"Salman Butt is playing really well - everyone deserves another go" : Waqar Younis

[Abdullah719]

Butt was Pakistan captain when he was involved in the spot-fixing incidents for which he was jailed and banned from cricket.

Former Pakistan captain Salman Butt should be recalled to the national team having served a five-year ban for spot-fixing, says ex-coach Waqar Younis.

Batsman Butt, 32, was banned along with Mohammad Amir and Mohammad Asif after spot-fixing incidents during a Lord’s Test against England in August 2010.

Amir, 24, is back in the Test team but Asif, 33, and Butt are yet to return.

“He has served his sentence and everyone maybe deserves another go in life,” Waqar told BT Sport.

Amir, Asif and Butt were jailed for their parts in the incident in 2010, which saw Amir and Asif deliberately bowl no-balls as part of a betting scam.

Former pace bowler Waqar, 45, was Pakistan coach at the time – and ended his second spell in the role in April after his side’s group-stage exit at the World Twenty20.

He says he was “in favour” of left-hander Butt, who returned to domestic cricket in January and made two centuries in a first-class final earlier in December.

“He was playing really well and also he has served his sentence and punishment and I feel personally that everyone deserves a go,” added Waqar.

“People are going to have different views. He is a good player, he is playing really well.”

http://www.sportal.co.in/cricket/pakistan-should-recall-butt-says-ex-coach-waqar/

 

[Sherlock]

No!

Give someone else a chance, and I say the same for Asif too.

I really don't want either of them back in the side again. Their influence is far bigger than some may think.

 

[Markhor]

Rather forgiving of Waqar - his own captain stabbed him in the back and took down two of his star pacers with him, nearly destroying his first tenure as coach but he's A-OK with seeing Butt return.

 

[90MPH]

Salman was never a decent Test opener".

Why does he derverve a go, again ??

He was only a good one day batsman, and I will say good because we had so many crap openers during that time.

I'm not convinced at all. However if he's knocking on the door and keeps scoring then he will probably get selected.

 

[lahoriyah1234]

As i said earlier i dont mind Asif he can serve us in bowling department. But For Salman he should retire now and just play domestic to make a living. Playing for Pakistan should never happen, he was the captain of the team.. The captain of the team...

 

[Black Zero]

Of course the sports body has no objection so I do not see any reason for pcb to block salman's selection.
Posters who are against his selection need elementary course about justice and fairness.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Don't need Butt right now since Sami and Azhar is a decent combination at the top of the order.

 

[Major]

Wow this is coming from a guy who was stabbed in the back by his teams captain and with it took 2 more bowlers with him and destroyed the work he had done with the team.

Either waqar doesnt have self respect or just doesnt think right.

 

[Markhor]

Wow this is coming from a guy who was stabbed in the back by his teams captain and with it took 2 more bowlers with him and destroyed the work he had done with the team.

Either waqar doesnt have self respect or just doesnt think right.

Indeed. And Waqar then goes around talking about importance of discipline !

 

[Boi]

Forget justice or fairness. It doesn't even make sense to go back to Butt when there is so much promise in the likes of Imam, Fakhar and Sami. What has he done to deserve a spot before them three? The pairing of Sami and Azhar is fine for now and even if one needs dropping there are more sensible and sustainable options then going back to Butt.

 

[Aviator]

He averages 30 in tests.. He was nothing special.. He doesn't deserve it even on merit.. This guy should never ever represent pakistan again.

 

[Speedster777]

Well said. He should be back in the team he has earned his place.

 

[Speedster777]

Just watched Salman Butt's interview on a tv channel. Very insightful and impressive. It's a shame he wasted his brain on that meaningless spot fixing. He would have been our captain for decade atleast if he were playing.

 

[Mamoon]

It is almost certain that he will make a comeback in 2017. Slowly but surely, he has finally managed to get support from all quarters. PCB will not be able to resist for long.

 

[Zaz]

Sorry We have better prospects than a 32 yr old who avged what 30 with the bat

Thats not even bringing up the utter shame and embarrasment he caused 6 years ago and the fact he took with him 2 of our best bowlers ever No never

 

[Saj]

He's done his time.

If he continues to perform in domestic cricket then the selectors are going to have to pick him for the national team, irrespective of what some current and former players of other countries think.

 

[Haroon786]

Sorry We have better prospects than a 32 yr old who avged what 30 with the bat

Thats not even bringing up the utter shame and embarrasment he caused 6 years ago and the fact he took with him 2 of our best bowlers ever No never

This.

Even someone like Shezhad who is mediocre himself is a much better option than this individual.

 

[Haz95]

Salman Butt is a notch below Azhar and Sami as batsman. It would be foolish for the Pakistanis to drop them for the mediocrity called Butt, regardless of how he's performing.

 

[msb314]

I would rather have Salman Butt than Azhar Ali.

 

[msb314]

Sorry We have better prospects than a 32 yr old who avged what 30 with the bat

Thats not even bringing up the utter shame and embarrasment he caused 6 years ago and the fact he took with him 2 of our best bowlers ever No never

This.

Even someone like Shezhad who is mediocre himself is a much better option than this individual.

Despite being a Shehzad supporter myself - Salman Butt deserves his chance at redemption.

Not sure why the Spot Fixing Saga keeps getting brought up when Butt has served his time and punishment already.

I certainly don't buy the "traitor" and "national embarrasment" nonsense either - he got paid money to bowl a few no balls which obviously was illegal. End of.

His QEA performances obviously merit a comeback for him and it looks like he has the hunger to succeed and play well.

Hope he gets his chance soon.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

if u want to give chances, give it to Imam ulhaq, fakhar, usman instead of butt...

 

[moghul]

Its matter of principle and following the law.

Salman committed a crime, punished severely, completed his time now there is no reason he should not be treated as any other player.

Was an established test and ODI player and now after scoring a double ton in the final of country's premier tournament , he has his valid claim for the job he was terminated from.

At 32 Salman is not old, there are 42 YO and still "39 year old " in the team. Misbah started his real career at 32.

 

[Junaids]

Rather forgiving of Waqar - his own captain stabbed him in the back and took down two of his star pacers with him, nearly destroying his first tenure as coach but he's A-OK with seeing Butt return.

I happen to agree with you, but it shows just how comprehensively Salman Butt's social connections have ensured his return. Waqar was in many ways the primary victim of Salman Butt's crimes.

My views on "did the crime, done the time" are well known, and I won't bore everyone with them.

What I will say, is this.

Look at Pakistan's Future Tours program.

Mohammad Asif was most needed on the 2016 tours to England, New Zealand and Australia.

Salman Butt was most needed in Australia.

All that has happened is that their returns have been delayed and will take place where and when they are of the least assistance to the team!

 

[Hawkeye]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] for a moment if I accept your reasoning that Salman could've been decent in Aus, it doesn't matter anymore.

You and I both know he's a huge liability anywhere else. Wherever the ball moves, especially. For UAE, we have excellent players already.

He can't play outside Asia. So, can we now forget him for good? Azhar/Sami are very capable of doing well all over the globe.

Also mate you were missed here yesterday on the most interesting day of the match!

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] for a moment if I accept your reasoning that Salman could've been decent in Aus, it doesn't matter anymore.

You and I both know he's a huge liability anywhere else. Wherever the ball moves, especially. For UAE, we have excellent players already.

He can't play outside Asia. So, can we now forget him for good? Azhar/Sami are very capable of doing well all over the globe.

Also mate you were missed here yesterday on the most interesting day of the match!

I actually agree with you!

I have argued for years that Pakistan needs to stop picking players aged over 30 without a compelling argument, and should pick nobody over 35 under ANY circumstances.

Australia was the compelling argument for Salman Butt, and it has gone.

So skip a generation and go to Imam-ul-Haq.

If the selectors do that I will have no complaint. What would enrage me is if they tried to do what Australia did: clone veterans but in the process pass on to lower and lower quality elderly batsmen. I would be infuriated to see Fawad Alam in the team, for example, when they could pick Imam-ul-Haq.

The best thing about Mickey Arthur's tenure is that in just five months we have seen Sami Aslam and Babar Azam nail down starting positions and we have seen Mohammad Nawaz given every chance to.

I would accept Imam-ul-Haq in place of Salman Butt. I wouldn't tolerate another player over 30 though. Or Shan Masood. Or Khurram Manzoor.

The Asif case is a bit different. I think he's on his last legs, but he is so much better than the current right-arm quicks that he just has to be picked. Whereas there's not much between Salman Butt and Imam-ul-Haq.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Happy that Junaids dreams regarding Asif and Butt are going to be fulfilled soon.

35 % of his posts in last 2 years have been regarding Asif & Butt and supporting them.

They should be indebted.


They have done their time and its time for Re-integration.

 

[On_the_up]

I'd rather give Ahmed Shehzad a go than this guy.

To captain a national side and then take money for bowling certain type of balls to order is a hideous crime doesn't get forgotten by one good season.

Plus he wasn't that good in his heyday anyway.

 

[moghul]

You guys are living in a country ( its my country too ) where head of the state gets away with bigger crime and you're not letting it go for a sportsman who has completed his punishment. No law in the world punishes twice for the same crime.

 

[Justcrazy]

Salman Butt is a notch below Azhar and Sami as batsman. It would be foolish for the Pakistanis to drop them for the mediocrity called Butt, regardless of how he's performing.

Not in OD.

Nevertheless , he can bat at number 3.

Just give him some chance , if he cannot perform remove him.

 

[kingusama92]

Maybe he can make a case for ODIs.

There's no reason to bring him into the test squad.

 

[Napa]

You guys are living in a country ( its my country too ) where head of the state gets away with bigger crime and you're not letting it go for a sportsman who has completed his punishment. No law in the world punishes twice for the same crime.

I don't think he is being kept out of the team because he committed a crime. He is not in the team because his performance is not expected to be good enough.

 

[Haz95]

Not in OD.

Nevertheless , he can bat at number 3.

Just give him some chance , if he cannot perform remove him.

No doubt he was becoming a good ODI batsman but in this decade which is easily the lowest quality for batting, he simply cannot make the cut as at best he can match Aslam or Azhar in LOIs. It's a flat track bullys game now and he's not a good one at that...I mean just compare him to FTBs like Sharjeel, Sharma, Guptill, Hales etc - I'd rather have Khalid Latif in ODIs. A Pakistani batsman who would excel in the era would be Imran Nazir or currently someone like Umar Akmal.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

I don't think he is being kept out of the team because he committed a crime. He is not in the team because his performance is not expected to be good enough.

Finally someone spilled it out !!

Butt is as mediocre as they come !! I still remember he was literally a walking wicket in that 2010 summer English. Heck Yasir Hameed and Imran Farhat were looking far better than him all throughout that season !!

 

[Slog]

Nowhere else would a guy with a career average of 30 or so be hyped so much

 

[AlphaFighter]

Didn't Salman Butt in his legal defence use the lame excuse that if Waqar who was fined and censured by the Justice Qayyum commission could be allowed to coach, he shouldn't be punished for Spot Fixing.

It was Waqar's testimony in front of the ICC tribunal which sealed Butt's fate where he acknowledged that Salman Butt told him that Asif and Amir overstepped on his instructions.

 

[Mainul]

I agree with Waqar.But Butt needs to be waiting for some more time.Sami and Azhar are doing well and needs to be persisted with.Butt can be an option in ODIS if Sharjeel fails.

 

[Mainul]

Finally someone spilled it out !!

Butt is as mediocre as they come !! I still remember he was literally a walking wicket in that 2010 summer English. Heck Yasir Hameed and Imran Farhat were looking far better than him all throughout that season !!

Pakistan wasted a talent in Yasir Hameed.He was a very fine batsman.Selectors were too harsh over his off form.He was 10 times better than Hafeez.

 

[Jan Sher]

Salman Butt shouldn't be selected for limited overs cricket, because of his poor S/R.

By the way, why this genius can't see Fakhar Zaman's performances? Why not call for his selection instead? This guy seems really biased.

 

[moghul]

This guy has scored 8 ODI centuries including 3 against India in India and one in front of 100000 people at Eden Garden Kalcutta when he was only 20, not an ordinary Pakistani batsman. I hate him personally what he did but as a cricketer he deserves to make a come back after showing his great form at the moment.

 

[omorst7]

Cheated with the nation!! And keep lying for years!! Try to fool everyone as long as he could!! only accept his crime when there was no way!!! I personally feel his continuous denial is bigger crime than his spot fixing crime!! Beside all this he is not an exceptional talent or performer!! Why why this cheat has so many supporter!!! Why somany want to see him iien national color again!!!
He should never be selected for national team again!!!

 

[Pakistanian]

He should have the right to have a chance to return, he should only make the team if he's good enough.

 

[Idrees1990]

No!

Give someone else a chance, and I say the same for Asif too.

I really don't want either of them back in the side again. Their influence is far bigger than some may think.

And it's ok for Amir to be back and getting full support of everyone. Amir's age doesn't make him less innocent. We should stop double standards. If they can't play based on this allegation then kick Amir out too.

 

[Metron]

And it's ok for Amir to be back and getting full support of everyone. Amir's age doesn't make him less innocent. We should stop double standards. If they can't play based on this allegation then kick Amir out too.

You mean less guilty. and yes by all accounts Amir was less guilty. Everyone in the cricketing world knows it and anyone with half a legal mind would know it. Age does matter and so does the background of the accused in determining the guilt. That's why we have juvenile justice system. Butt infact solicited criminal acts from his junior. He should not be allowed back in cricket ever. and oh yes, Amir confessed and Butt kept lying and lying.

 

[Black Zero]

I actually agree with you!

I have argued for years that Pakistan needs to stop picking players aged over 30 without a compelling argument, and should pick nobody over 35 under ANY circumstances.

Australia was the compelling argument for Salman Butt, and it has gone.

So skip a generation and go to Imam-ul-Haq.

If the selectors do that I will have no complaint. What would enrage me is if they tried to do what Australia did: clone veterans but in the process pass on to lower and lower quality elderly batsmen. I would be infuriated to see Fawad Alam in the team, for example, when they could pick Imam-ul-Haq.

The best thing about Mickey Arthur's tenure is that in just five months we have seen Sami Aslam and Babar Azam nail down starting positions and we have seen Mohammad Nawaz given every chance to.

I would accept Imam-ul-Haq in place of Salman Butt. I wouldn't tolerate another player over 30 though. Or Shan Masood. Or Khurram Manzoor.

The Asif case is a bit different. I think he's on his last legs, but he is so much better than the current right-arm quicks that he just has to be picked. Whereas there's not much between Salman Butt and Imam-ul-Haq.

Childish wishful thinking--
If you want to try young players, sure, but definitely not in-place of a proven international player.

- Pakistani domestic performance is extremely crude barometer, which can only provide indicators for match fitness and domestic-batting form and nothing else.

You would need to try 10 Imam-ul-Haqs to get one internationally (technically and mentally) proven player. And, one can surely do this in parallel but not in-his-place.

We have lost to WI, NZL and Aus with virtually same batsmen and logic dictates that selectors veto Misbah and select the correct players.(now, this is also a wishful thinking as Misbah will gladly give his life but wont change any batsman)

 

[pakistan cricket fan]

Cheated with the nation!! And keep lying for years!! Try to fool everyone as long as he could!! only accept his crime when there was no way!!! I personally feel his continuous denial is bigger crime than his spot fixing crime!! Beside all this he is not an exceptional talent or performer!! Why why this cheat has so many supporter!!! Why somany want to see him iien national color again!!!
He should never be selected for national team again!!!

I agree with you 100%

 

[DRsohail]

I happen to agree with you, but it shows just how comprehensively Salman Butt's social connections have ensured his return. Waqar was in many ways the primary victim of Salman Butt's crimes.

My views on "did the crime, done the time" are well known, and I won't bore everyone with them.

What I will say, is this.

Look at Pakistan's Future Tours program.

Mohammad Asif was most needed on the 2016 tours to England, New Zealand and Australia.

Salman Butt was most needed in Australia.

All that has happened is that their returns have been delayed and will take place where and when they are of the least assistance to the team!

if salman butt perform in list a..he has a chance in loi as azhar is utter failure..

 

[Black Zero]

I agree with you 100%

100% :thumbsdown disagree with this twisted morality.

 

[Sherlock]

And it's ok for Amir to be back and getting full support of everyone. Amir's age doesn't make him less innocent. We should stop double standards. If they can't play based on this allegation then kick Amir out too.

I've already given my view as to why Amir, and not the other deserve more leeway, an NO, it's got nothing to do with talent. There's no double standards here.

The double standards are where Waqar/Wasim and Mushy were given a clean chit when they were fixing.

 

[pakistan cricket fan]

100% :thumbsdown disagree with this twisted morality.

He was not a good player to begin with we did not mis his batting at all, plus with spot fixing history no we dont need him.

 

[sam_ahm]

I have seen thousands of posts here on Pakpassion about how a certain youngster is the next world beater and they simply do not perform on international stage. So I will surely not believe that there are thousands of young guns waiting to set the stage on fire.

On form Salman Butt and Kamran Akmal should be selected for Australia ODIs. At least Kamran who scored another century today.

On another note, and by absolutely no means am I saying what Salman did is even a percent correct, it is detesting, but please, it is not Match Fixing or selling his nation, as mentioned in another post above, it is an illegal offence wherein he asked to bowled no balls (gave away 3 runs to the opposition) to make some money.

Many players forcefully keep their place in the side when they are not performing, costing the nation far more than 3 no balls, many players play for themselves and score a meaningless 50 while the team loses, doing greater damage to the nation. Is that not keeping your interests ahead of the nation / team? Is that not disrespect / disloyalty towards nation?

 

[Black Zero]

He was not a good player to begin with we did not mis his batting at all, plus with spot fixing history no we dont need him.

He is a GREAT player.

Two (2) centuries as an opener in Australia ( Sydney and Hobart) against McGrath/Warne

We need him if we want to have some chances at winning/drawing any match.

Wasim/Waqar/Inzi/Mushy etc are also not without history.

 

[Metron]

I have seen thousands of posts here on Pakpassion about how a certain youngster is the next world beater and they simply do not perform on international stage. So I will surely not believe that there are thousands of young guns waiting to set the stage on fire.

On form Salman Butt and Kamran Akmal should be selected for Australia ODIs. At least Kamran who scored another century today.

On another note, and by absolutely no means am I saying what Salman did is even a percent correct, it is detesting, but please, it is not Match Fixing or selling his nation, as mentioned in another post above, it is an illegal offence wherein he asked to bowled no balls (gave away 3 runs to the opposition) to make some money.

Many players forcefully keep their place in the side when they are not performing, costing the nation far more than 3 no balls, many players play for themselves and score a meaningless 50 while the team loses, doing greater damage to the nation. Is that not keeping your interests ahead of the nation / team? Is that not disrespect / disloyalty towards nation?

Wow that's some justification! Underperforming on your own is one thing but forcing others to do the same is altogether another. And plz don't say spot fixing is any less vile than match fixing. You sold your integrity for a few dollars, it doesn't matter how much impact it had.

People who overstay in teams still have integrity, they do not deliberately under perform.
Salman Butt almost destroyed Amir's career, I would not prefer him to be in the same dressing room as Amir.

 

[sam_ahm]

Wow that's some justification! Underperforming on your own is one thing but forcing others to do the same is altogether another. And plz don't say spot fixing is any less vile than match fixing. You sold your integrity for a few dollars, it doesn't matter how much impact it had.

People who overstay in teams still have integrity, they do not deliberately under perform.
Salman Butt almost destroyed Amir's career, I would not prefer him to be in the same dressing room as Amir.

I'm not justifying, I'm saying it is not as bad as Match Fixing or 'selling your nation', what he did was still terribly wrong and he has got punished for that.

Had he done match fixing, he would have got a life ban, since his crime was less severe he got 5 years of ban, so now it's time people move on.

w.r.t people playing selfish knocks or overstaying in the team, or forcing their way into the team by recommendations, I personally consider all that to be acts of "Corruption", "Selfishness" and in a way "Cheating the nation".

 

[sam_ahm]

I can also never buy the argument that Salman forced Aamer and Asif into it, they both were mature enough to do it willingly. Had they been so clean they could have reported it to the Manager, Coach, Players, ASCU, anybody, it wasn't so difficult.

Aamer early confession was also because he knew very well that by confession, given his young age, he will be able to resume his career at some point in future, by denying, he'll face the wrath of fans even more. So it was a smart decision by Aamer rather than a remorseful one... and yes, he did the right thing, the smart thing.

 

[Metron]

I can also never buy the argument that Salman forced Aamer and Asif into it, they both were mature enough to do it willingly. Had they been so clean they could have reported it to the Manager, Coach, Players, ASCU, anybody, it wasn't so difficult.

Aamer early confession was also because he knew very well that by confession, given his young age, he will be able to resume his career at some point in future, by denying, he'll face the wrath of fans even more. So it was a smart decision by Aamer rather than a remorseful one... and yes, he did the right thing, the smart thing.

You are recycling all stuff. The lawyers and the judges and all the cricket officials had much detailed view of the incident than we would ever get. I don't think all of them would make such a mistake.

No one said Amir was clean in this incident, he did get punished for it. Salman has been mostly remorseless all this while.

 

[Abdullah719]

You are recycling all stuff. The lawyers and the judges and all the cricket officials had much detailed view of the incident than we would ever get. I don't think all of them would make such a mistake.

No one said Amir was clean in this incident, he did get punished for it. Salman has been mostly remorseless all this while.

People can make the argument that Salman Butt shouldn't return for whatever reason but this part is untrue. He's said quite often that he regrets what he did and has given lectures against corruption etc.

Also, there is a difference between match-fixing and spot-fixing.

 

[Metron]

People can make the argument that Salman Butt shouldn't return for whatever reason but this part is untrue. He's said quite often that he regrets what he did and has given lectures against corruption etc.

Also, there is a difference between match-fixing and spot-fixing.

Let's disagree on the match fixing and spot-fixing part. My simplest argument against Butt was that he induced others into fixing. He was a willful contagion of corruption, he should not be allowed back in cricket.

 

[Abdullah719]

Let's disagree on the match fixing and spot-fixing part. My simplest argument against Butt was that he induced others into fixing. He was a willful contagion of corruption, he should not be allowed back in cricket.

When I say that there's a difference between match-fixing and spot-fixing, I'm not talking about people's views in relation to the seriousness of the crime. I'm talking about the factual difference. Match-fixing relates to conspiring to lose a match while spot-fixing is different.

No problems with the argument against Butt, everyone has their opinions.

 

[Metron]

When I say that there's a difference between match-fixing and spot-fixing, I'm not talking about people's views in relation to the seriousness of the crime. I'm talking about the factual difference. Match-fixing relates to conspiring to lose a match while spot-fixing is different.

No problems with the argument against Butt, everyone has their opinions.

I never said anything about factual difference between spot fixing and match fixing. But only that are at par as far as corruption goes! People have gotten life bans for spot fixing, Butt escaped with much lighter ban!

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Butt would be valuable experience but can he maintain high SR. In his era 72SR was acceptable but now its very sub par. He needs a season in domestics where his SR is above 80. We need to be aiming for 350-400 every match

 

[Slog]

Rather forgiving of Waqar - his own captain stabbed him in the back and took down two of his star pacers with him, nearly destroying his first tenure as coach but he's A-OK with seeing Butt return.

Well I guess he is not being selfish

Don't agree with it but if his reason for not wanting to butt return was him almost destroying his coaching tenure then the reasons would be vindictive or selfish rather than based on any morals.

It's kind of interesting though. I am a fan of Waqar and I make no attempt to hide it. And while I may interpret some aspects in his favor I don't totally ignore facts or make them up and there is a basis for whatever I state.

However you and many others try to portray yourself as paragon on neutrality and claim to have no bias and tell it like it is. But not once. I repeat not once have I ever seen the you and others even take into account or give even passing acknowledgement to the fact that Waqars tenures were almost wrecked multiple times by extenuating circumstances outside his control and on short notice. Banning of three players on a big tour and before World Cup 2011. Banning of Ajmal and Hafeez throwing the whole team strategy for tests and WC15 down the toilet. And despite this the recovery was respectable.

Ofcourse magically Misbah will be given all credit and in one days in 2010-2011 Afridi will be given all credit....

 

[Idrees1990]

You mean less guilty. and yes by all accounts Amir was less guilty. Everyone in the cricketing world knows it and anyone with half a legal mind would know it. Age does matter and so does the background of the accused in determining the guilt. That's why we have juvenile justice system. Butt infact solicited criminal acts from his junior. He should not be allowed back in cricket ever. and oh yes, Amir confessed and Butt kept lying and lying.

Well in that case Asif is a saint compare to these two if we are comparing who is less guilty because they didn't have any evidence on him unlike (juvenile) amir and salman butt who had texts/money evidence. Zero evidence against him. The jury convicted him based on what others said without any hard evidence. Based on he said/she said. Salman butt was a ring leader but he served almost 6 year ban plus jail sentence. They should be allowed back. You can't seriously tell me amir and Asif wouldnt have ran through this Australian lineup. Amir will only get better with new ball support.

 

[Junaids]

You mean less guilty. and yes by all accounts Amir was less guilty. Everyone in the cricketing world knows it and anyone with half a legal mind would know it. Age does matter and so does the background of the accused in determining the guilt. That's why we have juvenile justice system. Butt infact solicited criminal acts from his junior. He should not be allowed back in cricket ever. and oh yes, Amir confessed and Butt kept lying and lying.

This is completely untrue.

I refer you to page 86 of the ICC Tribunal Report, final paragraph (233).

The ICC Tribunal found that the least guilty of the three players was Mohammad Asif. In their words "we accept......Mr Asif's lesser involvement in the fix.......the absence of any reward received by him".

Mohammad Amir got the same fixed 5 year ban as the other 2. Asif and Butt only got extra years of a suspended (inactive) sentence because Mohammad Amir claimed to be only 18 years old. A claim which is now also widely viewed to be creative accounting.

And for the record, Amir persisted in claiming to be Not Guilty until after he had been found guilty and sentenced by the ICC. Amir only pleaded Guilty in his criminal trial.

Which may well prove to have been a bad move by Amir, since Asif and Butt's convictions are currently being reviewed in the UK by the Criminal Cases Review Commission, and seem certain to be overturned.

 

[Junaids]

Childish wishful thinking--
If you want to try young players, sure, but definitely not in-place of a proven international player.

- Pakistani domestic performance is extremely crude barometer, which can only provide indicators for match fitness and domestic-batting form and nothing else.

You would need to try 10 Imam-ul-Haqs to get one internationally (technically and mentally) proven player. And, one can surely do this in parallel but not in-his-place.

We have lost to WI, NZL and Aus with virtually same batsmen and logic dictates that selectors veto Misbah and select the correct players.(now, this is also a wishful thinking as Misbah will gladly give his life but wont change any batsman)

This thread needs to be saved for posterity.

Have you seen what has just happened?

I have said that I would accept Imam-ul-Haq instead of Salman Butt.

And I have been chided for that!

 

[Junaids]

I never said anything about factual difference between spot fixing and match fixing. But only that are at par as far as corruption goes! People have gotten life bans for spot fixing, Butt escaped with much lighter ban!

You really need to buy and read "Bookie Gambler Fixer Spy" by Ed Hawkins, or just to read the ICC Tribunal Report.

These three players got into what they (wrongly) thought was a victimless crime because two of them were jealous of the wealth that a large part of the team was raking in from doing actual matchfixing in two different matchfixing cliques.

That was actually the prosecution argument in court. That Amir and Butt were sick of working their, pardon the pun, butts off trying to win matches for Pakistan, only for their teammates to lose those matches for money.

It was never suggested either in court or at the ICC trial that Amir, Asif and Butt were the only fixers in the Pakistan dressing room.

The others got away with it on the basis of no longer being in the places (notably Sri Lanka and Australia) were prior fixes took place and could be prosecuted. And the ICC was happy with its three high profile scalps.

 

[Metron]

You really need to buy and read "Bookie Gambler Fixer Spy" by Ed Hawkins, or just to read the ICC Tribunal Report.

These three players got into what they (wrongly) thought was a victimless crime because two of them were jealous of the wealth that a large part of the team was raking in from doing actual matchfixing in two different matchfixing cliques.

That was actually the prosecution argument in court. That Amir and Butt were sick of working their, pardon the pun, butts off trying to win matches for Pakistan, only for their teammates to lose those matches for money.

It was never suggested either in court or at the ICC trial that Amir, Asif and Butt were the only fixers in the Pakistan dressing room.

The others got away with it on the basis of no longer being in the places (notably Sri Lanka and Australia) were prior fixes took place and could be prosecuted. And the ICC was happy with its three high profile scalps.

I might be wrong about somethings you clarified in other posts.

But to say that because others did it, so their crime is less heinous. That's absurd.
As for the level of guilt, I would simply not level Salman Butt into cricket at any level because his crime was inducing other young players to fixing. That is unpardonable. Atleast Salman Butt thoroughly deserved a life ban.

I think Amir's poor background saved all 3 of them from life bans!