informed PCB and announced the decision to call off the tour sensibly rather than hanging the PCB and PCT out to dry 30 minutes before the toss (I doubt PCB was holding guns to their heads telling them to play, if they so wanted to leave they would have been allowed to leave). The whole thing could have been worked out a lot better.
 
You remove the threat?

The ISI failed to even detect the threat.

How are you going to persuade Cricket New Zealand that you have taken out the threat if you are still trying to tell them that their intelligence is wrong and there is no threat?

That's why I think that it was always going to be impossible to salvage the tour from the second the NZ government warned NZ Cricket of the imminent threat. I don't think that either the PCB or government of Pakistan had any chance to save the tour.

That's the point at which you need somewhere overseas on standby - and for economic and cricketing reasons I would have moved the series to Durban.
 
You're asking the wrong question, with all due respect.

1. There was no identified threat against the Royal Couple, so the level of security was irrelevant.
2. Once there is an identified specific threat against a specific target, no level of security justifies taking the risk of remaining present. You remove the target from the area.


The question is of terrorism threat levels in Pakistan, not a specific target.

Don't forget NZ were cleared to tour by their security officials etc. Yet according to your logic ECB should continue the tour because no specific threat had been made agasint the England team. Wonderful.
 
In response to 2:

This comes down to how credible the threat against NZ team was. As you said, it should be a specific threat against a specific target. How specific was it? Or was it just in response to the overall situation across the Western border? Even if they had a credible threat, what a lot of people are trying to say is NZC should have informed PCB and announced the decision to call off the tour sensibly rather than hanging the PCB and PCT out to dry 30 minutes before the toss (I doubt PCB was holding guns to their heads telling them to play, if they so wanted to leave they would have been allowed to leave). The whole thing could have been worked out a lot better.

It's unrealistic to expect a foreign intelligence agency to tell their own team what the specific threat is, let alone a foreign government that they don't trust.

Many of the complaints are around the fact that nobody shared the specific intelligence with the PCB or ISI or government of Pakistan. But there was never even a 1% chance that that would happen.
 
The Royal couple wouldn't have toured Pakistan post 2009-13 given the terrorist threat levels back then, regardless of specific security threats, yet the British secret service, Royal branch, cleared the Royal tour last year simply because the terrorist threat levels in Pakistan have subsided drastically rendering Pakistan to be a safer country than it was about 10 years ago.

Make no mistake, the Royal couple are far more important to the British establishment than a bunch of cricketers, so if Pakistan is secure and safe for the the future King and Queen of Britain according to British intelligence then it's safe for other foriegn guests. This is the point Wasim is making, and he's hit the nail on the head.
 
The ISI failed to even detect the threat.

How are you going to persuade Cricket New Zealand that you have taken out the threat if you are still trying to tell them that their intelligence is wrong and there is no threat?

That's why I think that it was always going to be impossible to salvage the tour from the second the NZ government warned NZ Cricket of the imminent threat. I don't think that either the PCB or government of Pakistan had any chance to save the tour.

That's the point at which you need somewhere overseas on standby - and for economic and cricketing reasons I would have moved the series to Durban.

There was no threat. ISI can’t detect a threat if there wasn’t any. Tell me something to prove otherwise instead of the word of the white man.
 
There was no threat. ISI can’t detect a threat if there wasn’t any. Tell me something to prove otherwise instead of the word of the white man.

NZCB should be told to prove that there was a threat, it's authenticity or to pay compensation with interest to the PCB
 
There was no threat. ISI can’t detect a threat if there wasn’t any. Tell me something to prove otherwise instead of the word of the white man.

"White man"?

Have you been to New Zealand?

60% white NZ born
17% Maori
12% Oriental
8% Pacific Islander
6% Indian (Fiji Indian mainly)

It is not a "white" country by any means. Not even close.

Around 40% of Kiwis are demonstrably "non-white", compared with 9% of Australians and 13.5% of British people.
 
Pedantry and stats aren't going to help the feeble cause here, unless you really want to get pedantic about it, all NZ officials involved are indeed white.

It is clear by 'white man' the reference is to a member of the 5 Eyes, 5 Anglo Saxon nations,

A reminder to what's really white, as Winston Churchill said - 'Neither the sure prevention of war, nor the continuous rise of world organisation will be gained without what I have called the fraternal association of the English-speaking peoples.

Most of you have only heard of 5 eyes of late, the organisation was incepted during WW2 and only nations that were governed by whites, under the British Empire, and English speaking were allowed to be members as instructed by Winston Churchill. White and racist. Who'd have though it.

Yes, this is also why there can only ever be 5 members of the FVEY (5 eyes).

:)
 
"White man"?

Have you been to New Zealand?

60% white NZ born
17% Maori
12% Oriental
8% Pacific Islander
6% Indian (Fiji Indian mainly)

It is not a "white" country by any means. Not even close.

Around 40% of Kiwis are demonstrably "non-white", compared with 9% of Australians and 13.5% of British people.

Your just sounding like a sepoy here mate. Are you now going to tell everyone here that New Zealand is a mixed race nation and whites should not be the predominant race when we perceive of the them?
 
Your just sounding like a sepoy here mate. Are you now going to tell everyone here that New Zealand is a mixed race nation and whites should not be the predominant race when we perceive of the them?

Secondly, the threat detected wasn’t by NZ themselves but another one of their 4 Anglophone brothers. Are they also not white the way you have just pointed out? Since when did you become an apologist to white supremacy?
 
Your just sounding like a sepoy here mate. Are you now going to tell everyone here that New Zealand is a mixed race nation and whites should not be the predominant race when we perceive of the them?

No, I’m saying that New Zealand is a bicultural society based upon the Treaty of Waitangi, in which the Maori people are the owners of the country and the country is administered on a binational basis between Maori and Pakeha.

That’s the deal I signed up to when I was lucky enough to emigrate to New Zealand. I certainly enjoyed no special status by being British, and rightly so.
 
The ISI failed to even detect the threat.

The 5eyes failed to anticipate Taliban's lightening take over of the country with minimal bloodshed. They failed to detect Kabul airport bombing that killed over 200 afghans. They then proceeded to drone an innocent family killing 10 innocent civilians including 7 children while labeling them as ISIS terrorists. So their recent track record of "intelligence" or lack thereof has been awfully suspect. On the flip side they asked Pakistan to assist in evacuation. Hundreds of foreign nationals and thousands of afghans have been evacuated via Pakistan without any issues. I guess Pakistan was safe for that.
 
The issue is that given Pakistan’s history, image, complete lack of credibility and even its present (blatantly supporting a terrorist organization like Taliban), teams will always be vary.

Even if the get a passive rumor and there is only a 0.1% chance of an act of terrorism, teams will always fear the worst when it comes to Pakistan and will never give us the benefit of doubt.

This is something PCB, Pakistani and Pakistani fans must acknowledge and accept - it is actually very easy to scare off teams when they are in Pakistan.

Even an anonymous prank call can create an emergency situation among the visiting team’s camp.

We don’t know whether New Zealand received genuine intel or if they panicked based on a rumor. We will probably never know. However, they did what they had to do to protect their players from any potential harm. It is always better to be safe than sorry.

Pakistan needs to get over this entitled attitude. We need to stop pretending that the cricketing world is obliged to help us out and tour Pakistan.

No one knows Pakistan anything. They are well within their rights to decide what is best for them even if it means never touring Pakistan again.

After all, Pakistani is responsible for the situation that it finds itself in. This situation is entirely self-inflicted and is a consequence of Pakistan’s foreign and domestic policies. You reap what you sow.

So what you called US. Without any proper evidence they invaded Iraq and killed millions of civilians.
 
The ISI failed to even detect the threat.

How are you going to persuade Cricket New Zealand that you have taken out the threat if you are still trying to tell them that their intelligence is wrong and there is no threat?

That's why I think that it was always going to be impossible to salvage the tour from the second the NZ government warned NZ Cricket of the imminent threat. I don't think that either the PCB or government of Pakistan had any chance to save the tour.

That's the point at which you need somewhere overseas on standby - and for economic and cricketing reasons I would have moved the series to Durban.

Curious how NZL Intelligence failed to detect the Christchurch terrorist amassing a massive arsenal under their noses. Subscribe to an extreme hateful agenda and then go on a rampage for an hour across 2 mosques before being apprehended? What are you thoughts on that?
 
The Royal Couple did not receive any threats. If the MI6 or any other British intelligence were alerted, the couple would have fled Pakistan quicker than the New Zealand team.

This is not about whether Pakistan provided adequate security or not; this is about New Zealand getting alerted of a potential terrorist act.

They did what they had to do to protect themselves. The moaning and groaning of PCB, Pakistani media and Pakistani supporters mean absolutely nothing.


How do you know the Royal Couple did not receive any threats?

It is all about how they evaluate, investigate the credibility of the threat, evacuation happens after a few findings, dialogues and discussions from both sides which leads to the alerted threat was made credible


If unilateral decisions as such are taken then that leaves the hosts lives in turmoil which is the highlight here.
If known about a potential threat , then not only evacuation is a responsible option there are many things add to it as well.

Adequate security is provided to tackle and mitigate such threats , they must have demonstrated all such protection to the security assessment team that arrives months and years ago even during an unforeseen event what will be the reaction of the deployed security personnel to safeguard the players , staffs and the entire touring team to ensure they are saved and flown back to their country without even hurting their little finger.

Dialogues, discussions and information sharing could have helped here in a long way as Wasim emphasised.
 
You're asking the wrong question, with all due respect.

1. There was no identified threat against the Royal Couple, so the level of security was irrelevant.
2. Once there is an identified specific threat against a specific target, no level of security justifies taking the risk of remaining present. You remove the target from the area.

I quite agree.

The only thing is, if the target was accidentally hurt during his moving process because of the unilateral decision you took to escort the target from the area, the blame would have gone to the security agencies of Pakistan for being unable to provide adequate security.

How do you expect the host nation to provide the best possible secuity for their removal if the threat was deemed as big as to cause evacuation?
 
US army was still in Afghanistan and the pvt contractors were making billions when the Royal couple visited.

Now, there is bitter resentment against Pakistan by a few to take out their guilt, frustration and humiliation faced at Afghanistan exit.

The situation between now n then has drastically changed. We may have the same security but a lot bitter and stubborn foes now.
 
How do you know the Royal Couple did not receive any threats?

It is all about how they evaluate, investigate the credibility of the threat, evacuation happens after a few findings, dialogues and discussions from both sides which leads to the alerted threat was made credible


If unilateral decisions as such are taken then that leaves the hosts lives in turmoil which is the highlight here.
If known about a potential threat , then not only evacuation is a responsible option there are many things add to it as well.

Adequate security is provided to tackle and mitigate such threats , they must have demonstrated all such protection to the security assessment team that arrives months and years ago even during an unforeseen event what will be the reaction of the deployed security personnel to safeguard the players , staffs and the entire touring team to ensure they are saved and flown back to their country without even hurting their little finger.

Dialogues, discussions and information sharing could have helped here in a long way as Wasim emphasised.

If the Royal Couple received any threats and if British intelligence picked up any leads, their visit would have been called off.

They are not stupid and crazy - they were not going to risk their lives. A visit to Pakistan is not that important.

The issue is that Pakistanis are desperate to assume that the Royal Couple also received threats but for some reason, they did not flee the country like New Zealand because they had faith in Pakistan’s security.

I did not know the Royal Family are such patriotic Pakistanis and wanted to risk their lives for Pakistan’s image.

Here is the reality - Pakistan has zero credibility and no one has any faith in Pakistan’s capability to provide fool-proof security.

If a touring team receives a threat, they will not put their faith in Pakistan’s security because of the lapse that happened in 2009.

Some mistakes are too big to forgive and forget. The Sri Lankan attack will never be forgotten and it has ensured that Pakistan will never have any credibility ever again.

The only thing that has changed between now and then is that the overall security situation has improved. As a result, Pakistan is now viewed as safe to tour unless they receive intel about some potential attack.

We need to accept the reality - we will never get the benefit of doubt and teams will always adopt the “better safe than sorry” approach when it comes to playing Pakistan.

There is also something else that we need to accept. No one owes us anything. It is not the responsibility of the cricket world to help terror international cricket in Pakistan. No one is morally or ethically or legally obliged to tour Pakistan.

We are in this position because of our own failures and our own mistakes. As a result, we need to stop our rona dhona and stop throwing tantrums because our attitude over the last couple of days is going to cause long-term damage.
 
You have ZERO clue about any foreign policy. Stop blaming Pakistan and look at your history books. Perhaps, you can learn a fact or two to understand why Pakistan is the way it is.

With all due and undue respect, you are delusional and a victim of mass propaganda that has fooled millions of Pakistanis.

I mean, you are the poster who started a thread to ask for proof for the fact that the military runs the show in Pakistan.

I mean when your head is buried so deep, there is no getting it out.

We all know what Pakistan’s foreign policy has been and what role it has played in geopolitics and what it’s intentions has always been.

I can tell you why Pakistan is like this and what its motives are, but you will not like my answer and it is beyond the scope of this thread.
 
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No, I’m saying that New Zealand is a bicultural society based upon the Treaty of Waitangi, in which the Maori people are the owners of the country and the country is administered on a binational basis between Maori and Pakeha.

That’s the deal I signed up to when I was lucky enough to emigrate to New Zealand. I certainly enjoyed no special status by being British, and rightly so.

So the Maori and Pakeha are the ones making the tough decisions on Intel? Or are they just sitting out enjoying native status whilst the whites are running the country?? Tell me who to blame here!
 
'Security provided to NZ in Pakistan outnumbered their forces'

Commenting on the New Zealand cricket team's recent decision to abandon its Pakistan tour minutes before the first match was scheduled to begin, the minister said that it was rich of the opposition to blame the government.

"Don't throw stones at Sheikh Rashid of the Ministry of Interior while living in a glass house," he said, adding that the cabinet had provided the New Zealand team with security by the Pakistan Army.

"They don't have as many [people in their] forces as the number we provided for their security," he said, adding that it was the government's "responsibility" to do so.

He said that other teams had visited Pakistan in the past without any issues. He also called on the nation to not be disappointed, stating that the day will come when international teams will want to play in Pakistan.

The minister also questioned the "Five Eyes" alliance", asking "where were the security experts when the New Zealand team was practicing here for three days".

He reiterated that Pakistan's security forces were among the world's strongest agencies, saying there was no threat alert that prompted the Kiwis to abandon the tour at the last minute.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1647418/g...ntain-normalcy-in-islamabad-interior-minister
 
I think whatever now is happening is beyond PCB

Once they have involved PM to PM discussion by escalating it, then its over
 
With all due and undue respect, you are delusional and a victim of mass propaganda that has fooled millions of Pakistanis.

I mean, you are the poster who started a thread to ask for proof for the fact that the military runs the show in Pakistan.

I mean when your head is buried so deep, there is no getting it out.

We all know what Pakistan’s foreign policy has been and what role it has played in geopolitics and what it’s intentions has always been.

I can tell you why Pakistan is like this and what its motives are, but you will not like my answer and it is beyond the scope of this thread.

I started that thread because I wanted posters to back their claims up with evidence, which was part of the title of the thread. You were adamant that they did and others were adamant that they did not. And mind you, that post was 1-2 years ago.

You began to post frequently on the subject after the ousting of NS and subsequent victory of IK. I know the history behind the foreign policy but I don’t like to pretend that everything should be ignored when analyzing it and assuming that everything that went wrong would have gone right had it been otherwise.

I could go on and on about the subject but you would never change your mind.
 
Conditions have changed after US has been kicked out of Afg. Now, they have to rely on their sources for intel. These sources don't probably report to ISI. Revealing the nature of the threat would probably expose the source.
 
So much side stepping by haters of Pakistan.

They know deep down if Pakistan is good enough for the future King and Queen of Britain, it's good enough for anyone, including the allegded Pakistanis, and kattar Indians, who want to bail for England.
 
I think maybe PCB needs to come up with a security level that is above Royalty !
 
I think maybe PCB needs to come up with a security level that is above Royalty !

I may get flak for this but the way i see it imran khan should try to improve relations with India .
If he by any Miraculous way does get successful in this then western countries will automatically start coming.
 
I may get flak for this but the way i see it imran khan should try to improve relations with India .
If he by any Miraculous way does get successful in this then western countries will automatically start coming.

Maybe Modi should try and improve relations with Pakistan.
 
I may get flak for this but the way i see it imran khan should try to improve relations with India .
If he by any Miraculous way does get successful in this then western countries will automatically start coming.

It’s not possible on both sides atm.
 
Conditions have changed after US has been kicked out of Afg. Now, they have to rely on their sources for intel. These sources don't probably report to ISI. Revealing the nature of the threat would probably expose the source.

There was no threat, it was a stupid hoax

And in any case western intelligence has been wrong many times just like the recent drone bombing of a car that killed innocent civilians when they claimed it was ISIS terrorists.

The reason why NZ won’t share the alleged info is because they will have egg on their faces now they realised the info was bogus. They panicked at the last minute.
 
Once things cool down and some time has passed, it will likely be revealed or leaked that NZ ran away based on a hoax or a very low percentage likelihood threat. And this will come from NZ, not Pakistan.
 
I may get flak for this but the way i see it imran khan should try to improve relations with India .
If he by any Miraculous way does get successful in this then western countries will automatically start coming.

Haha and any bright ideas how he should do that?

Hes tried many times to put differences behind only to be rebuffed by a fascist govt n leader

Imran wont be trying again Modi knows where Imran is when he wants to speak to him
 
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